suddenly he is back in the battle of the bulls' line in the snow. back in front. summer of far-flung planet. the far end of the universe for he is safe and there is someone who loves and anti has no meaning. then he's back again. this book with its flashback, is central schumer when we finished was looking around for another subject for a biography, first of all, wanted to know who has not had a bad review written about him or her and who had a big impact on people my age. well, kurt vonnegut came to mind right away, and i was surprised that he had, in fact, never had a biography written about him. turned out he was a little bit miffed that no one had ever taken the time.

half a century of writing in 14 books in print and no one had ever written a biography. i wanted to find out who was kurt vonnegut the author of these books that suddenly became so popular, so suddenly. you know, he was out of print, as i say in the prologue in the mid-60s. by 1970 he had a body of work that had been resuscitated from the ash heap of literature. god bless you missed -- mr. rosewater, sirens of titan, mother night, cat's cradle, works before he had been just somebody who wrote paperback books that ended up in drugstores and bus stations next to mr. lefty and conan the barbarian. no suddenly the next great literary thing. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> and now our final panel from the virginia festival of the

book. author of you need a schoolhouse author of the tuskegee airmen an illustrated history talk about fighting for civil rights through education and war. >> good afternoon. welcome to the viejo festival of the book sponsored by the virginia foundation for the humanities. the panel is called fighting for civil rights through education and more. my name is carried dixon buick in of a fellow at the virginia foundation for the humanities and employees to welcome you here this afternoon. i will be moderating the panel today which features two authors, stephanie deutsche and daniel l. holman, who are here to talk to us about their books on the rose and oral schools in the tuskegee airman. if you program notes to begin. first, i would like to point out that c-span is filming this production for book tv, so please be sure your cell phones are off. i would like to remind my students of that sometimes. please be sure your cell phones

are off. also, remember that the festival of the book is free of charge, not free of cost. if you would like to support the festival you can go online and pick up by giving packet at any of the information this. we would also appreciate it after today's panel you would complete your program evaluations, the yellow sheet did you have been handed which helps us to develop the program in future years. so for the format for today's panel i will introduce the authors and there will each have a few minutes to introduce their books to talk briefly about them , and then we will have what i envision will be a very lively discussion between yourselves and the authors after which you will, of course, have the opportunity to purchase the books that you see in front of you and have them signed by the authors. to begin, stephanie deutsche is the author of union school else, booker t. washington, julius rosenwald, and building of schools through the segregated south published in 2011 by northwestern university press.

said he graduated from brown university and has a master's degree in soviet union area's cities from harvard. since 1975 she lived on capitol hill in washington d.c. she published articles and books and book reviews in the new york times, washington times, weekly standard, a philanthropy magazine, and the millions blog. in addition to writing she served as chairman of the grants committee of the capitol hill's community foundation which gives away $250,000 per year in small grants. dr. daniel l. holman is chief of the organization's history division of the air force historical research agency and the co-author of the tuskegee airmen, an illustrated history 1939-1949. he earned his bachelor's degree from the university of southwestern louisiana, his master's degree from the university of new orleans, and his ph.d. in history from auburn university. before receiving his ph.d. he taught high school social studies and louisiana for five years.

authored five books but aviation history, written three air force pantalets as well as several book chapters, studies, and 16 post articles. taught at huntingdon college, upper university and socked the university. without further ado will give you the authors and we will begin in chronological order by subject matter of which gives us stephanie first. thank you. >> i am particularly happy to have an opportunity to consider the subject of my book in the light of the civil-rights movement. bringing it more into the presence because booker t. washington and julius rosenwald who were both extraordinarily well known during their lifetimes have been somewhat eclipsed in recent years. washington in particular has seen his reputation slide. he has been charged with being an accommodationist, being unwilling to place higher

aspirations for african americans pressing the restrictions on what they could accomplish. and what i felt in my study was quite the opposite. he and rosenwald together made a rather significant contribution to the time that led the way to the civil rights movement. booker t. washington, many of you probably remember, was born not too far from here on a small family farm, as late as a child. and then was educated at hampton university, hampton institute as it was then. he traveled down so alabama where he was invited to be the founding principle of the steel institute as it was then. tuskegee was created on the model of hampton as a school to educate teachers at the end of slavery, of course, education was very much needed by the freed men in very much wanted.

to have education you have to have teachers. hampton had been treated to educate teachers. tuskegee was created on the same model. by 1900 tuskegee was a very successful school. washington has several attributes that contributed to this. he was a good teacher and a very hard worker. also a brilliant fund-raiser. he spent a lot of his time traveling up north making speeches and soliciting donations. to see was a thriving institution. in 1895 he had an opportunity that thrust into national limelight when he was invited to be a speaker at the atlanta, in state exhibition. a kind of world fair, and he was the only african-american speaker there. he spoke for five minutes, giving a speech that was very positive and upbeat, talked-about african-americans and white people working together said strength in the south for mutual progress,

economic viability for all. and then a pass is that later became quite controversial he said, in all things that are purely social we blacks and whites can remain as separate as the figures on their hand, but we will be as one as a fist and things that have to do with mutual benefit. in the wake of the speech he became tremendously tremendously famous. harvard university gave him an honorary degree the next year. he and his wife took a trip to europe, and they were invited to tea with queen victoria. he had dinner at the white house with your roosevelt. he was increasingly famous and well known. at the same time despite all his optimism this was a very difficult time for african-americans. plessey versus ferguson in 1894 had mandated separate but equal, which was always separate but very rarely ."

