yes. >> the environmental impact? >> i do. right up front. cash is filthy. the fumes of all those armored truck vehicles and the process of extracting 25,000 tons of copper every year and is barely a constituent ingredient to any more in the penny and zinc mining and the rest of it. ..

this is a little over an hour. >> welcome to cambridge for them, discussing deng ziaoping wit ezra vogel. i will serve as moderator. it's a great pleasure to introduce ezra vogel pities the henry ford americanist undoes japan and china and is visited asia every year since 1958. over his career, professor vogel is out there to collect the 15 books come in many articles for both academic and journalist for the japanese edition of his 1979 that japan is number one lesson for america is still the all-time best seller in america by western author.

he began studying the transformation of china spending eight months at the invitation of the kwanzaa and explained the economic and social progress since he took the lead in pioneering economic reform in 1978. the result was a book which appeared in 1849. he retired from teaching in 2000 i arrived at harvard in 2007 and the encouragement and friendship that ezra has offered. a former junior college since his retirement, but of course befriending junior colleagues has not been his only retain you. he's devoted his time to completing his book on deng ziaoping and is out. it was given that price for contributions to international understanding that i'm sure it's going to be the first of many awards for this extraordinary

book. the master: comprehensive study chronicles deng spur to 1904 at the end of his dynasty to his death in 1997 only a few months before the return of hong kong to mainland. deng safe as an experienced towards revolution, the maoist area and finally the economic boom of opening up in reform and deng played in mutual and animation politics and development over the good. how do you deng ziaoping find a way to turn china into wealthy and powerful member of the international community equates what personal and cultural factors contributed to his success? what obstacles to the face? how did local go about researching and writing the study of deng's life and legacy? [applause] >> thank you very much.

it's a great pleasure to be introduced by mike soni who is one of the large stars around the world have intended phd at oxford and coming from canada originally and her producer of lucky to have him as a professor of chinese history. when i was retiring from hereford in 2000, i was trying to think what i could do that would help make americans better to understand what was going on in asia and i decided -- we need to get a little closer? i decided that china is the most complicated problem we face in the future one of the most useful ways of the transformation that took place in china decided us on the path. if you want to understand united states in madison and jefferson, washington cannot reform the

country, that would be a very good basis for understanding what was going on in the united states. so current china was very much shaped by deng ziaoping. deng ziaoping came to power in 1978 and he really was the dominant person right up until 1992 for a period of about 14 years. what i thought it would do in that brief time today i was told to not talk more than 20 minutes, with the two talk about some of the forces that shape and made him what he was. in 1978 the country he inherited had a per capita income of less than $100 per capita. now it's estimated somewhere around 6000 deng said annan. almost no migration from the countryside to the city. and since he came perhaps

200 million people move from the countryside towns and cities. when he came to power, the country was still involved in the cultural revolution and people were full of energy towards each other and he worked to unite the country to set it on the new path. what are some of the forces that shaped him? one when he was 15 years old he was in the kerry high school and szechuan and in the year 1919, just after the precise treaty they were sent out rank of students in beijing or was still the first by dana chinese nationalist and deng at that time was the youth and high

school, but a few high schools were very progressive and joined in the demonstration. erick erickson is talked about how certain youth at a certain time when they had their identity formed within movement or with an institution becomes very basic centro to his whole life. and so is hoped so his whole dedication through natural purpose really began already at age 15. the second thing i would mention is his experience in france from 1920 to 25. after world war i, a lot of chinese students wanted to go abroad. in europe and australia and a scholarship.

and they would send students to graduate works part time and they would earn money and study and come back and bring what they learn to china and at the time, deng ziaoping is 16, one of the youngest in the group to pass the exam to go to france and of other countries that chinese students wanted to go to at that time, france was the main one. during world war i, about half a million chinese workers went to the soviet union to work at about 150,000 went to france. so there were a lot of work opportunities and friends and the chinese thought that was a great center to civilization. so a group of view went to france in 1920 -- early 1920s

and from the group came the communists are asleep. what happened to get their first of all they had to be pretty well-educated than not that their parents had to get married priests if they were not from the work of past pass a class. they were from the landlord class and the bush world-class. but when they got there, what they found was there were no jobs from them. the friend she has survived the war had come back. france is suffering from inflation and devotion and a factory job that was available when two frenchmen and they saw a account loyce were living very lavish homes and very luxurious style of life. and yet the workers were very poor. and at best a chinese who were over there could get to decrease each of the ordinary french workers didn't want to get. so when they form their study groups and try to think of what

