>> a new book out by the heartland institute. roosters of the apocalypse. >> one of my favorite titles i must tell you. roosters that the apocalypse is about environmental policy and really the chicken little syndrome when it comes to global warming alarmists on. there are the chicken little is in the people that examined the science. and understand the climate of courses changing but probably not catastrophic and man's impact is not nearly as bad as a lot of people think. this is by ray isaac. her first book with a good that is brand-new and will be coming out. >> jim lakely is the director of the heartland institute. your website? >> heartland.org. ..

democrats. which, to me, means they are dissatisfied with the system and dissatisfied with the two-party. i've been covering politics for

a long time, and i wanted to address this. i wanted to get at what are these voters looking for? who are these voters? what do they care about? what to do what? how can we fix things? because i don't think anyone could say that we -- our system has become fairly dysfunctional. so this larger voting block in the nation have determined the outcome of every election since world war two. the swing voters that the book is named for. ignored and unrepresented and not having as saying really and how politics and government is run. and i begin the book with thomas paine. i end the book with thomas paine. not to be too grandiose, and someone accused me of using the fingers last night when i use that word among but common sense, thomas paine book that

lit the fuse of the revolution. i call for democratic republic to be governed by the people. and i think we need to return to that. i don't think we are really there and right now. so i think that was -- i hope in some small way to also let a fire under the people in gift and going and get them motivated. >> host: tell us why we should be worried. why is this a problem? >> guest: well, our system is fundamentally undemocratic and a number of ways. one of the ways is closed primaries. so with half the states in the country 40 percent of all the voters can't participate in the primary. and so they have no say in who gets nominated. and as a result we get more and more extreme candidates on both ends of the spectrum who are nominated by the party activists

and then that is who we are getting elected to congress. couple that with the way congressional districts are drawn, another big problem, which is leaving out the middle. the middle is totally disappear in congress. centrists are totally disappearing, and so you have the far left and the far right unable to cut deals, unable to govern, which is why i think congress with the 9 percent approval rating right now. >> host: my reading of the book indicated that well you do certainly blame both sides this problem, says that you blame one side more than the other. is that a fair reading? and that's that is the republican side. >> guest: i think you're right. i say that i set out to blame both sides equally. when i started reporting the book, when i started writing the book i felt both parties had moved more to the extreme and had been ignoring the center. but i think in reporting the book and, of course, i was

reporting the book for the past two years, that tea party had been wise in making its voice heard. and so you have some very spectacular prominence primary elections in 2010. for example in delaware where mike castle was challenged by a questionably qualified candidate christine and i am not a witch o'donnell. mike castle was congressman for many years. very popular in the state, a centrist republican. and you have republicans saying, mostly to party people saying, i don't care if my castle loses. i don't want him in congress. he's not the kind of republican we want. and this sort of cleansing of the centrist democrat -- i mean, excuse me, the centrist republicans that are, you know -- they called them winos call republican in name only.

the republicans do that, not the democrats. they have the republicans in alaska where mr. rakowski, the sitting senator, is challenged by the tea party. jim demint, a member of the own party sitting raise money against your, the tea party candidate. she lost the primary and said forget this. she ran as a right in canada and one. more than 50 percent of all the voters in alaska are registered independents. so i do think there is more of a cleansing and more of a purity test on the republican side. i think the republicans have moved away to the right. i think this recent birth control the buckle, you know, when 98 percent of all women use birth control, a catholic women and women of every other faith, i think this is the kind of social, you know, right wing effort to inject religion into the public's fear. i think centrist voters,

independent voters don't like it, and they think the economy is the big problem, you know, the deficit is the big problem. there are other big issues, but we have moved past this season like whether people should be able to get married or abortions to be a private choice. on the democratic side the democrats had a big swing to the left in the 1970's when george mcgovern ran for president. and i think they had their realignments. i think bill clinton obviously was more of a centrist president , not all the democrats liked him. he was there a standard bearer before barack obama. and so i do think it's tough for centrist democrats, but it's more a question, i think, that they tell them to go sit in the corner. they tell them to get out of the party. that is my read on it.

