weapons if there not concealed. when we wrote that law and we didn't mean black as with other cuts in the race. they quickly moved to change the laws. the panthers responded by storming the hearing in sacramento. seeing the panthers storm the legislature. they have guns and leather coats. they are crazy. ..

[laughter] >> because your kids you want to be with of the roughest and the toughest. next to program from our archives. brad present research on the titanic disaster to better comprehend why the ship sunk so quickly. with the assistance of deep sea divers and shipwreck investigators jongh and richie kolevar contended that the titanic falls were born during the construction of the shift. a taxing 100 years ago on april april 15th, 1912. >> [inaudible]

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[inaudible] and try to figure out what are we going to do. we are not the kind of guy is that correct. we had a lot invested in this coming and we put together a new plan, and we put together a plan was going to require a little bit of fluff and if nothing else, we are very lucky. on the last dive to the titanic before the hurricane chased us off the site we came across some wreckage, two pieces of the titanic double bottom haul come

exactly what our architecture engineers wanted to look at. the two pieces comprised about 70 linear feet of the bottom, complete from the part in putting. as one of the naval architects said, the steel doesn't fly, doesn't protect reputations, doesn't have private agendas, and it tells the story. >> what exactly is that story, what did the huge missing pieces of the titanic tell us? >> at the time, john and i are not diverse, we know how to search out on the bottom the difference between different parts of the ship, but the

individual components, they were going to tell a story that was beyond our ability. we are not metallurgists, we are not naval architects or engineers so what we did is document the edges of the pieces carefully so that we could bring that evidence to the experts and they could look at it and tell a story, and the story starts to unfold not necessarily to and a half miles down while we are in the mirror, but months later in the laboratories and the drafts where they are drawing these pictures out of the pieces and where they fit into the hall of titanic and they start to tell a timeline and they start to tell us things about that might that don't exactly lined up with what we have come to know about the story of titanic. most of us have seen gene cameron's wonderful film coming and we are all drawn to that

horrible moment when the two main characters are holding on to the back of this huge ship as the stern readers out of the water and then breaks and half and then titanic sinks. that's pretty much what i felt was the story of titanic when i got into that, but the steel what we found says that simply didn't happen. the steel says the ship broke apart at a very gentle ingalls. nothing like 45 degrees. more like 11 degrees. >> what is the difference that might while 1500 people stayed on board the titanic, it didn't get into lifeboats, the life boats pulled away with 500 d.c. its. people made decisions that might as the ship slowly sank into the water, july stay here on board

the titanic and wait for the rescue ships or do i get into the lifeboats? when you were on a ship that is only bending at 11 degrees it seems like you've got a long time to go before it is going to break apart or sink to read as a matter of fact the idea of the ship breaking apart was never in their mind, but that is exactly what happened. while the ship was flooding she started to break apart. if we look at it, most people have understood the story of titanic to be that titanic set sail on her maiden voyage and then on a clear call might struck an iceberg, sync and broke apart. the pieces of steel john and i documented say that titanic struck an iceberg then broke apart and sank, and incredibly different experience of people that might. also, the way that of the holbrook apart means that the timeline is remarkably different. instead of it being about a half

an hour it's about five minutes. so in five minutes period, people went from listening to the band, having a drink by the bar and five minutes being in the cold north atlantic. when we started to hear these stories, one of the questions that came back to john and i was titanic a week ship so we commissioned the engineers to look at the design and commission also exploding study, something that had never been done before where the computerized program was generated to allow water into the many compartments of the titanic and see what stresses it could take. we wanted to prove something the was nearly impossible for the builders because they didn't have the technology but we have the technology, and we want to find out was indeed titanic a week shut. at the same time we wanted to get to know who the people were that built the ship. what were some of the concerns

