>> both the house and senate work in a separate versions of the 2013 farm bill. the current five-year bill expires at the end of september. today house agriculture subcommittee took up sections of their bill dealing with biofuels amounts of water and soil conservation. this is two and a half hours.

>> good morning, everyone. if you're not the subcommittee on conservation energy and forestry discussed energy and force to program and dance at the 2012 farmville will come to order. first of all, let me extend my apologies. those have a way of getting in the way of things here and so i apologize for the delay the convening of this subcommittee hearing. we really appreciate the patience of all of those who are here, certainly the witnesses and we are looking forward to hearing your testimony. let me get started by saying, you know, this is the final hearing of the subcommittee -- sheeran at the subcommittees will hold to review the farm bill programs before writing the legislation next month.

we had witnesses from usda testify before the subcommittee last summer offering this information on the scope and purpose of each program and today will hear from stakeholders to work with these programs and can offer insight on ways to improve the functionality. the first energy thad altman 2002 farm bill to help spur development of renewable fuels across real america was designed to help develop these stats for renewable fuels and increased energy efficiency as well as energy supplies for farmers and rural american spirit to decimate farm bill expanded the energy title and committed for the $1 billion in mandatory funding to existing energy programs. this money was provided for the purpose of developing advanced biofuels beyond corn ethanol. there's many examples of agricultural resources and money pennsylvania district that can be used for production of advanced biofuels. timber is a form of biomass to be used for energy of where he production. any tariff farmers use anaerobic

digester is to convert waste into renewable energy. programs such as biomass program better known as the cab were created with the purpose of developing dedicated energy crops to foster the creation of the next generation of advanced biofuels. this program has received $900 million in appropriations and i think it's fair for the subcommittee to ask whether or not the program has achieved its purpose and whether it needs to be offered in some ways and if there are new sources of biomass established for energy production as a result of this program. other programs like the rural energy for america program, commonly know as reid were expanded to assist rural america's producers and small businesses to implement efficiency measures and systems. we should be certain that farmville energy programs do not favor one religion over another and the programs are operating as congress intended. i should note that the last two

farm bills were written during more favorable budgetary times in a situation we find ourselves today with the federal deficit and increasing national debt. indeed 37 programs of the farmville do not have a budget baseline beyond its expiration, including every core program in the energy title. this means not only will we not have the $1 billion that was made available for the last farm bill, but we will not have allocated any mandatory money for continuing programs. this is a tremendous challenge in the fiscal times as they look for ways to cut spending and make government more efficient, yet still achieve our desired goals. our panel of witnesses will offer us feedback on what is most important to them in the energy title given budget constraints we face moving forward. our second panel of witnesses will discuss forestry in the farmville our committee's jurisdiction of forestry matters at the national resource committee.

our kurdish jurisdiction includes state and private forestry, land owner assistance programs, forrester research as well as general overs either before service. over the past year and half the subcommittee has been very engaged with the forest surveys, which as many do know is located within the department of agriculture. several members of the subcommittee, including myself have for science in their districts and appreciate forestry and supporting a healthy and vibrant burl americana. a proper management and the role before service goes far beyond the interest of the members of the subcommittee. the forest service manages 155 national forests, which makes up 193 million acres across the great nation. since the inception, the national forests have been intended for uses which include timber harvesting, energy production, mineral extraction and recreational activities. the forest he titles it to decimate bill included several diverse provisions pertaining to all aspects of forest street and

including such as participation in conservation and energy programs. but many of the forestry programs do not need to be reauthorized this farm bill, it's important to review these programs to ensure they are being carried out in a manner consistent with the purpose. we will hear ideas for improving program delivery for a forest land owners and those in the timber industry and we will also hear about polls a service can promote harvesting which is critical for forest health across america. in addition, witnesses on the second panel will discuss related topics such as how it fits into energy and conservation programs and regulation of forest lugging those. i want to briefly address a topic of forest road regulations and say no to fix several witnesses today. i've been very concerned about this matter since the ninth circuit ruled last year the forest roads can be considered a point source under the clean

water act and therefore subject to permitting process before any trees can be cut. the ninth circuit decision has been appealed to the supreme court and if the court does not choose to get the case, it is likely the epa will move forward with the plan the decision nationwide. proposing a tremendous economic burden on lockers, forest owners and everyone who depends on these groups. this would be an unnecessary action given that the best management practices administered by state since 1976 have worked effectively and not put an undue burden on the forest products industry. now, we will continue to monitor developments as the epa must forget the permitting process that i believe congress must act to clarify the state specific management practices. there is adequate for protecting water sources. for the regulations are necessary, carry a heavy burden for rural america. what you think of witnesses for being here today and look forward to working with you as we move forward on this process and i now yield for purposes of

an opening statement to make a member may collect from pennsylvania, mr. holden. >> tremont thank you for having the internet that you think of witnesses and guests for being here. this presents an important opportunity for members of the subcommittee to look at usda energy program in defense of the next farm bill. the to decimate farm bill included many new provisions to ensure american agriculture will play a role in moving country towards energy independence. the bill also expended many renewable energy programs originally authorized in the 2002 farm bill. to decimate farm bill encouraging their towards advanced biofuels by promoting research, development and demonstration of biomass renewable energy. the bill also provided close to $1 billion in investment demonstrating a promising but fragile industry our commitment commitment -- demonstrating the renewable energy production. unfortunately implementing many of these energy title programs has been slow, leading to

uncertainty and industry we intend to strengthen and support. it's also unfortunate that farmville energy title does not have mandatory money for these programs once the bill expires. this process in a difficult situation made even more so during this challenging fiscal environment. similarly, the forestry title impacts land management in the 155 national forests and 20 grasslands and the national forest systems is not have any mandatory funding. to accomplish our goal as a well-managed agency dedicated to forest stewardship that continues to meet the needs of present and future generations, we must make sure her forestry title policies are fulfilling the mission of the quality land management for multiple uses. at the same time we have to ensure forest landowners continue to have access to conservation programs in order to further private forest land conservation. to sustain healthy, diverse and

productive forests and expand renewable energy, we must all work together to make certain we spend taxpayer dollars wisely. thank you for having this hearing and i look forward to hearing from eyewitnesses. >> i thank the gentleman. the chair would request that other members submit opening statements for the records. the witnesses may begin testimony to ensure there is ample time for questions. i would like to welcome our first panel of witnesses, who are now seated at the table. this first panel will be hearing -- were joined by the honorable jim greenwood, a pennsylvania congressman and sometimes going back to the state legislature days. he is currently president and ceo of the biotech knowledge industry organization located here in washington d.c. were also joined by mr. ryan stroschein.

excellent. he only come in this world and it's one thing. that's your name. i hate to mess them up. great. director of agriculture energy coalition in washington. somewhat of a neighbor of mine, neighbor and just over the line from geneva county, mr. steve frankfurt, owner and operator for farms. mr. jerry taylor, president and chief executive officer, cofounder, said oil biomass llc in columbia, missouri and mr. kerry hair, chairman of the national bio diesel bort washington d.c. so welcome, gentlemen. thank you for being here to bring expertise and experience to the subcommittee hearing and congressman greenwood, please begin when you're ready.

[inaudible] >> jim, you're out of this. >> i usually have someone do that for me. so chairman thompson and ranking member holden and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you and i appreciate the opportunity to be with you today. i am the president and ceo of the biotechnology industry organization. bio is the world's largest biotechnology organization that was an 1100 members worldwide. with this broad membership, innovative industrial and agricultural biotechnology companies are developing new feedstocks biological catalyst for production of advanced biofuels can renewable chemicals and bio-based products. because these feedstocks manufacturing methods and products based on plants and biological processes, they are more efficient, sustainable and environmentally friendly.

importantly the development use of biomass fuels and chemicals is an american bio-based -- an american bio-based economy by necessity cannot be outsourced to other countries. 10 years ago this week, less than the attacks of september 11, president bush signed into a farm bill that for the first time embraced the vital role in american farmers and foresters can and must play in producing domestic energy and therefore improving national security and rural economic prosperity. because a bipartisan congressional support in 2002 and again during the to decimate farm bill from agricultural energy programs are revitalizing rural communities, reducing firmer dependence on support programs and ushering in a generation of advanced biofuels, renewable chemicals and bio-based products to the cost of commercialization.

in short, the farmville energy programs are working and bio member companies are beginning to put steel and the crown. please allow me to share with you a few examples. there's the first slide. in the bio in the point bio are opening the indian river county bioenergy cenobite forwarder within the next few weeks. the refinery is a major land work for this country and its first commercial cellulosic refinery. as you can see us for real. the refinery is so valuable farmville energy initiative held to obtain debt financing from a farm credit agency with a long history of working with usda lending programs. landing in turn created over $130 million in private investment for a project that will produce 8 million gallons a cellulosic ethanol and six megawatts of renewable

electricity per year for renewable biomass such as yard waste or municipal solid waste and create 382 rector and direct jobs. raising private capital investments to build the first kind of facility would've been nearly impossible in today's financial environment without the bio refinery assistance program. i'm not sure what you doing there, but i'm going to get the next slide up if that's possible. there we go. that's via cams project in the colorado using biotechnology breakthroughs to convert fast-growing poplar trees to chemicals and cellulosic ethanol in central oregon. other valuable farmville energy program that biomass crop assistance program helps farmers in the counties surrounding the facility to grow the trees of

defeat of the demonstration project in the commercial facility when it's completed in the next few years. via cams commercial refinery will employ 100 people and has several hundred million dollars in local infrastructure and will also provide employment opportunities to another 442 people. posada based in warrenville, illinois leverage and they assistance program to secure private capital for a commercial scale cellulosic by a refinery in greene county, alabama. it's expected to create as many as 1000 new jobs. farm energy -- farmville energy programs such as the bio-based markets program are also fostering innovation and domestic job creation the renewable chemicals and bio-based products that are. this is a project of the marion. it's one of our bio members investing in the united states

by building a $30 million-pound per year commercial success neck acid by your refinery in lake providence, louisiana. by your refinery will create 50 full-time jobs and will revitalize the port of leith providence. the bio-based markets program is expanding consumer awareness of promising alternatives to petroleum direct chemicals and products to a consumer labeling and prefer procurement procedures. open a bio refinery assistance program to renewable chemicals would further accelerate these promising technologies. i written testimony, which you have before you include several additional examples of the tremendous impact energy title programs are having and rural economies. biotechnology is unlocking potential of agriculture and forestry to create new opportunities like these for rural economic prosperity and energy security. farmville energy programs such as bio refinery assistance

program, the cap and bio-based markets program in combination with the complementary federal policies like to renewable fuel standard are supportive tax policy center speeding technologies to commercial reality. it is vital for nations future that we continue in this meant in america's energy and agricultural futures as the committee acknowledged when it passed mandatory funding for these programs in the bipartisan bill that passed the committee last month on a vote of 16 to five. i urge this committee to do its part as well and to reauthorize farmville energy programs with meaningful mandatory funding. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, mr. greenwood. mr. stroschein, please proceed with your five-minute testimony. >> thank you, chairman thompson, good to see you again. i appreciate this opportunity.