is the broader explanation of what is going on, which has happened several years earlier the soviet union in 1917 made a lot of sense. it seemed like the blue schwab people were exploiting the working class and that the countries that were already fairly well rebuilt were exploiting -- the imperialists were exploiting those from poorer nations said the group that had gone to france that was so disappointed they could not study in the universities, they were not able to save enough light to get into university said they just can t. need to work in that you fear that they were very disillusioned both with their own country for not coming up with scholarships when it would encourage to go there and for the french government for not making any effort to support them. and so they formed the communists workweek. the leader of the group in france was showing i was about

six years older and deng and became weak foreign minister and was the man who created henry kissinger and nixon when they went to china in 1971, 72. the third experience i think was very critical in shaping deng scared kerry and his point of view. within the wartime from 1937 to 1949. he was in the army for 12 years and it was inactive for time. so his job as political commissar in one of the leading units a major is different commander for the largest military battle in the history, his role was to try to rally the troops. a lot of other leaders in the

man was much more protected from outsiders and it went to talk about theory and philosophy and train new generations. deng is on the frontlines for 12 years. his job is to get ready for the next battle. he had to be pragmatic. he didn't have time to talk about theory and philosophy. he had learned. moscow after france, where he was for a year, but he didn't have the time really to engage in the battle. if you engage in theoretical discussion, he was so busy with the battles. another important influence i should have mentioned about a year in moscow was that when he was 10 months go was 1926 to 1927. at that time come the soviet union had a new economic policy. the new economic policy is of the communist party in chargecome up the ramp up markets open to foreign trade,

foreign investments in the communist party was able to provide leadership for the. "deng ziaoping and the transformation of china" had the same when he was in charge of the southwest bureau, six provinces of southwest china, which had about a million people because that was before what they had the socialist transformation the communes. so deng had lots of experience in leading communist parties and yet having an open record economy. so after 1978 when he began to develop that pattern of the communist party leading it wasn't new to him. he heard he that experience. another important experience that help shape deng ziaoping. masa teen headlights now way

back when he was criticized and purged for leading to mouth action. he was in the tung chee province and down there he was accused of following too closely and he was purged for that. so that didn't tiered deng to mal. he could see was a capable person, right, able and so they bonded very early. and so from mid-1950s until 1966, deng had the general secretary of the party, so while mao in a way was chairman of the board as chairman of the party and was also chairman of the country, deng ziaoping do with

practical issues. i think another thing that shaped deng was the failure to deport. in 1959, when the great leap forward was really devastating the countryside, people were starving in large numbers on the latest estimates are that perhaps 40 or 2 million people died prematurely because of sam and that was caused by the excessive established communist system that was not based on realities and was not based on what was going on in the outside world. mao had never been abroad, but deng had been abroad and been abroad and had a much better sense of what was going on. now let me know from this influence is too wide deng tape

when he came to power in 78. mao had died in 76 and was still pursuing the revolution to the end. he wanted to shape up the country and to have people attack those who were going to what was called the capitalist road, richer for it into independent. and so most of the senior leaders of the party were criticized and purged. so deng ziaoping, one of the first things he did when he too -- came back after being purged again by mao in 1975, one of the first things he did was start working on education. he took over responsibilities and science technology and 77 when he came back to work. mao had purged them once at the

beginning of the coast revolution, but he always wanted to think of deng as someone who might learn the lessons and be faithful in the long run. so while some other people who were purged aydin present, deng was sent off in the hope was to come back and work for the good of the country and really hope the place grow. well, deng when he came back in august 1977, 1 of the first things he did was open the university and require entrance examinations. the universities have been closed in 1966 at the beginning of the rev examinations. the universities have been closed in 1966 at the beginning of the revolution and deng fell for the country to the crass assault of four modernizations in history, agriculture, national defense, science technology education was the most important and he wanted the students to come back to the universities. in order to do that he wanted to

have entrance examinations. under mao political considerations were always very important to getting its universities and going for higher education. said two other people who are absolutely red. deng for people in 1977 were no longer landlords. they have been wiped out early in the 1950s. therefore the country could go strictly by marriott. so entrance to universities for strictly by marriott. in 1977 when deng decided to open universities, he made entrance examinations and those who passed cardin. so the people who first passed the test for like 7 million who took the exams and only a few hundred thousand could enter the universities. but that group of talented people, many who had worked in the countryside or been involved