so increasingly jurisdictions were passing laws separating schools, hotels, playgrounds, parks. not only that, this courage the states were passing legislation restricting voting and african americans who had been voting says they were -- says freedom had come, be restricted from the ballot box and not able to vote. when she was in my ignorance when i started my research, i thought of it as a very random and some times thing. i was shocked to discover how pervasive it was and what the source of fear it was in the african-american community. in 1911 when washington that rosenwald he had reason to be optimistic, but he also had a heavy load of responsibility

about tuskegee and anxiety about what was happening. rosenwald was at that time the newly rich president of sears roebuck. his parents were jewish immigrants from germany. he had been born in springfield illinois where his father ran a small clothing store. he grew up there, learned that closing trade from his uncle's in new york and then returned to chicago to start his own business. in 1895, the same year as booker t. washington had his opportunity, rosenwald was invited to buy into a small unknown mail-order company called sears roebuck which proved to be a very sound investment. he just blooming at the time. as you all probably know, sold everything from your buddy rate to your tombstone. you could buy a house from sears. so very wealthy. bought himself a big house, took a trip to europe and started

looking around for philanthropic uses for his money. he always said that his money had come to him as mustard good luck as through his own merit. he felt a certain responsibility to be a steward of it and to use it to benefit others. he started with the jewish philanthropies in the chicago community. when he met booker t. washington he was ready to look a little further. two things had attracted his attention to african-americans. one was that one of the first race riots in america occurred in 1990 -- in springfield in his hometown. on the front page of the chicago paper for three days. the black part of town was burned down, and it was a horrifying event and particularly horrifying to rosenwald to have been giving money to the victims in europe. the state-sponsored riots that were attacking jewish communities at the time. about the same time one of his friends gave him a copy of up

from slavery, washington's autobiography. and so in 1911 when they met at a luncheon in chicago these two men had quite good reasons to be anxious to meet each other. washington was always looking for wealthy people who might make donations. rosenwald was anxious to know more about african-americans. they hit it off. they were both very practical man, very results oriented. rosenwald invited washington to visit this year's plant which was enormous. and washington responded by inviting rosenwald to come down, which he did that fall. he rented a private plane car, filled with family and friends and his rabbi from chicago travel down and was very impressed by what he saw. i'm sure we will be talking more about the campus, but it is a beautiful place. the buildings had been built by the students, bricks that they made there.

rosenwald was extraordinarily impressed. he agreed to serve on bornholm, and in the correspondence between the two men that developed he pressed washington for other ways that he might benefit the community. were there other days that he could do besides giving money to tuskegee in serving on the board? and rather quickly washington suggested schoolhouses. at that time in rural -- in the world sell there were many, many places where black children were not going to school at all or if they did go to school they would for only four or five months a year. attending school in churches or large buildings or even private homes, and so schoolhouses was a major, major meat. and washington also stressed to rosenwald that the community's that he was thinking of where very, very anxious to have schools and in many places the people living there had already started to collect money,

already thinking about how they might acquire a schoolhouse. and rosenwald, one of his beliefs about philanthropy was he was a great promoter of matching grants. he felt people who were invested in the end results were more likely to benefit from it. and so they -- he agreed to build six small schoolhouses in the area right around tuskegee, which they did. the cost for him was $350 per school house, an equal amount came from the communities. and he -- on his next trip he visited some of the schools and was extraordinarily moved, not only to see the schools in the children, but to see the entire community turned out to welcome him, thinking, expressed gratitude. n t agreed, quickly agreed that they would expand the program, build 100 more schools, and they were involved in building

several hundred more when washington died in 1915 rather unexpectedly. the program continued until rosenwald's death in 1932, and at that time there were over 5,000 schools and school related buildings that had been constructed by the rosenwald fund. and i will just conclude with the fact that i always find stunning. dollar for dollar during those 20 years that the schools were being built more had come from the african american community that benefited from the schools that from rosenwald himself. so the people in these schools who were by and large quite poor and quite a disadvantaged contributed as much money as a rosenwald fund had contributed. there is a lot more i could say, but maybe we will let that come out in the next portion.

>> i would like to start off by just connecting my book with your book a little bit. there is a connection. the fund had a sponsor, somebody who was involved with helping raise money for the fund but for civilians training program which was back in 1940. started. a little field called kennedy fields. a little grass field. and she visited that because she knew that 99 pursuit squadron later would become the 909th fighter squadron from the first black flying unit. already been activated in illinois, and it was going to train pilots in the tuskegee area.

she visited on behalf of the rosenwald fund to help raise money for the construction of the place where the primary flight training would take place, which was at bowdoin field, that kiddy. and largely through the efforts of eleanor roosevelt and their rosenwald fund tuskegee institute was able to construct that airfield. a much larger airfield that was built by the army air force, a little bit northwest. tuskegee army air field, much larger. where the basic flying training, advanced flying training, and the transition flying training to place. that is enough for the transition, but i would like to know just talk about the book as a whole. mainly concentrate on the sources and authors. all of the authors of this book, not the only author. joseph and zero.

the three of us worked or have worked because jussive recently retired, but we have all worked at the air force historical research agency at maxwell air force base in alabama. that air force is for research agency is the proper repository of air force historical documents, especially related to air force organizations such as squadrons, groups, wings, number air forces, maj their commands and so on including the world war ii records of air force organizations. just to let you know i got involved in writing about the tuskegee airmen, i had written about other aspects of air force history will for. but i decided to write a paper about the aerial victory several years ago. it is called 112 victories, eventually published an air power history, but that kind of got me started in writing about the tuskegee air meant. my major contribution to this book is the chronology. it contains a very detailed

chronology of tuskegee airman events, but i also wrote half of the chapter introductions about the tuskegee airmen. what this book started out as was a coffee table photograph book, a book of photographs with captions. it was also going to have a chapter introductions to tie everything together. but the other two authors who were recently the only two authors of this book decided that the chronology i had developed, which had grown to some 70 pages of regular double spaced paper was a valuable addition that they would want to put in the book. they asked me if i would be a co-author and asked me if i would mind if the chronology was put in the book. i was very happy to put it in. no, i want to say a little bit about how this book differs from other books about the tuskegee airmen. there are a lot. i'm sure that with the movie red

tails, even more interest than there was, but they're is a lot that has been written about the. some of the books and publications are a little more accurate than others. i could say, this book is a little bit more accurate than some because it is based on the documents, the world were to documents. what a lot of people don't realize is the members of the tuskegee airmen themselves produced monthly histories of their organizations during world war ii. they also produced narrative mission reports immediately after each mission a fluke, daily narrative mission reports. so based on the histories, monthly histories of the missions themselves written but to spearman themselves, the narrative mission reports that they compose themselves during world war two immediately after its mission, other documents such as orders that awarded the distinguished flying crosses, orders that awarded them a real victory credits, and orders that

awarded the organization's distinguished unit citations, those kinds of documents make this book a little bit more accurate and complete. another thing i would like to mention, besides having a lot of photographs that are not contained in any other to steerer publication, there is also a lot of focus on other members of the to spearman organizations besides the fighter pilots. when you get to see the movie red tails you see the emphasis is on the fighter pilots. but the tuskegee airman story is much more complex than that. it is not just about the fighter pilots. it is about bomber pilots and crews because there was a 477 bombarding group and will work to actually trade bomber crews to much as the pilots, but navigators, bombardiers, rita control meant, and other crew members. the trend in the united states.

