asia you see a range of regimes the weakening, some where al qaeda has gotten a foothold and some like syria where it's desperately trying but now is not time. putting into australia, now may not be the time to move wholesales strategically to the east. ..

>> and now ross douthat contends that christianity and america has evolved from a practice to a shadow of its former self, which according to the other priest father self-interest and greed. this is about an hour or 40 minutes. >> good evening. i'm pete peterson director of

the davenport institute at pepperdine school of public policy and i bring you greetings from the planet à la bill. i come in peace. i mean you no harm. we are happy to cosponsor tonight evening conversation with paternity form. as it appears to be disproved one axiom, but it's my hope that one of tonight's benefit is that we will disprove a second. the first variously attributed to paul gala and john carville is the remarks that washington d.c. is hollywood for ugly people. [laughter] and judging by tonight's turnout, i think that we have put that one to rest, unless you've all been bused in from the carolina or something. but as someone who grew up in the northeast and went to undergrad school here in the district, i know there is a second month spoken phrase that

is the first is near and verse but direct the hollywood are more directly southern california is washington d.c. for people. from our blessed plot overlooking the pacific ocean, school of public policy is a unique graduate program about pushing students to know both the promise and limitations of policymaking, the only program of its kind based on a great curriculum, pepperdine carries forward the intention of its founders, including the late james q. wilson who do both and to all politics and policy is a certain moral sense. that is where so excited to partner up once again with the trinity forum, an organization that seeks to encourage questioning of issues ranging from politics to business. so thanks to you all for coming

tonight. i trust that we are all in for a thought-provoking evening and i will now turn it over to cheri. thank you. [applause] >> thanks, p. good evening to you on welcome to trim the forum at the pepperdine university's evening conversation with columnist and author, ross thought douthat and on his new book, "bad religion: how we became a nation of heretics." i am sure we harder, president of the trinity flora and we are delighted all of you came in and were delighted to partner with you, pete and you pepperdine. for those of you not familiar, since their founding in 1991 and i'm delighted to note that one of our founders, we aside to provide a space and resources are leaders to engage the latest

greatest questions in the context of faith. we do this by providing readings and publications which draw upon classic works of literature and sponsoring programs such as this one tonight to connect beating tinkers with indian leaders and engaged life's biggest questions and to better come to know the author of the answers. answers may come in any of the greatest questions in my surrounds religion. what we believe to be true about both material and spiritual reality on around what gore and film replace our faith, find our hope, a line are thinking and the. as such, our understanding and practice of faith necessarily has extraordinarily public consequences. cultures are around a shared set of beliefs and that the nature of the belief change, so will society. a fact which his field, and many

of the cultural battles from the practice of faith in the public square. but while many of the culture wars have been cast as battles between the faithful and the faithless are between those who want to impose their religion on everybody else and those who want to strip the practice of faith in the public square entirely, a new book argues that the most corrosive cultural fact there has not been neither excessive religiosity or expansive secularism, but rather bad religion. the orthodox orthodox christianity in a manner that is engendered the rise of the base version of the faith in his own words stroke our egos come into latour follies and encourage her worst impulses. it was through estrus political, civic economic and relational consequences. moreover he argues that such distortions once considered streams off the river

orthodoxies have it is largely tried to it is a provocative argument to make. ross is a columnist for "the new york times" "new york times," best-selling author in a staggeringly prolific author. before joining the times in 2009 he was a senior editor for the atlantic magazine and a blogger for the atlantic.com a so-so critic for the national review. when he departed the atlantic for the great leap at "the new york times" comes former editor paid tribute to him in print as a young public intellectual with the sensibility of the 60-year-old imminence grieves, the range of the hitchens, conscience of a neighbor in the

intellectual honesty of his frequent sparring partner andrew sullivan. so when he is not channeling hitchens, niebuhr and sullivan, who suffered several books, including privilege, harvard in the education of the ruling class and brand-new party, republicans can win the working class and save the american dream. his latest book, blood religion is being published today by the free press an affair degenerated no small amount of controversy and a great deal of discussion, which we hope to further this evening. responding to rustle the two of the most thoughtful analysts of religion in public life, sabu on entry at nine. someone is a correspondent for npr where she reports on the intersection of faith and politics, law, science and culture. the american women and radio television award, headliners the

word and there is a association award for reporting. chief justice correspondent, covering such happy topics as the impeachment proceedings against president clinton, presidential elections in 2000, terrorism, crime, espionage, wrongful convictions and the occasional serial killer. last night she eventually turned from covering crandon killers to god. she's also the author of "the new york times" best-selling book, fingerprints of god, rather the search for the science of spirituality published by penguin books in 2009. michael gerson is the national syndicated columnist's article appeared twice weekly in the "washington post." he put aside his most recent one and author of her conservatism and co-author on what he wainer city's main religion and

politics in a new area. he served as senior adviser of one a bipartisan organization dedicated to the fight against extreme poverty and preventable diseases and a fellow at the denny hastert for economics governments and public policy at wheaton as low as the cochair of the poverty forum and cochair of the catholic and evangelical dialogue. he previously served as senior fellow for the count of four foreign relations as well as the top of a surfer president george w. bush and policy and strategic planning as well as his chief speechwriter and served as world report. tonight i have an opportunity to hear from ross on how exactly we became a nation of heretics. followed by responses from barbara mike and an opportunity for your questions. ross, welcome. [applause]

