three days if the wind was right. if it was bad, you can could from new10 days to get york city to albany. that come from nit is a few hours. yes, there areot restrictions tt come from not being able to get around. but the flipside of that is what they did not -- they knew very well. >> you partisan other programs at booktv.org. you can watch this and other programs at booktv.org. >> now, michael grable looks at the money spent by the obama administration. mr. grable is joined by jared bernstein, and michael cooper, this is about an hour and 15 minutes. >> into overcoming.

>> thank you all for coming. let me just quickly moved to introducing our panelist today. i will start on the far side for me. michael cooper is a national correspondent for "the new york times." he began his career is a nice copy while he was in college. he has had one job his entire life, which is particularly impressive. here's to me is jared bernstein. he is a senior fellow in 2009 to 2011. most of it. the we will be discussing tonight, he was the chief economic adviser to the vice

president of the united states. before that, he was at the economic policy institute, and earlier, at the department of labor. and last, in the middle, michael grabell, who has written a fabulous book, "money well spent." i strongly strongly urge you to read it. in the sunday review section of "the new york times", yesterday, he had a review, and we are very proud of his work. in this book, he has been a reporter for us since 2008. earlier, was a reporter at the dallas morning news. and he is also a finalist for the livingston award for a fine journalist. i would also like to thank my

friend in the former lieutenant governor of the state of new york. thank you all for coming, and away we go. [applause] [applause] >> three years ago today, congress passed the american recovery and reinvestment act of 2009. it was about this time that the house had already passed a bill period we were waiting for senator sharad brown to return from his mother's weight. the bill contained about $300 billion in tax cuts, $200 in spending, for medicare medicaid, unemployment and food stamps, about $100 billion in education spending to save teachers jobs and infrastructure

products, these include highway and road projects and long-term investments for clean energy am a broadband, electric carts, and high-speed rail. overall, it is now estimated it will cost about $840 billion. if you look at all the state programs over time, like the wpa, the manhattan project and the marshall plan to rebuild europe after world war ii, the stimulus is bigger than all of these things. when this all started, this really felt like the new deal of the 21st century. there was a lot of anticipation, i think, among reporters and the republic, at a time when we were losing 700,000 jobs a month -- we had a new president, come in

and bring a soap to the country. we have just seen the bailouts of the banks, which had angered a lot of people. the stimulus was coming along, this would be something to create jobs and help ordinary folks make ends meet after they had been hurt by the recession. three years later, most of the money is spent. the unemployment rate has been coming down somewhat in recent months to 8.3%. for most of the last two years, we saw 9% unemployment. i am very pleased to be here to delve more into this issue. it has become an obsession in my life. it is rare to be able to say that. let me start with jared to explain the theory behind the

stimulus, what were the goals of the administration, and some of the discussions that were going on with the transition teams as this was coming together. >> thank you for inviting me to the event. and thank you to michael grabell for planning a careful and important subject. i would like to start out with something that the book does not delve deeply into. there are macroeconomics behind others. we did not promise there would be no math on this exam, so i will give you a simple formula that is actually quite illuminating in this context. gdp is the sum of consumption, which is about 70% of the

economy. government spending, and net exports. so exports minus what we import. i will say that again, because this is the harder of insights. consumption -- the largest part of our economy, investment -- government spending, and net exports, which is his exports that we sell abroad versus what we buy from other countries. when you hit a recession, consumption tends to stumble. in fact, one of the reasons this recession has been so difficult and intractable for so long, it is taking so long for consumers to get back into the game. a lot of this has to do with being so indebted. people may have heard discussions about deleveraging cycles. that is a way of saying that

consumers have to spend down their debt before they start spending in the economy again. when consumers stumble because there is a shock to the economy, the bursting of the housing bubble, you heard michael's statistics -- investors tend to sit on the sidelines because there's so much happening in terms of economic activity. the only game in town is not on. this is very much the pressing economic insight it was december december 15 on the economic team got together for the first time with the new vice president-elect. in mid- chicago -- it was a

