>> one more question it failed because members of congress so you are putting this board wants to guarantee members of the senate fell back on this and know what's in it after the election. >> it's a very good point. as i was half thinking through what's needed here is you need time to evaluate, and you need time to educate, and you need time to negotiate, you really do. and it's going to take considerable time and considerable effort. anybody that was involved in the commission from anybody involved in the group of six, you are talking hundreds of hours the were put in by the members of those efforts and it's just going to take time. i know everybody is in patient.

we want to do it right now. on want to do that right now. but others are going to need some more time and it is also true for fiscal commission report is going to need adjustments and that takes negotiations. >> yes, sir petraeus too let me be clear was the original plan to have an extended markup or did you come to that conclusion after consulting with colleagues >> it sort of evolved as we talked to people about -- my question has been how do you maximize the chances of getting a result? >> thank you. i'm sorry, you've got one? >> we have been negotiating. >> two years. >> you put this as your budget. what is to prevent all of the colleagues for for getting about

this? >> there are two things that are going to focus people's attention. all of the tax cuts expiring and sequestered. that is the thing i believe has the potential, and i can't guarantee it will lead to have result. >> of the tax cuts expiring. they sent a sequester. you tell us, i don't know. those are the events that are coming our way that are going to create the next opportunity to do something the country needs us to do. this will be the last one. >> i guess i was wondering how much of the language was released by cooper why do you think they worry they said they basically got shellacked from the left and the right and they

were going to try to bring it forward. >> this goes back to the original fiscal commission. this isn't a leader iteration that's what they did. islamic this is around the fiscal commission plan. thank you. >> we are going to be providing about the mark. you deserve a reward for setting process -- sitting through this. [inaudible conversations]

the key changes. social security is not in these numbers. as i indicated it is plausible, and the description area. >> [inaudible conversations] >> i haven't talked to members of the curve of six because this is in the budget committee. >> there are the significant

changes. one as i said social security is not in the numbers because under the budget law can't have them. it was up two more years because obviously it is 2010. the baseline for the revenue is now based on current policy which makes the tax for the revenue looks larger but it's the same as simpson bowles because virtually everybody has moved to a policy baseline. the discretionary savings are the same as simpson bowles the security is somewhat different because we have reflected rot

making recounts his life and the video recording of his beating feith dirty selection began this week in the retrial of the former major league pitcher roger clemens charged by federal prosecutors with knowingly lying to congress in february, 2008 on performance enhancing drug use in baseball. >> let me read to you what his wife said in her affidavit. i do depose and state in 1999 or

2000, andy told me he had a conversation with roger clemens in which rogers admitted to him using human growth hormone. mr. clemens, once again, i remind you you are under oath. you said your conversation never happened. if that was true, why would laura remember in the telling her about the conversation? >> once again, i think he misremembered the conversation that we had. our relationship was close enough to know if i get on hgh which i now know if he were knowingly knowing that i had taken hgh we would talk about the subject. he had come to me to ask about the effect of it.

the space shuttle discovery flew from the last time today as it arrived in washington on top of the model 5747.

the world's most troubled space ship left florida early tuesday for its destination. the smithsonian air and space museum near washington. on the way the shuttle and its carrier flew over washington several times. >> landrieu 13503 and there are several helicopters east of the airport. [inaudible] >> okay. i can keep them in the cavernous he wants to talk to me directly

on pluto 98. estimate we are going to be landing full length as possible. >> okay. we can work pretty much anything out to get him landing but we will just keep him in the pattern and get him as fast as possible. estimate of the wind is 34014. >> thank you.

>> [back ground noise] [background noise] >> i may be moving you midfield right away after the 747 landsea to get on wrong way 30 to get him through because it's critical >> we will be ready.

>> peace 38 is going to be making a right turn and we are going to try to get him on the ground so he might be passing just barely below you on the east downward trend so i need you to stay out 2000, okay?

>> prudhoe 98 when you break off maintain 1,500 write down when we are going to have nuclear to land as soon as you tell me you can break out. >> as soon as the team's 38 and the 74 are cleared cross the runway. >> copy that.

[background noise] turn left at the end and contact ground. >> prudhoe 98 clear to land 340 out 14.

[background noise] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> i know you hear me at home. >> you can claim up whenever you need. >> if i can get close to the aircraft for pictures.

>> he's just crossing up there. fistic the other helicopters flying of right now. >> we are aware. >> he's the only one. >> the other one is holding up east and has a wide lens camera. >> we are just going to shadow now. >> if you copy that he is just going to shadow the rest. >> go ahead and proceed. >> all right, pluto 98, right exit, contact ground 3.25.

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [background noise]

[background noise] [background noise]

[background noise]

[background noise] [inaudible conversations]

>> proceed eastbound. [inaudible conversations]

senior officials from that message nebraska on tuesday of the agency's western office was able to spend more than $800,000 on las vegas conference. plus thousands more on other work related trips at the taxpayers' expense. monday the offical at the center of the controversy invoked his fifth amendment right to remain silent. this is a little more than five hours. >> the inspector general's report on the conference that

costs taxpayers nearly a million dollars. we've seen a lot of reports about the loss of a disk lavish vacation, the spending, and i appreciate making member cummings on the government oversight committee as well as the chairman for discussing in great detail the lavish expenditures and the wrongdoing that happened on the las vegas vacation. the purpose of the committee is to talk about the systemic problem how deep it goes, the corruption, fraud, waste isn't just within the western region but within the gsa as a whole and possibly within other agencies. the committee is going to lay out a time line of how many trips, how many people, how much money. we are going to talk about how big of a problem this is and how

deep within the at ministration goes. you heard yesterday the testimony of mr. robertson the chief of staff who is also the white house liaison and was on senator obama's personal staff. we are going to hear today from mr. peck who for the last year and a half i have asked and requested on a bipartisan level, we sent to e-mails, memos, held hearings and asked for a budget that is outside of the converse purview. we've been held up for far too long and i'm here to tell you the box tops here. we are not going to hold up any longer. the american public demands to see the budget on the public building fund, the federal building fund, and how that money has been spent. this fund is no longer going to

be used for personal use. when a federal buildings, and other agencies pay rent into this personal building fund is meant to redevelop, which we have been attempting to do the last year and a half felt the properties that are on used underutilized and redevelop back to work where we can by utilizing these funds. the public has a right to know how much money is in this fund, where it's been used, a full accountability of the past. we are producing the new administrator about what has been done to represent those that have been involved but

again this goes much deeper to what's already happened. the american public deserves to have money taken back and where crimes have been committed people will go to jail and if we have future hearings on this topic you that we will. this is about the trust of the government and the waste of taxpayers' dollars. and she consents my anger and frustration, you should see it at home. we have double-digit unemployment, the highest foreclosure right in the nation, people out of work, twice the national average and to see these types of expenditures to see the stonewalling by this agency for the last

year-and-a-half hiding from the public the expenditures that have been made and what's happened with this public building fund. i'm looking forward to full testimony this morning to get to the bottom of it. winder not only of the waste of money but the fact there would be people that the systemic issues is that you would naturally go out and brag about, you would insult to the ranking member and former chair of the committee who chaired the committee while you were having this vacation, you would laugh about our commander in chief and laugh about how he would spend this money. this goes down from the entrance to those of the top, and it's a culture that we are going to get to the bottom of and let me

issue a warning if this continues to go on, if we continue to see this type of spending we will continue to audit. if we continue to see you are not giving the information on a bipartisan level to show how these expenditures are happening, i am prepared to systematically pull apart gsa to the point we will make it a question to the american public whether gsa is needed of all. but the wasteful spending is going to stop and the transparency is going to begin to provide now like to recognize the ranking member for any statements she may have. estimates before, mr. chairman. our subcommittee has just returned from its scheduled recess where we are obligated to

turn to the general service administration inspector general and others today for testimony about the 2010 western region conference. a conference run amok near las vegas nv. the final report found that expenditures related to the conference were coming and here i am quoting, excessive and wasteful and that in many instances the gsa followed neither the patrol laws or its own policy in conferences. some who plan a conference appeared to have deliberately set out to have a boondoggle of a conference, and explicitly to go, quote, over the top in the words of one conference planner hiring of the mind leaders and

clowns and a dinner in the desert at the taxpayers' expense at a casino resort occurred before the recovery began to take hold as millions of americans were living hand to mouth struggling under the worst recession since the great depression. the emerging evidence shows that the conference had been building in extravagance for years but in the last ten years has escalated considerably coming to light. moreover, coupled with the conference scandal, the reports by the ig of a federal employee awards program and the same region with little or no controls resulting with more excess of spending.

they help feed the exorbitant conference in nevada fer ipod and other technology to employees for the non-work-related matters. i sat on the subcommittee for more than 20 years and by and large has found the gsa appointed officials and civil servants alike including some of those named in the report to be among the most dedicated and federal employees. it's particularly disappointing that the actions of the few officials cast a shadow of the hard work and professionalism of the great majority of the gsa

employees. i'm grateful to the president for acting immediately to take off the top officials and bring a professional and impeccable at six. further it was a political appointee of the administration who first alerted the ig when she saw signs of possibly excess of expenditures which connection to the 2010 conference. the result was the investigation was outlined in the wasteful spending that is the subject of today's hearing. the top political appointees that were overseen, the public buildings service was destroyed and the civil servants who were responsible for planning the conference were placed on administrative leave pending disciplinary ratings as required

by law. the alarming behavior was indefensible, but the system that was designed to identify and punish that behavior works. much work remains that they involve considerable reform and even restructuring of the agency to but i look forward to hearing from officials about the themselves believe must be taken. thank you, mr. chairman. islamic at astana or would like to recognize mr. micah. >> i have to think you for your leadership and not just on this issue but outrageous matter that's before us from the very beginning and i had to select someone to share the

subcommittee that oversees public buildings. i think we are a country that was fortunate to have you and your experience and leadership and i see when we met our first assignment was to pick up what we had discussed we would do before you got here in the minority, and be published this report. this report was october ironically of 2010, the same time that they were spending money on the gsa outlandish convention. but this is entitled the federal government must stop sitting on its assets. it's all online and i hope you'll get a chance to read it. the first part starts right out with gsa, and the abuse of not just millions of dollars in a convention junket, but billions

of dollars in waste. this was the primary and i couldn't have had a better partner. one of the very first hearings this committee did and i asked him to help lead was in the vacant genex building next to the post office vacant for almost 15 years between that and the old post office losing $6 million a year. this in perspective. here again, i reference this document, so this isn't the johnny-come-latelies hearing or attempt to get an agency under control. we held the first hearing in that empty building. it was 32 degrees outside, 38 degrees inside. the picture you can see year. the bureaucrats with their coats on as we brought them down to

the empty building to try to get a 6 million-dollar a year loss again, two blocks from the white house, a federal building. there's the empty building that we held the hearing and and get it turned around and make it a productive property. the federal general services administration is our government landlord. it's appalling to see the wasteful spending of course on this conference as outlined not just this conference, he will talk about trips to hawaii, atlanta, junkets to the south pacific, california, atlanta, hawaii, guam, pam, all at taxpayers' expense. but that is just the tip of the

iceberg. the billions that are lost, again, by having the federal government primary lan port agency out of control, not operating as it should come and making the assets perform for the public is what is outrageous we smelled a rat and we asked for data because if you look at the budget and the expenditures for the public building commissioner, it went from $2.9 million in 2007 to 9 million. that's what, two or 300% increase? so we started asking for data and we got stonewalled time and time again. he asked almost every hearing you heard him say we've requested information and data. what we got instead, this is

what we got instead, folks. just a few pages of the top numbers. anyone can see now why they didn't want to disclose what was going on. ms. norton said, and alladi agree, we have thousands of people that work for the federal government who work day in and day out and do a good job. this is for our federal employees. we have some incredible men and women. we are going to hear from one of them today. susan brita. she worked on this committee. when you see the timeline of what took place, you see a time line of cover-up and a timeline of deceit and keeping the contras in the dark on what was going on and you see one woman that stood out. the conference was held, what, october 10th in las vegas.