in other labor when they wanted to study for extraordinarily and floats to deng ziaoping. another thing deng did that was very basic within people abroad to study. when frank press, president carter's science adviser, who was in m.i.t. professor in earth science went to china in december of 1978, but they had just begun talks on normalization and deng said to frank price, we want to send hundreds of students to the united states as soon as we normalize relations about what tens of thousands to go later. are you ready to accept that? poor frank price didn't know quite what to do. he found jimmy carter in the middle of the night. i interview jimmy carter about his role in motivating to deng and he said he didn't need to

wake up and donate. he will come at 3:00 a.m. and such urgo had pairs of deng was ready to go ahead and send the students abroad. now over 1 million had been abroad. and deng's students for able to achieve what he was not able to achieve in the 1920s, the opportunity to learn worldwide what was going on. one of the biggest reforms that deng made whiskey collectivization. and to manage this politically was quite extraordinary because many people who were dedicated communists and many of those who worked in the countryside felt that the commune system of space it at collectivization was the basis of what they were trying to do. deng managed to hand this politically dutifully. he didn't do like an american politician of standing up in a campaign and saying i'm going to do you collect device.

not at all. what he did was to allow one of his best friends to go as first party secretary as province of anhui camacho said that because starvation. he said if people are starving, you've got to let them do whatever they can to find a way to grow their own food and survive and not starve to death. even conservatives couldn't oppose that. and so he let local peasants decide what they could to to get ahead. and sure enough, a lot of them begin farming their own family plots and broke off in the big collective spirit and in what deng did come a sense of journalists to observe what happened in report and they reported beijing that it was a lot of progress.

production had gone way up in the areas where they traded. and then deng announced that it people really wanted to in areas where there was serious famine, and they should be allowed on a broader scale to find a way to produce goods on their own. and within a year or so, over 90% of the country had the cultlike devised. it was a way and which deng kept supported the conservatives. he didn't go out on any land and he let the thing developed gradually so that more people supported it. in the fall of 78, one of the reasons why invention has filed in the revolution has been so important is because it led him to think that the chinese need to go a different path than one of the important things was also

farming good relations with the major countries from which they would learn. yet are deep into europe in 1974 in 1975 as well as 1920 to 25. so in a visit to the united nations in new york and france's 74 in france and 75 into southeast asia and early 1978, hit a good idea what was going on in the outside world, that he wanted others to get the same kind of message. so in the summer of 1978, he encouraged delegation crew moved, a prime minister vice deputy minister to lead a group of people from all the major economic unit, of the major economic planning construction commission enlargement history is concerned with various kinds

of ministries to take a five tour of europe. when they came back, some people thought it was a tired man named boo-boo. when they came back, some people thought they would have a meeting that lasted a couple hours. they started at 3:00 p.m., finished at 12 mid-night. but the group reported was china was far behind the west, much further behind than they thought. also however, european countries were ready to lend money to help out with technology. so rather than being discouraged by being so far behind europe, they were very excited about what they could do as a result of deficit. so in the 1980s, another thing deng did was to open up markets to the outside world. and here phone palm played a key role. he knew if he immediately set the whole country should have

market with the conservatives would be inferior to that of the a lot of polarization. what he did was say let's try experiments because they were going someplace place he about some of the special economic zone down there in hong kong, shinto, along the southeast coast, areas in which a lot of chinese had migrated overseas to begin to open up little zones. he also knew the people who had migrated overseas often have been successful business people and would be willing to invest in their own local area. so he let them begin to bring in. and because the government was so short of money, they relied heavily on these outside investors to provide the funds necessary to get this experiment started. and once the experiment started, then deng encouraged high-level

leaders to go see the progress and of course they were stunned by the new industry and construction base of and have built up a broader basis of support. so those experiments, when successful then began to spread to localities. in 1989, deng faced a very serious problem of student demonstrations. the students -- let me back up. we can in 89, job arbatov was invited to -- gorbachev was invited to beijing. they been broken off by deng himself when they would to argue with cisco. in 1989 he invited gorbachev and his wife to come on the

condition that they pull out of afghanistan, pull the troops back from a northern chinese border and viacom pull out of cambodia to gorbachev accepted deng's conditions. so deng and budget these people from all of the world to come to beijing. so they found some student demonstrations that started out over the type of who you bomb who is a progressive open leader who died suddenly and the students were so upset that their beloved leader had died and he wanted to more democracy and more openness and so they began to demonstrate. there is still a lot of political control over students and ordinary people got upset them. so there was one of the urban support for the students demonstrating.