snowy afternoon. i should have worn my -- i went to chicago and realized i forgot to wear a sport coat. i just somehow didn't bring a sport coat. i should've brought one in honor of this event. we begin with kristi roemer, the chief economic adviser, taking this new presidents lay of the land and going over the deaths of what we were looking at and beginning to talk about how we were going to need a big tax stimulus. that is kind of a macroeconomic overview. what i thought would be interesting, what i thought would be interesting is to perhaps talk about -- what i

find particularly interesting and important and useful is on the implementation. michael grabell has written a lot more about the stimulus than cano. there is a famous letter that king wrote about a page and a half about what he felt was about to do. it's as railroads are really good, and there are some other -- we should try to give people some tax cuts. what really matters is that you get the money out there. of course, he famously joked, if you can't find anything else to do, pay one one group of people to bury the money and the other to dig it up. [laughter]

i thought as we went along, perhaps i could try to mix in some of the map with the macro. and talk about how the very simple arithmetic works pretty well. i will stop there for now. >> michael covered this for two or two years? >> two years. >> i want to talk about how you as a reporter, how did you decide what to talk about and what was the mood of the people is he began to report and how did that change? >> you spoke a little bit about the anticipation before the stimulus was passed. i had been covering the election in 2008 for the extent of the better a better part of a year and a half. i was looking for a job after the election. the president-elect at the time of that december meeting, gave a speech. he recorded a message. he was planning to do the

biggest infrastructure spending project since the highway system. so i was told that infrastructure would be huge, we you would have a giant infrastructure package, so i took little time off to get reacquainted with my family i hadn't seen for a while. as i was gone from work, as -- by slowly saw this shrinking intriguing. i remember when i first saw the house bill. part of it would go to tax cuts and part of it would go to state programs -- and i felt what will i write about? at the time the bill passed, infrastructure was a small part of the bill. it wasn't really a bill to rebuild the country. within those parameters, i tried to look for things that i thought were the most interesting. i spent a lot of time writing

about the efforts to build high-speed rail in america. it started out with great fanfare. but it is very impelled right now. i tried to find stories to talk about what john was saying, how is this being implemented, and what trends we see? that way they are not just single stories, but what did it mean. for instance, one of the problems with implementing the stimulus, it is the federal government was trying to inject money into the economy and grow the equation, states were cutting back. the federal government was cutting your federal taxes, but your state government was raising your state taxes. a lot of the things -- i went with the same thing inñ minnesota.ñw there was a bus company and think how that was going to be hugely benefiting from -- you were there, they were going to

benefit from the transit. it was going to be great. what happens? before anything went further, chicago to cancel their order for new buses. the bus factory found out that they had to lay off many employees. i went to the unemployment office a man. challenges like that, i tried to illustrate by going around the country in various guises. >> can i make one point. i'm not sure that everyone is aware of this. states have to balance their budgets every year. and so, the federal government obviously, today is the budget day -- oxley, the federal government doesn't have any strength. it is one of the reasons that the federal government -- why that is where the attraction is. states will often act as michael

just described, profitably, which will make the cycle worse. >> we named our partnership wnyc shovel watch. one thing, what worked well during the stimulus package implementation? there's a there is a lot of good that the stimulus did. we can start with the shallowest -- wnyc shovel watch. .. ..

which when you look at the numbers, said about 300,000 teachers and support staff. and there are a lot of questions about toward the york city or other places have to a deal with all kinds of problems in the future, but certainly a lot of numbers, the pink slips. in things today likely energy, solar panel would farms, a lot of it is because of the recovery

act. i rode a piece about the battery industry and the u.s. a leper cars and batteries, they have got a huge boost from the stimulus package. in talking to the odors of the better plants, they almost uniformly say it was a for the stimulus we would've been building these overseas. and so it is amazing to see people opening plants where they have been. so they're are few kind of things that i read about were you just see a lot of impact if. i would like to hear from other panelists about what they thought. do you want to jump in? >> sure. when i first started we were thinking, the if a shark tank to which going to lead a tour of florida because there was a convention. the asphalt industry an annual