many of his ransacked two, codirector of the agricultural energy coalition. i was raised a farm in south dakota, which icann is still operates amazing first-hand the growing impacts the production of rural economies. the agricultural energy coalition is a diverse group of agricultural renewable energy and environmental organizations or private companies to represent a broad spectrum of renewable energy, energy efficiency and bio fuel, bio power in just his created the energy open in the farmville is continuation of these findings that will make them more effective. in 2002 the farmville's recognizing the potential for american farmers, ranchers and entrepreneurs to create bioproducts of resources these foundational policies of emergency sustainable agricultural into a growing reality.

a continued commitment to goals will accelerate this momentum and is a vital component of the all of the above energy strategy that has significant bipartisan support in congress. across the country party scene successes from initiative says mr. greenwood pointed out. first by refineries will produce biofuels in florida elsewhere. wind turbines are powering farms, ranches and california. solar systems used for a variety of farm business purposes and bio-based products such as bio plastics components are produced in safely pennsylvania and other places for industry applications. and the southern baptist slave mothers. they have relegated seven months of its total funding to the programs. yet many new feedstocks, fuels and technologies are on the cusp of commercialization. those programs have funded projects and leverage tens of millions of dollars in state and

private sector investments that would not have materialized about these programs. it's a significant job creator. usda is a bio refinery programs alone have potential to create as many 700,000 new jobs. the bio-based markets program has estimated to have the capability to create 100,000 new jobs in these programs along with the rural energy for american program is among the core programs that our coalition is supporting and encouraging the congress to reauthorize and fun. without ongoing commitment, america's leadership position on energy and bio product innovation without. other countries are poised to leap ahead of us in the global race to commercialize energy technology and jobs will go with them. this would undermine economic, energy and environmental national security and to put the u.s. in a position of purchasing and importing technologies from foreign countries in the years ahead. and the title programs are the heart afraid that cover the

entire renewable energy byproducts and energy efficiency landscape. wind power works very well in the midwest and solar power works across the country in the west in the south. biogas potential is huge in my stomach and dairy areas in manufacturing has already begun to develop new industrial hubs in the potential to utilize biomass exists from coast-to-coast. in other words, every corner of the cultural benefit because programs allow them to exploit individual inherits a national resource basis. the agricultural committee agreed these investments in energy title programs are worthwhile by adopting a bipartisan farm that maintains a mandatory funding for programs and makes improvements to several core energy title programs. the coalition supports the outcome and believes the final farmville should include these investments. rural america has been at the epicenter for nations burgeoning renewable energy and bioproducts industries and farmers, ranchers and small businesses already begun to realize benefits.

american agriculture and rural communities have demonstrated the ashburn osm, optimism and tenacity to continue to develop these lucrative new industries provided the tools to do so. a continuing commitment to farmville energy title programs will permit expansion of american energy jobs, foster cutting-edge technology to export to the rest of the world coming materially benefiting the environment and national security to ensure we continue to lead the world and development of these new industries. for these reasons we are still committee in congress to reauthorize these vital energy programs and provides us mandatory funding that will enable them to continue to do their good works throughout the life of this next farmville. thank you. look forward to your questions. >> thank you, sir. mr. reinford, proceed with your testimony, please. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i wasn't aware until i actually

got your invitation that you are one of my neighbors, so is a joy to be here with one other pennsylvanian. this is my first time ever doing something like this and i feel privileged and honored to be here. i'm not quite sure how to turn it about, but i don't have a preparation time. i too think the time for sharing my experience in this business for eight years. 80 or sharing my experience on renewable energy. and thanks so much for the incentives i got from usda and some of my bank guys helping me. we actually put up a new system. so i'm going to share the thought of that story. one of the main reasons i did it was because the reduction in pennsylvania i did have a job and then move entire area here. a police officer in his complaint was i went to work and

we actually put together this system. i guess a lot of people are looking at what i'm doing and that's one of the reasons i'm here to share and hope they promote this technology to move forward in the next years ahead here. the additional income i receive from the first couple years was actually managed to do some other technologies and other things to bring in a farm action in the last income statement we got there that profit was $300,000 in dairy farm. that's pretty good. when you start making as much money, it's really kind of an appealing thing to us here. so that's what's really drawn attention. it's really environmentally friendly. the community likes me. i haven't had a complaint. right now as i sit here i think there's probably 24 at dave and

pennsylvania. were shooting at 2829 by the end of this year. so we are kind of a front runner i think in renewable energy for digesters and i'm kind of proud of that, along with some other states here. i experience started when i sent my son to college. when he do that you never know what to come back with. he actually got me started in this whole type elegy of renewable energy. right now i guess i'm one of the front runners in pennsylvania, so i'm here to tell my story i'd much rather be back to plant corn. i am here to hopefully promote this technology or continue to move forward. it's very economical and practical. one of the things i want to familiarize myself with. it's kind of a different thing. you take the time of the newer for food ways to make energy and supply energy to your neighbors and everybody seems to like that. that technology does for.

it's amazing technology and it's really coming alive in the state of pennsylvania. i can say i really haven't been in other states. i taught to an older gentleman and he's a guy who got me started this whole thing. i did a lot of research on what before i got started here. i took a lot of duplicate and turned around good profits. resized or digest for a thousand cows, close for future expansion ever going that defense working with me. i did know how they could get in pennsylvania. that causes large dairy. two years i got a phone call from a partner with wal-mart and some grocery stores wanted to know if i bring in some other source of food waste so i started putting food waste in a digest and we actually doubled production.

it is three now were tense energy and am hoping somehow we can partner with food waste industries can be a big part of agriculture, especially in the dairy industry and hog industry and we can take that and put it into something that can make renewable energy. it's a win-win for everybody and for the community and economy. we power right now about 800 -- 80 and 100 houses, trust fund for the whole form. it's kind of an amazing technology. he technology. he used to be a waste product for s. people turned that into a commodity. it's just another amazing technology. the heat from the generator is her reaction make a lot of our money off us. they got that technology, everything in the barn. you can read the paragraph dare come in the pasteurized milk dried corn. i just bought my wife a chevy

volt and so were actually powering our transportation office energy and that's kind of anything for us. it's got a lot of attention. we came down to washington with her chevy volt and ran out of energy coming up the waterway and they couldn't find any outlets to plug it in. little sidekick there. the deciding factor for me for putting the system in place is actually because of the grants i got and also from the local banks themselves. i'm a big supporter of this whole technology and some company. i just want to say a big thank you for my family. i have another picture. i think you guys got my paper i sent them here on the addendum. i wouldn't be where i met without my son. i want to see thank you publicly. and i hope during the next generation in dairy farmers. i'm not used to running on the time clock tiered sorry about that.

i'm passionate about this technology and willing to stick a neck out to promote this for future generations and for agriculture. it's an amazing technology. so thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, mr. reinford people make sure the folks in washington who can't find a place to plug in the revolt that there is a farm. >> we recognize you for your testimony for five minutes. >> thank you, mr. chairman. make member holding, thank you for the invitation to testify in the energy bill, the title programs in particular the biomass programs or be cut. and jerry taylor, president and ceo of msa and cooperative in mystery with her 8000 members and supplies full text the and propane to customers in seven states. it has a long history in making

renewable fuels innovation, starting in the 1960s, mfa produced ethanol, more recently in the early 2000 was entered into bio diesel production and into ghazni began writing the next chapter in a renewable energy story, biomass. in 2011 took a major step forward in partnered with howitzer energy to form msa biomass from a separate small business to lead the cooperative into this new renewable energy field. i will focus today on experience with the cab, but for more innovation please refer to my written testimony. when usda issued the final rule, the status quo, be catholic is a classic chicken and egg challenge. at commercial scale biomass facilities or to have sufficient feedstocks, then an established large-scale energy crops or as exists. conversely, if crop production

is to occur, then a viable consumer base must exist to purchase the product, end quote. in our experience, this could not ring truer. it is a difficult process to educate farmers on a strange planet called this camp is shaky and tedious. just two years ago is a crock that is too expensive and planted by hand. usda's in 2011 to fund a project areas of the window of opportunity that allowed us to leverage a planter and lower the cost of planting. to that end, be capped with essential to bridging the gap with our producers to take up the for fee. today, 225 family farmers have dedicated a curse to the new energy crop and we anticipate this number will grow to over 2000 as their combined project scale up to maturity at 50,000 acres per region. ..

the pace of implementation deutsch of the domestic funding cuts of 2012. despite our significant successes, the absence of clear direction and for all policy is forcing us to scale back in each of our project areas. if we are in a situation where it is impossible to plan six months out alone the three to five years necessary to run a business. consistent funding is the story here. expanding our renewable energy

industry cannot be done in a laboratory or in theory. farming is advanced by doing. you cannot bear all the complexities of such a unique job and independently skillet to hundred thousand acres in the four project areas after one year of funding. a program is funded one day and has a mother ultimately to do more harm than good will lose faith in the industry. i strongly support reducing our nation's deficit and tackling the rising debt. in fact, u.s. farmers have led the way of establishing a fiscal record that is unique among federal policies. i understand tight budget constraints will be a major issue in the 2012 farm bill and encourage the review of all the programs in doing so i believe you will find it is wary of the continuing and should any funding be available for the energy title i strongly encourage you to directed

towards the game changing program related to the programs functions. most importantly, the usda needs to have the flexibility to see existing projects through to maturity. to advance opportunities for the former members and we are overcoming the chicken and egg problem unsuccessfully leveraging the cap the way it was intended to testify and look forward to questions. >> thank you mr. taylor. now i recognize the chair for five minutes as the money. german thompson, ranking member, members of the subcommittee and full committee on behalf of the national by a diesel border i'm grateful for the opportunity to testify today regarding the farmville energy title.