the moderate to conservative democrats, morgan hall was challenged by unions last summer and then lost their primary, democratic senator from arkansas. but for the most but i do think the republicans scutes of much more litmus test. >> host: what do you think that is? is a psychological in some way? ideological? about discipline, their attitude toward having political power, what is it the think? >> guest: i think that's a good question. i think it has been a strategy that they felt his work for them in coalescing antigens in their base. increasingly i think there republican party has become, and i quote tom davis, the former moderate republican congressman from northern virginia in say much the same thing. the republican party has become a party of older white males southern voters.

and they are not a party, especially with the birth control thing, that tends to appeal to women as much. they don't appeal to minorities. at the hispanic vote is very rapidly grow a link and a very important swing vote, i think with their behavior they think is the hispanic vote could buy in this election, even if they pick someone like mark arubia to be the vice-president of canada. >> host: even if? >> guest: even if they pick him, they may win some hispanic votes, but i think hispanics are very, very upset with the rhetoric on immigration and what's going on in the southwest. and in a lot of south western states, ariz., you know, some of the southwestern states that hispanic population is approaching -- were talking 50 percent of the entire state population, so this is not a trivial voting block of all.

so i just think that it was a ploy to play to the base. and but i think it is a mistake if they want to be majority national party. >> host: let's talk a little bit about the book's structure and the work you did in assembling the book. just describe -- excuse me, describe how you organize the book and the work you did. >> guest: yap. first of all, the most important thing to me was finding the independent voters. they were the bedrock. i wanted to describe who they were. i wanted people to hear their voices. so that was critical to me, finding the independent voters. and i settled on for swing states that i would focus on. the book talks about more than that. there is a chapter on congress, a chapter on the presidency in various other things. there are four swing states,

colorado, ohio, virginia, and in hansard that i think are four very key swing states in different regions of the country and so i began to reach out to independent voters in the states, and i got voter lists from secretaries of state and registered voters and call people on the phone at 7:00 at night. >> host: calling people called. >> guest: calling people cold who registered independents. that is public information. if you're registered unaffiliated is what most states call it. >> host: by the way, we should tell people that in many states you can't get that information because you don't have to enroll by party. >> guest: that's right. >> host: how many states? >> guest: about half. about half of. >> host: in these four states people have to -- >> guest: actually, no. in colorado and new hampshire could find the unaffiliated voters. in virginia and ohio people don't register by party, and i use other ways to reach up to independent voters. but i would call people on the phone and i would say, i'm a

reporter, and i am working on a book about the independent voters. you know, but 80 percent of the cases there were very happy to talk with me. there were happy that someone cared, someone wanted to hear what they thought about the political system. and by and large when this came up i did in the event recently with the deputy bureau chief of the new york times. he and some others said, well, the voters still know very much. i didn't find that to beecher at all. i find that independent voters may be slightly more disengages to the chicken or the egg, because they're so fed up with the party system and the way it's practiced. that was one way. i did focus groups and all four states. i reached out to people through groups like no labels an independent voting. they hooked me up with some of their voters in different states >> host: and you just a symbol these focus groups yourself?

>> guest: i some of these focus groups myself. political consultants charge a great deal of money to a symbol focus groups. so i was annealed by doing this. it was a lot of work and a very challenging. and i travel to the states the few times. i just said about the work of meeting these voters and finding out what they think. >> host: how many people the think he talks to? >> guest: well, counting -- and in addition to the voters i've interviewed elected officials and activists and all kinds of different people. i mean, certainly at least 500. yeah. >> host: a pretty good sample size. let's get to your four topologies of independent voters . four successive chapters on the state's. within each of these states you sort of identify a group. and the first and in many ways the most interesting to people, to me, the npr republicans who you associate with hampshire but

to, of course, are everywhere. who are the npr republicans? >> guest: the mp of republicans of the people we used to think about as a rockefeller republican spirit of that it was time for some of these names to be freshened up. obviously nelson rockefeller has been done for quite awhile. the npr republicans, out of new england, but there really are all over the country as well. they tend to be more affluent, socially moderate, fiscally conservative republicans. they would be appalled by the control discussion and they think abortion is a personal choice. they don't get into the social issues. there are fiscally conservative. there were turned off during the bush years by the mismanagement of government, by the growth of government under republican congress and president, by dr rock work. some of them voted for barack obama in 2008. but they did not like the health

