issue. under u.s. law, wouldn't you say that fair use option can address the issue all right. >> guest: there's a nice intersection between -- >> yeah. >> that's right. i mean on youtube, you when content i.d. detects a match, the content owner can ask for that to be blocked. that's why your friend is seeing things not upload. the rights holder can send a take down notice formally if they believe infringing. the user has a counter notice. it's a complicated system. but it's certainly offers more than a system that was simply prohibited. which frankly, a lot of copyright laws around the world leave no room for that kind of creativity at all. which is part of the reason why, i think in many ways, the united states now perhaps canada, there

are a number of countries. israel. a lot of this creativity at least has room in the systems. interestingly, the uk completed a big study lead bay professor that described how they feel the copyrights law might need to change in order to coonld that kind of creativity. there is in some ways it may not be perfect the united states is a little bit -- :

all companies tried to do this. of number all-out parity. >> that brings us to invent ago figure coming by. >> they give for coming by. [applause] >> next time we will reverse.

>> only if you write the book for me. >> let's get started. good evening.

welcome to the international spy museum. i am peter earnest and delighted to have you here. it will be stipulating. i will introduce david frum, our moderator and he will introduce the speakers' her as a courtesy, please turn off your cellphones and what ever. particularly this evening we are streaming live cnn also we are on bookkeeper go and think the subject matter is extraordinarily interesting for a number of reasons. intelligence is open source reporting and because that gets more difficult because

of the proliferation, also the internet. i hope our two speakers will help us sort that out. our moderator. >> host: -- david frum is a cnn contributor. he has done six books the most recent called the comeback. he has regular columns cnn.com, and canada is national post. special assistant to president bush 2001 through 2002. his first book 1954, was described the smartest book written from the inside of the movement party is from canada with his degrees from

yale and graduated, the from harvard as president of the federalist society. please help me to welcome, let me mention first the books by the two speakers "among the truthers" and "9-11 synthetic terror" will be available in the back. bothers will remain to sign their books. please help me welcome david frum. [applause] >> you omitted one fact ivan avid fan of the spy museum and i have led many to words. you should make a point* to be here more often.

also a marvelous illustrator of the laws of bureaucracy. soon after the opening of the museum the caa most important and of the committee fbi decided they needed a museum so there is now a lot and order museum. jonathan kay is my editor and the author of "among the truthers." i have not had the pleasure of meeting webster tarpley before today. our topic tonight is conspiracy theories. we have an analyst and a practitioner. so where does the tendency come from? how do we cope with it?

we see patterns, we look at gm on the bread and see human face. we see the man in the moon. it can produce results that are entertaining or sinister. jon that then led us on an amazing two were in "among the truthers" and we have some of that today. i have great confidence while many of us are foolish not the species is wise back out at every time there are wild allegations and constrained away i have no doubt that is the out, the process we will start with

jonathan k then continue with webster tarpley. [applause] >> thank you very much. i admire david's confidence the truth will e merge. looking at the comments i had less faith of the human capacity for reason. i imagine we have seen the minds in the audience. david said humans are pattern seeking creatures. that is the theme of my book. human can handle good and evil but not chaos. most early efforts with religion would impose of moral order on the universe.

explaining why bad things happen to good people. that is why monotheistic religions are so popular. no matter how o random more miserable there is an explanation that fits into a cosmic pattern even if we cannot recognize. conspiracy theories do not supply god. but they do valuable, the demons. when you answer the question why do bad things happen to good people, a terrorism, financial crisis, or war, demons are useful things to have. if you have a conspiracy theory, given name, you have

answers of boris or bankruptcy but because of the muslims or a zionist or the new world order. the identity of the bill -- of the bill and this beside the point*. they have a single unitary address. although it could be a dark place like a smoke-filled room in a sense good news comes out of it. if evo has a name or address then we can fight it whether george bush or the united nations. we can dedicate our lives to tell other people the truth.

this becomes liberating and utopia in. when the truth is known the world is a better place. when interviewing webster tarpley i interviewed a wide array of conspiracy theorist. what do believe? what is your theory of 9/11 or how obama became president or pharmaceutical companies conspire against us. the footage of crisis was created. it was a dead end to. when you ask the open-ended question you could sit there eight hours.

they tend to be technical. i am sorry to 19 only has 20 minutes. he could speak for hours. it is easier for me. i will tell you all that i know. [laughter] talking to conspiracy theorist of 9/11 i get it technical narrative the twin towers well, the metallurgical properties of the beams and then i started to ask another question. the basis of my book. when did you start believing 9/11 was inside job or brock obama's presidency was illegitimate? the answers were more interesting. the root of the issue when did you lose your faith in the narrative told you by

the government and the media? when did you believe the reality told by the media is a lie? with 9/11, most people who joined the cheers movement did not join in 2001 but 2003 in the spring and summer. when they heard there was no weapons of mass destruction and iraq, if the government lied about that, what else. when they ask that question and it becomes the guiding question of their life, they can go into some dark rabbit holes. i am a journalist. unless you do ask there is no investigative journalism but only press releases.

one thing that they always like to is a religious faith been you are full-time conspiracy theorist. 9/11 intended to be 2003 when i talk to barack obama conspiracy theorist it is about the time he became president the idea america a electing a liberal democrat caused the political faith to shatter. they reckon pence to the presidency must be a legitimate. many devoted their life to devoting he is a legitimate. chapter one of my book of serbia it ancestry he was

radicalized 1999 he sought damages of the nato warplanes dropping bombs on belgrade. the narrative from the media was serbians were causing albanians. he thought it was international conspiracy than 9/11 he sought the offense through the same day. and there was a conspiracy against serbia then this is the inside job. you see this over and over. once they think their lied to it collars all perception for subsequent events. the people from jfk arad never stop to see it as a conspiracy. are their real conspiracies?

of course. real-life conspiracies tend to be small and primarily about money and sacks. classic example was a sponsorships gandalf. it was canada's watergate small-scale trying to buy boats in quebec quickly unraveled everyone involved was identified. that is how they work because most people are incompetent in government. watergate was another example that took place on a small scale. much larger and a sinister

type are beyond the power even if they wanted to because they lack the ability to do that secretly. [laughter] a lot of people have great faith of our leaders. but if you are in syria somebody says the government is conspiring to kill us. that is not a barry. if they are firing shells it is not a theory that the government is trying to kill you. i make that there wreak clear. it is a close society the government controls the levers. government wants to conspire they can do that.