they had? and in our research we found out there would be even more amazing that in the days that followed the titanic disaster there were other people but were concerned. there were other people were worried that they built a week ship. >> we are giving away all the secrets before leggett to talk. >> about two and a half years ago i was working my way through a biography of the jacques cousteau and i got a call from a fellow that said they've got this incredible story and i said what's the story about and they said titanic and i said o.k. i'm going now. i checked into it and i found out that only more words had been written about jesus and the civil war than had been written about titanic and i wasn't on the mood to get on apply all and i said who are these guys? there's a great book about a submarine found off the coast of new jersey and its called shadow diverse. the second to the last thing i want to do is write son of

shadow divers that sounds like a career killer but i will talk to him. so they told me the story they told you now about finding these pieces on the bottom, and i thought i asked a number of questions right away what do the witnesses say and the witnesses said many of them said they had their back turned from the wreckage and they felt no way they turned back around and was gone. i remember this conversation we had and i met out and i met john and rich g. and found their story to be not only interesting but sincere. they really did seem to want to find out what the truth was about the last five meds of the ship. together what we agreed to do is try to gain some dimension on the historical characters who built the ship so that we could understand why they made decisions if in fact it was weak as the architect was alleging. so we went to gulf coast and spent a few weeks on a miserable february going to the people of

the public records of the archive looking at photographs and steel records and correspondence, meetings, and eventually the main characters began to emerge. the first was the man who actually built the ship he was the mayor of belfast and was the most honored irishman. to his cousin as was common in those days a giant of a ship builder control the largest shipbuilding operation in the british empire and he was the man behind the curtain in the story of the wizard of oz. he was controlling every one. at that time the traffic across the north atlantic was incredible. the immigration rush was on. about 2 million people a year were crossing the ocean and there was a jolt going on because the ship building is a

fragile industry and they built ships when business is good and they built too many and business was bad kind of like what just happened in our own economy they negotiate the deal with jpmorgan to sell the store line of which he was a shareholder and convince the president of the white star line that this was a good idea. this is the reprehensible character when they left titanic she was the one with a mustache and got into the last lifeboat leaving the ship. the son of the founder of light star, he was often mistaken for arrogance that he was very shy, he wasn't forceful, and he was able to control him. so, in 1907 they realized they had to build bigger ships to compete and they decided the commission three sister ships,

olympic, titanic and olympic will be built first than titanic and then britannic. they will be the largest man-made objects that ever moved in the history of the world. to design them, period, he gives the job to his nephew, his wife's nephew she gives the shom timmerman mant thomas and he's the architect that everybody remembers standing in front of the clock as it is flooding saying i'm sorry i didn't build e risch strong per ship but it turns out that he did design a very strong ship and when they showed the plans to the white star execs because the board of trade regulations require 1 inch steel from one in a quarter inch they diminish the size and the specifications for the lifeboats were reduced to 16 so originally the ship had been designed as a

much stronger ship with more lifeboats. the decision was all white stars. saving coal was the prime job of ray shipping company manager because it was everything depended on the coal strikes all the time so they make these decisions and we are finding all this out of the transport from people we met in belfast who were familiar with it, a lot more than we were we can to think of them as people whose entire lives were consumed by titanic. we found this is one last when this ship sailed they were not assured that it was strong enough to survive even normal conditions in the north atlantic because the sister olympic had been out there for six months and was already showing signs of cracking a so when the disaster occurred, these men went back and realized the ship might have broken up on the surface and i'm telling too many secrets, so i'm

going to stop their. >> we want to open up to questions. >> we will be happy to take questions. >> [inaudible] >> one of the things richie and i found most compelling with this story and the thing that makes it extraordinarily relative today and the thing that really kept us interested in bringing this to a resolution is the fact we felt like we had been conned as a carrot ship it was a fabrication and we also found out that this issue of deregulation there was a

headline in a magazine story a few days ago about this book and the headline was deregulation, sank titanic and really that's what happened because the board of trade regulations the or 15-years-old at that time are identical to the financial trading regulations that allowed what just happened. the new instruments, financial instruments and trade were able to flourish and basically bankrupt the system because there were not regulations in place to deal with something like that and that's what happened in the titanic as well. estimate the white star line had the biggest year ever, the year after titanic. >> also the story centers around us finding these huge pieces of steel at the heart of it isn't about metal, it's about morals. i think we have a question.

