communications erector and one of the copy editors of this book students for liberty.org is the upside. . .

40% of all american voters are independent. more than republicans are democrat. which to me means they are dissatisfied with the system and the two parties, and i've been covering politics for a long time and i've been wanting to address this. i've been wanting to get at what are these voters looking for, who are these voters, what do they care about, what do they want, and how? because i don't think anyone could say that we are becoming fairly dysfunctional. so, this largest voting bloc in the nation had determined the outcome of every election since world war ii that the book is named for. they are tired of being ignored and unrepresentative and not having to say how politics and

government is run, and i began the book with thomas kane and end of the book with thomas paine not to be too grandiose and someone accused me of using a new gingrich word last night, but comes at the sort of thomas paine book but lifted the revolution was a call to how to be governed by the people, and i think we need to return to that. i don't think we are really there right now, so i hope and some small way to also light a fire under the people and get them going and get them motivated >> host: phyllis why should we be worried about this, why is this a problem? >> guest: our system is fundamentally undemocratic and a number of ways. one of the ways is closed primary. so in half the states in the

country, 40% of all the voters can't participate in the primary, and so they had no say in who gets nominated, and as a result, we get more and more extreme candidates on both ends of the spectrum who are nominated by the party activists and that is getting elected to congress coupled with the way congressional districts are drawn and that is a problem which is leaving out the middle. the middle is disappearing in congress. centrists are totally disappearing. and so you have the far left and the far right unable to cut deals, unable to govern which is why i think the congress with the 9% approval rating right now. >> mauney indication as while you bring both sides of the problem i sense that you blame one side more than the other is that a fair reading and that is

the republican side. >> guest: i think you're right. i would say i set out to blame both sides equally. when i started reporting the books and writing the books i felt those parties had moved more to the extreme and had been ignoring the the center. but i think in reporting the book, and of course i was reporting the book for the last two years the tea party had sort of been rising during that time and making its voice heard so you had some very spectacular prominent primary elections in 2010. for example in delaware where mike castle was challenged by the questionably qualified candidate. mike castle who had been governor of wisconsin very popular in the state's and you have republicans say in, being

quoted mostly tea party people saying i don't care if mike castle loos is i don't want him in congress come he's not the kind of republican we want and he's sort of cleansing the this centric democrat excuse me, the centric republicans that are, you know, they call them republican name only. the republicans to that, then you have the election in alaska where we sum rakowski the setting a senator is challenged by the tea party, jim demint, a member of her own party sitting raised money against her, the tea party candidates. she lost that primary and she said forget this and she ran up the candidate and she won. more than 50% of all voters and alaska are registered independent. so why do think that there would be more of a cleansing and more of a purity test on the republican side. i think the republicans have moved away to the right. i think the recent birth control

debacle 90% of all women use birth control, catholic women and women of every other state, i think this is the kind of social right wing effort to inject religion into the public sphere independent voters don't like, and i think the economy is the big problem, you know, the deficit is the big problem, there are other issues but we have moved past issues like whether gay people should be able to get married or abortion should be a private choice. on the democratic sightings that democrats have a big swing to the left in the 1970's when george mcgovern ran for president, and i think they have their realignment. i think bill clinton was more of a centrist president, not all the left democrats like him, but

the standard before barack obama, and so i do think it is tough for the centrist democrats but it's more question they tell them to go sit in the corner and they told them then get out of the party. that is my read on it. blanche lincoln, the moderate to conservative was challenged by unions last time around and lost her primary, democratic senator from arkansas. but for the most part i think the republicans move to alj more of a litmus test. >> host: why do you think it is? is it psychological in some way or ideological or about discipline or about the attitude towards having political power, what is it do you think? >> i think that's a good question. i think it has been a strategy that the his worked for in

coalescing and energizing the base. increasingly i think the republican party has to come, and i quote tom davis, a former moderate republican congressman from northern virginia saying much the same thing. the republican party is become a part of older white males of the voters. and they are not a party especially with the birth that tends to appeal to the women as much. they don't appeal to minorities. i fink the hispanic vote very rapidly growing vote and a very important swing vote i think was the behavior they could kiss the hispanic vote goodbye and the election even if they pick someone like marco rubio to be the vice presidential candidate in florida, the senator. even if they pick him i think they may win some hispanic votes but i think that the hispanics are very upset with their