convention to lead there was some real excitement. there is a whole world of asphalt. the s fall university, tests the road. they have all kinds of things, but there you cardiffs of the desperation that michael was talking about. they had been building subdivisions, a parking lots. suddenly all what off a cliff. this wasn't going to be a savior, but it would help. they put up the first jobs are verse. you saw that it was three and a dozen teachers and maybe he doesn't the whenever it was, construction workers. treading a front-page story. the symbol of this is not a guy and a hard hat. it's a teacher in the classroom. once you develop further, the state of indiana would say we save towards dozen teachers. we're really going to let them off, but we get enough money to

pay for 25 dozen teachers. a deadly tons of places where people would back to work. some of the stories i wrote a check to look for some of the exceptions the approval. one big difference with this stimulus package and the new deal is that government was of the most part hiring people. give it was a dairy businesses. with its leader don't tired people. it seemed like to direct the hire people and those are some of the most effective stores alike across. about five they dollars for the temporary assistance which is will replace welfare. some of that money could be used for direct imported, so i went to tennessee to a very poor county called perry county to bed had two major employers, to other plants, both of them had closed got to mexico.

so the plug it was about to to 5%, which is -- we are talking great depression levels. nothing going on. an hour-and-a-half for two hours from natural. you have to get past the museum that stuff. the governor of tennessee said of a to take this money and we're going to tell them to just create as many jobs as they possibly can. if that means public sector, great. rehab work crews out clearing brush. if it means private-sector, that's great to. the book shapeless school that to hire. economists are sometimes wary of these things. we're going to the armstrong company with the law applies. they had let his stimulus workers. but the place a year later opposed up to 40%. people had done jobs.

check back with people over time. i cannot recall from the marijuana of the small tons. the opera was go to reopen with some workers to minutes of this was a case where there was some direct hiring that kept the community together. private sector is beginning to pick up, but that was the exception that proves the rule. >> i guess i don't view what you just described as that exceptional credit there are problems. i know we will talk about them. my experience -- sorry -- my experience was generally help things tended to work out. you stole my idea, talk about some such as jobs. why was there of more direct such as jobs to iraq while was there not more direct some celeste jobs to back michael cooper is right.

the most direct way to create jobs is direct job creation. the electric economic insight. a lot of what we did in a lot of what contemporary stimulus was for is to try to set the right incentives in place and this is across your figures in the works. i would argue that is about one-third of the stimulus. by the way, i was interested. you work at the heart of the journal's story of this. i just your government. i did that really think of it as being an f2 structure problem. i remember selling it as a tax cut. to this day of believe that tax cuts are in many ways the least effective forms of stimulus for couple of reasons. first of all, remember, i was

talking about leveraging to this idea that people were highly indebted in need to pay down their debt. well, if you pay down debt it not doing anything about that 70% consumption part of the economy. that doesn't really stimulate the economy. if you got in your shop and buy imports you're actually stimulating somebody else's economy, not ours. a fair bit of leakage with tax cuts. ed i think the other two-thirds or more effective in much the way that these guys talked about. i'll to say a couple more things. the other belau was the part of the stimulus. it was funded by top. very effective form of stimulus. i'm happy to say more about that during q&a few electrum but i think that should be included in

this edition of market intervention to order vetted to wretched the face of market failure that really worked in very important ways . but. just three accomplices, of bringing water to the farms worked in very important ways. just three accomplices, of . relied of heavy buckets. her historic projects a communities. is the place is seen as the stimulus plan role at every major project of the books. new york city is a perfect example was first proposed that. although construction began install the 70's to mid was not until 2009 the work of the way. this book is replete with things that worked at the citadel worked.

the next time we're facing this kind of a moment. >> we are in new york city. how many of you @booktv a list of you. the birth of a bridge is the a fresh cut to pay its. restoring the sea wall. $711 billion tickets were the subway, but the trade centerrish did anyone know that these are stimulus projects? some people love. one of the reasons, which couple of times people that really come

to be other radio. the second avenue subway. and the order of the reasons that people don't think is because the way we fund infrastructure projects has changed. adelle have a formula that typically says 80 percent will come from the federal government and 40 percent will go from the state or lookout. make sure they have private sector funding. so they're is a mix and there is an intense number of years of planning that goes on. these things have been on the project which for years. in the community you take these examples. you have a hard time finding someone who will admit all recognize that because it is not