they said this book brings out the different kinds of aircraft that they flew. they did not fly just read tell -- ones in combat. they also flew before that peace 40, p39, p47, several different kinds. so the story is a lot more complete when you look at it focusing not only on the fighter pilots, but on the bomber crews and also on all of the ground personnel. he told a lot of the fighter pilots and bomber pilots that were trained during world war two, less than a thousand. if you count all of the ground personnel it's over 14,000. so a lot of the information about those other people who are also involved is in the book. the last thing i would like to say is that this connection with the civil rights movement, not just, but also because so of the things that the tuskegee airmen accomplished, of course, we know

that they were the first black pilots in the american military. there were no black pilots in the navy during world war two or the marine corps. only the army air forces. a struggle to get the army air forces to admit black pilots. almost a thousand black pilots were trained in the army air force. partially because of their record in world war two, their success president truman issued an executive order which mandated the integration of the armed forces, not just the air force, but -- the air force was but even born until 47, but all the armed forces. integration was partly a result of the tuskegee airmen. that wasn't the only thing. the other thing that the tuskegee airmen did that help to

contribute to the civil rights movement was something called the freeman field unit. i don't know if you have heard of that, but the bombardment group was stationed at a place called freeman fields. in 1945 the commander of the airfield decided that he wanted the commander of the unit decided that he wanted to set up to offices, one for whites and one for black. he pretended that when one for whites was for a trader said the well for lax was for trainees. disguise the fact that it was really racial segregation on an army air force base. but the members of the 477 bombardment group committee would not go along with that. 101 of them refuse to sign a paper saying that they recognize there would be two separate offices clubs and this was the one for this set of people and that is the one for that's the people. and so refusing to go along with

that 101 of them were arrested. they were eventually exonerated because the army air forces could not justify having a policy that violated the army's own policy about officers' clubs. if you were an officer stationed at a certain base you have the right to go to that officer's club. there wasn't a question about to officers' clubs. so that is a pioneer event in the civil rights history here. part of the tuskegee airmen history, so there is a direct connection between the civil rights movement and the civil rights history in the tuskegee airmen. that is about all i wanted to say. >> they key to both of you. we will open it up for audience questions. all-star myself. one of the privileges of being the moderator is a good test the first question. already sort of started to answer my question, which

relates to seeing both of these projects in light of the civil rights movement. traditionally we think of in terms of mass marches, boycotts, inspirations, all starting in about 1854. rosa parks, but historians are starting to see a broader, longer so rights movement. i'm curious to see how you see what were at the time segregated institutions. how you see the contributing to what becomes what we think of today as the civil rights movement. i love you both to answer that. more audience questions. >> well, i ticket is a great question. takes me back to and, i had a couple of years ago. i was watching the eyes on the price for the documentary about the pbs. i was looking at footage of people walking to work during the bus were cut. and thinking about this for a

year. then i went to well, some of these people went to rosenwald's , some of their parents went to rosenwald. i began to get that sense of engagement, the people who built the schools had contributed money, land, and labor. i watched. watching a lot of civil rights history. a couple, the dutch your tree about the freedom riders and the narrator said the freedom riders helped dispel the myth of black impotence. and i think the people who built the rosenwald's schools and the tuskegee airmen did the same thing. they were segregated institutions, but they were segregated institutions that had been created with the big push from african-americans to achieve goals that they very much wanted to achieve. their goals were being met by these institutions.

>> one of the prairie goals of the civil-rights movement was racial integration. racial integration not only of schools, but also a public facilities like restaurants and hotels and other places. really get started in the military. the 1940's with president germans the executive order in the implementation of that with the different services. so really i think the integration of the armed forces beginning in 1949 with the air force and with the other services shortly after helped pave the way for the integration of american society because once the military was integrated it was easier for these veterans when they went back into regular society to push for the integration of the rest of american society. so acting that is one of the connections between what the tuskegee airmen did and what happened as a result of their efforts. and i should mention, too, that

two of the tuskegee airmen eventually became very important during the civil rights era, not really marching in civil rights marches or anything, but the first black general in the air force was benjamin o. davis jr. who was the most important tuskegee airman he had commanded the 909th fighter squadron and the fighter group and the 477 bombarded group. he commended all of the major tuskegee airman organizations and became the first black general in the air force during the civil rights era, a civil-rights movement if. another was daniel chappie james you became the first four-star black general in the american military, not just the air force , but also in the american military as a whole. >> all right. well, let's have some questions from the audience. i'll ask you to raise your head so that the volunteer can bring your microphones of that will pick up as well for the broadcast.

>> i could ask many questions. i was born in alabama. i lived in the camry during the boycott years and participated in that port at. very much familiar with the territory, huntington college and all that. and there are many questions i could ask. of course i wanted to have this basically dealing with booker t. washington. the character of. at think it is hard to talk about him the without also talking about here boys because, as you said, washington felt that blacks and whites would be like the figures. the boys was more like that only the figures, but.

>> could be involved in all kinds of activities, education. i would like to have a little comment on that. but i want to know what part the rosenwald's played if any in the teachers, a supervisor under the white supervisor. my grandfather started the school that i went to the first eight years of my life. i went to that one teacher school for eight years. and it had some connection. i never had any connection with the rosenwald's. so i just want to know, did the teachers who were supervisors, out of that kind of support? ..

