newspapers, some radio stations -- magazines, certainly scholarly books and popular books, and there aren't enough out there so that you can check information against the other and then you can talk to people and use other sources -- i use a lot of foreign sources as well, and german, french, check sources as well. it is a paradox situation. remember, what are we comparing putin to? are we comparing him to a jeffersonian democracy? or are we comparing him to where the soviet union was in 1985? if in 1985 you would say, here is the vision of russian society that i propose, that the putin system is built, how much would the united states have paid to get that system? we would've paid a lot. it comes down to her perspective by which we establish criteria of evaluation. >> host: this is the book. professor allen lynch is the author. the book is "vladimir putin and

russian statecraft." it is published by potomac books. professor, thanks for being with us on booktv on c-span 2. >> guest: you are most welcome. >> is there a nonfiction author or book that you'd like to see featured on booktv? send us a put e-mail apple tv.org or tweet us at twitter.com/booktv. up next on booktv, lilly ledbetter recurrence recounts her career at goodyear tire and her sexual discrimination suit at the company over unequal pay. she recalls the 5-4 supreme court decision. justice ruth bader ginsberg vocalized her dissent to the ruling from the bench. in 2009, president obama signed

the lily ledbetter fair pay in restoration act act. his first official bill paid as president. this is just over one hour. [applause] [applause] >> thank you. thank you very much. [applause] [applause] >> i have to tell you right off, i have a little hearing problem with my ears. i flew 12,000 miles in march, i have a ruptured blood vessel in my ear. but everyone says i'm talking okay. i still have the southern drawl. "the new york times" stated early on in my battle that i have a southern drawl, if you get past her, she's got a good story. i do. the reason i have remained having a good story, i am not in one special as a person. it touches everyone in this nation. there is not anyone exempt.

if it is not you yourself, it is someone in your family, your sister, maybe your mother or whatever. but it is ruining this country that women are so mistreated in their pay and their benefits. it is like what the president said when he signed the bill into law. it is not a woman's issue. it is a family issue. it belongs to the family. and that is why this story has stayed so popular, because people are living it every day. i make a lot of trips around the country, and last year i did a lot of military bases and i found than that people are having to move their mothers and mother in-laws and their homes, simply because they did not receive enough pay during their working years to have a decent retirement. that is not right. it's not right in this country, because then the family is trying to raise their children

and teenagers, and to have the grandparents there, it has an interference in the family life, and it is a hardship and expense, too, when this happens. i'm going to tell you a little bit about who i am. when i came to goodyear, i was a district manager for h&r block, managing 16 locations. prior to that, i was assistant financial aid director at jacksonville state university. before that, i was one of those people who, for six years, i worked the full-time jobs, two of them, nine months a year. i worked 112 months and the other nine months. i worked another job full time. i worked two full-time jobs for six years. i know what i'm talking about. i went to goodyear in 1979 because they built the radio division in gadsden alabama in 1976, and i i was in my office one day and saw a good article from businessweek, and they were

going to implement a new management style of teams. that's what i believed in, and i wanted to be part of that. i knew that radial tires were the rate of the future. i heard it had them on my car. at my husband's suggestion. the first ones that came out, just like everything out, they were very high in price. i started interviewing in 1978. i was hired every five, 1979 as a first-line supervisor. there were five of us on the squad. and we were smart. there were five divisions at the time, about 5000 people working at the gadsden plant. we knew that they would put each of us in one of those divisions. so i started working as hard as i knew how, because i wanted the radio division. and i did get the radio

division, and i had to physically work every job from one end to the other. part of my training. then they put me on that ship. they said later that they would never put a new higher in stopping in prep again, but i survived and i made it, and it was a good job. those jobs to are goodyear, they were good manager jobs for women detailed, we followed through, and we were always on the job. that was 1979. i spent two years in the mailroom. in 1998, i ran into work one night, and the first thing i always did was check my mail. there was a note showing that my name and three-man, just our first names, those men were each

one making $50,000 base pay plus, mine was $3727 base pay. that was no overtime. managers on the line, first-line managers, we got time and a half, double or triple. the first initial thought in my mind was how much money i have lost in overtime pay. i was embarrassed, i was devastated, i ran into the ladies lounge and walked around and sat down a minute and tried to get my composure. i didn't understand how i could muster up the strength to go through a 12 hour shift i had ahead of me. but i did. i got up, finally, and realized i had to get on my job or i would be late. all through the night, kept looking at people and wondering who let me know. halfway through the night, it hit me like a ton of bricks.