in november she requested viag, the office of inspector general look into this matter. our committee has legislative oversight and responsibility for public hearings and we toward the dead this very much with mr. isaac as he has broad jurisdiction over the white house and others that we don't, and he said yesterday the timeline we know about this in june of 2011. that's great for the president and others to condemn the action in the last week or two. they've known for you nearly a year of what was going on. and again, our former staffer not only went to the ig on this, but other matters, and that is detailed and i will submit this list for the record, mr. chairman.

>> it is kind of sitting in a way and it's to the american people this has been revealed. maybe it would have been revealed. it could have been swept under the table but for one person who stood up and i wanted to hear from her today. i hope they haven't intimidated her. i hope she feels secure it and realize is the we recognize her patriotism and stepping forward, and again, revealing what was calling on because otherwise we might not have known. we might have been handed a one sheet that said don't pay attention. when i announced i was going to do hearings on this, i was pretty saddened by the comments of the majority leader of the u.s. set to the cassette.

he said mica needs to get a life. i have a life and that is dedicated to waste and inefficiency in the federal government and bringing the business type common sense practices to whether the gsa or other federal agencies. so, we were stonewalled and delayed, we were not given information, but the american people need to know that this is just the tip of the iceberg and we will hear much more about what is going on and what needs to be done to reform the agency to replace it. we had a discussion be it's time to look at a total replacement. how many of you out there if you had property would turn it over to the federal government to manage for you? i ask you that question. not very many of you. if you see the wasteful overhead and cost and what takes place when you are on the tax payers

nine, it's even more offensive. with sefton i thank ms. martin for her cooperation, mr. dinham for his leadership and other members for being with us today. >> indifference to the administration's request we will swear in those that have been fired and put on administrative leave and resigned to get there. at this time, i would like to request mrs. johnson, mr. peck, ms. daniels to please rise. stand and raise your right hand to be sworn in under oath. do you swear the testimony you're about to provide to the committee is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god? >> we will have two panels today. the first panel includes, and i invite you back to the table the honorable brian miller inspector

general. >> mr. chairman, i would just like to insert at this point in the record to comment and note for the record that he is not with us today. we had requested that he would be with us and i guess he has taken the fifth on another committee and is not appearing today against one of the requests that i made for him to be with us. the only way we will get to see him is on a video in a hot tub, but i want to make certain that it's noted in the record that he did not appear. estimate mr. miller, this brita, deputy at administrator, chief financial officer, mr. robert papp former building, former public building services commissioner, chairman already

said the attorney refused to appear this morning and ms. lisa daniels the planner for the public building services join us at the table up front. >> i ask unanimous consent that our witnesses statement be included in the record. without objection, so ordered. since you're written testimony has been made a part of the record of the subcommittee would request you limit your testimony to five - and as far as this committee today, we will be going by the strict five minute rule. we have a lot of questions. it's going to be a long hearing. we want to make sure that we have as many opportunities to go through the member's request as possible. mr. miller, you may proceed.

>> good morning, german, german mica, ranking member norton. thank you for inviting me here this morning to testify about the report. i think everyone is familiar with the facts of the report. i would simply ask that my written statement and the report itself be included in the record. i would be happy to answer any questions. thank you. >> good morning, chairman, ranking member morton, thank you for inviting me to testify this morning to you can you hear me? how about this? >> as you know i spent 18 years on the committee working in a bipartisan manner to conduct oversight on a variety of

general government management issues but with an emphasis on the operation of the general services administration. february 2nd, 2010i hit the 2011i had the honor of being appointed by president obama to the position of the deputy at the minister of the service administration. during my 18 years in this committee, there were serious issues this committee addressed, but none rise to the level of the wasteful spending and lack of management associated with the western region conference. the deputy administrator has is a full-service and as a taxpayer i share your anger and disappointment in the conduct. when i first became aware of the excessive spending related to the conference i requested to the inspector general conduct a review of these obligations. i am grateful to mr. miller and his office for the work they did in uncovering and reporting these abuses. i believe the inspector general's report took immediate corrective action and i advocated for such action. i am committed to working with the of administrator to restore

faith in the agency will only to the members of this committee but also to the colleagues and other government agencies and more importantly, the american taxpayer. i look forward to answer many questions that he may have. >> good morning, chairman of the german mica, ranking members of the subcommittee. i am the chief financial officer of the general service administration. i appreciate the opportunity to come before the committee today. i have served as the gsa cfo since september 27, 2010 before arriving at the gsa i serve on the internal revenue service for five years as a cfo and deputy cfo weary oversaw the financial management and accounting operations for the 12 billion-dollar budget and $2.3 trillion in tax revenues. i also have a exhibit position as the staff director and cfo at the federal election commission and deputy assistant administrator at the office of finance of the drug enforcement

administration. until the acting administrator's recent actions to centralize oversight financial management, gse financial management operations were decentralized and managed by the regional cfo with no oversight or control by my office. the budget in all costs for the region conference were approved by employees in the pacific region including those in the regional budget and financial management division commonly referred to as the region cfo and not by anyone in the office of the cso. this the central is organizational structure of the financial operations increased to the rest of these types of abuses at the regional conference and in the house of program. in my experience that the irs and other federal agencies, the agency had cso had far more oversight and control. to correct these issues, the administrator has already taken strong action by realigning all

public buildings service regional budget and financial management operations under the direct authority of the gsa cfo. in addition to the strengthening of the internal control environment, the acting administrator is receiving employee verification requiring all future relocations to be approved by both the people's officer and the cfo and has closed the store as well as all similar programs. in addition to the actions taken by the acting administrator i added to controls to the process. first now performing an additional review of the selected approved invoices before the payment to verify the appropriateness of the expenditures. the second control is the addition of the three of view of obligated amounts compared to the budgeted amounts to ensure a expenditures are within the budget. the controls with the center position of the budget and financial management operations will greatly improve the ability to prevent the abuses described in the report.

i welcome the opportunity to answer questions. thank you. >> good morning, chairman, german mica comer remember norton and members my name is robert pack and earlier this month and served as the national commissioner of the public buildings service of the gsa. having served in that role previously from 1995 to 2001. i'm deeply troubled and disappointed by what i've learned about the costs associated with the western region conference held in october of 2010. there were excess of inappropriate costs that should never have been incurred. those planning it made fundamental errors of judgment and it's also troubling the pertinent policies, travel policies and other agency procedures appear not to have been followed to real violence doesn't pose all the involved in planning, conducting or approving the conference and the on acceptable expenditures described in the report took place within the p.s. on my watch. i'm not here to assure that response with the.

i'm deeply disappointed by what the ig report it. i've been removed from the job i love and offer my personal apology that some people within the gsa acted as they did. the taxpayers deserve better than this. the actions of those responsible for the expenditures outlined in the report failed to meet the obligation we all owe to the american people. those actions failed to meet the standards i expected from those employed in the headquarters and throughout the regions. the actions dishonored the thousands of hard-working and dedicated fervor went leaves i've worked with over the years. at the other agencies that federal employees and managers with whom i have worked in my time but inside and outside of the government overwhelmingly has been concerned with carrying out their missions within the government rolls of the lowest cost possible. as pps commissioner, i wasn't involved in planning conferences. as a political appointee i had a policy to not be involved in the selection of contractors or vendors and in the case of the

2010 western region conference it was an organized the event and while i was invited to address the conference and get nothing to do with its plan and more was involved in approving any part of its spending or program in advance. i was present for only a portion of the conference before returning to d.c.. as is the case with most federal agencies, the gsa holds training conferences for its employees and in my many years i attended a number of conferences. from what i personally saw, the conferences i attended were not extravagant. the 2010 western region conference described in the ig report was a serious aberration. when i arrived the first afternoon of the conference i was shown to a very large suite. i questioned the organizers as to the cost. they told me about all the rules within the government including this room and that my sweet was included the basic rate as possible of the conference package of rooms. my first morning at the conference i made a power point presentation to the entire group

about the national pbs goals and priorities. i attended the presentations from the four western regions about their projects and performance, and another about the sustainability goals. that afternoon i asked the conference organizers to invite a number of employees of their choosing to my room. my intention was to have a meeting and agreed with a for both employees attending the conference. the reception went from about 6 p.m. to 7:30 p.m.. since this was my initiative, rather than an event on the organizers agenda i said i would pay for the beer, wine and chips. i was told sood would be made available without additional cost under the conference contract with the hotel. the beer and wine were purchased separately and upon returning to d.c. i wrote a check for the cost. only within the past few weeks did i learn from the inspector general that the food for the reception was apparently invoiced as $1,960. it isn't unusual for them to issue the report that federal

managers count on that as part of our internal oversight. in the normal course of events, aig will issue the draft report and the agency will respond and ultimately issue a final report with its recommendations. the ig recommendations including those calling for any disciplinary action awarded nearly unplanted following the release of a final report. in this case, the oig issued a preliminary report last may and at that time i understood that the ig cautioned them not to take personnel actions until the final report was complete. that final report which contained the ig recommendations was just published two weeks ago to read until the draft report last year i was not aware that there had been in the numerous trips in connection with this conference nor was i aware until i recently informed by viag the there were questions about the competitive contracting procedures used to find the conference hotel. as i indicated it is now clear that much of the expense of the hotel was excess of an unacceptable therefore even

before having the benefit of the final report, i took measures to try to ensure something like this wouldn't happen again. in fiscal, 2011 in response to this conference and as a part of my focus on the overhead expenses, i canceled a number of nationally controlled pbs conferences, instituted a review of the outside conference attendance and took steps to reduce spending on travel. further, when i was first interviewed about the conference by the ig last month, i invited them to audit other conferences that pds conducted under my tenure. i deeply regret the behavior of the gsa and we is involved in this incident and the damage that it has caused. i look forward to answering any questions that you may have. >> [inaudible conversations]

>> as the german mentioned mr. newly isn't with us today. he's used his constitutional right to plead to the amendment and has hired a lawyer, nor did he testify yesterday. ms. daniels, you are next to testify. do you have a lawyer? >> i do not. >> can you pull the microphone please? >> i do not have a lawyer. >> i would just issue you a word of caution. i've read your testimony and there's a great deal of trouble and information on their. i would certainly issue of caution as you testify. ms. vandals, you may proceed.

