my point is, what if it turns out -- the so-called average citizen as janis joplin put it, a mercedes-benz. here she is grateful to the corporations were supplying us with oceans of consumer goods and to the pentagon for protecting us from those awful arabs lurking. if that's so the possibilities for fundamental change appeared to be quite small, for what would be called is a set of different institutions in a a and a different type of culture. personally i doubt there's much chance because america after all is -- ..

>> during the question and

answer period come up please raise your hand. we will give you a microphone we're being filmed by a c-span and channel 10. let me will come christopher phillips to talk about "constitution cafe." he has worked for a number of years of civil discourse of what is important to us. he offered socrates cafe which started dialogue on questions of philosophical importunes. there are out over 600

socrates cafe where people gather to discuss important and foes of all issues. "constitution cafe" began to address constitutional apathy and the untouchable nature of the constitution. constitution would be appalled the saying that some look at the constitution was sanctimonious reverence to sacred to be touched. and to be beyond amendment bass discoveries are made made, opinions change with the changes of circumstances they must keep pace with the times. jefferson thought the public

works and those were engaged in defining their own constitution. he suggested there should be written every 19 years until madison told him that may not be a good idea. also signaled little rebellion now and then maybe a bit they but let me turn it over to chris to talk about "constitution cafe." how redoing? did you happen to see the article in "the new york times" last month with a study of constitutions developed of modern times that the u.s. constitution is no longer the model used. it has fallen out of favor.

you did? [laughter] that is perfect. supreme court justice ginsberg said of by were riding the constant -- constitution today i would now use that as a model but most referred to canada as a more relevant model. even before i begin, how many of you today thing the u.s. constitution u.s. constitution is a good model? of lot of view. can you tell me why? the microphone? >> it has been around 2306. >> so the fact it has been

around means it works? i will use you as a foil. how many of you think the federal government works fine and dandy? [laughter] not one hand. is there a disconnect? no. why? >> [inaudible] people are speaking out to and this has been a stable

country. we did have a civil war but putting that aside, there has been us stability and we are a blessing to the world. >> the federal government largely dysfunctional but the constitution does find? the government is stable. >> i will address two questions. is it a good model? there are themes including separation of powers better excellent and worth considering for any new entity making a constitution. in terms of a possible

disconnect between the constitution and the federal government, i am not sure they are perfectly linked. the individuals and the issues that create the port functioning of the government are not necessarily because of the constitution, that does not mean the constitution is not perfect but why the link or suggest a link between the constitution and pour functioning? >> i did not. i am just seeing. >> you think it implies?

i am not so sure. >> several months ago i heard discussions on a book about james madison backed he intended the constitution act as it currently is back and forth between different loss of these that he had consciously set back up up -- that up. >> the problem is congress does not go by the constitution. the president taking orders to violate free them and the national appropriation acts and the representatives will

not stand up to protect us. >> allot of you agree that is the problem? not going by the constitution that we have? but you pointed to the legislative branch. what about the executive branch that is called executive power? legislative branch has pretty much ceded power to the executive branch to declare war. only five in history. last one? world were to. the other ones bailey better not are not worse because congress has not been declared but yet they are funded. the judicial branch has judicial review.

this anything give them this power word to determine matters of constitutionality? nowhere to be seen. who threw down the gauntlet basic the got what about that blacks -- ? thomas jefferson. i was very fascinated by the article that indicated our constitution was the template for so long. it has fallen dramatically out of favor. looking at other constitutions around the world, one just approved

april 2009 says the state shall guarantee of assistance rights and freedoms and have the and material and cultural lives. if a constitution can guarantee that common maybe that is why we're read fall out of favor. k. neve think we're the statement came from? >> this day's show substantially guarantee all citizens freedoms and rights and have the and material and cultural lives. egypt? >> north korea. i see a look of

astonishment. the that mean the constitution does not live op to its billing? >> ms constitution ratified 1973. the completion of this crowns the struggle on the road of popular democracy. for completion of the constitution crowns the people's struggle on the road of popular democracy. >> zimbabwe? >> iran? >> syria. isn't that amazing? one more. the constitution approved

2008 among the basic principles the flourishing of a genuine discipline multiparty democratic system to enhance the internal principles of liberty justice and equality. now you are a good shot. [laughter] myanmar war firm -- formerly known as burma. this one mentions democratic on teen times but it does not allow that to in any blog but it claims it again and again. china.