>> well, thank you so much, she reappeared us a wonderful introduction made only slightly was wonderful by the fact that i paid my atlantic colleague about $5000 so to a 10 come into me when i started, but it was worth every penny. thank you so much for being here. i was telling she read beforehand i was going to do to extremely risky things in the course of this discussion. the first was to speak extenuate peacefully which would be a high wire act that all of you can enjoy it and the second is to revive the overview of the book were discussing here tonight, which is an extremely risky thing for an author to do because it raises the possibility that some of you might not actually buy it. but i see some of you haven't already, so i am reassured that

it will cost myself too many fails. the first question that any author casts when they sent out on this sort of grueling but two experiences where did you get the idea for this book? batf for the the book came at a crown two experiences. one sort of familial and the other is sort of intellectual and more recently located in my life. on the personal experience i grew up in a family of mainline protestants basically. i was baptized episcopalian. we attended episcopal churches in southern connecticut, which is pretty much as mainline protestant as you can get. but then for various reasons, having something to do with my mother's help and sent me to do it a general and religious

curiosity, my parents set out during my childhood on a tour of american christianity. out of the episcopal church it began by we attended faith healing services, which took place in high school auditorium across southern connecticut, western connecticut. run by a woman named grace jameson at the healing ministry and there is tivo going out in the spirit, people speaking in tongues and everything else that is associated with charismatic christianity. that became our entrée into sort of the wider posts to charismatic and also evangelical world, where i would say my family sort of span the better part of my childhood sort of migrating from church to church, sometimes from revival to

revival. we made to 17 and a half hour drive, slightly shorter than that from new haven to toronto, canada doing with some of you may know as the toronto blessing, outpouring of the holy spirit that took place at a vineyard church or the toronto airport. and so, in the same period, we were also sort of normal upper-middle-class, southern connecticut. so i had a sort of normal life as a kid who went to the sort of liberal-ish private school outside of new haven and a new life as someone who watched my parents speak in tongues on weekend. and then, again florida mostly guided by my mother, we ended up converting to her and then our entire family to catholicism when i was 16 years old. no, she converted when i was 16

and i'm in the unusual position of being neither a cradle catholic, nor an adult convert. but i was like to tell people the theological issues aside it was mostly greatly relieved to becoming a catholic is of course has an awkward adolescent editing tear to charismatic services with a preacher would've searched me and asked me to testify in any way, shape or form to anything are the things people complain about, the person so went, my 17-year-old self welcomed us with true blessing from heaven. i just have to memorize something and no one will ask me to speak extemporaneously. cincinnati is a very short, necessarily distilled summary of my -- and the way unusual religious upbringing. unusual search made by the standard of some people in washington, but also an an increasingly rep resented it a

ringing in a way that more and more americans and more and more to fairways are following this kind is -- though sometimes fascinating, sometimes distract his spiritual pin bali from church to church, communion to communion and are less and less like lee to remain with the denomination or church that they are pouring into. you look at a case like marco rubio, who lives the rising star of the republican party, who is sort of know to those who don't know much about mfa café, that is to know a bit more, sometimes attend an evangelical church and now with those notes and more pedicabs is sometimes attends an evangelical church who is converted to mormonism and he was a child. so i feel a great kinship for marco rubio and that i feel we both have what are increasingly distinctive american stories and

i religious past. so carrying on sort of personal childhood experience with me, i found myself sort of coming of age as the young journalists during really the second term of george w. bush as president the. when the debate, i would say the debate over religion and politics and religion in general and america and the west as a whole was dominated a new dining area, where you had conservative christians on the one hand and secular liberals are more militant like the new atheists on the other hand. we lived through a period where there is secular liberal panic over the looming specter of a theocracy that michael gerson was going to an onus on us in the bush white house. and at the same time, you had

religious believers are themselves into the fray against christopher hitchens, richard dawkins and daniel done it and all the other voices as thin hair is in the voices of the new atheists. in spite of my exhaustion with a theocracy debate, the broader debate is there a god or not is usually can be hugely important when. but it struck me is that both solid and it dissipated in these debates, the kind of binary was missing a huge part of the story of religion in the united states and that the real story at an american at large is not a story of pope benedict the 16th luck in fact correct with christopher hitchens on the soul of america. it is a menace to take with you tonight. it is a story of a kind charade than on the one hand is no longer as traditionally

christian as it once was and i can assure you both protestants and cats that are weaker in many ways than they were in previous generations to the american story. but on the other hand it's can be meaningfully described as post-christian, pagan and some of my more pessimistic co-believers sometimes do and certainly not as secular in any but the most expansive definition of the term. in fact, if you look at public opinion data on your spiritual experience and whether americans report having had a direct encounter with god and whether they believe in intercessory prayer supernatural and so on and also as a nonspecific markers of religious belief, and americans as religious as ever. you can argue in certain ways it might be more religious a never

before appeared so it kind of country are we if we are not a secular nation and not a traditionally christian nation? well, as i argue in a somewhat provocatively titled the book we are a nation of heretics. and i mean the term credit he obviously because i inserted coming both from a service specifically catholic stand point, but also a small orthodox view of what christianity is and should be. but i also just sort of made it diagnostically. heretic is actually the right word for a nation that is on the one hand not as christian as it used to be, a deeply and pervasively influenced by christianity and on most all of its religious expressions, that it is then -- were post-christian, not in spite of the appeal of buddhism and

hinduism in mysticism and so on. christianity and some form is still the controlling influence i think on the largest swathe of religious life in the united states. and so i think heretic is the right word for what we become and perhaps were going. i should offer a couple of qualifiers. but we have become a nation of heretics, i don't actually mean to say that sort of ranting tarries the amount of various forms they can't talk about in the book is such a completely new thing and american life. if i take the american figures i talk about in this book that talks about contemporary american religion, you can trace antecedents going back into the 19th century and the 18 century and so on. the liberal christian tradition runs back to thomas jefferson and unitary ascent and dsm.