care reform. didn't like the growth of government. and so they are very much up for grabs this time around. i would have said that mitt romney would be a perfect candidate to appeal to these in pr republicans. i'm not sure now. there has been so much disarray in the republican primary. by the time in -- who knows where things stand. but i will say, the npr republicans are the fund-raisers they raise the money for the republican party. there are plenty of them out there, but they have been driven out of office because of the move to the right. >> host: did you hear from them sadness our anchor? >> guest: both. both. civilly in new hampshire i talked to a number of former and current state legislators who would fall into that npr republican category. some have lost primaries, been driven out of the legislature. some still in there trying to

fight but to fill very marginalized by the more conservative republican in the new hampshire state legislature. so they did feel the party had been sort of taken over and that there wasn't room for them in the party. >> host: the largest of your four groups. >> guest: not by a long shot. no. >> host: let's get to the other three. you have the starbucks moms and dads, and duplicate them in virginia. >> guest: the suburbs of virginia. that, i think is the largest group. they are the real power voters and the decisive election this. these would be suburban moms and dads can the people who live in the suburbs. 50 percent, more than 50 percent of all americans now live in suburbs or exit's. only in 1980 it was 30%. so it's growing rapidly. and these suburbs are very racially diverse, increasingly so. and the suburban voters swing.

they care about the economy number one, jobs, the deficit. they care about education issues they care but keeping the country safe. and they have togolese one in 2006 they voted for the democrats. two dozen eight they voted for barack obama. in 2010i think probably turned off a bit by the health care reform, the government concerned about the economy. they swung almost 40 points for the republican. so they -- >> host: some state home also i think it's. >> guest: that's right. that's right to be get a turnout among independents. and they are up for grabs this time around. >> host: this group, just to distinguish this group from the npr republicans, the npr republicans are enrolled republicans. these people a probably enrolled

affiliate's? >> guest: a mixture, i would say, of republicans and independents became independent because of their frustration with the social agenda. there would be a mixture. the starbucks moms and dads would be independence, but they might also be center-right republicans and center-left immigrants. it is a little tricky because the book is called the swing vote. i'm focusing of independent voters, but that is mostly who i talk to. there are also registered democrats and republicans to swing quite a bit here just haven't changed their registration or maybe they want to deal to vote in primaries. >> host: 20 percent of democrats across the country call themselves conservatives ideologically. something most people might not know. we should also point of quickly that we are using the word unaffiliated an independent energy.

>> guest: i use the word independent to sort of be more accessible, but in most states the registration categories unaffiliated were unrolled. >> host: interesting. third group, younger people with speech to the facebook generation, people under 35. they are registered in the highest percentage of independence of any other age group. now they voted big time for barack obama in 2008. but i think it is a big question, not so much especially given to the republicans are thinking of nominating, not so much republican this time around, but will they voted all. it's very hard to get these young voters to turn out, whereas voters over 60 turnout in the highest percentage. voters under 30 turnout in the lowest percentage. barack obama energize them, but

he sort of raise their hopes, as he did with a lot of the independent voters who voted for him, but he was going to be post partisan, work with the other side, he was going to get things done in a new way, but he was not going to let lobbyists come to the white house. instead they come to a starbucks of block from the white house. so i think there are a little bit turned off by what they perceive to be the lack of change. and they are concerned about the economy. they have student loan debt and the jobs. they told me, if you talk to a group like rock the vote, which is a liberal organizers group, they will tell you young people in liberal. they will just tell you that. there is certainly a group of conservative young people who would be hard for republicans, but they tell you the majority of young people a liberal. what i found is they would vote for republican after republicans gave them a reason to vote for

them. you know, if the republican candidates didn't stress the social issues, obviously a people under 35 have totally moved on from the debate about a marriage or abortion or this kind of stuff. there are totally in a different space on that. they can be more fiscally conservative. they are concerned. >> host: libertarian. >> guest: they are. that's why they like ron paul. everyone says is because ron paul wants to legalize drugs. that is, i think, quite dismissive. i think they like ron paul for his libertarian needs, and they like him because he's interstellar. day will tell you this over and over. a lot of politician that tells that straight. they don't want the same problems. ♪ >> host: interesting. the fourth group, said the older , a group that you base in ohio. >> guest: yes. the america first democrats. they would beat reagan democrats , we have traditionally

thought of as reagan democrats. these would be a place where you would find a lot of these. for example, massachusetts. that is to get scott brown elected to the senate, a lot of independent voters in massachusetts. the leaner not, despite its lurid reputation. >> host: more independence in massachusetts. >> guest: there are. these would tend to be lower middle-class manufacturing based employees, policemen, firemen, even teachers can be america first democrats in the midwest. and they a more socially conservative said. they have been hit hard. for example, in ohio.