>> he was asked if he thought there would be an african-american president, and he said, yes, i should think so, and he was very practical and thought what was needed in the

immediate was education. dubios agreed with that and was focused on the need as what you know is called the talented ten, the people for whom elementary education was not enough, the people who were going to be artistic leaders. washington didn't, in any way, wish to detract from that. his own children went to university, but he felt before you can have that, you have to have a solid base of people who have had primary education. washington was an earlier time. the needs and constraints were slightly different. we could talk about this a lot, i know, but we'll let other people have a chance to ask questions. >> thank you. i'm a proud graduate of hampton institute university, and i did

a little work, graduate work, in pittsburgh at carnegie melon. i'd like to know how do we enhance the relationship between the jewish community here in charlottesville and the university of virginia? >> wow, that's an interesting question. probably someone from -- having trouble hearing me? >> the question was how can charlottesville work to increase collaboration between the jewish community and the university of virginia. >> [inaudible] >> in talent and in the university. >> i'll tell you of an experience i had a few weeks ago that could point us in a direction. i was speaking in a school in north carolina that is still a school today, a public school, and i spoke at an assembly, and

after i spoke, a young african-american teacher came up to me and said, i can't believe it, i never heard of the schools, but i grew up in connecticut, and my church, a black baptist church, had a relationship with the synagogue in town, and she i used to go to all the celebrations and celebrated all the jewish holidays, and the jewish children came to our church and did things with us. i'm amazed i don't know this story. i think little projects like that can build bridges. it's an interesting and important relationship, the relationship between jews and blacks. >> thank you, fascinating work. on the covers of the book, there's men, but clearly, i know i have not had a chance to read them, obviously, but women are a

part of the story; right? how would you give us a little taste of how women play in the stories in both of these books? >> i'll let you go first. >> okay. well, i can tell you a little bit about the women and the toc -- tuskgeegee airmen irn corporated, and the last five conventions i attended, and one of the issues is whether the airmen people should be airmen or airmen and women. women were involved from the beginning, and there were not only nurses, but they trained in the army air personnel. i told you about the number of pilots that was less than a thousand, but the ground persons

were over 14,000, and many were women. i have a story about one and his wife. herbert carter was in the 99 fighter squadron, still alive today, 94 years old. his wife passed just a few months ago, but his wife could be considered, in a way, an airwoman although she didn't train in the military. she supported her husband, and she got pilot training herself. she went to the civilian pilot training at kennedy field tuskegee sponsored it, and because she was a black woman and not a black man, she didn't have the opportunity to go to the field for the primary flight training or to the airfield for technician flight training. she faced a war there. she didn't have the door of opportunity opened for her at the time, but she continued to

work at tuskegee and at the field supporting the program, and she was honored just a little over a year ago for being the first black woman to earn a pilot's license in alabama. i was interested in trying to find out why black women were not allowed in the wasp, the women's air service pilots, in world war ii, but that door of opportunity was closed to women as well. women played an important role among the tuskegee chairman, but a support role at the time because tblying in the mill -- flying in the military was closed to them not only because they were black, but because they were women. they had two doors to face, two challenges. does that answer your question? >> it gets to it, but i didn't phrase as specificically as i would. i was interested not just in women serving, but connecting men to their families, the

mothers, the wives, the children, to give more holistic sense of who the men were and how they were related. i'm sure records indicate writing back and forth, that dynamic. >> yes. >> and with the washington, and the lives were very active, and i imagine rosenwalk's wife was as well and the sisters. how do they fit into that story that way? >> great question. women are always part of every story. [laughter] certainly in the case of washington and rosenwald and with the schools. i'll start with the two men. washington, you know, had a very tragic private life in the sense he married the year after he started tuskegee, married a woman from the town where he grew up, fannie smith, and they had a daughter, and when the daughter was less than a year

old, his wife died, and so a year or so later, he married another who was teaching in tuskegee, a very well-educated, quite beautiful woman, and they had two children, two little boys, and when the younger one was less than three months old, she died. as a young man, lost two wives, and he married a third time, a graduate of fisk, and became very active at tuskegee and quite involved in srb certainly, in his life, but in his work at tuskegee. rosenwald married his first wife, from a background like his, her parents were imgrants to the country. her father was a peddler for 11 years before he set up a store in upstate new york, and then they moved to illinois. she had one brother and six sisters, and so he was surrounded with a lot of

sisters-in-law. on the subject of the schools, women were often very involved in the communities where the money was raised for the schools, very involved in those programs, and also as teachers. many rosenwald schools that i have visited, people will talk about how they had the same teacher for many years. there was a teacher there for 25 years, and the vast majority of the teachers were women, and they had a huge impact on the chish -- children they taught. they were really more than just teachers, but mentors, community leaders, very, very important. >> speaking of the families, especially the wives, i mentioned herbert carter and his wife, and i should say there's a photograph in the book of herbert standing next to his

plane, his p-40, i think, at the time, and he's standing next to it, and it says mike on the plane. mike was the nickname of his wife, mildred, and so a lot of tuskegee airmen were married in world war ii and wrote back and forth with their wives and received the support from their wives. i've become acquainted with that because attended the last five airmen national conventions, i've met a lot of the widows of the airmen, and one in particular, george roberts, george roberts was the first black man of the 99 fighter squadron, before o'davis, jr., and at the time, of course, he was not a general, but his wife was at the last convention, and i got to speak with her, and she said, yeah, the wives had a great deal to do with the success of their husbands.

>> wonderful. other questions? sure. >> when the airmen left the service, were they able to get jobs with airlines? >> a very good question. they didn't have much success at first getting jobs with airlines. a lot of them were trained pilots. all of them were who flew overseas, and some who had not flown overseas with the fourth 77th bombardment group, and many of them were interested in the opportunities they might have in the airline, and many of the airlines would not accept them as pilots as first. that doesn't mean they didn't keep trying, and eventually many did become pilots in the airlines and private industry. a lot of the tuskegee airmen stayed in the service. i should say that chappy james flew in world war ii, korea, and

vietnam, the first four star general in the american armed forces, but he also had taken part in those three wars, world war ii, korea, and vietnam. charles mcgehee is another who stayed in the service, possibly because he knew he had more opportunities there at first than in private life. he flew in world war ii, korea, and vietnam and has 409 combat missions when you total the missions he had in all three wars. that's not the say that the airmen didn't exceed outside the military. many did go into private business, not necessarily the airlines, but other businesses and were successful. probably one of the most outstanding examples of that is roscoe brown. roscoe brown was a tuskegee airmen or on march 24th, 1945, blew on the berlin mission, the