>> anybody pay the price over their investigations close enough to the sinking to say this was an issue? >> it is. there was enormous drawn immediately after the investigation. the senate committee heard that they had sent telegrams to new york who was going to get the crew and executives at plight starts out of new york the morning after they arrived. senator william smith jumped on a train with a committee that he and the president together and raced up to washington and conducted an inquiry into the determined was built according to the regulations and according to regulations and only the captain was to blame. the british decided the same thing. so the only person there was ever blamed was the captain. >> the other thing is when we

look at the witness testimony there was also a british inquiry after the american in query. the british inquiry was a little bit more polished and it seemed like a goal was to exonerate a british shipping for, many sort of responsibilities, but literally the witnesses called for testifying before the u.s. senate hearing in putting the highest-ranking officer of titanic to survive were caught lying. so, you know, it was clear from the beginning that there were lots of personal agendas. of course some of these people just innocent passengers there's a certain element of survivor's guilt. their recollection of events is going to center around this was a horrible tragedy, 1500 people

died. it's not my fault. i didn't do anything wrong. and of course for the members of the crew of the titanic, it's we didn't do anything wrong, the crew didn't do anything wrong, white star didn't do anything wrong, british shipping. >> in a sense it was a systemic failure. one person i interviewed early on was a former archivist said that the disaster was the result of cultural egomaniac which just as it needs even more now than it did then. you can kind of understand that you can begin to think you can do anything. >> how does your theories it with other titanic experts have other theories of what happened, and also robert.

second, have any of them spoken out about this and third, if there were 500 survivors, they couldn't have all had their back turned to the ship when it sank. were any of the survivors' recollections the same? why does every film and every story in every picture show the stern up and the dow down and no other scenario for the sinking and the breaking apart? >> i will start at the back. there were three different conflicting reports if you will. the first that the titanic sank in one piece and at that time contemporary reports have a very shallow angle. >> the was the conclusion reached by both increase but

survivors reported different things. those reports been tacked on an even keel and on a slight ankle and broken into pieces. when they found the wreck and 86 they proved the people that said it broke apart at the surface were telling the truth. one of them was a young man who the day after the sinking while on board the vessel actually drew the sketch that shows how it broke apart. he got it right. history didn't want to record it as being right and during the provision creates the justice stood up and found the witness by saying we will hear no more of this nonsense of the vessel breaking up. islamic for those of you that you're interested there are the searchable internet databases with every word of transcript from those to increase it was an absolute treasure you're terribly interested in that and

they are free. >> until the rest is found depending which one of those theories you wanted to go with, you could have a man with any of them. when we have the evidence of the shipwreck we still have a problem, being that the racket is at two and a half miles, it's secreted by the balanced section of 1 mile of degree and you can only see imagine if you are searching this room and you're searching with a pen light for a woman's during. that is what it's like looking for evidence, they're trying to put it together. there are hundreds of dives more people have been to the top of mount everest than have been through titanic. so you still have to start looking at it frantically. they can't disagree with what the steel tells us because just

like if you look at a plant, the location of the engine downstream of the crash site indicates the engine fell off and the plane crashed these are facts you just can't escape them so there are some things that cannot be argued with. >> jim cameron and his movie of titanic did a great job of detailing the conventional wisdom of the day when the film was made he took great pains to reflect what was known about titanic, and there's extraordinary detail in the film. the society of naval architects and marine engineers did a forensic study of both titanics and lusitania, and they confirmed from their work the ingalls was 45 degrees.

so you have a lot being put into this and say it's more like ten or 11 degrees and a maximum and here is our data to separate that from an independent engineering firm that did a computerized study of the rack. they really have to look at the study and the independent source of the material and that sort of thing. but the titaniacs command be concerned about titanic are interested in protecting their own position. >> they won't let the facts stand in the way of a good opinion. estimate given in the audience people get emotional -- >> 100 years later. >> it evokes a lot of emotion and not only the people like us that have been there but people who feel like they've been there

whether it's because you've read about it or because you've watched the film, 1500 people went into the water that might and it didn't matter to richest of the rich or the poorest of the poor, you died just as quickly and horribly and that affect us. >> we will take the gentleman back here and then we have a few more. >> in what way did ultimately the idea we commissioned? >> i wouldn't say it's just a matter of coal. you have to remember the builders of titanic were going from a construction standpoint nobody had ever been before. they were trying to build the biggest ship ever built using the same technology for building smaller ships. in that they were wrong. they went from a ship that was our original redesigned,

