>> a regular guy who liked girls

-- he saved his crew in world war ii and then he saved us. he rose to the occasion. we all hope that our presidents can do that. some like nixon done, but when a president to rise and be a better man as president than he ever was in life, that is our dream. >> mr. matthews, thank you. >> in a few moments, a discussion on the air of spring and islamic political parties. then maggie anderson, an author of a book about america's racially divided economy.

the carnegie endowment for international peace had an assembly and washing for middle eastern parties.

in this to our discussion, we will hear from politicians and cabinet members from several of those countries. >> [inaudible conversations] >> good morning. i'm jessica mathews. it is my pleasure to welcome you to what is a very important and wonderful day. we have the great good fortune to bring together leaders from five countries -- as you can see, hundreds of members of the washington policy community for some sharing, understanding, and questions that have not happened before.

sixteen months ago, a gathering of this sort was unthinkable. sahbi atig, hosni mubarak, and nabil alkofahi were all in power. in many cases, this was banned. today, many countries are in transition and these parties are part of a historic office of change. in tunisia, morocco, egypt, these parties have one substantial victories at the ballot, and now or will soon occupy key government posts. the rise of these parties are a political reality. the decisions that they make will powerfully shaped the region's for years to come. we convene this conference because in spite of their growing power, these parties

remain poorly understood in washington and other key capitals outside of the region. many leaders have never served in government and have had limited contacts with the west. the rise to power have provoked a lot of uncertainty and trepidation among policymakers. they replace autocrats. and so we felt it would be enormously valuable to bring together both sides of this new equation for an overdue conversation. our hope for today is for candor and a pointed exchange of views. we invite everyone to listen carefully and to ask tough questions. the arab world faces major

challenges after decades of oppression and stagnation. with infamous parties poised to enter power for the first time, we have questions. how strong a role will religion play in government? will individual freedom be projected? will parties reflect the outcome of future elections no matter who wins? on the economic front, what do these parties plan to do to reduce unemployment and spur growth? what sort of business environment do they plan to create? are panels today are designed to answer these questions and more. they are meant to provide emerging leaders a chance to share their views with an expert audience on how they intend to govern. at the same time, they are meant to provide western policymakers a chance to listen and ask probing questions.

we are at carnegie proud to be able to host this event and uniquely equipped to have done so. we operate one of the arab world's leading think tanks, the carnegie middle east center in beirut. scholars and staff across the region. we operate and publish all our work in both a redneck and english, and we focus our analysis and research on issues of political reform, economic reform, and democratization. when we got together to create the world's first think tank, we did have an ambition to connect a global audience with local expertise, local voices from the world's most critical regions, and that is precisely what we are doing here today.

i want to thank two people and individuals who made today possible area marwan muasher, moammar gadhafi, and nabil alkofahi, who worked for untold hours to pull this audience together. and the swift government and society institute and others who have made this possible through their financial support. the carnegie endowment is grateful to all of them. most important way, i want to thank all of you for joining us. a day like this depends on those who have traveled great distances to join us. we are particularly grateful for them to read we are delighted to have all of you here for what will be an important date in which we will all leave wiser.

with that said, it is my pleasure to turn the floor over to the head of our program, marwan muasher, who is monitoring this first panel. welcome today. [applause] >> thank you very much, jessica. before we start, we take care of some administrative issues. i want to remind everybody to have their cell phones off and to use your translation machine -- press six for english and eight for arabic. we will start this first session with building regimes [inaudible]. to do this, we have representatives from countries,

egypt and tunisia, and two others who are trying to put in place political reforms from above in order to avoid transit -- transitions like what happened in egypt and jordan. we are going to hear from all of them. let me just briefly introduce the minister of communications in the new government to my immediate right, nabil alkofahi, to my immediate left, moammar gadhafi, and to my far left is

mustapha elkhalfi a member in tunis from their party. many questions, of course, are on everybody's mind. as we go through these transitions, the questions of peaceful rotation of power, rights for women and minorities, -- these will be talked about by consensus of majority. the economic programs of the islamic doctrine -- what are the programs about and what do they look like? what do the islamic prince was in government meet? will sharia lobby the only source of legislation in?

as jessica said, are citizens allowed to change their mind, or is it a one-way street? these questions and more are on everybody's mind. islamic standards are being held to high standards. i think that these questions also need to be asked from a secular party as well as islamic party. what i thought we would do is start with the countries that have undergone transitions. we start with tunisia because it is the first good we moved to

egypt and see what experience the egyptians have, and then we talk about morocco and jordan -- two countries that have not undergone transition in the process from above. what i thought of abuse as questions argue. i thought i would ask questions argue. please limit your time to talk to 15 minutes. there are a lot of people in the room. i am sure all of them are interested in hearing your view. we can limit the initial remarks about 10 minutes each. i will start with tunisia. how is the process in tunisia going today? you feel confident that the transition that is put in place, how would you characterize it?

>> the environment is good for this and for the efforts and conducting this dialogue. [inaudible]. we are discussing here the islamic performance and individual freedoms -- [inaudible] -- the need for expression. the basic issues that need to be clarified to everybody so that we are able to draft were to establish a democratic system that will allow freedoms and allow society that is

deep-rooted and fed up with these islamic and arab parties. i say that we did this revolution in tunisia is not violent. [inaudible] there is also the concept of fear relative about change. in this meeting, we were quickly able to organize freedoms.

when i say the arab world, i mean that that is the first time elections were held to express the win of the people through ballot boxes and the will of the people. it was a peaceful, civil revolution. in time we were able to build a regime or system that is the beginning of constitution -- constitutional assembly. it includes all parties in the society -- political parties, islamic, liberals, -- and the constituent assembly, which reflects the reality of tunisian society.

also in a short period of time, we were able to draft more revolution -- a revelation to govern tunisia for years so that we can build a democratic system that will be based on freedom of democracy within the system we have elected the chairman of that particular assembly. then we formed a government, most importantly, about the government is the coalition that combined the movement and a group of parties -- also the republican party, which is a liberal party. this common nation provides islamic, arabs, and liberals.

this is an element that means that we have ended the dictatorship. we have also drafted a new constitution. now we formed six constituent committees -- a committee for freedoms and rights, and the committee for the legislative principles, finances, and a committee to stop thinking about -- we work on the conciliation measurements. we seek that this constitution presents all tunisians and all

the people all of the revolution in tunisia. [inaudible] -- to expand and care for a consensus among the people by all parties, particularly from another movement we have the majority. it is a portion of representation of the size of different parties represented. the parties differ greatly, so we therefor want to build on the very basic things in the constitution. that is the islamic state in

tunisia. to make sure that it needs the needs of all parties. islam and [inaudible] would be the main foundations. the other thing is to guarantee individual freedoms in the discussion about the type of regime, whether it will be a republican system or a different system. there should be a constitutional core that will monitor application of all actions. we should be careful to have a higher committee that will oversee all elections -- it will not be left to the ministry of interior, but there will be a committee that will oversee the information sector, and there

will also be the effort to maintain the neutrality of the judicial system. so we have also an independent commission that will organize information of the media in tunisia, so that there will be a guarantee that a dictatorship will never return back to tunisia. this is a great day in tunisia. there is a commission for [inaudible], in which the women in tunisia gain a lot so that the revolution -- was built on the shoulders of young people and women. there is a book on -- the

republic of regime, democratic system -- [inaudible] to conduct with state and society. we envision this as democratic, which is not different from [inaudible], but it would be a measure to employ it. perhaps we can do so within islam within a sound manner. the connection between values of islam and humanitarian gains in

what was thought by the human mind in the modern societies that have emigrated from outside the islamic domain. there is an agreement for islam and all these points. to respect them within islam, to respect the rights of minorities and christians and jewish minorities, which are small, but they are accepted within the society. we do not want sectarian strife between the different villages. all the minority groups enjoy their rights like everyone else. we are careful about the

movement to respect individual freedoms and public freedoms and the freedoms of women and rights of minorities. all parties agree on the values of citizenship based and founded on islam and islamic [inaudible]. this needs consensus in europe. recently, we have represented the idea of the constitution based on sharia law. legal reference towards the constitution would be the islamic sharia law. there is another project that talks about tunisia needing to be independent as a country.