only one that the tuskegee ever flew on because it was usually the 8th air force from england flying those missions, but he shot down a german jet and was famous partly because of that, but also was a famous educator, and he was the one who, if you remember the 2007 ceremony in which president george w. bush presented a gold medal to the tuskegee airmen collectively for their services in world war ii and beyond and roscoe brown was the tuskegee airmen chosen to accept it on behalf of the whole that medal. i've gotten to know him over the year, and i asked him to write the introduction of the book, and he accepted. he has the introduction written in here. he's an example of a successful tuskegee airmen of being

successful outside of military. >> i'm interested in the tuskegee connection. we talk about tuskegee in different eras and the institute and schools and military. can you tell us a little bit more about tuskegee for those of us not from alabama or have not been to the area. what was tuskegee like then and what it was like in world war ii. tell us a little bit about that. >> well, when booker t. washington went there in 1891, it was a small town. there was nothing there. he created the pam pus that's there now of tuskegee, and one of the things he did was tuskegee was a training school for teachers, but it also taught trades, and one of the trades taught there was brick making. there was trades there before, and he revised that, and the buildings that you see if you go to tuskegee today were built by

bricks that students made. it's beautiful. it's a rolling hilly campus with large red brick buildings. many of them were designed by report taylor, the first african-american graduate of iit, and he was an architect and he designed many of the buildings. there was a very beautiful chapel there, that sadly burned down in the 50s, and there's now another beautiful chapel, a more modern style, but it's a thriving university today, and nearby is one of the original rosenwald schools restored and it's going to be a community center. it's not too far from auburn, and i'll add in june, tuskegee will be the sight for a major conference sponsored by historic trust of national reservation,

promoting the preservation and restoration of rosenwald schools. in the year 2002, they named the school to the most endangered historic sites in north america, and there's many documents for their schools working to preserve them. >> i could tell you about tuskegee in world war ii from my research and association with the other two authors, more familiar with tuskegee than i am as a civilian community, but tuskegee airmen were very familiar with tuskegee, and you know, the tuskegee airmen came from all over the country, and so they were not familiar with the racial conditions in alabama at the time, and they were shocked at the segregation policies they had to deal with that they didn't in places where they had come from. for example, many came from the

north, but a lot of people don't realize this -- there were pilots trained at the air force pilots, but the black pilots from countries like haiti trained at tuskegee because it was the only airfield where they offered basic and advanced training in an air force facility in the whole air force. it was just that field. there were five haitian pilots who trained there, and the haitians were not used to segregated conditions. many of the tuskegee airmen from the north were not interested in the segregated conditions. i should say, tuskegee, at the time in world war ii, the town, was predominantly black, but the leadership was white. because of that, many of the tuskegee airmen were told by their officers that they trained

with to be careful when they went into town because of the restrictive policies, the racial and segregation policies of the town, and i've spoken with some of the original tuskegee airmen who i've come to know, and many of them felt uncomfortable just going into town because of the situation, and many felt comfortable, especially at the tuskegee airfield, a very large airfield that had a lot of the things that the tuskegee airmen needed. they didn't go into town much. there was entertainment opportunities for them, so they stayed on the base, many of them. i should mention that two of the three airfields around tuskegee in world war ii were owned by tuskegee institute. one of them was kennedy field as i mentioned, used for civilian training, and another was built by the rosenwald fund for the primary training. the field was larger, and i

think there was more of the situation where airmen would stay on the base at the tuskegee airfield because it was so large and had so many facilities essentially. >> the field is now a wonderful museum that you can visit. they have a nice tuskegee airmen display there. i would just like to add about tuskegee that the other thing we associate in our minds with tuskegee is the syphilis study that has to do with neither one of our books other than it was at tuskegee, and it's a little school i mentioned where many of the men who were involved in the tuskegee study had gone to the school and the school is next to a church, and it was the recruiting area for volunteers for the study, and one of the reasons that that school, in particular, has been prereceived, it is actually a

national land mark because of the connections to the syphilis study. >> i'm glad you mentioned that historic site is there, and unfortunately, the people who go there today go to tuskegee and visit tuskegee airmen historic site have the wrong impression that that's where all the pilot training took place there, and really it was only the primary flight training. there were several phases the flight training. primary training was in bi-planes for the most part. the larger airfield was northwest of there, and that field is in ruins now out in the country, and our agency, the air force historic research agency where the documents are, the personnel of the agency, just about a month ago went on a field trip to tuskegee the airfield, the ruins of the field, and there is not much

left there because most of the buildings have been taken away. i hangers have been moved. one is in montgomery's field, one is at clanton and another at troy. most of the buildings have moved away, but we saw where the runways had been and the taxi ways and streets had been. you can still see it was a huge base at the time, and it's something that's not really well-known. >> we have time for a few more questions. >> i understand that, if i'm correct on this, that rosenwald deported the buildings of schools largely in rural areas of the south, and i know he also gave philanthropic support to the building of others beyond schools, like libraries in the area if i'm remembering this correctly? i also know that a lot of

northern philanthropists deported facilities and needs of african-americans with the understanding that education would be sort of limited, that is to say more on the booker t. washington model of what was acceptable for educating blacks in the south. i wanted to ask you what rosenwald's views on all of that were or whether he simply did not get engaged in those discussions at all. >> that's a huge and somewhat controversial topic. i will say that rosenwald gave money to, yes, many, many small rural schoolhouses. he also, towards the end of the program, they did fund high high schools in several places. the high school that some of the little rock nine went to before they desegregated central high

school, was a rosenwald school. the school i visited in north carolina was a high school. there were certainly high schools. rosenwald gave money to universities. he gave money to howard. he was a very, very significant benefactor to howard and created fisk atlanta university, and, yes, there were other -- it was not unique to rosenwald to be interested in the helping of african-americans. the rockefellers had been very active, and you probably know that spellman in atlanta is named after john d. rockefeller's wife who was spellman before she married him. that kind of involvement had existed for a long time. i don't think rosenwald had that feeling that he was educating people for a limited future. he just knew they needed education, and he was not really

philosophically oriented, but more practical. it never occurred to him he was educating people for a limited future. as i say, he gave money to the university as well. there were some libraries associated with schools. >> okay, do we have a question on this side? >> you started to touch on, and i was just wondering about how the interest in philanthropy of education of blacks in the south, and how that spread from rosenwald and rockefeller and to others, how that example might have spread to others. >> well, i think it's significant that if you look at