very hard. outsourcing manufacturing jobs. and i think barack obama, he didn't really carry the strip in 2008 to but i think he sees them , he wants to add them to the coalition in 2012. and so i think some of his language about tax cuts, companies that create jobs here, not allowing companies to write off their expenses when they move jobs overseas. a lot of these kind of things he has brought of they're recently in terms of tax reform, designed to appeal to this group. and i do think some of the things republicans have done in states like ohio and wisconsin with their anti-union legislation has turned off this group. and so i think this group is more in play that it would have been if the republican governors did not overreach. >> host: taking all four of these groups together and thinking about the two parties as they now exist, what do the

democrats -- let's start with the democrats, what with the democrats need to do to win the allegiance of these groups? and would doing those things necessarily alienate the existing democratic base? >> guest: well, i seem to tell you the truth, but the democrats and republicans could do the same thing to when this crew. and i think it would to a certain extent turn off their base, both of their bases, but i think that is what we need. that is the kind of change and the shakeup that we needed a system. what these voters want is the two parties to work together. they want to see some action. you know, i'm getting ready to write a piece for the atlantic about the fact that we may see virtually no legislation passed in the next eight months of congress in session. you know, people realize that congress is not doing his job.

and independent voters said to me, listen, i don't get paid if i don't do my job. no labels, a group trying to work in this year. they have a piece of legislation , no budget, no pay. it has been years since congress actually passed a budget, and this is don't pay the members of congress if they don't pass a budget. we want to see them work together. action on the deficit, concerned about the deficit, concerned about the economy. i think they understand that the two go together and that the day will come very soon when we have got said deal with the deficit. they want to make sure the country remain safe, but they also, i think, happy that we are getting out of our foreign entanglements. i think they feel that we have problems your home that we need to be addressing.

that like to see political leaders being more responsive. i do think they are concerned about fairness. as it relates to the tax cut and to the benefits that the wealthy and the leaves get that they don't feel they're getting. so i think these are all issues, you know, that they would like to see congress and the president address. >> host: let's talk about congress and the president or the presidency. let's start with congress. so why do you think it has become? the money, ideology, you know, the kind of partisanship that started in the 90's? all of those things, of course, but what is the main thing to you? >> guest: i think you have hit all of them. there are all factors. my first book was the republican revolution, and the road about gingrich quite a bit in that

book, and i've written about him recently. and i think it is fair to say that he is sort of the architect of our current in congress. it is true that the democrats were -- when they were in control for 50 years of congress , there were a bit dismissive to republicans their mother clear war. he ticket to all the other level. he saw that the wave -- the way he could win back congress was to demonize the democrats. it wasn't enough to say their ideas are wrong. it was enough to say if we have a better idea. he had to say they were paired -- terrible people who want to wreck the country so that escalated the negativity, hard feelings, the inability to work together, and it also, this

constant drumbeat of the republican constant drum beat that government is bad, you know, inefficient, bad, terrible. i think it hasn't been in a way negative campaign commercials again. i think now of the american public is that not to the bandwagon about government is bad. there are a lot of things that are inefficient of congress and government, but it's obviously very necessary. the idea is to make it better. so i think the negative partisanship, the isolation, the congressional schedule, which sounds like kind of a minor thing, you know, members of congress now fly in on tuesday afternoon for the first boat, fly out on thursday night said they can be home fund-raising or holding the campaign. they never eat dinner together, they never socialize together. i live next door to a former

member of congress to was a democrat, and i would mention a republican and he didn't even know who he was. you know, they don't -- if they are not on a committee with someone they don't of the other side. and there is no trust there if you don't develop relationships. the big problem. mark warner, the senator from virginia, the moderate democrat from virginia, very involved in the game with six and deficit-reduction. the sec's bees chambliss of georgia. they just get their heads begin. not remotely interested in the bipartisan effort to work on the deficit because it did not fit the talking points. it did not fit the real life and will make the other side looks at and we're not going to work together in her going to fight for every advantage of.