the prosperity tradition is as old as alexis de tocqueville and new as for trinity broadcasting network. the gospel of são paulo and therapeutic religion and so on. i think in many ways amerson is one of the crucial forefathers of elizabeth gilbert and eat pray love, which is one of the books i talk about it right. so what is new is that these heresies really. what is new is the weakness of the institutional small orthodox, historically rooted krishan response. it is not so much that we didn't have heretics and american life before. they haven't had the field to themselves they think as completely as they have over the last -- increasingly over the last four or five decades. the first half of the book tries to tell the story of how this

came to pass. and it begins because, you know, every book needs to be gaining some lost arcadia to be summoned up where will be judged in found wanting. it begins with the postwar revival, the period after world war ii, when american churches were full or, when christian intellectual life in the united states is more robust and vigorous, when christian artistic life was flourishing in certain ways as never before in certain ways is never since. you know, figures as diverse as flannery o'connor and it was an obviously only americans, but a figure like cs lewis at the peak of his powers now and exert such a profound and fluid down to the present day over american christians. so it begins with that world and that talks about how the world

seem to be and it argues the string of american christianity in that area is a strength that had been rebuilt rather than simply inherited. one of the points i would emphasize is when i talk about sort of the loss of the strongest two shall christianity , i do not mean that there was this monolithic institutional christianity equally vigorous in 18801910 and obviously the strength of the institutional church's first protestants and increasingly as well has waxed and waned american previous periods of crisis for sort of the institutional churches. the postwar revival was born not of one such period of crisis. and born out of the 1920s and 1930s, when you had an era when protestant america was splitting up and the fundamentalists were spent catholic america was still largely to fine-tune immigrant

ghetto and entered as a whole and when there was a sense that the coming themeless unsorted secular ideology, whether it was marxism, communism or fascism and so on. and i period ended with the depression in the second world war and ended with people being aware of the horrors that those kind of ideologies could lead to and not experience it can lead to a real and sustained reassessment of sort of a more orthodox christianity, as a guide -- as if they could be modernized for real life. i argue in this chapter that what that was really characterized by was the kind of christian convergence, where you had american can all assist in moving into the mainstream as never before an american

catholic intellectuals doing an enormously important neighbors to move their own church towards a more serious engagement with the benefits of liberal democracy and living catholicism out of its 19th century reactionary crotchet issues of democracy and so on. you have catholicism moving into american instrument that way. if america's evangelical churches emerging from the fundamentalists years and you have a figure like billy graham sorted and body and evangelicalism that in many ways have been 10 or 15 years ago, the two style, whose motives world was completely different, competence, openhanded and so on. and the mainline yet the high noon of what we think of now is

the particularly intellectual and theological movement of figures like niebuhr and his brother richard and many other writers and anchors to lourdes lourdes lourdes that tours of historic christianity and away from the modernist areas of their optimism about sort of building the kingdom of god on earth in effect. so you have that evangelical perversions and then the black church, which was such a marginal player and the lights of american christianity as a whole were so many years that suddenly emerges under the leadership like martin luther king, ralph abernathy and sort of rushes to the center of american religious life and american political life and becomes the vehicle for this era of political reform has deeply

influenced by principal and in a way and our own era to which partisanship and party it transcended the divide as well. so you ended, obviously he meant variation of a christian reacted to the civil rights movement, but also real commonalities by the way willie graham and arched his ships and mainline protestants and intellectuals all in different ways were stirred by the message of king and others and found the kind of ecumenical brotherhood in the cause of civil rights. so that is a rough sketch of where my story began and then leaps ahead to the 1960s and 70s into it. , which for mainline protestant and was straightforward

callouts. it's a story pretty well known, but still shocking to look at the raw numbers and house was fully what seemed like very penitent and influential mainline denominations, lost membership's membership's money, morale, prestige and went from being the mainline drifting, richard neuhaus said jeff does the sideline of american life. and obviously it was appeared pricey for the church as well. and church attended to some of us not nearly as steep for the mainline churches, but the collapse of catholicism institutional culture, the collapse and the rate at which nuns and priests essentially exited their vocations across the 67 is still the story but the capacity to surprise and even shock. so the collapse of the mainline,

the weakening the internal divisions in catholicism and over the same period in many ways, some of this decline rebounded to the benefit of the evangelical churches, which were often the place that is where believers from the mainline denomination and the catholic church found the kind rough lodz and remained robust and resilient and even growing. but the argument i make in the book is if you look at sort of the wrong berries, overall public opinion polls, religious and theological issues and then if you just look at sort of the influence of christianity on the culture as a whole, to be filling in for even growing strength of evangelicalism was not sufficient by any stretch to fill the void and the weakening

of the catholic church. and because all books must have it well appointed with a four factors that led to this transformation, i put all of pointedness to four fact there is an obviously there's presumably many, many more as well. i try to boil it down to four big ships and it's the influence of partisanship and polarization and the sort of shift from the model that was fairly successfully pursued in the civil rights era, when you had a kind of christian move meant reform the sort of push politicians rather than becoming captives gave way to an era undone increasingly in the 80s 90s and 2000 increasing number of americans felt like religious

believers were sort of captive to partisan causes rather than the other way around. the example i like to use is the difference between the style of political engagement of the billy graham that martin luther king in the midcentury era and two men who in certain ways for potential heirs, pat robertson and jesse jackson and 1880s and 1990s. graham and certainly king were deeply engaged in political debates and issues and so on. but they were engaged in a manner for the most part unless a later and tanks career and less so for a grand jury in president be, but overall were engaged in a way that did not feel partisan and nearly archaeological. the potential successors actually ran for president at their respective parties. the mission of the preacher seemed to become the democratic nominee for president and i

think that shift has been planed itself across the last two decades and explains a lot of why the mainline churches lost membership in the 60s and 70s because there is a feeling that transform themselves in an effort to remain relevant and liberal politics. let's are interested, why would you get up early on sunday morning to go to church. you could just go vote for a democratic politician or volunteered for a political cause. and then i think something must distract it, but somewhat similar happened with religious conservatives and come which is a cause they certainly feel strong identification with, but which in different ways and different times and places in the 80s to the bush era increasingly gave off the fence and mike who follows him he has an about-face -- about this if

you are in a republic can come you probably didn't want to be a christian and associated with people who associate with christianity. you can see this in opinion polls and started in the 1990s the americans who are functionally religious but didn't want to identify as christian or religious because they felt to do so was to identify with conservative son. that is the first factor in the weakening of christianity. the second factor is the one everyone talks about rightly so and that is so revolution and the challenge that the birth-control pill and transformation is more generally -- the challenge of poster traditional christian at six and that continues working itself to the present day and in the 60s it was divorced. the divorce revolution deposed the challenge.