islam an array that remains the main language. this is a political [inaudible], and there is no need -- there was a great discussion in tunisia and debates of discussion to include [inaudible] in the constitution. but there are other movements that consider that this will divide and split the society and sharia law is confusing and -- upholds the justice and the main ideas of religion to maintain

religion and good to have all the main points of religion. there are lots of scholars who talk about freedom and justice -- the fundamental pillars of islam. we have confusing points about sharia law. it calls for an polygamy and it is looked upon as [inaudible]. with that, we decided to postpone the review of sharia

law that was accepted by all parties, and we have bypassed this debate. on the constitution we will be sufficed with that chapter of the constitution by excluding sharia law is the fundamental. we should do this. we want to combine all tunisia's society and, as i said, there are many particularly in the public system, whether it is presidential order the relationship between the executive and the society for a woman's rights. we accept them. also the freedom of the press and the media. this is a group that the move --

movement has seized in the constitution. the republican system that will be based on that administration and freedom of expression. coercion should not be employed, not necessarily -- especially no coercion in the choice of individuals and their way of living. these are fundamental issues. there are also challenges in which the government now faces. we want to expand the government pays, so now the government has

submitted a program that includes social, political, aspects. these are priorities in the society and, of course, employment is a top priority so that we will have to work on supporting and enhancing the mystic and foreign investments. of course, the previous regime had a breakdown in the different parts of society. the new government has change this equation by being more acceptable, provincial development is now [inaudible], and security and safety would be in the house also.

traditional justice is big and we hope that we can carry on reconciliation. we have developed [inaudible] that will talk about justice and we'll talk about a number of issues such as reconciliation and other things that will be within the context of law. nobody should be above the law. these are number of challenges that we face politically, and of course, in the political arena, how can we manage this by consensus and through dialogue? how can we combine all the different parties? we 3 how can we combine all the different parties?

we believe what had happened in tunisia has been good so far. the army in tunisia has played a positive role in the revolution. the army could have taken charge of the country, but it supported the revolution and protected the people from the forces of the dictator. we also supported the elections to be free of fraud. the commanders of leadership with the army and government, we believe they acted positively and shared authority -- [inaudible] cooperation with the government. we want to build a civil society

and state. one that will be very sacred -- one that will be getting the sanctity from not unseen power, but rather it will be from the people -- taking care of the people's interests are at it will not be a military state, it will be a civil society. this is the number of issues that i had tried to briefly mention to you. i would welcome any questions to present you clarifications about the situation in tunisia and about our position.

[applause] >> thank you very much for the presentation of what is going on in tunis. we talked about some key concepts that i think many people would like to hear. in this audience and beyond. he talked about the assembly, the coalition government, the consensus process, sharia law not being the only source of legislation, individual rights, women's rights, all of these are, of course, very important as we build a new state in tunisia. how do we compare this to egypt? egypt is facing difficulty with

the constituents group and the constitution. yesterday there was a presidential candidate [inaudible]. how do you match that against what we heard from tunisia and the program in egypt? >> [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: in the name of god the merciful, [inaudible] --

>> before we talk about the implications of took place in egypt, to make it clear to the american agents and others, they did not start on january 25. it started almost 200 years ago when we wanted to punish the british and we had to occupy egypt. [laughter] >> that is very much the interconnected we are talking about today. [inaudible] we need to understand the relationship of the different powers of the state. all of a sudden, -- here you go. we have a compromise in front of

us. what do we do it then? unfortunately, the colonial committee decided he -- to do both of that. not only in the minds of the egyptians, but in the culture. there were three directions. one direction that was proposed and developed by the [inaudible] is the only way to look like and be like [inaudible]. that was the only option offered by those who believe in the [inaudible]. that was very important in the development of democracy. these issues took place during

the colonial era and is seen until today. these directions are trying to come to a common understanding. the second direction is that we have nothing to do with europe. leave egypt to the egyptians. the third direction, which i personally present and presented when the muslim brotherhood came into existence. no, [inaudible]. at the same time we cannot ignore the involvement.

[inaudible] >> since then, [inaudible] -- the problem was not shaken. egyptians went millions in the streets of every city in asia on trent egypt.. -- [inaudible] >> it was more the system. thank god the system collapsed. i think the problem in egypt is not the problem of the dictator. it is the problem of oppression

and dictatorship. egyptians have to struggle not only with the downfall of the system, but the ideas that kept system going after the system collapsed -- there was a [inaudible] on march 19. what do we do? there were lots of discussions. do we make the presidency [inaudible] and to the elections -- a committee was formed. it was presented in a public referendum for the egyptian people. egyptians decided to go [inaudible].

elections for rising institutions, and for the president. we want to turn this from a culture of o. passion into a culture of democracy. for those who would like to say why did it take so long in tunisia or? there was an understanding. egyptians have a short memory. if we give them a long time, maybe they will forgive the revolution. [laughter] and then they can come back and control us again. [laughter] we forgot that this is not going to be the case anymore. a egyptians are determined to live in a free, democratic rule of law.

honestly speaking, we have suffered a lot. i was a literature teacher. some of my conversations were recorded. they had one problem with my english. it is problematic for us. we don't know how we [inaudible]. the president asked of him, why do you think it is from the muslim brotherhood? he said when he speaks in english -- we would like to do this in sharia law and then he puts it in his only wish. you can imagine the suffering.

with so many egyptians and the tunisian experience -- many egyptians would like to live free even if we become hungry. the freedom and justice party moves forward. to do what they have to do to raise the reform. we are happy to be living in free society. living in free society after oppression is very [inaudible]. i did not think it would be that difficult as a member of the parliament. that requires a lot of preparation.

the election that reviews -- if the parties in the egyptian parliment. the same as you do here in the congress. 51% gives you the chance to control all the committees. in egyptian experience, because it is a free democracy, we want the participants -- participation of all egyptians. we want representatives from each party and we came and we had meetings with the different parties of how to form the different committees.

out came the sharia parties. [inaudible] 50% of the vote. but we didn't think of it as egyptians versus the minority. coming out of oppression, requires the [inaudible]. in creating this balance that they spoke about at the beginning. honoring our own parts -- our own culture. creating this unique alternative that i like to call the egyptian alternative. we are moving now into the [inaudible] with the constitution.

this constitution does not want to the majority. it cannot. the majority controls the parliament. that is fine. it can leave the government after a few years. the constitution goes longer than that. it affects you to generations of egypt. i was there when the formation of the committee that we voted on gay people [inaudible] the right to allow hundreds of representatives of the egyptian society. there were many options -- [inaudible]. it was open for us, so we listen to everyone. we have certain parties that had

100% and other parties that had hundreds out of the people's assembly. we would like to see this pluralistic alternative that we have in egypt with a 5050 arrangement. 50% from within, 50% from without. i remember i was there when i spoke and i said this is a historic moment in egypt that we agreed together. over 65% of egyptians participated in the election. it was a historical moment. some liberal, did not even wait for the first meeting of the institution committee so they could put the alternative on

paper. this is within 24 hours. some of them decided to withdraw. we were shocked. all of egypt asked the question, why did you [inaudible]. the people's assembly elected you to defend them in the constitution. i would be happy to discuss with you. after the election, the minister of the council is going to give the majority party of the right to form the government. the only party of majority is the people's assembly. to our surprise, services to the people of egypt deteriorated to

[inaudible]. nothing changes. where do we go from their? we demanded votes of new counselors for the transitional government must so that the majority parties can come together and form a government that serves the needs of the people. the majority of egyptians -- the majority counsel refused to give the majority party the right to form the government. only heard the stories -- [inaudible] -- in any illegal procedure. [inaudible]. the presidential committee after

declaring the [inaudible] of the election. also people working for democracy in egypt, that is one reason why it the freedom and justice party is [inaudible]. the democratic rules -- finally comes the presidency we expect in the coming months major changes to happen in egypt. we are determined to have egyptian society because it is realistic and we would like to reflect [inaudible] not only what the constitution but in all others. in egypt we do not have minority. we don't look at [inaudible] as minorities. they are part of the egyptian society. they have the same rights, in

fact, we would like to call them all egyptians. that is the egyptian way of looking at it. on behalf of the freedom and justice party, we are looking for alternatives and a better way of creating -- and that requires a lot of discussion with other parties. [inaudible]. that is why the parliament is elected by the people. a government of rule over the people? that is a strange idea for islam. we never look at her leaders as divine. imposing it in egypt is very much unfair.

we believe in [inaudible]. this is different from the tunisian experience. we are not arguing whether sharia is there or not. whether we put islamic [inaudible] or [inaudible]. it would make their lives really difficult. we are not interested in that. what does islamic sharia offer is? the objective of the sharia. the implication of the sharia rather than the specific [inaudible]. that means democracy, that means

freedom, that means the rule of law. [inaudible] how much wartime? >> one minute. >> you have one minute. >> other challenge is? there are many challenges. the military council is a challenge. almost everyone in the world is now -- the military is now giving away from politics. we would like to address the complex. we would like for civilians to be able to control the lives the way they want to [inaudible]. -- as military ruling of the egyptian lives.

the presidency, the government, the constitution -- we need to be able to a culture of oppression into a culture of freedom. we need to be able to honor our human dignity, respect our differences -- because we believe that these two principles honor our dignity and respect our differences -- these are indispensable convictions for egyptians, national peace, and world peace. >> thank you. >> thank you very much [applause] >> we moved to the two monarchies that are trying to put in place. yesterday i was talking to the minister and he said