a recent public debate said something about exploiting a vote. politics is a team sport. in other words, yet to go along because the leaders wanted his boat and he was part of that team. >> host: talking about the child left behind. >> guest: that is the mind set on capitol hill. and it is large and e-mail. it is a majority of men, and they have this sports mentality. there are winners and losers. there will beat their brains out you know, and that is the mindset. >> host: and how about money? >> guest: money is a difficult and intractable problem. i thought that mccain fine gold was a good idea. the campaign finance reform, and it has proven to maybe not be so good in terms of unintended consequences. we have the supreme court

citizens united decision. i think there is no doubt that money affects the outcome on capitol hill. money buys access, money buys, you know, tweaks in the tax code it's a lot easier to put in a taxable benefit for a corporate entity, a government program and they're is a lot of that's going on. and i talked with a former congressman dan goodman about this. he said to me, money isn't just the mother's milk of politics, its the yogurt and cottage cheese to. totally controls everything. how we deal with this without a constitutional amendment. money always finds a way. one of the things i have in my book, i say the independent voters should make small contributions to kendis they like the other party, candidates

or independent candidates that they think it doing the right thing or trying to work together . if you think about 40 percent of the electorate making small contributions, that could actually be a lot of money. of course barack obama raised a lot of money in small but traditions. >> host: not just campaign contributions to money spent lobbying. >> guest: that's right. >> host: they spent nearly a billion dollars lobbying for against the health care bill, against different elements of it, for inclusion of different elements. >> guest: same with wall street for. >> host: really a bigger problem in a way. >> guest: yes. and i really have to say i'm not sure how you deal with that. it's a first amendment right. you know, i don't really know how you deal with that except that voters -- i mean, members care about money because they want to pay for campaigns. it's a means to an end.

mostly they care about votes. so the money is just a way to get the votes to advertising. so if the voters showed up and made their voices heard, i'd like to believe maybe they could make a difference or wait and other candidates against the incumbents. i like to think they can make a difference. >> host: some of the people in both parties to you think are admirable and of trying. you mentioned mike warner, a long section in the book we talk with him. he's obviously one. talk let him a little bit and who on the republican side you think -- or who is there's. >> guest: obviously there are libya's no and susan collins from may who are centrists republicans who -- here is that they cannot sell you the truth, i think they have been kind of terrified. susan collins to study sees me, olivia is no joining free election this year, and i think

they have been kind of doubt into, you know, -- she will undoubtedly have a two-party challenger. >> host: the main republican party is very tea party east. >> guest: yes. so it has got a lot of the moderate republicans, someone like senator lugar from indiana, another person especially in the area of foreign affairs with a long history of working in a bipartisan way. sp1 obama's old friend. >> guest: even orrin hatch from utah, nobody's moderate, just like robert bennett, terrified of the tea party challenge. >> host: about-face. >> guest: i think tom coburn who is not a moderate, definitely a conservative, very fiscally conservative who was in the class of '94 in the house and then became a senator from

oklahoma. tom coburn was in the gang of six, and i think i have always found him a republican. i have always found him to be very honest, very straightforward. he worked in the gang of six. i think he has a good relationship with barack obama. i think he respects and. i think he has always tried to be honest and work on the deficit. he cares a lot about deficit reduction. he is not running for reelection next time though. he was announcing that he is not right for reelection. >> host: some of it comes from the sense that he was retiring. >> guest: that's right. and so he is free to say and do what he wants. the republican party can't do anything to him. you know. >> host: let skip ahead a little bit and talk about solutions. because they're hard to come by. i'll be honest with you, it's a

little brief, but i don't really blame the because it's just hard to figure out what the heck to do about this. let me talk about two categories of solutions. the first one that occurs to most people when they think about our deadlocked system is that they think about of third-party presidential candidacy from the center. you devote some time in your book to that. to you think that is the solution, or could such a person actually when? >> guest: those are sort of two separate questions. could they win and we will accomplish? >> host: expanding their energies to let me ask it that way. >> guest: we will hear more about an independent challenge this year as this group gets going. >> host: right. >> guest: this is a group that has raised $20 million. they have either -- what they're doing is collecting signatures and getting on the ballot