that we go out and bill russell below those lines. >> in all fairness to a 79 million? navy from this stop to the next up. their pay for it. it's not -- in that vicinity of that big projects, money from all different kind of potts, local, state, the stimulus would help. start to think of these as primarily stimulus money. >> i did not quite address michael cooper's question about direct job creation. we were very interested in that to include the presidents. and one of the things we recognized at the time was their were run 700,000 temporary workers employed. if she looked at the job numbers

this summer of 2000 you see a big spike in the public-sector. those workers actually have to have fbi carrots. a fairly rigorous process. we talked like us to they have been through all this. the unemployed the rate is high. terrifies the bills for these workers? the do it every two years. and we tried to find fetched a project that would fit. it turn that to be a very challenging. both the way economists -- their is a section of the book. economists look -- of myself, but a lot of economists look askew at this kind of they. terms of the people sorry about

boondoggles. i did not know the you reported. a lot of people think why should i just all the a boy that i trust washington? the nervousness about letting the state create jobs. a whole set, not like to the deal, or you could send a bunch of guys up to a kampen say go ahead and start building something. there is a ton a barriers you have to get over. there is a lot of questions that need to be answered and concern that people are going to think you're just -- dole rejected why, but what you need to do cover you need to do a census of buildings. he to go around the country.

is senator incenses the people used to do a census of buildings . ♪ porches street, this building. so maybe we can have these guys and gals tell since the buildings. and the political slyke, no, we can't. reckoning gonna give be that because we have it was setting out of the street writing down addresses. to this day actually don't think that would have been such a bet that by any stretch of the legislation. there is the optics the euphoria about. >> the word boondoggle comes from the new deal. it came from a year and held in new york city. the already those days. where the spending your money on. they had a guy saying i'm teaching people how to make

boondoggles. the next day the new york times had a big have led and it was all the request is a good deal. boondoggles made. president roosevelt said effective boondoggle by way of this depression would have to do it. >> sibila : half million to teach men to players of the. >> right. test the question of the two? a rare one day pickier "usa today" while i was helping to a bull that a recovery act. traffic jam. this is a construction project. this was an article completely

about the traffic jam. a couple of crack journalists appear. i want to test, is there in your view in the kind of a bias to let a kind of pressure internally or externally to write about something like the recovery activated perspective, like i say that as someone who -- how robert gibbs used to go out live to that will to twice. the sense that you were just trying to be that several of the pull the wool over their eyes and that the ec could possibly be true was just possible i've never leave. wonder if there is a negative bias. but did this room probably two-thirds of you have read it dante's inferno and probably

less that what percent of you have read. the go. probably read paris lost to a book or read of paradise regained. human nature that is drawn to the side of things. the other part of it is the watchdog assumption that the press is trying to look at private monday. that said, there are plenty of stories that were considered favorable . and do another story haley barbour was sorry to create direct jobs. quito, if you go haley barbour was that of the republican-subcommittee. he offered direct hiring. you know, we wrote the stories as of tons of didactic the subtraction. shephard shephard the

administration beat you hear from the other side. you ought to make sure that you get -- the recession has time to present its case to the american people. so the journalists are there. paragraphs from the story. you ought to be skeptical, but you don't want to be cynical. so you still want to look for those great stories, but they're is a sense that there is a really great thing that needs to happen because otherwise with the government is working well and doing its job it's the news. the government is supposed to be doing his job. more often we were looked at --

you want to get out to the public the stuff that they're in that hearing in press conferences. this is silly nowadays when there is a direct way for the of the illustration and politicians to talk to the public through press preferences and three twitter feed, every cumbersome and that the world has a twitter feed. >> this whole episode. herbal the white house put out a very early list of stimulus projects. then of the other side you had john mccain who had put out the 100 most wasteful stimulus projects. somebody had to try to tell the story the best that they could. sometimes that meant bad news for the white house. >> said that the two of you in particular have been racially