[inaudible]. -- and not the revolutions that are going on. it presents a third way where we have a monarchy, we would like to keep the monarchy, but within the monarchy we are trying to put in place a series and sustainable path and to hear about the moroccan experience -- we would like to hear from mustapha elkhalfi. what is your thinking on this? >> i appreciate the invitation. and i think that -- we are succeeding in what you call what you call revolution and the old

system of political [inaudible] grid ignoring the democratic man's and in the arab world and local. [inaudible] what you call informing. taking into account and leading the country towards reform -- performing the [inaudible]. the position of the array that culture. dealing with past abuses and [inaudible]. integrating economic growth

within the political process. the role of the monarchy was [inaudible]. we are moving towards a new generation of political reform. genuine democratic reform. at the beginning, all countries in the region -- when you measure the youth movement, [inaudible]. they went to the street asking for [inaudible]. the king, the monarchy decides what to do. there was the march 9 speech when the king decides to open

the gate for a competition of elections and providing new policies that address political issues like moral identity, like the issue of government -- linking accountability with responsibility. dealing with the issue of having an elected government. at the beginning, there was some skeptical viewers. the skeptical views said this will be a limited reform. one is beginning to see real changes in the government. but what happened after we published the constitutional commission.

july 1 -- people will approve a new constitution. this was the first step of the march night speech -- march 9 speech. [inaudible] we perceive in drafting a bill of rights. ..

>> are we going to escape from the challenges of the democratic reform or not? are we going to succeed in giving the voice to the people, to make a change and to see the results of these changes? and this is what has happened. be resolution, not the resolution of the street. november 25 elections gave the party the vast majority, of more

than 1 million s. voted for the pgd. 107 seats in the parliament, but we shouldn't ignore that only 45 persons of the american society went to vote. and this effort starts and should work in implementing the constitution and widening the trust, the confidence of the public on the political process. after this election, the king decided to terminate the chief of the government from the party that won the election. in the constitution, it's not

clear that the chief of the government should be secretary of the party. the king decides democratically the constitution and to terminate the general secretary of the party. and many secular, liberal, leftist, nationalist, islamist, they see this move as a good thing, a positive thing. and a positive signal that morocco is moving toward reforming gradually, establishing a real democratic system. after we succeed in the coalition that brings together leftist parties, the nationalist parties and also a political

party with -- marginalist also with the pgd. a coalition that until now was working 100 days after the nomination of the new government in january of 2012. what has happened during this process from february 20, 2011 until now? it was a long process that morocco is moving toward a genuine democracy. what is the element of this moroccan exception? i think three factors explain what we call the moroccan exception. neither revolution, neither the status quo. the first factor is, as i

mentioned earlier, the role of the monarchy. historically, the monarchy played a role as any -- unify the country, has religious legitimacy, they gave him the ability for the moderate interpretation of islam and then came mother he with our islamic references. but decides these two things, unifying the country, the new interpretations of religion to meet the challenges of modernity. the monarchy played a crucial role in preserving political -- after independence.

and even after the collapse of the soviet union, has played a role in accelerating the process of the emergence of what we call in 1997, 1998, the democratic transition, with the government. and now, the monarchy is playing a third role. leaving the country toward more democratic reforms. the second factor is the existence of a very dynamic, active civil society. almost 15,000 of the associations are working in morocco. feminist groups, human rights, youth associations, religious

association, development association are working in this society and they succeed in creating mitigation between the societies and embracing the ideas of political reforms and a culture of citizenship, a culture of human rights within the societies. the civil society has played a great role since the beginning in morocco. and pushing the country toward many political and social reforms. and now they are playing a great role in the process of implementation of the new constitution. and the civil society has been -- by

there is the umar party, and others. but mainly the idea that, since the middle of the '90s, rocco decides to integrate parts of the islamic modernists. it's not quite what happened in tunisia when the tunisians decided to -- the islamic movement or in egypt when they decided to maintain them and their control and to admit them, to marginalize them. in the case of morocco, no. and i think that morocco, with the arab spring, took advantage of this policy.

the policy of integration, and not only toward the islamic groups and moderates but also towards the other groups, toward the leftist groups. and i think now one of the elements that helped morocco in accelerating the process of the rehabilitation of the new constitution is this culture of integration. why? because this culture succeeds and the culture of working together between all the different continents of the political spectrum. the culture that helped us in establishing a strong governmental coalition. what are the main challenges of the future? >> we have five minutes. >> we have four major interests,

and the first is the implementation of the new constitution. yes, we succeed in escaping from the risks or the challenges of the arab spring that lead to the collapse of the regime's. but the roadmap that has helped us in doing so is the new constitution, and the new constitution is not only some, but we lose it for -- use it for public diplomacy. the new consultation is the ingredients, the element of reshaping their relationship between the executive branch, the legislative branch, and the judiciary branch. the reshaping of our system of governance is the outcome of the implementation of the

constitution, and we have only five years. the new constitution clearly said that we should adopt several -- that will implement the new constitution. for example, freedom of press and freedom of expression. in the new constitution in article xxviii is clear, that we should provide all guarantees for the freedom of expression, so we would change the price code. that is the governance should encourage the emergence of an independent democratic counsel that will organize the journalists, so we should do so. we should stop intervening. all matters related to the organization of the media, and having real independence and

democratic and rational and responsible media in our country. and this is one of the goals and the objectives of the new constitution. like this, in the judiciary level, there were many changes that the constitution is calling for. and we are working to -- recently our government decided to adopt the international arguments against kidnapping, and we are moving to embrace what the international community in terms of the recognition of the basic human rights. we are moving towards this direction but it's not only changing the text but also establishing new councils and

institutions that the new constitution has left out. one of them is strengthening the rule of the integrity of the institution. what is fighting corruption? one of the biggest problems we suffered from it is the spread of corruption. the new constitution clearly recognized this problem and said, that is what we should have, an independent, very effective, credible to lift the moroccan policies against corruption. last year it was 85 in the international transparency index. in 2002, we were 52. it is a big problem for us. and we can't escape from this reality. the only way to recognize it and

to present real, credible effective policies to deal with this. not only this institution, and neither institution related to enhancing the political participation and social participation, economic participation of the women toward real parity in our society and in our political system. one of the problems that we are facing is that we have very limited political participation of women, and only we are using a system of affirmative action to enhance the political participation of the women. now we are working to develop new policies.

so the first challenges the implementation of the new constitution. the second challenge is working to have real organization and decentralization. and that -- past we have had regions but with limited power of the administrative level. now we are working to develop political, economic, social, cultural and originalist nation. this will be a period of transition toward resolving conflicts and allowing people in the region to manage their affairs and to develop economically and socially. the third challenge that we are facing is providing general, real answers to the economic and social problems. the people when they went to the

street, asking for democracy because they understand the link between lack of democracy and the social and economic problems. employment, health problems, educational problems, all these problems. the new governments dealing with these critical issues. and since two weeks we have debated in the parliament, the development of new national -- related to provide the industry, financial resources to the poor people for health and education. and this is one of the biggest challenges. poverty, illiteracy, employment, health services and we are working on this. and the fourth challenge, the

last, is taking advantage from the new political environment that is emerging in the region, to develop a real regional cooperation between all of these countries. we think that this is so crucial for us and we should work on this because we can't stay with the economic problem, energy problem, only by using the old policies. also we should take into account that europe is suffering from a deep economic crisis. exploitation, money transfers, all of them in the past was connected with what is happening in europe. now, we should develop regional cooperation with all countries in order to succeed in resolving

the economic and social problems. thank you so much. >> thank you very much. [applause] >> we are going to hear from the last speaker, from jordan and then opened the floor to questions for about a half an hour. dr. nabil we heard from the minister about what is going on in morocco. jordan has also been attempting the reform process from above perhaps at a slower pace. there have been constitutional amendments but the government does not have an election yet. the elections have not taken place. there is no prospect of an elected government coming out even after the elections. how do you could -- the processes in morocco and jordan? a lot of people also think the muslim brotherhood in jordan have not then perhaps as categorical, as clear as its counterpart in tunisia or in

morocco or in egypt about the commitment to diverse pluralism and the commitment to a peaceful rotation of power. so perhaps you can shed some light on the muslim brotherhood program in the country and how do you see the reform process going forward? [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: thank you, and with respect to the three experiences that are speakers just shared with us, think there is one comment, which is that the arab peoples have suffered from the same problems. these people decided alone and without any assistance, not from the west in particular, to stand up and exercise its will and not

to remain on the margins of human civilization. the arabs decided to be partners for the west in human civilization. the situation in jordan is very similar to what is happening in morocco, but a little unique on its own. and the common factor is that both monarchies do not have blood on their hands, and this is the main common factor in this is why both regimes decided to institute reform. and in jordan in particular there is the problem of corruption, which exceeds the gnp, and jordan has high levels of education, which are very similar to western nations, but

we have a better deficit that exceeds 65% of the total gnp, and there there is also unemployment and poverty, which exceeds 20% of the labor force and the populations. certainly, there are positive aspects in favor of the regime in jordan, but over the last 10 years, several of these achievements were destroyed, and reform in jordan started not just with the arab spring, but there were previous years in which the muslim brotherhood took part in the political process. and it had also a very difficult experience, the first and foremost of which is the fraudulent elections in 2007,

which is why we decided to boycott the 2010 elections, which produced a parliament that doesn't represent the people, not in terms of the political framework or the people. that could possibly ensure they are our responsibilities towards the people. unfortunately, would like to say that the regime in jordan, even though we are still hoisting the slogan of reforming the regime, the caning in the government and parliament and institutions are still stalling when it comes to reform and that is why the regime in jordan is attempting, in spite of the lack of loud voices, protests until now continuing in jordan, even to this date.