without a candid right now, just a blank spot on the ballot. there will be at the top because it is alphabetical, so there will be the first line on the ballot. we don't know yet who their candidate is going to be. >> host: any idea what kind of person that might be? skinny tossup three hypothetical is? >> guest: i heard names. and i'm not saying these people would be interested, but connolly's a rice or general patraeus certainly jon huntsman is the kind of candidate that i think would be in this space. he says he has no interest in running as a third-party candidate, so i'm not sure who they're going to approach. it is supposed to be any registered voter can go online and nominate. of course you can't nominate a candidate who is simply unwilling to participate in go along with it. they have to find someone who is willing to do this. the independent voters that i talked with, they were very

divided. there was no unanimity of thought. some thought we need a third party, a fourth party, a parliamentary system. others thought, you know, that will never work. we just have to reform the system as it is an influence the democrats and republicans. so independents are sort of all over the map on their views on issues, and i think they're all over the map when it comes to whether or not we should create a third party. i do think at third party candidacy -- i think this time around it was seen virtually impossible that it to be successful. it could be something that could build up over years. i don't think that's out of the question. and i do think -- remember ross perot in '92 get 19 percent of the vote. that's not insignificant amount. and i think that reflects the frustration and another thing he did was raise the issue of the deficit to the national debate. at think i heard bill clinton

say that it brought it to the 4r and helps make it a national issue that the doe with. i do think the influence of a third-party candidate might be in the shoes they talk about. in raising issues that the of the two candidates to talk about . >> host: the deficit, want to ask a question, what you heard. another is concern about the independent voters. there is the argument that with the private sector so strapped and so straitened and with credit so tight colleges that we are hearing about the auto bailout as we listen to debates about that heading into the michigan prairie, what the private sector so strapped government had to be the vehicle to pump some money into the economy. these you hear any of the people you interviewed express any sympathy or understanding with that argument? >> guest: you mean with the president's stimulus bill.

>> host: typically, but more generally just the idea that the private sector did have any money. somebody had to keep things flowing. >> guest: i think they were aware of the fact that the stimulus bill helped keep teachers, firefighters, police in place at a time when state governments which had to balance their budgets for cutting very severely. think they were aware of that. acting, you know, dealing with the deficit is going to take a lot of discipline and some sacrifice from everyone. i was actually just talk about this at an event, and i think, you know, if you think of world war to end the kind of sacrifice okay. it was a war. the circumstances were a little different, but i mean, it was -- people were willing to sacrifice and i think if people think it's fair, i think if people think the system is reforming itself,

if the sacrifice is going to be shared if we raise taxes on the wealthy, if we raise capital gains and then maybe we can also treat medicare and tweet social security and trim the mortgage interest deduction and the things that affect the middle-class, i think it is explained adequately and they feel everyone is in it together i do think there will be willing to do it. >> host: de you think the democrats are just as resisted on entitlement reform as the republicans are on taxes? >> guest: of, yes. oh, yes. and so i think -- >> host: obama was floating a bargain. over the summer during the debt ceiling initiations, but you think even if obama had tried to give a little ground on the tenements the democrats in congress would not have gone there. >> guest: not at that point. i think the simpson bowles commission, which at the end of

2010 released its report and was very sensitive a comprehensive and the president ignored it, did not endorse it, it's a sort of let it lay there, i think that was a real missed opportunity. and i think some of those proposals -- i think in 200013 and above course, it will depend to is elected president, but i think we will probably have to deal with tax reform and the deficit and that it will probably all be part of a package. you know, deal with the deficit and settlement in form. it will have to be a bipartisan effort. >> it will have to be. barack obama president again. i think he can probably muscle some democrats into going along with the, but i think the republicans will think that if we give him this victory then he is a victorious president whose

approval rating is going to -- emma wrong? >> yes, but i think again people make their voices heard and say, you know, a enough of the posturing, enough of this we want real solutions. and new house members will stand for election in two years. i do think it's possible. i really do. >> host: i think it's possible to actually. possible. i won't go any further than that. let's get back to talking about solutions outside of the realm of a third-party prez's a candidate. what are some of the institutional reform, structural reforms that you think need to happen and are possible. for example you talked earlier in our and rode a good book about opening up the primary process. what would that do? >> i do think the structural reforms i talk about are fairly modest. i don't say we need a third party.