fair. i am of criticizing you. i would say that -- i would not be so quick to stipulate that a new story this is the government did something right is not news to people. actually think that their is a real sense of surprise if you can convey to the people that the government did something well because america whose idea what the people in this room or the city, but there are a lot of people who did still believe that the government could do anything right in there are a lot of people who don't know what the government is doing. read this article yesterday. a lot of people would push came to shove committee that i hate government elected things is doing very. >> when there were pushing the

stimulus, i remember after 90 days, some of the show already projects would be moving, i did a story showing that less than 6 percent of the stimulus money was out the door already. some states had that even submitted projects for approval. so and tilted the evisceration, this guy with a television to rebut it. but it was useful. >> deterred dilated there was a map. 5%. i felt like there was a useful purpose for. at that point the but it was the story needed to. >> let's move to the other side of this. we talked about what things would well. talking about boondoggles.

let's talk about what did the work so well. there are two ways of looking at this. the one that is the most attention is the classic pood of story "we're looking for, i imagine the headlight that the advisers were worrying about. people paid to count buildings. the one, betty two dozen dollars to pay for costumes for something called the water safety doug. this was a mess got that was to teach kids a water safety about safety. its zero, that's a good thing. the probably book to create jobs at the cost of factory. but at the same time yet factories laid off hundreds of people, a 27% unemployment rate.

so all these things need to be laid. the larger issue is our -- investments like solyndra that will continue to leave the state of nuclear energy policy for a long time. michael can talk a good lake about high-speed rail. where we saw, the terraces of high-speed rail in talking to, you know, all those sorts of groups that promote this that as soon -- era epics of amtrak. there will be this wave of people wanted to have won their city. to get this point, no. these court to let their rick put the best places would be. batiste correlates comes of top.

the two places that we have -- send us money was orlando to -- tampa to orlando. the topper. and tampa to orlando was that even considered. a high-speed rail, there was an effort to give money up the door the first place they went to the san francisco and san jose where the high-speed rail tell we're not calling to run its trains of it until we connected to a major city. that is raising a lot of questions about the future of high-speed rail. >> who was to jump in to make. >> two issues.

i read a story, boondoggles are in the eye of the deal live. i remember finding some reports by guy his job was to go out west to lower rate would they would assure him that there are no blue devils in their taliban if you get to the next the subsidiaries is thing they're spending money on. the attack but the costumes. another example, the turtle tunnel in florida. that was robbie. >> the only projects like is for the lights. >> but this was the total killing fields. it build the road right to the place where the turtles migrated. it it was the most gruesome website invisible. so this idea, the opportunity cost. but people inflated different areas. they wanted the stimulus to spur

economic activity. her reply would tell high where there are going to use of their first section monday to build a fence of what they called a suicide bridge. brazilwood over a valley. the all american bridge. split into a fort at the bottom. in fact cover it was a suicide magnet that to people who wanted to commit suicide. they will go into the valley below. they used abundantly dollars to build a fence. the mayor got of will he for this. a recall election. this became a factor. i remember talking to a roadside the parents, a kid he had killed himself off that bridge. a very conservative person thought this was a waste of money.

how a ticket personally. i've had to repair the roof a few ties with his people both groups will but he did not want to miss the big. it had been shows this idea. so the small the big question is , talking about money to more prudent to build houses would do something useful. the bigger question, was this money be spent of useful things that will pay dividends in the years to come? at think the floridian corridor, the state of l.a. that it could be done quickly. even though it did not make sense, that that is to be the project that would sell the nation. it really was a flawed plan. i drove the root of the whale light exactly . it took bill was 60 minutes. ninety-four minutes. the road have been about 60

minutes. it would from the orlando airport to downtown tampa, but is back up to the tampa airport. each elected to the talent up. and then i thought to a viejo is for tourists. but was it like? i would like to see the ocean. such had to go buy a ticket to the public just adjacent. four buses at three and a half hours. and $90 cab ride. so all like the northeast corridor, boston, new york, philadelphia, washington to wall dense urban. they all have good transit. you don't need to get off the trade. tampa and orlando are car city's temecula between two places the for the most part you would need

a car. in the head, after republicans swept to office, you saw people like scott walker in wisconsin which was pushing for between wisconsin and medicine. a congressional route that would have linked the quarter. bell of that money can be redirected . pull the plug of that. saying that he was afraid at some point florida would be cut, soap is some ways this was exciting rail advocates. ap dollars for high-speed rail. at the same time it was seen as a tremendous lost opportunity. spread so that lee tried to please so many different constituencies they don't have the edit its. >> we will jump.

