specker on the split old guard members and those supported by the tea party. sunday at 8:00 p.m. book tv every weekend on c-span 2. next on book tv, former senator arlen specter of pennsylvania talks about the political career about split between old guard members of the former party, and members supported by the tea party. senator specter is in conversation with mike castle former delaware governor and u.s. representative for a little under an hour. :

and mike castle join me. and characterized that mike and i -- too easy to come by. too easy to come by that kind of seniority. this book "life among the cannibals" was designed to come out in the midst of this election season to acquaint the american people with why washington is what it is today and that is gridlock and

dysfunctional so that if the electorate is properly motivated, now is the time to do something about it, and the title with the cannibals is by deliberation for motivation and accuracy. because that is what is happening. really cannibals devouring senators and representatives. i will be very specific. starting with bob bennett, senator from utah for 18 years, 93% conservative rating, wasn't pure enough to be nominated by

the republican party in 2010 for one vote. mike castle in delaware was defeated in a republican primary by a tea party candidate who had to fend for herself on television has not be a witch. the same applies on the democratic side where a top notch senator like joe lieberman couldn't win a democratic primary. so what has evolved is a great worry on the part of members of congress that if one vote is cast it causes the party in a primary where there is a very low turnout, that is the end of

a political career. there were very few who were prepared to put their political careers on the line for a vote notwithstanding what the public perceives. this book goes into great detail about my approach to being in public service and the votes that i cast and the one critical vote which was the end of association between the republican party and me, that ronald reagan best put it when he said years ago when he was a democrat did you know that ronald reagan was a democrat? he was. as ronald reagan put it he didn't leave the democratic party. the democratic party left him.

but let me assure you the republican party in 1980 when i was elected to the senate was a vastly different republican party than it was in the 20 first century. when the stimulus vote came up, i was convinced that if we did not have an infusion of funding that we would be heading for in 1930 style depression and a few months earlier when george w. bush was the president, he came up with a $700 billion package to assess the banking industry and the automotive industry.

$700 billion was a twin brother to what president obama came up with a few months later with $870 billion stimulus package. house of representatives voted down the bush program and the stock market dropped 700 points at the end of september of 2008. the republican caucus and the senate was organized and vice president cheney came to talk to us. that wild ride liberal, kennedy said a few don't pass this package they are going to turn george w. bush into a modern herbert hoover. a majority of republicans voted including bob bennett. that was the end of bob

bennett's career. when president obama was elected shortly thereafter and came up as his first legislative initiative to have a stimulus package suddenly the republican caucus was out. jim dean lind --demint was heard to say we're going to turn this into obama's waterloo. the senate republican leader -- the republican senate agenda is to defeat obama. this was three years and 11 months before the 2012 election. and nobody in the republican caucus except for olympia snowe, susan collins and arlen specter

would talk to the democrats about the bill. i had been a child during the 1930 depression and i didn't want to see another depression. my father who was a russian immigrant in 1930 found -- make it hard -- we live in wichita and my father packed up the family and headed east to philadelphia where we had a sister in depressions. that is what families do. they move in with one another to survive. those were really tough times and i had been there and it was

plain that the vote was going to be highly precarious and it turned out to be just that. that single vote out of 10,000 turned out to be the problem which i had. the situation where for example senator collins and senator snowe would not cross the line. we had a case called citizens united which is pretty well known. the supreme court of the united states decided that corporations and unions can make unlimited financial contributions. actually unlimited anonymous expenditures independent expenditures so-called. they left a narrow opening.

congress could legislate or require disclosure so that at least you would know who was putting up the money and one of the -- for newt gingrich, for $10 million you at least know who is picking up the money. i think this overpaid for south carolina but that was his choice. 59 senators on one side of the aisle, myself included, voted for cloture. not one republican senator would stand up to provide the 60th vote. collins and snowe fell happened to arlen specter and they knew why there. you see the emergence of the giant super pacs, anonymous contributions. where is it coming from? where is the chamber of commerce

getting that money? nobody knows. the law doesn't require disclosure. that sort of paints the picture as to how a gun shot -- how gun shy people are about crossing the party line and putting their political careers on the line. you have seen the e emergence of the tea party. you have seen what has happened in the town meetings. right here in convention hall, early august of 2009 secretary of health and human services kathleen sins delius --sebelius came to talk about the affordable health care plan which was before the supreme court and the tea party was out