rhetoric, immigration and what's going on in the southwest. and in although southwestern states, and arizona some of the southwestern states are topping 50% of the entire state populations of this is not a trivial voting bloc at all. so i think it was a ploy to plea of the debate but i think it's a mistake if they want to be a majority national party. >> host: let's talk about the book's structure and the work you did in assembling the book. just describe how you organize the book and the work you did to put it together. >> guest: yeah, first of all the most important thing to me was finding independent voters that they were the bedrock i wanted to describe who they

were, i wanted people to hear their voices, so that was critical to be finding the independent voters and i settled on the worst swing states i would focus on. the book talks about more than that. there's a chapter on congress and the presidency and various other things that there are forcing states, colorado, ohio, virginia and new hampshire that i think are the key swing states in different regions of the country. and so i began to reach out to independent voters in that state and i got the voter lists from the secretaries of state and register with the voters and call people on the phone at 7:00 at night and said -- >> host: you call people cold. >> guest: called people cold. public information to register unaffiliated is what most states call it. >> host: by the way we should tell people that in many states you can't get that information because you don't have to enroll by party. how many states?

>> guest: about half. >> host: in the state's people have to -- >> guest: no, actually in colorado and new hampshire i can find the unaffiliated voters. in virginia and ohio people don't register that party and use other ways to reach out to the independent voters. but i would call people on the phone and i would say i'm a reporter and i'm working on a book for independent voters and in about 80% of the cases they were happy to talk with me, they were happy someone cared, someone wanted to hear what they thought about the political system, and by and large when this came up i did in each and recently with the deputy bureau chief of "the new york times" and he and some others said the voters don't know much, they are not informed and i didn't find that to be true at all. i find that independent voters may be slightly more disengaged with that because it's the

chicken or the egg that is because they are so fed up with the party system and the way it's practiced. that is one way i did focus groups in all four states. i reached out to people to the groups like the new labels and the independent voting. they hooked me up with some of their voters in distant states and -- >> host: you just assembled these yourself? >> guest: it was political consultants had tried to get a great deal of money to assemble the focus groups so i was a neophyte doing this and was a lot of work and very challenging. and then i traveled to the states a few times and i set about the work of meeting these voters and finding out what they think. >> host: how many people do you think you talked to? >> guest: my goodness. i also interviewed in addition to the voters of course i interviewed elected officials and activists and all kinds of different people. i mean, certainly at least 500. >> guest: >> host: that's a pretty good

sample size. let's get to the typologies of the independent voters. you have the success of chapters on these states and within each of the state's you sort of identify a group, and the first in in many ways i think the most interesting to people the npr republicans who you associate with new hampshire but of course are everywhere who are the republicans? >> guest: the npr republicans are the people that we used to think about as the rockefeller republicans coming and i thought it was time for some of these names to be freshened up. obviously a nelson rockefeller has been gone for quite awhile, so the npr republicans, there are a lot of them in new england but they are all over the country as well. they tend to be more affluent, older, socially moderate, fiscally conservative republicans. they would be appalled by this birth control discussion and

think abortion is a personal choice. they don't get into the socialist cuba they are fiscally conservative. they were turned off during the bush years by the mismanagement of government by the growth of government under the republican congress that president by the iraq war to read some of them voted for barack obama in 2008. but they didn't like the health care reform from the didn't like the growth of government and they are very much up for grabs this time around, and i would have said that mitt romney would be the perfect candidate to appeal to these npr republicans. i'm not sure now come and by the time who knows where things will stand. i will say that the npr republicans are the fund-raisers but there are plenty of them out there and they've been out of office because of the move to the right and.