the two-party system, you know, i think might reforms are fairly modest because i think there are doable. i think they are realistic. i think they are the kind of things that average citizens can push for in their own states. opening up the primary is one that i think is very doable. i think that citizens should push for this. if they live in the state, district of columbia is one place, not really a state. our voting rights are sort of nonexistent to begin with. but they live in a state that does not have open primaries. should push for them. and if they have a ballot measure, process, initiative process that can do at the white. because if we had open primaries i think the kind of candid it's we would see would be very different. if candidates had to appeal across the board we would have much more centrist candid it's. >> host: does the evidence will show us that? and me, if you compare candid

it's nominated in the open primary states versus kendis nominated and states, does the evidence really say what the ones for states are more moderate? >> i think it does. i did not to a quantitative analysis on it. but i think -- and it would also take participation by the independence. they would have to show up and vote. >> that is a habit that has to be developed over time. >> guest: but i do think, you know, i do think it makes a difference. i would also talk about redistricting. both of these things are things that california is working on right now. california has adopted a top to system. top to system. nominating candidates. i have concerns about that, frankly, as opposed to just an open primary because i feel especially when you're running statewide that at least when you

had an independent ticket on the ballot as an independent candidate the bar was as high for collecting signatures and raising money to do that. where a statewide in california, as you know, we have had multi-billion dollar campaigns for governor. so top to i'm not sure it would benefit. would open up the primary voters, but i'm not sure it would benefit small candid it's a challengers. they have also adopted redistricting reform and had a redistricting commission. member of the public could apply for input to submit and. and i think we would see some better districts in california as a result. because the way congressional districts are drawn now, they are drawn to protect incumbents of both parties. typically the public has almost nothing to say about it. really gets to even testified. most of these are cuts in back rooms between hasidic democrats and republicans.

and the public really is cut out of the process. i think if we had -- i mean, right now i think in the estimate is we may have 52 competitive congressional districts of a 435. and if we had more then, again, they would have to appeal to the broad spectrum of voters to be there would have to appeal to the center, not just democratic republican constituency. said that is another thing that i think. as i mentioned, i think people should make small contributions. i think money is there really intractable problem in the political system. money and influence. but that gets to the heart of both in making contributions and in making your voice heard, showing up at meetings, e-mailing and writing your elected officials, wedding and know what you care about. i talk about groups like no labels, the coffee party, independent voting data work.

the people support those groups, you know, i don't think any of them have had a significant impact yet. people can start their own group. you know, their own community. the internet is quite a leveller. and i think that, you know, they can log, they can start newsletters, they can do all kinds of things. i think the key to this -- and this is sort of the the thomas paine "the barack obama used in his when he was sworn in as president. we can begin the world again. democracy is epic to satori force, and i think we didn't really talk about the media, which i think is also a big problem. they are very skeptical and very dismissive of these voters in the middle, these independent voters.

they don't give them much attention. they don't give them much credit. they say, oh, well, how will the swing voters vote? i think they need to approve the plan and some politicians wrong. this is one of hoping for. >> host: the book is "the swing vote," -- "the swing vote: the untapped power of independents." now we get to define segment. where did you grow up? >> guest: i grew up in connecticut. of the shoreline in connecticut, go for connecticut, which is about 10 miles east of new haven. very idyllic, beautiful community. it has the most beautiful green and all of new england as far as i'm concerned. >> host: and you, a journalist at npr for a number of years a mile long? >> guest: i was the editor of of these considered for a few years at npr. i had a sort of traditional

media career that someone my age would have. i were to some newspapers, i worked at the telegram and massachusetts. i was at forbes magazine, and then i was at npr. then i left to write my first book, the freshman, what happens to republican revolution. and then for some years after that i was the director of the boston university washington center here, teaching journalism students. and then a left to do this book. the swing vote. >> host: and it says the with the wilson center. >> guest: the senior scholar. created as a living tribute to will through -- woodrow wilson who was the only ph.d. president that we have ever had. president of princeton

university before he was elected president, and my dog to my chocolate lab mendelssohn in honor of woodrow wilson. and this is a center where scholars from around the country and international scholars can, do research. think about various issues affecting the u.s. future and global issues. >> host: are you doing much traveling? >> guest: yes, im. i'm going to be in ohio before this series. i'll be in ohio for super tuesday week. ohio state. very excited about that. i'm going to be making a trip to new england at the end of march. we will be at the main but festival. march 301st. i'm looking for to that.