the issues that are tearing apart many american churches are focused around sort of how should christians react to the postclassic age. how should christians think about homosexuality in scripture are not the rest of it. so i won't actually say that much more about the issue because i think it's very well trod terrain except to say that it's a place where i don't there's been a complete discovery of a totally affect his christian response to this new culture that is on the one hand faithful to scripture and tradition, but on the other hand engaged with reality, social reality as they actually exist. the third factor is what i call the opening of the more global is an that globalization is obviously some thing happening for decades and centuries and so

on. the tipping point in the 1960s, the conversation decolonization, or in vietnam, the peace corps and then peace corps and then the sort of television revolution for scenes from around the world could be beamed into people's homes. more than any other factor, the perspective helps explain why the relativism of the sort moral illogical relativism became so much more persuasive to many americans and americans who identified as christian and religious. the teeming diversity suddenly being into their living rooms inside well, given all of that, how can i sue my one religious tradition, which is frankly associated with the history of western imperialism and chauvinism, how can i say that's the one true faith? the irony is over the same period the people who were moving out from under the western colonial and imperial yoke were finding more

traditional christianity more persuasive than they had before. there is this odd divergence they are come with experience for the colonizers, created kind as a christian crisis and for the colonized make christianity seem before. and the final step or is in the weakening of institutional christianity is not affluence. and i think this is an issue that religious conservatives in particular maybe don't pay quite enough attention to because they're more likely to be generally supportive of capitalism a free market so on and liberal believers, but christianity is ultimately a religion that if you read the new testament is very hard to escape the critique of wealth and the temptations associated with great wealth and the important of not letting her great wealth master you and you

cannot serve god and them and all the rest of it and i think that was then remains a harder message in a society that america became an in the atmosphere postwar abundance than and for the society that came of age amid the hardships of the great depression. and i think it plays out across the board but the one example that i particularly focused on this and certainly a small one, but important one of mass affluent on the catholic clergy in the protestant ministry. if you go back to 1955 and look at the relative salaries available to the cleric versus a secular profession, whether as a lawyer or doctor or some thing along those lines, there's a difference. becoming a minister in 1965 and they was going to be a ceiling

on sort of your wealth and prosperity and so one can care to the loitering.your next story. but the divergence they think has grown exponentially since then. it isn't surprising i think -- everyone focuses on the impact of sex and delicacy in the one and to find catholic vocations. as part of the story for catholicism. if you look at every large, protestant as well as catholic, there's a general decline in number and caliber of people going into the ministry full-time and a lot of that is driven by the fact that there is so much wealth and abundance available to people who enter a different profession. in the end, we are all only human. that is made a big difference in turn and the strength of the institutional church is. people used to be ministers

become doctors and lawyers instead. you end up inevitably with institutions that don't have the kind of manpower in human capital necessary to be economically deterministic about it, to compete in the marketplace overall. so those are the four overall factors i talk about. i think they not been different ways onto the big heresies that i discuss in the second half of the book. some mass affluence maps onto the prosperity gospel, which i spend a chapter talking about, which i think is -- one of the things i try and do in this book -- again obviously it's critical of the heresies i'm talking about, but it takes them more seriously as theologies and people often do. it's easy to look at joel o'steen or beyond hosting, the more garish and meticulous

prosperity preachers unsay their garish and ridiculous seeming and her father is to be said about that. the argument may make is that the prosperity theology in various forms is in many ways is subtle and interesting and to actively appealing and refashioning one of christianity for an age of mass affluence and two, refashioning of christianity that sort of answer some of the dilemma the more orthodox christianity sometimes leaves unresolved. the message of prosperity philosophy is if you are rich, it's your own fault that you haven't figured out how to get god to honor his contractual obligations to you. you have not prayed hard enough. you have not taught in the supernatural as you should. in this way it seems like a cruel and harsh but it's, sort of blaming people suffering financially for their own

situation. but it's also in many ways a more come pretty message than the sordid starkness of jesus admonition take up your cross and follow me because it says to people suffering that she don't have to suffer. you just have to pray a little harder, right? suffering isn't a cross to bear. if society don't have cuts either. so just get up and start praying harder and do something about it. i think the same is true in many ways at the theology that i think they heresies i think is the end of two, in many ways, a revolution and the broader revolution in personalized medicine heresy at the god within. the idea that sort of the promptings of your innermost spirit, your highest god, innermost thoughts are necessarily identical to the promptings that god himself. in this theology i think similarly helps resolve the

problem of evil in such erring by suggesting that there's something to be mastered and overcome the, the suggesting there's some entrance and did. was it truly in touch with your truest self, which is also got to overcome the politics. suffering in the same way. it's also a message that helps people justify, you know, lifestyles and life choices that traditional christianity passes judgment and calls immoral. i thought that chapter around elizabeth gilbert e. pray love, which is a fascinating book in a religiously fascinating book than people give it credit for. in part because gilbert's religious fervor is so genuine, her search for supernatural burdens is so genuinely authentic. but it is a search for supernatural acts to watch this those experiences are placed in the service at a the life

choices that gilbert wanted to make anyway, namely moving her husband of five years since we've abandoning the life that bears that out and promise to lay together and ended up falling into the arms of the hands and brazilian divorcee in bali. it's figuring out how theology can consider as a sort of form of comfort and dice away at justifying behavior and also calming the ideas that people feel about the disjunction between the christianity of maybe their childhood faith and the lives they lead today. and obviously the sort of political side of things, the impact of polarization and so on maps onto it is a final chapter, where i talk about the twin heresies of american nationalism