that is difficult to do in western society because we have the independent media. [laughter] when i give a speech in a mention the media i always get laugh lines. i wish those people to be at any media office to see how many used to be on the payroll and search and nobody. they truly are independent they have been fired. some of the idea that i as an editor can control the media are practicing journalist knows that is not true. if 9/11 were an inside job but we would have 100,000 american journalist trying

to win the pulitzer prize to find the truth. if barack obama was born wherever they say, you could get the price by doing it. because then you could discredit the g.o.p.. things function differently lourdes conspiracies are possible and open societies. does anybody know who lenae williams is? profiled on "the daily beast" she worked for the cia.

iraq, spike camp, she learned the art but had a falling out they thought she was mentally unstable. as a result she no longer works for the cia but she started to treat about her experience. on twitter you'll see her talking about secret stuff how is it a disgruntled employee tweet on society and not be disclosed? anything wikileaks anything about the 9/11 inside job? there you go. one more example.

conspiracies are dark place. what is somebody said lead stage a coup. a mention this because it is the theme. the book just came out. it was all the sophisticated trade and it is a fascinating story about a general. back in his day he you was the:. somebody knocked on the door it was the emissary from the

military industrial complex. with a big checkbook they went to smedley butler said the npr is not working out to we want to rescue it. are you e and? i was thinking this is the conspiracy theorist what do you think smedley butler did? he went to the media. they're trying to bribe me. congressional investigation everybody was disgraced. when people say let's create a fictitious government. mussolini used to be respected 1934. fast forward 2001. if he repeated that 100

times you cannot blow up the world trade center with one guy. you go to 100 smedley butler. we have a fictitious oligarch bleak -- oligopoly. who would not run? they run somewhere. or open the twitter account to keep this under wraps is preposterous which is why i am skeptical. why does this matter? why did you write a book? let the people have their fun. i now think it is just internet stuff. i think at democracy is ungovernable.

not just opinions. but in the alternative world by the board in kenya a muslim look been to put to sharia on the united states or 9/11 was an inside job, it is impossible to have consensus. how could we have a consensus or argument about obamacare of people think he is a secret agent? this is about the political future of america so they can agree on the events in american history. with that i conclude by presentation.

thank you. [applause] >> webster tarpley will speak with the video presentation that is what we're not sitting on the stand. 83 remarks i would now like him to come up and present his version of reality. [applause] can i be awarded the five minutes left over? [laughter] no conspiracy involved.

here is my answer to jonathan k.. we have to think back to the tremendous abuse of the 9/11 myth. in the bush white house the answer was 9/11. deficit? 9/11. environment? 9/11. follow up? guiliani for president campaign verb comment now, 9/11. an attempt to take over the united states government. we have to be alerted to bet danger of the mccarthy type of thinking which had to for the dissidents. it does take the soviet method to put them in the

category of the mental reality -- mentally ill. what about this reality? in particular right now is more avoidance a demonstration five years ago. be aware another fake 9/11 to new guy ran. we have been through enough so it should not surprise us. i have a low opinion i explain the three philosophical schools but have different reasons also without going into details i will talk about david wrapper to pressure his

scorn for rush limbaugh although william buckley -- buckley was working for him. i am not from phnom chomsky or how words in because he hated civilization. known chomsky had good truth. adbusters have seven ties the occupied movement from within. and its potential. disagreements are numerous but the goal is not those confined conspiracies if there was are not. anyone who says everything is a conspiracy, that is all, that is paranoia up.

however looking at objective reality within that reality conspiracies may arise. if we faint of oligarchy and tyranny and the mob we can see the tyrants stolid or hiller does not have a conspiracy. they give orders. the spontaneous mob not a conspiracy but free-for-all. but in the middle the oligarch a goal situation that we live than, that is where conspiracies flourish we now live in the post occupy world it is now a

mainstream concept there is a change in the spirit of the age. also in the discourse the violent clash made possible was the strength of the roman republic and i am will lead in the fight to him to rethink his scholarship. it did the political situation we don't have a countervailing force to say no, then maybe the academy can do that. going back to 1978 of former member of the government to

write about the morrow associate -- assassination. mr. kay points out i am still interested in the attempt to kill president reagan. 31 years ago i am afraid it this point* he tries to the bout bush's son was dying with the suspect's brother. neil bush silverado having dinner with scott hinckley of the would-be killer of the president. vice president confirms and neil bush conceded they were going to meet. what does this mean?

that is the appearance of a conflict of interest. [laughter] when the father is president of the united states. and government of laws this was not a huge scandal? talk about conspiracy i find it if this if saying it is mainstream because 71 percent have a positive view. i think that is when you were a on dangerous ground. the hindu caste system? what will they say. ahead of the dues this is

building number seven over here and she is telling you the 47 storey building had collapsed but she does not see that this of building and it is still there. 23 minutes ahead of the news. this is why people say they are servants. george w. bush went to the united nations we should never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories. another view, mr. kay leaves out the two american revolutions. including the civil war was a revolution on steroids.

distinguished 1967 winning the prize in history saying the unifying feature of the entire generation was to enslave the colony's starting with edmund burke and talks about the liberation. thomas jefferson talks about a planned and john adams relies to be quite outspoken it was secret to and dark and deep said john adams. something god for helping

them to discover the plot think gain god is a conspiracy theorist. the declaration of independence all long train of abuses a design to reduce the call the days to despotism. abraham lincoln and because of the spot resolution the regime attacking the mexican ensign u.s. territory. shall be the spot. he refused to except the official version which was used for the made war of his time.

most famous speech is the house divided speech talking about you can then, by being -- arriving at a construction site for those to fit together. we cannot know the we have to think it is impossible not to believe they were together abraham they did conspiracy theorist is paranoid it does not stop there running on a platform from bullion's a word called the slave power conspiracy alternately you can go with jefferson and add them

seward which is the view of the notion did no bite and so forth this idiocy choice. also of the question of paranoia a. if you look at my book you will see i have will hold chapter schizophrenia the inability to integrate the various parts of the mind is at work. looking at the s.a. of reunification discussing the police concept it is the

evil intent of a perpetrator and also what couch's this but vault her coming at the beginning in the end is part of rationalism keep flying some of it will stick. this is not my brand of rationalism. my theory of state-sponsored terrorism the professionals, the technicians this is what you see the police agents lee harvey oswald, a new one in france last week but for the

caa it is not shown this character was part of the shooting but now he is good and bad. a private network will to wall street and the evidence is massive. they can make planes crashed into buildings don't forget the private military firm the command center and i am afraid without the brainwashed world this would not work of resources are

through the drills. you can hope to have a spanish reaction in the way the spanish people when there were bombs in the subway the spanish people said no. we don't believe your story. unlike most of the other writers i tried to tell you what happened. i know that is a false flag designed to of the show the war of civilization. afghanistan, but somalia, but again negative, libya, i cannot

keep up and coming from samuel huntington the basis is 46 drills and exercises. the fifth edition is available in the back i will show you what they are. the greatest density in history and build-up of 22 drills on the morning of 9/11 the myth was prepared that executed by a drill to employ government resources surreptitiously that other people may interfere. the concept is the drill

goes live by members of the road network here is one of them. here is the complete write-up. the time is so sure i cannot even read them off but here is the list. drills in the 1990's, preparation, how could condoleeza rice planes would go into buildings? absurd. afghan war. drilled in day. new york city plane goes

into building here is the object that hit the pentagon. something else. these first responders we can debate. the hijack drilled then the fbi anti-terrorist team is taken out of the picture. to take as many planes as possible some go to the four corners of the world, nevada. the national reconnaissance office crashing planes into buildings. let me push through.