i am vice president of sales and marketing for the renewable energy group, a leading u.s. by a diesel producer headquartered in exile. our company has by moody's and production and facilities in minnesota, texas, iowa, illinois, and we are working to reopen the facilities in louisiana, mexico and kansas. our focus is on converting natural oils and grease into the evidence to biofuel, and currently i had the privilege of serving as the chairman of the national bio diesel board, a trade association i will refer to as nb. it's a carvin replacement fuel. like diesel fuel is used in trucks, trains come agricultural equipment, mining operations, generators and heating oil. wiota eisel is used in the diesel engines without modification and it's made from

a broad diversity of feed stocks including recycled cooking oil, agricultural baliles and animal fats. there are approximately 200 fallujah eisel production facilities across the country, and last year those plants produce a record 1.1 billion gallons of advanced biofuel breaking the billion dollar gap for the first time in our industry short history. by comparison the u.s. uses approximately 55 billion gallons of petroleum diesel fuels each year. our trade association works closely with a number of diverse feedstock organizations including the national rivers association of the american soybean association, the united states come all association and the national restaurant association. we've production facilities and all but a few states across this land in fact 13 of the distinguished members of the

subcommittee have at least one plant in your districts including representatives lucas, peterson, thompson, holden, gabus, mcintyre, calls, owens. the other nine members of the committee headed by moody's and production facilities located in your states and estimates those plans and others like them across the country support of more than 39,000 jobs in all sectors of the u.s. economy in 2011. this generated household income was more than $2.1 billion created more than $5.8 billion in gdp. many of our production facilities are located in rural america where in many cases they are the primary economic engine for the local community. in addition to creating the direct manufacturing jobs, our diversified peace documents

include product represent expanding markets for u.s. farmers, livestock's, renders and restaurant owners. given this overview, you can understand why program supporting coyotes laureate critical piece of the next farm bill. in particular we have a strong interest in the two existing formal energy title programs. the bio diesel fuel education program, section 9006 coming into the vital energy program for the fans to biofuel, six in the lead to delete section 9 of five. it is a vital role extending the marketplace and use of lie zero diesel and we urge you to continue the modest funding for the program and. with the help of the bio diesel fuel education w industries conducted market outreach investor coordination fleet and the trucker outreach, petroleum supply chain education, by a diesel research and we work cooperatively, the pmaa, the

look of determination and the society of independent gasoline marketers on key infrastructure education. we also garner support from the manufacturers currently 34 u.s. automakers and engine manufacturers warranty to injuns to accept the use of b54b20 ducks by moody's all 05% or 20% many are now promoting the bio diesel capacity capability coming in for example, ford has recently began featuring the emblem prominently on the side of every new ford super duty truck. finally, because this agriculture committee we should talk about tractors are covered under warranty for use in john deer, new holland and international equipment as well as the lawn equipment such as fairness and toro. in fact many new tractors are warranted up to 100. in addition to the education

program, we are urging the committee to reauthorize the bioenergy brigham for advanced biofuel. the program has helped the industry maintain a stable and expanded manufacturing base as we work to establish ourselves in a competitive marketplace the petroleum industry. by a diesel is part of the all of the above energy strategy and a recent oil price strikes should remind us why this is important domestically produced alternatives, we can reduce the influence of the global forces such as opec have over our economy. a concept that is well understood by consumers to purchase gasoline and diesel fuel. recent gallup polls found that roughly two-thirds of americans including the maturities from both political parties support continued incentives for developing american made alternative fuel. in conclusion from the u.s. by a diesel industry is proud to produce the only domestic commercial scale advanced biofuel that is readily available and accepted across

the country the capacity feedstocks to increase production and further expand markets for agricultural feed stocks and the farmville programs that we have discussed to gain a substantial presence in the u.s. to a marketplace product to testify on behalf u.s. by a diesel industry we look forward to working with on the development of the form of a continuation of the programs and support the growing u.s. by a diesel industry. thank you. >> thank you. >> there were votes now in the house floor just a minute or so ago. my intention is to read we will get through ten minutes of questioning which will be and after recess until after this series is over on the house floor. the plan will be that we call reconvened to minutes from the start of the last vote on the

house floor to give everybody a benchmark, and i appreciate release patients on that. so, the chair would like to remind members that they will be recognized for questioning in the order of seniority for the members that we hear the start of the hearing. after that members will be recognized in order for libel and labor she the members understand and recognize myself for five minutes. you mentioned that biogas can be utilized in existing natural gas infrastructure. can you elaborate and talk a little bit more about this and what kind of future applications and opportunities might there be for this energy given your. i have access methane and using it for trucks using a dump truck

to haul so utilizing that technology is the next step. there's a farm in indiana they are compressed so that is the kind of thing we're looking for the next generation. if we are making 200, so there's other opportunities. we are self-sufficient the only thing we can bring something else in your we could be that as we are looking at right now. >> we are looking at the cng but trucks, tractors, that sort of thing. i look at the numbers come is that economically something that works for you in terms of making that convergence? >> we have the fuel for flaring off that methane. the numbers are about a dollar 60 the larger i get the numbers come down, so right now that technology needs to be improved and they're still working on that to make it affordable for the dairy farms and so the

making it more affordable. >> thank you. >> you suggested that energy programs such as the market based programs are fostering innovation and cited the refinery and given the very symbols of how these programs dr. innovation especially the innovation of the new technologies. >> certainly. thank you for the questions. the newest part of all of this is really the ability to convert cellulose into sugar that can then be distilled into ethanol and we have known how to take the part of the planned and come turn it into sugar to make it corn whiskey, and before that, but the cellulose part of it, the stems, the stocks, the wood parts, they have evolved over millions of years to be structural and hard to break down, so the challenge is how could we find and use

biotechnology to develop enzymes and can actually break down that material and that is what our companies have succeeded in doing and that is what we are moving towards commercialization with. the ability to take the two crops when they took the corn kernels and able to use the corncobs and corn stocks to be able to use by yo products for the forestry industry to be able to use the switchgrass all of that on land that may not be that useful for the agriculture. this is the advanced biofuel which i think the nation as ultimately if we succeeded the will give us the benefits that you heard for energy independence and environmentally sustainable way of producing

energy. >> what types of policy or eligible the changes would you suggest that the dollars are being spent where they were intended? >> i think as we all know it got off to a rough start with matching payments, and i think that is a testimony to the difficulty of solving the problem. but the one recommendation that we would make would be that the project -- there's a tendency in the rules to try to spread the money as many as possible. my suggestion would be to allow the usda and the fsa would be the number one recommendation. >> thank you. i would now recognize for five minutes questions.

>> just to set the record straight besides you and the chairman mr. greenwood we are proud pennsylvanians as well and we know your home county is pronounced notte juanita. that didn't work out too well to read those on the committee that were here in o2 and inouye are proud of the work that we did in the title. the super committee had no mandatory funding. the united states senate committee has $800 million. we want to fund as much as possible what we are in difficult waters right now. if we could only find three programs, with three would you recommend to take the money from to fund those. >> that's a fair question. it's difficult for -- >> clearly the budget situation

is very austere and we have to make tough decisions. i don't know that i can name three. i did name for in my testimony we think that these programs, the energy programs have demonstrated their value in the national interest here and finding the resources to keep the funding going we are very supportive and appreciative of the work the senate was able to do to find $800 million of the programs and it's less than the 08 bill but it's still a significant investment. we think there are environmental national security and economic benefits of doing this. we encourage the committee to do that. i don't know that i have a silver bullet answer for you to how to find the money with these are vital programs and we will work with you to try to find that funding. estimate our priorities would be that the refinery assistance

program by yo based markets program certainly carried to the to serve to for 12 years i am listing the streets of the nation in terms of the spending problems and budget. the farm bill as a whole as a subsidy bill and it's a question of establishing priorities my messages to you folks on this committee is to be very visionary in terms of where is the future for our children, and i would argue that the future is going to depend upon our ability to make fuel and the ways and we haven't been able to before and science has brought us to this point. surely, the commercial of the market will take us the rest of the way. what we need from this committee is the rich from the bridge to enable these entrepreneurs out there to demonstrate the carvel ability of these technologies

are quite confident that once they do with these loan guarantees and so forth it will come in and the country will be off on the grand adventure. >> i think the priorities are not just among the decisions within the subcommittee programs but as well as national priorities most analysts would predict that what we would see in the global energy costs for the next decade or going to be substantially higher on an average level than we fall in the last decade saw a lot of the programs which was a very difficult chicken and egg problem to solve this has made i think the possibility a very successful results more possible because the bar is innocence lowered because of the price of energy being significantly

higher. i think that is one reason, and the other when we set priorities 75% on oil in this country and cellulosic fuel a renewable fuel standard to be 36 billion gallons by 2022. we are just on the cost of making breakthroughs the we needed to make and largely because of higher prices and oil markets there's a great deal of activity of the entrepreneurial activity to solve its problems to cut the legs out from underneath these programs at this time would be bad timing because it is all starting to work at this point. >> i astor patients we will

recess and reconvene for further questions for ten minutes following the start of the final vote. thank you. >> [inaudible conversations] >> i apologize for the recess we had to take. the only good news i can share

is the votes are done for the day so no more votes are on the floor. at this time line pleased to recognize the gentleman from ohio for five runs. >> thank you mr. telemental holding this hearing. i've always been excited about the agriculture of the major solutions on our energy to make us move toward energy independence. a couple questions. on your digester when you run your very through it, what is after, what is left. >> what's left? >> we've run into a process and we take all of out of it and that is one of the biggest in comes that's come off technology

and we are betting that they did irresponsible counselor we are running around 120, 120 marks and that is a big plus that the dairy industry. a good quality of milk in that figure. the nutrients as a change it doesn't take the nutrients out but it changes the form. it's more available in the first year of the planning so that is a big plus for us as farmers we double crop a lot so we actually by no commercial fertilizer accept the nitrogen we need so it is a big plus all around. >> i couldn't quite hear you. >> it's more available is that? >> that's right the form of the nitrogen. that depends on the universities as a study and so they tell me the first year the use of most

if you don't get it through the digestion that takes up to three years that is a big plus for the early digesters and the whole way of some of the watersheds and the nutrients will do all of them are telling conservation that's one of the reasons i've been so excited about this digesting is because it's creating energy sources and it's also has to do with the environment and it uses phosphorus we are putting on the crops in the first year it becomes soluble some medical supplies a big part, the second question. there's lots over in europe and we are doing some in my area but there's still only about 200 in the country.

what do you see when you talk to the farmers in the big roadblock to put in the digesters? >> that's a good question, too. the number-one thing is for us farmers educating us. i'm not doing some of the pioneer work going from different places and educating farmers and as for some of the seminars in pennsylvania just by seeing the efficiency of the digestion germany right now it's like 6800 digesters the have 100 dairies and i disagree with that we could go with the small farms and be very profitable with more digesters. >> aware what ballpark would you think would be the congressional cattle investment of small digester and how many cows would make it feasible? >> that's a good question.