>> host: did you hear from them sadness or anchor more? >> guest: both. certainly in new hampshire i talked to a number of former and current state legislators in the republican category. some have lost primaries driven of the legislature and some were still in their trying to fight and were marginalized by the more conservative republican leadership in new hampshire state for as richard so they felt the party had been sort of taken over and there wasn't room for that. >> host: are the largest of the four groups? >> guest: not by a longshot. note. >> host: let's get to the others starting now. >> host: you have the starbucks moms and dads and locate them in virginia. >> guest: that i think is the largest starbucks moms and dads. they are the real power voters and that these leaders of the election. these would be suburban moms and

dads and people in the suburbs 50%, more than 50% of all americans now live in suburbs or excerpts only in 1980 it was 30% since growing rapidly and the suburbs are very racially diverse and increasingly so and they care about the economy number one to care about education issues they care about keeping the country safe, and the totally sworn in 2006 they voted for the democrats. in 2008 and they voted for barack obama, but in 2010, i think probably turned off of it by the health care reform growth of government concerned about the economy. this one almost 20 points for the republicans. so, they -- >> host: some stayed home also

because the turnout was lower? >> guest: that's right and a turn out among independents was lower in 2010. and they are up for grabs this time around. >> host: to distinguish this group from the republicans have the npr republicans are enrolled and these people are probably enrolled and unaffiliated? >> guest: they are a mixture i would say of republicans and independents and a number of them have left the republican party and have become independent because of their frustration in the social agenda the need to be an extra. the starbucks moms and dads would be independent but they might also be center right republicans and center-left democrats. it's a little tricky because the book is called the swing vote and i am focusing on independent voters, and that is mostly white talk to. but there are also registered

democrats and republicans to swing quite a bit, too. they just haven't changed to registration or maybe they want to be able to vote in primaries. >> host: 20% of democrats across the country call themselves conservative and something most people might not know. we shall also point out very quickly that we are using the word unaffiliated an independent energy change. there are more acceptable but in most states the registration category is unaffiliated or not enrolled. >> host: interesting. third group, younger people. >> guest: younger people, the facebook generation. people under 35. they are registered in the highest percentage as independent as any other age group. now, they voted big time for barack obama in 2008 but i think

it is a question for not to the republicans are thinking of nominating him, not so much will they vote republican this time around but will they vote at all? it's very hard to get these young voters to turn out warehouse loading over 60 turnout in the highest percentage in the voters under 30 turnout in the lowest percentage. barack obama energized them but sort of raised their hopes as with a lot of the independent voters that voted with them that he was going to be post partisan, he was going to work with the other side if he is going to get things done in a new way that he was not going to let the lobbyists come to the white house instead they come to the starbucks a block from the white house, so i think they are a little bit turned off by what they perceive to be the lack of change, and they are concerned about the economy. the had student loan debt and jobs and they told me the -- if you talk to a group like rock the vote which is a liberal

organizing group of, they will tell you young people are liberal. they will just tell you that. they are certainly a group of conservative young people who would be hardcore republicans they tell you the majority of young people are liberal. what i found is if the republicans gave them the lead to vote for them, if there was a republican candidate who didn't stress the social issues because of the sleek young people under 35 had moved on from the debate about gay marriage or abortion or this kind of stuff. they are in a different place on that. they can be more fiscally conservative. they are concerned. >> host: libertarian governor it? >> guest: they are. that's where the like ron paul and the because ron paul wants to legalize drugs and that is quite dismissing of them. i think they like ron paul for his leaves and to then be a truth teller.

they tell me this over and over we want a politician that tells us straight, we don't want the same from the politicians. >> host: interesting. and the fourth group, a group that you base in ohio. >> guest: the america first democrat would be a ronald reagan democrat. these would be the midwest would be a place you can find a lot of these for example in massachusetts that's who's got brown got elected to the senate. there's a lot of independent voters in massachusetts and it's a liberal reputation. >> host: there are more than democrats, right? >> guest: yes, there are. these would tend to be lower middle class manufacturing base and we policemen, firemen come even teachers can be america

first democrats in the midwest, and they are more socially conservative than probably any of the other group. then you're very concerned about the loss of the manufacturing jobs. they had been hit hard. for example in ohio very hard by outsourcing the loss of manufacturing jobs, and i think barack obama didn't carry this group in 2008, but i think he sees them and wants to add them to the coalition in 2012 so i think some of his language about tax cuts makes the companies that create jobs here not allowing the companies to write off their expenses when they move the jobs overseas and they are designed to appeal to the group. i do think some of the things the republicans have done in