the russians say we don't want you in afghanistan. have a deterrent there could be a plan in may have this still on the drawing board. look at my work. that could you should is the airforce. a hijacking should that be for another hour. these tapes were proof there was perjury if you believe that came hamilton report says, but they don't.

i have to the old video clips. the biggest single piece of evidence here is the warning that came to bush. the press briefing the next day. the president condemns the attack saying a threat to the security. finally, the president says freedom and democracy are under attack. in this case we haven't ration the warehouse and

airforce one ross of the intended targets this will take time and resolve. >> the idea of a threat to tear force one. >> white house officials said from the secret service airforce one was on the target list why did you put credence into that? in the lobby area. >> media threats were received that came in with codeword knowledge of where

it was located. this shows the coup d'etat was in progress. telling bush what they wanted him to do. i don't believe george bush should dictate the new any more. it is an outside event designed to push bush on television to say outcry at and been lauded and afghanistan to start the troops and start the war of civilizations. and now we will have to wait for another time. [applause] >> this conspiracy is to

laments to fit into 20 minutes. we now have the two panelist on this stage. please keep your questions brief. i know it is difficult to frame into a sentence but please make the effort. we appreciate it. i will start in the back. >> assuming by civilizations' you bent the war of two camps of middle

east ideals would use day this started with the cold war how is this a motive for the government to conspire to attack the world trade center? >> the afghan events through the '80s were a matter of mobilize eight al qaeda with the help of former secretary of defense gates and that was used against the soviets teaching us an action that is the power with the obama

administration is to use the said so the raise as mercenaries on the field. the problem they had this very aggressive people were weighty they found they could not get planted to do much except when he was weekend to start the ball made of serbia. if you look at the behavior of your it -- young george bush holding down the spy plane look at "the national review" and foreign policy

thought bush did not use the incident to get something going. people believe to war is the answer from domination and did not get that from bush. to shock congress and media and other institutions had to be shocked into the titanic adventure that is what 9/11 did. >> thank you for the opportunity.

three hours is not enough but the three biggest terrorist organizations are caa, assad and mi6. but to denigrate what we talk about, osama bin not dead may -- mitt the station chief in dubai documented by this paper. , lucky mehta with pentagon generals reported by fox news. why is the meeting in secret at the pentagon? it shows and also the bin laden was the assets. the axis a deal is washington d.c., tel aviv and london.

[applause] >> aground rojas to be questions and compression >> given the idea the theory is useful only if also viable what threshold of evidence to except that 9/11 was not an inside job? >> >> i don't pay this is meaningful that does not belong to this analysis. i will portray of little bit but take a look a devaluate but parazynski who countered mainstream has a book called of the grand chessboard if

you look at afghanistan it is the key to pakistan and the hub of duration the hub of duration future if the structure if you want to build of rail line from new delhi to berlin and pass to go through afghanistan. but the notion of the shock the atmosphere and of crisis and hysteria still groaning under the impact. it becomes institutionalized >> afghan is the key to everything although neil

bush is in charge of the conspiracy. [laughter] >> if i could respond. the question of what evidence they accept is interesting because it helps to define what the theory is. you can never went argument because they will expand this theory to swallow new evidence if i have a debate to say the commission supports my position that then they say it is written by bush lackeys. forget that. national institute standard report. how could you mentioned that? they are losers. don't get me started on the media.

the conspiracy continues to grow. after one hour you have swallowed all of the world's journalists, the judiciary judiciary, the dependent researchers, who is left? so there is no evidence they will except because the track swallows all evidence that is the definition. >> my answer to that who is the conspiracy? the on the wake of the commission paid and hamilton road a book without

precedent say we were lied to by norad and airforce officers. >> and they brief heard that portion to the inspector general who followed it up it was clearly specified. that particular piece was introduced to make them look more competent but they were less competent which goes against the grain. >> calling for a show of hands how many are broadly sympathetic to 9/11? and webster tarpley? >> three quarters? how many people don't believe president obama was

born in the united states? [inaudible conversations] do they overlap? is it msnbc and fox? there were some hands. who doubts the obama osbourne in the united states? this is the 9/11 truth crowd. not obama's socialist crowd. >> the man in the yellow tie. >> i have the microphone now. >> no.

that is building seven. . . aid i am a little bit told -- >> do you have a question? >> the second on mr. kay, i don't know if there is here some

charge for the conspiracy theorists or do people. i was surprised by the banality of your presentation -- [inaudible] there is no comparison to what you said. if i ask you when the flag was burned at the beginning of the era in the nazi movement, if someone in germany had said this was a conspiracy, according to you, to your standpoint, if someone has power, or some form of official power, it cannot be

doubted. >> okay, i am happy to answer that. as i quite clearly stated in my banality is an patient if you live in a closed society the example i gave -- >> i didn't say closed society. speier example with syria. excuse me. if you have a question, ice assume you wanted answered. the example i gave was syria which of course is a closed society, it's not a free society and they said quite clearly amongst the banality that in a society such as that if someone says the government is trying to kill you and if someone says the government has entered into a murderous conspiracy against its citizens that is probably true because it happens in closed societies such as for instance bashar assad's syria or to raise your example nazi germany. by the way when i was covering the republican election campaign in new hampshire i noticed that all the town hall meetings when that women or the man with a

microphone, they always kept their hand on the mic and mike and i think we figured out why. >> i would just say in terms of open society in a closed society, we now have the obama administration. the obama constriction claims the right to kill any american citizen anywhere in the world based on a purely administered a decision by bureaucrats. the obama claims the right to send any to guantánamo bay to be tortured basically until the end of time. it could be objected that these powers as far as we know are not widely exercised yet, but this complacent gear that we are an open society and we are immune from all of those evil abuses i think is a dangerous kind of complacency and i would warn against the slippery slope that needs measures especially if