56,000 tons to 48,000. get rid of some of the structural steel, some of the lifeboats and you've got a much more efficient commercial vessel. >> and was legal. >> they still exceeded the regulations. >> in short they would burn less fuel therefore be more profitable but they took the design and the thin heuvel, and he's been a junior draftsman had nothing to say. is the key was under his uncles from. >> before that there's a gorgeous masterpiece called oceanic to root it was only 680 feet long, took him across

980 and if you look across sections of the plan they are almost identical and the goal of engineering isn't to build something that's so strong it will never break. you want to build something that's just strong enough. that's how they stand up. >> but there were other things, too like the size of the rudder and the ability to maneuver this 900 foot-long vessel. >> after the titanic sank you said that it was retrofitted for the reverse engineer. did the wreckage show olympic and britannic have another level of steel put in this? >> they found out before it sailed that it had cracked after a collision with a british warship but when they put her up they found out the front of the ship was cracking.

you look at the side-by-side photographs now and it was a great thing for us. you can see the side of titanic has more in the superstructure to stiffen it. the was the first thing they did and then when the olympic was back they added reinforcement and after the titanic sank the retrofitted with a complete double haul instead of a double bottom and then when they find the launch two years later to stop work on that. the redesigned it with a double haul and britannic as many of you probably know two years or four years after titanic they hit a mine off the greek mainland. >> twice as fast as titanic. >> as part of the investigation went for two reasons, the first was to figure out why she sink

faster and we wanted to document some of those design changes and in that we were successful. islamic another secret we are not going to tell you. >> first of all, thank you for finding those because this is an extraordinary thing. when the haul falls out of the bottom of a ship that's not a normal thing. this is a major catastrophe and what is interesting to me you described andrew watching during the trial and if you think going through the water has the pressure underneath it it's going up and down where as the pressure points replace issue broke so are you saying that because of the 1 inch as opposed to one and a quarter inch to the expansion and the weak point is what we can get for those pieces

to break apart and fallout means they were getting week as the ship was going along. estimate there were a couple of scientists that wrote a book recently and their conclusion -- they have a section that was salvaged from the site and we've examined the rivets and they were not as strong as they should have been. you can look at any number of little small elements of this story and think it's this or that or the of surfing and really it's everything put together. >> when we looked at the process all of the steel was punched. you probably know what they did. another reads every hall the was put in was done cold through the steel which causes enormous amounts of stress around in the opening and of course there were

thousands of openings and titanic. there were the points of weakness of them conspiring because this was essentially a skilled up version of the ocean genex simply far figures showed. >> to beg to wonder if thomas sanders had his way if the haul had been thicker and the credits had been larger what to the titanic have stayed afloat long enough to serve as a lifeboat is intended and if that had been the case would this have been the greatest rescue in history instead of the greatest tragedy. >> we have time for two more questions. >> thank you. with the lifeboats did they reduce the number and think that, you know, people would be able to get the boat in time to save people or a was just a fatalistic view if something happened there was nothing

anyone could do to save the people on board? >> titanic was suppose to act as her own life but. they're again a collision at sea was other white star liner. the republic was wind by the florida who stayed afloat for almost 46 hours serving her purpose, the compartmentalization was intended to allow its own lifeboat and the republic did sink. estimate of the republic was the first steam ship with a full-time wireless station on board and that meant when i got in trouble they could call for help and titanic had the same system that the republic had and they figured they were going to be able to get out and plenty of time and incidentally i think that when people ask why is the titanic so fascinating it was the world's first reality