if you allow last to go down as low as 200 cowles and that is the thing that is making it so profitable we are bringing some of this other food stock like a waste from the other food chains coming on board but i need more digest so we could go to as low as 200 of 300. >> what would require? >> my digestive costs me 1,000,000.1. that is how much funding. that's the whole thing. some of the regulation is there with the new voters talking about a billion and a half, somewhere like that. i've proven it can be done and can sustain a soft but we need more support to keep the farmers encouraged and say look there's money out there available to keep this technology going. but yes, it's good stuff. >> a quick question on the be capped what can we do to make it better. >> congressmen, i think we --

the one issue is a strong tendency to try to diversify to take as many projects in as possible and i think even though i can't comment of the people at the usda enough for sorting of the complexity of the different programs because they are very complex and trying to understand them, but the emphasis needs to be on the programs to maturity, not just shotguns. they need to have more of an emphasis on the whole maturation process so the money doesn't just fall down their rattles. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank the gentleman. another question to ask and extend to whoever on the panel would like to respond. the initial goal of the energy title in the 2008 farm bill was a further development of the voluble ethanol and advanced by

yo fuel however i'm not sure that a single out one of commercial sales have been blended into the fuel supply so it's a two-part question for the panel. what changes need to be addressed to address that issue and does the current energy title provide the tools to move towards the of fans that commercially viable cellulosic of ethanol? congressman, if you would like to start -- >> as i mentioned, first of all we have been in patient as well. one of the things that slowed us down was the recent recessions that made it tough but as i mentioned in my original opening testimony, the plant is literally weeks away and the structure is complete it and they're going to be producing cellulosic at all literally

within the next couple of weeks. so, we have demonstrated the science is there and can build a commercial facility and not being able to demonstrate that we can move the fuel into the fuel streamed for motorized vehicles is the final step to prove the whole concept. >> congressman? >> if i make one short statement on that it since it has become common knowledge globally that we are actually amassing a significant amount as an example but 6,000 acres even at 12 tons per acre that we produce to produce a million gallons of cellulosic ethanol today we have had in misery companies as far as japan come to missouri because of the awareness by

cellulosic at them all technology owners of the fact that prison oil is significantly higher so they are more competitive but they are finally figuring out of the chicken and egg problem, which is you can develop all of the technologies that if you don't have a biomass, you have a mismatch and it does take a significant amount and because of the cap and what's happened just in our northern ohio congressman project area and northern arkansas and in misery we've had numerous global players come to missouri to investigate. estimate you asked about the biofuel and why i can't speak to the cellulosic one as commercially available today, and from our standpoint the bio diesel education program which

has an honest account of funding, we asked that that would continue because it does help and it's very vital to us having the marketplace acceptance of the school and marketplace comes from the advanced standpoint it is here and is available and is being accepted in the marketplace, we just need to continue that effort. >> thank you. we recognize the gentleman for colorado for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman and the panel for being here first a kind of comment for giving me hope with maneuver in terms of becoming a fuel if you need more supply we have horses in a very productive and i would be happy to send out to you. mr. taylor i guess i would like to ask a question because i am intrigued we told a subcommittee hearing in is the small business that i chaired talking about the campus to again test as a very productive crop to be able to

put out, is that applicable for areas like colorado and the desert? >> it is more tolerant. our furthest established it does better but it can survive less water in fact in the 300 propagation field which is northwest wichita kansas received only 7 inches of rayner and is the only thing alive out there and produced half a crop and survived it. so, it does survive and prosper in areas that would be typically east than what you expect. >> you comment in your testimony that you would like to see the existing projects through to maturity. can you define a little bit with maturity is and when you expect to receive that? because part of a ridge of obviously as well as the stories of the taxpayers' dollars we

want to be given to see these. it needs to be all of the above and our alternative fuels to be a will to reach the point they're actually competitive and affordable without the subsidies and ultimately in the marketplace. can you speak to that for me, please? >> yes, congressman. i spent several days in washington and the last year since we have applied for the funding last winter i've had almost no conversations about exit strategies, in other words the conversations or about initial funding what you're going to do and what your vision of the programs themselves don't seem to have an emphasis on okay if we get started what is your exit strategy to get off the public trough to see a return on the investment and we feel we clearly pointed that out we needed a three years because

biomass is different than if you are funding a single technology. we are not trying to do that. we were trying to break the chicken and the egg cycle pity we have to get enough biomass in place to the technologies and bring them even to this country not at a particular locale to see the three-year window it will be sustainable on its own and we will be doubled to build those reserves. i believe it is going to be the next we got a lot of reserves in my area on public land did and down the standing timber. the areas we have all over central part of the country set aside which pays farmers not to plant. a lot of that ground we have had several people that have the land that would like to get out of that program and come to this program. it's a perennial even though you have one year of the erosion and

it's in place for 1520 years from the conservationist and it looks nicely. those pieces need to be put in place. >> one thing i think many of us have a problem with is the continual overreach when it comes to the regulatory process and in your testimony the current for regulation of will advise the effect of pulling the plug can you tell us how some of the regulations you are incurring retinol or inhibit your ability to be able to make the product if product? >> welcome the environmental assessment process is very worthwhile particularly planted any numbers in this country. the regulations, i'm not sure in that statement if i understand

looking at the regulations as it pertains just to this crop -- >> i have a question on your statement where you've noted some regulatory and additions in terms of being able to move forward. i think i am referring to how the regulation is written. we have one year worth of funding, we have a application this year and may not receive anything which seems preposterous to us when we are actually a successful production because the emphasis is on starting in june of many new project so they can get going rather than seeing through to fruition in biomass because it's not a one-year event it takes a long time you have to do.

>> thank you mr. chairman. i yield back. >> i recognize the gentleman from wisconsin for five minutes. >> thank you mr. chairman and to the camel for coming. i will start by way of mr. -- is becoming more popular by the day. would you share with the panel what type of capital expense you had to invest to put the digester technology on the farm? >> back in 08 it cost 1.1 million. >> how much of that was subsidized through the program? ma a loan but the pure subsidy grants? >> we had 50 per cent grant money that was through the heart of this grant.

>> 50%? >> the rest was low-interest. >> roughly about 550,000. >> that's correct. >> how long will it take to pass it back? >> two years. >> am i safe to say that without the subsidy it would have taken four years? >> this past year we had a good year simply because of bringing the food waste and from other sources and that is to defeat. so that gives us about one-third of a percent of our income that's coming from the tipping fees. silda for the farce that don't have access you're going to be looking down at probably five, six, seven years, but i will say that going through the process right now he has a road racing the replacement. he's putting a digest in with the new regulations he said a billion .6. so, the regulations are changing since i was there but the cost

is higher. we are finding ways to make it profitable, more profitable, let's put it that way. estimate other forms are as effective as cow manure? >> horstman your camano. >> copay of manure is good. we have a central pennsylvania operation going real well. on the exit strategy, this building are the closest thing to be eternal life with a government program and one of my concerns as with all of these programs if you like to respond in the timeframe we have here i former business owner it seems to me that business owners have

a tendency to build pricing based on of the subsidy is and without the exit strategy the you're always back here wanting the program to continue because now they've established a marketplace based on a false market promise be low-priced product how do we know we are not just falling into the same trap here with you all? >> i can only speak to the biomass portion of that but i think that the rule as written with absolutely the sinking was so dead on the top of the chicken and egg problem that came as we have received in the biomass didn't go to the mass came to the farmers they get them to commit acres into the program and knowing they are in the program that we went ahead and invested the money on the environmental assessments which are hundreds of thousands of dollars in designing a plan with

an english company actually that we are producing in the center of kansas to plant this. it was planted by hand two years ago. the biomass is making all of those investments and what's happening the role they play is the integrator is a very complex problem to solve because nobody knew where to start. it's not only in on existing crop for the most part in this country it's a non-existing industry so registered as a huge problem some of the fits and starts in the industry originally isn't what it was intended to do. it was intended to break the chicken and egg problem. the crop now is being planted the need to plant enough of it so we need a critical mass to support the processing facilities to attract a 25 or

50 million-dollar cellulosic ethanol plant which we know that is advancing and takes 25 to 50,000 acres in this campus and the one project in central missouri we have to demonstrate that our three times rest that amount of available this is land that doesn't compete in the food versus fuel debate this is land for the most part that is nonproductive i think was very effective many spent get it did exactly what it was supposed to do but it can't be done in one year. it takes one, two or three years and we didn't have a planter when we started. we were planting 5410 acres a day. >> is it possible that we are going to be here five years from now and another three years? >> in the technologies i couldn't answer that. >> the concern is, mr. chairman,

cannot yield two more minutes? the concern obviously is as technology advances there's always going to be the need to fund more technology and at some point the industry has to fund its own technology, so i appreciate your feedback and i would like to go to mr. greenwood. >> what we have done to bridge the gap is we have the three projects underway one as the traditional for us operation which we've developed to be all to supply agricultural meaning. that simply was 100 furnaces in play. the second one is the plant is rather remarkable and how it changes the structure down four and 5 feet and misery is made up the foot of somewhat topsoil and it's very drought resistant because the water doesn't go in and in northern arkansas the reason we are in arkansas is a state wanting us there because the kids a lot of the soil that's been abused we have had it and please is.

5 feet down you can break it apart. there's a similar amount of organic matter in the soil and we are changing the complexion that we are processing not signed the contracts on the first installments of sewer waste water, the epa and waste water projects that were paralyzed and cities in the midwest right now. you're actually planting this as we change the complexion with the forced below ground contracting to take that. even those types of offshoots would never have happened if it wasn't for the program they started to establish, so what we are doing is finding several industries are rounded to bridge the gap to get off the public trough. we know when that happens we have a solid plan for three years. >> you have a unique perspective on this.

what's your take? >> you're why is to express that concern looking across the energy spectrum. there are sources of energy whether it is nuclear power or oil and gas subsidized for very long time coming and particularly if the price build some of subsidy it can't compete without it and then you have close. that's not our vision. our vision is we will in a relatively short period of time, because of the assistance of the loan guarantees, which have provided the private sector with some sense of confidence they can invest in the $140 million private dollars and in a plant that is now ready to produce cellulosic ethanol and our scientists believe that this product once we go through this scale of the pilot planned full-scale commercialization phase will be able to compete

head-to-head with gasoline particularly as we know if the price of oil not headed down, so we think it will be competitive and we don't think we have to be back here year after year after year when we have all been replaced by others with the same story i think we will have a success story to tel. >> thank you for coming. mr. chairman i yield back to the >> thank you for bringing your experience and testimony and i would ask if any of the members have further questions, via expect a proper response back to would be appreciated. thank you. at this time i would like to calvo witnesses from the second panel. welcome our second panel witnesses. we have mr. john burke free the chairman of the board of trustees and the american forest

foundation from would further virginia. the state for mr. west virginia president of the national association of state foresters out of charleston was virginia. mr. charles holmes, the chairman resource policy group of the national association of conservation in alabama. mr. richard procurement manager on behalf of the american loggers counselings off the eastern from florida, and mr. michael jordan and executive vice president of the society of american foresters in bethesda maryland. and looks like our second panel is seated, so why now recognize mr. burke if he would begin with your five minutes of testimony. >> [inaudible]

>> thanks for allowing me to appear before you this afternoon i extend that to train thompson and ranking member of holden as well as the other members of the subcommittee. a bit of an introduction, we manage a family forest in central virginia. i also have the privilege of working with the american forest foundation, a nonprofit organization whose mission among others is to encourage healthy forests. we speak for 10 million landowners, those are family forests and private land owners. allow me to set the stage for my testimony. the property and manage for our family has been in the family for six generations we grow both plaine and hardwood from those trees we produce paper products are paper products all produce profits hard wood lumber dimensional lumber cabinets

florent fuel wood and other uses in addition to these very important products which are important to the economy of our state and produce jobs we also pride ourselves on the water quality we also pride ourselves on the wild life they are nothing more than half the tab for the species that we cherish today i would try to truncate my oral testimony so that we end on time. i'm going to focus my comments on the two particular areas to thank and encourage this committee and to recognize the importance of the farm bill in strengthening conservation programs the second area of testimony is to speak about --

to eclipse the csb and we have been able to do things which would not on the financially viable without the assistance of these programs we improve the wildlife habitat and water quality and reduce the risk of fire through certain techniques. we've created jobs for the local holders and have improved the health of the forest.