wealthy people today, education is certainly one of the fields they focus on. look at bill gates, probably our wealthiest philanthropist at the moment. he chose two fields important to rosenwald -- public education and public health. that remains a basic area for philanthropists. carnegie did the libraries as you were pointing out. again, with the idea that you have to give people the tools that enable them to have better lives themselves, to have jobs, to have careers, to enrich themselves, so i think it's an idea that goes on. rosenwald felt strongly that each generation creates its own wealth and each generation knows the needs of the time in which it exists, so he design his foundation to go out of

business, to turn the lights off essentially within 25 years of his death. that's why there's no rosenwald fund today. it no longer exists, but certainly there are others who are picking up the pieces and working in that field. >> in the 1930s, there were german-jewish professors coming over, lucky enough, many of whom lucky enough to get here, even outside of the quota. was there any connection here between those german-jewish professors who could not basically find employment in many universities, but who did find positions in southern black educational institutions. in connection with rosenwald in that sense? >> there was no direct

connection, but it is a fascinating story that there was an exhibit at the jewish museum in new york a few years ago about that. it's a fascinating story. jewish intellectuals and professors were able to leave germany and find work teaching at african-american historically black colleges. it's a wonderful story that i don't know much about, but there's no direct relationship to the rosenwald fund. >> this question is for stephanie. i was wondering about the layout of rosenwald schools. we went through one last week been renovated, and it seemed spacious, light-filled, attractive. i think so that a lot of the schools are built on that model. i wonder who designed it, if they used any parts as in a sears house, and whether the plans came? whether you could have two

modular -- how much was directed by the community and their own funding and how much was sort of preset? >> that's a great question. the plans for the schools were standardized. they were created at tuskegee, and report taylor, who i mentioned who designed some of the buildings at tuskegee, was one of the people involved in designing them. another was a professor, and they were very modern for the time, and you're right, they were very spacious. they had beautiful distinctive windows that if you look at pictures of rosenwald schools, a lot of them look alike. there were six plans for different sized schools, and this two-teacher school as we saw was one of the most common plans, but, yes, the plan -- and actually, in some places, white

school systems copied the plans. they were so -- the rosenwald funds didn't help pay for the white schools, but they did share the plans, so, yeah, it's very interesting. the plans were particularly attractive. >> wonderful. i'm sad to say we're out of time, but thank you on what was of the virginia festival of the book and the humanities for coming. i welcome you to meet the authors, purchase books, have them sign, and continue the discussion. thank you. [applause] >> that concludes our coverage of the 2012 virginia festival of the book. for more information, visit vabook.org. >> we had a lot of discussion about the vetting. i was not happy with the

product, and in the movie, obviously, you have 5 process that's ten weeks long distilled into two hour, and so out of necessity, some of the time lines are rearranged, but it's a true story of what happened. on the question of the vetting, we got to the end the process, and senator mccain determined who we wanted to pick. we had the realization that we can't win with any of the candidates as displayed in the movie, paleny/romney, a difficult set of election circumstances that we were outspent by $200 million, and president bush and his approval rating was in the 30s. president obama was speaking to crowds of hundreds of thousands in europe. there was a fervor for the candidacy on the part of the press and trying to figure out

how to win and i'm the person who said we should take a look at sarah palin, you know, from alaska. >> proud of that moment? >> you know, that moment freezes and slows down in my brain. [laughter] you know, standing, spent a couple days at the jersey shore, and i remember everything, every aspect of the moment, i remember the smell of long beach island, the salt air, you know, the cars in front of the house, and i picked up the phone to call rick davis, and i said, we should take a look at sarah palin. the vetting that was done, i said to rick that it's very important, and rick was in charge of the vetting process and the team that campaigned that she be fully and completely vetted like all of the other candidates, and can we do with

ten lawyers and twenty lawyers with what we've done with three lawyers over a couple of weeks for all the other candidates? there were four parts. the first part, and you can do a documentary on this alone -- >> we're not going to. i'll bring in jay roach -- >> hold on, i want to make the part about what we're talking about. there's a lot of context on this, the first part was the tax information, the medical records and that stuff, and it was clear. the second part is depighted in the movie where we have a discussion, operationally how the campaign is going to run. this is how your life 1 going to change. the third part was the questionnaire, the fitness for office, it was inducted, and the fourth part is the interview with john mccain himself, and so what they said to each other is unknown to me. it's known to them.

the questionnaire and the results of it, you know, we didn't have the insight on lack of preparedness, and obviously, we'll talk about that more. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. up next, booktv talks with thomas farr, and this interview was conducted at georgetown university is part of booktv's college series. it's about a half hour. >> professor thomas farr, his book is "world of faith and freedom: why international religious freedom is vital to national security." why is it vital? >> for two reasons. one is that religious freedom is

a fundamental human right. most people would accept that proposition, and it's under seize around the world. the pure form of religion in public life recently mental anguished a study -- recently published a study saying 70% of the world's population lives in countries where religious freedom is severely restricted. that's three out of four people on the planet about, and what's associated with this is a lot of violent religious persecution, torture, rape, unjust imprisonment, it's a humanitarian crisis, and the united states has traditionally stood with the persecuted. it's also a strategic crisis because the data shows, and i would argue both history and common sense confirm it, that without religious freedom, you can want have a stable democracy. when you think of all the

countries of the arab spring, all of them highly religious societies or countries where we've invested enormous amounts of blood and treasure, afghanistan, iraq, or take pakistan or other countries that are struggling to have a stable democracy, our interest for them to succeed, but they can't succeed if they don't get this religion state issue right. if they don't get religious freedom right. in addition, i would say that the data shows when religious freedom is absent, you have violent, related terrorism, and that's a major issue for the united states because it's reached our shores, it affects our military, deployments, and it affects what we do all over the world. it is on the one hand a humanitarian issue, and on the other hand, it's a vital national interest. >> what has been traditional or historic role of religious

freedom in u.s. foreign policy? >> historically, it's played a muted role. it's part of the human rights policy. we've also studio for human -- stood for human rights, sometimes more rhetorically, but that's okay. we had interest as a country, every country does, and human rights, while important to us can't always be at the top during the soviet period. you know, we were very concerned about human rights, but we were concerned about the missiles. what i'm arguing is that this remains true with religious freedom, but it has taken on a sharpened salience because the world is religious whether you and i like that or not, it's irrelevant. whether american diplomats like it or not, it is religious. our job is to, our job as american diplomats, is to engage the world in american interests,