states like ohio and wisconsin for the anti-union legislation have turned off this group, and so i think this purpose more in play than it would have been if the republican governors didn't overreach. >> host: penalty scoop together and the two parties as they now exist, what do the democrats -- what would the democrats need to do to win the allegiance of these groups and would doing these things necessarily of the existing democratic base and as you see it? >> guest: well, i think to tell you the truth, both of the democrats and republicans could be the same thing to when this group. and i think to a word to a certain extent turn off both of their bases but i think that is what we need. that is the kind of change and shakeup that we need. what they want are the two

parties to work together. they want to see some action. i get the ready to watch a piece in the atlantic about the fact we may see the legislation back in the next eight months of the congress in session. people realize the congress isn't doing its job. independent voters said to me listen, i don't get paid if i don't do my job. the label is trying to work in this and they have a piece of legislation no budget, no pay and the congress passed a budget and don't pay the members of congress if they don't pass a budget. if they want to see them work together, they want action on the deficit. the arkansas and about the deficit and concern about the economy, and i think they understand that the two of them go together and the day will come very soon when we have got to deal with the deficit and this incredible weight hanging

over our head. they want to make sure the country remains safe, but they also i think are happy that we are getting all of our foreign entanglements because i think they felt we have got problems here at home that we need to be addressing. they would like to see less money in politics, they would like to see the political leaders being more responsive. i do think they are concerned about fairness as it relates to the tax code and to the benefit the wealthy and the eletes get they don't feel like they are getting. i don't think these are all issues that they would like to see the congress and the president address. >> host: let's talk about conagra's and the president or the presidency. so, why do you think it's become such a dead end? is it the money, is an ideology,

is the kind of partisanship the started? it's all of those things of course but what is the main thing to you? >> guest: i don't think there's one main thing. i think that you've hit all of them. my first book was about the republican revolution, and i wrote about new gingrich in that book and i've written about him recently, and i think it is fair to say that he is the sort of architect of the congress. it's true that the democrats were when they were in control for 50 years of congress they were a bit dismissive to republicans to sit in a corner and be quiet under the nuclear war he took it to a whole nother level and he's all the way he could win with the republicans was to demonize the democrats.

it wasn't enough to save their ideas were wrong or to say we have a better idea. they were terrible people who wanted to wreck the country, so that escalated the - become the hard feelings, the inability to work together and his constant drum beat that the government is bad, inefficient, bad, terrible, i think it has sunk and in a way that the negative campaign commercials sink in and i think now the american public has gotten onto the bandwagon about government, and there are a lot of things that inefficient about, about government but it's obviously very necessary to make it work better, so i think the - partisanship, the isolation, the congressional schedule which sounds like kind of a minor

thing but, you know, members of congress now lie in on tuesday afternoon for the first vote they fly off on thursday night so they can be some reason for holding the unions are campaigning and the never eat dinner together or socialize together. i live next door to a former member of congress who was a democrat and i would mention a republican and he didn't even know who he was. if they are not on the committee with someone they don't know the other side and if you don't, if there is no trust if you don't develop relationships. the leadership is a basic problem. mark warner the senator from virginia, the moderate democrat from virginia was involved in a gang of six deficit reduction efforts over the past years with saxby chambliss of virginia and

the copperhead speak in by the leadership who was not remotely interested in this bipartisan effort because it didn't fit the talking point. it didn't fit we are going to make the other side look bad and we are not coming to work together and we are going to fight for every advantage. rick santorum in a recent republican debate for something like the explanting of the vote, he said the politics of team sports. in other words he had to go along with the leadership because the leadership wanted the vote and he was part of that team. >> host: he was talking about no child left behind. >> guest: that is the mind set on capitol hill and it is largely male. it is a majority of men and they have this voice mentality. there are winners and losers. br going to beat their brains out and that is the mind set, not that we are going to work

together and try to get something done. >> host: how about money? >> guest: monday is a difficult and intractable problem. i thought that mccain-feingold was a good idea, the campaign finance reform, and it's proven to maybe not be so good in terms of unintended consequences and then we have the supreme court decision and i think there's no doubt that money affects outcomes on capitol hill. money buys access and, you know, tweaks in the tax code. it's a lot easier to put in the tax loophole of benefits for the corporate entity than it is a government program and there is a lot of that that has been going on. and i talked with former congressman about this and he said to me money isn't just the mother's milk of politics it is the yogurt and cottage cheese,