and, next to syria, jordan is the second arab country in which protests are still active and call for reforms in marches and demonstrations to obtain the rights, because the constitution stipulates that the people are the source of legislation. but the constitution limits all the popular authorities of the king, and the ministers are also the ministers of the king, and so are the forces, the military forces, and the king has the right to dissolve parliament and also to -- ministers and take decisions to go to war separately.

therefore, the reform movement in egypt is an attempt to reform the constitution, to return, to restore to the people his rights as the constitution has amendments between 50 to and the present time, and the people are no longer the source of legislation. we would say that we are before two main problems. the first dilemma, it's a dilemma that relates to the political system and the fact that the regime itself is not serious about reform, but they respond to, partially to some of the pressure out on the streets, and also responding to the general state of unrest in the region. that is why there is a

continuous attempts to absorb the reform movement and overpower it. for example, the king whose head was involved in the biggest fraud, election fraud, in 1987. in 2007, he was involved in the scandal and yet, this prime minister was brought back to the reform movement. but the people, the people refuse to this government and the reforms it has proposed. another government was brought to power, and also this government was robbed of any powers. even though it is led by an international judge, a well-respected judge, and he promised to reform the election law, which is the access for

reform in jordan. but, the government continues to isolate parliament and refuses to recognize its powers to institute any reform in jordan, or that would lead to annie political competition that would put an end to corruption in the state. therefore, this is a very important issue for us in jordan and we hope that the jordanian people will continue to pressure the political system so that it can institute three changes, so that the king would also be a direct source of power, but also would shoulder his responsibility towards the people and would be the head of government, and also a source of unity for all forces and

patterns and ideologies. but, we insist that the king should be part of the efforts to solve the problem in jordan. some insist he is part of the problem in jordan. and, many of them tried to even circumvent these reforms. but we in jordan are not very different from other arab countries and that we would like to have the institution and political pluralism and god almighty who has sent his religion to us, the islamic world and jordan did not witness anything in its history over 1400 years that is called religious oppression.

our christian brothers continue to live among us and peace and social harmony, and we don't say this person is christian and this person is muslim. the islamic movement has also had its own experience in supporting and getting the support of the christians in jordan, and the islamic movement has several opinions also electing christian representatives. and we also have witnessed over 20 years since the formation of parties in 1990. we have seen several coalitions that have overcome a their religious and ideological differences among the parties. and we also -- the islamic

others have also stood by all laws that call for freedoms and pluralism. unfortunately, some of these issues have not been dealt with. for example political reforms have not been dealt with so far, including some very important procedural changes. for example,, for example in the constitution in the 21st century, to have the ability to tribunal that would put people on trial on the accusation of harming the reputation of the state. but this is being done by the state security court, even to

this date. and these accusations are still commonplace. there is intervention and control by the intelligence apparatus in particular. the army is very peaceful as far as the political aspect is concerned but unfortunately the general intelligence service is still authoritarian and continues to play this role in terms of the strangulation and the oppression against people. and jordan continues to suffer from targeting. for example it in a person like myself, when i travel to such a place, i am being subjected to interrogation. but we would like to seek to achieve in jordan is to achieve

stability in the country, and restore the powers of the people, and also find or establish an electoral law that guarantees all jordanians. some of you are not aware of the characteristics of jordanian society. some jordanians come from the west of the river jordan and they came to jordan after the israeli occupation. this is considered half of the population and they are being used as a way to threaten all jordanians. but we believe that all jordanians of various origins have overcome this problem. another issue that is being used to threaten people is also to raise the spectrum of the islamic movement. but we have to stress that this movement has made major

contributions to the history of jordan, and also in other countries. and has made several sacrifices. what we seek to achieve in particular is to hold elections in the near future according to a fair law that encourages political participation in jordan and the peaceful transition of power. the islamic movement is the only part in jordan that has this peaceful transition of leadership, even women in the islamic brotherhood are being elected to a leadership position. this is not a language we use in jordan. we don't hear about the problem of women's participation in jordan. and therefore, it's not appropriate for jordanians to pay the price.

>> jordanians feel shame that the heads of the intelligence services that were appointed by the king, and i would say holds the highest authority in jordan, to be tried on fraud charges. this is a major problem and challenge, and also harms the integrity of the government, and also with respect to the jordanian economy, it suffers from structural imbalance. we have a trade deficit, and this is equally dangerous and serious, because it shapes the foundations of the values and the way in which the government supports its own citizens.

and it forces people to be loyal to the government in return for the subsidies that the government provides to the people. this is also a challenge that we at the muslim brotherhood would like to address, and we know that free elections and fair elections, this would be an issue that would be addressed. and we also believe that if such free elections were held, we as the muslim brotherhood will make the same gains as others in neighboring countries have made. and we believe that this is a right it will be realized no matter what. if the elections were to be held according to fair, a fair

system, we are not seeking a law that favors us, but we would like to see a fair election law. one last problem i would like to point to, which is the arab-israeli conflict and its use in the internal politics of jordan, because it is being used as one of the reasons and justifications for the regime and instituting the reforms, and usually they reform has always been deferred until such time that the arab-israeli conflict is soft and invited its importance to the air people and also the jordanians. but it's not justification for the deferral of reform in

jordan. we would like to say these find ears among decision-makers in the west. thank you. >> thank you very much a. let's open it up. i will take three or four questions at a time because i'm sure there are lots of them and then -- please make it a very short question because we really don't have time, and address it to one of the participants it possible, please. can you wait for the microphone? >> i am from morocco and i work with the world bank. my question is to -- as we see in the united states the economy

plays a major role in the elections and probably this one as well. do you think the performance of the djd would be determined mostly on progress, that you would be able to accomplish in the economy regardless of all the other reforms? >> thank you. >> do you want identification? churchy ruben from "the philadelphia inquirer." i would like to address my question to mr. dardery. you put forward a very moderate position for the justice party in egypt but some of your leaders, and i'm including it mr. shaw chair have said things that sound much less moderate than what you have put forward. mr. muasher referred to one of them win he said implementing sharia remains the number one objective. he has also taught about, in the

past, jihad against the zionists and also your leadership has called in the past, in 2007, for a sort of guardian council that would oversee all parliamentary laws and make sure that they were in alignment with sharia. i know that they have still dropped back, but what i want to know is, now that's freedom and justice is the leading party, do they stand by what you said, or are they closer to what your presidential candidate says? >> in the back. yes, please sir. >> thank you. i am from algeria.

in 1991 after the algeria spring, unfortunately which was stopped by the military. to the brother from tunisia and the one from asia how you see the future relationship between the civilian and military relationship? are there any red lines that the political system will have to cross in order to continue this democratic process? the same question goes to the monarchies. with the monarchy and military, how would you see because particularly in morocco, the king was courageous in engaging in such reform, but how far do you see the situation going? the experience we had in

algeria, what really was the peaceful change was stopped by the military security establishment and their allies. so how would you see the future, because it is a wonderful -- worrying about the future. >> one more question maybe. yes. >> i am with the center for the study of islamic democracy. this is a wonderful event and it's amazing today to have all of you here in washington but also to witness what's going on in the arab world finally. my two questions very quickly are to dr. dardery from egypt. the big question now is aligning

with the new power, the salafist party or the second party. will we have more allies in the government and big question, who would they align with? this would really determine the future of the direction of egypt and the organization of egypt. and my question to mr. al coffee from morocco. we heard a lot of abuses from the new constitution recently and the lawyers who are trying to make a case against the king himself for using the new constitution. do you have any comments about that and what is the government doing about this? thank you. >> who wants to take the first shot? >> economically, i think that this is the most important

challenge of the government because answers to the youth problem our employment issues and real economic prosperity and real economic development. for this reason the government has put this issue -- aftergood government and fighting corruption. the main problem in our country is the lack of good governance. we presented almost 25 measures related to enhancing the climate of investment in the country, and we succeeded three weeks ago in developing a partnership between the private sector and the government.