and after gorbachev left, they still didn't quite sound and so deng warned them that if they didn't quite done he would have to take some stronger steps. on may 201989, he broadened the troops unharmed to try to get control. but they couldn't get control. they ran into all kinds of obstacles in the people who didn't want troops coming into the city. and so he supported what other leaders decided to do, to allow the troops to do whatever was necessary to retain order and on june 3rd, june 4, they entered the city and the best data we have is that many 700, 800 people were killed on the streets of beijing during that crack down. i think if i'd written a book 20 years ago, nobody would have paid attention to it because people were so upset by what

deng did to crack down on june 4 that nobody would like to think about his historical role. in my book, try to be very clear exactly what deng did in cracking down on june 4 and there's still a lot of people who feel that was a terrible thing. but i think is a look at chinese history, we have to recognize his historical contribution. if we look at people like thomas jefferson and george washington, the own slaves, lots of slaves. as a terrible thing, and inhumane thing. the food to think about their role in history just unbuttoning slavery, we would miss a lot about what they did to form their country. and i think deng ziaoping is a complicated character. he did crack down and felt they needed to to keep the peace and allow the country to grow. but he also led the country to

modernization. since he came to power perhaps 300 million people have come out of poverty and are now living fairly comfortable lives. the countryside has turned into an open area. he has brought modernization technology, raised the standard of living and chinese people have really joined the world, entered international organizations. students come abroad and back to china per unique technology, new ideas so is truly transformed the country. i think personally if you start to think which leader of the 20th century did more to change the shape of world history, i think there is a strong argument that maybe it was deng ziaoping. ..

[applause] you're joining us at cambridge form with ease are a vogue l. discussing his acclaimed buyingy when you were talking about his

life in the military and army you mentioned that he was pragmatic and too busy join theory. which is ironic which is given the author of "deng xiaoping and the transformation of china" which students in china have to to study. one of the interesting thing i found is some of the reforms he was famous was begun under his predecessor. some of his other reforms market opening markets involve transforming practices that he been tried in south korea and taiwan, was deng xiaoping a visionary? was he simply a good learner? or was it that suggested in the conclusion a competent manager? >> guest, well, i go join the confident manager. join one phrase, because the idea of a reform in opening was yet unique to deng xiaoping.

and the suck cover the one who chose to be the suck suck cover who turned out to be not great. a lot of the senior officials were in favor of the a lot of reforms. to some extent he didn't have a very long time. and whether visionaries is the right word but when he thought about hong kong he said join fifty years he can kept the present system. if you ask president obama join what you would be doing join the next fifty years. no american leader can, you know, four years is a long-term. and to think of the end of the term to the next election. so i think he did a have a long-term perspective. at the same time, he was experimental, and he didn't have fixed notions, and he was used the expression across the river

by grouping join stones. again, the term was somehow interpreted to deng. he didn't invent the term. he used the terms, he usinged the ideas. he was the manager who put it all together and provided the direction and affirm hand that made. all happy. >> host: >> host: you also about iting his skill of the politician and pushing through reforms. we seen just this week with the leading stars in the firm meant of young leaders in china that personality, politics and factual politics remain important in china. what enabled deng to be so successful at managing and reconciling factual interest and factual interests? >> guest: one thing, i think he had the authority from working very closely with with move. he worked very closely with both

of them and learned foreign relation. he worked under him in france as a young man. and he also worked very closely with mao. but i think it was also he was smart. he remembered things. he had a perspective on history. when i interviewed about deng xiaoping, lee met many of the world leaders. he thought he was as great as leader as he met. he was able to recognize that what he had learned and what he practice was not working. and was ready to try something new. but step by step in a way that people could accept it and not would not add to plo lar decision but help resolve it. >> that's a skill that many poll decisions could benefit from

having. welcome as we continue the discussion of deng xiaoping with ezra vogel. what role did deng bring in bringing china today in the international economy? at this point in the program we'll take questions from the audience. please line up and ask one question. we want to get as many of you as possible a chance to ask your questions. >> guest: thank you. i'm wondering for you would care to go off from the common logical history about what deng did to develop the country into the cultural anthropology and political philosophy. as the great chinese miracle is blooming there are tens of thousands of chins in africa and other parts of the world gathering resources to feed the great dry con, if you want to call it that and how the cheens chins people that are in the foreign country are absorbing,