>> by what to offer a slightly different viewpoint. i appreciate everything that has been said. i would never advocate $1 be wasted. i think it is important to understand what was going on in the economy in 2008 into a dozen i'd add to some extent to this day. we still have our 40 percent of our unemployed, jobless release six months. that is way higher than the long term applied as ever beat. five have made people. the long-term unemployed it. there are four unemployed people . they're used to be seven. it would have been best of the could create the best most his fourth job, when the future with

shiny high-speed rail. and we tried to do so of that the best we could. i think the book gives a good story of where we succeeded where we failed. but what people are unemployed is the just that they're losing that much about employment, losing billions of dollars, they're losing it forever. those resources that are gone. you cannot get that back. that, to be, is terrible waste that can be avoided. recognize that instead of just sacrificing weeks and years of hours, try to find somebody to do.

there are also multipliers. someone who has -- was quick to use this -- i did go to a diner that was there when the car construction sites and s. the his business picked up. have you hired anybody. absolutely. you might find jobs a you don't think is the best economic investment, but somebody is contributed. there is a multiplier effect. they're spending a decrease by -- spending, and that creates more activity. >> chair going to the question unanswered. we have to minutes. "we're going to do l.a. is important the new put microphone

so that your voice could be recorded. let's begin. >> they do. toward test above lost a opportunities. wonder whether this illustration is particularly blaming, telling the story. number two, the civil engineering a red 2004 estimated that there is something like one to $2 trillion worth of a for structure that urgently needs to be done. if the stimulus was closely that and not much else with that have

been very impact will economically? and might that have worked better political? >> that's a good question. the civil engineers updated right around the time the stimulus was passing to try to influence the debate. this deficit of one to $2 trillion that would be needed to bring american infrastructure into a state of repair. to that extent it is a lost opportunity. think about trades it. almost a half billion. i think about $75 billion just take the seven biggest and oldest transit systems abroad give it to rest -- systems and bring them into a state of good repair. the water in infrastructure, a tremendous problem, especially

industrial problems. howdy rebuild these engines to make there was money, but it's a job in the bucket. so the problem was the state's take a long time. people were unemployed red bell. impact, it was greatly exaggerated. there had to be a tremendous time to have tremendous amount of paperwork. and a liar with the back problem and contract to bits. so it back to the part that would have been that was popular politically, the of this fish is suffered a little bit . >> that is all true. by the way, it is the american society of civil is it years. i quote their stuff. never ask your barber if you dare cut. it really think i have dad is ts

idea that we did a bad job of promoting our accomplishments it is up for me to say i was out there trying to promote them. i'm sure i probably did not do as good a job as i could or should have. i will say that people, and all people plus some economists are definitely a double don't to contractual. and by that i mean we did the stimulus pro. the of a public reward up. the stimulus program to the work . that is the attitude i think we encountered. yet the that the of a public rig would have gone up more, as much as to parses what's more, something that independent analysts have a tough time again

, detective michael said his book. so what's he beheaded in your head, i think the presentation is extremely challenging . >> there was a couple -- a couple of things. the administration, there were a lot of events for groundbreaking or along the lines of the voting infrastructure. at the the idea was to board that will recognize the impact, but they will get the concrete example of concrete. will realize in retrospect,

difficult to the public to understand, tax cuts, food stamps will of public benefits. we never did see the president go for an entire day and warned people to this process where they can live show different people whose jobs will be saved. more of an effort to focus of the people. >> just add a little bit, i did a story, the 2010 midterm elections. the president just cut and texas for 95 percent of americans. 106 billion. i went around to people in north carolina in the midst of the campaign. president obama in your taxes.

almost everyone said he raised the. to be fair, north carolina did raise their taxes. the state did. sales tax with that. they were paying more texas. that of them even knew. the administration, they said to people in rebate check. they may be inclined to bake it and save it. let's chase the with pulleys of people's paychecks a little bit. all of the more their breakout. in terms of people love the as yet, it worked really. terms of people's but the estimate was not so great. i would back to the economist, i was looking. it was or other reasons people that the real-estate taxes went down.