and so to answer your question, it historically has played a rhetorical role in our foreign policy. there's nothing wrong with rhetoric or tact. sometimes it's good. ideas have consequences, speeches, particularly presidential speeshes, and speeches by secretaries of state are important, but they have to be followed by policies. my argument in the book is we are not doing enough in terms of concrete strategic planning policy development and program development to advance religious freedom on the ground. there's a lot of words, a lot of fine words, but we don't have enough action. >> why did you specifically refer to the american diplomatic corp.? >> i spent 21 years as an american diplomat, and i got in this issue in the 1990s when congress passed a law called the international religious freedom act, and i was, at the time, an american diplomat doing what we do. my specialty during the 80s was

the cold war. i negotiated with the soviets, served in geneva, worked on greece, turkey, and cypress issues, and then this law was created. it said the united states will now formally advance religious freedom around the world. i was privileged to be asked by the first head of that office called an ambassador at large of ambassador of religious freedom, to be the chief of staff. this is how i got involved in the issue. i did it for four years. i serveed under two ambassadors as large, and i concluded it was important for our country, and we were not doing a good job or taking it seriously enough. i wrote this book. the american diplomatic corp. is really quite good, but it's been trained, i would argue in american universities, most of them elite universities, that also in the foreign service

training, traditionally, religion is not small really to get involved in. it's like your mother told you, you know, don't talk religion at the dinner table. well, keep it off the policy table. a good example is henry kissinger, the officer and diplomat, and he wrote -- he's a remarkable man, still writing, but in 1994, he wrote his opus diplomacy, it was moderately called that, and it was a tour of the entire list ri of american diplomacy in the western world, a thousand pages, an index of 135-140 page, and the word "religion" does not appear in the index. it's like after the wars of the 17th century on religion, it disappeared as a relevant idea. he was the national security adviser to the prosecute, secretary of state, and when

john paul ii was transforming what was going on in the soviet union, and when on the rise in iran, it's as if any of this had anything to do with religion, and religion had nothing to do with international affairs. there's -- that's not a criticism of kissinger per se, and it's not an mouse, as far as i know on his part towards religion, but just simply a default position that's not relevant. it's private. after 9/11, i think, we can no longer conclude that religion is something we shouldn't be engaging on in our diplomatic policies. >> thomas farr is our -- when we emphasize religious freedom, is that christian centric? >> good question. the perception is the answer's yes. perception out there in the muslim world. the perception among some here in the united states is absolutely not true. all you have to do is read the law, and that is the blueprint

for this. it doesn't mention any religion, much less christianity. the notion is to advance religious freedom for all people. this is 5 highly volatile subject, religion. everybody has strong feelings about it, and christianity is a prophetting religion. it's one to deal with when you talk about it let alone promote it. the idea is to focus on religious liberty as an element of human dignity and of societies and politics. it really is something that can be talked about regardless of the demography. christians around the world as minorities are in big trouble. they are fleeing iraq. they are fleeing many of the countries of the middle east. what happens to the christian

minority in egypt has something to do with -- a great deal to do with the future of that country. it isn't that christians are ire religious relevant, but the notion of religious freedom is not about christians. historically if you talk about where the notion came from, you know, christianity and the jewish understanding of god and man and so forth plays a role. islam, there's a number of islam scholars who argue today that religious freedom is required, not only consistent with it, by required by it. unfortunately, in my view, these brave men and women are not in the muslim world. if they were, we'd have fewer problems on this issue. no, it's not just about christians. it's about human beings. >> what are some of the problems and national security problems that we may face in the -- looking at the two largest countries in the world, china and india?

>> that's an excellent question because it helps me make the point that it's just not a problem of the muslim majority world. both countries have tremendous problems with religious liberty. beginning first with india, which as most people know, is a hindu majority nation, but it also has a huge muslim minority. what happens to the issue of religion and state in that country is of great importance not only for india, which is huge and growing and huge economic importance to the united states and its neighbors, but it's also a nuclear weapons country next to pakistan, which also has nuclear weapons. what happens to india is of tremendous importance to the united states on an economic basis and internal basis and national security basis. thases very much affected, by the way, religion is handled in india. by and large, the indians have

been successful at this. some important exceptions, but if you look at the birth of india, some of the worse confessional violence atrocities in history occurred with the birth of that nation. here we are over a half century later, and it's a fairly stable democracy with huge problems with poverty, but enormous economic growth, and some of this, i think, is due to the fact that the indians influenced primarily by hinduism, by the notion of religions that were there with others, but developed a secular understanding of the way the democracy should work. they still have persecution of christians in india. they still have persecution of muslims, and they have radical hindus. they have big problems. by and large, india is a success story looking at some of the other countries, and it's important because of the muslim

minority. >> china? >> very different problem. officially an atheist state. no religion is invited to flourish in china except as part of the bureaucratic understanding of the state. it's a top-down status understanding. socialist, communism, whatever you will, and there's an official communist party. the most important thing to understand about china is that the communist party allows capitalists to be part of it, but not religious believers. what does that tell you? it tells you, first of all, that it's a very practical strain of communism. communism, by definition, is anti-capitalist, but in the 1980s, the chinese decided that they wanted to develop economic enterprise within their country, and so they said, you know, to get rich is glorious.

well, this tells you that if they were to make this kind of decision about religion, that they could make enormous changes, but the problem is they don't see it as part of the chinese understanding of reality. they see religion as a threat, and in some ways, it is because religious people whether they are christians or buddhists or muslims out in the western provinces of china, they have a higher authority than the state, and so in that sense, and some philosophicalceps, it's a threat to any communist state, but what we should be saying to the chinese, and we don't do that very well is, look, back off these people. you don't have to have full religious freedom, you don't have to adopt the american understanding, but if you -- what do you want? this is really what you use for any country. what are you interests? what do you want for yourselves? you don't have to do this because we wag our finger at you because the united nations says

you have to do it. they want stable economic growth. they had huge economic growth, but worried about stability. they want social harmony. they want political stability. religious freedom can help them with this because religious individuals are not rebels unless you suppress them and crack down on them. if you allow them a little bit of freedom, which means backing off with this state administration for religious affairs, allowing them to develop their own theologies, doesn't mean you have to change laws about violence or rebellion. it does mean you have to give them a little slack if you do that. what happens? they'll become far more economically productivity. they will contribute to the social causes within china. look at all the terrific internal problems they have with this aids, with leperosy.