information education weather that they want to stay within the countries that they visited or are they pledged or dedicated to return? talk about the hom, about the buddhist, stuff like that in the scheme of this development of chin. think thirty, fort years out are from there. >> guest: i'm happy to make a few comments. first of all, revolutionary in theory, he blocked mobility. he lead people in the country side had to stay in the country. they couldn't move to the city. people who worked in the certain unite in the city were bonded to that unit. and they couldn't move easily to other units and the housing was owned by the states. so what deng did by opening up migration, allowing people to move from the country side to the city as they had the food to

feed the city population. completely transformed a society a really rigid and locked one into one that was mobile. the old family system in a lot of rural areas was not reserved when you moved so rapidly. and when the people in the city only had one child. as for the chins overseas there were many different kinds of reasons. and many different some. some are diplomats that want to keep good relations. some are working join someone in a private capacity to find out what's going on and pass it up to the leaders. some are companies that are out there to make money. and look at investments. some are energy companies that are set by the state to try to establish solid sources of

energy that will continue to fuel china as it continues to add more automobiles and more fuel plants and make -- remaining china. maybe that's a quick answer to some of your concerns. i think it's a quick overview. >> i just have one comment and one question. first of all. the comment is what underlines of what you just described all he did. that is his uncan any and ability to seize power. for example, shortly after he was he started restructuring the decor of the chinese communist of the leadership. and the other example is, that the the 1979, that the real purpose was to challenge --

of the communist party at the time soon after that, the communist party was marchallized and eventually pulled out of the leadership. so, without his ability to seize the top power, when in the communist party. nothing would be possible. the question is, just very recently -- within the court, the chins court, the chinese the reevaluate the decision of the massacre. of course, this being highly controversial within the court but that the communist. so i want to comment on the

impact that impact on the chinese communist party on the turning the table around on this issue. >> guest: first year assumption, general comment it is true the course anybody had to have a firm grip on power to carry out his activities and it is true that was pushed aside within two years after the vietnam war. but i don't think those are related. and i talked to lee who followed the vietnam war very carefully. i talked to many others, and it went through the records of the war, what deng was concerned about in 1979 when he invaded vietnam, was that the soviets and the vietnamize were

cooperating. the united states pulled out of vietnam, he was very worried that the soviet union and the vietnam were going to circle around and circle china the base was being used by soviet ships. there was a real danger of the circling. that was the reason he went to war in vietnam. there were plenty of other ways to push him aside, and he didn't have to do much of the pushing. it was done by others, basically it was done in november 1978, by a group of seniors. while deng was in the southeast asia. they basically began to push him aside. secondly, on the question about the june 4th, it is true that a lot of people in china who feel that those who were

criticized join forming demonstrations and so forth should be considered patriots. and that their cases should be reversed. they should not longer be considered people who challenged the order, but who helped the order. because there are certain people living who were deeply involved in the june 4th, and i'm thinking the suck cover who wasn't there we succeeded after that. i think it's my best friends who know about the inside power and things inside the china suggest that it would probably take many more years. they do expect that it will be a reversal of verdicts. but probably not throughout his lifetime. thank you. ears ezra vogel, i appreciate your coming from the

experimental major in the reform, and china going through a long history of reform without blueprints, and i was also worning. i haven't read your book. i'm curious, when you said that he a long-term vision of hong kong fifty years. did he have similar vision on taiwan. if so, had it been going his way? >> guest: thank you. thank you all your help the fur bank center. he did have a long vision join taiwan. he wanted taiwan also to have the system same system join fifty years. he was ready to station troops in taiwan, let them have their own troops. he wasn't able to resolve the taiwan issue. what he thought was most

critical americans were still sending arms to taiwan. therefore taiwan was not willing to begin a new. he felt that along as the united states was behind they didn't have to negotiate. now we have a very complicated situation. one of the tensions between the united states and chinese is taiwan. because american arms to taiwan, taiwan does not have to have political integration. they can remain independent. that's very disturbed. he hoped in his lifetime he would achive the unification of taiwan. i think the most bitter disappointment with his achievements he was not able to bring taiwan back into the mainland. >> it's hard to see the business of taiwan talking about it becoming inevitable. >> guest: it certainly would. >> proffer, i have a question