my retirement is based on what i am learning. my contributory retirement was matched by a percentage from goodyear, and i have had that after six months of going to work there. my 401k at the time was 10% of what i earned, matched by 7% stock. and that cost me a lot of money through the years. today, my social security as well. i was devastated all the way home. the next morning i thought about what were my options. i was two years away from retirement. but i couldn't let it go. i just couldn't let it go because that is not who i am. for me, growing up in a poor county of alabama in the rural section, and having to pick cotton as a child, child, i learned enough about work and could you give a good base work for good base pay. but i couldn't let that go. i said i have to go to

birmingham, and file a charge with the equal employment commission. and i can tell you upfront, that if i start, we will be in this eight years. there is not a quick solution to a case like this. corporations in the corporate world, they have deep pockets. they can wait you out and spend you out and they can wear you out. i said we will be in a long time because i'm not a quitter, and you know that. he said what time do you want to leave? we went to birmingham, i filed a charge with the equal employment commission. the interviewer i got, she grilled army all the details. when you are a manager and you have to go and and say, they are not treating me right, you sound like a crybaby and a whiner. when she finished, she stayed with me about three hours. she dug out of me everything that had occurred to me during my career at goodyear here in

gadsden. when she finished, she said mrs. lily ledbetter, these people have been messing with you for a long time. i said yes, ma'am, i understand that more today than i ever have faced it before. as i go back home and i go back to my jobs, as soon as goodyear is notified, the retaliation starts. i've been put on a different job, i think it any information. they did not have a policy and procedures book. there was no job description. they created a new job. and it was very difficult to survive. so i saw the handwriting on the wall. in 1998 i filed the charge. in 1999, the equal employment commission called and said you have one of the best cases we have ever seen. and we would advise you, and we can do it, but we would suggest that you get your own attorney, because we are so backlogged and understaffed during that time,

until you get to try -- trial. you get to travel much faster. i found a young attorney in birmingham. he thought my case pro bono. i did my investigation on him. the people i spoke with said he never lost a case. and someone said when i got there, well, he never had to go to trial before. [laughter] but he was my kind of guy. he was good at negotiating settlements. for an individual to come out in a case like this with anything in their pockets, you need a decent settlement. there was never one offered. that is why i saw it through and i would not give up and neither would my attorney. he is still working with me today, and he's never made a dime. that was 1999. he took my case. he tried to get us to federal court by 2002. but we didn't get there until

2003. my case was heard in my home county in anniston, alabama, in january 2003. after a week of testimony, the jury came back with the verdict in my favor. but i had two women who came forward. one of them was still working at the plant at the time. she took a tremendous risk, and she hated her at that price for doing that. but she had done that she had suffered a lot of discrimination as well, and has never gotten, to my knowledge, ever gotten anything for it. the other lady had some her service after being hustled and harassed, she had 22 years service. and she threw a radio against the wall him i was told, and went to honda as a supervisor. she took a personal day and came to the court and testified on my behalf. the lawyer asked her why she never complained. she said i was a divorced mother

supporting a blind and handicapped son, and i live paycheck to paycheck and i couldn't afford it. we were all told in management if you discuss your pay, you will not work here. evidently, everybody took them at their word, because no one ever did discuss the pay. and she said i knew if i brought up my pay, but i would not have a job. and i couldn't afford to do that -- to lose my job. she was making, when we went to discover, she was making even less than i was. in fact, she was below the minimum. that was one of the things that i learned when we got into discovery, i was below the minimum for my job most of the years that i worked there. we got the verdict on friday in january 2003. and there were other people out in the hallway. i had a general maintenance man who had worked for me. he was going to testify. there was an area manager

sitting there to testify, but we didn't need him after the two women. my attorneys had all of the managers names and dollar salaries, are higher dates, we started back, and where we were at the time. and it was a disgrace. that was really all the jury should have seen. it was beyond a shadow of a doubt that i had been discriminated simply because i was born a woman. that was 2003. the verdict came back, i lost the age discrimination case and a couple of other small ones that we threw in, but the pay discrimination, they found in my favor, $3.8 million. i had been told to look at the jury, don't look at the attorneys, keep staring straight

ahead. that was hard to do. they said don't cry, don't do anything. when i heard that berger, that is all i needed to hear. when i heard that verdict. when i started this, i knew that i would never get any money. it was not about the money. i needed that money and my two children were in college and we were paying car payments and house mortgages and trying to keep the kids fed and in college. that was hard. that is the normal family way. the law is on my side. the judge wanted the jury to take a seat, and he explained to the courtroom how i was only entitled to $300,000. when you only have one item, and the only discriminatory item i had was that i was a woman.

i didn't have color or anything else. i could only get $300,000. backpay you can only go back two years. i knew that going in. backpay, you can only go back two years. if you work 40 years or 30 years and you decide you want to file for your lost wages, you can only go back two years. that is the law. there is nothing, nothing in the law that allows an individual to regain any of their lost overtime pay for their lost retirements. you cannot get your retirement rectified, it is gone forever. and that is a shame. i will hope that i will live long enough to see the cap taken off. the cap needs to come off. that is the only way a jury can compensate an individual or all of that lost money. the judge took the lowest paid mail in the room and he had only

been working at goodyear just a year, had less education and less experienced. and he already made $600 more a month than i did just transferring in from a lower paying job. but the judge took his pay and calculated my two year's backpay, and i was given 30,000 per year. so i left the courtroom with $360,000. folks, i love headlines. the headlines the next day from california to chicago to new york to florida -- all across this nation, red jacksonville, alabama, woman awarded $3.8 million from goodyear tire and rubber. there was a gadsden headline that read goodyear lost, they lost the case. i love those headlines. there is a lot to be said in

those headlines and in the news. well, that was 2003. he went to the circuit court and then when my attorneys appealed, we were heard in the supreme court in november 2006. the monday after thanksgiving. life goes on during this time. we had our normal family life, the best you can do, but i worked this case full, just like it was a job. i called people. i called over 100 people to find those were people -- there were a few others, but we didn't need them -- to testify on my behalf people were afraid of losing jobs. they were so afraid. that is why they switched over. if they came and gave a desperate deposition, most of the time it was color coded. life went on, and my husband had two major back surgeries and was