we have realized that this committee in congress as a whole faces a significant budget issue, and my request to you would be with that recognition of cutting has to occur forestry and conservation programs will not be cut disproportionately. my second area of focus in my oral testimony, and by the way i refer you to the testimony for additional details on the first point as well as the second point is that the usda markets program is miss focus or an interpretation it does not fully support product set come from our farms with respect to forestry materials. we are pleased that german thompson and the congressmen are considering this is an equity and considering a bill which will be entitled to the forest product fairness act to better

square what is going on with what should be going on and in particular this is a program that could be changed without incurring any additional cost it would stimulate and opened and level the market for the product particularly with respect to the traditional forest products and could be of little or no cost which seems like a win-win all around. in conclusion, we appreciate work of this committee both past and future and hope that he would continue these forest conservation programs to enable the landowners like myself to continue to be good stewards of our land. thank you. i look forward to your questions. >> thank you, mr. burke. please, go ahead and proceed when you are ready. >> chairman thompson, members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear today

on behalf of the national association of the state foresters and two-thirds of america's forest in the state and private ownership, state foresters deliver outreach, technical and financial assistance as well as fire protection and partnership as well as the forest service and other u.s. agencies other recommendations for the 2012 farm bill endorsed by the state foresters that support the conservation and management of the nation's force. my written statement includes a complete set of traer eddy the commissions from the ansf. it is a lot of the statewide resource estimates and strategies was an important outcome of the 2008 farm bill. these action plans provided analysis of the conditions and trends in each state and they have a pretty role in urban

force landscape issues scenarios. common among the threats identified in the action plan include the invasive species, fuel loads and wild fire loss of forest to development, threats to the urban and community forest, the action plans also provide long-term strategies for applying state, federal and other resources to where they can most effectively stimulate and leverage the desired action and engage multiple partners state foresters recommend that to the 2012 farm bill providing the necessary financial and analytical support to implement and update the action plans. ansf joins the farmville coalition in support of the recommendations that helped implement the forest action plans.

the coalition recommends including strong provisions for the forest and conservation programs, strengthening forest outreach education research and inventory programs, combat in the forest related invasive species, improving forest market opportunities. included in the stronger provisions in the conservation programs, the ansf supports the consolidation of the conservation title programs providing the forest land owners a eligibility is maintained and a streamlined program we recommend the 10% on they acres enrolled in csp allow them the same access to the program enjoyed by farmers and ranchers. strengthening of the outreach education research and in the

interim programs for this inventory analysis program managed by the forest service in the inventory system for accessing the health and sustainability of the nation's forest across all ownerships. they provide the central data related to the species composition, forest growth rates and delivers baseline inventory estimates used in state forest action plans providing strategic tradition for implementation at the programs including completing the transition to a fully implementing program and agency for esters and other users of fy a data to reevaluate the list of chordata variables with a greater cooperation between state foresters and the research station leaders.

>> come bunning before is related invasive species, the early plant detection of surveillance improvement programs at the u.s. animal and plant health inspection service is vital to the rapid detection and response to the destructive invasive species. ansf supports continued authorization in funding. improving the forest market opportunities, reauthorization of the steward of contracting authorities is essential to helping the forest service restored the healthy systems and provide sustainability and employment opportunities in the rural communities. ansf supports the reauthorization of stewardship contract authorities which is currently set to expire in 2013. these represent conclusions and

consensus to points driven by the forest action plans authorized in part by the last farm bill. thank you for this opportunity and i stand ready to answer any questions that you may have. .. my family has used a variety practices over nearly 200 years.

including cross sensing camera station upgrade thing, war trial subscribe. we received our first farm plan and 1939 and we have been certified tree farms since 1941. we have a mix of pine and hardwood on our property and in 1999, we reintroduced to our property. we currently have a bar is managed plan and rich forrester to assist us with our forest management. the importance of conservation cannot be stated enough. that is why an acd supports the passage of the 2012 farm bill. conservation districts throughout the country have been strong participants and supporters of the stewardship programs, which provide tech ecosystem and, play-by-play partner soon on industrial partners. since the program's creation to

this produced over 270,000 resource management plans by more than 31 million acres of private forest lands, developing a sound resource management and conservation plan is the principal tenant to nacd. nacd is one of the four partners of the joy of forestry team, including the forest service, and rcs, the national association of state forestry spirit of forest manage the plan but the team is help develop serves as the primary guidance to and rcs service providers. i served as chairman of the joint forestry team in 2010 and saw firsthand the value of the team provided to not just the stewardship program, but the forest industry as a whole. on my own land in the southeastern united states facing direct benefit of the forest stewardship program.

my work with the pine restoration has been in part a product of the stewardship program. to date i have restored more than 700 acres in an effort to restore this forest. second, the forest legacy program has done an important part of conservation district by allowing landowners to protect environmentally important forest areas from expansion and by engaging with locally but process to develop conservation plans. while the senate 2012 farm bill framework now includes a program of $200 million annually, i do not leave this cast will be a negative impact on being able to successfully carry out responsible conservation. insects continue to be direct havoc on our forests.

i am particularly devastated in the forest throughout the western united states. insect infestation and deceit has a direct impact on our members and furthermore at their livelihood in danger due to the loss of timber and the increased risk of wildlife. conservation districts feel that more needs to be done to address the mounting problem in the farm bill framework we have seen us a step in the right direction. in conclusion, the farm bill programs show a track record of success in every dollar spent testing the return. the forest titlist critical in ensuring the sustainability of our forest for generations to come. i am happy to answer any questions you with a set committee may have. thank you, sir. >> thank you, mr. holmes. now i yield to the gentleman

from florida, mr. sutherland for the purpose of an introduction. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i would like to thank you for the opportunity to hold this hearing to review for street energy programs in the 2012 farm bill. as many people may not be where my home state of florida agriculture project over $16 billion is infused into the florida economy from the manufacturing and distribution of forest products each year. florida's products industry and forestry contributes and supports many communities in congressional districts in over 133,000 employees of florida's forest industry and it just provides an enormous, enormous economic bedrock to our act community. the apalachicola forest is the largest u.s. national forest in the state of florida and resides in my congressional district. i'm proud today to welcome a witness from our district. it's an honor to welcome richard

schwab of perry, florida and my congressional district, a third-generation lawyer with over 32 years experience in the forestry industry. as representing southeastern producers association, including 500 businesses in florida and south georgia sos the american microscopical. i commend mr. schwab for his commitment to strengthen the future for street for his family and for a community. i yield that. >> thank you, mr. schwab. proceed with your five minutes. >> thank you, mr. thompson and mr. sutherland and i appreciate the opportunity -- >> just give me a second here. i apologize. i do just want to do housekeeping thing. i introduced for unanimous consent request. >> i think the witnesses for an issue that's important for this to committee to deal with. unfortunately going to have to go, but they too have unanimous

consent to submit testimony from a statement of land trust alliance for the iowa natural heritage foundation, pacific trust, society for protection of new hampshire forests of vermont land trust to be reported at the subcommittee on energy and conservation on giving states more conservation options for implementing the usta forest legacy program on i.c.e. and questions i'd like to submit for the record and have unanimous consent. i think my colleagues for the courtesy and would like to submit that for the record. >> with that objection. >> thank you very much. we need to work together for the right reasons. thank you so much. >> i apologize, mr. schwab. go ahead and start over with you five minutes of testimony. >> thank you, mr. thompson. i appreciate that. i'm a third-generation lawyer who's worked for the past 22 years and has been educated and

trained like i think that the best management practices and i'm the proud master locker. i'm here today representing the family small business. we are timber harvesting company and we've been practicing sustainable forestry for 52 years. i'm also representing southeastern what producers association which represents 500 businesses in florida and georgia as well as the american markers council representing harvesters in 30 states. our first concern is directed towards the inventory and now the program itself. the faa program is the best resource we have available to measure outcome and plan for the future force. the data files to be used jobs. i personally work with other companies to develop new markets in a region of the country. the markets are established and located based on the availability of the data appeared me ask you to reaffirm the u.s. forest service inventory and analysis program to enhance the program sufficient in effect mess.

that's what i detected a stewardship contracting program. it offers forest managers the use of alternative contract messages on federal forest lands. stewardship contracts are used for treatment that promote healthy forests and reduce fire hazards while expanded business business and job opportunities. my family small business has worked into in florida since they were first opened. it was great to see revenues from the timber sale used on two different national forest in florida at the same time. violence cameras and wildlife habitats for improved or created. we urge congress to permanently reauthorize stewardship contracting authority in 2012 farm bill. next would ask you to reauthorize the national institute of food and agricultural renewable resources extension act. maintaining the current funding levels. the company is personally work at the university of florida extension my harvesting new types of biomass and other

tender crops on their projects. i personally have seen the scots and i'm very excited about the future growth of different crops without extension i don't know the research from happening. other items found in the current bill to section 841, a provision for calling timber contract options. the passion of the two guys may find that would be safe to say our secretary of the economy is in a state of economic depression. purchases that are contracted for sales during this time are left holding contracts that are now priced too high for the hardest without incurring substantial financial losses. i personally know many of these small family-owned businesses that they contribute greatly to communities for unemployment rates are still hovering between 15 senate 20%. small family-owned businesses need additional time on these contracts as we continue to wafer markets to recover. please extend 841 for timber

sales awarded during january 12,008 and ending on december 31, 2010. there's also a reason the energy title of the farm bill we have attention of our harvesting community. first we would like to see its current definition as britain maintained in the 2012 farm bill. we need as broad based definition for renewable biomass in any energy policy. this is very important that business because two thirds of our production is based on producing endless chips for renewable energy production. we also don't favor any program that would allow for the artificial existing market. the biomass crop assistance program is a prime example of a well intended federal program gone awry. our company personally to part of the program and experienced nothing but major market disruptions and extra paperwork. while existing facilities

loroupe the process to cut their operating costs, there was no new facilities to establish our area of operation as a direct result of the program. the beat cop program might have worked for the agricultural sector, but it was a disaster for our business in the harvesting committee. the last program i would like to address is the fire station markets program under the current law products has received the program. we would like to see language of the 2012 farm bill that would create parity is enforced in a bio-based products by inserting language that would focus on products that applied in innovative approach to producing bio-based products regarded by the date of entry into the marketplace. i'm personally working with a company called american progress, a company that has completed construction in alpena michigan and will be taking wastewater from existing plants and easing the way succoth can

produce ethanol. it's a perfect example of an american entrepreneurs and at its best with the company realizes what it took to make the investment. thank you for allowing me to provide testimony, says he formulate the forest industry titled the 2012 farm bill and i'd be happy to try to answer any questions you might have. >> thank you, mr. schwab. we now recognize mr. goergen. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i am goergen, american forestry chief executive officer and vice president and i really appreciate the opportunity to be here today to talk with you that important programs and an important part of the american economic picture when you think about forests and pleased with this panel. much of what i would like to take this morning as i said my colleagues here today come watch as outstanding alternative save as much time in your busy schedule that they can. with that said, like to point out that we represent more than