, which these twin temptations, one of which is more characteristically liberal, distorted messianic temptation, americans can actually build a new jerusalem on earth if we just have enough hope in change and electorate presidents come to pass the red bills and then there's the temptation that says that we have the new jerusalem on earth, which is called the founding and we blew it and got his punishing a and that of course is not associated with hope and change. it is associated one of hope and changes most strident cable television critics, glenn beck. but i think that both of those -- the appeal of the messianic sandwich is the apocalyptic style reflects in part the impact of partisanship to the extent and which in

asiaweek and religious institutions, where people still have all this religious energy and seal and partisan is so much stronger much easier to invest religious energy and other essentially political crusades. this has been true throughout american history. glenn beck and of course woodrow wilson who is the embodiment of the messianic side of the heresy of american nationalism. one recent decades wasn't so much is that i feel like the sort of recognize him as a cracked mirror twin in a way. they sort of represent opposite -- opposite poles of the heresy of nationalism. but anyway, so that's sorted the chapter on political heresy. and then i finished and again the tour of the book and so i'll finish where i finish. i finish with the prospects for the future.

i have a four-point expiration, but i don't have a five-point plan are called hopeless at five-year plan for christianity survival. they choose sort of return at the end where i started and i think the model of the postwar revival is helpful for us in thinking through the challenges facing institutional christianity today. this is fairly pessimistic book and i do think institutional christianity is weaker today than it was in the 1920s and 30s, so this decline will be harder to come back from. but i do think the lessons of the area should combine a northstar for christians today and the lessons include be political without being partisan, which is obviously an incredibly difficult thing to do. though i may like to use his book, if you're a christian and you're interested in politics, and you're going to end up

affiliating with one party or another. it's affecting most people assume an affiliate with the republican party for obvious completely reasonable reasons. but in making that act of partisan commitment, you need to always keep in mind that the odds are extremely slim, that the platform of any particular political party at anytime in place will not go perfectly with god's intentions for human beans. so as you affiliate with and engage with his party's send, you always need to look for places where you think your party is wrong. the examples that i invoke and i invoke them not because i agree with them necessarily, but because i think they provide interesting models are to figures from 60s and 70s. one is sargent shriver, basically the last prominent pro-life catholic democrat. and mark hatfield. actually one of the first prominent evangelical premonitions which was noted for

his antiwar views in particular and liberal views on other issues. i think in those two examples, and asserted partisan democrats who could see his party was going in the wrong direction on abortion and the partisan republican who had real doubts about the vietnam war, you can see models for what should be the christian difference in the way we engage with politics. if there's a christian politician, he should look a little different and be a little bit less partisan and maybe then his less religious sort of co-party since msn. so you know, political without being partisan, sort of moralistic, but in in holistic send. so a large part of the story of american christianity over the last 30, 40 years is facing these various challenges, revolution and say were just going to get us on the hardest

chasing which is true on issues where people say well, if the traditional teaching on marriage, the stumbling block to teaching the gospel, the gospel is more important than the traditional teaching has to go. the record of christianity in the united states, which is overall a record of greater institutional, it suggests that the illogically right or wrong just doesn't practically work. but at the same time, it's important to become comprehensive vendor commitment. if you're going to talk about sex and last, then you should talk about watney, too. if you're sort of a conservative leaning christian, you need to be all the more willing to make critiques of rich people when their great wealth leads them astray, especially if you think it's not the governments

business that cuts their fortunes down to size. that makes the moral critique all that more important. part of what i do in the book is sorted tease out what i think is a little bit more of a christian critique of the culture than sorry to the debates we often have. the final point i make that goes back to what i would say about midcentury artists and intellectuals, but especially artists, which is the witness of christianity is a witness to truth, but it is a witness to beauty and a witness to beauty and truth and so on. and this is some named alan jacobs english professor at wheaton and a great critic and sanity may be familiar with his writing pointed out to me that it is remarkable the extent to which christianity today, intellectual christianity and america is sustained less often by theologians, last to theologians and t.s. eliot's text in the chronicles of

narnia. there is a lesson for us think about what christianity needs today that there's as much virtue are making a artistically successful christian movie. an artistically successful christian movie that an office or does polemics and theological broadsides that we engage in. so that is sort of close to where i end up a. as i said somewhat pessimistic count, but i'll end up on a pessimistic account, one that i am proud in the book that is a little bit cutesy, but i say that christians are obliged to be hoped will about the future because their faith has always depended on unexpected resurrections. so i'm not an outcome of much.

[applause] >> well, i stand in wonder and that oration. i don't think i have ever in my life had spoken extemporaneously. at the nikon versus you with my mother a script to do every morning. [laughter] my hat goes off to you truly. no, that was terrific. i just have a couple of coins and one question about ross' excellent book. the first thing that struck me about this book is just how spot on the research is. as a journalist i know it's really, really easy to get the details wrong. when he do that you can undermine your whole story or whole boat. the ross analyzes a few things they know a whole lot about.

and what struck me was he always hits a bull's-eye. so one thing i know a lot about his christian science. those are the folks who don't believe that prayer is more effective than madison and physical and mental healing that sort of thing. i was raised a christian scientist and i know that people get religion wrong a lot more than they get it right, so imagine how delighted i was when i read ross' analysis of christian science and realize he had really done the research and treated it with great respect, which is unusual and also placed it historically and then you talk movement. this actually gave me something to think about that i hadn't thought about before. insights about christian science, origins and flaws. one thing he suggests in this is a theme throughout the book as we try to simplify jesus confounding complex message by narrowing down to one thing, you

have a big problem. in the case of christian science, jesus wasn't the son of god. he was not an advocate for the homeless and the poor, but he was a physical healer. he was a doctor. i've also covered the prosperity gospel. people barked like dogs and caught like chickens and are slain in the spirit. and this is an eye-opening top for me because i know idea that she rushed out of the toronto blessing. it is not an obvious that when you look across taking. but once again, ross placed this in historical context. it turns out that christian science in the prosperity gospel are actually in the same family tree. it's great to think about this at these intensely constrained