popular vigilance is not widely awake. these liberties can -- >> i agree. [applause] >> i wanted to comment on something that mr. kay said. you said i think in the very beginning you said conspiracy theory was an attempt to name the team and to whatever the evil was. my only question regarding that would be this and that also the attempt of the official version of 9/11 to put a face to what was being perpetrated, so when somebody like dr. tarpley or anybody else says that you know, conspiracy theory is really conspiracies, aren't they both sides of the conspiracy that bin laden was involved in the conspiracy and if i could have one quick follow up and relation to what mr. frum said. conspiracy theories and the truth being stranger time. i recently had read in 1969, 85%

of people doubted any conspiracy theory regarding jfk. today, 85% believe it was some kind of conspiracy related to jfk so wouldn't be fair to say that history has shown quite the opposite that instead of conspiracy theories fallen away in fact they become more and more validated? [applause] speier first question i think it's it is a good one. when you say well, the first question was is it not the case that the official version of events is in some way related to a conspiracy and you are saying 19 arabs got on planes and under orders from osama bin laden attacked the united states. look, there is the crime of conspiracy in u.s. criminal law for a reason. sometimes people enter into a very real conspiracy. what real-life conspiracies tend to be limited criminal enterprises and they tend to be patched by locals, osama bin

laden was essentially a local actor using modern technology to impose death thousands of miles away. what conspiracy theories do, what i say my book is they tend to take people like osama bin laden and 100 people like him and put him in a sort of flowchart and show that they are all controlled by the same, oligarchy is a term that webster tarpley uses in his book. you would have bush and the cia and osama bin laden and all these factors seemingly acting in concert. that is what conspiracy theory is. i'm not saying that these did not happen. they happened as a result of what we could call conspiracy. it happens but it tends to be a long way limited than the overarching conspiracy theories that you have her in about an "9/11 synthetic terror." >> sir on the side and then you with your hand that. >> i have a question for

mr. kay. seems like a mainline motivation for september 11 was the jihad and the alternative conspiracy theories are us-based inside jobs but i wondered about major communist countries, whether or not there could be a conspiracy initially there because they provide weapons for these jihadist groups and also there have been mysterious explosions around 1990 and 2000 major communist countries and they also i think a better ability to penetrate airspace. do you think after the so-called end of the war, cold war, that the spies just disappeared or do you think they could have done something like that? >> well, one thing that america has gotten pretty good at during the cold war was determining when there was russian infiltration, and one thing about the russians is when they take someone side, if you look at the current russian support of the assad regime in syria, there is no subtlety to it. they are taking assad's side and

a clear way so i don't think that would be the modus operandi. also going back to what david frum was saying about afghanistan, there was one area of the world where the united states was interested in building a railway, that would be it. the reason i say that is because the united states hasn't amazing opportunity to control afghanistan is but one of. the united states had afghanistan all to itself in this huge network of mujahideen, the soviets were gone. if they wanted to stick around it was theirs for the taking. if you believe the 9/11 commission report is propaganda and you read it you'll see that one of the big criticisms of the u.s. government was that they completely neglected afghanistan in the 1990s and they did this during the clinton era and they did this in a republican and democratic institution. if they really wanted to build those were away and put in this pipeline it would have been the

easiest thing in the world to do. >> let me get the men in blue. he has been very patient. >> hi. a question for mr. kay. how do you explain operational -- wasn't declassified until spring 2001 by james bamford. that is the first question. second question how do you explain alex jonassen july 2001 launching operation government here in predicting that the government was going to stage attacks in new york city and washington and blame it on osama bin laden? [applause] and the third question, one more question. how many articles have you done about -- and its agenda? thank you. >> yes, i have been positioned my coverage but i do talk about it in the book. in terms of alex jones, it is actually quite true and i mentioned this in my book. it's quite true that on alex

jones' syndicated radio show before the 9/11 attacks alex jones did tell people that there was going to be an attack on the united states. i think he might've mentioned new york and that it was going to be used as pretext to launch wars of conquest. the problem with that is alex jones does that 17 times every day. alex jones runs a completely paranoid radio show and i don't know if mr. tarpley would agree with me. >> i can't speak for alex jones. >> in terms of northwood, operation northwood, northwoods is completely real historical phenomenon basically the joint chiefs of staff came to jfk and they said hey we have this great operation we have designed a pretext to attack castro. what we are going to do, few variations would basically but basically what they were going to shoot down a plane near cuban airspace and blame it on the

cubans, your classic operation. jfk basically said, are you guys? this is stupid and it will be disclosed immediately, the dumbest thing in the world and they sent them packing which is what any president would do in an open society where the president realizes it would be disclosed. it at what happened in nazi germany and it wouldn't happen in syria because they are they have an information flow. >> mr. tarpley. >> on northwood, couple of thing on northwoods. the first conversation of january 2003 where bush says we should paint an airplane with united nations colors, send it over and saddam will shoot it down and then we have our -- that is number one in the second one was northwoods is the guy who signed it went on to europe and as far as i can see founded alazio, the state on operation for which so many terrorist

groups have been spawned and the other thing of course is the northwoods really was carried out. is a variation on the theme of northwoods. i wouldn't be too complacent about that. we should -- he gave a payment of $65 billion to the taliban to pay their entire payroll for the first half of 2001 and the taliban were ideal because they kept everybody out. the hated iranians, hated the russians, hated everybody and it was perfect. i propose we change gears. i feel we are not doing justice to the other side of mr. kay's argument which is his concern is why do people not believe in institutions? why is it that the official doctrine of so many institutions is falling flat? why are all these institutions discredited for want of a better word? wire hegemonic institutions no longer hegemonic? in? in a democracy we deal with something called you dynamic

legitimization. for democratic government like ours, you have got to deliver the goods or good means economic progress. you have got to deliver jobs. you've got to deliver rising standards of living, full employment. the record we have over 40 years is a decline of two-thirds in the standard of living. the other thing we have got is these endless wars, meaningless wars that don't enjoy popular support. they are predicated on political assassinations with kennedy and/or false flag events and i would suggest we ought to look at the broader reality around just this narrow conspiracy yes or no theme. look at the discrediting of the institutions by their own behavior and what might, what might be the remedy. i have to tell you my political agitation goes in the directions of the new deal, the policies for franklin d. roosevelt that were returned to policies that have served us well in the past, turning away from the extreme

austrian libertarian views of ron paul, turning away from the methods that have failed us, turning away from the malfusian methods of the radical ecologist to dominate so much of the democratic party. in other words the reason people don't believe government, they don't believe medicine. the academy, all of these institutions are failing. they don't deliver the goods. they're lacking in legitimization because they don't deliver what people expect and i would suggest rather than trying to repress opinion with curriculum reforms are other things, let's look at the broader picture in society and what can actually be done there because it seems to me that is where it should be made. [applause] >> a very interesting point and i wonder if i could ask for another show of hands? >> no. [laughter] >> i am sorry. no, we have some pushback of

human ignorance he. how many people are in this room -- but you don't have to answer but i'm just curious. how many people in this room some way or another doubt official modern medicine and use alternative methods? you just raised the question. how many people use herbal methods or other kinds of informal treatment? about half. that's interesting. that's interesting. in the middle row, the lady. >> yeah, jonathan. you i am sure in your research for the book you did a thorough analysis of all the evidence proving that 9/11 was an inside job and found it wanting.