12,000 people across the country of really dedicated their lives to the professional management, care and protection of america's forests. folks are really committed themselves to ensure that the forests of the united states are taking care of them managed in the best possible way. some of the programs contained in the farm bill is very important to their ability to do their jobs. you've heard them today and i'll touch on them as well. it's also other items that they could discuss, including contracting authority and also the dean machine issues that we have, particularly in the western part of the united states. why think about stewardship contracting in particular, i really want to talk about the success of the program that really started off as a pilot project to see how things work or to make sure the tool is something that can be used on the ground that the forest service in bureau of land management can benefit from and be a benefit for the taxpayer as well. the truth is the contracting

authority has been very successful for both agencies. we also would like to advocate for permanent reauthorization of contracting and really it is a big success story. we treated over half a million acres in the united states is stewardship contracts. we actually awarded somewhere over 900 contracts in the last five years. we continue to increase contracts as many as 200 are conducted last year 2011. now with the authority expiring in 2013, we are concerned it's not permanently reauthorize, momentum the forest service and bureau of land management have put into contract in may scale back or not be invested the way we think it should be. this is an important tool because it allows agencies to exit the business. many of you on land understand what happens when you pay project being done on your particular land.

someone comes into forest management and reduce fire risk on your property. maybe there is a covert they needed to be replaced. you get the contractor to do that work as well. this can be done through contract and they really was not allowed through the federal agencies before. they had a separate contract for that, for another piece in this allows them to put it together, select contractors and get to work on. when i think about western pine in the not the time, i have to tell you a very sad story. since 1997, the olmert told he has devastated more than 41.7 million acres across all other ships in the u.s. the estimate up to 100,000 dead trees are killed by beatles alone fall to the ground every day in southern wyoming in northern colorado. 100,000 trees falling every day damaged by these beetles. we've got to do something we've

got to do something soon. much of the forest in the west have really created a perfect storm for problems. more mentors have poor forest management situation in many places and we need to do something about this in a critical method fashion. were encouraged by many in congress or call for increased forest management action in these hectic areas and we really support trying to do something about it, including language in the farm bill that can help expedite the forest service says treatment of these on the list. i'd also like to touch on sas recommendations for the 2012 farm bill. it included several improvements by supporting conservation and forestry practices throughout the country. the 2012 farm bill were barely hoping the committee will pay close attention to recommendations of the farm bill coalition, which we very much support. we understand budget pressures you are in there.

it's a very difficult time to be thinking about spending money. some programs are quite critical and we ask you to think about programs that improve conservation, strengthening outreach, education research and particularly industry to analysis program which is one of the most important fundamental building products and really doing what we can to improve market opportunities and really focus on the fantastic green building materials we have in the united states. thank you for your time and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you, mr. said tree. i will take the opportunity the first five minutes. my first is for you mr. said three. i think one of the unique opportunities we have an aristocrat needs in the agricultural committee as the forests can be a great source of revenue given all the public land that have been secured and

continue to be setting some of those i do with just tremendous resources for this country to be a greater return on investment if we are promoting the proper healthy management, which includes harvesting. just a little more clarification. utah about the stewardship contracting authority. what makes the stewardship contracting authority unique and are different from other contracts? >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. it's interesting to talk about the forest service as an asset they have because it really is an asset. if you go to get the page on the kaufman called the forest ranger come he talks about the forest service be one of the very best agencies in the federal government. not only in terms of the way they were structured, the way they were management, but the fact they returned money to the treasury every year. you're exactly right it's a

tremendous asset. stewardship contracting is different for the forest service and bureau of land management because they're able to address multiple needs under one contract. they're able to keep on a locally to get the work done. they're able to actually use the sale of forest products from one part of the treatment they made accomplished on a stand and use some of the money to improve something somewhere else. so the forest service wants to build a camp ground because there's a good man, they can sell a little timber over here, but a recreational facility over here. if there's a wider issue, they can use some of the asset they have right there on the ground and improve that work somewhere else in their forest. the fact of the matter is, this authority can really help the agency that helped the congress in terms of trying to ensure the assets we have in our forests are used in the best possible way. i really encourage permanent reauthorization for supportive

delivery. >> mr. burke, you mentioned right now usta file-based markets program fabric as products made from your force despite a peace. can you tell us why this is the case? >> to read the legislation has been incorporated for the regulations that had been drafted, there is language that requires it would be a new product with a certain date. if you look at projects that have come off of my farm, an example would be hard work needed to palace. this palace that come from overseas made of hemp, which compete and get it the way the lane and also with you at a federal agency would have to perkier overt and instead of product made locally on that farm. and i think that is an understanding consequence of the legislation in a recommendation is the playing field be leveled

so that all bio-based products, whether they are traditional or new will be recognized and create more jobs and stimulate the economy. that is particularly important in the forest industry at this time because the forest industry is still struggling with one of the worst downturn since the depression. >> similarly i have concerns the current ratings system utilized by leadership in energy also disadvantages forest products. as you agree with this? is this your observation? >> well, i think what we would like to see is a level playing field so that her care meant can be leet or comparable or other recognized sustainable resources. so we would like to see a level playing field with respect to procurement across all of those categories. >> i have seen data suggesting that in pennsylvania we have

lost over 13 s. and 500 jobs. and the forestry said during the last few years i appreciate your mentioning. i say i assume we introduce legislation to the bio markets program to better recognize forest products. i'm obviously with the code that we at least stabilize job losses. not just in the state of pennsylvania, but throughout the country. i appreciate your earlier remarks. i'm just checking to see if he would agree that it's a step in the right direction. >> i will be blind. we think it's a brilliant solution because it's cost neutral. it will stimulate markets. it will create jobs and i think it's a very wise and sound decision. >> i appreciate that. i've been called a lot of things. this is the first time my name and brilliance have ever been associated with same statement.

now recognize the purpose for five minutes of questioning mr. goods from ohio. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and thank you all for coming in today. mr. dye commie talk about h.r. 872 committee bill committee bill is sponsored to pass out of the u.s. house of representatives in archie yuriko 2011 by super bipartisan majority in the united states senate. i know you share my frustration. i wanted to ask you a couple things about that. the duplication and permits. the first question that that aspect, are you starting to see delays since this was delayed all through last year that the u.s. epa and states have started implementing it. the second part of the question was a reporter couple weeks ago i cite concern that because of this there might be pesticides used that are in a less strict

manner. i don't know how else to say a comment that we'll get of the species test. i think you mentioned herein your testimony you talk about we can have problems with reestablishing forests in managing areas. do you want to comment on those two areas? turn the microphone on. >> the use of herbicides, pesticides are essential and certain forestry operations to establish regeneration, new forest and we have worked with chemicals for years and find that some are just much more effect did, dave and are environmentally safe and sound and duplication of a chelation does not seem to make sense.

and i guess i answered question number 21st. what was your first question? >> since the legislation hasn't passed, when u.s. epa at the states has to move forward, you know, one of the things i talked about last year was the concern there could be literally thousands of permit applications and just overwhelm the regulatory agencies epa at the state and federal level. are we starting to see that progress happening in the permitting? >> quite frankly i cannot answer that question right now. but i can find out and will report back to the committee. >> okay, because i'm really concerned it's not just pesticides for use in the forest he or agricultural, but also mosquito control districts and i think we're going to see some very negative consequences this coming mosquito season. another question, mr. dye, the

ninth district court ruling making forest roads point sewers, can you explain how best management practices for us is going to get a permit to be a point sewers, what is the best solution and how big of a problem is this issue? >> server, being from a neighboring state of ohio, west virginia as you may be aware i want to say we have an excellent program in that state and others surrounding states were also very similar. where we work with the logging community and ensure that be in peace are installed and bmps is basically handling water and small quantities to prevent erosion and sedimentation said the state's waters.

and all states across the nation have varying degrees of this program. but it's something that the state forestry agencies have handled for 35 years or more. we recognize the importance of it and we feel that this is being handled and anything further would simply be duplication and added expense. >> would you agree that just going in forcing producers, farmers, whatever to go to mps permit and accept certain models coming out, it doesn't really solve the problem. it would put regulation on them. and hopefully most of the best management practices provides custom paperwork. is that true or what i have a favorable impact to get to where you want to be quick

>> correct. i totally agree with that. >> yes, i would just like to drop -- [inaudible] >> sorry, i would just like to add a little to that. in addition to adding costs, it could create unintended consequences. we can discourage a recovery market with forestry. we don't need those regulations because this farm bill had the wisdom to realize that voluntary incentive-based programs are more effect to send the hammer of legislation. i think that the bill, i think it was the cultural regulatory consistency act that proposed piece of legislation would be a good solution to remove the uncertainty hangs over the head of florida's landowners. i don't enter regulation is needed. i think the clarification of the statute would be appropriate and i fear that if it weren't for us

as some think it might under the ninth circuit, we could clearly have an unintended consequence of discouraging forests. >> thank you. it's hard for me to believe that this issue is an issue that really is causing a big major problem. obviously i'm forest roads and there's be tampering going on in that area and more traffic here for lots of times those are dormant and vegetation grows and just let me know if there's a big deal, how big a deal at this or should the epa or whatever be focused on other areas? >> i can did they think they should focus attention elsewhere because the properly manage forest road is a nonevent with respect to water quality under virginia's bmps, that will manage the water quality in a voluntary way.

on our farm, for example, we reestablish promptly any roads disturbed. a road by definition is to avoid random compaction. so you design them properly with water bars and use them when you need to and promptly reestablish a cover on them. if you do those things and that is what most good stewards do and that is that the bmps encourage, we've got a nonissue whenever these two points twice in epa. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. >> mr. tipton for five minutes of questioning. >> thank you, mr. chairman. you're running a brilliant subcommittee hearing today. i wanted to tap into i.c.e. a day to thank our panel for taking time to be here. mr. goergen come he spoke to something that speaks directly to my heart. and my third congressional district of colorado by some 70%

of the land is either federal, state or tribal lands. a lot of the force. 100,000 trades per day that she mentioned are falling enter for us right now are creating incredible challenge in terms of maintaining healthy forests, fire threat. she maybe speak to because we are talking, mr. burke was noting water quality issues. if these forests burn, what type of impact is that going to have on water quality? >> absolutely devastating, sir. if you look at what happened after the big fires in colorado, the costs are astronomical and those are individuals paid a great deal more in the city denver because they relied water from other parts of the state to be clean and healthy. the fact of the matter is when trees burned venezuela scoresheet doesn't hold water, and if that filter the water and the tremendous impacts and

reservoirs because they philippa sediment. >> would it be accurate to say if we do not follow prescriptions mr. burke another speak to now, to manage healthy forests, we will sterilize the soil with fire going through these areas and we talk about protecting waters, protecting watersheds in the west where we have maybe 12, 14 inches of rainfall that comes in a total year. it is in the best interest of this country, the environmental protection agency, states and nation to actively manage these forests. >> there's no question, sir. absolutely. i would actually ask the congress and this committee to even take a look at, could we clarify parts of the healthy forest restoration act to ensure that the forest service can get this sort done on an emergency basis as well. >> which you agree -- we just

how to subcommittee hearing in colorado trying to get an actual answers to the point, is the bark beetle and imminent threat? >> there is no question it is an imminent threat. in the interest of this country the forest service should be allowing flexibility to address this properly. >> to have the skills to do it. you'll find that shocking, but across the board can you which is inhibiting to make commonsense decisions cut increasing costs. when we're talking about the forest, don't they actually filter water for us, isn't that one of the clean sources coming up? >> excuse me, that's correct. if you think of the forest as

watershed, is accomplishing several things. it allows the water to bct streams and waters gently and carefully, but also filters appeared on our farm, for example come under crp via filter strips that are grassy areas that filter the nutrients with many of the programs again not regulatory compliance, but incentive-based voluntary compliance really been forested buffers under the bmps, which protect the water quality. i was air concern about fire, even though we speak for the group of private landowners, the hope of the forest on federal lands is important to us because we are your neighbors and if a boat operators were worried or thirst and proper forest management on adjacent property there can be fire risk to us as neighbors to federal property.