too. it controls everything. i don't know how we deal with this without a constitutional amendment. money always finds a way. one of the systems i have in my book is that i say that independent voters to make small contributions. 50-dollar contributions to the candidates they liked or independent candidates they think are doing the right thing or trying to work together coming up with solutions if you think about 40% of the electorate making the small contributions, that could actually be a lot of money and of course barack obama raised a lot of money in the contributions. >> guest: but it's not just campaign its money spent lobbying. i remember during the health care i think they spent nearly a billion dollars lobbying for or against the health care bill against the different elements for the inclusion of different elements. >> host: >> guest: sin with wall street reform.

>> host: a bigger problem in a way. >> guest: and i really have to say i'm not sure how you deal with that. it's a first amendment right. i don't know how you deal with that. except that voters -- members care about money because they want it to pay for the campaigns and its the means to an end. mostly they care about the vote comes of the money is just a way to get the vote through advertising, so if the voters showed up and made their voices heard i like to believe me begin make a difference or they another candidates. i like to think they can make a difference. >> guest: some of the people on both parties who you think are admirable and you mentioned mark warner, you have a long section in the book you talk with mark warner, so he is obviously one, talk about who you think is?

>> guest: will obviously there's olympia snowe and susan collins from maine who are centrists republicans who -- >> host: what have they actually done to try -- >> guest: cheers the thing to tell you the truth. i think they've been kind of terrified, susan collins, excuse me, olympia snowe is running for the election this year and i think they've been kind of cow into -- she will undoubtedly have a tea party challenge. >> host: the tea party. >> guest: so it has had a lot of the moderate republicans, someone like senator lugar from indiana, another person especially in the area of foreign affairs has a long history working in a bipartisan way. >> host: obama's old friend. >> guest: even orrin hatch from utah who is nobody's

moderate terrified of the tea party challenge. estimate he's definitely a conservative, very fiscally conservative and class of '94 in the house and took some time off and became a senator from oklahoma shoes and the gang of six and i think i have always found him a republican but police found him to be very honest, very straightforward, he works in a gang of six he is a good relationship with barack obama and respect him and he's always tried to be honest and work on the deficit and he cares a lot about deficit reduction he's not running next time hokies announced he's not running for reelection post and

he was retiring. >> guest: that's right. so he is free to see and do what he wants. let's get a handle little bit and talk about solutions to this problem because they're hard to come by it's a little brief but i don't really blame you because it's just hard to figure of what the heck to do about this. let's talk about to categories of solutions. the first one that occurs to most people when they think about our deadlock system is they think about a third party candidacy from the center. you devote some time in your book to that. do you think that's the solution or could such a person actually win? >> guest: those are two separate questions. can they win and -- >> guest: >> host: let me ask it that

way. >> guest: i will say and we are going to hear more about an independent challenge this year as this group of americans gets going. they've raised $20 million they have the goal beyond the ballot in all 50 states. what they're doing is collecting signatures and getting on the ballot without a candidate right now just for a blank spot on the ballot. there will be a blank spot because its alphabetical they will be the first on the ballot probably coming and we don't know yet who the candidate is going to be. >> host: do you have any idea what kind of person it might be? can you talk about the hypothetical as? >> guest: i've heard names and i'm not saying they would be interested, but condoleezza rice or general petraeus or certainly jon huntsman is the kind of candidate - would be in this space. he says he has no interest in running for a third-party candidate, not sure who they are

going to approach. it's supposed to be in the voter can go online and nominee, but of course you can't nominate a candidate who is completely unwilling to produce a date and go along with it. so they've got to find someone who is willing to do this. the independent voters that i've talked with they were very divided. there was no unanimity of faults. some thought we needed a third party, fourth party, parliamentary system, others thought that will never work and we've got to reform the system as it is and influence the democrats and republicans, independents are all over the map on their views on issues and i think they are all over the map when it comes to whether or not we should create a third party. i do think a third-party candidacy this time around would seem virtually impossible that it could be successful. it could be something that would build over a period of years.