constitution's don't always live up to their billing. what are they supposed to do? achieve connection? >> constrain the government. said to goals and standards? virtues? >> give rates? >> a lot of state constitutions specified virtues any candidate should have even the state of new hampshire still lists that. most think the u.s.

constitution is basically okay. but there are other problems. jefferson and tried to for the idea act every 19 years we should take a tally to go through it to work our way down and empower ourselves not to say we have to make any changes but is this the best reflection or should certain articles be changed? it never gained traction in his time or our time that get right now people across the political spectrum are

calling for a new constitution convention. the author of the book republic lost has been prominent calling for a new constitutional convention. i say not so fast. how many of you think if you were empowered not through amendments but to start from scratch on many of you think you want to make changes to the constitution? >> how many by and large would keep it to as it is. most of view. how many of you have read the constitution? in the last week?

month? year? that this part of the "constitution cafe" project based on the fact most american events have not. only 4,000 words even with widely varying amounts it is a concise document and as we differ with our interpretations, i believe that constitutional literacy is by no. affecting every aspect of

our lives. senator robert byrd introduced legislation that all schools if they receive federal funding had to study the constitution on constitution day. but a comprehensive national survey conducted shows most americans have not read it. it shows that they're not doing what they are supposed to do. so that instruction is not working. one of the reasons i started the constitution can -- cafe project to ask their verse

american debut could change the constitution what language would you put it and why? with this project pretending to be framers we have to immerse ourselves in the existing document. this month they to argue about interpretations but another matter when used as a springboard for when doing bridge if any we introduced today. as the impetus of what we like today. mall of america, a food court, even william and mary

and maybe i have not immersed myself as i should seto i wondered what people thought. anybody familiar with socrates cafe? started in 1996 during the clinton did the industry should. people were polarizes and discourse was interrupting interrupting, and i felt democracy could not drive a that was the only model. as a means or developing the virtues they celebrate of a

difference. can you imagine a? but imaginative play they had of the wanting to know what other people thought. i tried to take those virtues taken or to the "constitution cafe" project. when socrates started we thought clinton may be impeached now thankfully we have come together eyes widened. [laughter] you are laughing. why are you laughing? we are more polarized than ever? there is different points of

view to celebrate defense of perspective. trying to put herself in places where the chances are good to have different points of view. we take the time to listen of why we are coming from the difference is that typically we try to have 2/3

participants agree of what new language we would tobias of what are the colby would supplant. that takes time and is not always work. it did not work with the second amendment. groups were evenly divided every time. the division was based on the interpretation of the existing amendment. they did agree it was atrociously written you can read into it with everyone to. even to make a big wage more clear they deferred. but almost every time look at an article between 60 and

80% of folks wanted to make significant changes. does that speak to the fact if we got together we would. maybe over time that leads to a new constitutional convention. but any calls today are very premature. before we even consider such a notion we need to read and appreciate the current document. >> your distinguishing to say it not so fast but in terms of practices by the dow burning bodies that are not really a part of the tradition but are not really

embedded. >> like that term encrusted like barnacles. it would be a long book. encrustation. i wish that i use that. using statutes as a result of the articles but a close examination of the articles and as they exist now. if people practice to operate our government as is reflected in everything would be fine. purchase appliance point* out the proactive but yet 70

thain this have bet read into the constitution and for vacuums felt. even the most conservative framers would be very surprised at how few changes have been made. since the bill of rights only 17 amendments. how many of you think that is good? last amendment i believe is number 27 past 1992. it has been a long time. that made its way through congress 1789. and made it out along time

it took until 1992 to the past dealing with a congressional pay raise. that would be an impossibility today to make it out of congress 15 years ago. do you know why? because now congress and very rare occasions does allow the amendment to be out now gives time the mets on how long it can be considered. of the constitution mentions nothing about time limits. people argue before the supreme court is this constitutional and the

supreme court using the unconstitutional powers as says yes. they do. there was a big cruncher mercy of equal rights amendment. congress had the time of it. it became very close to being passed. they asked for it to the 11 longer but since then they have been given the arbitrary time limit. sews those "constitution cafe" guidelines they think the time limit is not like -- right so there is language in there to fill that hole. how many of the thing down the road as we become

constitutionally inveterate is a good idea to have a constitutional convention? why? >> if you have a well informed political body and the citizen body than that is definitely your best opportunity to create a lasting document that is more applicable to today's environment. >> so would be a much more probable idea? >> a better opportunity.