bedridden for six weeks. then he started developing cancer on his ears. two months after the left ear, one came out on the left side of his face. right in through the job. and they removed the left side of his face, grabbed the skin off his leg, and i left them at home with a home health care nurse to travel to the supreme court to hear my case presented. it was important for me to be there. i don't know why, all i heard was lily ledbetter versus goodyear, all i ever heard was we can't let this go forward. but the equal employment commission has supported my case from the time we started until the supreme court as you heard from the introduction, the law is on my side. cases previous to this were based on paycheck accrual, which means if you are still getting a check, it started a new accounting period. but when the government, after

goodyear's lawyer had 20 minutes, then the government's lawyer took goodyear aside and said we can't let this happen there will be cases coming out of the woodwork and it will be very hard on the corporation. well, we waited until may 2007 when the verdict came out. they came back 5-4, and justice alito wrote that i should have filed a charge the first paycheck i got. even though i couldn't know it and didn't prove it, i should've filed at them. what this would mean is that if you get a new job, you have six months to file charges. it is said that people shouldn't be walking around trying to

figure out if you should file a charge. at goodyear, i didn't even know where the restrooms were in six months. that's just not normal. that's not the way it's supposed to be. justice ruth bader ginsberg hit the nail on the head when she said these people don't understand what it's like in the real world, and she challenged congress. she said the ball is in your court. you can take it up and you can correct this injustice and change the law back. and she was exactly right. the congress heard her loud and clear. that was may 2007. the lawyers told me when they called and gave me the verdict, they said you don't have to respond to the media. but i wanted to give this my best shot, the laws on my side. i have worked this case. my lawyers have worked it. we didn't have anything to be embarrassed about. in fact, the arbitration case settlement that we had offered

them aloud in turn need to go earn my pay today's a week. i said i don't want to earn anymore. i should've had what i was supposed to get when i did work. i would be in the mail room on saturday nights and sunday night. they said oh no, we'll let you work two days in a jar. i said no, he has been at goodyear just the right time to transfer out and he did. two months after the case closed. he doesn't even work with goodyear anymore. my lawyer bought me a plane ticket to weeks after the verdict, and they said you are testifying before the house. i testified twice before the house and twice before the

senate. and i had the opportunity the first time in the senate to testify before ted kennedy's committee. his staff had put together everything. the other chart showed how they had voted since they had been on the bench. it was, in fact, senator kennedy's words, they didn't appear to be the same individuals. my case was the only one they have reversed or change the law. i spoke at the democratic convention. i went, invited by the president we have today. in the meantime, we are doing radiation and chemo at my house, and also i am flying back and forth to washington.

the coalition in washington chemie up there. i would go three or four days a week. a day for me in washington is that i would be up at 5:00 a.m. in a call-in radio program, npr radio program, do a tv spot, up on the hill, and we were hitting republicans as well as democrats to get support the ledbetter bill is a fundamental american right that each of us are paid what we are legally entitled to and have earned. when i walked off that stage at the democratic convention, i felt the audience, i could see the tears on the woman's face. the men were saying yes, we got it. i walked off. they said when do you endorse obama?

i said tonight. i knew i had to get off the fence and go for him because john mccain had just spread the women's problem across this great nation. we didn't have enough education or training. that's why we didn't make enough money. i couldn't let that go. i had staff in turn start campaigning and get the laws changed because it was important. and it was a record deal. it took us 18 months to get the ledbetter bill passed, and the paycheck fairness past. i was sitting in the senate last november to see it voted on. after 15 years being in the work. it failed by two votes. all the democrats voted for it, but no republican would come across the aisle and vote for. had that been the law, i would've known i was getting shortchanged. we back when, and i could've done something about it. but this is real. people's lives. this is not a game. this is real families across the nation. i have learned.

high school and younger, the mother son home to take care of the children. they want the parents to go to the parent teacher conferences and education asserting. we have to get that country turned around. what is dragging the nation down is the fact that so many people are underpaid for the work that they do. it seems simple to me because when people are paid fair, it benefits the community, the state, and the nation. they will turn the money back around in the neighborhoods, and they will spend it, and it will make it stronger all the way around. i also have learned doing the right thing may not be popular and easy. but doing the right thing sometimes means having the courage to speak the truth to

power. that came from a judge in birmingham, and i still believe it. i also learned that it is not so much what happens to us that how we react to it. i can't let this go today. i lost my husband in december 2008. i came home from doing a 2020 mac segment in new york. the cancer and the treatment had warned my husband really out. he had a stroke and his left eye the last year. we had nine operations on that guy. he never did regained eyesight. and he had a prostate surgery and the extra treatment, and his body was absolutely worn out. but i could not let go and i don't let it go today we still have much work to do right now i am disturbed that they are trying to take away protect the