>> good morning triet this is my first time at a hearing. i'm not -- i did not prepare a testimony because i was placed on administrative leave last wednesday. all of my files or confiscated, i was directed to turn in all of my government equipment, and my cellphone to the dollar drew a chart in fort worth on thursday morning to read and on thursday evening, my supervisor called me late in the evening and said i would be receiving a letter from the house of representatives requesting my testimony. as you know i did not provide 100 copies by close of business. i received my letter of 10:30 friday morning, and i'm not

clear what testimony you are referring to unless you're referring to interviews i held with the ig of which i didn't find anything other than by guarantee warning and without my files or anything and i wasn't even sure since the title of the hearing was a pattern of mismanagement, excess and waste i didn't feel comfortable without my computer or files to be able to even provide a testimony to that effect. i will be happy to answer any questions. ..

>> i want a better understanding how you get around rules and executive orders when the president issues an executive order, how members of an agency may regard those executive orders and figure out a way to get around it. my staff put together an outline here for me. basically, if you get a large number of people together, in this case, the western regional

conference, 300 people, that gives you a reason to have an offsite meeting. certainly, you could have a meeting in des moines, iowa or modesto, california, but the purpose of the lavish conferences is to go to places like hawaii and las vegas, pom springs, napa, new orleans. that's going to be a good question on why the conference would be to go to new orleans which is not the western conference. you go to a luxury resort. how much per diem are you supposed to get on a trip? >> per diem varies from place to place, and it's listed on the gsa website as to how much per diem per day individuals would get. for example, in las vegas, per diem for breakfast is $12, and

it's stated that there's a chart on per diem. if your question is why did they have the conference, the western region conference this year, they said they wanted to showcase gst's talent. >> is the per diem cumulative? meaning if you pay your own way for the entire week, you get a check at the end of the week? is it, you get a breakfast, lunch, and dinner per diem? ? >> you put a voucher in and get repaid the money. it's $71 a day in las vegas. that's for everything -- meals and everything. the hotel room is $93 so a traveler would come back and submit a voucher, and that would be paid back to the traveler. >> if you got a free room or comped room, you could then apply for the $93 # at the end

of the day? >> if you received a free room, you should not submit that in the voucher. if you received a free meal that the conference provided, you should not submit that in the voucher. >> and how about advertisers? -- appetizers? >> we don't think the appetizers were appropriate at all. they were impermissible expenses. >> how do you get around the rule for appetizers? >> there is a rule that says if you have an award ceremony and food is necessary for the performance of the award ceremony, you may have food. that's as part of the ceremony. that was routinely skirted by region -- >> how often are awards given at the conferences? >> fairly often. >> once a conference? >> at least. >> once a day at a conference? >> i'm not sure if they receive

an award every day. >> what type of award? >> well, they received a number of things. they received souvenir coins. >> to write off a meal, to have the expensive appetizers or full meal whether it's sushi or long list of appetizers we have here, what awards are given. >> i'm not sure that's possible with at awards ceremony. the rule is the food has to be necessary for the rules ceremony. not the other way around. the food dpsh you don't give out an award in order to get the food. you give an award and you have a sierm, and if incidental food is necessary for that awards ceremony, then it's permissible under the rules. it was a running joke -- >> it was justified? >> yes. >> to get around the administration's rule of not having food, they got around it by having an award ceremony at

every conference or every day of a conference? >> many times in region nine, witnesses told us that it became a running joke with the region nine regional commissioner that even at staff meetings, he'd say we're going to have a meeting in another location and we're going to have food, but we have to do what? senior staff is said to have said give out awards, and so according to witnesses that we've interviewed, it was a running joke in region nine that in order to get food, you had to give out awards, and 34 of these awards were silly awards. one of the witnesses characterized them as i guess fake awards and jack ass awards and things of that nature. now, getting back to the question of the regional corchtion, they gave out awards for the theatrical performances.

we do not consider that a proper award. the award has to be for contributions to the work of the agency. >> how do they get around the lodging per diem and get a 200 square foot suite or several of them. how do you get a suite at multiple conferences? how would multiple suites be given when it's only $93? >> well, suites are provided by the hotel. sometimes it's part of the negotiation. a hotel will provide an upgraded room or suites as part of the negotiation. they'll throw in what they call comped rooms. if they have a number of rooms paid for by the government, by the conference. >> what type of negotiation? how would you justify a 2200 -- how in this case would you justify two 220 square foot

luxury suite. that had to be a large contract. how do you get a contract that large? >> well, gsa apparently had a large contract with the hotel, and that the large contract with the hotel would -- >> i'm sorry, you may proceed. >> with a large contract with the hotel, the hotel would throw in a room, and -- >> how do you build up a large contract? >> well, gsa had a number of rooms that they were renting from that hotel, and -- >> rooms alone allowed you to get luxury suites? >> they are catering as well. they had food. >> how much catering? >> it's detailed in the report. they had receptions. they had light refreshments. by the way, light refreshments are allowed in between sessions at a conference according to the rules.

the report identifies food expenditures. on page 9 of the report, we've identified 146,527 of food and beverage catering. >> let me move on. we're short on time here, and we're going to try to stick to the 5 minute rule. if you have luxury suites, how would you bring your entire family and friends? how would you have a 21-year-old birthday party for your daughter? how would you have various friends and family gatherings, extended stays on these different trips? >> well, that would have to be a gift from the hotel. the hotel would provide an upgraded room or a suite and if you're in the middle of negotiating a contract with the hotel, that might be conceived as a gift from the hotel.

>> let me ask you, if you set up a contract and said per diem rate is $93. that's what we can spend on lodging. five days at $93, but we'll spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on appetizers, extend our stay on the front and back end and create a 9-day trip and like 220 square foot rooms to bring our family and friends to throw a party there on the weekend. is that possible? >> not under the regulations. not under the rules. >> is it possible on what you've seen in your investigation. >> yes, yes. in fact, i think that does describe what happened. what you're talking about is essentially inproamplet relationships with vendors, and inappropriate relationship with the hotel would be to go to the hotel and ask for favors that benefit the individuals personally, and all of that is

improper. it is appropriate to negotiate a good rate for the food, appropriate food under the rules, but it's inappropriate to negotiate with vendors for personal benefits. that would -- you're not allowed to use office for personal gain. >> nor can you accept? >> correct. >> any other perks were accepted here? i am out of time. i want to definitely go back to this a little bit deeper, but at this time, i recognize ranking member for five minutes. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. mr. miller, what the chairman has just described, if someone in region nine wanted to know whether or not what they were doing was within the rules, under the present structure,

would they turn to -- who would they turn to in region nine? >> is that directed towards me? >> yeah, to you or -- region nine, if the chairman described -- if someone wanted to know is this within the rules, who would they go to to find out in region nine? >> they have regional council in region nine, and regional coup sill was consulted at least once about the possession of the -- >> and who -- what did regional council say? >> i believe that regional council provided an opinion that the regional commissioner requested was not in writing and if you can hold on a minute --

they provided unwritten opinion about bicycles. when the charity -- >> because there was an inquiry about the bicycles, but not about other things? >> well -- >> who was -- >> the regional commissioner asked about the bicycles because of the disposal of federal property. >> yes. did he have the power or authority on the matters, for example, just described by the authority or reported on matters of the time that have just been described? >> can i clarify mrs. norton's point? they asked for legal opinion on the bicycles; correct? >> yes, they did.

>> and what was the legal opinion? >> the legal opinion was that if the charity maintained the bicycles, it would not be disposable of federal property. >> was that in writing? >> no, it was not in writing. >> is it normally in writing? >> yes, it is. the regional commissioner requested it not be in writing to avoid obligation under foya. >> is that in writing? >> i believe we have evidence of that. i'm not sure if it's a direct writing or not. we have evidence of that. >> to try to cover it up after the request? >> he requested that it not be in writing. >> thank you. >> so the council himself did not want his opinion in writing? what i'm trying to establish who was the operating officer who was in charge of this conference, and whether he, in fact, had to report what happened in the conference or

had to act for any permission or whether he was an island unto himself who had control over region nine and the matters we just heard about. >> what we found in our investigation was the regional commissioner essentially controlled everything, and that he was the final say so he was acting regional administrator at the time. there was little oversight or supervision by central office and, you know, as a practical matter, the regional commissioner decided that. >> yeah. well, i'm going to have questions like this for others and ms. johnson of the structure of gsa traveling in this regard. i'd like to ask a question. there's many coming to your defense. i've known you in this administration and in a prior

administration. it's unusual for people to publicly speak well of someone who has had encountered what you have, been charged by the president. do you understand why the president took out the top of the agency, and do you believe that was the right thing to do and the fair thing to do? >> i understand why he did it, and as i said in my testimony it was on my watch. growing up in a military family, i was an army officer, and i subscribed to the axium, you are responsible for everything your organization does or fails to do. >> i just wanted that on the record. normally, in this country, it doesn't operate the way it does in parliamentary democracies where the top resigns somehow in our country often only people

who have hands on but not direct authority are the ones held culpable so i understand the feelings for you, but in light of how structures should be structured in this country, i'm understanding your response. the question about the letter of reprimand, and he was an island untoe himself. you didn't know anything about him, but what became known, you believed he deserved only a letter of discipline. he may be facing termination now. he may be facing criminal charges. what made you believe what is one of the lightest forms of penalty given his large

responsibility, regional administer and commissioners a letter of discipline was all that should take place here? especially when you say you understand why the president would fire you and other top officials because of the responsibility that the top must have for what goes on in those charged to him. >> i'll allow you to answer, but i ask you to be brief. >> yes, sir. i believe it was the appropriate response at that time. the investigation was ongoing. it was under my impression, and i've seen documentation of us not to take disblip their action -- disciplinary action of anyone involved until -- >> that's what it takes not to take any personnel action, and that's a personnel action, isn't it? >> the letter? >> yeah. >> well, i'm not sure the letter was actually sent. it was a great deal of conversation about what we could and could not do at that time