are related to say kinescope lin angelos seen. but one again, what ross has done many know a subject and you know someone can spot on ways that gives you, but in that the rest of the book is accurate as well. so that is what he did. i could go on for sometime about ross' analysis which we just heard here that may move onto the second reason that i really, really liked this book. it is a joy to read. it's really a fun read. ross has an elegant and delightfully acerbic style. just listen to this passage could does is account for the search of the historical jesus, which turns out to be a frontal assault on the traditional marriott here this is what he writes on page 162. like elizabethan bus in search of the real shakespeare, the quest for the historical jesus turn out to be masters of detection and geniuses code breaking, capable of seeing through every cover a then

unpacking every time. is there a dearth of evidence for christianity from the earliest histories of the church? for them that there has been is evidence that it these christianity is it listed and then were cruelly suppressed. ouch. i love it. the entire book is essentially a primer for his straight forward, elegant and often devastating writing. even alleycat writing wouldn't succeed at the message board so powerful. when ross to examine mainline christianity, i think he's really at his best. he does this by looking at the past and the present. the past and the future. when he considers the decline of mainline protestant christianity, he traces that impart to the search for the historical jesus which i just mentioned. of course it's true scholars have to take into account his

services as are to other like the gnostic gospels. and rosses gospels come in mainline christianity has becomes enamored of fighters and ideas that have been good that it is carved up basically the court orthodox christianity. for example, scholars have the jesus seminar at throne of virtually all but a hand full and geniuses that turns out his out the strong silent type. he's basically mute according to the jesus seminar. he's a proponent of justice. he's not the son of god we don't think. and this kind of stick figures she says has been my reporting experience invaded the mainline church. now it's true that there aren't a lot of great mainline churches. for ross has really put his finger on some band that i've witnessed in my reporting and i really appreciated it.

ross dunn looks ahead in his chapter on the voice within or the god within. and here again, the writing is engaging and buzzes happily for a eat pray love and the da vinci code to augustine and saint teresa of avila. and what he finds comports completely with my reporting on america's spirituality. send in a studied a little bit -- a lot actually on america's spirituality. it turns out over half of americans say they've had a transformative spiritual experience that changed their lives. that's great, but increasingly these events or personal experience which are untethered from any religious faith. i wouldn't discount experiences. an encounter with god is really the foundation for every religion. that experience can be flabby, lee to, lychee self-centeredness and as ross pointed out, you can wander from traditional

morality. i love how he puts a year. he goes to prompting of one's inner self aren't necessarily identical to the prompting of the holy spirit. sometimes the god within and thank god it all just the ego using spirituality as a convenient cause for its own desires and pulses. an intensely jealous of his ability to write. just because these really great. i think rosses writes that the special order jesus' influence a young christian. most young evangelicals don't believe that this is true. according to polls, most young evangelicals do not believe jesus is the only way to god or christianity has an exclusive claim on truth. ..

>> now i have a question

before you. you cannot answer it now but maybe later during q and day. it seemed off topic but what the as orthodox nine heretical christianity look like for women? doug wilson says lives must be lead with the firm hand and has been should be instructing and teaching his wife. i am quite sure you did not subscribe to those views but lot of non orthodox christians do more within would shave they are more likely that men to have a college degree or job. should they give up their

jobs on capitol hill lower npr? many women are wary of orthodoxy christianity because of the past and has not been to -- been friendly to women. i know it is not seven secrets to the orthodox life but how you sell that to women? think you. [applause] >> i not only oppose extemporaneous speaking but all speaking without a teleprompter. [laughter] id is a tremendous pleasure to offer thoughts on a

challenging and brilliant book anybody interested in american politics or religion should read it. there will be exposed to one of the most interesting thinkers of american life and "bad religion" has many virtues which are of the author. the book is courageous. there will not be many other times on "the new york times" best-seller list that ended with the altar call. [laughter] ross expresses a deep christian faith and brings great credit. the book is attentive. notices events in figures that others distort to. it talks about evangelicals and catholics together

rapprochement that is important to. but it talks about henry and schaefer and packer anybody that people should know about but people don't. the book outraged at the right times and at the right thing this. the quest for the supreme self. this type of egotism is dangerous and ross treats it as serious and dangerous. the book is also with the which is considered a moral virtue. [laughter] a total delight to read and makes it tough and challenging argument. my only criticism of "bad religion" is in a few places it lacks the virtue of

charity. it lays into the prosperity gospel of marriage and joe os team deserves everything he has coming to him. but some seems broad the prosperity theology is currently the largest source of kristian growth and vitality and maybe the largest source of vitality and growth in history. sociologists spend a lot of time of the global movement. peter. has virtues to be a consumer virtue.

the social effects are likely to be positive. strikes me as the mainstream of figure ross ed meyers but after visiting one prosperity church in south africa he said the message from the preacher had two major themes. god does not want you to be poor and you can do it. you can do something about the circumstances of your life. i am inclined to think not. does got want us to be poor? the prosperity gospel as no sentimentality. speaking sociological the

gospel is closer to the empirical facts and the idea of the board reminiscent of the savage and such notion with all the people not by those who are savages or patronizing. the second era where "bad religion" lacks a charity concerns religious people into government. i have some experience and it makes me biased and gives me knowledge with motives. of the devices piety which i never saw him practice he talks of frenzied rhetoric and the holy war.

he refers to the intervention of messianic nationalism which is nonsense and the calculation of a mass murderer that could be mistaken but they have dropped correspondents to reality to realize how tough it is to govern. the third area is with evangelicalism. ross argues it lacks the next precedent literary school. the cultural products are second rate. my share some of these criticisms then i go back to the midwest people committed

to their small groups and i am not so of negative they listen to mediocre music they read very birkhead to but they face things with grace but leave the eternal mark i am not sure who got values more. everybody has a definition of that the left all excepting party and renunciation with t.s. eliot and heterosexual chastity and sensitive i would like

to visit that church. [laughter] but i am not sure it is a large, creation. would be closed of mentioning see themselves as a respectable woman of god there given a vision all of the id britcom bet down and out have the wits given presidents. so votes to see by the shocked and altered faces they would be burned away.