in force. had we been in this room having this discussion we wouldn't have been able to hear one another talk there was so much noise in the adjoining room. a few days later i started my town meetings. every year in august when i was in the senate i would make it a point to visit every county and usually in lebanon i threw a to 90 people. on this day, 1200. in a relatively famous town meeting where they had the replay again and again of the rambunctious crowd highlighted by one fellow who charged up, came within a few inches by nose with his fist waving. he made the front page of the

new york times the next day. so that i. [laughter] he was the star of the show. he became a major person, television personality. but the country was up in arms. i think president obama made a mistake in unloading too much too soon. he had from graham's for cats and trade and health care. was estimated at one point it would be $6 trillion. almost a trillion dollars on stimulus. more than a trillion until it was pared down just slightly to $878 billion. where do we go from here? my book provides an idea for the

future. the idea centralizes around the experience of senator lee summer county --lisa murkowski who was supposed by tea party candidate led by senator dema, the tea partyint cannibalize lisa and she came back in an extraordinary move to run a right in the campaign. the uno how hard it is to right in murkowski? if you spell of with a why instead of that i your ballot is thrown out. if you miss the lead is thrown out. but she won. i think senator murkowski's

experience shows -- informs the public and motivate the public power is there but has to be exercised. the know how often you hear one vote doesn't count. but that is replicated millions of times and the nonvoters control the process and the extremists on each side control the elections and if you want to win the iowa primary you have to stay up until the middle of the night. a couple of final note. the book has some lighter sides

to it. i tell about an experience with senator kennedy in the senate gym. i was relaxing in the hot tub when they, the world full. great experience. in comes senator ted kennedy. a fellow worked with very closely for a lot of years on civil-rights, hate crime legislation. not this closely. and there is teddy, 285 pounds in his birthday suit and the tape and he comes to the edge of the hot tub like a fire. plop! all 285 pounds. you know the old saying rising tide lifts all boats. my head near hit the ceiling.

just one story of a different line attracted a lot of attention. when john mccain and sarah palin came to campaign in neighboring delaware county i was asked to introduce them before we went on stage. john mccain said give me some political advice on what to do in swink territory with independent voters. so john and sarah palin and i went to a little conference table with very close borders and i started to give him some advice on embryonic stem cells. i knew sarah palin was against embryonic stem cell research but she didn't say anything and

intelligent. because she didn't say anything. but the relative part was sitting in these close quarters. you know the length of sarah's skirts. almost everybody does. and when you sit down the spirits don't go down. she is a very beautiful woman. very sensual. i wrote this portion very discreetly. joan approved of it. it has attracted more attention than my ideas on how to solve the nuclear issue with iran.

i am delighted to be joined by mike castle because mike castle is a bloated warrior like arlen specter. mike castle served with great distinction in delaware as lieutenant governor and then as governor. five terms in the house of representatives. taking tough positions inside tough party apparatus. when he was in his caucus as i in the republican caucus on the senate side, really rough going. delaware america lost a great public servant and from the point of view of the republican party the party lost a st..

mike was a shoe in to win that seat. joe biden had given it up to become vice president and his son was in line to run but when the under biden booked at mike castle and said not me. mike castle is too tough with his record and stature in delaware, a sure-fire bet. tea party candidate emerged. i don't know which. very few people voted. she won and the seat changed hands. i am really pleased to share the podium, the platform with representative mike castle and look forward to his comment.

>> thank you for your kind comments. it is a whole different experience. i just want to ask some questions related to things you and i have been involved in. you are self-described as moderate and a lot of republicans for a long time and clearly there has been complete taking up part of moderate wings of the democrats and republicans in congress of the united states may differ state by state but in the congress is that way but i am trying to determine the cause of it because when they take polls the self description by most people is they are conservative moderate or whatever they may be or a majority of people are close to it versus any of the description of being an extremist or hard line. the party managed to separate that because they are more extreme if you will in terms of

their views of being progressive, liberal or conservative. it becomes very difficult to get people elected who are in the middle. i am going to determine the cause of this. part of his political parties who have the ability to take some of the legislation you mentioned and destroy a person's voting record on that basis but part of it is the media. there has been a big change in the media in the last 10 or 15 years in this country in that it has become a lot more polarized. i'm not just talking about fox news. and ms nbc and others if you will which tends to offset the conservative side of this and a lot of political pundits do a lot of writing on an ideological basis in this country tend to be the ones who are also on the