forest health is important across the board and these programs are set to do that and. >> ray, i appreciate that. mr. schwab, you have counterparts in colorado that show your concern when it comes to some of the forest contracts. colorado we have one male in the state of colorado and its under receivership. we have 100,000 trees falling every day, creating a fire for into our area. biomass plans if they can just get the approval out of the forest service to move forward. do you have kind of the a recommendation regards on how to structure those contracts so that she can make your business work and make healthy forests to be working with commonsense forest management? >> i personally have worked with the stewardship of contracting system that works really, really well. the easier you can make it to where your contract curs are

willing to place a bid on it as close to your markets and other things, the better off you're going to be. to simplify the contracting process to make it work for everybody would be super, but really the biggest hurdle we experience as loggers try to bid on federal contracts, giving the timber sale approved to begin with and go through all the environmental studies and the archaeological studies and the bureaucratic red tape that everybody has to deal with in order to put this valuable resource of this country on the marketplace to get it to be sold as a night air. and so if you could somehow increase efficiency through the governmental bureaucracy cited that, i think we could be moving forward and stewardship contracting is a great would it do that because you've taken basically in essence to

contracts and folded them into one and take a resource over here and apply it to use over there, whether it's rude of you are filing creation or even a car situation around ito kills, you can pull that writing to stewardship. so making it simple and giving foresters on giving foresters on the ground ability to make a decision and follow those decisions is crucial for these crops. >> just to jump in very quickly. in many cases on the federal society can take 18 months to get a project done. mr. trent we have time real problems in virginia and we were talking a little earlier and he told me the trees i have with pine beetles were at the mill before the people spoke up for the winter. that's what we need to be doing as well. >> thank you, jonathan. i yield back. >> i recognize the gentleman from florida.

>> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. schwab, kind of continuing on to note for my good friend from colorado, you had mentioned in your testimony our nation's loggers are in trouble in a recent study completed by the research institute indicates we have lost close to 40% of logging capacity here in the united states. i personally know many of the small family-owned businesses and know they contribute greatly to communities where unemployment is still hovering between 15% and 20%. the united states is the world's largest consumer forest projects we would prefer permanent job creation and economic stability here in the united states. could you quickly elaborate on the major challenges you face in your industry? because i know your family business. i know the impact you have in your community and in us to sacrifice for for you to be here. i certainly appreciate your

presence. so what are maybe one of the top two things do you feel are biggest threats to you and your livelihood? >> today's overregulation. we on the blogging side of the forest industry have tremendous amount of capital investment in our equipment. today, to buy any piece of the queen to be anywhere from 20 to $50,000 per unit, per piece of equipment to comply with epa air regulations. and what is that is doing. i'm not getting any more production out of the piece of equipment because of the cost. uncertainty. you know, the ninth circuit court ruling on run off across the rows of calling a asinine is

causing uncertainty, where we have new business development and markets being developed and they want to know what's going to happen here. that's insurgency. and the other thing is access to the resource. the congressman from colorado mentioned he has no problems in his forest. there regions of this country where 80% of the land based in rural america is owned or managed by the government. we do not have access to those for us today. to be able to manage that resource, that doesn't cost the country anything to grow. it should be putting money into the caller is. i had another congressman mentioned the first panel about where were going to get the money from. how will we pay for federal programs? china man, you have the money growing in the forest right now in its time for us as americans to be out of grow up dirt and

harvest the resource got put on the ground for us to harvest and enjoyed and it would've put the money back into the conference. most of the men at the table right here are not standing here with their hand out asking you for money. we want to put money in the treasury. if you eliminate regulation from stifling our industry and you eliminate bureaucracy and trying to cut our timber on federal lands, i think it will have a great chance of recovery. >> touché. mr. holmes, i'm familiar with your neck of the woods. you have some deer hunting up in the black book, so my family enjoys your area. but me ask you, being from alabama, talk about -- we've talked about the ninth circuit and what has occurred. it seems to me that the epa in

many ways produces solutions that are looking for problems. and so, tell me about your area. i know you're a couple hundred miles north of us, by relating to that issue and even piggyback off of mr. schwab had said. >> yes commissary. one of the other things i would like to address that mr. schwab said that i think would be beneficial to you is in the south we also have this out just devastated -- really devastated s. and he was talking about the cost of his equipment in getting things done. in florida we had little tracks and alabama we have the little tricks running around with people who get out and take care of the small areas.

i'm just wondering what's going to happen because a word he missed a word he missed one cycle of pine needles in the southeast. rep for another another big slam. was going to happen when you call up mr. schwab to bring half a million dollars worth of equipment to kahneman and cut 20 acres of pine beetle infestation? he's going to laugh at you. and i am very worried about what is going to happen now because we had -- we had a small basis that you go in and cut out these areas and tend to that and we don't have that now. it's going to be something to look at. but as mr. trent drees said, i have 4000 acres on my farm.

the whole families got about 18,000 acres of timber. we maintain our own roads. when we cut timber, we try not to have large timber sales. we take out a retainer of prime and make sure that our roads are reestablished, waters are put back in. if there's any stream crosses that are disturbed, they are to be put back to where they were. we can handle this and beat them water conservation districts, we speak a lot has been locally that and this is locally that, but it's not also a voluntary movement but the seven best management practices, having snc guidelines to go on, i see this as a nonissue. >> many of us do as well.

>> is that okay, mr. chairman? >> you excellent points about overregulation. the chief of the forest service, the chief forrester has said that voluntary and in some cases mandatory are doing the job. at the research data to back it up in a pip provides that information. >> without objection. >> basket that could be added to the record. >> absolutely. >> the real issue here is the forest under estimates that the cost could be almost $6 billion if this is regulatory action that came down from epa. we know it's not epa followed the course are overzealous, et cetera, the $6 billion we could ban on approving wildlife and water quality is much better use of money than on the speculation. thank you. >> i yield back.

>> one question for the panelists would like to weigh in. the purpose of regulation and the impact of of overregulation is that my question is about. you know, we talk about healthy forests and we talk about, you have to manage a forests for it to be healthy. that means timbering, dealing with the fire load, preventing wildfires, and managing the invasive species that have been then she'd today. so whether it's overregulation related to being declared as a point source, regulation in terms of the ninth circuit ruling with road are overregulation in general. we talked about economic impact in those types of things. i want to focus on my final question. the healthy forest has to be

manage to be healthy. how devastating this overregulation to having healthy forests in this country? >> mr. chairman, it's very devastating because we have proven this industry as a whole nationwide has proven that we can create our best management essays ourselves. we can police ourselves. if ordering from more at 99% compliance to best management practices and put in place ourselves. we don't need the epa to come tell us our air quality coming out of our equipment that we used to harvest the forest, where the air is the cleanest is too dirty. we don't need the epa or the ninth circuit court to come in and tell us that i rose that we miss the point source solution running off of a road beard is insane. what it is going to cause is the economic advantages going in here enjoying the first time or

to any clear-cut on a stand on a stand that needs to be clear-cut because it's a beetle infested or whatever it is to new growth. it's not going to be economically advantageous to us as an industry to do this inside the forest will continue to follow a disappear. fire hazards have been and then your water quality actually will go down. overregulation is for we stifle us were doing as an industry. >> just a follow up again on my mr. schwab said, you know, about 30 years ago, i was in perry county with an 8-year-old child undergoing on the login road and had an official ground flag and my son said daddy, what are you going to do? what's going on? s.@, were going to clear-cut

case track of timber right here. we were having an infestation of we lost a good many of the pine trees. a lot of them were 100 years old and at god back up and they start crying. he killed his first year there when u.s. eight years old. i said fine, trees are justly people. i said we all have a lifetime and to maintain off the forest and to maintain the beauty and the aesthetics and the wildlife as you want to see sometimes we have to remove some of this. and i've seen it. i've been to alaska and i seem to beetle out our experiment into colorado and seen the outbreaks there. then we have god scientific proof, research done that shows this weekend keep the stories

removed from under this forest and keep it in a non-of these trees that we have a healthier forest that provides abundance of wildlife and water quality, air quality and everything else. i agree with mr. schwab. why can't we do send dean about using those monies that we as americans all have two take care of the needs that we have taken -- that needed to be taken care of them also have a healthier forest. >> go ahead. >> lineages share an example of where i think regulation with respect to rose to be negative as opposed to them are positive approach. if he required a vote for me, the cost to be significant. it would not benefit the land direct manual see why in a minute. it would simply be an additional

costs which make the cost of landowners in the cost of bloggers more to conduct healthy forest harvesting. compare that to the voluntary incentive-based leverage if you will come when farmville money is put into the hands of private landowners. the private landowner as his order on additional money. they had sweat equity in a day to practices, which will last for a long, long time. those benefits get a significant leverage effect and provide much better force protection, better water quality protection, better fire management protection. that's a much better approach than to regulate. >> do you have comments? >> regulations are met to protect this from something. if you look at the list of activities in the forest and what is regulated going 180 degrees the other day,

because the regulations we have increased forest fires and doug outbreaks, a worsening economy, uncertainty for those that want to invest in businesses, which leads to declining employment. so regulations to protect ourselves has gone 180 degrees of its actual intent. >> i want to thank all of the members of the second panel for your expertise. thank you for experience and for your endurance for joining us today. hopefully as you saw from the interest and even i would say the passion of the members of the set committee, the subcommittee takes this response very, very seriously. today we've had the opportunity obviously in the finals at

committee hearing on the energy and forestry titles to guess the next one input and information. our next step really is to write a farmville, using the information that we have here. so we will be under the leadership of chairman luca starting that process. any additional resources and we look forward to the data you talk about what the open invitation to contain put forward any information you think would be helpful in the process. i think we speak on behalf of other members of our committee to do due diligence that we had the best possible farmville for all the titles within the farmville. sue under the rules of the committee, the record of today's hearing will remain open for 10 calendar days in supplementary britain responds to many

questions posed by a man or commandeered the subcommittee on energy and forestry is adjourned.