>> i saw something that said there were not enough well as the united states. research area bridges. there were hiring chineses such orders . was there anything in the stimulus package to even trade so of our illustrious blue-collar workers in iraq >> there was somebody for job retraining in denarius. the one i recall is decreed jobs trade. the book that focus on the typical person that the president talked a lot of the campaign trail. the person who worked for the same company for 35 years to waited up by ellis. ed he said the great was how

luggage out as a construction worker. i don't take it's going to recover folks like me. there was a lot of effort. they're elected this has said it is that really met expectations >> the president always has boy, grope, boy, girl. >> republican governors refused. were people in the states upset? to this governors change their mind to back. >> ouster off. you had a very good point. initially there were a

supportive of the governor's for doing this. and then will we have seen no, things have got worse. that did not provide the solutions that are angry that they have low approval ratings. michael s. cover this as a reporter. >> what you said before. >> the government. >> all other republican governors. >> right. robert, republican governors criticism that stimulus. then come up with the back and to try to get a stimulus check. rick perry, complete dump of the stimulus during his campaign. and these leases a letter where he is begging the government to send apollos to miss way down the white. people have documented that the stimulus actually helped close a

big hole in the texas budget. so that has echoed by the way, kind of sour politicians on both sides of the aisle to do it or of this. ready about the attacks their stuff. every month barely of teachers and police and sanitation workers, but after months. hundreds of does a public sector workers continued to lose their jobs biggest aid budgets are still strapped. the american jobs that cause of the electorate with 35 billion the state's board teacher preservation. it is. they're fed up with providing money to republican governors who are just good to bad mouth the. i don't to gets good economics. i can empathize.

>> it is hard to separate out what happened with the stimulus money and what happened afterwards. most people skype walker was cuts that don't think of roads. they think it hits. so other things have happened. ohio. replan stimulus but also became famous. it is hard to isolate these things. >> sure. instead of characterizing what happened in 2008, the recession and keynesian historical terms with the state, you it is bursting the credible, the

failure of government to regulate the facial service industry. the bush texas that followed. recognize that we were for long-term serious problem in which 34 million americans. the fundamental a plummet has not been addressed. the benefit of that, is setting it as a recession i can tell you to was stimulus bill the plan for bomb. with the stimulus in the 300,000 teacher jobs were saved.

[inaudible] hop. >> server. >> the answer is that if we had known hello deep and long this recession would have been wanting is @booktv it has come up during this covers asian , would probably would not have worried so much. it turns out that we actually need these projects. that's is the first, second, or third,. so well we absolutely wanted to get a stimulus dollars out the door is could this possible it did so, the fact that the

infrastructure to quarter turned up to be somewhat less of a bug that the discovery of listed. terms of whether we he would have done more stimulus which is a, a discussion keynesian economists, you're very correct in saying, people like me do it was with steeper. that is a perfectly reasonable target. there were two constraints that in my view really cannot hectored that was differently in that regard. one was just the magnitude. as michael said earlier, never had anything close to a stimulus we begin talking about this. people were throwing around numbers. the idea that you were going to do in $800 billion stimulus was just shocking to let other members their record to have to vote for it.

secondly, there are a politician challenges. we did have to employ that this a way that was balancing speeded transparency and accountability. you do lori but tricky water through a fire hose. >> one of the things i found most interesting, a test of our system of federalism. midway's it failed the test. whether night you'd think these are good plan, the idea is they want to build the vessel rel. the work. so all these states apply for the body. a change in power. we hate this. suddenly you can't get from chicago to minneapolis if there is no line that goes for rocky to madison. >> our rubber one day while we were going to of the street

is said they will build a high-speed rail from basic to paris. it is with dennis added doing it. of laissez a radius of the covetous i am saying ed example. that is that they're building a high-speed rail lines quickly. it is the site is solyndra problem where the administration got criticized for putting all this money into a solid company. part of the reason is that chavis invested more. then able to provide cheaper solar panels. >> the stimulus to la feel like that question is always raised at the beginning. in at begin my interview is