huge reforms in investment environments, it and the financial and legislative institutional aids of the government towards the private sector in finding new markets, exporting their products and working with other companies at the international level and also starting work to revive many free-trade arguments in many countries like the united states and to launch real investments on this level. besides this, we are working with small business companies in the country, because we think that the driving force of fighting poverty and fighting unemployment is to invest in small business. companies, enterprises in our country will develop projects on

this level based on a measures, working with them, reforming the educational system in order to create some complementarity between the market of jobs with the system so we have a program on this and we we are working ot in close partnership with the there. concerning the second question, i think one of the things that create some specificity to the moroccan case is that we drafted a constitution before the election. before going to the election, we dropped the constitution and the constitution has determined power, relationship between different centers of power and has established -- acclimate

sand the institutional tools of cooperation between monarchy and the government. after the election, we succeeded in implementing this and we have successful corporation since almost four months. this cooperation is based on the constitution, and also is based on confidence that we succeed since the '90s. when we started working in the political arena and participating in the elections. for this reason, the political party, we decided in 1997 elections and also in 2002 elections and to limit our

participation and tube -- the goal is, we should enhance the confidence between us and the political elites. otherwise, we will have experiences that other countries see and we should be so careful and building this confidence because it is the essence of the implementation of the new constitution. the third question? >> please quickly because we don't have time. i'm going to ask everybody to ask one question only and limit the answers to one answer. we really don't have time. >> we are suffering from the old laws that have been developed and the new constitution era and now we are working to implement

the new constitution. the new laws have been drafted. for example, the establishment of an independent democrat but -- democratic counsel for press. we agree with the major editors and journalists unions about the new law at this level so this is why i said the first democratic challenge is the implementation of the constitution, and we should do it quickly. this year, the major laws that would implement is not only the text and the articles but also the experience of the new constitution. >> thank you surety for asking this question and thank you for the statement you made at the end of your question. sometimes i think i was invited to california a few years ago to speak about islam and america and my by host introduced me as,

we are happy today to have a moderate muslim. then after the presentation i asked, why did you call me a moderate muslim? she said people who don't believe that muslims can be moderate. let me state it very clearly, i am really honored to be a student of the muslim brotherhood. what they told me today is what they learned from the muslim brotherhood, educational books. i am a product of the movement and i am not going to do something i don't believe. that is the platform i ran on election for and that is what we studied in our educational materials. this is how our understanding is. but very important, they are two issues that you mentioned. the council, we are trying to move from being a jailed opposition and to people in

power. so when you are in jail you have a jail mentality. when you are out of there, you have a different mentality. why don't we have a constitutional court? why don't we have a court that can decide these matters but the two important issues you raise are the sharia and the jihad. i strongly encourage a dialogue of these because it's very important and i would like to encourage the muslims among you to engage in a dialogue with non-muslim friends within the society so we can come to understand. sharia is not in english because when it is translated into english, sharia means legal law. so we are ruled by a long they have to have a love. you call it islamic or you call it secular or call at this or call it that. i emphasize that it is different. it has been there 1400 years.

sometimes it's succeeded to produce a great civilization and sometimes it they'll. the people fail to utilize it to produce a great civilization. it's a human experience of understanding and it can produce alternatives but sometimes it does not produce the best alternatives. what does jihad mean? take it out of the arabic word and give the english translation. i am doing jihad sitting here under this. this is an intellectual jihad. jihad means exerting an effort. if you study, a few e.u. drink but don't drink too much. jihad is really a whole concept that identifies a muslims journey towards the universe, towards other people and,

concerning the liberals. we look at it differently. we don't look at it as this versus this. this. this is not a black-and-white thing. i think if we have an eject an agenda, the egyptian agenda has priorities. we will work with them and we will work with the liberals and if we -- items with a lower party. we are really trying to create equal senses. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: a question from the brother from algeria with respect to the military civil society. in tunisia, the military plays a

national role in defending democracy and taking part in development, and also preserving the territorial integrity of tunisia. therefore, the military has a role to play in politics. the military and security forces don't even take part in elections. they cannot be candidates in elections and cannot even vote. and like all civil societies, we have the ministry of defense, but they do not play a role. the role is limited to the security aspect and they cannot run for elections. they cannot vote. and this is what happens is it's a civil society in the free world.

of course you had suffered from a military coup. for example what happened in algeria, the military is a big rob lyman i believe even in egypt the military institution is a problem. and at the council continues to exist, then there will be no revolution in egypt. their revolution would not have succeeded. as for the red light and tunisia, the red line for us is no violence. and any organization or any party that engages in violence is a red line, and the law is above everyone, and also torture for example, the human, the physical rights and integrity of the human being is important.

we received reports after the revolution that there were instances of physical abuse and the government opened an investigation into this matter. the results will be -- all involved parties and the head of government was very clear that any person who engages in torture will be held accountable. there is also respect for human rights, and also there will be no return to oppression and corruption, and there are several issues. be a revolution is followed by a period of insecurity and chaos, but we continue to try to return to normal life and to solve

problems, and also there is improvement in this aspect. but it will need time and the program of the new government that will be introduced this week will also contribute to peace and security, and also to encourage investment and return to normalcy in tunis and thank you. >> who is that? i can't see. i don't see any women. [laughter] my name is joseph, and if i look at history in the middle east and north africa, there is very little democracy and as an american i'm a bit confused. so i ask you, can you please

provide a vivid example with sharia law promoting democracy? thank you. >> my question is to you. it seems like you out a ball of you have experienced political -- and you have served 16 years in a prison and were in prison for a long time. so my question is, what did that provide for you, that time personally and as a political figure and how does that shape -- i'm sure there are many people like you coming from that. how does that shape the political landscape and what kind of struggle do you personally go through as well as how does that shape your political view as a politician? thank you.

>> the woman in the back over there. yes, you. >> i am from egypt and i have a question for the jordanian representative. i know that jordan does not have sectarian issues that sometimes lead to sectarian violence is in egypt but i know there's another set of issues, ideological or palestinian versus jordanian. how does that impact the agenda of the muslim brotherhood and in garnishing their support? thank you. >> thank you. my question is for a doctor mustapha elkhalfi. this is a matter for concern here in washington based on the islamic, muslim brotherhood's position vis-à-vis between

jordan and israel so my question to you is, if you were in governance, how would you deal with the general jordanian and israeli relations and how when you interact with american-led peace process is? do we have a reason to be concerned or will we see a more pragmatic muslim brotherhood? thank you. >> let's let's start with doctors nabil. [speaking in native tongue] >> translator: as muslims, we believe that the religious or ethnic diversity is in richmond for society, and perhaps it's one of the most distinctive characteristics of american society. we believe that the problem, the

jordanian palestinian problem is just an illusion to hinder the reform process and it's not a real problem. the islamic movement is the biggest component socially and politically that strikes a balance between the palestinians and the jordanians in jordan, and perhaps most other political parties are kind of polarized towards one particular group. there are parties in which there is a jordanian majority or palestinian majority. we believe that this is a very important, distinctive characteristic of the islamic movement, and it's usually feel

good for example in areas that are predominantly jordanian, fielded candidates who are of palestinian origin. i believe this is a plus and not a con. also, with respect to the other question, as a muslim movement we do not have a problem with israel. our problem problem with israel is political and it relates to the occupation of palestine. the jewish lived in all arab countries and continue to live in yemen for example and india and iraq. and even in bahrain. in that small country there are jewish and therefore depicting the problem of the arab-israeli conflict as a conflict between muslims and non-muslims is completely wrong. ..

and this will be a decision to be taken by the jordanian old tourette's on election of its own representatives and a government that will engage in foreign policy. this is the general framework of

our policy with respect to the private framework, before we talk about -- before anything we talk about ending the aggression, israeli aggression before the palestinian people and also the reason i bought the rights -- reserved rights about the palestinian people and also the return of the displaced and the refugees. based on your resolution 194. and also to restore all the rights of the palestinian refugees. and this is a very clear position that we at the muslim brotherhood at.knowledge or demands adopt and therefore are ending the aggression is a precondition for any further

action. >> also regarding our democracy, we say that democracy as a mechanism, regardless flake greek philosophy because i am pro democracy and these are the judicial dependence and the peaceful exchange of authorities and also the freedom of expression, political islam, all of these mechanisms in our division does not contradict islam at all. but if we go to the writings of mr. arthur's seat were accused of art are we -- we find in these ratings this new model centrists align, from western

thought a way that would not contradict the islamist thought. so there is an elite curt that represent domain. it for the muslim movements for the brotherhood and justice and development in morocco and reference for all of those scholars. and the centrist culture is that the democracy is a mechanism to adapt the principle of the shura on islam. that means it does not contradict his islam. the second point that was

mentioned by the lady is perhaps it is a matter that i sent 16 years in prison, six of them in isolation. i left my daughter at two years older than i i came out of prison, she had rdt can the baccalaureate degree. we have spent so many years on the date leadership. there was really authority for prisoners. they really are a harsh discipline for prisoners. this is not alluded to. the holy quran and thanks to god i came out of prison.

we were even deprived of personal visitations for 10 years i haven't had communication through even a glass window with my family. so we don't want a society with federalism orderly oppression -- suppression of freedoms. we are the essence of torture, places of torture. me and my buddy will never repeat this experience to violate the physical -- the bodily injury and may be. we suffered because we opposed the ben ali regime.

we represent the islamic efforts into niche. our project is against oppression. we have first suffered under repression and therefore we will never build anything but the project that is built on the freedom of individuals and human -- respect of human rights. so the question of freedoms, disses our platform. thank you. [applause] >> i thoroughly want to apologize for the many, many hands are raised. but we really are at a time. i want to encourage alternate go with the gas man, you know, talk to them throughout the intermission and during the day. we are going to have let's take a 25 minute break until 11:30 and then reconvene to talk about the constitution writing

project. thank you very much. [inaudible conversations] >> over the next three hours on c-span 2, booktv interviews three authors.