the chinese people noticed it was religious people who came into the prosince, and they were struck by that. we need to pick up on this notion. that's what religious freedom is about. it's not about christians or any particular religious group, but about letting people be religious as they see the duty themselves. if you do that, it'll be good for them, but more importantly, it'll be good for your society in your own terms, not just our terms. we don't do that well. we just don't communicate that very well. part of it is the deficiency in the training, and remember the henry kissinger example, and part is we don't have the leadership from the secretary of state and the president of united states to say, hey, we really need to make this a serious effort of our foreign policy. >> professor farr, any lessons learned from the fall of the soviet union and the opening up of religious freedom there? >> yes.

some tough lessons by and large. when the soviet union was overthrown, we were very successful in getting the soviets to pass a law, a religious freedom law, and my friend and colleague, the first ambassador of religious freedom, and the way he tells the story is as soon as this law was passed, opening up russia, all of the christians in the world threw their bibles into their wagons and went off like it was the gold rush in the 1900s or the 1800s in the united states. without regard, in other words, to the culture of russia and particularly the culture of the russian orthodox church which views itself as part of mother russia, and they had been suppressed, many of them, horribly in the period of the army nation, and here all the

other christians of all dominations came rushing into russia as well as muslims and others, and never really talking to the russian orthodox church, never trying to be sensitive about this. it became less a peaceful competition. this has led among other things, the russian orthodox church to say, hey, we don't like this religious freedom, let's go back to good old authoritarian mother russia so we're the stake holders and religious representatives of russia. the result is the orthodox church is supporters of antidemocratic developments in russia. it's a good question because what it tells you is that religious freedom requires a little of sensitivity. you have to be sensitive to the culture whether it's china or russia or pakistan. people feel very strongly about

their religious beliefs, and if you don't take them into account, you're not going to be successful. this is part of what american diplomats need to be trained about. if you're going out to russia as an american diplomat, what you ought to get in the area studies training to learn the russian los angeles, the history -- loslanguage, the history, and it's an important role of education, and as a consequence when we get out there, we don't do this well, and i think that needs to change. that's what the book is about, changing this. i've always been a bit of a religious person, but i knew, you know, it's something you didn't talk about in the foreign services. it didn't play a role in what i did, but here was an office which you had to do it, and i could tell that the people were not taking well to it. people in the building there at c-street, our state department,

they were working kind of scant at this. i was intrigued by that. something new, put the tent kls down, and you have to convince people -- i mean, a lot of people thought this was just an outpost of the christian right, you know, that had been imposed by congress and the christian right. those are two very bad things for the state department of saying that congress is telling us what to do, and the christian right is telling us what to do. neither one of them were very good interpretations in my view, and so i was delighted to be there. president clinton's ambassador in 1999, and, well, he was gone in 2000. in came president bush. it took a couple of years to get bush's ambassador in. >> john hanford. >> john hanford, during the period there was no ambassador, i was the acting ambassador. i described myself in the book as the admiral of the a leaky

row boat with a crew of hearty souls furiously peddling to keep from sinking beneath the waves. it was a lot of fun, but -- and john asked me to stay on, which i did for a year as his deputy. he did some terrific things. he had eight years to do his job, and so, you know, we're still not doing this well. i think the book itself is a plea, not just to look at the human tearon parts of this, but to look at it from our own interests. the countries have interests, the united states does, and our interests are in stability around the world, defeating religion-related terrorism, and if we promote religious freedom better than we do, it boils down to the credit of the american people, their safety, and well-being. >> thomas, has your work in this area changed your faith at all? >> it's deepened it.

i happen to be roman catholic. i'm a convert, and so i'm interested in conversion and that as an aspect of religious freedom, but my own personal blueprint is what i consider a magnificent document, a declaration of religious freedom that came out in the second vatican council of the catholic church. i was not a catholic at the time, but i'm devoted to this. the latin phrase means the dignity of the human person. i think that says a lot, if not all of what needs to be said about religious freedom. human beings, by their nature want to know the answers to the religious questions, and so it is a religious thing for me, but did isn't, and, of course, as a catholic, i invite all people to be cat lick, but this is not what it's about. it's about human beings. it's not about the catholic church or any other church.

it's about a religious understanding of what human beings are, and if they don't have religious freedom, they can't live a fully human life, and that's why societies that don't get it tend to be unstable. i think we have problems in our own country develops in recent years on this, but, of course, we're a long way from the problems in egypt or iraq where people are literally killed because of their religious beliefs or thrown into jail and tortured for them, but the root of the problem may be the same, and that a failure to credit the religious nature of people, and i don't mean to say that, you know, people are religious if they don't they they are religious. christopher hitchens who recently died was a self-proclaimed atheist, but he was religious in my terms in that he wanted to know the answers. he spent his early life looking for answers. he thought he found them. there is no god. i think that's a crazy answer,

but that was his answer. it was a religious quest he was on. i presume he knows the answers to the questions now. it's about human dignity. it's not about prophesying or imposing my beliefs on you, but to answer your question, i believe that what i just said is entirely consistent with the catholic faith, and so it has deepened my faith. as a catholic, i believe i'm being catholic in making these arguments. >> what -- this book is published by oxford, world of faith and freedom and why international religious freedom is vital to national security. what's the witherspoon institute? >> it's a privately funded think tank in princeton, new jersey. it is -- it has a whole host of programs that intersect between

religion and public life. i'm fortunate to be the directer of their task force on international religious freedom, and i have been now for three years. people interested in the witherspoon institute can find it on the website. we're coming out with a volume on this very subject turns out on march the 1st of this year. we'll have at georgetown university, on the campus, a conference to bring out, roll out the book called religious freedom, why not, defending embattled human rights. it's a product of the witherspoon task force, and it's written by timothy samuel shaw who wrote a book across all religions and the strategic reasons which we talked about, and why it's important to not just the united states, but