air. that has been divisive that is part of the demise of the moderate wing. not a lot of moderate answers to that. i only had a chance to skim the book but i would be curious about your view to the media's role in terms of this sort of changing of the political balance in this country away from moderates. >> you put your finger on the critical aspects. it is talk radio and talk television which whips the fringes into activity. i think the money is at the hands of those who are willing to finance people on the outside. the cote brothers, the wealthy who have more extreme positions.

but i think ultimately the moderates lose because so few people come out and the people who come out are those who are most interested or the zealots who are really the enthusiasts to come out. the general population has the attitude that my vote won't make any difference. that is the principal cause. >> let me ask your question on all of our minds which is what is happening in the republican presidential primaries which are going on for some period of time. you have been in both political parties a pretty good sense of this but what are your thoughts about that not so much in terms of who the nominee may be? i assume it will be mitt romney but we don't know for sure but it seems that way. in terms of the negativity these

wealthy individuals, citizens united has allowed this to occur in this country but how is this going to play out with the public? to rebound, or damage being done in terms of negative advertising. so prevailing that -- next to impossible for the republican candidate to step back from that. >> i believe romney has a lot of ground to make a. is an open question whether he can do it. the republican primary has caused romney to move so far to the right he is off the board. you have ten candidates in new

hampshire, you agree to $1 in taxes or $10 in cuts and anybody in the civilized world, maybe that excludes those candidates, would say i give you $1 in taxes for $10 in cubs but not one hand went up. not anybody. it was a well-kept secret but i ran for the republican nomination in 1996. there were nine people. how many of you promised to abolish the department of education? hands sprang up instantaneously. you can't abolish the department of education. just can't do it.

here you have herman cain and michele bachman, one after another pushing romney so far to the right and senator santorum, covering all the counties played right into his strength with the evangelical right but as soon as the people of america found out about him like the people of pennsylvania, there he went. and romney has changed positions so many times, romney has changed positions more often than a pornographic movie queen. and who am i going to support in

november? i say i am not senator arlen specter any more. i am a citizen arlen specter and i'm not happy with president obama frankly. this policy in afghanistan is absurd. i spoke out on the senate floor against 30,000 additional troops. we have no fight with the taliban. no al qaeda there. i was part of a delegation that visited hamid karzai. he is not someone you can do business with. you have the tax cuts, obama extended it. i spoke out against it. should never have extended the tax cut for the rich in my opinion. then you have the commission chaired by alan simpson on the deficit or national debt. doesn't pay attention. how about romney? what will we know? how will it be reset?

the primary process, republican nominee so far to the right he is going to have to make a sharp you turn to the personal a persuasive one. >> let me ask you a double barrelled question. it is about health care. a lawyer of some renown. i would be curious what you think the supreme court made do with respect to health care. in addition to that i would be curious if you have any thoughts about what is going to happen down the road with health care. that is dependent on the election of the president and the house and the senate and house and the senate, the double barrel part of this is what are your thoughts about where are they going to go in terms of republican house in congress and the democratic senate which is tenuous in terms of numbers and

could turn over in this election. what influence will that have even if obama is reelected on what the future of health care is going to be? >> my sense is the supreme court following the conventional wisdom will strike down the affordable health care act. my own legal judgment is it is constitutional under congressional authority under article 1 of the commerce clause the way it has been interpreted. there have been many programs. social security and medicare and medicaid and others which serve as precedents. but you have a very ideological core. this is essentially the court that elected george bush overbore 5-4 and the ideological -- came down with citizens

united. kennedy is a swing votes. i studied kennedy closely sins i participated in his confirmation in 1988. kennedy has a pension for the name kennedy core. the arguments on the mandate he said a couple things. one was a mandate certainly goes far toward being an incursion on liberty, suggesting he strike it down. later in the argument he left himself some wiggle room saying if people get their health care at the emergency room it shifts the burden to everybody else so you can't be sure. if they strike it down i think it is going to be a very

confused situation. there are some things that have gone into effect. some parts of exchanges for example covering children and their parents's policies. but i don't think you can keep the elimination of preexisting conditions. i don't think you can tell the insurance companies to take everybody if you don't have a mandate. what will congress do? i don't think congress will agree to anything. nothing. you have a supreme court decision, if they strike it down it will be an enormous number of unanswered questions to be litigated in district courts and courts of appeals which will take years.

