institutions, values, principles that created the conditions that put me here today are being sabotaged and eroded by those who have good intentions, but often do not think to the consequences of public policy decisions because they have different views on the human person and human dignity than those who actually structured our government in the first place. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> mark updegrove, director of the lyndon baines johnson presidential library and museum, recounts the presidency of lyndon johnson. sworn into office following the assassination of john f. kennedy, president johnson served for five years and signed 207 laws, including the civil rights act of 1964 and the voting rights act of 1965. this is about an hour and 15

minutes. >> good afternoon. i'm director of the john f. kennedy presidential library and museum, and on behalf of tom mcknight, executive director of the kennedy library foundation and all of my library and foundation colleagues i thank you all for coming and our c-span viewers tuning in. i also acknowledge the generous underwriters of the kennedy library forum, lead sponsor, banc of america, raytheon, boston capital, the boston foundation and our media partners "the boston globe" your let me state from the outset as clearly as i can that few individuals stood more to help john f. kennedy get elected and his running mate, lyndon johnson, who had an impact on jfk's victory in the 1960 election. it must also be noted that before that inspired

partnership, the two men were rivals. this comes as no surprise as throughout their lives both were fiercely competitive. my favorite anecdote is the story of his presidential library open, the former president wanted to ensure that its presentation numbers topped those of all the other presidential libraries. so he came up with a novel strategy. as you may know, the library is on the campus of the university of texas and located right next to the football stadium. haven't announced it at halftime, lb jay -- lbj urged, saying there is no line to the bathroom. and don't think when those numbers are periodically released today that the presidential libraries director to immediately look to see how we compare with our peers. the only time the kinsey johnson rivalry led to a face to face

exchange was when lbj invited jfk to debate before the texas caucus at the beginning of the 19 safety convention which lbj would be brokered to provide opportunity and to be nominated. his critique of jfk that he was too young, referring to kennedy as a lightweight who needed a little gray in his hair, quote the forces of evil will have no mercy for innocence, he proclaimed. no gallantry for inexpensive thin in a debate without mentioning jfk binding lbj contrasted the absenteeism of some senators with his own dedicated leadership in the united states senate. ism, jfk replied, that senator johnson was talking about some other candidate, not me. i want to commend him for a wonderful record in answering quorum calls. i was not present on all those occasions. i was not majority leader i come here today full of admiration for senator johnson, full of affection for him, and strongly in support of them. as majority leader.

[laughter] having definitely defeated lbj's last minute challenge, jfk went on to win the nomination on the first ballot and reached out to lyndon johnson's to serve as a running mate at a disused that would change the course of history, a portion of which is now retold in compelling fashion by my friend and colleague, mark updegrove, in his new book, "indomitable will: lbj in the presidency." as one reader has written, mark updegrove offers not another great band biography, but rather an innovative, eliminating, extraordinary portrait of a fascinating, contradictory and enduringly important president. this new volume are fully combined lbj in his own words, others author's versions on what he an alligator. and transcripts of key lbj phone conversations leading to a balanced full disclosure depiction of our 36th president. our moderator is john avlon, senior columnist for "newsweek" and the "daily beast" as well as

a cnn commentator gives the author of independent nation, and editor of deadline artist, america's greatest newspaper column. a speechwriter for new york city mayor rudy giuliani, after the attacks of september 11 he and his team were responsible for running the eulogies of the cities fallen policemen and firefighters, and an essay he wrote on the tax one and claim as the single best piece in the wake of the tragedy. one commentator has written that mr. avlon talks about politics the way espn anchors wrapups sports highlight the captured perfectly by the top of what is his best selling books, wing nuts, how the lunatic fringe is hijacking america. let me note that john is married to margaret hoover was president hoover's great-granddaughter and is here with us this evening. lady bird johnson once ran for an interview with two students who are researching a national history day project in which they would write to perform a

dramatic dialogue between lyndon johnson and martin luther king. they told her the stage would be simple with the two students seated side-by-side with a bit of a dry eyes to make it look like kevin. what make you think lyndon made it up there? last night wherever lyndon johnson's sole may rest, i trust he is looking with favor upon these proceedings. route that we have gathered to discuss his presidency, so chagrined that given the choice between our two libraries, c-span has chosen boston over austin to record a session on this new groundbreaking book which means the kennedy library gets to count the millions of viewers as part of our outreach. [laughter] [applause] >> but with all sincerity, mark, i nod my head, gray-haired though it may be, with respect and admiration for you, for this

new biography, for the johnson presidential library, and for the man did so masterfully on the ladies and gentlemen, please join me in welcoming to the kennedy library mark updegrove. [applause] >> i guess the competition never really ends. but mark, this is an extraordinary book you have done, "indomitable will." it is a portrait but it doesn't fall into the trap that so many oral history because its dramatic. you get a sense of what johnson's leadership style was. and it is such a contrasting leadership style with many other presidents. and because we're here at the jfk library, the book begins with that awful moment of his ascension to the presidency where lady bird johnson said people looked at the living and wished for the dead. that burden upon which, and the

contrast between the two styles, talk a little bit about that relationship. >> thanks, john. i do want to respond to my dear friend and my colleague, tom putnam by saying a, the story is true, and the, i think would more visitors last year than the jfk library. [laughter] the two were completely different. john f. kennedy and lyndon baines johnson were fundamentally different human beings. and i think that lbj was keenly aware that he was succeeding somebody who was so graceful and he was almost set an impossible standard by which, partly because -- but liz carpenter worked for both johnson's. was kind of the dorothy parker of the political set in the 1960s. i think it encapsulates the differences between the two men very eloquently.