>> if you think of yourself as a family and if you think of yourself as a team. she said when i get a raise at work is so proud of me and it is like we got a raise, our family got a raise. i felt as though she had redefined providing to include with her husband doesn't she have a lot of respect for what her husband was doing.

>> illinoisan mother, maggie anderson and her family spent one year by an exclusively from black owned businesses. she wrote about the experience in the book called "our black year: one family's quest to buy black in america's racially dvided economy". >> host: mackey, this is quite the fascinating read. with an adventure for you and your family. take us to the beginning. over the origins? ticino would become a book? >> guest: we didn't know what would come out of this fantastic journey. it was really what you read, depreciate, naïve, nerdy couple trying to do something to pass by their tails. that is how it started. and when we made the pledge should do a four year, we thought maybe we would do this for a whole year. maybe we can check this

conversation we keep having amongst ourselves into the national dialogue. there were a lot of maybes that we had no idea the number one it would respond the way it did and that it would result in a book that wonderful people like you are actually reading and reviewing. so now, we didn't have any idea it would be at the period we did it as an experiment. we wanted this to really be an academically grounded as possible. a lot of folks have been talking about buying. we do it with a lot of rhetoric to be an experiment, a book, something lasting and that students can learn from. so we hope it would be a book, but we did not know that it would be. we kept this thing alive so long and now we have a chance to really make a something historic with the book is just fantastic. >> host: feature analyzing as

he went along? >> guest: i did a little bit and then i got too busy. i remember my husband was like you have to write this stuff down. i was like i know it's all in there. i know we will never forget this. but you know, little things like the first time i actually got in front of an audience spoke at a good friend's church. i journaled about that. it was a gutwrenching experience to actually present our little journey to a room of strangers and had no idea how they would respond. so i journaled about that. i journaled when we met some community leaders than they actually thanked us for what we were doing. i journaled when i got my first letter from a 7-year-old kitties that thank you for doing this. we used to write little things like that down, but for the most part the day today search and all the encounters that fantastic business owners and some of the not so fantastic as

this is state here. and this just became a movement, so it became less about the day today engaging and more about the message in the community getting that out. so it's really tough to balance the two. but then in writing the book, it brought all of it back and that is why the book is so special to us. because yes it is a movement now, but the book really, really chronicles how it was going through day-to-day and the sacrifice of it all. >> host: early jan and made it clear what has real consequences for you and your family. what with it being you and your family are most concerned about? >> guest: the biggest concern and i hate this, but it's the truth. as such is we really point to take a stand in honor of our top-quality entrepreneurs, we

did believe in some of the stereotypes about poor service, poor quality, high price is, not clean, all that stuff but a lot of middle-class black folks hold a better small local. that was their biggest concern. we really going to live like this and expect inferior services and prices to take a stand. so that was their biggest concern. we prepared ourselves for that. but the other people really did believe that we can find everything. we were just like, well, we'll just spend a lot less money in oak park, our quaint little suburb and a lot more money on the west side and the depressed him economically deprived community right down the street. that's how it got to work. we assumed there would be black owned grocery stores. not as bad, probably not the same selections.

drive a little further, not big brands. we assumed all that stuff was there. but we just weren't living up to her duty to find. we had no idea to go to the westside crew would not find those businesses owned by the people who lived very like you do if you were to look for in a shallow business or chinese on business and go to chinatown for a greek owned business. we assume the same phenomenon would exist in a fat black owned business. so we were shocked. the first, second and third day, not that there is a way to pass or fail, but we thought we would fail because there's no way we would survive because there's so few black businesses that represent the daily meet of the family, drugs, food store. not that it does black

community. we had children. so how do we know the stark reality is, how many industries and markets where he could suffer from representations, i don't know we would've engaged this journey. we really thought the toughest part with the settling for massive great service are not so great selection. we did not that we would be up to find certain businesses or products at all. >> host: wow. let me ask about the statistics which you quote in the book early jan. and the asian-american community 1 dollar circulates for 28 days. in the jewish community 1 dollar circulates in 18 days. in the black community 1 dollar is gone and in hours. tell me what the consequences in terms of creation. >> guest: i hear these numbers, but what to think about what that actually means.

that means hard-earned work in the black community. people come home with their pay and it immediately goes to a majority of banquet said were for family can on a big account, a majority on check cashier or something like that. let's say he comes home with cash that day. we need food. the first thing is go to the greek or italian owned grocery mart in his community and that money, which is probably a big chunk of this check is going to go to the greek family. the greek family at the end of the night puts the steel doors down an address to the suburb were pre-conclave and spends that money in their community. it goes to that tax base, goes to make sure the streets are cleaned when the guy who earns the money, those kids need better schools. so in the asian community or in

a greek owned community or an arab-american community, that person, their hard-earned wealth goes to a nation of banquet chinese own name. that chinese bank is left in the chinese businesses in that community. this guy gets the money goes to the chinese grocery store. the chinese on grocery store and i think chinese business people who put their products on the shelves. everyone in that store is chinese anissa masi community, too. so that store, the money they make in the store contributes to the local tax base, keeping property values have been community programs in schools funded. we have the benefit of all those basic things in the black funded. we have the benefit of all those basic things in the black community. and the other piece the numbers don't represent is the chinese kid gets to go to the chinese grocery store and see the chinese owner and pink, i can be a businessperson.

in the black community, black is with her whole life and never see her on earth will excite them. they go into the store of the customers are black. but when i apply for a job, they see someone who doesn't look like them. you can shop here. you can live here, but sure not entitled to be an owner, not even in your community. the next six hours everything. it explains social crises come away don't have jobs, explains why our kids are unexpired and choosing gangs over college and when our school systems are underfunded and kids drop out of school. it explains everything. so this is much less about guilt and much more of a crusade. i think the more we keep pushing numbers up where we had chances like this to talk about these numbers in an intelligent way

instead of just about the other numbers are dropping out of schools, populating jails, it would end the discussion with $8 stake in the black community for six hours. maybe there would be an american on high moment and we can say that's the reason the community suffers the way it does. i'll need to do is support the business owner who invest in the community and became counted our social crises. we don't feel it in number, six hours is talked about enough. i was real important to get those stats out and not just the journey. >> host: you see that as a direct link to poverty and impoverished communities. >> guest: yes, all of the social crises but be not so much a statistic that's just an everyday fact that people don't think about that much as black employers are by far the greatest private employer.

but then added to black unemployment in some places and always the highest among any of that group. so connection if we have our black owned businesses that were able to employee sole proprietorship we can counter unemployment. >> guest: we would have more the community and better options, be more tears, more pride if they adjust to go to every day. so all of that is connected to the league to support businesses, not just the need for wealth and the community when people talk about okay, well that's by local. i push by black because black businesses are important to black people. if we were in a place in america when everyone is going in point where we should be, i wouldn't make this.