meanwhile people are sick. it will be really terrible situation for the country. the supreme court of the united states has so far gone on ideology. toledo --alito testified about congressional intent -- disregarded 100 years of precedent in citizens united. one thing that hasn't been emphasized enough but maybe will be in this campaign but rovers' is wade is in jeopardy. ladies and gentlemen in c-spanland, rovers as wade is in jeopardy. when you have a 100 year precedent that corporations and unions can't make political expenditures than you have a 1990 case called boston where the supreme court upholds

limitations and then congress writes mccain feingold, enacted into law and the supreme court upholds it in 2003 and seven years later you come along and with the flick of a pen and declare it unconstitutional. there is no precedent that is safe. if ideologically the court disagrees with it. that is a real problem. >> ok, folks. it is your turn. there's a microphone here. get in line and come to the microphone. anybody else who would like to -- get in line and go through this as rapidly as possible. as many questions as we can. keep your questions as brief as you can and the senator will give brief answers. >> i see they have books in their hands.

[talking over each other] >> introduce yourself. >> i am a volunteer here. my question is i am a member of norway. i have been to washington four times including two weeks ago before senator lieberman and the government and the government affairs committee where we have a bill before congress saying no budget know pay. i don't know if you are familiar with that but i wonder what you think of no labels and more importantly, does this country need a third party? could we form a third party with people like you or people who have been struck out of office by extremists and somehow coalesce to have a moderate middle? the majority taking hold of the country again? >> i'm familiar with no labels. the know if the senator is or not. i went to new york when they first announced that kind of thing. i am familiar with what you referenced.

they don't pass a budget in congress members of congress won't get paid which is publicly very popular although i am not sure if it is a good way to be perceived. having said that, they did pass budget and appropriations which they don't do any more. no labels is not a political party. it is a movement to say you shouldn't approach politics with labels. you shouldn't be too republican or democrat too extreme. you should be able to work together to get things done. it is more a movement in that direction the people with political background involved with it, it is actually a very good movement which will do positive things in this country. it has raised considerable amount of money. people take great deal of interest in it. there is a third -- don't want to call it a political party but a movement by another group who have actually -- almost every

state they try to -- in all 50 states. when you vote for the president this year you can do one of several things. you can vote for the democratic candidate or the republican candidate or the right candidate of this other particular group who is nominated by some sort of internet nominating process. the president and vice president are opposite political parties so if you want to run for president that may be your moment. i don't know. that is interesting too. there is movement that something is a little different in this country and no labels is a part of that. at least talking to each other and getting things done to make sense of it. >> i think your idea of know budget know pay is a good idea. i just don't know how you get congress to pass that. may be the ones who will get no

pay. if you put that on a referendum you have a pretty good shot at it. [inaudible] >> we had senator heller running for reelection in nevada and did his own polling and note labels have done polling. only 85% to 90% of the people in favor of know budget know day. senator lieberman said you won't be surprised to learn that the same polling figures don't take place -- somehow if you get through the same thing as the american people something can happen. >> try a referendum. >> i am proud to work in the programs for -- constitution center. when do you see, the in our congress in 2013? in my lifetime?

in my middle age? children's lifetime? in my grandchildren's life time? thank you. >> i am hopeful the day after the 2012 election. if you throw enough of the rascals out and make the incumbents more worried about losing their seats if they don't know the public interest instead of to preserve their offices you have a chance to see it. depends on when we the people raise enough help. it is all set forth in the book. [laughter] >> i'm getting worried about libel and slander. cannibals and rascals, got to be careful what we say. >> i am karen gross, writer and editor at the constitution center and a question for both

of you. part of the problem with politics is i don't find their our candidates that i like or want to vote for and two longtime political leaders what words of inspiration would you have for people who might want to run for office? i find a lot of young people in particular feel disillusioned and don't know where to start especially now with politics the way it is. what words of inspiration for people who want to go into politics work see leaders today and what advice would you give them at this point? especially women. there is not a lot in office. >> there are increasing number of women and there will be more. there are more women attending college than men. and leaders in the private-sector who will eventually spring into the public sector. it is important to understand the significance of representing people but also the enjoyment of it. i was in government for a long