rights and the decisions that we women have to make for our bodies. and we can't let this happen. we have to wake up. i did learn that one person can start a battle, but it takes a lot of us to win a war. everybody across this nation, one of the headlines read, she struck a nerve, and that is exactly what i did. people got behind me, and in that same interview, that came from stafford university when i spoke there, i stated that was a good job. for those of you that have worked at the plant, you know that those were good jobs. if i had just gotten paid what i was legally entitled to, had my pay been within the ballpark, i would've let it go. and i thought about it. that was the easy thing to do. i thought about it long and hard. because i knew that once i started i would not know when

the end was in sight. but that was the process i was willing to pay in my family supported me. i could not let go. my title in the plant immediately became troublemaker. i carried it on through and after the verdict came out from the supreme court, i got a bill from goodyear for $3165. the birmingham attorneys sent to the media, and the attorneys senate to to law students. this is something that we all need to get behind. we can't let this go. the first call i got the day after the funeral was from the senator hillary rodham clinton, and then the second call was from president-elect obama, and the third one was from michele obama. these are caring people, and the people that are there now, and i

am not complaining, it's nonpartisan here, but they understand what it's like to live in america. i would suggest this. i told the college students this when i visit the schools. research the people you are voting for. if you don't research, and you don't no at the root records are, what did they do,? those are the people you need to support. not what they might think about doing, but what they have done is what you look at. but i couldn't let this go. gerri: ..

>> this is around the world. and the other countries once said they're looking at the united states for leadership to set an example. but there's a lot in the book, and i wanted lenere to share with you a little bit about what we have in the back and some of the things that's there, give you a little information there. and then we're going to open it up for questions. and there's no secrets because, you going to lie when you read anything you want to about me. i hope you've seen the rachel rachel maddow interview and chris matthews on hardball.

cbs was march the 5th. it's running online, and hardball was mar 16th, and -- march 16th, and there's a video running on obama's web site that they came to alabama in may to have a lot of the libraries' videos that they've purchased to use in it, and there's a lot to that one. they did a good job. they sent a professional team in, and i flew all those miles last month, and lenere and i will be leaving tuesday morning. we're going to harvard this boston and speak at harvard tuesday night. so we -- and there's some, when she's attu lain, i'll be in pittsburgh. so we even split up. so i think she captured my story extremely well, and since this is a local audience, i'll share some things. i did turn down a movie deal early on, right after the verdict, simply because i wanted this story to be heard across this nation.

because it's important that we wake up and stop and prevent this from happening to other people and other families. and we do not have to accept it. we can do something about it. >> her woman is every woman's story, and the reason that is the case because in america, you probably know this, caucasian women earn 77 cents for every dollar a man earns. and this fact is based on the median earnings of all full-time, year-round workers. so in 2010 when a man earned $47,715, a woman earned almost

$11,000 less. she earned $36,931. so 50 years ago the equal pay act was passed in 1963, and women earned 53% to every man's dollar. that was just 50 years ago. and there are two things to note here. the gaps have not closed very much this half a century. in half a century. that's about half a cent annually. half a cent annually. and if you add up that difference over the course of a lifetime and a working lifetime is considered 47 years of full-time work, that's 47 years of your life you're working. as a high school graduate, that means you lose $700,000 if you're a woman. for a college graduate that's 1.2 million, and for a rossal

school graduate who has a graduate degree, you've got $2 million that you've lost. so for l irk ly -- lily when she discovered that note at 19 years of goodyear, that meant she lost over $200,000 in her career, and that was not taking into consideration her retirement and her social security. for women of color, the wage gap is even worse. in 2010 african-american women were earning 67.7% to every man's dollar, and hispanic women 58.7% of all men's earnings. so lily's story is every woman's story. and there are other 60 million working women in the work force. two-thirds are mothers who are bringing home at least a quarter of their family's earnings. so in many cases women are the sole breadwinners. so from wall street the walmart

it doesn't matter where you work, women are discriminated in the work force. and that's a very dry statistical picture of the wage gap. and lily has become the poster child for the wage gap whether she wanted to or not. here is her story from her point of view, and that is just one woman's experience. so what we did was we put a lot of information in the back of the book about the wage gap. so if you read this story, then you also have that to look at as a resource for your own needs. and we hope that things will change. >> we'll open it up for questions. i'll give you two answers right off. i do not know who gave me the note, because what happened after i filed the charge, later i got in the mail the last

evaluation of the -- [inaudible] anonymously mailed. so i don't know who gave it to me, where it came from. and at trial you'd be interested to know goodyear could not produce my personnel file. it had -- one of my bosses said he thought they burned it. and the judge came across that bench and said let me explain the law to you goodyear attorneys. you're required by law to retain those records until it's closed. but they could not produce it, and so it wasn't there. but that's all we had other than our pay records that my attorney could finally get from goodyear. so i don't know who gave me the note and, no, i don't buy goodyear tires. love laugh i do not. if i buy a vehicle that's got 'em, i get rid of them immediately. [laughter]