>> that the country has a well informed background and history but this country no longer has. there is too much possess rather than the dead history that some people repeats itself and nobody pays attention. were people need to know the history which goes to education. i don't know of that low change. >> thank you. my hope and expectation is maybe the gatherings at least get people much more curious about their past for

a arcane to a much greater appreciation of our framers. have been leaving maybe with a better sense of history it could be as a better idea. but if we did have a new constitutional convention, what process would you choose for were framers? the same process for choosing the original framers? what was that process? did the people have been the

input? nine. self elected and sell selected held behind closed doors and there is no public record of the proceedings. if we had of group of well-informed citizens would you why did the democratic process? >> if we are well-informed to that does not mean we would not remade eyes polarized so those who push to be at the convention and how the best interest to get their position. >> vested interest? heaven forbid. >> bad this necessary.

>> is there a process to make sure those that serve our reflective of the populace? >> is long as there was not a super committee to take care of our problems over budgets are deficits. >> you did not like the super committee? [laughter] i hear that to quite a bit. i don't mind in theory a democratic process but i doubt one good tea party or the moveon.org people. is there a way to have the democratic process for choosing the framers?

if we freeman new constitution you may not want a democracy. we are not even the democracy we are a constitutional republic that means those that office are to appear to the constitution. >> i think the solution maybe parliamentary. going back to jefferson's brilliant weaving of the deal is of his time. when john lott said any form of government becomes the is

the right of the people to write to -- to alter or abolish it. but with the constitutional convention, benjamin franklin put a great deal of his insight into the iroquois a democracies which were council based. with much smaller communities but recognizing the elder with experience and the potential of the younger people. >> you already in vision and the form of government. i am looking at changing changing -- or finding

framers for that scaffolding. >> does about parliamentary system allow for more frequent elections of those who framed the government as we move along? >> what is the process that is fair to choose if we stay with the temperament we have now? is there a process for actually selecting the framers? is difficult. we might assume you want the process to the democratic core baby due wide the elite or better educated? how they want to that? you would? >>

[inaudible] if you build the rocket you don't ask the average american but the special was. >> the original framers commended the word great statesman and political thinkers. i think madison to this day is a great thinker but they could not envision and the vast republic be paid we should get to experts? >> i agree we need experts but there needs to be fundamental changes the way they take their pedestal.

these days away congressional districts are redrawn it is a partisan exercise rather than voters selecting candidates but the representatives are selecting their boaters. and recently outside money is a big issue. if those are cleaned up perhaps we have more statesman then going to the experts is a good map did. >> perhaps. won a the dialogues the recount even though he was not thought that constitution he was repression to put the sustained a glitch in our constitution says when choosing members of

congress, we can have one member for how many? >> not less they and 30,000. >> existing constitution says one member for every 30,000 constituents. how many good your average member have? hundreds of thousands. i had a meeting where we talk about that. the number of members of congress was increased

gradually as population increased then it y s cost of 435. one members tavis copac to say one member for every 30,000 constituents. how many members? more than you want to pay for. [laughter] and 10,000. is that way too much? 10,000 members? >> we have 432 with 25 staffers you have the same number. eliminate the staffers with one member, and no staffers

for every 30,000. i personally like that idea. they my eight e-bay get to know you by name and not then time raising money for the election. and is not that far-fetched and don't even make changes to the constitution. we are using our imagination but what is so bad eliminating the staffers to have a bonafide congresspersons? now remember the cradle democracy in ancient athens for the first 5,000 workers

riled and they were legislators. it would be a big stadium but with the internet we could create intimacy so it is not slowed difficult a proposition but that could be an idea that would begin with choosing for nabors for a new constitutional convention. i will read the dialogue i held about this subject. i thought we were examining the existing article to ratify. how many original colonies had to approve? nine. exactly nine of the original states did approve the

constitution. do think they knew how many they needed? [laughter] ratification of a convention of nine states shall be sufficient for this constitution and the states to ratify. "constitution cafe" can take the unexpected direction. the first participant in the north end of boston. who met back there? the regional tea party not to confuse themselves but the green dragon original tea party. i always assumed it says

ours is a government of and by and for the people. 01 men who works as part of the cooperative. that turns out that phrase is in the gettysburg address. and lincoln told the 15,000 people who came to hear him speak the civil war was not fought to have a new birth of freedom. monday when a government to of the people for the people that shall not perish from