she said i think presidents can be summed up in one word, kennedy inspired, which johnson was incapable of doing and johnson delivered. and i think that's absolutely true. john f. kennedy, in my view, begs to be judged by his work. he's so inspiring, so eloquent, so visionary. ask not what you country can do you, each bin ein berliner. we choose the moon. and johnson begs to be judged by seeing what he accomplished, what he did. he wasn't particularly graceful with a media personality. but he delivered a new high to get things done. if you look at his legislative record, this is a formidable president. and probably the most important president legislatively in my lifetime. look at the full sweep of a great society and how it resonates today.

it is absolutely provocative. >> i do think that the way johnson is being remembered going forward, that legislative acknowledgment that such a clear contrast with not just kennedy that so many other presidents, someone who really knew washington, someone who knew how to get things done. and yet some of them even in our age, was such a vivid thinker. you quote person after person who worked for him, talking about the complexity of the man, the way that he embodied all these contradictions that were vivid and interface, and he could be profane and patriotic and inspiring and take you off balance and intimidating. i wonder if the choice to do this oral biography, is that in part a way to capture the different facets of his complex personality? >> i think the challenge that a biographer has to capture lyndon johnson is he so enormously --

to make sure was evenhanded and balanced i think lot of the biographies about lyndon johnson, or to get married impressions verbatim. and to ensure that those impressions are mixed. very often people had these intrinsically contradictory views of the lbj and what he meant and how he conducted himself in part of the reason was because he treated everybody differently. he knew what your hot button was. and your hot button was different than the person next to you. that's how he got things done so effectively. that's how he was such a persuasive and effective legislator. because he understood that. he understood human psychology so brilliantly. so he would treat you differently than he would treat tom or mark or whoever. so your impression is valid, but might completely contradict theirs but. >> there's a famous johnson treatment where he flatters, he

controls in the intimidates to get legislatures to do what they want. but beneath that is, you just said, psychology. i was struck by one quote here from hubert humphrey, vice president. mr. johnson was a psychiatrist. what they would do, how do is stand up under pressure, whether temperament was. this was his genius. and talk about how he would analyze every single member. how much of the road was this kind of animal understanding of peoples weaknesses and how to exploit them? at how much was a sophisticated barometer of what people wanted, as well as what they didn't want? >> i i think it was probably a combination. jack valenti talked about him being fascinated. is of him like he was a panther. this beautiful animal but he was ready to pounce. and johnson had that animalistic element to him but he was also incredibly smart. and because he sometimes comes across being prude, i do think

we give him credit for this very incisive intellect. he was incredibly smart. he got things very quickly. so i think it's a, nation of both, john. >> and that's the key to i think his effectiveness. that unfairly, literally unparalleled record is able to achieve, bring those skills as soon majority leader to the presidency that we may not see again. the real questions about whether a man like johnson in our media saturated age could become president. and in his very tenuous relationship between who he was in private, so effectively lobbying legislators, if any kind stiffened up in front of the cameras a bit and it's that image gap you talk about. one thing beneath that, one of the people in the book talks about he seems to be trying to impress the harvard academic crowd with his public persona

when he stiffened up. one of the fascinating things you see with johnson, and maybe share with nixon in terms of their feelings about jack kennedy. is that real resentment for northeast elite, you know, we came up the hard way, and the real distrust and anger and resentment at these perceived elite. talk about how that motivated him and was a row contrast between he and john f. kennedy spent i think energy presentment for the harvard come to call them, or the northeast establishment. and the kennedys in so many ways epitomizes that. what he was a, he would call meetings together in his office. it's very interesting, i look at this table, and three people from yale, two people from harvard, one person from dartmouth, and the president of the united states from southeastern, southwestern texas university teachers college. it's an amazing thing.

i think he did resent them in a certain respect but one could almost see him say, i'll show these ivy league boys what this country boy can do. and in some way, you've wielded his country fight texas pursed out almost righteously to show these folks. but the interesting contradiction, again this is a man who is so complex, so rife with contradiction, the almost model a presidential personality which he only assumed in front of the cameras. and it was completely contrived. at nothing to to do with johnson. it was totally inauthentic. and if my friend, a longtime columnist and new johnson, cover johnson said it was a nervous about of the harvard faculty. because it just wasn't quite

johnson. and the way that johnson was so effective is when he was johnson. just let himself he himself. that's how he got things done so effectively. >> that's probably a good opportunity to segue into a semi-softball which is your favorite johnson story, the one that kind of archive we communicates that persuasion. >> there's a conversation in the book that i recount, and it would be almost impossible to relate it and do it justice to the almost have to hear it all really. at its johnson calling the founder and the president of the hagar slacks company, and he's ordering slacks, custom-made slacks. and it shows his penchant for micromanagement and his tendency toward crude at his worst moments but he gives very

specific anatomical detail for how he wants these pants to fit. and you can't make this stuff up. if you saw this on "saturday night live," you would call that far-fetched. that's ridiculous to but it's true, it really happened. and i will say of the 643 hours of taped telephone conversations, which are featured prominently in the book, there's not one that even comes close to this level of crudity. but those who knew johnson don't deny -- it's part of his personality, his personality is so broad and so deep that he was certainly capable of that. but you've got to hear it. >> it's pretty remarkable evening transcript, let me tell you. but it does communicate a couple things. one, they talk about how he would fix a so intensely on achieving a certain goal. in this case getting a pair of