>> one thing i think is important to point out, when you got to court in 2003, the number of legal documents that the case generated stacked -- if you stacked it up, it would be three stories high. so it's hard to understand what someone really goes through and how much time, effort, energy, heartbreak, sorrow you experience just to stand up for what's right. so, yeah. >> i'm the type of individual i couldn't let it go. it just was not right. i just could not let it go. the law was on my side, and all it did, the outcrying against the supreme court about this ruling until the next ridiculous case that came before 'em about something similar to pay was the lady who filed the charge with the equal employment. and it was on the wrong form or wrong date or something. it should not have been let go. but bush said, it's okay, just let that one go. those shots were not called from

that bench, in my opinion. but that's my opinion. i got it. but she's right, it was a long fight, and it's hard on individuals, it's hard on their families. we could not leave home like on a vacation or go on a trip without advising the attorney where we were and how we could be reached. for ten years. it took me nine years to get my final verdict, and then it actually took 18 months to get the bill changed. >> but, lily, why did you tell him eight? what were you thinking? >> well, i read the headlines. you don't see any cases in the paper that's a quick fix. they can drag 'em out. and now that we in the last three years, the equal employment commission is double staffed, and they have more money. i do a lot of work with them now, and one thing that they're doing, they're going around

training city and county and governments that don't bring in official people to train them on what they should be doing with the laws, and they go in and train those people, and, therefore, they don't make these mistakes. so they're doing a lot of preventive work now as well as if you'll check the paper periodically, you'll see a large sum that they have won for an individual. now, when they win the money, they get it all. that person does. the government doesn't keep any of it. now, in my case when i talked about money, that 360 had the supreme court awarded it like they should have, my attorneys got half, and i had to pay federal and state tax on all of it because it was in lieu of wages. so i would have had less than $50,000, and i spent 40 of my own money. it wasn't a complete washout. i had already spent $40,000, and

i worked every weekend getting ready to go to trial, and i was there for every deposition. i think you'll enjoy the book. if you work in the plant now or you've worked there or know somebody that works there -- which a lot of you here do -- you're going to say, yeah, i knew that. i saw that. you really will. how about questions? anybody -- i'm sure you've got something you'd like to ask. >> well, i have a comment. i think that it's extraordinary that you have spent as much time and effort as you have to do this, because a lot of people would not have done it. and i think that we all need to take a lesson from that. and i think not on the issue of women's pay, but i'm concerned about the vote that we're, they're trying to stop a lot of people from voting.

>> you're right. >> that's a right. >> you're right. >> and we all need to be concerned about that. >> that's true. that's true. >> i commend you for all you've done. >> well, thank you. we have a question over here. we need a mic. we do ask that you talk in the mic when you have a question so everybody can hear. >> lily this is kind of, i guess, a double question for you. on the day that the supreme court made its decision, i'd like to know what you felt. i'd also like to know how you felt the day president obama signed the law. >> great questions. the day i heard the verdict, my husband and i started to a luncheon with a senior group from the church. when i got the call. well, we thought we'd cohave runs -- go have lunch, you know, and go on our merry way and get used to losing. well, the media started calling,

and the lawyers said you don't have to respond, but i didn't have anything to be embarrassed. nbc called, and i said, come in. they videoed and recorded, and pete williams -- or brian williams with a hookup that night, he did the questions x. then the next day cnn came, and it was just one media, radio -- norman lear called that night, and he said i want to send a team in, do you know who i am? i said, yes, sir, you made "jeffersons" and "all in the family." [laughter] and he had just worked on "happy feet." i've met him sin then, but he set a team in, and we taped all day. there's still some videos on youtube. you can't believe what you see on tv because they rearrange your whole house and take your photos down and move your dining room table. [laughter]

want you to make a cake, and i said i don't think so, i just lost $3.8 million, and you want me to bake a cake? no. [laughter] no, it'll just look like it. i said, no. he said, well, you've got a coffee maker. well, my husband is retired military, so he was a coffee person. he said, oh, i've got a pot of fresh coffee. but they had me to pour it out and make some more. [laughter] when we went to the white house for the bill, they called me and said does your daughter want to come? because we both had been on the train trip with the obamas and the bidens to the inauguration. and i said, i'll call her. and the lady who called said, well, i have to get her cleared, and it's not easy, so let me know quick. well, i called my daughter's house at 6 a.m. in the morning, and i told my son-in-law what i needed. well, another hour she called back. she said, can you get five of us in? i was so embarrassed, i didn't think about carrying my son-in-law and grandson. [laughter] i said, well, sure.

i got that much swing up there, i'm sure of that. [laughter] so i called back and gave them all the social security numbers. but we went in that white house, we walked up to that gate that morning, and people were chanting my name, all of those women and the men. they was chanting, you'd have thought i was a rock star. my grandson's eyes were this big looking at me. see, they'd never been involved in any of this. we get into the white house, and they pull me out separate, and they're out there meeting all the people and visiting, and then they signed the bill. that was an awesome walk down that red carpet. i mean, it was -- the feeling i had because i had prayed is hard, and i don't think you're really supposed to pray for personal things like that. but i had prayed that that would send a message. it was the first bill he signed into law. i was the second one that got to dance with him at the neighborhood ball. there is an 8x10 picture in the

hardback washington post book, and you can get 'em online. they're running online. but while we were dancing, he said we are going to do this. well, i know, i knew he wasn't talking about dancing. he was talking about the led better bill. he said, we are going to do this. so he, he saw it through, and got it done. but when that pen hit that paper, it meant so much to so many. that was what went through my mind, was all of you that's got family are working out there today that you have that right. and you find out ten years there now you've been discriminated against, you can file that charge in 180 days. so it was an awesome feeling. and then we went in for the reception, and that was the first one they had done since they got there, and that was the first time the women's groups in washington had been to the white