a high calling to defend a virtue and orthodoxy the especially for those in the lead. thank you. [applause] >> >> we did promise a conversation that involves you. we will be delighted to take your questions please pose your question in the form of a question. to the point*. we will be by with a microphone. questions for any of the speakers? >> i am curious if your book

picks up the question of anti-institutional this them talking about jesus really against against the religion of his time with religion and politics from the large mainline down nominations into splintered groups into nondenominational churches in politics on the right to with less support for political institutions and the growth of tea party is

like the occupied movement there seems to be a parallel movement in what position you take on it you put your finger on the trickier question about the weakening of the institutional christianity. i tried to address what extent is this a religious phenomena and -- phenomenon and doesn't experience the same forces why rehab few were masons, bowling leagues, alex club, a two-parent families, lyons

club, bearing is a broader trend with individualism the pessimists of where it comes into the book is implicit with by a pessimism to rebuild robust institutions at least provisionally the impediments have grown much larger than 1945 or 55.

i don't have the perfect answer but that there is the broader story is one that we have to reckon with. going to one of the points that might raised, i am a roman catholic. this attempts and hopefully succeeds to offer the the -- evangelicalism to bring the catholic bias and that can be problematic. that is right to point* out to buy pining boat benedictus bill that wrote might -- might lead me to overlook the virtues of the

middlebrow christianity by institutional loathsome and the value meadows across generations catholicism precious speaking at an evangelical event talking about the attendees that identified themselves as nondenominational. that was the great strength with the sensibility that transcended my denomination end splits off from yours and the forces that are at work but protestants and the

challenge but particularly evangelicals now what says it mean when our church charismatic pastor is god? what does the nondenominational church look like 100 years from now. but with the power of sustained the 1500 or 2,000 years.

>> you spoke with the strengths of the institutions and in earlier -- in the '60s zero or seven days with the problems that robert stood on one side but i see where you come from a drop of between billy graham and pat robertson. but the revival you speak of in terms of reaffirming the nature have started?

we evangelical background is what i know best. but the benedict has tried to reaffirm the roots of the church but rick warren is more positive pat robertson. every evangelicals is seen as a dinosaur and has bet for some time. >> absolutely both protestant and evangelical circles have opted as some over the future. if we step back with the macro picture numbers numbers, affiliations, there is still an catholicism

catholicism, with conservative catholics, a sensibility that the american church in particular drifted into error and much of what we think of catholicism is not catholic anymore. we had universities in the jesuit tradition but out of this disarray there is a smaller but here more authentic church. it is a feeling common to conservative catholics as they cold. the challenge of the context of protestants i don't know

of american christianity that christians can of or a luxury that we forage was five or 10 million catholics and not those pseudo the of the assumption from immaculate conception. the asarco religions and baptized a yen to confirm to from theological perspective just from catholics in good standing. i worry about the jt's of

pure christianity is insufficient america is not a pay again society. but from a catholic point* to view that is some of the spirit to you are describing. >> i am a soon to be graduated to i will be part of that campus crusade for christ. i have been growing in my respect some azide joined the staff to have a vice

insight to further relations and university campus? >> my advice is idiosyncratic. we talked of the success of the evangelical catholic rapprochement continuing to the present day. it is the enormous amount to between catholics and evangelicals and caring for the poor and that inter confessional cooperation is an obvious focus it is important for christianity

for catholics to be catholic and protestants to be protestants the differences that will really aipac them and. [laughter] but to recognize themselves from brothers and sisters in christ it could attract

outsiders as well as a testament to take the commonality seriously and differences as well. that debate. >> i strongly agree that the points made of the broader public role but it is the interesting side effect of conservative politics in america. the protestant divide was often violent. the rights and philadelphia and balances salted ministry to the deposition

conservative catholics and protestants into the same tranches not in that proximity before. i remember pro-life march is coming from liberty university with the knights of columbus that brought in the same political movement mick have the damaging effects that rapprochement was in ideological to some extent but much less the end of the same cultural to other exchange things the

pope is often referred to as the antichrist. is something that has happened to religion over the last few decades. >> is not about women. [laughter] and that the potential with the revitalization of christianity. can you hear me?

i am not all optimistic is the assaults by scions on religion. most believe we do not have free will for example. that means we don't choose what happens to the concept of san. the studies have shown when people believe they read a paragraph if they have free will. those that think they do not are more likely to cheat on a test.

so there are implications. is the nature or nurture the fastest-growing religion is the end bunds unaffiliated. what is interesting not only the young evangelicals and having accidents out of the church but so the phenomenon we have seen then they want the kids to go to sunday school. we will not have that phenomenon.

i am not optimistic about the future of christianity. lourdes you get to at your optimism? >> usd meet? [laughter] nobody accuses this book of being optimistic. i am staggered. [laughter] >> but you did say it has risen in. >> i doubt know if there are reasons for optimism about one point* to keep in mind christianity was a counter cultural force. if you read the gospels account your cultural narrative to identify and as a religious conservative but

theological a radical and so on. the phenomenon you are describing having note experience directly in the short run is one of the biggest challenges but in the longer ride it is an opportunity for christianity that is more interesting and challenging if you have not been exposed by half-hearted and lukewarm parents. is not a reason for hope been 2013 better reason to think there are reasons of

the more christian christianity the second point*. with the revolutionary eight scientist the way i tend to think about it at the think barr wins the theory of evolution is not the belief of a creator god. science has unlocked the science has unlocked the mechanism but on the way to

the creation of the human race tells us nothing of the underlying debate has and intelligence at the root. that is why i tend to be skeptical because the problem opposes as a theological problem when notion to original said. with adam and the bid is not that particular issue but the broader issue with sin and death and terror what does that mean if it is the mechanism the process of creation? intelligent design even if we are entirely correct of