pants that fit just right. and nothing would stop them from achieving that particular goal. and at the same time he would say, flattery, he flatters them and then he criticizes them in this fascinating yo-yo that you see. >> at one point he said, now, you've got to get the pants here right away. i need them for summer wear down at the ranch. nothing is more important. nothing is more important than six pairs of customized pants. but at the very end of the conversation, joe haggard was completely taken by surprise the president of the united states is calling to order bans said, where should i send them? he said white house. [laughter] wonderful, just a wonderful -- >> it's a motivational tool for this nothing more important than this bit of pants. but if i can relate one more story. people will talk about difficult

it was to work for johnson. we might talk about that later, and he was. he was really a difficult task master. that nobody, he respected nobody's work harder than his. there's a wonderful story from a white house counselor in the lbj white house. and he talked about the days of the transition from lbj to nixon. and johnson want to make sure that everybody on his staff was taken care of, that they had a place to go after working, at the white house for him. it was part of being loyal. he held that up, the most important thing in politics from lodi. he said that time and time again. so pearson signs out of the white house, which you more or less have to do. the president got his log at the end of the day to determine who is in the white house and who wasn't there. and they did, given his penchant for micromanagement, he always been who was there. didier pierson goes out to los angeles to interview for a wide

shoe, from a very good top notch law firm in los angeles. and he is meeting with the partners in this beautiful conference room, and a secretary comes in very flustered and said mr. pearson, the president of the united states is on the line for you. the president is calling. and a partner system, delete partners with you know what, you need to take this. we'll adjourn and let you take this. take as long as you want. he gets on the phone and he says mr. president? mr. president i don't know if you know this but i signed out. i'm not there, sir. yes, i know. he said well, what i deeply, mr. president? nothing. i thought the call would help. [laughter] the. >> so that contradicts sort of the ruthless johnson that you hear of in war. and but who work for him had a story of this great generosity.

>> at that level loyalty what you said was the preeminent political virtue. when you look, and going through the transcripts, these are the presidential tapes that didn't get -- they really are seminars and political power, political leadership. what are some of the common traits, will talk about one in particular, that you see when you get this sense of johnson, you know, as it was in real-time trying to convince someone to go his way? >> you know, i think it's an indomitable will which led to the title of this book. he wanted things. by god, when he wanted them, he found a way to get them done. so you do the intensity with which he conducts the business of the presidency. it's interesting because while the tapes of richard nixon are a

blemish on the nixon record, they condemn richard nixon, the telephone case of lyndon johnson, we did know these existed. it was not revealed that it actually existed until after lyndon johnson died when his assistant let the then director of the lbj library, harry middleton, know that they were in a fault. so when the johnsons, when mrs. johnson consented to open event in the 1990s, they have no idea what was on the states, absolutely no idea. and as you listen to them, i think they should very positive light on the johnson legacy. >> when you look at the johnson legacy, i think at the end of his administration people were preoccupied with vietnam. it was a big fact of our foreign policy as was domestic policy, but how do i think civil rights is as vietnam received an emmy, the legacy of civil rights is

ever clear, ever more present in the daily lives and what led to his, not only we assessment as vindication, there's one conversation that's in the book where he's given the johnson trade in person to george wallace, alabama governor. and it's a remarkable interpersonal persuasion at a pivotal moment in history. i don't know if you care to maybe read it to the audience, on the left hand side. >> i would happy to do this. start here. he said, well, let me set the stage. wallace resisted the notion of sending federal troops into alabama within the voting rights issue was at play. and alabama was almost at a boiling point. and so wallace is called to the white house, and like jfk, lbj

had a rocking chair in his oval office. and he was 6'3" tall and he would definitely have somebody where john is sitting on a couch which is far lower than a rocking chair. and johnson would rock the chair of an literally lean over them and looked down at them. [laughter] and bear in mind, as i mention lbj is 6'3" tall and george wallace is five for tall. and so it's like a snake over a mongoose. [laughter] it's ridiculous. but i will read the passage. he said, so he is asking george to send federal troops in and wallace says i don't have the power to do that. he says, oh, yes, mr. president there's no point about that. johnson said and why don't you let them vote?

wallace said, well, i don't have the power. that belongs to the country registrars in the state of alabama. wallace said no, he didn't have legal authority. johnson says, well george, why don't you persuade them? he says well, i don't think i can do that. he said, don't tell about your persuasions powers but, you know, i sat down this morning. when i got up, all 15 tv sets, i will quote this, all three of the tv sets in my oval office were on and you were talking to the press, george, and you were hammering them, george. i heard you. you were hammering it. he said no, no, no. he said you were hammering and you're good that you were so good i almost believed it myself. [laughter] but then at the very end of the conversation, he says now george, you worked your life in

politics. think about this, not think about 1965. let's think about 1985. neither of us will be around but we will be dead. now, what do you want people saying about you in your state of alabama? do you want people to say george wallace, he built? or do of people to say george wallace, he hated. he was good, johnson was that good. and sure enough george wallace presented. we got federal troops and we eventually got voting rights act of 1965, which is the most important legislation in the civil rights. without the voting rights act of 1965 you don't have barack hussein obama in the white hou house. >> let's talk about johnson's commitment to civil rights because they confuse a lot of people to hear he was, one quote i saw that he was referring to

the stereotypes about himself before he became president he said oh, this old confederate, ask why am i advancing civil right. he had to review it and -- to get civil rights done. talk about the roots of his commitment to civil rights, has to do, the fact he grew up with poverty. is one anecdote about one of his personal aides recounting the trouble he had driving through the south. and in the legislature kills it took to pass this with bipartisan support. >> i think johnson, psychologist, he felt things deep, deeply. whether it be the stain of the judgment of the eastern establishment, or people living in poverty. and he called, he declared famously a war on poverty in his state of the union speech in