given what we knew about him. the other thing to note is that a lot more facts have come out since about what happened at that conference, but we certainly -- >> you still believe he just deserves the letter? >> well, not based on what i know now. >> no, at the time, what you knew about the conference, you think it deserved no more than just the letter? >> at the time, we took it into account, and i took it into account in his ratting. i spoke to him and the other regional commissioners about conferences, and i took reaction at the time what we knew what happened at the conference particularly with respect to him and we didn't know about other travel expenditures and other things, we thought that was an appropriate response. at that time, it was like a shot across the back. >> thank you, mr. peck. chairman -- before we do -- in

consulting -- three minutes over. in consulting with democrats in a bipartisan fashion, we have made a determination that ms. daniels, after receiving transcript over the last 48 hours, it is in our judgment on a bipartisan level we'll excuse you at this time. i would advise you as chairman of the committee to seek legal counsel. you're dismissed. chairman micah. >> i thank you. first of all, an expenditure that rises about 300% for the public buildings commissioners from 2.9 million to 9 million,

did that raise -- does that raise any flags to you? 300% increase? actually, it's in about two years. it was about 32 in 2009. >> i'm not sure what number you're referring to. >> the expenditures for the public buildings commissioner's operations. administrative and personnel cost. does that raise any flags? are you aware of a request i had in our committees -- we sent it to david crowley december 7th, 2011, to give us a break down of administrative costs? >> i was not aware of that request and just became aware of it as the public buildings services came close to finalizing its response. >> we've been trying to get this information since last year. you're the chief financial officer, and, of course, in my opening statement i described

what was said to us, and we see why there was not much detail given to us now. mr. miller, well, first of all, susan, you asked this conference took place in october 2010 and november shortly thereafter. you asked for an ig review; is that correct? >> correct. >> it looks like a preliminary briefing was not done until may of 2011. all of this was not made public until a few weeks ago, mr. miller. what took so long between briefing add min straiter johnson -- administrator johnson in may 20 # 11? >> chairman mica, we investigated a number of individuals. we interviewed individuals. we turned over every stone and

every time we turned over a stone, we found 50 more with all sorts of things crawling out from under it. >> you never published a report. in june, after providing that briefing to administrator johnson, you somehow the gsa chief, mr. michael robertson here yesterday before the ogr committee informed kimberly harris, the white house council, about the investigation going on. were you aware of that? >> i was not aware of that. >> you were not aware of it. it was interesting that back in may, you advised administrator johnson to get a handle on the regional commission. this is may of 20 # -- 2011 on the regional

commissioner's travel; is that correct? >> chairman mica, i did brief administrator johnson on the interim report. >> but did you tell them to get a handle on his travel expenditures? >> i told the regional administrator to get a handle on his travel in august -- >> so you told him. >> her. >> okay. and then we have a trip to hawaii. we have another trip to hawaii in october. another trip to atlanta. another warning, susan warned, i guess, you, about an upcoming 17-day south pacific junket headed by neeley? >> actually, chairman, we were so concerned about it we contacted the deputy administrator.

>> who contacted her? >> who said, you know -- >> you notified the regional administrator about the upcoming junket and expressed concern; right? >> i did. >> what happened? >> i expressed concern, and asked her to review the plans and make sure -- >> that called it off, didn't it? >> no. >> it went on that junket. then another one to california. hawaii, guam, a trip with staff, another trip to atlanta, 4-day site visit to hawaii, and then i guess one -- where's napa? the trip to nap pa, is that california? oh, you got to go to the wine region. i see why he's not with us today, and the only pictures i can get of him are in the hot tub suite, but i thank you for

your coming forward and for your trying to be a good steward of taxpayer dollars. i yield back. >> thank you, chairman mica. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. ranking member, thank you for having the very important hearing today. needless to say, i was appalled when i first heard about some of the things that the gsa administration charged the taxpayers for their conference. this congress has had its share of disagreements over the past on how to reduce the federal spending and how to address the deficit issue; however, i think that we all can agree on that there's no place, this type of a taxpayers' abuse of funds. employees that put together this conference forgot that the

federal government is supposed to work on behalf of the taxpayers, families, and small businesses should not have to pay for employees of gsa to take lavish vacations in las vegas or anywhere else throughout the country, and i hope that we can get the information that we need here today to make sure that this does not happen again. additionally, i plan to offer an amendment to the financial service and general government appropriation bills to prevent gsa from holding this type of conference in the future, but this is just extremely disturbing. i do want to commend you for what you have done and are going to do. hopefully, with the agency, i guess, my question is for the inspector general is since this

has been brought to light in the public's attention, what has been done or will be done in the future to make sure this does not happen again, and for the jury jury -- inspector general, has the ig looked at other agencies that you're aware of for similar type of abuse that might have occurred or is occurring? >> we are currently looking at all the conferences in region nine, and we're looking at conferences in general. >> just region nine? >> no -- well, we're focusing on region nine right now, but we are generally looking at conferences. we are receiving a number of hot lines as you can imagine about other conferences throughout the country. >> asking the add min straiter,

asked to do a complete top to bottom review of the agency, managing structure reporting lines, centralization versus decentralization, and with the approvement of management and overall service delivery of the agency. >> is the acting directer also looking at making sure that the program is reimbursed? >> yes, sir. he's already taken action in that regard. three letters sent, and additional letters will be forthcoming, yes. >> and, mr. miller, what do you think or what should congress do to ensure this does not happen again, not only with gsa, but other agencies so when you look at these types of conferences? >> i think supporting i girks helps. we have -- ig helps. we have to investigate these

fraud, abuses, and waste. you cannot legislate good mountain -- management so i think one of the things you can do is strap inspectors general in all the agencies. >> now, as far as gsa, do you under staff the inspector general's office, gsa and how many veigh vacancies do you currently have? >> that's left to the judgment of the appropriators. we currently have 70 special agents. they are the ones that actually interview witnesses, and i think you've read some transcripts with our special agents on there. we have frepsic auditors -- forensic auditors trying to find all the funds to purchase cards as part of this conference charge to build operation funds, trying to trace the money so we do have auditors, and we have auditors. currently, we're under our fte

level, and we're not hiring due to appropriation problems. >> do you submit to the committee of the number of vacancies you currently have? >> i would be happy to. >> thank you. out of time. thank you very much, mr. chairman. >> vice chair, mr. crawford. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. peck, what were your impressions. $30,000 pool party award ceremony given an award for your work on the stimulus program? >> there was a reception, i think, in the afternoon. i got there. it was outdoors at the hotel. i was not aware of what it cost until i was remined by the investigator. i don't know remember what was food was because i didn't eat much of it nor was i aware there might have been an award ceremony to justify food expenses. that's not something i would have thought of, not a rule i

believe i was familiar with. i saw it as part of a hotel package i had seen both in public and private sectors before. those kinds of receptions were provided as part of a hotel package. that's -- i thought at the end of the day, not knowing the expense, i didn't think it was out of the ordinary. one thing about the awards? >> sure. >> if i have an opportunity, i want to say something. i left the government in 2001, federal agencies did not give out coins. when i came back in 2009, this evolved from the military where civilian agencies had coins. everywhere i went, i got a coin from their agency. there's a coin manipulated for the commissioner's office. when i was asked, when i was told they were running out and we had to order more, i asked how much they cost. it was $10 a piece. i said they don't need coins. if i want to award them, i'll

give them a handshake or a certificate. that was my concern. i was concerned when i saw the coins. i will say that. >> okay. we'll come back to that in a minute. put up a slide of the suite. when you arrivedded at your suite, what was your impression? >> that it was crazy large and that kind of like you'd see in las vegas, and i also, as i noted in my testimony, immediately asked what the charge was for this suite and whether there was an extra charge for it. >> okay. i have an e-mail here dated october 28th. it's from you to jeff and it states, jeff, the conference is unbelievable. awesome terrific lessons on what preparations are on professionalism and just a rave review to martha johnson. thank you for inviting me. you want to comment on that? >> yes, sir. i was, at that time, i arrived

on monday amp, late monday morning, but i had seen work during the presentations that i saw, the one day i was there, a number of presentations substantive about the work of the public building services. the work by the four regions was good. the conversations i saw during the sessions were about the work of pbs and how to get work done better. i thought that was professional and that's what i was referring to. >> when you threw a party in your suite, who paid for the food and alcohol, about a $2,000 bill for the food. you indicated in your testimony and your written testimony that you paid for the alcohol; is that correct? >> yes, sir. >> bar tenders and staff there for the party. >> no, sir. not to the best of my recollection, but i don't recall that. >> why would it be okay -- there were no awards at this party. why is it okay to bill the

taxpayers for $2,000 worth of food at your party. >> it would not. >> it's not okay to do that? >> no, sir. as i said, because it was not -- the awards ceremony was not an official function, i had a practice when i went to meetings whether it was regional office building or somewhere else to meet employees and talk shop. the thing was a pre-dinner thing. i thought it was nice to do, and i specifically said it was not a part of the conference program. i would pay for it myself. by the way, i was not prepared for fancy food and that's why i said let's do beer, wipe, and chips. other food arrived. i said how did that happen? they said it's covered in the existing conference contract. i said something to the effect of no additional cost? i did not know it was charged additionally or separately until i was interviewed by an ig agent about, i guess, four weeks ago now when i asked him when he told me about the money whether

that was an additional amount or covered by the contract. in any event, i totally agree with you. i had no intention of charging it to the taxpayers. it was not legitimate, and i yesterday sent a letter to the inspector general that i'm prepared to pay that back. >> okay. one question for mr. miller. the ig reports are a great window in how the agency is run. would the public be better served to have a central report where any citizen could access the reports and be provided with the opportunity to learn what the agency does and why the reports are important? >> i believe that would help. we have a website where you can access our public reports, and every ig does. there's a website called ignet.gov to give you the list of all the ig websites. >> all right, thank you. i field back. >> thank you.