the micro organisms of the south, evidence of the creator but not resolve with theological problem. it is not a reason for optimism but a place, i was impressed at 1.5 preys then the book was just on these issues. those issues have been there all along that many christians are just beginning to reckon with them but did it because the focus is to prove there is no god. of course, it does not prove that but it is not a reason for optimism but a

reflection. >> one short question. >> i'd love to hear ross answer barbara's question. [laughter] [applause] king may talk about the presidential rhetoric of george w. bush? >> [laughter] i am very hard in the book on the search for the historical jesus and the endless revisionist takes on the gospels and the use the this secondary materials. the one place where the case becomes the strong guest is

nb critiques of the way christianity developed that there was more of an assimilation been suggested by bad new testament text but in particular the gospels to reveal this erratic calls sexual egalitarianism. some scholars are doing the right thing to prioritize the gospels over the rest. in that sense comment the aftermath of the sexual

revolution as a challenge on the issue of abortion is a moral disaster, there is an opportunity it has been taken up to look at those issues what the gospel suggest. that does have to coexist that than judeo christianity is rooted in a sexual difference matters of the implications for the invocations of men and women and how they relate to to one another. this is a particularly catholic issue.

but the vatican and puts out a lot of letters but the pope about a letter making a particular era distinction between the priesthood that is reserved for men alone and it did not mention engender at all anti-sacramental difference but the point* was made in this document you could see something in 50 or 100 years that could write them into the 80th of the feed mill began in the catholic church.

we have begun to recommend what it means for men and women. issues with sacks and gender, we went to the period of crisis but we are not that far into the post crisis world to see because they don't know what to say about homosexuality right now there are these challenges we don't know what to people will think or do it doing the most important battles that is

the reason for hope to make christianity resonate more than it does right now. >> thank you very much. [applause]

>> my book is done that did annex of symbolic power looking at the rock and monarchy and the reason of its survival. and has witnessed a long longevity because the current dynasty not to be

confused by their ruling family in syria but it has been ruining cents 1641. my book looks at the causes of survival since the post independence era 19 to of their 1956 under french colonial rule looking at how the monarchy managed to create a new legitimacy based on traditional and religious power. the always are the commander of the state to manufacture

and produce and reproduce to create the legitimacy of appealing to do moroccan society it and there is a challenge your threats to the monarchies or in the air of spor in the air of spring it has managed to keep the monarchy clear of all of these. with multiple identities

with the diverse population 54% is arab and 46% is the berber. -- of our what pre-existing it in the ninth century. but while long period of time it has enjoyed stability looked at death progress and stability with -- and north africa. it is a system the monarch rains and rules and wields a lot of constitutional and discretionary power. he has a tremendous religious power.

not only ruler but spiritual ruler of the country holding 33 million people in the country. largely economic system with socio-economic gaps that morocco shares with the rest of africa and high employment rate to 10 dain on the source and the majority of the population is a toxic mix of last year

but morocco also injurious success to offset to the uprising i think part of the monarchy and the political system and called the february 20th movement 2011. in morocco there is every said the state has managed to weather the appraising. -- uprising but the public discourse the monarchy has undergone a years and decades.

a lot to call it the monarch popularity because it is not the same pain ns legitimacy. another reason morocco morocco could weather the storm so far because there were largely reforms perform to buy them monarchy to pacify the population and managed to take away that anxiety to repackage our constitutional changes from july and the product to words democracy. nothing has changed despite

the fact the monarchy launched constitutional changes it was modified and approved overwhelmingly but looking at those changes the configuration but the monarch stove has tremendous powers with control over foreign policy or the military. powers of decreed. the prime minister has certain powers with policy-making that could be subjected to the discretionary the dough. -- the tow but another reason why it could rise to

the uprising but the february 20th movement was set by divisions and arguments with its own leaders and discredited by the regime as the movement to topple or change the configuration of the state. i don't think that was accurate the part of the movement because now it has been reduced to a rise it every week but not sizable to create any challenges. i was in morocco last year and led to 21 demonstration in.

police were facilitating the passage and i was interested to see a lot of people were watching this. many same the monarch as called for reforms and the reverend them. that should be satisfactory at that time. slow to mobilize especially egypt to to bring about meaningful changes. in this the reverse but the first process of 2011 and

every week after that there were thousands of people. sometimes 20,000 like "casablanca" but the monarchy was mack of alien have they dealt with it. one of the first regimes to respond directly to the protest movement. the first being paid did was give a speech on march 9th in which the monarchy pledged massi3 one of the first regimes to respond directly to the protest movement. the first being paid did was give a speech on march 9th in which the monarchy pledged massive democratic reforms 15 talks about being a "citizen kane." that was new the first time the came talks the language

to involve the monarchy itself. they talk about the political parties, and civil society. what that did was grow the momentum nadab population rally because they saw this did not respond in the same way of course, gadhafi responded with violence and repression it was not best ko of the case today. so it did lose its movement

early on and not enough to regain the momentum despite the fact is still rails from the same socio-economic ills as the other states high-yield literacy rate we talk about the lack of hope in the future especially the young population than the prevalence of crony capitalism most sectors are related to the palace itself it is remarkable how the monarchy managed to offset

the arab spring at least for now. social sciences difficult for us to predict the future. i don't know. i would say the monarchies so far this year's from that to deal with the consequences and now coming back to the status of the monarchy with society. it is not unique because more needs to be done in the middle east monarchies are not perturbed as much as the arab world. maybe we should look at that

compares us in his remarkable they have the traditional idiosyncrasies that cannot be paralleled elsewhere i am sure the gulf region alert jordon has traditional horror tribal sources to be investigated. if i was a gambling man i would place my bets on the monarchy. if this stood the test of time with the theory of the '50s and '60s, the monarchs

face the dilemma because of modernization to change their ways or face distinction. but they have not. or now, they are safe, but they have to do with me quote changes of reform otherwise there is potential for a people. it only takes one spark what we witness in the arab world.