1964. and he said this administration herewith declares a war on poverty. you see it in his eyes. he hates the very notion of poverty. i think is a very formative experience talked about in a most important speech of his political life, 1965 when he is talking about the importance of life. the experience was between his junior and senior year in college he taught school, the very small town in texas which was principally populated mexican immigrants who are largely forgotten. and these kids had him in the image of these kids in poverty, and the victims of bigotry and hatred which is seared in his conscious.

and, his consciousness, and he never forgot those kids. and when he got to the white house he would say to his staff, don't forget about those kids, don't forget about the mexican-american school kids. his fight for civil rights interestingly enough was not just about african-americans. it was about the hispanic kids that he knew, but moreover, it was an attack on poverty. he didn't want to see people for and disenfranchised in this country. and he felt that deeply. >> if i could just talk about one, there are two stories that really show how the civil rights act of 1964 came about. civil rights act of 1964 which ended jim crow but really legal apartheid in this country. the first, you mentioned, richard russell was a democratic senator from georgia who was a friend and mentor to lbj. and he realized in order to get the civil rights act of 1964

passed he has to run over richard russell. and he invites into the oval office and yet this very testy conversation. and russell says, you know, you have the legislative muster to get the civil rights act passed. i don't think jack kennedy had it but you have it. i'll warn you, if you do it, you will lose the southern states to the republican party, and you may well lose the election. and johnson, this great creature of power, hears this and quietly replies, if that's the price for this bill, i will gladly pay it. gives tremendous political courage. while i think we think of johnson, we think about the meaning of lyndon johnson, all his powers and persuasion, how he ordered power and crazy.

but we don't think about the end, how he expanded the political capital that he garnered. and it was on things like that that transformed this country. the other story relating to this is in order to get the civil rights act passed, he had to engender a relationship with the republicans but he had to get them over to his side. there's a conversation i recount with the senate minority leader, everett dirksen, in which he says, and dirksen was from illinois. and he said i was just at your state fair in illinois. and i went to an exhibit at the land of lincoln and you are worthy of the land of lincoln, and i'll make sure if you pass this bill you get proper credit. and sure enough, the first time he gives out after signing the civil rights act of 19 cities for is not to mourn the the king, it's to everett dirksen. so he took a very strictly. there's a certain stability, the

way that washington behaved in that time. we don't see it in our current age. >> to that end, one of the senate aide to bobby baker, a quote her, she said was one of johnson's favor, if any any can pick a bar down, but it takes a pretty good carpenter to build one. and there's that sense of it's not about destroying, it's going to be getting the ball down the field. working with direction to form a coalition. what do you think as the master of the senate that he was, johnson would think about what the senate has become? and the kind of values he tried to instill to get legislation accomplish but also represent the national purpose behind the policy. >> his favorite biblical quote was from isaiah, come, let us reason together. and i'm confident if he saw washington day he would think that there was a dearth of reason and a dearth of togetherness.

i think there are a lot of reasons for that. i think one is that lawmakers said they don't know each other anymore. they don't live with one another. their kids don't play on the same baseball team or go to the same ballet class. their wives on the plane preached together. i think he would lament the lack of civility. i think that would be his greatest disappointment. >> in the intervening past several decades, and we're going to get to vietnam in a second, no question cast huge shadow over his legacy. i think in the '70s and '80s. those shared amount of legislative accomplishments in 1965 and 66, the way you could see him acting as both chief executive and senate majority leader, you know, that unique set of experiences that very rarely do we have in one man, that enormous amount of legislation that passed that really creates the america we have, talk about that bulwark.

after one window was not time to rest, it was onto the next thing. and then maybe why it provoked a backlash or at least didn't get the credit. >> yeah, i think he, he felt that political capital and amount to greenspan -- green stamps. you click stance and put them in the book and if you didn't redeem them you did anything for the screen stands. he wanted to collect his green stamps and he want to buy something, meaningful. and that's what he did with 1965. he knew that he was at the peak of his political powers. and he wanted to spend that in the right way. and 1965 our venture to say may be the most important year legislative it of the 20th century. maybe 1933 in comparison when lbj was ushering in his new

deal. but if you look him and actually in my office i have a shadow box, all of the pins that lbj used to sign legislation throughout the course of that one year. and in one box, the voting rights act of 1965, the immigration act, the most sweeping immigration reform in the history of america. you have the pin that creates the national endowment for the humanity and the national and the national endowment for the arts. you have clean air. you have elementary and secondary education higher education which is federal aid to education the first time. you know, results in soaring graduation rates from high school and college and on and on and on. it is astounding what this man did in one year. and he knew it wouldn't last. and it was pressure. it didn't last. so what created that clinical