i don't think that is out of the question. and i do think, remember, ross perot in 1992 got 19% of the vote. that isn't an insignificant amount of the votes come and i think that reflects the frustration and another thing he did was raise the issue of the deficit to the national debate. and i think i have heard bill clinton say that if it is brought to the floor and helped make it a national issue that they dealt with, so i do think that the influence on the third party candidate might be issued a talk about, and in raising issues that the other two candidates are not talking about. >> host: by the way the deficit, what to ask a separate question of what you heard about people. i know there's a concern among independent voters on the deficit, there's the argument that with the private sector so strapped and straightened and with credit so tight just like we are hearing about the bailout

as we listen to the debate about that and how to get to the primary the private sector soc draft, the government had to be the vehicle to pump the money into the economy. did you hear any of the people you interviewed expressed any sympathy or understanding on that argument? >> guest: you mean the president's stimulus bill? >> host: the idea that the private sector didn't have any money. somebody had to put money in the economy to keep things going. >> guest: i think they were aware of the fact that the stimulus bill helps keep teachers, firefighters, police in place at a time when the state governments which had to balance their budgets were cutting very severely. so i think they were aware of that. i think dealing with the deficit is going to take a lot of discipline and some sacrifice for everyone. i was actually just talking

about this the other day and i think if you think of world war ii and the kind of sacrifice okay it was a war commesso the circumstances were a little different. but we rationed meat for heaven's sake. people were willing to sacrifice, and i think if people think this system is reforming itself, if the sacrifice is going to be shared if we raise taxes on the wealthy and capital gains, then maybe we can also tweaked medicare and social security and trim the mortgage interest deduction and i do think if that's the middle class it is explained adequately and they feel everyone is in it together i do think they will be willing to do it. host could you think the democrats are has resisted on entitlement reform as the republicans are on taxes? >> guest: yeah. yeah, the leadership.

and is awaiting -- >> host: obama was floating a possible grand with john boehner during the summer of the debt ceiling negotiations, but you think even if obama had tried to get a little ground on entitlement, the democrats and congress wouldn't have gone there. >> guest: not at that point. i do think that the commission, which at the end of 2010 would be substantive and the president kind of ignored it, didn't endorse it, just sort of let it leave their i think there was a real missed opportunity, and i think some of those proposals i think in 2013, and of course will depend who is elected president but we are probably going to deal with tax reform and the deficit and will all be part of a tack to the to package the deals with the deficit

economic reform and will have to be a bipartisan effort. >> host: it will have to be. i think barack obama if he's president again will want that. i think that he can probably muscle some democrats into going along with that but i think the republicans will think if we get him this victory and he's a victorious president whose approval rating is going to go -- am i rahm? >> guest: i think again if people make their voices heard and say enough of the crap, you know, enough of the posturing, we want real solutions and members are going to stand for the election in two years i do think it's possible. i really do. >> host: i think it's possible, too. i won't go any further than that. let's go back to talking about solutions outside of the realm of a third-party candidate. what are some of the institutional reforms, structural reforms that you

think need to happen that are possible? i know for example you talked earlier in the hour and you write a good bit in the book about opening up the primary process. what would that do? >> guest: i do think that the structural reforms to talk about lighting or fairly modest. i don't say we need a third-party and the systems, you know, i think my reforms are fairly modest because i think they are doable. i think they are realistic. i think they are the kind of things that average citizens can push for doing their own state and opening up the primary is one that i think is very doable to it i think citizens should push for this. they are in a state, the district of columbia is one place, it's not really a state so our voting rights are sort of not inclusive to begin with, but they are in a state that doesn't have a win primaries i think that they should push for them. and if they have a ballot

measure process about the initiative process they can do it that way because if we had open primaries i think the kind of candidates we would see would be very different. if the candidates had to appeal across the board, we would have much more centrist candidates. >> host: does the evidence really show us that if they are nominated in open primary states versus in the primary states is the evidence say the ones from open primary states are more moderate? >> guest: i think it does. i didn't do a sort of quantitative analysis on this, but i think and i would also take participation by the independent they would have to show up and vote. >> host: that is a habit that has to be developed at the time. >> guest: but i do think, you know, i do think it makes a difference. i also talked about the redistricting reform come and those are things that california