the year. less those fares are democratically elected. the preamble we the people does not gloss over we were created by 55 white males maybe behind closed doors they even an ad away article seven requiring the approval of nine of 13 exactly nine states voted to ratify. this ponselle woman named sylvia to say if this but to

feature a government of the people of half's do have an article detailing the process for ratification. but then even a process for how the framers for drafting the constitution are chosen. the dishing -- this constitution does not have that not only the government created but the process by which the form of is decided upon and this requires a totally opposite process broke sour ask what would you recommend? a woman says we could create an article how to choose and ratify a. something like each state

shall name x number of delegates to take part of the constitutional convention, upon construction the final ratification will require the approval by a majority boaters in each state only then shaw the constitution be deemed established. then says it is better if the framers are chosen randomly just as people are picked to sit on a jury than the framers are representative. some of you like that. some if you are dismayed. by that process i assume you mean back convention that -- conventional election with a campaign in

followed by a vote? that means those with the most money to campaign would likely be elected as delegates. it advantage of a random selection process as long as the random sample is large enough insures there is a true cross-section. sylvia says i was member of students for democratic society. anybody? referring to the left activist movement, she had with tours of copy of the regional constitution and. the preamble approved at our convention says ours was the

association of young people on the left seat gain to create a sustained committed the of educational and political concerns. maintains the vision where all levels of people have control of the decisions to affect them and the resources on which they were dependent. she goes on it claimed to have the government of and by and for the people bo it is clear the subset of americans liberals and radicals and students and faculty realize what the constitution described as us a society they have control of the decisions and the resources on which they are dependent. i have offered -- often

wondered can one small segment of the framers of the original constitution can create a government of and by and for the people as most are left data-processing itself? then the next says i am not sure if half's to include the participation of everyone or random sample. he says maybe put matters most is that final product details how to make a detriment, trooper crow the constitution was created by just two people. and those being served by

the year and is a share. with the policy making and program implementation everybody's vote counted equally. only staff members got to vote. raffaello says the proposed which change the policy for price adjusted if the group will be what it claims than the people we serve must play an equal part in the process. that would be rio empowerment. my fellow staff members accuse me of being idealistic as an inflection.

those opposed argue the people we serve word to down and out to make their own decisions. if you want to make them less down and out let them decide. they that i was crazy so left soon afterwards know i think maybe her suggestion is right on target. the constitution weather and nonprofit or committed the your country asked to be have a random sample of those who have to live by the dictates. it is really a product of we the people. >> i am starting to come around to this viewpoint if it was randomly selected called for a type of government all those make

decisions there is a greater likelihood that will become a reality. here is the article was near unanimous. >> each state shall appoint to a constitutional convention delegates authorized to construct a federal constitution burger the delegates shall be chosen randomly in order to have a viable random sample issue of the 50 times that number of congress wends completed it requires the ratification of the majority of voters only then that sufficient for the establishment of this constitution between the states. >> have to cut this off but we're running out of time. >> one-two give people to

ask whether to questions we have to be out of the room at 11:00 and we have a book signing. >> experts running faint would have lawyers. [laughter] that is two months the country now. so you have something stupid like property rights now they say will make you do something you don't want to do with their property that is like romney getting the nod with the morgan white house -- more men white house. >> one of the original 13

states there was a democratic process do know the state? pennsylvania. not only could property holders vote but and a white male paying taxes are owning property. ordinary people could run to be a delicate they chose to ordinary framers to be delegates they can lump would pay radically participatory democracy i write about that and "constitution cafe." take a look. is an amazing process until

it was done away with it. but for a short time there was an experimental democracy in pennsylvania. the one person who shuttled between the federal and the pennsylvania and is benjamin franklin. he liked this. >> one more question. >> i believe in the constitution but to if you change it, would it even charlie phase out the old one complete the? >> i don't know. do you think that is good or bad? >> there are some in the

basics which are important like assembly and basic guidelines come of blacks, freedom i have a hard time explaining but how was it handled. >> a very interesting point*. the state constitution had a fourth branch called the people. in this state legislature passed and the law they have one year to go to to rescind it. there was a fourth level. >> coming from the top down

like we wait for our were government why not make it bought them up to put out there the voices are heard? men's and women's and all ethnicities and a genders. it seems if we have an oligarchy now they will tell us how to do things that may not engender of a true reinventions finreg it is said good point* and a good way to wrap up. article v there is a process and backend is some by which we can your round existing powers. it came close to being exercised once. the people right now they can