capital was the landslide win of 1964. we are in a presidential reelect year i think anyone thinks that the current president could hope for a landslide of those proportions, but talk a little bit about what johnson approached that reelect effort against barry goldwater. coldwater defeats nelson rockefeller. the map against to shift. as johnson, the south begins to revote republicans the first time in that year but johnson i think had 125 states, maybe 24. talk about johnson's approach to getting that landslide win. >> well, yeah, it was no holds barred campaign, no question. i think that's a much johnson, it's goldwater. coldwater realizes he doesn't have a chance to win. he does realize that. he hid it in his oral history in the book. he knows that with the martyrdom

of john f. kennedy and the ascension to the presidential of lyndon johnson and the admiral job johnson had done in the first year, that the country doesn't have an appetite for change. this is not this moment it and i must say he is quite graceful about it. the two remained friendly throughout the course, and even have a meeting at the oval office in which they say they will not make race an issue in the campaign. knowing that it could be used by either side to divide the country and gain advantage. that's a remarkable moment, you know, where these two, given that the amount of history being made, the two nominees come together and say we will not, you know, we will not manipulate race for political purposes. he also had one of the worst taglines. in your heart he knows he's right which is akin to saying

take this medicine because it's good for you. it might not taste good. >> i thank one of johnson's reporters switch that around and said in your gut, that didn't help. but goldwater does come across just very gracious, and there is a sense of deep disagreement but civil disagreement that i think i speak to bygone era. and then johnson and his one presidential run really gets this unbelievable landslide. one detail jumped out at me, and then we'll go to vietnam, he left office with the only surplus until bill clinton. and that is so the opposite of what you think about the great society. >> yeah, you're right. he was the last president before bill clinton in 1998 i believe to throw money back. i think it was $3.2 billion to put back into the federal coffers. i will say, john, it was political pressure there, that the appetite for legislation

among the republicans in the house and senate had waned significantly by that time, and to a certain degree it was dictated by republicans. but johnson was very fiscally prudent. if you look at how much e-commerce during the course of the johnson years and how many programs went into effect, they weren't particularly expensive by today's standards. >> yeah, at least at first. let's talk to vietnam, foreign policy. one of the things that struck me in reading the book is how much johnson had been influenced by, as we all are, by the examples in his own lifetime. weakness in munich when he is a young congressman, what he perceived was perceived as fdr in the face of stalin in yalta and the aftermath that led to the cold war. even criticize ike are not stopping castro from taking power. and that life experience, this

determination that strengthened lead him into vietnam, down a road that he believes must be done in a this can be done quickly before the 68 election. talk about that, that approach to world affairs, maybe doesn't resonate across the generations as clearly, that conviction about the importance of indomitable will spent we think of the cold war, but, in fact, the domino theory hadn't played that. when neville chamberlain went to munich and struck an agreement, appeased adolf hitler in 1939, and came back to the uk and proclaimed peace in our time to quit now peace at all. what we got was world war ii. so what johnson says, a chapter, there will be no men with umbrellas. and he of course is referring to the hapless chamberlain. is not going to relent.

each really believes that he had to stave off the kindness of aggression in vietnam, because if he didn't in the other nations of southeast asia would fall. and moreover, it would embolden the chinese and the soviets to grab land elsewhere in the world. so he thought he was preventing world war ii, and believe that until his dying day, i had to take a stand in vietnam. there's an interesting conversation though, john, to conversations that i relate. both happen to be on the same day. one is with richard russell, again, his friend and mentor, democratic senator from georgia, and another is with -- [inaudible] and you can hear in these conversations is are found ambivalence over what's going on in vietnam. and whether he should escalate the war or not.

and there's one quote that is really haunting from johnson to cases, what the hell is vietnam to be? i can't when it and i can't get out. and it's so precious. >> but what i didn't appreciate until i really don't into this book is how much anguished over trying to find a peaceful resolution to the war, which is ultimately one of the reasons that he didn't run for reelection in 1968 he desperately wanted to spend his final months trying to find a peaceful, and honorable way out of vietnam, whereby the way both of his sons in law were serving at that point in time. >> in that famous picture we is anguished listening to the typical or is he is listening to one of his sons in law from the frontline. >> exactly. and you all may know the photo that john is referring to. he is bent over in pure anguish on the cabinet room table

listening to his son in vietnam relating his experience in vietnam. and it's interesting, we think of, in terms of iconography, the johnson presidency is book ended in tragedy. we think, of course of the famous photograph of his being sworn in on air force one in the wake of the assassination, and at the end of his term with his face down on the cabinet room table dealing with the anguish of the vietnam. >> and there's that sense that the country is slipping away from him so quickly, that johnson's genius, the human psychology is one on one but increasingly in that end of his term had trouble understand the math psychology of what was going on, in particular the protest movement to end the agony his press secretary describes it, johnson was in a state of unreality.