house in the eight years. eight years they had not been there. and they had all the refreshments set up, and i looked at all those neat little dainty dishes, and i sure did want some, but be i was busy. and they told my daughter's family, you can't move. if you do, you'll lose your seat. my daughter said i did get some coffee in the white house china. but it was neat to be there and to -- and hillary clinton came in and, of course, she was secretary of state by then. but all of those politicians, the republicans and the democrats, half of those people standing behind me, there are republicans. but i had three checks offered to me that day to run for office, and i turned it down. because i do more good going to college campuses, military bases, law schools and anywhere else when anybody invites me. monday of last week i spoke, addressed the assembly at the capitol in california. that was an awesome experience as well. i've been some places, i want l,

n be ier and i to do, she's got three more years with where i've been and what's happened because it has been unreal. and the doors opened, and this past monday i had dinner in the home monday night of the marshall loeb who started "fortune" magazine. i couldn't eat for looking at chandeliers and all the things on the wall and on the floor -- [laughter] because i participated in a fundraiser in new york. not that i could give any money, but we being there created a lot of excitement and pictures, and i spoke and spoke at the equal pay panel. and then went up the ladder to raise money to get women into politics, either republican or democratic. and that was an awesome experience. so many doors. and i've got to do my last thing on my bucket list in 2010, i got to meet justice ruth bader ginsburg. i also was the first ordinary

citizen to testify for elena kagan when she was confirmed. and i didn't take that lightly. i researched her, and i called students that i knew had been to harvard and found out her background and looked her record up, and i supported her, and i was the first one to testify for her. so it's been an awesome journey, it really has. and every one of those -- in fact, when i did the thing up on the corner with valerie jarrett and the vice president, he told me he was getting tired of getting me approved to get into the white house, he'd just get me a permanent pass. a lot of people think i only went one time. i was supposed to have been there last monday, but i already had the commitment in california, and i have never missed a commitment yet. i had the flu once and was trying to get over it, but the guy said could you just stand up at the podium for 15 minutes? we got people bussed in here to montgomery from birmingham and the surrounding areas.

so i got my husband to drive me, and i did the program. so i've kept my record. i haven't missed one yet. >> you're the energizer bunny. >> i'm getting close though. >> it's amazing. >> any other questions? i've got one in the back of the room. he's got the mic. >> if there was a movie, who would you pick to play the part of lily ledbetter? >> i'd like to have meryl streep. and there will be a meeting. we have an attorney meeting with a producer from california. that's all i know about him, and we do have offers from two of the tv channels this morning to make movies, but i'm waiting on the hollywood to get meryl streep. if i'd have gone with the publishing house at disney and abc, they have direct contact, but meryl streep does a lot of work for women. she's already given over a million dollars for the women's museum in washington d.c. and they have the land, and the

bill's been passed in the house, i know. so it's on a go. they're raising money. we don't have a women's museum in washington, but she'd be the one. she's got a younger daughter that they said could play me younger, so -- [laughter] that'd be my choice, but i don't think i'll have much influence. we've got a question right here. >> i'd just like to commend you for your tenacity and everything that you've done. and what else god has for you to do and that he continues to strengthen you in everything that he has ordained for you to do. what i would like to ask is did you not say that there's a paycheck fairness law that's to come up, and what's the hindrance? is it, i mean, are you receiving bipartisan support? is it just democrats? is it republicans? where is the state of that law as far as it being passed? >> it will come up again, and i've been told that it will pass, but what happened was

the -- crinkles. >> i got nervous. [laughter] not really, but if that had been the law when i worked at goodyear or shortly after, i could have found out because i did ask. goodyear said they wished i'd come to them first. i did. you know what my boss said? too much bs -- he didn't say bs, he said the exact words. i'd ask him from time to time to check and see about what was the top and middle and bottom cost of living, increase those figures. nobody at goodyear knew. i don't know if john back there knew or not. he worked there, i didn't know. i don't know if anybody ever knew. so i'd say, have you found out? he'd say, well, i haven't had time to check. and, you know, they were not going to give me an answer. so when i got the note, i went straight to eeoc because it was

time to stand up. but paycheck fairness will come up again. only reason it didn't pass last time, that was when they had just gone back in this, and there was no republican going to cross that line. they wouldn't cross it for nothing. because, see, the two, collins and the be other lady that's retiring this year, both of them -- i called 'em. they called me back. they called me at home. interesting. you folks will like this. i went and stayed up there in washington and knocked on all those doors. and back in those days it'd be a lawyer, a lobbyist from aauw, maybe one or two others sometimes, and we would call on the congress house people and then the senate. in the beginning we only got the assistants. now i can call, i walk in the door. mr. harry reid, i see harry reid. if it's rosa delawyer owe, i'll see her. if it's senator leahy from

vermont, i see him. and i've traveled all other the country for each -- all over the country for each one of those people. i've been to california for george miller, and i thanked him because it was his committee who named the law ledbetter. and i'm told that i'm the only alabamian with a law named for them. it's not common. and there's less than 35 in the history. i'll be going back to seattle law school next month, and they've been doing the research. so this is not a common thing, to have a law. and it's like congressman miller said, we don't name 'em for people like you, lil. he said, we name 'em for ourself. [laughter] whoever drafted the bill. any other questions? >> i also want to thank you as a