i am curious if you would be put in in the position to have to argue for that side would you consider to be the most compelling evidence that 9/11 was an inside job and why do you find it wanting? >> that's a good question. i actually became quite fascinated with the technical side of the accusation that 9/11 was an inside job. in my former life i was an engineer, specializing in aerodynamics and as a result of became extremely intrigued by the technical aspects of the argument about how the wtc one and 207. i read the reports with interest. and that side of the debate actually was quite fascinating, even before the conspiracy theory. my background gave me a pronounced interest in that. in terms of the actual evidence that 9/11 was an inside job,

because i believe in the conventional account, i don't see any thing that is particularly compelling. the one piece of evidence that i have always seen as useful from a propaganda point of view for 9/11 conspiracy theorist is the video of wtc seven falling and that is because the video clip they show always is carefully selected to show the undamaged side of the building so people seeing it will think oh that was a controlled demolition. when you see the other side of the building you see the uncontrolled fires that were reaching for eight hours. you become much more skeptical so in terms of a propaganda point of view i think the carefully selected footage of wtc seven collapse is useful to the conspiracy theorist but a new way convincing to anybody who delves into it. >> just in front of the pillar there the man and the jacket.

>> my question is for jonathan kay and it may or may not be a yes or no question, so no pressure. after watching your presentation i can see that you are someone who is at least open to the potential of like true conspiracy is an actual phenomenon. facts are facts, black is black, white is white. i was just wondering if you are all a were and again yes or no, no pressure, of the true conspiracy of the forged papal prayer, the forged papal prayer in the january 1965 issue of "commentary" magazine and if you don't understand. it might've been before your time. but yeah. thanks. >> if you're asking about jfk -- i know nothing about "commentary" magazine. spewed a man with a camera here,

the man who has been filming us with the camera. i hope you have a signed permission slip. >> i am a philosopher by trade and you say mr. kay that the meaning is imposed upon reality by humans. you then went on to say that conspiracy theorists believed in alternative factual realities. you then went on to say that we have to have this dialogue in some sense to agree on basic facts. a debate predisposes logic as i'm sure you know, but those two claims can't coexist. you can't have meaning created by humans and then turn around and say that we have to agree on basic facts. so as a basic contradiction of claims, so i think the direction

of dr. tarpley was going was a little bit more in the direction we needed to go, the direction of navy the problem here is that we are not actually looking at objective reality and the facts. do you see what i'm saying? >> let me answer the question if i may in a slightly broader way. i will answer by saying that the process of writing the book made me much more skeptical than i once was that rational debate, in this internet mediated area would ring minds together. the reason for that is that most of the people i interviewed for my book were very intelligent people. christian educated and i know a lot of people who i've called conspiracy theorist who are very smart people. what is happening is that i think most people including myself, are ideological commitments are often emotional and then we look for fact to back up those ideological commitments. it doesn't matter what your

ideological commitments are. it could be zionism, anti-zionism, capitalism and people are obsessed with local warming on one side or the other. the internet has enabled people to find factoids that support every conceivable position and draw congressional lines between them. webster tarpley is similar in some respects and if you talk to alex jones the guy has an encyclopedic brain. any conspiracy theory in the world he will have 20 little fact though it's drawn from the internet and put together an sinister and sinister ways to show that the conspiracy did not happen. especially with web video propaganda. the video being the most efficient means of propaganda and now that's available to everybody so you can string a dozen factoids together, put it together and make it very compelling. as you know i'm highly skeptical of 9/11 conspiracy theories. if i watch loose change the

soundtrack is he wtc-7, again it's spooky. is a very effective piece of propaganda and in the internet age because of it -- them matter how smart you are to be convinced of that sort of thing it is very difficult under rational discourse that it could take place. >> i am living under the disadvantage that no one has any questions here. mr. kay is so popular. let me just say, hang on, hang on. that was a rhetorical device. [laughter] the first thing i would point to is a broader issue. mr. kay pointed out the book by sally denton. this is the subject of my current research. the idea however is that we don't really need to be comforted that there was no coup

against franklin d. roosevelt in 1934. remember this was not just by organized to. the internal features point to the jpmorgan at the time, the morgan coup, the attempt to bring it out to the committee in congress was pretty much suppressed. suppress. that was 1934. if you look at the literature you can find indications of another coup against roosevelt in 1937 using anti-communist russian émigre's with that general by the name of van horn moseley i think. 1941 pearl harbor and my current research is precisely on this issue of brill harbor. roosevelt had been forced to get people like stimson, mcclay, mob it, bundy into the pentagon and the war department and the navy department and ultimately the defeat of the united states and pearl harbor is an episode of wall street's war against

franklin d. roosevelt which did not and then, but then went on a 1945 to what many contemporary thought was the assassination of franklin d. roosevelt in april 1945. that he had been poisoned by the network including a russian painter who was with him on the last day. i think if you just look at the 1934 case and say, oh, smedley butler went to the press, notice that nothing happened. none of them were indicted and nothing at all happened. [applause] you also have to remember in some other countries like spain and the spanish civil war, france with marshall, people were not so lucky and it seems to me there was a real danger in the 1930s of fascist or nazi world domination precisely because the upper crust of society in so many countries had a profound ideological sympathy

for fascism. its labor policies in the geopolitical use of fascism against the soviets. >> i would like to go to the back of the room and work forward. the back of the room tends to get overlooked so i want to make sure that doesn't happen. yes, in the second row from the back, the lady with the glasses. >> i have been reading this and it's wonderful and i almost feel apologetic that you are the presenter. i am in between. i'm searching for knowledge. webster tarpley and yourself and i'm getting information. my question is, how do you expect this to even want to read your book when you are being contemptuous and you are berating another author about his operation? i really don't want to hear from him any more. i really think mr. kay has a

good book which is something i think everybody needs to read, both sides of the story which i'm trying to search but what i'm getting from, i don't feel like you are giving information or facts like mr. tarpley is except berating him and trying to belittle the people that have come here. [applause] >> first of all, i was the one who suggested david frum and i'm very appreciative that he took the time to do it and i would like to express that i think he has been doing his best to try to make the best of a rough room. in terms of your question though, i actually think that is a good question and it's a problem i had when i wrote the book because when i surveyed the landscape there were lots of books by conspiracy theorists and there were some books that were written making fun of conspiracy theories. i did not want to write a book like that.