is working on right now. california has adopted the top tier system, top to system for nominating candidates. i have concerns about that frankly as opposed to an open primary because especially when you are running statewide and it's expensive in california but at least when you have an independent who can get on the ballot as an independent candidate the bar was the dow's high as collecting signatures and raising money to do that whereas statewide and in california, as you know, we have had multimillion-dollar campaigns for the incentive and telephone, so the top to i'm not sure would benefit. it would open up the primary to the voters, but i'm not sure that would benefit the small candidates and challengers. they also adopted the redistricting and had the district in any member of the public could apply for and participate in come and i think that we will see better

districts in california as a result because the way that congressional districts are drawn now they are drawn to protect both parties, and typically the public has almost nothing to say about it and rarely even gets to testify. most of the deals come in back rooms between the sitting democrats and republicans, and the public is cut out of the process and i think if we had -- i mean, right now i think any estimate is we of the 50 trillion competitive districts out of the 445 around the country, and if we had more, then again they would have to appeal to the broad spectrum of the voters, they would have to appeal to the center, not just the democratic or republican constituents. so that is another thing that i think. as i mentioned i think people should make small corporations. i think that money is a really intractable problem in the system, money and influence.

but that gets to the heart of both making contributions and making your voice heard showing up at meetings, e-mail lang and writing your elective official, letting them know what you care about. i talk about groups like no label, the coffee party, independent voting.org, if people support those groups we don't think any of them have had a significant impact yet. but people can start their own groups in their own communities. the internet is quite a level and i think that, you know, they can blogging, they can start newsletters, they can do all kind of things to be more active list. the key to this, and this is sort of i named my last chapter battle cry and i used the thomas paine quote that barack obama used when he was sworn in as

president we can begin the world again. the democracy is a participatory sport, and i think the media we didn't really talk of the media which a thing also is a big problem in this. they are very skeptical lead very dismissive of the voters in the middle of these independent voters. they don't give them much attention, they don't give them much credit. they say how well the swing voters vote? but that's the extent of the attention they give them. and i think they need to prove the abundance and the politicians from. this is what i'm hoping for. >> host: the book again is the swing vote, the untapped power of independence. now we get to the fun part of the segment. let's talk about you. where do you grew up? >> guest: i grew up in connecticut on the shoreline in connecticut in guilford connecticut, which is about 10 miles east of new haven, a

very ideal like community that has the most beautiful green and all of new england as far as i am concerned. >> host: you were a journalist for a number of years. how long it? >> guest: why was the editor of all things considered. i had a very traditional media career someone my age would have. i worked at some newspapers, i worked at the oregonian and up the hologram and western massachusetts. i worked at forbes magazine, and then i was at npr as an editor of all things considered and then i left to write my first book a freshman, but happened to the republican revolution command than for some years after that, i was the director of the boston university's center with a teaching journalism students and then have left to do this book.

>> host: and it says you are with the wilson center. >> guest: i may senior scholar at the wilson center yes, and i write for -- >> host: tell people what that is. >> guest: the willson center was created at the loving tribute to woodrow wilson who was the only ph.d. president that was ever had to refuse the president of princeton before he was elected president, and my dog my chocolate lab is named willson in honor, and it is a center where scholars from around the country and international scholars can come and do research and think about the various issues affecting the u.s. future and global issues. >> host: are you doing much traveling with the book? >> guest: yes, ibm. i'm going to be in ohio before this ayers. i'm going to be in the

high-yield for super tuesday week speaking at ohio state and i'm very excited about that. i'm going to be making a trip to new england at the end of march, so that will be after this errors. i'm going to be speaking at a few colleges and hampshire and i'm going to be at the main book festival on march 31st so i'm looking forward to that so, yeah, i am travelling at the moment to some of my swing states to talk about hopefully i think i will also be going to colorado in april, so. >> host: let me ask the president. you have a chapter about him we haven't talked about him much yet. what is your assessment from this perspective in this context of his job? >> guest: i'm a little critical of him as an equal opportunity credit because most