there's the white house bubble and not be able to cover in what was going on with the protest. >> i do think he feared, one of the things i've related, lyndon johnson robbed -- he didn't fear the protest. he didn't fear as much as he feared the hawks. he really worried about the other side, the conservatives is said that he wasn't fighting the war hard enough. it was a limited war. he didn't want the chinese or the russians to enter into it in a way that would create the threat. there was a very delicate balance he had to tread. he thought about every single day. >> and when he gets that memo saying the one dissenting voice, up to that point the wiseman had all been an agreement and then there's this one dissenting voice on a 75 page memo, and he

slowly realizes that maybe the dissenting voice was the correct one. >> there's one chapter that i devote to a memo, very few people know about. it's open to the public but it's a memo from the cia in which they talk about how, what would happen if you pull out of the vietnam? would be the effect on america and the world? and they essentially concluded it could be done. it's the paradox of lyndon johnson to he didn't do anything with that memo. i don't know what his reaction to that memo was. it was lost to history, but i think the real fear he had that it would have this tremendous demoralizing effect over the american populace, that we would lose our conference and we would lose ground. >> is one of the incident you recount in the book, in those waning days of the

administration. where he's trying to get a deal done and we find out it was actually actively being undercut by one liaison who is in communications with the nixon campaign. talk about that incident because it's fascinating and i haven't heard much about. [inaudible] the wife of the man who commanded in world war ii, and she essentially acted as a conduit between the nixon campaign and the south vietnamese. and she convinces the south vietnamese that they should wait, hold off on striking a deal, a peace deal with the johnson administration because they would get a better deal with the nixon administration. and johnson finds out about this in the waning days of the 1968 campaign. has vice president hubert humphrey is out hustling trying to win the presidency. and johnson doesn't do anything

about it, but he tells them he's just worried about what this revolution -- revelation would do to this world industry sensitive time. so he goes to hubert humphrey and he tells humphrey about it. and humphrey decides that it would be unpatriotic to reveal this in the last days of the campaign, it would be too upsetting, it would be too destructive thing to do. it's very courageous on humphrey's part, but you wonder what would've happened in history, if this revelation had been disclosed to the american public. >> one other revelation in the book regarding humphrey was who johnson wanted humphrey to pick as his vice presidential running mate. daniel inouye, the hawaiian sender. and he wanted to do it because it was one other barrier, johnson and pass the civil rights act of 1964 and 60, the buddy rice act of 1965 to eight

points the first african-american cabinet member, the first african-american supreme court member, and he wants hubert humphrey to do something historic with his choice of a vice president. and taking an asian-american to round out the ticket is the way to do that. and this is a phone conversation by the way, and humphrey says, you know, old conservative hubert, i just can't do it. and humphrey is anything but old and conservative. it's such a contradiction. >> lets talk about, we're going to take questions from the audience and a bit, but i think, i do think there's any way to round out the reality of men without talking about his life and labor johnson. the way that she is always steadfast in support of him, nick uriel personality, and that she's always looking out for him. one of the things i was struck

by is the beginning days of the courtship of beside the fact that her nickname was lady bird a fortunate johnson. i decided to try to set up initial, you know, correlations. so when you're doing an intense courtship, the book that would occur to me to give out entirely is not season, an assault on civilization. [laughter] with this inscription, this is remarkable, to byrd, in the hopes of within these pages you may realize some little entertainment and find we underrated here are some of the principles which she believes that which has been how to repair and respect, lbj, september 1, 1934. so this is a book about nazism. in 1934. well before they reared their ugly heads to the world. and it shows the worldview of this, new, ostensibly provincial

couple from texas. they have a great view of the world. but, you know, you can't assess lbj in and of itself. the johnsons were a package deal. and i think most people saw them that way. and whether things she talked about, as hard as it was to work for lyndon johnson, you had labor johnson sort of a buffer. one of the things she said, i always made sure i walked behind and said thank you. [laughter] and i really do believe they came as a package to. there was one aid in there, to the johnsons, who said, you know, most aids to presidents never have a meal with the president, and first lady. it was hard to get out of a meal with land and labor johnson. they really treat you as family. when you were at the ranch and johnson spent a fifth of his present at the lbj ranch where he could really relax, and still

conduct business, everybody? with the johnson. everybody paid around a large table. so they were truly a package deal. and i think it's easier to understand lbj when you understand lady bird. and i thought about this and it took me about two hours to construct a sentence that sums up the relationship to a certain extent. and that is, one wonders whether johnson allowed the demons to graze knowing that she would ward them off by quietly summoning his angels. i think she had that effect on him. her calm, she allowed him to pass the heat of the moment and think more deliberately about something. think of the long-term. because this was a very nurture your guy. >> in that, so many highs and lows such a comparably short period of time. and were talking earlier just

about the bracketing of his presidency from the cover of "time" magazine where he was named man of the year after the landslide, and it's a statesmen shot, and he's in a business suit and there's a small sort of, you know, he grew up in, though rural farm and he's got a visionary stare going forward of determination and indomitable will to answer years later he is depicted as team leader. is this great tragedy going on in public that very much it's in some ways that manic depressive quality of his intensity and his achievements and his aspirations and the way he left the white house. as a johnson scholar, as someone who feels empathy for him, do you get the sense that he is able to see beyond the horizon of that tumultuous, painful last year and see vindication? do you think that it was a case where imagery overtakes

accomplishment? that that perception, the public perception of johnson didn't keep pace with his actual represented a competent until now? >> you talk about those two covers. i will talk all more about the first, 1965 using the man of the year of time. as john mentioned, you see this picture of him, this oil painting strong and solid but it would be the envy of any politician, men of the year, oh, yeah. and then that three years later as a cartoon by david levine of lbj as team leader. and he's being kicked by bobby kennedy and ignored by every turks and. it's awful. he is turned into a cartoon. to a certain degree. but if you believe that johnson had the long view of history. i really do. and if you look at his accomplishments, i think you see that now. i don't think it was easy to see in 1973 when he died, for years