wanted to write a book from the perspective of somebody who doesn't believe what i call the conspiracy theorist but wanted to take them seriously as a political and social phenomenon and i had to walk a fine line in the book because i didn't write a book -- "the wall street journal" in its review, was proud that is said jonathan kay was not -- and i don't think it's accurate to say that i was parading people tonight. it's not something that i do and not something you can accuse me of. however you do make a good point that the way of written a book in the way i talk about conspiracy theories as to a certain extent like i'm analyzing them like a bug under a glass. i struggle with this because i realize it's ideologically patronizing but i knew no other way to write the book to take seriously the phenomenon socially and politically while at the same time being realistic that many of these views are preposterous so i hope that is a good explanation for you. >> the man in the blue t-shirt here on the isle.

>> my question is for webster tarpley. >> thank you. >> jonathan kay, there is no real way in a coup is tempted to say, to suppress or intimidate so i wonder if you could go in to how this rogue network could have suppressed and intimidated all potential dissenters in all the institutions that would have been involved in touched by the conspiracy for 9/11. >> for 9/11? >> for 9/11. >> they do it by terror and their own terror. to divulge any of this stuff of

their own personal existence, your family, your livelihood, your job will be taken away. it doesn't have to be the actual exercise of that but i think the threat is certainly there. that is a bit more complicated to tell you the truth, but i don't see this as a problem. the rogue network again is a network of people loyal to wall street and i was going to show it and if i would have had more time i would have shown you a picture. allen dulles has the address of this phenomenon i'm talking about. unfortunately we don't know who the allen dulles of today is but certainly in the 1950's into the 1960's, allen dulles did dominance of the modern cia, oss and a whole series of people from the oss, on the kennedy cover-up commission, the warren

commission. embodying this point where the intelligence community needs -- and of course he had been a wall street bond lawyer and that is rather john foster dulles, the cia and the state department and wall street meat. this is the locus of actual power. it is above and behind the white house. it is superior in its long-term capabilities, especially in the area of foreign-policy and security and military political affairs of this type. domestic issues, economic and things like this, it is less dominant and above all secretive but i think it's fair. in other words people have talked about the invisible government, the parallel government, the secret government, the rogue network, the peak states and some of these are people like senator inouye or other people.

theodore roosevelt even had something to say about this at that point. this is the phenomenon you are dealing with. michael roper said is so radical, we are going to blame it all and cheney. of course cheney is now an invalid but the event still go on. the danger of the war with iran is with us. the false flag terror events, mohammad merra and others, we could go on and on. the radical say bush and cheney could be involved in this and in retrospect we reveal this is absurd. one of the things we reveal us as time passes secrets cannot be kept. people who might have doubted the ability to control planes when promote control now you are confronted with predator drones, reaper drones, flying all over the world. they are run by global hawk technology and things like this. >> we actually have one way, way way in the back. >> hi. this is kind of for both of you but this idea that webster tarpley talks about with the

able danger, doesn't the fact that in libya you have the sort of rebels with al qaeda ties gaining power and now through like the thread in syria you have hillary clinton prepared to give massive untold millions to similar groups? we don't know they are al qaeda but al qaeda is working for them so how far-fetched is the idea of al qaeda as some sort of arab legion? >> having visited libya in june and july, under the nato bombing, i think it's quite obvious that al qaeda is what i have always said it was. it is the cia arab legion in a paramilitary branch of the u.s. intelligence community. that is what it was in afghanistan against the soviets. it is never cease to be this and we have these extremely high-profile cases. the infamous delhi's, a.k.a. the

saudi who started off at the a mirror of the islamic emirate mother and then became the military governor of tripoli of the capital of the country, was then sent on by nato with an airlift to turkey where he sort of directed and has directed jihadi's going to libyan veterans being sent across the border into syria. anybody who had any confusion about what al qaeda actually represents, well look at it and mrs. clinton comes out and says we know that al qaeda is among the people rebelling in syria but we are going to arm them and we are going to pay them anyway. i'm wondering if she is not running afoul of some laws with that stuff. >> yes, sir. just to the right of the aisle in the middle row in the back there. >> hi mr. kay. i commend your patience as you

talk about your book. as you are doing your interviews have you ever met someone who relented from his thoughts on the 9/11 conspiracy theory and what were some of the things that brought them back into reality and what were some of the steps he took? >> it never happened. the reason for that is, i explained a little bit in the speeches, when people develop an all-encompassing theory of evil which is what very aggressive conspiracy theories are, that they're some oligarchy controlling the world and making all sorts of evil things happen, cheap -- people tend to grasp it with the same fervor that they grasp religion and if you and i had a conversation i'd try to convince you to switch religions i would probably be unsuccessful in the same way that when i introduce conspiracy theorist in the few times that i try to engage them in debate i was always unsuccessful because of their ideological commitment was so strong.

the only exception to that was after barack obama released his long firm -- longform verses to fake it. i did encounter some birthers he said you know what, i guess he really is an american citizen. i think the reason for that was a became tied into mainstream republican politics to a certain extent and there were some people who were hard-core conspiracy theorist. they were just kind of hangers on and saw it as they group and a became very casual. in that case it happened. if you're interested in phenomenon by the way if you google concessions of an ex-9/11 truth or there is interesting guy who went to college in new york. he wrote this whole narrative about how -- his name was mark milky or something like that. he has this whole narrative about how when he started out in college he was the 9/11 truther because he watched it with his friends and well, around the same time he stopped smoking

marijuana. about two weeks later he said wait a second, this is the end. at what is interesting if you look at the comment section of this web site it's all these people accusing him of being judas and the training at loyalty of the group but he is one of the few people i know who actually climbed back out of the rabbit hole and you can find his web site. just go on google. >> on the other issue, have to say sometimes i think the shoe is definitely on the other foot. 9/11 after all, the belief that 9/11 has become something of the compulsory document of the state about as much that can be under conditions where we still have the first amendment which i hope we keep. i can remember in october 2001 i made my first speech against the 9/11 official story such as it was then with the indiana consortium for international programs in the state park on the wabash and at that point,