lack of employment is really high. i have to support if i were to counter unemployment. i spend my money with those businesses that would employ my community. >> host: you describe the experiment which he sort of alluded to the sense that you and your husband had you had developed a dangerous instant gratification, even entitlement. can you talk about that from the place you are now as an act to do some work on some of these issues to the feeling? >> guest: it's funny and i'm not his own leader, but we wrote this out to get other foods in our echelon who been able to benefit from opportunities that are brothers and sisters have not been able to average. i hope it makes them feel this too because we are not the only people who feel this way. but it seems like folks like us

would be able to go to growth school and make money and own a home and give good things if sell were supposed to do. all the dying and getting rich and houses burned to the ground was so that i could have a nice car and i could go to the fancy conferences and have our teeniest and talk about black stuff. it's like okay, so now that i've gotten all these benefits come away to reconcile that with our duty to the community. i think the reconcile it is very failed. it used to be that we are fighting for you to make it so you can then go back and teach, employee, lead, keep fighting. this is the part we failed. but we've been doing that opportunities, all about wealth

is do our best to spend it on businesses or products that are not representing communities. probably the greatest economic achievements of my class is making sure that polo and hennessy family is our wealthy, prosperous and educated guess that is what we spend money on. we make sure they are doing great, but art communities are suffering. wouldn't it be great if they would be responsible for creating our own polo, iron hennessy, would not be a better legacy than saint thank you. now we are able to buy polo, hennessy and stay at w. hotels. so that was a conversation we are having. we acknowledge that we being hypocritical that the movements are stalled because we haven't

had out enough to our responsibility. so now that i'm enacted this and made that transition from corporate to cause, they make a lot less money and we're both in high six figures and all that stuff. we have the life. we've given all that up, treated and. but the sense of empowerment, the consciousness and i really do believe that things can change in america for people. you can't put a price tag on that. we created the foundation. we contribute our own money and we really do think that if the foundation was funded with a pickup under the experiment left out and create solutions, were partnering with the corporate sector to do business is business owners. all kinds of possibilities.

so i can do my time. i can do that to work for my communities than i could raise money for business owners who could be the next capital investment. so i'm reconciling my duties to my community with all the blessings i have. and we are challenging others. they are not going to go to the hood and not talk all day, but they can occur back on products in the grocery store and walgreens to go to black owned hotel breakfast when they vacation and inspire organizations to make sure. it's the little things we inspire an experiment and i target the middle and upper class folks because they are guilty just like me and number two we have the money. number three if we coalesce we can change. >> host: you're talking about

not creating a social program or something like that, but working in within the u.s. to change these neighborhoods. that is just a really interesting idea. >> guest: we had those folks who actually created the landmark study based in our experiment with the money we are to have come in the businesses we are to have two counters social crises. they proved that we could potentially create these numbers over 800,000 jobs created from black businesses that we always have with the wealth of your behalf if we just shut some of our spending. we only put 2% of our money on middle class folks. 75,000 household income or more. we always put 2% of our money back into the community by supporting others.

the study. if we can go for 2% or 10%, not even to put all of black hair shopping that we do with the black system and that the 8% incremental shift we can create jobs for the chronically unemployed and put money into chronically underserved communities. so the point is yes, 3 communities. so the point is yes, i get a lot of folks who say we need to create her own industries and separate into all that stuff. i'm saying that get the low-hanging fruits are not supposed to support businesses brd have, support and we should have 10 stories by now. support those business is somewhat those guys create jobs. that is all i'm asking to do. the little, little things up in the system we have and we can inspire corporate to do more business at best. we could have black-owned franchises, more products for black companies on the shows and black companies to create

inputs. a bunch of stuff we could do within the system we are at the house. no government program, no handouts. economic empowerment. >> host: i want to talk about farmers than a minute. but first, i want to read some more statistics you have in the book. less than 2 cents of every dollar in african-american connects things to african-american business. with 11% on their own businesses compared to only 7.5% of latinos and 5.1% of blacks. why don't firms have average annual sales of $400,000. black-owned firms is 70,000 -- 74,000. you know, why do you think this data isn't disturbing where people? >> guest: folks don't know. did you know?

>> guest: we knew for the most part so proprietorships, which is people ask about how many businesses they have and they try and do something or they do something that they love, so they sell jewelry or shall do your hair. we are the only ones that can handle that market. social do that we might open a home daycare or something like that. but those are things we do bodily, quickly because we love it. but these aren't lasting institutions that employ 20300 people. we have her own businesses, but they are short-lived and are so proprietorships. so we kind of knew that, but what we didn't know was how few

of those businesses were being reported by black people and that was the reason, not increasing demand. it's not alarming and this is the black kaci and outside the black community. folks think that is the way it is supposed to be and that is really what is disturbing outside this is my life now that we are at this point where i am starting to that america, folks inside the black community are thinking the statistics are reflection of our propensity, not a byproduct of our history here, you know, some of this is just residue at the very racist systems in this country and how they've manifested in our economy. a lot of this has to do with our history here and how it is affected as culture and how we see ourselves and that is why we are not inclined to invest in their businesses.

so it has nothing to do with who we are the better talent fire. it asked us to do with what can be correct it. i think the experiment is reminding ourselves at times that we had 6400 restored. they afford it now, but we had those grocery stores. hotel chains, cosmetics company. we had all of that. >> host: before racial integration. so i thought that was an interesting point you raised in the book. and you hear that when you're in some circles. you're talking about not all the consequences of racial integration. >> guest: and that is not something out of everything conceived up for todd about. but it is an absolute fact. what i don't like people to focus on is that all of those

great businesses because they forced us out of a hat too. we also had great business is because we support each other, love each other, we had unity and pride and we didn't have a social crises. that correlation. we can counter all the problems we have in the community. but the point about immigration is yes. i don't think this is intentional. i wouldn't go that far. but we have fantastic businesses do we show at the cusp if we had just started supporting them a little bit before, and those businesses could have been the next hotel chain, the next ace hardware. they were in the same contradictory as the businesses we love and support now. but then everything fell off with integration and it wasn't intentional. a lot of consumers had been denied the right to be at the

counter, to go to his fears, thoughts on how we were demonstrating our solidarity for sticking it to someone by saying i'm going to shop with you. and i'm going to with you. but in so doing they been in business owners who depend on that money before. so we went out and drove those businesses that hadn't won the support and the sword. when we did that we left our guys out. those businesses grew from our consumer diary and after that businesses started to recognize the value of the black dollar. so the next way that crippled our entrepreneurial hearing and sight in so much wealth from communities with that especially in my generation, our generation, the point was get a good job at a big way company. that was the goal. that would make your parents, at

a big way company. other groups, the goal is be in much better. we last corporation started to recruit our best talent, it ended up working for the great corporations that were marketing african-american consumers. kind of a perfect storm. consumers go that way because they've been made and denied the opportunity for so why not knowing what they did for the community and they were going to corporations so we lost the guys who would've been owning the hardware stores and grocery stores in the community. all of that started to happen in the last wave his 70s, 80s and early 90s. the immigrant population started to notice the phenomenon. here's the community that love

to spend outside of the community. this is a badge of honor to be with two by brands. so they set up shop in the community and we supported them. so now the local businesses are gone. our top talent is in corporate america and not wanted to be entrepreneurial and the money keeps leaving our community. all of that works to cripple us. they can change all of those things. it will be a hard, slow process. but the point is that started with integration. within an integrated society we can bring enough money back, if businesses back to fix what is going on in our community. >> guest: now not all of your experiences with black owned businesses. we were take a break in a few minutes, but i am curious about your first visit to jay's fresh

meat. i know there another businesses like that do want the best businesses are places you necessarily wanted to shop at. what made you go through it at shopping trip? >> guest: well, we went into this real gung ho, real optimistic, hoping that the fresh meat would be a nostalgic experience on tv, the corner store owned by a mom-and-pop and it was clean and you come in their end end end of sons and daughters ended as a great pillar in the community, not the stereotype that folks i talked about. instead we got the stereotype. the sturdy. in my opinion was a friend further collect dvd. the shells were dusty, out of date. the owner dare was just

heartbreaking. young women with kids at the story. the kids were uncapped. it was cold. i felt like i wasn't even in america anymore. first off the business was awful. i thought no way we do business like this exist in oak park. she wouldn't even have the opportunity to us today. should be kicked out. but it's okay to have it bad business like this because it is on the west side? the second inning as all of that was overwhelmed by my experience with this woman. she is a mother and she has these kids and i'm sure they look like that because she is poor. i know this business will not last six months. so who am i to you. backup at her businesses and the reason that business is so bad is because all of the historical

step is anything as she said it then. she is trying to consumers at supporting her. her community is dead and dying. there's nothing beautiful around here. shuster selecting what she sees outside. oak park businesses are beautiful and perking a great employees. that is the spirit of oak park. the website is to price. businesses are depressed and people all of those depressed and businesses driving big money and don't have to deal with the website reality. this one that was exactly we need it the empowerment experiment because we need to support her. we need to make sure that more demand for black businesses. as much as we don't support her businesses, were much better than that. >> host: we are going to go to equip break. thank you. >> guest: thank you.