shipwrecked. david sat on the top of the department store in new york city and listened to all of the rescue traffic and send it to the newspapers said this incredible frenzy was built else titanic was sinking. >> one of the first questions be asked is how come there are 500 light boats, how come they were not overfilled? >> when you start to look at the low angle break up it only goes down to 11 degrees come and it is supposed to act as its own lifeboat and it created an environment where people felt help is coming, and it certainly makes it a lot more difficult to convince yourself i'm going to get in a little boat in the middle of the ocean in the middle of the night where it's

cold as opposed to staying here with held on the way. >> my question is in world war i now there's the shuttle. i do research like fees transportation accidents define a 20th century world war one, two and 336 route one are these transportation act solicit eighth act of unconsciousness forming as a free to your warning or is qeii if the new titanic, that's my question. >> i think we want to build bigger, faster, better. with titanic we wanted to get across the atlantic with a space shuttle, we want to go into

outer space. so, you know, how big can we get sometimes we don't know how or limitations until we reach the failure point has just happened. >> what we are talking about with all but and there's a lot of things that lead up to the sinking but after the fact we are talking out the public and spin, things that are in the headline of every paper every day for all of us. estimate for the last 100 years prior to finding the rack and these pieces, they got away with at bozeman went to their graves were very wealthy people and

although they didn't start out wanting or even intending for this to happen, what it did they didn't do the right thing. >> thanks for having us and making sure everything went just fine. thank you all for coming. [applause] >> everyone knows about, but n again, the suspicion was raised

when i realized the back of thei car was lured to the ground thae the front. and given the rules ofront. engagement, you can't just shoot smeone because they looked suspicious. >> why did you shoot him?r, >> i got scared. >> you got scared, so you killee a man? soou killed a >> yes, sir, i have a gun. s >> you can't do that to be and given the rules of engagementdo you can't just shoot someone and gi unless you know they have ave within 't just shoot someone unless you know they have the weapon, you know they're aiming, or you know that they've been -- they've killed someone or they're in, i should say, they're in the action. so given the rules of engagement, i couldn't just shoot someone that looked suspicious. so i knew the best thing to do was to yell at him to get out of his car. so as i did, i was looking over my left shoulder kind of facing

him. i was in the lead stryker vehicle, had metal basically up to my neck, i was inside the stryker standing up. i still had my m-4, my oakley m frames on, i was looking cool. had my kevlar on. doing everything that i was supposed to do. looked at him and said, hey, get out of your vehicle. and i knew he heard me because he looked over his shoulder straight at me and raised his hands off the steering wheel and then put 'em back down. nothing happened. i was like, okay, well, maybe he understood or maybe he's saying i don't know where i am, i'm lost. i didn't know. so i yelled at him again. he raised his hands up again off the steering wheel and shook his hands no and let his foot off the brake. i then had to make a decision. so i shot two rounds in front of his vehicle with my m4 and, boom, my world went black. i woke up a week or so laettner

walter reed army medical center, my life forever changed. my world went black not only physically, being blind the rest of my life, the shrapnel had cut my left eye in half, entered the frontal lobe on the left side of my brain and metal went through my cornea and taking out my optic nerve. i saw nothing but blackness and was told by the ophthalmologist that you would never be able to see again. so my life went physically black. that day. but it also went spiritually black. i no longer believed in god. everything that i'd done, everything that i believed in now no longer meant anything to me. i remember one of my best friends, edward, coming into the room. i think it was before one of my surgeries and said, hey, scotty, why don't you say a prayer?

i said, no. i don't know how to pray, and i don't know god. and i think it, the room went dead silent. like if there were cockroaches in the room, you would have heard 'em. my wife went back to her room realizing, you know, i'd been married to an awesome man, and i still am, and i'd be fine married to a blind guy, but being married to someone who didn't believe in what he believed in before, that was something different. so she began to pray. friends began to pray all around the world. and for me it was a choice that i had to make. it was a personal choice that i had to make. i knew i had support. friends would come into my room on a daily basis singing christian songs. i know doctors thought our room was creepy because balloons would be coming out, i thought the room was huge. apparently, it was like a little match boxcar. but it was that support. but again, it still came back to me.