time. i didn't like the way it ended but i enjoy the experience tremendously. i enjoy helping people. my staff enjoys helping people. you don't think about that much but you get those phone calls and social security, they are able to help them. that is a feeling you don't get in most of the private sector type decisions that are out there. it is very rewarding. i believe that anyone can do it. i started in the state house of representatives. i was 26 years old in wilmington, delaware. very democratic district. i would knock on doors and talk to people and they were happy to see somebody. not many people did anything like that. they supported -- able to get elected. that was the springboard to what i did later on. young people can do it. i would never underestimate a good enthusiastic young person with good ideas in terms of their ability to do it.

political parties are very receptive to young people doing this. they're looking for candidates in areas where there particular party is not doing well. that person could go out and to you get the job done and as far as getting elected. it is a very rewarding career. so many people tell me i would never do what you do or i would just -- couldn't imagine undertaking that or whatever. but they can and you could. anyone can and the opportunities are there. i would hope our good young people whether they are well-educated or not, sometimes people are not well educated or pragmatic and reasonable thinking you can contribute a lot to the public discourse that runs this country and those are the people we need to get involved. it can't just be those of us who are older like we are but those young people are the future of

america. we should not discourage that. my hopes are both parties get more good young people involved. >> your motivation around the kitchen table and crazy specter is sitting here and -- tracy specter became the chairman in lower marion county among republicans. she and i are trying to have enough talk around the kitchen table to produce another senator or president out of the specter family. i got my motivation at the kitchen table for my father. he lived in russia in 1911. he was 18 and the czar wanted to send him to siberia. these are wanted to send all the young jewish troublemakers to

siberia to avoid a revolution. he want to go to kansas instead. it was a close call. he emphasized the importance of government. how important it was in our lives. that motivated me. i became a democratic committeeman downtown here and became an assistant d.a.. didn't have any money, didn't have any powerful friends. was asked to be one of the young lawyers on the war commission staff. won an upset victory for d a and three primaries to win a republican primary. and like mike castle says if you work at it. that motivated me. >> my name is bob mccarthy. i'm a volunteer.

you mentioned an idealized court. do you feel appointments are relevant for supreme court justices, and setting limits? say terms of eight or ten years? >> it is worth considering. i wouldn't put eight or ten years but you might have a cutoff. what we really have to change the confirmation process. i invite you to come to washington. a 25 your reference -- retrospective and where we go on the confirmation process. i don't want to talk about it today because that is my next book. i want david to invite me back. >> i will give you an idea. every now and then it goes in my

mind. i am not advocating this but maybe members of the house of representatives should be elected for four years instead of two years. that business of running every two years makes some extraordinarily sensitive to fund-raising, the political environment and unwillingness to be more open-minded about what they are doing. maybe that involves a cap on how often you could run. this fund-raising business is a tremendous problem not just because it influences things but the time it takes, time away from the work you are supposed to be doing in terms of representing the people in congress and that rapid turnover which we see in the house and senate, is pretty dramatic. it is very often somebody beats somebody else in a close election and the opponents as i will run again next time and the race is still on.

it never really goes away. something to be thinking about in terms of where the country would go. good luck making that change. >> i am retired school administrator. i'm a volunteer at the national constitution center. i want to say first of all how much i appreciate you coming here and sharing your book with us. it is an honor to be in the same room with both of you. i look around and think about things that happened in philadelphia, the port authority nonsense going on with people who are being less than honest and less than moral and i start to remember when i look education, in education it seems we have so much deemphasized, 6

and social studies in favor of passing tests in math and reading and to me it seems that has a correlation to lack of a moral compass. so many people in congress, so many people in the public realm serving as supposedly servants of the public. i wonder what you think. either or both of you. the change education would certainly be a big help. no doubt the schools do not

emphasize government. don't do much to inform students what goes on in washington d.c.. sandra day o'connor who spoke at this podium at the constitution center decries the fact that students don't know anything about government in washington. that is a first step. the moral compass is a significant factor on education. so much of it comes back to the kitchen table. >> a lot of the blame is placed on no child left behind which is the existing law with respect to elementary and secondary education which is demanding of the students being able to pass tests and being able to read, right and as a result of this being ignored. that is a little bit faulty.