>> thank you, chairman and ranking member norton. i want to chank the chairman, too, for his unwaiverring commitment to transparency, and i had the opportunity along with congressman to work on the va side, and i bring that up for a reason. every adjective has been used on this from deeply disappointed, furious, and so forth. no #* -- none, to me, get to the heart of the matter, and the folks sitting here recognize this. it's healthy in democracy to be spectacle about government and large institutions, but it's this type of behavior that moves into cynicism, and cynicism is cancerous. the american public is cynical. if you look at the polling at rates never before seen. they don't trust large financial institutions. they watch wall street go break, the taxpayer dollars bails them out and they get bonuses to people who caused the problems in the first place.

the overseers do the same thing. this attack on trust is so frustrating at a time when, yes, we're all being asked to provide efficiencies and get things on to this, but to put this into perspective and understand choices made here, for you to understand the folks who made the choices exactly what this means, i want to talk a little bit about what it means, the choices we have to. we have an unprecedented number of veterans trying to seek service. in my sunday paper in minneapolis this weekend, it talked about this -- 1.25 million veterans treated for health care, and 70% of the providers said they do not have adequate resources or space. we're asking them to do more for less on the very basic principle providing mental health care for our warriors when they return, and somebody had the audacity to do this. this is beyond public trust. it goes beyond the thought of how do wet get to that

selfishness when others are asked to do more with less. it's frustrating to me this becomes -- and i want to be clear, mr. miller, i'm a huge fan of inspector generals. they return $12 for every $1 we spend on them, and i fought for years to ensure the most important job we do here is to provide oversight on checks and balances, and amongst this thing, you brought up a good point. you can't legislate poor choices made, but we can put in redundancies and safeguards. that's the way you protect against bad judgment and how to protect against a rogue employer or whatever it might be. i'm baffled here redundancies fell through. at some point in time, people look at this. mr. peck, you know this, it's not free lunch. they don't give it to you for free. you spend the money elsewhere. that money was spend elsewhere. they do not give that away. i appreciate your attention to detail in looking at this, but at some point in time, somebody

had to recognize that. your coin issue is right. members of congress have to use their own money or campaign money, private money, not taxpayer money if they use coins. you bring up a point on that, but how does it get passed beyond and just go through the redundancies? mr. miller, back to you for a second. how -- when they knew this was being done on, you know, and you can pick out the thing, sushi, whatever the highlight is, but $40 for breakfast? i'm a big man. i can't spend that. are you kidding me? what it does is the american public believes every single employee and every single agency is corrupt and not doing what they are supposed to, and i watch the mental health providers out in southern minnesota doing the best they can with the crowded waiting room, and it's simply unacceptable, so, mr. miller, i think what needs to come out of this, is, yes, somebody needs to be held accountable, and, yes,

ensuring it doesn't happen again, and that the safeguards are put into place so is it -- how do we do that? how do we strengthen that? what's suggestions if i can ask? >> sir, i think that we need to have stronger central control. i believe the new acting administrator has already instituted more centralized control of the finances so that each bucket is not controlled by a regional commissioner or regional administrator. i think he's working on having control over their i.t. systems as well, but as you said, redundancies, controls, checks and balances, those are all things that can help check the excesses, bad judgment, the criminal activities of others, and we always rely on people to tell us when they see something wrong, and that's why acting administrator and i reminded the gsa employees recently to call

our office if they see anything wrong because we rely on people telling us about this, and i, too, commend susan for bringing this to our attention. >> would you have caught it without her help? would ig been able to figure this out with the things in place without that coming forward? >> that's a difficult question. the -- we're told by witnesses the culture in region nine was a culture that put down anyone that complained. witnesses said that the regional commissioner would put people down, and the witnesses said he knew how to put people down. one witness said there were somebody who tried to raise an objection, and the witness said, quote, "he squashed her like a bug," unquote, and with that atmosphere -- >> that's disturbing. the culture of the organization is where it starts, and if it's there, that's where it starts. that's where it needs to

change. thank you for the time. i yield back. >> thank you. >> thank you. i've gone through this report here, and you know, to be honest with you, i don't know where to start. we could probably spend weeks talking about all of the abuse and the different items of abuse, and to be honest with you, it actually makes me sick to my stomach so i don't want to go there because i think the public will eventually see what happened. i think there's a bigger problem here, a much bigger problem here. see, the people back home in my district in pennsylvania, they may not be able to go on one vacation this year, not one because of the price of gas. they are hard working, blue collar americans. to look at reports where the gsa

spent $136,000 on a scouting trip before the conference is more than upsetting. i'm fortunate i have the opportunity to be here today to get some of this off my chest. most americans don't have that chance. they won't be able to stand here and get it off their chest what they feel. my one year here, i'll tell you, i've seen more waste, fraud issue and abuse in this government, and it's absolutely frightening. it's frightening the way our federal government works. how we treat the hard working taxpayers' dollars and those videos literally make me sick. mr. peck, you said you told someone at the food at your

party, the food in your suite was covered. who did you tell? >> i don't recall exactly. >> okay, who told you that it was covered? >> one of the conference organizers 37 >> who was it? >> i don't recall who it was. >> you don't recall who it was or who you told. >> it may have been -- >> okay. okay. let's move on. who did you ask about the cost of the room? >> i asked one of the other people who worked in the conference. >> they said there was nothing wrong with it? >> who was the other person? >> it was ms. daniels or another perp who worked on the conference. >> is this the only time you witnessed any type of abuse in the gsa? was this conference the only example we could talk about today or were there other times other than this? >> as i said in my testimony, this is the the only conference i'm aware of in which this expense of preconference

planning was out of control. the other gsa meetings i attended were focused on the business of the general services administration and doing a better job getting real estate for the government. >> this is where i'm going about the bigger problem. this happened in 2010, and here we are in 2012 talking about it. it didn't end there. it was not just a one time deal. just this year, february 4th, regional commissioner spent 17 days in guam. 17 days. who does that in private sector? who does that? who leaves their job for 17 days? that's not the way the private sector works. that's not the way real people work. that's not how real companies work. it doesn't end there either. march 12th, a meeting in napa, off site, $40,000 for that meeting. why do we have to meet in napa?

>> that's, i believe you're talking about the same regional commissioner. i don't know. i was not aware of the meeting. the senior management meetings i held were in regional cities. many of them held in federal building conference rooms, boxed lunches, and when people ate out, they paid their own way. those are the meetings, when necessary, are the right meetings. >> who reports to who? we can sit here and pound on him as well he should be pounded on, but who reports to who? who oversees who? i ran a company. i ran a business. i could tell you this would not have been going on, and it wouldn't be two years later we would be talking about it. who reports to who? who oversees whom? who is responsible for whom? who do you report to? at what point do you blow the whistle like she did? at what point do other employees in the gsa say this is wrong? something needs to be done. why are we here now trying to

drag information out of people when most americans are barely making it? i'll finish this. here's the bigger problem. here's a news release. big government doesn't work. it just doesn't work. this is not the way the private sector works. i think we need to be talking about is what are we doing instead of the gsa? because there's lots of abuse in the gsa. there's lots of abuse of other government agencies throughout this government. i believe the $822,000 spent in las vegas by the gsa should be a farewell party. thank you. >> thank you. mr. cummings. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. i thank you and the ranking member with your decision in regards to allowing the witness, ms. daniels, to be excused. i thought that was the appropriate thing to do as a

lawyer practicing for many, many years, i think it was the appropriate thing. the -- i want to follow-up a little bit on some of the questions that mr. walsh was asking -- mr. walz was asking, and, mr. miller, we heard you just restate something you said yesterday before the oversight government reform committee about mr. neeley saying to one witness that you interviewed that she would be squashed like a bug. let me read her entire -- where that statement that she made. i quote -- this is a quote, "she's been trying to bring this stuff up at the board of directors meeting, and she would probably get squashed like a bug when she brought up things

concerning the conferences and the suites specifically at a conference, i mean, the wrc, it was not a one-time thing, but certain people got very extravagant accommodations." does that sound familiar at all? >> yes, sir, it does. >> and the witness also said that, and i quote, "the intimidation factor is pretty large," end of quote. let me return to you, mr. peck. were you aware he intime date -- intimidated employees who reported to him? >> i did not know he intimidated employees, but i did, in fact, know on more than one occasion i had heard that in his headquarters opposed to field offices, there were people who were reluctant to give bad news because he wouldn't take it

well. >> what do you mean by that? >> i meant that this was here say. it's the thing as a manager that i think you want to pick up, and i reflected it in his performance evaluation that meant i heard there were some managers that when people sit in a meeting and say, gee, that's not how we should operate, and to be honest, i thought we were talking about policy issues. i didn't know it was issues of real government waste and integrity, but i heard this enough. >> i want to ask other questions. did any gsa employee raise with you concern about his conduct in terms of lavish or excessive spending? >> not that i recall, sir, no. >> any gsa employee raise with your concerns about his retaliatory actions whether through negative performance reviews, threatening to relocate them, or other similar action?

>> no, sir, not to my recollection, and if i had, i would have taken action on it. >> this gsa employee was squashed like a bug clearly was right about all lavish spending. what's this mean to you if it was not retaliation? >> that -- >> in other words, somebody who felt they had been squashed like a bug. >> it's -- mr. cummings, i wouldn't split hairs over that. it's an intimidating atmosphere. >> if they said that to you, you would have taken some type of action? >> yes, sir. >> according to the inspector regime's office, -- general's off, spent a quarter million dollars when traveling over five years. mr. peck, as head of the public buildings service, did you track the travel expenditures of regional administrators or commissioners? >> mr. cummings, thank you for asking that. the way we tried to maintain manager controls was by

benchmarkings the travel, training, and information technology expenses, and other overhead expenses with the geographic location and dispersion, and that's at least the pbs assistant commissioner of management was supposed to be tracking. i'm not able to access the information anymore. i don't know how it is that that kind of traveling might have happened without showing up in that kind of a review. >> well, you stated that he did a great, quote, "a great job for gsa over the years" end of quote, and argued he should receive positive performance rating and basically defended him. i'm having great difficulty understanding your position. >> okay. >> let me finish. maybe you're not aware of what he was doing or maybe you did not fully appreciate the level of abuse. i agree with mr. walz. this is abusing people. we are better than that. we're a better country than

that. this is a better agency than that. there's no question that his actions were inappropriate and should have been halted, and you were his supervisor, were you not? yes or no? >> no, sir, but i don't want to, again, the way the gsa structure works, the public building -- the regional commissioners do not report directly to the national commissioner; however, there is very strong dotted line authority to the pbs national commissioner so there's certainly i could exert control when i felt it necessary. >> you were head of public buildings, were you not? >> yes, sir. yes, sir. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. >> thank you, mr. cummings. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. miller, i wondered, please tell me what you know about the 2010 intern conference in palm springs. wonder if you can tell me dpsh we heard about lux luxury suites

and award ceremonies. >> we're investigating it. the intern conference occurred between may 10 and may 14, 2010 in palm springs, california. >> what do you know about it so far? >> well, there were 150 attendees, and we are currently in the process of investigating it. there appears to be food served as well. food is also served at that conference, and we're looking into the propriety of that as well as other allegations. >> and mr. peck, how is it after your briefing by the ig in may of last year that you continue to allow lavish conferences to continue? >> in -- as i testify, in fact, when i came back, after that, i canceled a number of conferences