about the current administration. china is going through changing of guards this year. , and recent school dahl it seems like there is, you know, comment that china's going to go backwards. it's going to be less open. i wonder what is your view about the new administration. are they following the path of deng xiaoping becoming more open more reform. or do you think it's kind of going backwards? >> guest: there are a lot of things we don't know and in the united states before a person takes office, we have election campaigns with their constant exposure to tv and press conferences. now the new successor. he knows if he speaks out it may

disrupted things. it's very difficult join them to analyze what he'd do. he'll not telling or stating his polsz policies. one can say a few things from his background to give some clues. one is when he was the party secretary, he was very open, secondedly, that when he met foreigners in australia and japan and ottawa, they feel that he's a very open man they can deal with in a frank and direct way. he's very bright. the third thing i would say, judging by his father, who was very unusual. he was one of the leaders of the new opening, the special economic zones, and was out on the front and doing that. and also, was criticized and thrown out in january '87.

is known as the most liberal in all of the chinese leaders. the only one that stood up is the father. there is some reason join hope that this leader will be a more open leader and continue reforms more than the present leader is doing. >> we go to order here. the question. so many people say the transformation of china is not yet complete, and the leader the transformation of china is not yet complete. and then the part people have done join do you deng xiaoping as opposed to the economic transformation. and the transformation is predicted to be more difficult and may involve more interest groups. what do we learn from deng's

leadership skills. and the strategies he used. how many can we apply those experiencing the difficult transformation? >> guest: as you know, the inspiration continueses revolution i think can use the word continue reform. it's not just one stage that it's all done forever. i think the reforms in opening will continue, and i think, for example, the rule of law will become more important. however, i don't think that necessarily they're -- we should expect them to follow western style democracy. it's not clear to me that that is their vision. i think they do need to find a way to have broader public representation. so that the leaders have a broader base legacy just in perpetuating the communist party.

their experiencing with communist needs avoiding the national people's congress. there's more voting. there are more cases where you select a group of potential leaders and let the people concerned choose the group. and so these experiments with the village elections so i think that these experiments will continue. and that reforms of many kinds will continue join many years. i think particularly now that corporation has become so wide spread, it's such a serious problem, that they will have to take firmer steps than corruption than the current learpd leader does. >> thank you. i'm a cambridge residence, my wife is --

i think that mr. vogue l is a well-known chinese expert. and i think you know what you talked about, you know, about deng xiaoping's factor, you know, his competence, the leader all agree with you. he's a very good, he opened the door thirty some years ago, one of the benefits person. i come to you now to state 32 years ago, but deng xiaoping is a good decision maker. he makes decisions very quick. but sometimes he made them too

quick. so, in 1989 june 4th the trouble is caused by his own. if you don't discharge the statutory -- you won't have so many students after he passed away and dead on the street. so this is after his -- yeah, also -- >> as a quick decision maker and move to a quick question. >> yeah. i want to say something. and he is also not as good reader. he's a good leader but not good reader.

all his spare times, he's played bridge. bridge the people and, you know, he promote his partner to be high position. so it makes some respect, you know, i don't want to waste people's money it's time. buy your book. and i appreciate my comments to your book. [laughter] >> guest: thank you very much. i think dunn deng did play bridge once or twice a week. it's not true that all the people he played bridge with were promoted. i was able to interview one or two of his bridge players. and he was a brilliant bridge

player. also, deng tried to -- when he played bridge, he often got his bridge playing start, he thought it was a good mental exercise to think about bridge. and so, he often had often had a partner who was a bridge playing star, and the other side had one. so he thought that would improve his own skill. he also liked to play pocket ball to billiards. he often played that also. >> join at program at harvard medical school that brought chinese students here to learn about basic sciences. and the interesting thing is that students were all very bright, and they knew their facts, but if the teachers said the processer is. they never questioned anything.

and so one of the chinese-american professors deliberately gave them wrong instructions join the lab experiment. when when the lab experiment didn't work, he said you believed me? is it still true? or are they able to question the processers. >> since chinese has 1.3 billion people there's qiebility of a variation. there is a strong kernel of truth that is still truth. that in the better high schools, the key point is to get ready for the university exams. and that's learning facts and mastering information and they do that very well. and the critical judgment is not something that they is as much a part of chinese education is a part of ours. however, they had 1.1 million people who have gone abroad.