woman. >> talk in the mic. >> before you got that note, did you suspicion, did you have any suspicions that you were not being paid? >> common sense would tell me based on the treatment and so forth be, and a lot of the other things that you'll read in the book. common sense told me that they were not paying me what the men were being paid, but i was sort of a trailblazer. i don't think any woman had ever lasted as long as i did in that job. not to my knowledge, not in gadsden. and i felt like i was in the ballpark. but when i got that note and saw how much less and then calculating my overtime and my retirement, i wasn't even in the ballpark. i was in a different game, to tell you the truth. if i had been close, it would have been okay because they did the change from pay for performance they called it, but it was every which way they wanted to give the money out,

basically. but i did not know. i did not know, or i would have filed a charge, i can tell you. i filed a charge in the early '80s to get my job back and to keep from losing the job i had. and that's on record, too, and it's mentioned in the book as well. so i knew the system. i knew where to go. i knew how to file a charge. and i had worked for h&r block managing all those people in locations, and i knew the law. >> um, this question's really for landier. can you go through the process of you and lily linking up? i'd also like to know how many pages of notes you have from her. >> oh. >> thousands. thousands. i met lily right after the bill was signed when i did a profile for a statewide magazine. and when she decided she wanted to do a book, she knew she wanted an alabama writer. she liked the article a lot. >> yeah. >> we had a natural sort of rapport, and lo and behold, we

got together and started talking, or lily started talking, and i started listening and writing. but it was tough because lily was traveling so much, and we talked a lot on the phone. >> with yeah. >> and i did a lot of research. but it took a year of the research and interviewing and writing the book proposal to sell the book, nine months to finish the book and nine months to publication. so that was the process. >> [inaudible] >> thousands of pages. >> lots of 'em. and that is, the picture on the front is a birmingham photographer. so it's a birmingham photographer, an alabama writer and an alabama native. so i even carried her to possum trot. >> oh, yeah. [laughter] >> i carried her to possum trot too. >> yeah. we did a tour of possum trot. >> and where i grew up and all that section. that's on the video that's running for obama right now too.

>> and the family cemetery. >> huh? >> and the family cemetery. >> yeah. gotta go there to get the history. >> yeah. we had a good time. >> it's been a journey. >> it has been a journey. >> and the lawyer that i have in birmingham is the one that negotiate canned contract for lanier and the book agent in new york. he's not made a dime, he's not getting anywhere fast, and he had two children when we started together, and by the time we got through, he had four. [laughter] and he went to washington with me that first time, and he set right behind me during the testimony and was so mad, he was so infuriated. and when he came to aniston to do the trial, he is jewish, and he wasn't sure how the rural people in alabama would respect him or, you know, accept what he said, so he brought one of the partners in the firm who is a short, redhead sort of sandy-haired guy, and he -- but

john would get furious at him because he didn't do it exactly like he wanted. he's very, he's one of those precise people. but he has really been good to me, and when my husband died, he was there. he came to the receiving that night. he's always been there for me. he went to washington for the bill signing, that's an interesting story too. we got two or three books left here. [laughter] he was in aniston in court, and his wife had his assistant at work to get him a plane ticket from atlanta to washington to baltimore because her mother lives in baltimore. so she had him flying in to bwi and spending the night with her, but she called him and said, john, there's a thousand dollar plane ticket waiting for you at the delta counter in atlanta. you go over there, and you fly up there, and you go to that bill signing. and he really had a good time. he really enjoyed himself.

he got to meet a lot of people, and it was good. but he, somebody asked him what he did for clothes, he said he didn't have a bag, but he stopped at penny's and bought him a shirt and, i guess can, underwear, i didn't ask -- [laughter] he had fresh clothes, and it was good. he was there, the washington attorney was there, and kevin russell is the one that went to italy with me because john was the first choice, but he couldn't, he had a court trial, so he didn't go. and kevin tells his harvard students now that he lost the biggest case of his life, but he won a trip to rome, italy. [laughter] and i tell people that i didn't pay him, and he bought me a pair of italian leather shoes while we were over there. [laughter] so it's really been an interesting life, and, you know, a lot of places i go i don't have any money, i don't have any money that i get. i may go speak to a group, and when i leave they'll hand me an

envelope, and it'll have $160, 70 in it, and they'll have a note for gas. so i always come out. people have taken care of me or god has, i don't know. it's somebody told me that god wasn't finished with my life, and i guess he wasn't. and when i went to goodyear, they hired university of alabama to come up and give a series of tests. mine showed i was, my number one job should have been a politics or public speaking, and i thought that was the funniest thing i had ever read. [laughter] so now i tell college students, take those tests seriously, they mean something. [laughter] but if there are no other questions, we'll sell you some books, and we'll sign some books if you brought one. >> lily, maybe two last -- >> okay. >> did you get the pen? >> yes. i have it framed. oh, i've got to tell you about my house.