, and before that even, we eliminated funding for the next regional conference and canceled a number of other conferences that i do not believe would have been lavish, but given the budget environment, there was not enough benefit to justify the expense they were going to make us have. >> mr. miller, can you tell us a little bit about the out of site meetings in region nine and how much were the meetings, where would they go, and how much would they cost? >> well, the off site meetings appear to be fairly regular. there was an out of site meeting at napa, i believe, at the end of march of 2012 #, that's r much of this year -- that's march of this year. the leadership meeting in napa, and food is reported to be about $40,000 for that particular off site. we're also looking into allegations regarding other out

of sites and tours like a jeep tour and that sort of thing charged to the federal government. >> that was just recently, wasn't it? >> in march, yes, of this year. >> also the investigation you've been overseeing with your hats off investigation revealed $400,000 was spent in region nine alone for that awards program. you found evidence of employees exchanging awards with each other. what control, if any, were in place to prevent this? >> well, the problem with hats off was there were little controls. gsa had a policy about all of these so-called reward stores, and they were not followed in region nine. we did the report, gave a draft report in may of 2011 as well as the interim question region's report. the report was final, and in terms of providing discipline or

adverse personnel action, the agency could always have taken adverse personnel action against the region nine, and the regional commissioner based on the hats off award and based on other issues, and we always said even with the interim regional, western regions conference report that the agency should take steps to prevent further waste to restrict the travel, restrict conferences, but they didn't. the only thing we said was with respect to western regions, we were still investigating and that a technical, adverse personnel action to end up in litigation was not a wise thing. everything else was permissible, and hats off was permissible. >> i know you began your investigation largely because of report of stolen items. wonder if you can tell us a little bit more of -- were you able to locate those? what happened to the stolen io

items? where and when did you find them? >> forty items reported stolen, subpoenaed apple. there were 115 ipads missing, and itunes were downloads issue and one of the ipods was located in mr. neeley's personal possession. the subpoena from apple told us his daughter was downloading itunes and that sort of thing. ultimately, there were just so few controls and so little restrictions preventing people from even going into the store and taking things out that we could not tell for sure who stole what from that store. >> my time expired. i yield back. >> mr. peck, my anger and

frustration have gotten to a boiling point. . . november 4th, we held a hearing on the l.a. courthouse for reagan requested the budget. december 7, written request once again on the administrative costs. february 9, we held another

hearing to requested dbs administrative cost once again. march 20, another written follow-up letter of the december 7 requests. march 28 and we went to the administrative cost information received in the gsa to let you know how lackey not very topline, one-page buzz. march 22nd had another hearing reagan we asked for administrative cuts in march 30th this year, we had a staff meeting on the administrative costs. april 13 we now send a letter to the new gsa director, mr. tangherlini. it's been a year and a half. we requested, sent a letter from the committee, demanded. why are you hiding the information from this committee and the american public like >> mr. chairman --

>> you're not hiding it? do not have the information like >> i don't have access to either of your letters demanding information or our response. what i recall is that in december, this past december the committee asked for detailed information about overhead cost of the pbs nationally, pbs headquarters in washington and the commissioner's office. i believe we responded to that in february or march. their number of conversations that we had among my staff. >> were there details of these conferences? >> sir, again, not having access to what you requested, i don't know if that was covered. i believe the requests were for spending on things like travel and training. >> did you give us any information on travel training quakes >> idolater effects as to what we gave you. i believe we gave you an answer. >> i don't have an economy either before me either but for the less you have been

requesting information. do not remember any of these request clicks it's over a dozen times i requested. you and i that had several conversations on cell phones where he discussed the issue that has to what is it going to take quakes you have to have a letter from the committee? do we have to pass a legislation demanding that we actually have a budget please click >> mr. chairman, i'm fairly certain the agency provided you with information about the pbs budget. we provided as a matter of course at add-on i would what exact demands for information you're talking about. >> list one page. obviously no information on the las vegas scandal or any other trips are planned. we will go through all the strips. several dozen trips across the nation, lavish expenses. this is just the tip of the iceberg. but none of the information is in there. so if it was a nightmare, why are you hiding it from us?

do you not have that information click >> mr. chairman, i don't have access to an information to gsa anymore. >> you were the top guy. did you have information that it should meet the budget for mr. neely for region nine for the western regional conference throughout the conference? >> mr. chairman, referring to a specific request for informational conferences? >> if you're the type that she is safe, how did she not know this is going on in the western region for all of the region? >> mr. chairman, allegations i've heard so far today has been limited to region nine and we have discussed when and how i became aware of the expenses of the western region's that over 2010. with respect to other conference spending and travel spending in general, we were always taken a look at what expenses were across the serious regions.

i was working at a level where the various large numbers across the nation, not specific conferences except for the extent that the national league planned conferences i did put under review in my office, partly in response to budget restrictions and partly in response to what we learned in may of 2011 about the western regions conference. >> you manage to filibuster long enough to get through my entire time here. let me reiterate one more time exactly what this committee has requested and then demanded. first of all, we asked for the number of employees of pbs as well as the number of authorized ftes, the amount of administrative costs with the breakdown of how much relates to the personnel costs, to the extent additional staff were high for purposes of the stimulus bill, how many staff

are hired and cost associated with additional personnel, breakdown of gsa occupied space for administrative purposes, including square footage and the extent, space and the annual lease costs. an explanation of which account, employee and administrative costs are coming from. we wanted a detailed budget for the last eight years, not just about the obama administration, but the bush administration as well. five years of a budget. how much money has been spent, in what areas come in what regions. transparency for the american public. that's not a republican or democrat issue. this is an american issue of knowing that the government is doing. he certainly went to my time here, but we have plenty of time today. i hope you a good breakfast because are going to have a long time to go through the spirit

take as long as one of his questions, but will continue to go through some. ms. norton. >> mr. miller, i think it would be important for the committee to know, as far as seymour or perhaps mr. and three for anyone who may know perhaps in region nine has in the past to other parts of the agency -- i think it is fair to say there is holding up over time something of culture or a regional power. but we need to know whether this culture has spread to other parts of the gsa or whether you believe it is essentially a region not an issue.

>> ms. norton, that is precisely why the unit is straighter has decided and is committed to doing a top department review so we can answer the question i've been intuitively, but then it are respectively. one of the purposes of the top to bottom review will be to answer the question. is this an isolated region nine issue or do we have the literature issue agencywide clicks i would leave that the review where we look at all facets of gsa will be able to answer the question. >> mr. miller, have you seen any evidence outside region nine and in light of what you see in region nine, are you looking at other parts of the gsa at this time? >> we are continuing investigations into other conferences in other districts. we are looking at least one other conference in another district, but region nine

employees say that spending was part of the culture in region nine. so we do have plenty of evidence regarding region nine. >> re: continuing the investigation region nine click >> yes, we are too many issues in region nine. other conferences and we are looking the other conferences outside region nine as well. >> this doone, your titlist chief financial officer to general services administration. the cfo for region nine apparently didn't speak up about the excessive spending. did any of his kids during a write off with the hershey reach your office click >> now, they did not.

>> while how could she be called the cfo for the gsa clicks i don't understand which are function is then. >> the regional cfo in the public building services report up through the regional commissioners of the service and do not report to the agency's chief financial officer. >> so you never know anything about the financial matters in the regions? who does know that i'm? >> the public buildings service is essential budget and financial management division in the headquarters of his and that is the office that allocates funds out to the various regions. >> you can see the difficulty i'm having with an agency whose hierarchy, whose structure is very difficult to understand.

do you believe that she was the cfo for the entire agency? but read the cfo of? >> i believe i was the cfo of the entire agents be, but unfortunately with the decentralized management structure place, it was difficult to have visibility into the financial operations. >> when did that happen quick >> it has been that way for a number of years. i join gsa and 2010 and it is my understanding has been decentralized for at least a number of years. >> is very cfo to public service building? >> there was a building in the service that had carried the title of cfo and i was very concerned about the decentralization because it caused a number of issues when one is trying to oversee financial operations of the agents be on this is one of the reasons the vast team

demonstrator tangherlini has taken this step very quickly. >> this issue, mr. chairman of how this agency is structured as a major or if were going to look at how we look at this in the future. already asked mr. entry in the moment she understood, it must be the moment because the conference was held in october, nearly november ms. brita asked for a report. do you think there would've been anyway for you you to have no or for the agency to have taken preventative action, the agency worked well with your ig when it came to action to penalize would've taken place in the penalties are still rolling out? but of course the taxpayers are

to know what i know, is there anything that could've been done to prevent this problem in the first place? >> under the decentralization -- decentralized structure would've been difficult for people in central office who found out. >> you can think the structure should be more centralized? >> and the acting administrator has taken steps already. >> mr. bartlett. >> mr. miller, you had said earlier he thought there was inappropriate behavior with vendors by employers of the gsa. what inappropriate behavior we possible illegal behavior click >> commerce than i do not want

to talk about criminal charges. we do have a referral to department of justice and so i would decline to answer. >> do you also believe -- we are talking about this conference and i know you said you're looking not other conferences around the country. but this would send a red flag that abuse could be more than just conferences. are we also looking throughout the entire agency click >> my office does look throughout the entire agency and we have had an important number of criminal prosecutions over the last couple of years. we set some individuals making counterfeit goods, selling counterfeit i.t. products to the united states. we sent them to federal prison. there was a chief of staff that i are agents of the fbi. we have had a number of property managers receiving bribes and kick backs. about 11 of them were sentenced

recently. so we have a number of criminal prosecutions. to answer coppersmith walsh's? precisely the ultimate deterrent to this kind of behavior is criminal prosecution. >> thank you. >> i hope that, mr. chairman. >> thank you, mr. bartlett. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i'm going to come back and go on this. i'm a cultural studies teacher by trade. so the idea of culture, learned and shared values and customs of a group of people i think would be very naïve to not see this and other regions. i'm deeply concerned by this decentralized accounting, which seems to me to go back to the heart of the lack of transparency, oversight, direct accountability, which makes it much much difficult and the culture just like the private or can be healthy and i'm not the business practices and healthy and i'm not the agencies.

this fun and getting very concerned about and i'm going to segue here because which region is kansas city in? >> six. >> so it's a region near? been excellent ig report that dates back to 2010 and i think i quote here, inspector general includes mary rooney's office providing misleading information committee initiates a credibility and audit of health and safety conditions has a concern that some are you aware of being reported again last night sharon w. u.s.a. about the health risks being reported by gsa members and it troubles me deeply what they squashed like bugs do when they brought this concern forward? apparently was big enough for the commission data she spent $234,000 of taxpayer money to get a pr firm? to respond to questions regarding toxic substance exposure instead of dealing with? mr. miller, is this out of your

realm of responsibility? how familiar are you with this? >> i've read the report. we did a report of federal building in kansas city, missouri at the request of senator bond and other senators, senator mccaskill and congressman cleaver. we did a report. we found that gsa did not manage the environmental risk of that facility well over the last 10 years in the last year they were taking steps to manage the environmental risk. historically they did not. >> the risk for the rest of bad pr? seems they spent more in the risk of bad pr than environmental risk. >> is a fair statement. our audit report was on the environmental risks. as soon as we announced our audit, they entered into a pr contract within 24 hours to handle pr, even though they had a pr staff they are.