i have been in every school in my state. small state. i have seen the good principles and seen them put together schedules and figure out how to work others into it and even when you are dealing with certain aspects of learning -- i agree with you. there should be more of that. there should be more basic economic education too. may prevent problems with foreclosures and excess of student loans and things going on. i think the things that need to be done, this race to the top business is perhaps the next iteration of no child left behind or perhaps try to address some of those issues but i believe the educator's themselves need to look carefully at how they can manage it. education is ultimately a local

decision and that is what we need to keep in mind so the federal government will put some money into. the bottom line is local educators make the decisions but your basic premise is correct. how we get there i am not certain. i think i am being given the signal that we are done. senator, we will give you 30 seconds to sell your book. >> the end of that question is i would encourage high school students to go out for debate. go out for debate. it acquaint you with substantive issues in the public arena and teaches you research analysis and public speaking. those are key ingredients to getting from place in politics. >> very good. let me thank the senator. let me thank you for participating. he is going to be here.

[applause] if you want to purchase the book, he will be happy to sign it or whatever it may be. >> the forget "life among the cannibals" 11. this book was written to try to influence what happens in america. i don't care about the premiums for the royalties but i do care about people understanding how tough and ambitious it is behind-the-scenes in washington and how the partisanship has destroyed the public interest and there is an answer. we are here in the constitution center and the big letters across the front of a constitution center don't mention cannibals but mention we the people. and we the people can eat and devour the cannibals. read the book. [applause]

>> thank you. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> is there a nonfiction offer or both you would like to see featured on booktv? send us an e-mail at booktv@c-span.org or please us at twitter.com/booktv. >> 16. sweeping the youth of america. >> just sign please. >> nice to meet you, young lady. hello. >> friends in seattle. >> nice to meet you. we love that. >> you wrote a new book. [talking over each other] >> by the book. when can we do that? >> you have your e-mail on this?

ya mean in person? >> that would be [talking over each other] >> well. i am miking of the sound of that. >> really interesting because europe and france have two presidents. >> you read this book. france is all over it. we are going to try to do an interview. [talking over each other] >> can you call me? >> okay. >> i am just getting off [talking over each other] >> thank you. >> could i be the same as you? >> to get that -- >> the collections. >> oh! sir you are not in hiding. >> not any more.

i am still doing volumes. >> what happened to that cartoonist? the witness protection program? >> could i be the same -- >> okay. >> thank you very much. hello. >> nice to meet you. >> viewing college? >> university of michigan. >> that is where i went to law school. beautiful up there. >> take a picture with me real quick. >> you have to wait. we will take pictures at the end. we have to get through these. i know. you know what? i am going to walk through that line. that is the only way to do it now. is that ok? ask them to hold their books out. >> do you want these? >> yes. would you hold these? for later. i am going to walk through the

line. hold your books open to the page. i have to go in five minute. take my picture. [inaudible conversations] >> thank you. it is upside-down. thank you. >> you are going to have to explain to everyone why my handwriting is messy. [inaudible] >> north carolina. >> how about that? >> thank you. >> love that. title page. >> thank you so much.

>> a democrat. i am from michigan. >> how can you be a democrat from michigan? >> i have no idea. >> nice to meet you. sorry we are rushed. [inaudible conversations] >> we are going to try to come back later today. i am not sure when. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> a lot of people. >> you are a great american. [inaudible conversations] >> thank you. you guys are great. all girls are pretty. it is unbelievable. title page. >> miss coulter, winding down the time. >> going to tv. that is why we have to leave.

hello. thank you. that is a great picture. all the hot checks you meet. you want to, everyone? [inaudible conversations] >> thank you very much. thank you, ann. >> thank you. oh good! nice to meet you. hello. >> went to school for four years. good to meet you. >> what are you doing? >> university of florida. good for you. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. okay. [inaudible conversations] >> thank you. >> college campuses. >> that is why you need my book.

>> i want a picture real quick. thank you so much. thank you. >> we have time for pictures? we have two minutes. i don't know how you want to do this. >> over here. [inaudible conversations] >> are you almost ready? come on, are you ready? [inaudible conversations]