a lot of them have spent enough time here, that they have more critical minds, and with 00,000 of that group has gone back. a lot theme have become teachers at key universities. there is an attempt in many universities to try to develop critical thinking, and a bigger way. but still, i think the dominate nant party is learn the facts and the information and see who is the brightest at the insertion to get in the next level of examination. that's still very dominant. and in chinese now wants to become the world leader in science technology, and i think it's not only that the party has trouble attracting the world's best scholars because of some clamping down on thought and free expression. i think it's fundamental issue

you draw attention to. that is, people are not taught to think critically. >> if your experience. i think we're the beneficiary of that here at harvard. we have students that rejected that and demand critical thinks. those are some of our very are brightest. the exams and beyond that they also develop critical thinking. they ask questions, and they -- yeah. >> professor vogel. i imagine it'll where ten or twenty years before another buying to if i about deng xiaoping. when that book is written what would you like it to see that your book was not able to cover glpg. that's a great question. when i was writing, i was afraid somebody else might beat me to it. there is nobody else that has

done anything comparable. it would take a few years to get anything comparable. i had a lot of good luck. some is which having some clines students here. i interviewed a lot of people that ordinary people could not interview. when i hosted 1998, i was able to interview him about deng xiaoping. and i don't know of anybody else that has interviewed him. one source of information, of course, is going to come out. that is a lot of stories of the meetings. and a lot of the rich details of the discussions and, i think, records may come out. give a much richer picture of the decision-making process. because deng did not keep notes. it's tough join a biographer of deng. but i think -- what i would like to see, you know, i may not be around to see

in ten-twenty years. i hope they would make full use of records that give a richer picture of the actual decision-making process in consideration of what happened. i can sort of guess, but i couldn't nail down. >> thank you. >> you've spent gave us a very rich picture of the factors that contributed to the discussion. i know, you don't have a lot of time, aside from june th what were some of the setbacks or challenges that he faced during his long career? >> guest: well, three times in he was purged. the first time was in the period. he been region county. and he was throne out of that job. and join six months it wasn't

clear if he would survive. one of the people, who had been with him in france, who was head of the presidential party committee, brought him to take charge of propaganda. the second time, of course, he was purged was in 1966 by mao himself. beginning of the cultural revolution as one of the two leaders and authority. the third time was the end of 1975 early' 75 when had mao purged him join fear he would not follow his path to continue the revolution and to continue respect join what mao had done. :

he wanted to finish that off before he retired. and so he released all kinds of prices at the time they were replaced in pressure. so that made inflation go sky high and that's part of the reasons so many people in beijing were no longer in the zs take about deng as they had been before. >> professor, thank you very much for presenting this history

to american people. i'm 40 years old. and from beijing and this is not only the history of his person. it's also the history of a lot of people of my generation. i grew up with his policies and i think this is great to that more american people to note that her about what it did in fact in china, but not rather steep or official events, recordings from the newspaper errs. so this is my first book already. i usually get them as gift to american or other people or those who are willing to know better about chinese history touring the past 30 years. so my very question will be very

simple. this is a history for the future and for the near future, what is your point of view -- i mean, what is your point of view of the china's rise and the american relative decline? will they be punished or will they be anna means? >> i think there'll be a lot of tension between china and the united states. as kissinger pointed out in his will, you know, for a president, all of them felt we must be engaged with china and must work with china. so even though there is a lot of tension and competition, in the end i think it is in the theater's interest, the leaders of both countries recognize that it is in their interest to contain the pressures for competition particularly for

distressed. think the most critical single problem we now refer to as his term strategic distress. it is we are not sure of chinese military intentions and they are not sure about american. we hear the chinese leaders say they want a peaceful rise, but then in the south china sea, there's many patrol boats that are coming in conflict with the patrol boats from other countries. so i think it is going to take up a lot of determination on the part of a lot of theaters and much more open discussion of military goals and much more transparency in military preparedness on both sides in order to achieve the kind of cooperation and peaceful future that we all want.

>> china faces a lot of challenges today, not just internationally. many of them challenges created by the policies that have been implemented were rising up issues that occurred on his watch. china faces a looming demographic challenge, both in terms of declining numbers of working age people and claiming a terrible sex ratio imbalance as a result of the one child policy. extraordinary environmental challenges striven apart by the expansion of the economy. political challenges striven apart by creation of the middle class, which is demanding new rights in the one. deng has gone to meet marx, but if he were still on the scene, what would he think were the biggest challenges facing china and what would he be doing about them? >> i think that is a brilliant summation of the issues they are