>> is that legal to do that? >> in our opinion they violated just battle the procurement rules in hiring this pr firm. >> how long did it take to get that contract click >> taken me 18 months to get the outpatient clinic for southern minnesota for veterans. >> they had it done in 24 hours. the co was starting to do a competition to bid in the co was direct did not to do that bid. >> so basically no-bid contract for 234,002 cover-up. i won't use that term could we let the courts decide on the issues not being prodded to employees there who were trying to do a job, it can come at the civil servants trying to do a job to expose toxic substance in their opinion. >> we didn't get into how much toxic substances were there. we'll limit to how gsa manage the risk and what the gsa do when they got notice a problem.

so we are not scientists. we didn't get into the environmental. >> did you get into the whistleblowers or how the affected people were treated? were they squashed out? it appears to me they were not taken serious. the reason i bring this up as i think in the cultural studies teacher, not the lawyer it doesn't take a leap of imagination to see this is not just western region. now we have another region with a similar cultural disinterest and employs a desire to pr. >> as an ig before you make a general statement made to effect supporting it. we have facts in region nine. we do have this incident in kansas city. we did the report, hired the pr. there were hearings before senator mccaskill subcommittee and contract being an senator mccaskill tried to hold them accountable. we noticed a number of misstatements. we informed the committee of that you can misstatements by

gsa officials in the context of that hearing. >> deep the traveling again. we move at a snail's pace until it something with pr in an agency and were able to assure contract. we have cross between skeptical to cancerous cynicism and that doesn't make it any better. mr. chairman, i yield back. >> thank you, mr. waldman. who reported to who and who's accountable on this budget? ms. brita, who did mealy report to? everything is getting blamed on merely because he pleaded the fifth. >> just really had to reporting streams. one was the administrator in a separate reporting requirement to the public service. he had two people he reported to appear at >> there was a regional administrator, correct click >> at the time he was acting in both capacities, regional

administrator. >> in that position, who did a report to? reported to himself in one hand as administrator. >> is acting we shall administrator he also reported to seaweeds come as counsel to the administrator who handles all the regional streeters. so jeff reported to bath and then reported to seaweeds. chris cox is reported as administrator can then put put it to her and stop reporting. >> seekers back, mr.? tester no. >> yes. >> solicit direct report click >> in gsa organization chart, there is not a direct report between the regional commissioners to pbs commissioner. but as i said to all intents and purposes, the public service commissioner has a lot of command and control. >> he signed his letter of reprimand click >> yes, sir.

>> you do not feel the letter of reprimand went far enough? >> that's correct. >> what did you think should be done at the time? >> at the time we had not decided what we were going to do. it was still in draft. i felt the letter was two-week given what we knew already about western regional as well as the half of program. >> let me read your e-mail. you were not there and you're not in a position to judge the entirety of the conference. we will be not seek the standing two separate letters if i have anything to do it. that was bob peck's e-mail to you. >> that's right. and you're saying he did not

officially report to you and even that you sent a letter of reprimand to hand, you still recommended him to be upgraded so he could receive a bonus. >> your runner-up and i had to e-mail in front of me. >> at a much you mean by upgraded, but i did recommend a reading of four for its performance for the year, much of which is based on performance of his region on business metrics that we had in place. >> what did the performance review board recommend? >> i thought they recommended it for as well, but i don't have access to the information anymore. >> do not share that port? what did you recommend? >> there was acquitted out of the board we recommended it be held as a tree. he came in this innocent three and recommended he be held as a

three. >> a separate and offer martha johnson. i spoke about after the session is recommending the floor. yes i'm a bonus and he was also the acting ra forever and a day. but johnson. should he have received a bonus? >> the board did not recommend you get a bonus. >> should he receive a bonus, mr. pet? >> in retrospect, no, sir. >> what is change your mind? but you know now that she didn't know a year ago when you're recommending him for a bonus? >> principally that there were contract irregularities in the western regions conference and a pattern of conduct that mr. neely engaged in that i didn't know about the time. >> you know about at the time?

>> i did know about the travel, other conferences held in region nine. that is the difference. >> you are the public buildings commissioner pivot comes to public buildings are the top person. each of the different 11 regions report to you. you're supposed to be overseeing the budget and doing -- i know you give me a long-winded question i only have so much time. ms. doone, do not see all these budgets? >> my office does not see the budget for regional commissioners. >> should mr. peck boc office budgets? >> yes, he should. >> is there any reason those budgets would've been hidden from them? >> i don't know. >> any reason he should be hiding those budgets from the committee after requesting over a dozen times click >> not that i know of. >> any reason they should not have come to light over year and half ago an ig releases initial report?

>> i don't know. >> amount of time. mr. cummings. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to follow up on the chairman's questions. mr. brita -- i mean mr. peck, what is up with this? was happening that the budget? why can't you get that information to us? and don't come you don't have it now. i'm talking about when he did have access to it. >> mr. cummings, as to the detailed questions that chairman denham mentioned about personnel employment and those kinds of things, i believe that we first got a request in that detail from the committee to my memory last december and i believe we submitted it in late february or early march and we had to dig out the information, get it reviewed and approved an incentive to appear. i believe that was delivered.

>> now let me go back to questions i was asking you a few minutes ago in regard to your supervisory role over mr. neely. i think he said that she would've heard some complaints about him. is that right? >> yes, sir. >> tummy about the nature of those complaints. >> is generally not specific, but i heard that mr. neely and has had workers at these was regarded as someone who you didn't -- he didn't take well as people debated with 10 on his decisions. >> to that concern you? >> yes, sir and i discussed with mr. neely and more than one occasions. >> so did you hear about this on more than one occasion? >> yes, sir. >> did you hear about it from a number of employees? one, two, three? >> i actually heard it more from senior management peers of

mr. neely and employees in the region itself. >> and so, you know, i guess what is bothering me about your role and i listen to your testimony very carefully, it seems as if you play down your role in all of this. but as the immediate supervisor. you caught what everyone a call up when you're the man have the manners to supervisors and one is himself than the others to come as far as i'm concerned, you are a supervisor. it seems as if you, you know, would've had more hands on mr. neely. and you know, my mother was a former sharecropper come uses a son, you can have motion, commotion and the notion of results. and i don't want the series to be very emotional and then we don't get results. so i'm trying to get to what happened here.

i'm wondering if this structure which the person in your position should have had more authority and should have had access to more information or whether you didn't do your job, whether you fail to overlook mr. neely. then i wondered whether you felt intimidated by mr. neely because obviously he had a rain of threat going on around him and so help me with this. i mean, if you had to restructure that relationship, that is the kneeling position in your position, how would she restructure that? because mr. tangherlini is trying to make sense of this and i know he's going to do a great job. he's watching you, so give him your suggestion. >> mr. cummings, before i left the agency of stressing with ms. doone and far right and

doing what it mr. tangherlini is doing and providing more control over the financial operations of the region. that's one. to come out of regional commissioners unequivocally report directly to the pbs national commissioner. i was focused a lot on the business metrics for each of the regions, including how much space the government was occupying, how much we're spending on the scene. for working hard to get numbers down because they're in the billions of dollars they could exercise her savings. >> s. res. conferences, you would have absolutely nothing to say about a person your position? >> unless someone brought something to my attention about their something out of line, i would not generally be supervising where and when regional congresses or have been. >> very well. as i listen to you, i think he made it sound like he played a very lightweight role in this

answer, i must tell you that i think he played a major role and i'm sure we'll get to the bottom's up it at some point. without a unit that. >> thank you, mr. cummings. mr. peck, i went to remind you not a literature under a bit this authority been referred to as the department of justice. their criminal issues at hand here. and to play this lately that everything is mr. neely's fall, certainly has the entire committee puzzled. i went to bring back e-mails i was talking about. the e-mails from you to miss brita july of last year, the whole bonus november 5 of last year and a ig report, which came out in may of last year is an internal report. the conference happened in 2010.

miss brita very bravely stepped forward and brought this attention to the ig. the ig did a preliminary report, issued it to mr. miller. who did you submit this to? >> administrator johnson. >> who did the administrator give it to? >> miss brita as well and i'm not sure who she gave it to. i don't buy the exact nature of the list, but i believe she gave it to mr. peck. >> did you receive a copy of this? >> i'm sorry, say again what it is. >> did you receive a copy of the westerns region conference oig and i'm a report on investigation into potential fraud waste and abuse? >> i did, sir. >> did you receive it in a timely fashion's somewhere around may of last year? >> yes, sir. >> biscuits to a bigger question of the culture and gsa.

if somebody steps forward, a whistleblower stepped forward and alerted the ig to an issue in the ig came back and issued a report on investigation into potential fraud waste and abuse, why then would you have reduced you with miss brita and martha johnson and recommends somebody to get a bonus at the end of the year? >> mr. chairman, as i described from the bonus system is based on a number of performance metrics and i was looking at the performance of the region with respect to its major real estate responsibilities as well as mr. neely's problems at the conference. i will say again as i said in my testimony. >> this is quite a bit detail. you told suzanne brita you were not dare, not in a position to judge the entirety of the

conference. we will not be sending two separate letters to type anything to do with it. she sits on the committee. she recommended a three, no bonus. you came back and send an e-mail to martha johnson. martha johnson send e-mail to susan britta. i spoke about yesterday after the session. he's recommending for. yes on a bonus. he was also the acting ra forever and a day. there are criminal issues at stake here. this is all of the report you have a copy of the year ago period that you read. but mr. neely had a copy does and he read. and still continue to take many other trips, which will get into greater detail here shortly. many other trips with other criminal issues involved and you felt that it was important to go against committee staff and upgrade him and give him a bonus. that is a culture within an

agency that shows no matter what investigative report is going on, no matter what information or details we have, we're going to operate business as usual. so i don't think you can see turn blame everything on mr. neely when you're the one who recommended him for a raise after giving him a letter of reprimand. to have a response? >> mr. chairman, as i said, i take its possibility for everything that happened on my watch. as i said i was focused on performance among the regions on a lot of the match irks things to you and i discussed about reducing the amount of space the government occupies, trying to do a better job getting real estate -- excuse me, sir -- what i knew at the time and not report i believe deserve to be graded down to a four because some performance metrics alone

he would've gotten a higher number so we are creating down to a number than we had a conversation about whether it should be a three or four, yes, sir. >> i'm going to go through one page before i turn this over to mrs. norton. the preplanning meetings, dry runs. this goes to the overall culture of these expensive trips. back in 2009, march 9 to 11 was the first plan a trip with three stays at caesars palace for several attendees. march 30 through 31st, 2009. 13 attendees at the ritz-carlton resort. august 17 through 19, 2009, other attendees, 6000-dollar car. 65 attendees. march 8 through 12, 15 attendees back at the end resort.