so, yeah. and traveling at the moment to some of my swing states. i think of the going to colorado in april. but yes. >> host: that bst about the president. you have a chapter about him. we haven't talked about in much yet. what is your assessment from this perspective in this context? >> guest: well, i am a little critical of him. people think that i am an equal opportunity critic. people think i am overly critical of the republican party i think i'm a fairly critical of former speaker nancy pelosi in the book who i think endangered unnecessarily endanger her centrist democrats and they're more conservative democrats with some of the votes she made them take, and i was writing about that at the time. i was doing a block for u.s.

news. i was predicting exactly what would happen as a result of the votes as she was making the take . >> host: what most heavily? >> guest: well, the climate change vote, the captain trade vote, and then, of course, the health care situation. which we pass to that a single republican vote. and i think the democrats decision to do that as opposed to focusing on the economy, i personally think it was a mistake. and i think progressive democrats are not happy with the health care reform. they wanted a single payer system. so i think it didn't really sure so much of the democratic base doing this, and it angered a lot of other people who have health insurance and he said, you know what, i think there are more pressing issues that we need to be dealing with in the middle of

the worst recession since the great depression. and i do think to some extent that barack obama relative lack of experience before he was elected president, i think we have seen the results of that. i think he has not shown as much as he should have. and a obviously he has been dealt a very tough man-to-man extraordinarily tough and. both in terms of republicans and willingness to work with him in the economy and the terrible situation overseas. but that think he could have shown more as i said, when it relates to the deficit commission. a think he should have embraced the some symbols deficit commission and been out in front on that. think he should have not some democratic leaders said the capital.

paulette lbj in said this is the way we're going to do this, this is the way we need to. >> host: you don't think he did these things. >> guest: i don't think it's in his personality. i think he -- it isn't the way he looks at the world. i think he is a consensus guy. i don't think he's a confrontational guy. i also think it was to a certain extent his relative lack of experience in the senate before he was elected president. >> host: talk a little bit about the republican race so far [laughter] obviously i think it is not controversial to say the party has gone a little farther off to the right this time around. just, you know, what do you see -- what do you see as the future of the republican party? i'm very curious about that. what might change this dynamic and real a party back a bit? >> guest: i don't know.

i would have set a year ago that mitt romney would be the kind of candidate that would appeal to the center, that would appeal to swing voters and that would have been a good candidate to challenge brought obama to appeal to these center voters, but i think the republican party has done everything they can to alienate the center voters. i think mitt romney finds himself, you know, trying to appeal the conservative right to make up half the republican primary voters. so -- and i think i have said that we didn't talk about the media much, and i think in the republican primary and the way the media has covered it, there is an opporunity to talk about the faults of the media. which is all -- i mean, it is the constant drumbeat about

white stupid thing newt gingrich or rick santorum said today or what mitt romney made, who is up, down, you know, and i think substance is being ignored in this constance churning of the horse race and the drumbeat of what's happening in the republican primary. and i think that is turning off a lot of voters. i don't think that the voters in the center as a result, polls have shown that independent voters watch the republican debate in a lower percentage, even democrats and the lowest percentage. and i think they will -- they think this is all silliness. all of this sort of fighting and negative advertising and applying for an advantage, and that think they will focus in in

september. let the republicans fight it out, get a nominee. when they get a nominee, when the conventions are held, that is with the independent voters will start to pay attention. >> host: we are about of time. one last question. allow you to look further into the future. be realistic, but optimistic. in ten years' time to you think that the system can be in better shape than it is now? >> guest: oh, gosh. i certainly hope so. i mean, i really hope that all those people who are fed up, independent voters and others say with this book the swing vote, yes, someone does it. they hear what i'm concerned about, and they get involved and get active. because i think we face such problems in this country. i think we have to reform the system we have to make changes

so we can address them, and i hope that the voters will read this book and get involved and press our elected officials to make changes. >> host: "the swing vote: the untapped power of independents". linda killian, thank you so much for your time. >> guest: thank you for having me. >> that was after words, book tv signature program in which others and of nonfiction books are interviewed. tests after words airs every weekend at 10:00 p.m. on saturday, 12 and 9:00 p.m. on sunday, at 12:00 a.m. on monday. you can also watch after words on line. good to booktv.org and click on after words in the book tv series of topics list of the upper right side of the