true. was not there. more reluctant to do in $800 billion stimulus. they had their arms turned. the real question is why the a booster sure they do things for yourself to that two of mid-50s democrats to the senate, abusive of all of the will have been gile for the stimulus. but to give tentative this opportunity to pass, try to pass >> i cared service. misguided. the idea at we knew we were building a large budget deficits . there were those -- and not just to the a ministration. a lot of people who i think have a very irrational fears of

budget deficits at a time like this, in the very porter city, a fact that temporary spending is now what treasure budget deficit in 2014 chief the recovery act will to account for less than half a percentage gdp. let me say that again. in 2014 the recovery act will add less than half a percent of gdp to the budget deficit. drive the budget deficit cover this deficit stays in there, bush tax cuts are the best example right now. of course lover term, unsustainable health care cost. the economy was beginning to look a little better. gdp begin to grow that has been ever since. but best enough obviously. i felt as though we continued to

to the war stimulus. or of the results depressed the president's budget. quite a bit of stimulative impulse. but with these beaded to get better and be will be the to get nervous yet to rewarded not have as distraction. >> by the camera. >> very, very supportive. they did very well. i think it was more an exploration of kiddy that really depicting how this worked. i appreciate what he said. it is very specific co-workers. of state.

people see that in, but it seems to be one of the questions of the about of the stimulus package, the other thing is with you -- if you in this struggle part of kenya's and why that more direct route. more direct tyche of the wadi. how come that president of law but did not use the currency that he had initially used. so much it is hazmat passion and a large part of the country. that does. [inaudible]

>> this book is all about the first part of your question. all about the data on the grounds gray look at the of limitation of the stimulus. what i said earlier was the economic rationale which i think is important. academic counseling that there would say on cable to lows tried to explain. if you looked at my work while i was of the white house it was much more in this spirit. artists series of posts. you could see the mother of the deposed. recovery activex it. very less in this spirit of your questions. as far as widen we do more direct hiring? i tried to add to that question before. perhaps i did a search as convincingly as you would have liked

. i very much agree that is most direct. we got pretty close. that was quite close to direct job creation. beyond that you have some of the problems that michael cooper pointed out earlier. it's just that as easy to do that kind of the now. >> in another part of that question. i was curious what your perspective voice. as michael points out of the book, the of illustration relief that congress draft a lot of the package and instead did. that immediately if claimed the existing in the between congressional democrats in congressional republicans. to you think the -- in retrospect it would have been more effective for the decision to put out a bigger market what it wanted? >> i'm not sure it would have

turned out much differently. you are still somewhat inflate -- is a slave to the formulas. that is there. politically the get over a pretty tough part. it was the exact elect congress was like to get democrats and republicans to get behind this. politically it would have been tough. that said, you make a trade-off. i see it happen with the stimulus, the franc. the chatty view legislation over a bar with up dot the is and cross tees to leave some of the work to the regulators and legislators. there is a cost of that. >> your good to wrap up here. mostly gone. supporting.

[inaudible] >> if you look at the numbers you have this boom of 300,000 jobs saved. it has slowly come down to the pro rate is less than 10,000 jobs being supported by the stimulus bell through education jobs. however, summer of 2010 the jobs that came been provided funding. the last quarter of 200011. 111,000 jobs being supported. so there is a big question. we have not seen -- there are 250,000 fewer education -- public it's his job right now that their work. yetta see a dramatic drop-off, and the question is what happens when all of this funding is cut off? do you see this parade of lefts to iraq direct.

the only way you can raise impact. to this funding, one example where we saw a lot of impact was in south carolina where they have been a cold war nuclear plan. in june 2009 when it comes said. 3,000, 4,000 people working at the plant. you can see the to the. pull apart saturday night. you can see the impact. so there are show already projects. you can see it locally. they need to find the ones that would have this type of impact. >> to get back to my point to a part of the problem was the way it worked, they said the money to the status did you decide what to do with it. that meant they were sending them according to formula