june 30 through july 2nd, 8 attendees. in august 17 through 19, 20 attendees. and on several of these trips, mr. neely not only approved -- approved all of them, but on several of these trips, mr. neely went and brought his family and was well. many of these trips -- i should verify if not all, include the suites, 2500 square for a firm that you and mr. neely from a separate hotel rooms both enjoyed. and then october 12 through 15, 31 attendees, including mr. neely. nine trips before this lavish

conference? it was in this report to choose saw -- that she shared with mr. neely. he gave a copy to mr. neely, these official inside document, showed them what he did. you knew of it and then you still win against mrs. brita recommendation and upgraded him from a three to explore. how can you blame all this on mr. neely when you were the one who approved it? >> mr. chairman, i am not saying, as i made clear, i i.mr. neely's actions were wrong. i was clearly excessive. >> i'm not going to continue to beat up on the conference. i think mr. coming said mr. isaac is a good job talking about the conference yesterday. this is the overall culture and you would demand charge of the public lands area, which allowed all of these different trips. or going to go into many other

trips to gsa has gone through. public buildings fund has been used not only on the centrist the lavish las vegas vacation everything else on your watch. not only the western region district, but every other region. ms. norton. >> this question is not only for mr. peck -- i've got to ask all of these sitting at the table because you will live with the system. this puzzled us yesterday that the government reform hearing because i sit on that committee has filed, this notion about performance combat sounds very, very bureaucratic. but i can tell you one thing, that no one in the railroad -- i don't think in the air even,

which he would separate out conduct and performance so that one could in fact be seen as an excellent performer or good performer while engaged in conduct that the agency found on. say you have got to make me understand where the system comes from, if it is peculiar to gsa and whether you think it is different peculiar to gsa and whether you think it is different a bike to and whether you think it is different a bike to go right across the board. do you think it is a defensible system commit to bifurcate performance and conduct? >> no. and i think some of the ways in which there are impediments to impersonal management in conduct

and discipline have something to do with this, by which i made this comment there in the one hand every civil servant should have the right to fair play, the right to due process and disciplinary action. but it is sometimes a very cumbersome process and what one is able to do and not to do is not clear and i think that gets in the way of mixing the two. >> i've got to ask mr. miller. mr. miller, you are and expect their general. is this system found across the government are performance and conduct on two separate tracks? >> now, for so i'm not an expert in personal low, but i don't believe that distinction makes sense. if someone brought in a lot of visas, but they did it for stealing, but still about performance. you can't separate out the two.

the fact of the matter is that mr. neely got performance award of $9000 got a special afterword. >> it does seem to me that civil service, which is supposed to keep favoritism out of the picture, this almost encourages favoritism because you cannot we say cannot we say and i'm not assuming this happen here, you can davises based on what that your or the other. and of course, it runs counter to everything you teach a child and how the president handled the situation. mr. peck and ms. john then have extraordinary performance records in the federal government, but the conduct of the employees under them was laid down and so the president decided it seemed to me appropriately that he could not lie for kate even their years of

excellent performance. gnome is brita, you've been in the government a long time. you reagan chief of staff or very high in the general services administration before your record player for each of the congress. you've been brought back as political appointee. did you see this in the agency when you were there before? mr. miller didn't know of any such bifurcation elsewhere. given your time in the agency, i would like your view of the performance versus conduct way of viewing once employees and where it came from. >> i can tell you what we did and are performance poured out only most recently, but certainly in the mid-80s where the state, performance and conduct were always considered considered -- >> governor separate tracks? >> performance of the tablet. one has to perform.

you must consider performance combat overlain that is so for all conduct. >> yorba linda bifurcation took place? >> no, but the conduct as well as performance has to be a part of the overall valuation. >> if one is looking for what remedy would be bad. >> can ask you, mr. miller in light of what you testified about the aura of retaliation and the rest on whether he found he was any obstruction do your own investigation? >> we're looking into all sorts of the period we did not find any outright obstruction in. >> in fact, you really do put quite a bit on the record seems to me. >> bruegel to investigate and write this report and publish it without obstructions. >> thank you very much in thank

you, mr. chair. [inaudible conversations] >> mr. miller can we talk about the 17 day trip to the south is so thick 2012, this february, couple months ago. so in the last couple years, mr. neely has taken many trips to nap but come several trips on planning missions to las vegas. it all came in your ig report in may of last year. mrs. brita downgraded him on committee. mr. peck went ahead and gave him a bonus anyways.

and then your new report came out, which i've got to hand it to you, this report was pretty detailed. this would have been several, i say, committee hearings just in having your initial report a year ago. so your new report comes out. now it's all hands on deck. everybody in gsa knows apparently because we've handed this report out. we see members hand this report too many people beyond martha johnson. the administration is now aware of it. and in several other trips happen, including the strip, a 17 day trip to the south pacific, to hawaii, honolulu, guam, saipan. an internal e-mail trying to justify it. but here's the personal e-mail at the bottom. where his wife asks about the schedule. he tells her it's going to be a

birthday present for her. they're excited about the party. what can you tell us about this trip? was it justified clinics >> well, we were concerned about the trip. that's why we brought it up with the deputy administrator, susan brita and then to the administrator. >> if they did. >> who? >> ms. cox. >> i know i spoke directly to her. >> martha johnson know about it? >> i don't believe i did to write that. i think it is called with directly. >> see the concern obviously this has gone on for well over here and have you to ig reports out now. still at this point no one has been fired, put on administrative leave or resign. a year and half more of lavish spending, lavish trips. this trip has been do you want

begin are put in a position and you've argued that a whistleblower. i mean, i think you did your job by going to be ig in the first place to stay home on the second, i think we have a problem here. i mean, i congratulate you on that. any most people would've stopped there. and this continued to go on for the next year and a half and you brought it to a number of different peoples attention that this trip should go one. mr. miller, you've also made a recommendation. what was your recommendation? >> we were concerned this is anonymous seri trip in a. he saw the e-mail. he says it's a birthday gift for his wife. they quote the song, it's your party work in a party like it's your party. you've read the e-mails. we were very concerned about this. we were concerned about performance award given $9000. >> have you investigated the

strip and accent of the strip like >> we're currently investigating, yes. >> is not provided any investigation to this committee yet, other than the imo said directly correspond to it? >> we provided the e-mails, yes. >> you're not expenses? >> i'm not sure we provided that. we still work on expenses and in conjunction with the department of justice. >> mrs. neely or mr. neely pay for the expense of the spouse of travel? >> if you hold on i'll check with staff. we have no evidence at this time that the government paid. >> how often does this happen that you can take a family, through her 21st birthday party for your kid in the

swedes. how often does it happen that she was family travel, you have friends travel, have these expensive suites on the taxpayers dime? >> it seems like they have it backwards. they have to have a legitimate business reason. if it is necessary to travel to accomplish your goals -- >> would've run our ribbon-cutting suggest a seven to 10 t-shirt? >> i can't see how anyone can can know not. >> thank you. mr. waldman. >> idea that i thank you, mr. chairman. >> to have it backwards. if you have to travel is permissible if a family member states in your hotel room and you pay for the family members travel apart from that. that's okay.

but to plane travel for a birthday is totally impermissible. >> and one of these lavish suite, 2200 square-foot rooms that mr. peck and mr. neely each had come aversa 21st birthday party thrown for family and friends. can you discuss which he founded nonissue? >> as i recall, there is a 21st birthday of a family member of one of the event planners for pbs and the location folders i believe according to testimony, the location solvers found a hotel in las vegas for that family or in the party and helps him arrange the party and they have a party in las vegas and make a special room rates arranged by the location solvers.

is that the event you were referring to? >> yes, that was one of the nine trips prior to the las vegas vacation? >> that was a separate trip. there were nine trips i guess planning for the western region conference and maybe you are thinking the state on an extra day and tried to get the special government rate that is not available for the swedes and they tried to get that special rate. ultimately they could not get the special rate and a charge to balance of the federal government. >> that was the roughly thousand dollars -- >> roughly that. >> said the government paid for the room? >> yes.

>> gsa is the landlord of all of our public meetings. is there any reason that gsa -- all agencies of government -- is there any lack of space that we have right now i would not allow all agencies of government to hold some type of conference in a public building quiet >> i think there's plenty of space in public holding sweat conferences. this particular conference was to showcase talent, theatrical talent as well as other talented gsa employees. you can draw your own opinion as to whether it was necessary in the first place. >> misgiving, we've been asking for financial administration and obviously you can see my frustration. does seem like gsa is stonewalling us for quite some time.

why is it taking so long to get this basic information quakes >> i can't answer that i can tell you have your most recent request that letter you sent to acting in a straighter tangherlini an eye out this is working on many there. >> is there recently the 200% increase in the commissioner's budget? >> i can answer that question because i don't have the numbers you're referring to. >> has there been an increase in the pbs budget? >> yes, there has been. >> a brick in your estimation? >> it has been gone up over the past several years and as a result of an increase in fte as well as costs in utilities and fields in the administrative costs are your referring to. >> federal budget has gone up? >> i don't know. >> had he not know? >> that information is a public

service. >> it's not managed. mr. peck isn't aware of it as well. this gsa had the authority of the funds from federal building on the web >> the money stays within the federal building fund. >> this gsa move money from the fund? >> not that i'm aware of. >> what is your relationship with the regional cfos and how are you ensuring that their authority is not underminded at the regional level? >> i have no authority with the regional cfos until the acting administrator tangherlini has realigned the relationship. >> you've been there for a while. did you not a relationship before? >> now.

>> zingy procedure being put in place? >> yes, that's correct. >> mr. miller, did you learn further investigation i regional office can go so far over budget without anyone holding them accountable? >> yes, region nine is a good example of that. if i could just correct something, the special work was $2000 this year, not three that i sat on the performance award was $9000. >> thank you. ms. norton. >> mr. neely apparently figures as essential kerry during the stroma. i've been trying to figure out how he became so powerful if i may use that word. mr. neely is not a political appointee. is that correct? is mr. neely political appointee? >> no, he is career ses. >> said this is a courier civil

servant, not a political appointee who was acting regional administrator for a very long time. i believe 39. could i ask you, mr. miller, you miss brita in playing the role i regional administrator front-end and purposes in pbs commissioner and affect was mr. neely reporting from one level as himself to another level lessons of with no reporting above him. >> with his acting regional administrator, its regional

commissioner pbs in one sense would report of the fact regional and a straighter. theoretically pbs regional commissioner would report to the central office pbs commissioner into the deputy administrator andy at a straighter. >> so he was supporting in his commission are all through some another chain of command to mr. peck? in his acting regional administration will, he was doing what? >> he was reporting to steve lee, senior counsel to the administrator. >> which is like reporting to the administrator? >> directly reporting -- >> yet a chain of command at

steve reported to the administrator. >> what did that lead to? or with airports to whoever steve lee says to headquarters? and disco as i can administrator >> when jeff reported to steve leeds? >> whatever conversations he's received, i was not proud of that reporting chain. >> i'm simply trying to understand whether or not mr. neely was to himself when he held these two rows or whether there is any coherent reporting authority who was in charge here. >> certainly on paper there is a chain of command