>> host: so maggie, craft is a huge set to or an entire story. gene robinson at the "washington post" calls this fraction in the black community disintegration. is their experience in a place like cheese shows the idea of where one black community no longer exists, digiovanni thoughts about that as he went through this in terms of the fractures we see across class lines? >> guest: we are a huge fan of

the genes that we are so happy he's been able to push this issue and should be tyler because it is something we don't talk about. i remember a lot of times before the experiment when we decided to do something about we say stuff like if we had at dinner or conference or something somewhere probably one of two black couples at the event, something that happens all the time. i go to the university of chicago alumni. it happens a lot. we will set there and have a great time talking about the news of the day, talking about kids, suburban life. , said there and we say every time, we have more in common with these people than we do with our friends, brothers and sisters on the west side, with the people he grew up with in

liberty city, the people you grew up with in detroit. what are we going to talk about? we cut about that and just how wrong that is. we really should be, if anything closer to those folks who share a history here, and actually are part of our circle. the whole thing that makes the black community special is that we stuck together and are thoughtful of one another as we are exploited or denigrated. what are if we lose that? and the other part intellectualize that is is if we don't bring that back, then we are just what other folks dictate to be. we are stereotypes, culture to make money, the hip-hop culture or whatever they define it to be before we are represented by our

unity, proud and african heritage. all of that is gone once he got to this day. once you graduate from harvard, e*trade and all that stuff. you are now a harvard alum into harvard stuff. you don't do the stuff that brought us together. said we would talk about it all the time. we were never in those rooms. even when i took the time to write out about the empowerment experiment, not just doing it to result, we had these points up what would make the experiment special. and when let's connect the struggling. i was one of the things is that folks like us to go to the marchers. we don't put a push on saturday. pushes in chicago where we are

from and after i was laid off or my big corporate good donald's so ago on saturday. that's where the community was and people would come together and talk about issues. we would not work and they were very few people like me in that room. it was mostly working-class, so my folks don't go to those meetings are the rallies at a town hall meetings when selling so bill is set to create zone in months we don't do that. we can't make the march anymore. but if we can do little things to speak in support of businesses i always want to do more. maybe this is their escape and

make them feel connected to the community again. we are not alone in feeling bad about that. we are connect separate it hurts those folks on the west side. but what is really awful about it is when i made that connection but we still do it now, we still go to the website. we know business owners on the west side and dana west. the point was when we were there and we spoke that disconnect, that is what inspired us to do more because we remembered these are good people, hard-working people who came from the same place we came from. that's the whole point. we are not different. i may have a little bit more in common with the university of chicago grad, but we are not different. we are the same. if anything, my job the same way

she would defend me, i should be defending her. they were doing that. when i walk into those stories, they honor me. and the crown jewel. look on his win at the grocer made it out. she is successful in their proud of me. i need to reciprocate that pride by being proud of her and supporting her for saying here is strong but rather try to do something for her family. we're giving are given to us, but we don't get it back to them. it's about time somebody calls on that. people seem a little tough on that, but nobody met -- everybody knows what i'm saying is true. we hope to expand the give you a way to do something about it. just spend a little time on the west side unless bring folks together so we can show the world how we used to be. >> speaking of this, let's talk about what really became one of

your favorite wacko and businesses, a business you relied on throughout this year and it didn't make it. it didn't make it through the year and there were other businesses in the appalachian mentioned this quality plakon businesses that did not survive. but impacted that have on you and did it have on the social impact? >> guest: in many ways i think of kareem dion, perfect guy, smart, driven, located his business in the community, did not live. he lived in the way suburb, too. he could have opened up shop in the ways that their and done well. that he chose the community because he wanted to be a role model. and that he failed makes us think we failed. but at the same time, keeping us

alive in keeping this discussion alive is really something and i say this every time i speak. i await to him. he was everything that we can be in every game we aren't. he is perfect. we work on perfect. he had everything we needed in that community. perfect store, great values, great selection. in my opinion, just as good as any whole foods. at the consumers i think because he was black we told the consumers and in my way discussed in place, your quintessential food and liquor a mile away always packed with live people. here have displays. everything was shined in this place. asparagus from new zealand. i mean, he brought in all kinds of fresh produce. everyone was impeccably dressed. always open on time, great

quality fish in a coffee shop in their. everything down the street, did meet stang, produces molded, produce out the roof. greek island, dirty, the owner or to customers disrespect. but customers flooded to place because that's who we are, that's our job and we let her read die. we did everything we could to give that story chance, my family did, but the community did not respond. and it's just a perfect case in point of why we failed. it's not because we don't have great business owners. it is because our consumers have lost faith in business owners and we are not trying their best to support them. but we have supported a little bit, huge be in that store now.

i saw him opening his fifth store. thinking most folks were like me and see a quality place on by a fantastic entrepreneur who would want to support them. i was sorely disappointed and he represents the whole problem we have now. i know kareem is not alone. i bet you there are thousands of great entrepreneurs doing it right, investing in the community that we are not doing her port by supporting it. i keep this alive hoping that we can, you know, even if we don't bring his store back, but at the end of this journey we support and read some of the 6400 grocery stores back by mobilizing and supporting great businesses we have. >> host: you mention in the book and it resonated with me only because i grew up listening

to the idea that the white man's ice is cold air, which is the statement that ends with parts of it and i wonder if i listen you talking about the beautiful store in an area that did not have fresh fruit readily available failed. and if you think this idea that the white man's face is cold or played a role in why that store filled. just go there could've another fact is, but that was definitely prevalent. people knew it wasn't a matter. everyone knew about the stores. we promoted mainstream media and local black media. everyone knew the story. it was the kind of day where well-meaning folks what seemed to go by that store. i'm going to go by the story. why is it when you get in your

car to go get groceries you drive five miles away from the community quiets why do you do that instead is what is stopping you from going up to street. inside of themselves like we were before this experiment. first of all we drive over and around. we do not shop in those communities, folks like us. if anything, we may go there because someone is having a barbecue for some meeting we have to go chewing someone decides to have it there. but if we don't have to, we don't go into those communities because we don't live there anymore. that's number one. we don't even take the chance. number two, there's a secret desires; to get in there and there's going to be should be quite at the counter popping god had been on her cell phone?

and i'm going to be standing there waiting? am i going to go in there and these are the things that block us from even taking a chance on that store? i totally believe the white man's ice is colder, which basically means that if you have a white business and the black business, i am going to support the white business because i am sure because it is white is going to have everything at white stuff is better than blacks does. we cannot hold a candle to a white business. it's totally untrue. we are smart enough to know that. but that thinking has lived and breathed in the black community and it stops us. it stalls the center tracks from actually going to the black business. even when we do, we go in with the thinking that it is a burden. we're going to have a bad

experience. okay, i'll go support the black business. you never had these conversations in yourself when you go to a majority of business. but to overcome all these hurdles first because inside wreaking black businesses and black entrepreneurs are inferior. one of the main goals is to define negative stereotypes about black businesses to show everyone, the jocelyn's, tracy's , show them, show america, not just black people as entrepreneurs. and if i've got to get you to conquer the white man's ice is colder and i think we are getting somewhere they are, i think the experience i can do that. now that i say it in the roomful of black folks, everyone knows it. but it's not something we talked about before. it is real in that community.

it is life. i'll tell you one quick thing. i brought cbs, major media spent three days with guys and i took them through the westside. when they saw that, they went door to door for two miles and none of the businesses were black-owned. when they found the grocery store and a set heart and soul of the westside and they saw when we win in it was a greek family that owned the store, they're like what you put up with this? this is so insulting that everyone here is black and poor and now this business are owned by black people who won't hire you. why do you put up with it? it has become so bad that we have just accepted that our vote is to be the consumers and to support white business days. we are second class and they

would break our psyche for us to think we are going to go into a business that is owned by a black person. and if we do not come as something is going on. something is wrong. we are doing it because we are forced to respond to them. there is no way that a black person should own a quality business. so the white man's ice is colder and it has gotten so bad that we have actually expected the wall of reporting what is this that we can't even conceive of that reality been changed around and there being a two-mile stretch of black mechanics. we can even conceive the possibility because of the white man ice is colder. >> host: how do you interrupt that thinking, not just for african-americans, but for white americans, hispanic americans to also push this idea to talk

about in terms of supporting black owned businesses and thereby supporting the black community? >> guest: well, we are using the term consumer because we think if we focus on what is going on in the community, the statistics we talk about, our $1 trillion on buying power, how little that goes back into the black community and is strictly correlated to the crazy there, we kid americans to want to bring some of those grocery stores back, there will models back into the community. so if we focus on the correlation between supporting black businesses and black jobs, role models in the community, converting tax burdens into taxpayers, all of those things are grand american ideals that everyone can get behind. when i talk about the experiment, buying black if it is no different than buying

american. we save by american we are not seen it because we hate india, mexico or canada. we say because our economy is suffering, we need jobs in our community. we are peachtree is that we want to restore the historical american industries, american manufacturing. we want to bring that back as part of our soul and inner spirit. that is the same reason i asked people to support black businesses. if you want to see a better economy in these economically depressed areas, more jobs for the chronically employed, if you want these kids do have hope regardless of your background, we need to lobby for tip about supporting black businesses. the way that i get in to see possibilities there is number one to keep highlighting mdc possibilities there is number one to keep highlighting mdc possibilities there is number one to keep highlighting america. corporate america number one to keep highlighting america. co