the question was what is the official version? the spanish inquisition will show you a bible and say believe in this or be burned and for the first two years, 2001, 2002, 2003 to 2004 the question was where is the official version? it was only when mccain hamilton commission came out with their exercising creative writing that there became a text that you could be kept to although as i said in the meantime both caine and hamilton and james, farmer i think his name was the counsel of the commission, have repudiated the work, that was based on perjury by the main authors. >> that's not true. >> they said it was profoundly flawed because the timelines were all fake so it seems to me you were where are dealing with the civic mystery religion which is not good in a secular democracy. [applause] >> to comply with time, two more

questions. we will take two more from each side of the room. if there are women who have not asked a question i would like to exercise on their behalf. the woman on the side and i will take two together and somebody from the side of the room. yes, sir in the tweed jacket. add them together and we will give them to jonathan and then a final statement. >> i'm definitely not a 9/11 conspiracy theorist or a believer at all, but mr. kay my concern is that to say that these things can happen in nape free and open society, it feels so many times in the past we have been naïve to think that things didn't happen in our name in a free and open society like the united fruit company backed by the united states comp -- government in guatemala staging atrocities, you know where the

president in chile was assassinated. in a free and open society like ours, those things happen and yes they were exposed but not in some cases for many years and they were excused. and so, you know, while i really would love to believe that in our free and open society, it's enough that journalists are writing and there are people who are aware of things. my concern is that unfortunately it's not the case. >> let me take the other questions back-to-back. [applause] dr. tarpley i'm glad to be the first person to thank you for your 2008 books regarding current commander in thief, barack obama and in particular

your profile as a foundation operator which at this point i think is quite clear but also your comments on the birther issue. you were one of the leaders in 2000 around that issue and the people in the media given that issue attention. what is the political fate of the birther issue if any in the 2012 campaign? >> i would say the importance is the following. people that believe the rhetoric of obama and the messianic utopian promises that he made are now very deeply disappointed we are only finding out how far obama was prepared to go. revelations in the past couple of weeks about what obama was willing to do to you in august of last year and those debt ceiling negotiations. he was willing to sell out social security, medicare, medicaid, the entire body of new deal, new frontier and great society reforms that the american people depend on, centuries of labor struggles and

popular democratic struggles and obama was willing to sell at all down the river essentially to increase his appeal to those fussy independents who supposedly decide these elections. the question is, he is a black man. is at one of the reasons he does what he does? with his neoliberal ideology and his foundation for the vitter klinger's and blue-collar america or is he not lack mailed? i think that is the question with the citizenship and the natural-born constitutional provision. i think it remains relevant but maybe not for the reasons other people would think. is the question of isn't there sort of a consortium to blackmail the president using this and all sorts of people getting what they want? could even be foreign intelligence agencies? that is bad. now before that, you were thanking me for the books about obama. i hope people would look at

them. it seems to me that a lot of them have come true particularly the promulgation of the bush tax cuts, the satan sandwich of august, the cuts that were done in april of last year and now what we are going to go into now. i think the perspective is very grim. a reelected obama might look better than their reactionary from the other side but look at the tendencies that will then be acted out. i think the answer to this is frankly in the arena of mass struggle. i was extremely enthusiastic about the occupation of the wisconsin state capitol in medicine more than a year ago by workers, by real people and how that went on to ohio and how is going on to michigan. seems to me that is the real occupy although the occupying other places has had some kind of a welcome effect. >> if i may address the question from the side of the room from the young lady about the role of

investigating stuff that goes on in government and the united fruit company and things like that, completely agree. that is the sort of thing that happens in an open society we have a free and dependent media. is one of the reasons i'm so surprised about how antagonistic the people in this room and many places where i speak are toward the media because if you look at "the new york times" and the pentagon papers and the media's role in covering the abuses in vietnam and if you look at what seymour hersh has done, noam chomsky and they publish their books into mainstream marketplace and you have "mother jones" magazine. all of these are arguably part of the corporate media and yet when i'm rooms like this people are cheerleading the demise the corporate media. did people in this room imagine that logs and tweeters are going to undercut -- uncover the pieces that went back in the day of the united fruit company? you don't investigate stuff by linking it to other people's

reporting. sooner or later when the original reporting goes away so does our capacity to undercover -- uncover the abuses we are talking about. if you really want to make sure those abuses aren't happening we have to figure out a way to make investigative journalism survive and i don't think you can simply show slogans that the corporate media and expect something to replace it that will hold government to account. >> i would like to thank the spy museum for its hospitality. [applause] >> here's a quick look at some programs to watch this weekend on booktv.

>> my journey into the black panther party started before i became a panther. i think what i would like to do is just to read a little passage of the book and then show you how i happened to walk into the panther office and how that day changed my life. this is chapter 3 of the book. and it's called finding the panther layer. i walked into a panther office

in brooklyn on september and 1968. oh wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. i meant to say -- save the best for last but not until the end of the program. is chairman bobby here? chairman bobby seale founder of the black panther party is in the house. please stand up. [applause] i knew i was saving that but then i started reading, you wanted people to know the bobby seale is in the house and we will give them a chance to talk to chairman bobby as well. i walked into the panther office in brooklyn of september 1968. dr. king had been assassinated in april of that year, and anger bread and the ghetto.

hating was the hip thing to do. from street corner speeches to campus rallies, had gone from being command to being the beast. young black students were trading in their feel-good motown records for the recorded speeches of malcolm x and the angry jazz recordings. i went down to 123rd street in harlem that night, the night the doctor king was assassinated. protesters arrived in the streets clashing with cops and overturning cars, setting trashcan fires at white owned businesses. one of the storefront windows were shattered by an airborne trashcan. looters ran into the store and started taking close and whatever else they could. not everyone looted. in fact most of the crowd continued to chant the king is dead and black power but it was enough for the cops to start swinging clubs, shooting pistols and make an arrest.