and two days after he left the white house, when the long, cold shadow of the vietnam war still very much in evidence. that in 2012, i think that shadow is beginning to see. again, we are beginning to see how the accomplishments of the great society continues to resound. i think he would be delighted, he sought just in his tenure poverty been reduced from 20%, one out of every five americans, the 12%. he saw that in his presidency. there were some things he took from the. he saw african-americans being recognized as equals to caucasians. he saw those, those things i think sustained him in the darkest days. >> i was struck on one final note, his parting gift to other world leaders was a photograph of earth from space. and that did seem to sum up his

longer view, but great pride he took about that mission. >> there's one great triumph, and that is at the end of his presidency, and that's the apollo eight mission which in some ways is as significant as the neil armstrong, buzz older and mission, apollo 11 mission with this landed on the moon. the lunar trip to the moon, for the first time a spacecraft had left earth's atmosphere and gone to them and. hubbard 60 miles from the earth's surface. and it happened to be on christmas eve when the astronauts, frank forman, jim lovell and bill anders, and they relate passages from genesis on the incredibly inspiring and somewhat dashed to wire him a telegram saying you said 1968 which is probably the most tumultuous year in american

history, some of the years of the civil war. so that, that is a parting gift to spank if i could go back to lady bird johnson very quickly before we take questions. and that is when lbj got married and it was after a six-week whirlwind courtship, which, in which -- this is a very reluctant ride, and he sort of beat her into submission, romance her into submission. and they get married and he has to hurriedly by a ring but he doesn't go to sears and roebuck. it's $2.50 range which lucy johnson still wears to this day. and well after he leaves the white house several years later he is on vacation in acapulco i believe. and he is berating her, why did it take you so long to trade in that ring and buy a new ring? i told you shortly after we got

married, go buy a beautiful ring but why did it take you three years to do that? and she said, why, darling, i'm just waiting to see if the marriage would last. [laughter] stick with that we will take some questions but we have microphones in either i'll. come on out. you can line up. >> i would like to ask you to comment a little more on bobby kennedy and lbj. >> well, there's no way to sugarcoat. that was a tough relationship. but to just were bitter rivals, enemies. it's interesting, my predator ship at the lbj library was a gentleman named harry middleton. and harry talked about having a very candid conversation with

lbj about that relationship. and harry characterized it, lbj, as kind of like will rogers. you never met a man he didn't like it and i would revise it, although kerry knew the man and i didn't, i don't think he never met a person he didn't want the affirmation of the. he desperately wanted people's approval. he would never get it from bobby kennedy, and he said we could have spent a lifetime trying to be close, but there was just too much divide. and i'm not sure it can be summed up better than that. they were just very different people. and i think that after john f. kennedy was assassinated, it was very difficult for bobby kennedy to see this man in the role that his brother had filled so eloquently and so gracefully. >> the kennedys are so cool and

johnson is not. will flip over to the other side. >> i'm wondering why johnson accepted the vice presidential nomination when he i think had a lot more power in the senate, and he couldn't foresee obvious he that he would become president? and then the second part of that is, as vice president, was he kind of relegated to the side i the kennedys? you know, you talked about how kennedy was inspirational and johnson was able to get things done and i was wondering if there was ever a time when they could work as a team and whether if kennedy had had a longer-term, in office whether johnson and he could have worked as a team to accomplish kennedy's agenda? >> let me answer your latter question first, and former question second. i think there's a great example of their partnership with that. and it illustrates the

personalities of the strengths of the two men. lbj was an early advocate of a robust american space program when it was, when our space program -- one of the pens eisenhower gives that when he signs the lawmaking, or creating massive is to lyndon johnson, which is such a proponent of, but jfk appointed him to head up the space commission when he becomes president, and he asks lbj whether it's possible to send them into the moon by the end of the decade, and lbj looks into it and he concludes yes, we probably can do that. ..

>> sam rayburn comes and tells him that he should accept the vice presidency. lbj ask very pointedly. he says, what he said today he said i should accept it when

yesterday you said i shouldn't. he said because if you don't accept it, just as god made little green apples, richard nixon will become president of the united states. that is something that rayburn, who just despised president nixon could not deal with. i think that lbj does it for the country and a large mentor. >> did he play any significant role -- i don't believe that kennedy ever introduced introduce any civil rights legislation? is that right? but i know there was frustration with wallace during kennedy's administration about letting the students at the university. i am wondering if johnson played a role as a southerner in any of that stuff? >> johnson uses jfk's martyrdom, in part to give the civil rights act of 1964 through. he says very pointedly to

lawmakers, this is what our president would have wanted. this is what john f. kennedy, our fallen president, would have wanted. you owe to him and his country. i don't know that kennedy could have done it. i think it would've been difficult for a lot of people to accept a northeastern democrat getting civil rights past. and i think it took nixon to go to china, the stark anti-communist to go to china. just as it took johnson to get civil rights. partly out of political viability early in his career. >> i'm sorry, but was he -- >> ma'am -- >> we will move on after this.