people think i'm overly critical of the republican party. i think i'm fairly critical of the former speaker pelosi in the book, who i think endangered, unnecessarily endanger her centrist democrats and more conservative democrats with some of the votes she made them take and i was writing about that time. i was doing a blog from u.s. news and was predicting exactly what would happen as a result of the votes she was making. >> host: what most notably? >> guest: well, the climate change vote, the cap-and-trade vote, and then of course the health care situation which would pass without a single republican vote, and i think the democrats decision to do that as opposed to focusing on the economy i personally think was a mistake, and i think the

progressive democrats aren't happy with the health care reform. they wanted a single payer system. so i think it didn't really short up for much the democratic base doing this, and it angered a lot of other people who had health insurance and who said, you know what, i think there are more pressing issues we need to be dealing with in the middle of the worst recession since the great depression. and i do think to some extent that barack obama's relative lack of experience before he was elected president of think we have seen the results of that. i think he hasn't shown as much leadership as he should have. obviously he has been dealt a tough hand, extraordinarily tough hand both in terms of the republicans on the willingness to work with him and the economy and, you know, terrible situation overseas as well and

the rest in iran and we don't know what's going to happen in the middle east. but i think he could have shown more leadership as i said when it relates to the deficit commission. i think that he should have embraced the commission and then out in front on that. i think that he should have knocked democratic leaders heads on capitol hill and said this is the way we are going to do this, this is the way we need to do this. >> host: why you think he didn't do these things? >> guest: i don't think it is in his personality. i think that he -- it isn't the way he looks up the world. i think that he is a consensus guy. i don't think that he is a confrontational guy, and i also think it was to a certain extent his relative lack of experience in the senate before he was elected president. >> host: tell us a little bit about the republican race so far obviously it's not controversial

to say the party hasn't gone a little further this time around, just, you know, what do you see as the future of the republican party, and i'm very curious about that. i mean, what might change this dynamic and real the party that it? >> guest: i don't know. i honestly don't know. i think i would have said a year ago that mitt romney would be the kind of candidate would appeal to the center that would appeal to the swing voters and that would have been a good candidate to challenge barack obama to appeal to the voters but i think the republican party had done everything they can to alienate the central voter, and i think that mitt romney has some hints of a million times in trying to appeal to the conservative right who make up the republican primary voters,

and i think -- i had said we didn't talk about the media much coming and i think in the republican primary and the we the media has covered it there's an opportunity to talk about the fault of the media which is all, i mean, it's a constant drum beat about what stupid things did new gingrich or rick santorum say today or what gasted mitt romney make? who's up, who's down? and i think substance is being ignored in this constant churning of the horse race and the drumbeat of what's happening in the republican primary, and i think that is turning off a lot of voters that and i don't think the voters in the center as a result the polls have shown that

independent voters have watched the debate in the lower percentage even democrats in the lowest percentage, and i did they want -- they think this is all the fighting and negative advertising and, you know, calling for an advantage, and i feed they will focus in september or october and they will let the republicans find it out, get a nominee, when they get a nominee, when the conventions are held cut that is when the independent voters will start to pay attention. >> host: we are about a lot of time. one last question and i want you to look further into the future and be realistic but optimistic. in ten years' time do you think that the system could be in better shape than it is now? >> guest: ghosh, i certainly hope so. i mean, i really hope that all of those people that are set up an independent voters and others

say with of this book the swing vote, yes, someone gets sick they share my concern about and they get involved and get active because i think we face such serious problems in this country that i think we have to reform the system, we have to make changes in our political systems we can address them and i hope that the voters will read this book and get involved and press our elected officials to make changes. >> host: it's the swing vote of the untapped power of independent spirit when the killian, thanks so much. >> guest: thanks for having me. that was afterwards mack, book tv signature program and which authors of the latest nonfiction books are interviewed by journalists, public policy

makers, legislators and others familiar with the material. "after words" errors every weekend on book tv at 10 p.m. on saturday, 12 p.m. and 9 p.m. on sunday, and 12 a.m. on monday. you can also watch online. galt booktv.org, and click on "after words" in the book tv series and topics list on the upper right side of the page. here's a look at some books that are being published this week.