facing. i think if deng were still alive today, the biggest issue he would encompass corruption because deng oversight of political soup port as very key to power. it was one of the most fundamental things he was concerned with. with so much corruption, there's a danger that people will no longer support the communist party. when he was second down in 1992, he said, you know, we must use to face. we must grab reform with one fast and we must grab illegal behavior and corruption with the other face. and i think he is of course much stronger and had a stronger base of power than the leaders to now a day. but if he were alive, he would certainly attack it very vigorously. in terms of openness and i think also he would work very hard to deal with that strategic distress at the outset world. he felt the soviet union made a terrible error by having and me spending so much on the military

and exhausting the nation of trying to maintain the small military when they didn't build up their own country. he was slowed on the growth of the military and worked with better relations with all major powers, including japan especially. but i think you would also want to make sure that they didn't spend so much on the military. >> thank you, ezra vogel. [applause] >> would like to hear from you. tweet s. your feet back twitter.com/booktv.

ev >> richard brookhiser, when i talk about the founding fathers come with the era and the events we talk about? >> guest: we talk about the american revolution and the writing of the constitution. and those are the two key cla events. and everybody who played a major role in this offense can claimhr to be a founding father.he

now obviously the older ones haa careers before the american aew revolution, the appellants had careers that went on quite a few andrs after the signing of thees constitution. the guys were talking about. >> host: who are the older ones and the younger ones? >> guest: benjamin franklin in 17 hundred six as cotton mather. that is how old he is and he dies in 1790. andhe he sends both the declaration of independence and thee last t constitution. the last two w guys james madis. he is born in 1751 and then he8. dies in 1836, 85 years old. so he has seen the fight over missouri being in a bid to the union. he sees the nullification crisi crisis. i but he is the last one. aronberg dies after he does, but that's sort of the other side. >> host: in 2006, you wrote,

what would the founders do w. w. s. d.he f in that book, you write thetion founders inviters questions now because they invited discussion when they live. they were argumentative, expansive know what else hanging their ideas out to dry in public speeches and a journalist on. up >> guest: well, that's right.'rr they set up a republican arend very proud of doing that. this is unique virtually unique in the world. you know, there's his cantons, hollins had been a kind of a ubes of a republic but that was publice form of government, and compared to all the competitors, month no, okays and whatnot, it's open. it's based on popular rule and, yes, of course, the franchise was restricted but still there is a franchise. so, voters, the electorate, has

to be appealed to, has to be brought long and instructed, and they do this constantly. a lot of them are journalists. they write for the newspapers. some of them are professional journalists, alexander hamilton founds a newspaper that is still going on, the new york post. he founded it. was the first publisher. benjamin franklin was a great publisher, sam adam was a publisher. it's hard to think of founders who didn't write journalism. george washington didn't. but that is very rare. even someone like james madison who didn't like or was great at it, he screwed himself up and wrote 29 federalist papers which were op-ed pieces in newspapers. so these guys, these men, know that they have to put themselves

out there for the american public, which is their con constitute tune si. >> host: no it alls. >> guest: well, know it alls. they were well educated. it's a little country. the colleges we have -- he have a handful of colleges. they're tiny. harvard or kings college, which becomes columbia, or yale or princeton, they have a few dozen students. unlike the thousands that they have today. but most of these men were college graduates. those who weren't made sure they read all their lives. they felt they had to be up on both the news of the day and the political theory of the day. they all knew their -- if you

listen to their debates you would have thought that moscue the celebrate. and the knew their english history, their recent english history and they're ancient history. the history of the classical world. the history of rome and greece. the didn't always admire what they read. in hamilton and the federalist papers he says the history of the little greek city states is disgusting because they all -- they go through cycles of tyranny and chaos and whatnot and that's what he hopes america can avoid. but that's a negative example. so you have to know the negative examples as well. >> host: you say -- tell me if i'm paraphrasing this wong -- our founding fathers were less well-traveled, perhaps even less sophisticated, than high school seniors today or veterans from iraq and afghanistan.

>> guest: well, sure. it's harder to get around the world. and a crossing of the atlantic ocean takes 20 davis -- days if you're lucky. it can take 80 days of you fall in iceberg and storms. john adams crosses the atlantic and the ship is struck by lightning and everybody has to pump until they make landful. the passengers have to take turns because the ship is filling with heart. so it is hard, it is hard to get around. it's hard to get around the united states. to go from new york city to albany, new york, if you took a hours, that would take you three days, on our own horse or a coach. if you took a boat up the hudson, that would take three days if the wind was rig