>> i think he was relegated to the vice presidential spot. so we didn't have a lot to do with it. >> thank you for waiting patiently. >> i have always enjoyed the story of lbj calling on bill moyers for prayer printed he says he wasn't speaking loudly enough and he said speak up, bill, and he responded i wasn't talking to you, mr. president. [laughter] >> true story. >> beyond that, i, of course, have a very deep spirituality and sophisticated social epic. i wonder what happened with lbj resource policies were concerned. >> it is hard to say. i think that you had a very close relationship. i think that bill was a surrogate son for a lbj. tom johnson was another.

walter jenkins. another aide that was sort of a son. they have a very close relationship. bill is saying that he is the prodigal son. there were some earnest between him when he left the administration. i don't know how the relationship ended, but i think he was influenced. they were conscious of the johnson administration. >> ticket one is a former speechwriter that i can't resist. the overcomes speech, what was their contribution like? >> i think that goodwin was a kennedy guy. i think his loyalties lie with jack kennedy. but his great contribution to lyndon johnson with we shall overcome speech, that is a speech that lbj gives on

march 15, 1965 after the bloody events in alabama with the fire hoses and police dogs and all of that. that is seen on national television by all of america. and we see for the first time, vividly, how racism is in the deep south. and lbj goes before congress and he talks about all the obstacles that people of color in this country face as an everyday fact of life. and he invokes the phrase from the negro spiritual that becomes the anthem and the civil rights movement, we shall overcome. he says, and we shall overcome. and john lewis talks about seeing that speech with martin luther king. it was the only time that lewis

saw martin luther king. and king looked at lewis and said we shall overcome and we will get this bill passed and we shall overcome. a very poignant moment. if dick goodwin didn't do anything else for lyndon johnson competed more than enough with that speech. >> yester? >> the military management was obviously a big failure. it was a three legged stool there. and the war we were asking for many troops. what is your view on the three legged stool concept. the fact that there were three people running the show over

there. >> if there were three of those people, you're probably thinking of dean rusk. >> i'm talking about who is most influential of lyndon johnson in the war? >> i can't comment on how the war was won militarily. ideologically, the reasons we were there were most clearly articulated to a lbj by dean rusk. dean rusk and force the notion that if you don't keep the communists at bay, we will get world war iii. i think that was a guiding principle that kept johnson in the and the fight in vietnam. but i cannot comment on how the war was won militarily. >> there are several slightly

contradictory views that you had here. one was of johnson resisting civil rights in the senate. and then having using kennedy's legacy and inspiration to say, do this for our former president, and then there is also the sense of his being moved by these events. to what extent was he interested in the civil rights -- it was -- was a part of the kennedy legacy that took him in them in that direction? obviously, it is complicated. >> you are right. you are absolutely right this is contradicted. this man, when he was in the senate, was from texas. he was representing texas. texans were fundamentally opposed to civil rights at that time. johnson come on, on the other hand, was an advocate for civil rights. from early on, his father was an

advocate for civil rights. he stood up against the ku klux klan, risked his own life in order to do so. when he was in the texas legislature. this is a man who believed fundamentally that all men are created equal, and he was determined to see it through in his country. but while he advocated civil rights act of 1957 and the civil rights act of 1960, he also allow them to be watered down. in order to get them passed. knowing full well that if they were not watered down in two places, they would not be passed. so they were largely important, and only because of their symbolism. but when you had the chance to do something -- when he had the chance to push it through 1964 when the time is right, he is pushing had little to do with jack kennedy, except for using jack kennedy as a tactic to get it through.

using the martyrdom of john f. kennedy, the fallen president, to get this through a reluctant congress. he exploited him, essentially. but i am confident, that given lyndon johnson's heart, that he would've wanted civil rights regardless. does that answer question? >> yes, it does. >> yes, sir? >> thank you very much. this is a question about vietnam. i've been thinking about this for a while. i think about all the photographs i saw a lbj in regards to what to do and what not to do and whatever. i just was wondering whether, in fact, you glean from any of the tapes that he felt boxed in, meaning that in regards to the cable cuban missile crisis, it was hard to perceive what could've could have happened when we came so close to nuclear

war. was it the president who said i'm not going to allow the military to run over me, right? based upon what happened at the bay of pigs. and i wonder if there was any influence on lyndon johnson, who is part of the national security council during that missile crisis that spilled over, and the other part that i see, especially today, although it has kind of changed a bit, but the joint chiefs, in particular, and the field commanders, always seem to have this one up thing going on in control of the military. did you glean any of that in his thinking at all? >> i think you hit on something. i think both jfk and lbj learned a lot through the bay of pigs and the cuban missile crisis

experience. one was not to trust the military at face value. the popster question was the recommendations. one thing that lbj knows from the beginning is that the military were asked for more and more troops. he said early in 1964, again, illustrating the paradox that he had with the war, no matter what i do over there, there will be killings. if i put troops in, there will be killing. if i don't do anything, there will be killing. and you can just tell that he's wrestling with it and he doesn't know what to do about it. that said, he does continue to escalate troop involvement. i would tell you that without question, his greatest disappointment upon leaving office, is that he did not strike an honorable peace. you think about the johnson

treatment and how effective he was one-on-one with somebody. and how he could influence somebody so effectively. if he would've had ho chi minh in a room, it would've been interesting to see what happened in that composition. at one point, he offers these porkbarrel promises to help ho chi minh. he says if you pull out of south vietnam, i'm going to create forms for you, not only in the south, but in the north. how can you turn that down? he couldn't believe that ho chi minh would reduce fat. no congressman from arkansas would bring money like that. >> just a comment, first on your answer to the woman's question. you have to remember, i'm sure you really know -- the civil rights act of