a cop grabbed me and threw me against the wall. before he could handcuff me and put me into the paddy wagon a group of writers across the street turned a police car over. the cops told them to stay put and ran towards the writers. i was scared but i was not stupid. i took off running in the opposite direction. i blended in with a group of writers and try to figure out which way to go. group of cops headed toward us. some of the writers ran into the clothing store that was being looted. i followed. the cops entered the store swinging clubs and making arrests. my heart pounded as they ran into the back of the store and found the backdoor leading to an alley. i gasp for air as they ran down the alley and was stopped by wooden fence. the cops came into the alley. hault they yelled, put your hands up. in my mind i froze, put a hand in the air and turned around to face the cops with tears in my

eyes.he kept going. i grabbed the fence and scurried like a scared alleycat. two shots rang out, one splintered the wood and this gave me the fear adrenaline tip flip over the fence in picked myself off the ground and scramble out of the alley. when i turned out onto the street i kept running right past two of the cops who tried to grab me but i away. turning the corner i am as collided with a group of 20 or so black men in leather coats and army fatigue jackets wearing afros and berets standing on the corner in a military like formation. stop running on brother one of the men with glasses that. don't give them an excuse to gun you down. i doubled over, heaving, trying to catch my breath. i didn't know this man but his voice sounded like a life raft of confidence in a sea of chaos. moments later to cops ran around the corner. they stopped in their tracks and they saw the militant men.

the men closed ranks around there. what are you doing here one of the cops unmanned -- minute. the black man with glasses didn't flinch. we are exercising her constitutional right to free assembly, make sure no innocent people get killed out here tonight. we are chasing looters the cop reported. no looters here. as you can see we are disciplined community patrol. you have guns the cop asked. that is what you say the man with tented classics reply. i said, we'll exercising our constitutional rights. the cops took him aside and walked away. by the time i caught my breath i was speechless. by that time i caught my breath, but i was speechless to what i had just seen. black man standing down the cops. go straight home young brother the man with men with a tinted glasses set. the pigs are looking for an excuse to murder black folks

tonight. with that the black man walked on. i scooted down to the subway and headed home. when i entered the apartment, grandma was sitting on the couch watching images of dr. king on tv. tears fell from her eyes. she didn't even ask where i had been, which was unusual since i was about two hours late getting home. i sat next to her, put my arm around her and we watched tv reports of the assassination and the riots. i came to school the next day -- before that i want to say of little bit about by adopted grandmother. i was conceived in cuba and my mother was a graduate student. and broke up with my father, came home and announced to my grandmother that she was pregnant but she had broken up with a guy. might grandmother pressed her a little bit more about who the

father was. when she found out that he was a young revolutionary hanging around with raul castro, mom got put on the first plane smoking to new york city. in cuba she had been a debutante and a graduate student and on her way to be a doctor but when she showed up in new york city she was a young black woman who couldn't speak english. she spoke spanish and she spoke french and a friend told her about a loving place where they took in foster kids. she put me there for wichita would be a temporary stay but it wound up being my early childhood in my adolescent home. nittany grandma and pablo took me and when they were quite old and their parents and her older brothers and sisters had been slaves. i grew up hearing stories about an america and about a south where you didn't look at white person in the eye if you were black coming down the street.

in fact if they were on the sidewalk, you got into the gutter no matter if it was raining, if it was muddy, howled you were. i heard about the group and about lynching and about jim crow. they saw cross burnings. they lost relatives to lynchings. with that though they were working-class people. ninny worked as a domestic labor and they had been joined the naacp and i was active in the new council. i was a student and i was in the choir. i had the sense of what was going on. we collected food and books up north to send to the civil rights workers in the south who were distributing that stuff to the communities. pot died when i was 12 years old so it was just me and nooni.

then dr. king got killed and i was enraged, angry. the day after this, i went to school and on the fringes, you know on television you would see stokely carmichael and you would see bobby seale and huey newton and the news described them as the black militants because stokely was talking about black power. i want to backup too and talk about it because all my lessons in black history i want to think it was over the dinner table with books spread out. he was a working man ended good man and what he they called in those days or raise min. a lot of my lessons would be as simple as we would be watching television, the old black-and-white tv and a tarzan movie would come on. johnny weismuller would swing across the screen during the tarzan yell and he would speak his language and the lions would go here in the albans would go

here and that monkeys would go here. after five minutes he would go like, what the hell is that? now you tell me how the hell a cracker baby can fall out of an airplane and grow up and the africans look like they are crazy. boy, changed the channel. [laughter] it was living half -- history. i remember the first time seeing a young harry reisner and he was giving some editorial. i think was about the space program and he was going on and on and being very educating and a very young white man. paul looked at him and in four minutes he said he was a lying onion had cracker. change the channel, boy. i like that. i could use some of that stuff in the schoolyard so when the militants came on not only were they challenging the power structure in a different way, in a way that we hadn't seen in the movement, they were sly about

it. again stokely was talking about black power but i remember one news report where href brown got arrested for possessing a rifle in louisiana, and they covered him getting out of jail. he was standing on the courthouse steps and he had all the reporters gathered up and he said i want you to listen. wait until you see my atom bomb. he was back. so i went to school the next day and i announced to my friends, and i was a hallway monitor so i sat with a certain group of guys and i announced to them, as clear as day that i, and the joseph and going to be a black militant. one of my good friends, a white jewish kid named paul looked at me and he said eddie, i don't know if you should announce you are going to be a black militant. like you're going to be a doctor or a lawyer. i said no paul, you watch and is much to prove to paul as myself,

find the most militant organization and believe me i didn't really know what was going on. so there would be reasons, you know, to look at organizations and reject it just on the surface level at the black muslims. it would be like sncc. paulin them can have fun with that. and then they ran a news report that talked about the rising militancy in america and it was a story about the black panther party. they ran the footage where the panthers led by chairman bobby stormed the state capitol in sacramento and for folks who don't know, the panthers started patrolling the streets of oakland california with shotguns, and forcing one of the aspects of the 10.program and i want to get to that later.

but that's caught the imagination not only of the community of america because it was legal to carry guns in california if they weren't concealed and the law books were to make it clear that huey and bobby and the other panthers understood the law, understood the right to bear arms and understood you could follow a person to the precinct, bail them out with money and if not they were young lawyers and legal volunteers to help get people out. but i'm seeing these black men with guns. so california responds by saying, the law says you can carry weapons if they are not concealed but when we broke that law we did not mean lack guys with leather coats. so they quickly responded by storming the hearing in sacramento. it made national news and i'm looking at this on grandma's black-and-white tv seeing the panthers stormed the legislature going, they are crazy. they have guns and they are

crazy. the powerful light legislature, the white men were ducking under their seats for cover and then the panthers came out and chairman bobby reads the statement about the constitutional right to bear arms and that we have to defend ourselves because the police and the occupier committee. and report says the militancy black panther party, he found more guns and communists military in the trunk. that is so crazy. i said they have guns. the men said they were communist. you are a kid and you want to be with the roughest and the toughest. >> watch this and other programs on line of booktv.org. ..