>> i think this is one of those markets that people vote for -- don't vote for the party. this goes for the candidate. i think to see a lot more that come even though though it's heavily republican midwest, which is dynamic and great, but they think east timor bad in the recent years here in the midwest, really voting more for what the person stands for. >> per se show you the monger house, the only remaining original structure from the

18th 65 to 1870 time. it was a very important building in our history and that it is a residence, but it's also the headquarters of the wichita land come to me it came down here to create, shall we say, the city of wichita. >> the british prime minister, tony blair testified before a panel examining the relationship between politicians and the press. they talked about british official dealings with new score, ceo rupert murdoch. mr. straw search for almost 10 years under prime minister blair and again it's just a secretary for three years under prime minister gordon brown.

>> today's witness -- [inaudible] >> i swear by my aussie god to undertake it will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me god. >> give your full name. >> john whitaker straw, the commonly known as jack. >> u.s. signed and dated it. are you content to confirm the content to the verses of this inquiry? >> i am. mr. straw, thank you for a witness statement to the effort you put into it and also for the next phase, which were extremely pricey and. of all the witnesses who have

appeared or who are sued. this inquiry as they made clear in the declaration and eight at the beginning, i know mr. straw the best. not merely because we knew each other many, many years ago, but because i worked quite closely and in my capacity when he was lorch chancellor and judge. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> mr. straw, in terms of your career, the dates may be relevant to this secretary page 97 to 2001, foreign secretary 2001 to 2006. 2006 until 2000 then lord chancellor secretary of state, but justice until 27 until 2010. ..

to undermine your integrity will.

>> thank you. in more detail into course, but the way, the steps we've taken to ameliorate those risks in your statement these are on the advice you give to others to follow in your political career is that right? >> i suppose one we have not quite early on and that is unfortunate because it's the period i spent in the late 60's, early 70's. in fact i profile the front-page stuff talking about what to do in relation to the present and what not to do and then 17 years

in opposition we think about this a lot i sort of coming on to these views and that period and salles of the affect some of those colleagues and people on the opposition on the other side of gotten too close to the press the normal share price in that party. like any there is a clash and folks that share don't do that, but i think i just took the view that you have to take a lot my view was go on and face the music even if it was going to be

difficult. i was always clear if i was asked to go to parliament i should and there was plenty of other times i was arguing with the office to let me go to parliament rather than hide it. ultimately if you were as straight as you could become that would come through even though you've got to come through the right of the way. >> on the point that you made about the air rising share price in a position that is inevitable the politicians are getting their message across, so they then the position changes. how or what is the best way to manage that change in the expectations that rise on both

parties? >> the relationship between the media and politicians between the government and opposition. in opposition what matters is what you are saying, and you can't be tested in terms of your actions. much press media reporting of politics is a copy that is framed by reference to the government come and these days it is a part of our culture most of the stories are looking for stories in one way or another. so what you get is a very cozy relationship being built up between a particular journalist and a particular opposition and falling very close sometimes we would have to try to do that,

when i was the spokesman between 82 to 92i would work with linda kim correspondent between 94 and 97. there were no correspondence to work with and build up stories and enjoy the results. that has to change when you go into government, and i think there's a bigger reason, but one of the reasons why collectively the government was too close to some people in the press was our experience in opposition and we haven't stopped. we can't continue to operate in that way in government. i will take that point of a little later. the general points that you made in paragraph 25 and 21, the

truth may be unclear that despite of the personality clash or conflict it becomes more interesting and the problem is with respect to those matters are there any other points he would wish to elaborate? >> to separate points. there wasn't fair journalism, and indeed the television and radio newspapers were seen more powerful than they are today in the focus driven labor party now. it certainly is about the defeat in the election of 24 when who

they published this lesser, the question is that defeat. >> that is a lot of memory in. >> i remember this with great bitterness the labor enterprise. but we, the budget papers in the daily mirror were used to report was going on in the public service and that stuff started

to disappear such as a parliament but i admitted were to the inquiry i have a young researcher charting the decline of the reporting to be pretty stable, and the affect of that has contributed to ignorance by the public of what happens. to give you an example, the online editor of the times has been a great man and has been there forever. he started life working in the press gallery of the house of commons and he told me that at that time there were 12 people whose job was to produce the 7,000 a day which reports it was happening in parliament as

opposed to the background stories to have to and that's gone and has been replaced by the sort of personality so if you are pursuing a policy which is consentual and ought to be a good thing in the papers in the columns to say why aren't you going for a great policy often you are but a legislation goes through and it's not being summoned. the other point i would make is that although the television and radio have to come much more powerful the print media, it is still the print media that sets up in the news and i was very struck in the evidence, this is

paragraph 17 of the evidence come he brings up that point that they've set these avenues for the broadcasters as much as they do for their own policies in the media. >> in a 27 and 28. when you were in high office in a 13 year period and have special but pfizer's -- >> allowed the special that pfizer's i have one of the policy side and together on the media side with an opposition from 1993 from the general election, 2,005 and mark davis

to 2010 both were journalists that came to the job as journalists, and their job was to have a direct relationship and also to cooperate and work closely with the press offices. they were completely straight. they had a good reputation with journalists for the industry and for not being manipulative and that's how i wanted it. and i am afraid going on is the special but pfizer's to some extent they reflected the personalities some people and politics are obsessively conspiratorial in any way you can make your way, so they

employ specialists pfizer's who were similarly up to tactics. >> the share price writing for a period the more general become and invariably crashed on its own. but this was a long learning process. >> the extent to which the media special advisers acted under your general direction, can you help us through that? >> the complete direction, it wasn't general direction, and i knew what they were doing. and i knew in real time what they were doing. they were in and out of the office and reflect a part of the private office and each case

there's one area and this is true for the minister of justice, and thinking about this to say that appropriately than from the opening. they would have found out immediately. before your own individual past due to practice paragraph statement involving 02550 you see in paragraph you have made a number of editors for years and you have the contact numbers it

would depend on a number of factors and understanding the underlying reasons for that. union him in the late 1960's but since then, how frequently do you meet him? >> not that often. it's not a friendship but it could have been a friendship. it is just how it's been. i have to go through my diary, but as far as i know, policy business is to deal with and towards the end of my period at the ministry of justice, i probably would see him for lunch maybe once a year and bump into him and other environments, and

i could have asked him to do the same. but i represent of the student leader and my last year and he was obviously very talented young journalist when he arrived and became the editor of the union news very quickly. but we got along and as i say, i think there was a petition of the kind of mutual respect. and as i said, my relationship with him has been more straightforward because his reviews and find our different final mr. baker somehow or another in the editorials on the collection day.

they had never expected it. >> the exchange between you on the telephone. >> paul baker, i don't think i've exchanged the message with him when i wanted to say by e-mail i sent him that in his office. i've got the number on my system but i can't remember. >> the relationship changes when mr. brown became prime minister

and mr. blair to mr. baker. >> i think mr. baker was skeptical about mr. blair in a way that he was less skeptical about mr. brown. partly because mr. brown before he became the leader had conversations with mr. baker about him having an inquiry to the 30 year rule so that was a done deal but then took on the operational side of that ann curry. >> subsequently with mr. baker and other colleagues in the press and the protection act. >> before you go on to i get to

a phrase i like of the respectful acquaintanceship? was that because you or he felt that the respective power to keep in different directions and therefore that was the best way or was just a coincidence and you wouldn't have minded if that had been more? i think it's a respectful relationship, nothing more and could have crossed more afterwards but they didn't come soil think there was quite a period when iverson london and i didn't have anything to do with him. it could have developed.

i think it is completely unfit that as far as i gather he's pretty private about his family life and we are of ours. we've never turned for politicians we like almost all of our personal family friends but not politicians were journalists for that matter. i suspect they are similar. >> i wasn't seeking to the personal, i was seeking to examine whether you take the decision which in light of what you said would be understandable but sure, i could try but actually because i think there is a big issue then i won't and if you did go in to that

conclusion there's no going back because it's a very relevant to the issues we've been talking about the extent of the close relationships. >> not to get too close, so i think it was a fear of mine of the time that was my instinct that you shouldn't get too close, and for the simple if i was getting looked over in the press what happens from time to time which happens to the code is some fairly, my view western not complain of it because my father would make it worse and pretty weak it might be lacking. but there was nothing much to do about it and i might get special

adviser or the press offices to talk to the journalists concerned does that answer your question, sir? it is the incorrect thinking because you are talking now about over 40 years and one of the interesting issues worry is whether what everybody now concedes he has become an ever cozy relationship is in demand in the system, and from what you are saying i am getting from my perspective it was never endemic because perhaps subconsciously i always decided that wasn't the sensible line. >> that is true.

that relationship between the government's and when i worked for barbara castle she had been a journalist and probably the best way of describing is that she was the labor equivalent to margaret thatcher said she had very strong opinions about people and she kept losing to journalists she contested but with the lobby of course the

press lobby was kept very tight with a sort of freemasonry, so it was even more and i am not saying how i would have operated in that system except they keep it a bit at a distance. >> in paragraph 44, you look at the important role of the labor party to elaborate on what you mean about halfway down where you say mr. murdoch played a power game of the political leaders. >> the meanings of most newspapers in britain are predictable, so it is going to be supporting it with compared

to the labor party to read from that election i think there are only two news papers one is the guardian and the other is three of the fourth news international paper's, but it supports the liberal democrats, so 1983 and it did again in 2010, its unpredictable weather that would support the labor party, and for the paper's mr. murdoch purchased these papers and supported 97. the ever of the purchase is with the son of news of the world and

he reckoned that political influence to be greater and his support was available in return for he thought he would get out of it and i don't mean by a deal because i see no evidence of a deal. now they might -- the view of this is the people that news international in the news international and other newspaper executives very concerned about where the leaders were the spot at between 92 and 97 but it's a more complicated set of relationships and i think that mr. murdoch

enjoyed the fact that he was to put political leaders in the way that the executive papers had not because their argument is predictable. i hope that explains. estimate there are three ways that one could analyze. one is just a piece of enjoyment the third and it's the most extreme underneath it there is an expressed deal and then there's something in between. you said in return for what he thought he would or could get out of it. could i ask you to say more about that? >> i've never had this conversation with him in my life. i'd obviously met him play scarcely have had more than a paragraph of conversations with

him ever. he's very interested in power. for its own sake because you don't get to that position running a huge international media empire without being interested in power, and it and to help him consolidate the newspaper interests i was struggling and he was explaining the print media on a percentage of the total revenues of the news corporation the there's a degree of ingenuity but the point that it was making because the power to print titles provided goes back to the point

was made which is the print media can have the greatest influence of all over the new values and the headlines from all the other media, and i feel that mr. murdoch is in support for the party each time was available and that is more doors in the government to come from the media regulation licenses, regulation and so on. >> what you are giving us here is that what you believe his motivation is to be rather than perhaps direct evidence of anything he has told you?

>> i've never had more than a paragraph of conversation and i have to correct evidence. this is my size but he is a busy man and a very successful man, and like anybody else in a position like that he thinks about what he is doing and why he is doing at. that is the conclusion that i've drawn. >> and paragraph 35 you refer to the power of mr. murdoch's the five papers. one might note that you prefer to use that word rather than mr. campbell's influence. >> it was from the point of view of -- certainly those on the receiving end felt like power and it may be to provide a bit of explanation as to why people who were on the front bench in the labor party in the 1990's