with my husband passing, all the boys took all of his things. they took, you know, all the military awards and things. there's only one left. and my middle grandson went to auburn, and he carried the big eagle, and he just spun it around away from the, you know, engraving, and he's got it down at auburn now. but they carried all that. i took the family pictures down, they all fussed at me they were up there too long, and now it look like a museum. i got the bill and the pen, and i got an honorary doctorate of law in 2010 from the city university of new york. i earned it, only took me 12 years to get that one. i could have gotten a real one in less, but that was quite an honor. and my daughter and my youngest grandson went on that trip. and those grandsons, their eyes get real big when we get off at the airport, and this person's standing over, ledbetter, and we

get in the limo, and they're driving us around. and he liked that. and the oldest one went with me in '08 when i went to harvard. he had just turned 21, so he went to harvard, him and his mother did. i also have a bat presented to me from louisville, kentucky, engraved, and it says: to lily, thanks for going to bat for the women of kentucky. and i have a big stick that's painted and designed from new york from queen latifah, got one of those. i have a huge, huge, waterford bowl on my dining room table that came from the ywca. about three years ago. the national convention. i have been honored so much. i took all of my china out of my china cabinet, and i had a glass collection of crystal and old glassware, you know, like you used to get out of -- [inaudible] somebody said, i liked it. and i took all that out, and i have all these rewards in it.

i go to military bases, come back with a bulldog. i mean, it's just hilarious. i went into the airport with that bulldog, and the guy said, you can't have that there. i said, i might as well have it there because y'all going to take it out, because they'll take it all out to see what it is. but it's really interesting, and the plaque from harvard last time, it had 77 cents at the top, so the young man i hired to come in and help me place, get all this fixed and framed, and the framing lady, she framed my pen and my bill free. and that's a $500 job. i also am now a kentucky colonel. i have the proclamation it was signed with. lilylily ledbetter proclaimed ie

state of illinois, and the governor came in both times and presented those. i've been to lily ledbetter day in chicago, and the commissioners did that one. and all over the country. and i really like new mexico and arizona and all the states that i've been. i've been everywhere and almost every state, and i go back two ask and three times. so it's really been an interesting life so far. >> we have lily ledbetter day in gadsden here too. >> you did. you sure did. the mayor had one, what was that, two, three years ago? and i sure did hope they'd give me that picture. it was the one with the green jacket. they had one blown up. i think it might have been bigger than that one on the wall. but they kept it. they kept it. they didn't give me that picture. [laughter] but he sure did, they gave me -- had lily ledbetter day here. i guess that's the only one in the state of alabama. i did get some proclamations

from the two governors we've had, but they had to come through the democratic people in montgomery. they didn't come from anybody. he didn't just volunteer 'em. >> last quick question. you went to an inaugural ball. >> i did. >> was the president a good dancer? >> yes. yes, he is, very good. he is. he's got a lot of rhythm. [laughter] >> how did you know how to dance so well? how did you know? >> i had ballroom dancing. that's where the grace came from on the book. the grace and grit. she found out that i did ballroom dancing for eight years and competed. i went all the way to the grand nationals in miami, florida -- >> and won. >> and won every one of them. >> she's a national champion ballroom dancer. [laughter] who knew? >> she said, you're a rubber worker, and you can ballroom dance? i said, well, you've got to do something to be a little interesting. [laughter] so that's where my granddaughter's name is grace, but it has nothing to do with her.

that strictly came from lanier, and i liked it. and the article she did for the magazine, they had the tire with grace on one side and the winged foot in the middle and grit. we couldn't do that on the book. [laughter] >> well, thank you for coming to the gadsden public library. >> thank you for having me. [applause] i want y'all to see the bracelet i'm wearing. it says don't settle for less. i really like that on college campuses. i have another one i found that says make a difference. and i did tell my pastor at my funeral i wanted that to be the last line, she made a difference. thank you. thank you folks for being here. thank you. [inaudible conversations] >> booktv has over 1 50,000 twitter followers. follow booktv to get scheduling updates, author

information and talk directly with authors during our live programming. twitter.com/booktv. >> the fact is, in our world which is up remarkably stifling when it comes to thinking about writing, about our politics, about the national security state, about what used to be called foreign policy but is now more accurately thought of as global military policy, we definitely need some guys in rooms even when, as with me, the rooms are very, very small. we need people willing to try to step back, ready to try to make their way out of the massive trees and actually take in the woods we're largely lost in. my book, "the united states of fear," is really what one guy in such a room could produce in a year of reading, writing, talking and doing my best to consider our american world and those in it that are accepted as ordinary reality. as those of you who read tom dispatch know, i like to run

long, framework-style pieces by others despite what everyone thinks about we'vety, attention spans and the internet. before jeremy and i talk, i'm going to read you two pieces, however, on the shorter side. the first, as you'll see, is really my thoughts about guys in rooms. i wrote it back in march 2010 well before our military was out of iraq and just after the supreme court issued its citizens united decision, but before it was utterly clear that the floodgates had been opened so wide that what might be called the politics of the rich in america would soon become simply american politics. i called it on being a critic, "all the world's a stage for us." in march 2010 i wrote about a group of pundits and warrior journalists eager not to see the military leave iraq. that piece appeared on the op-ed page of the los angeles times and in a longer version at tom dispatch.com and then began

wandering the media world. one of its stops, curiously enough, was the military newspaper stars and stripes. from a military man came this e-mailed response: read your article in "stars and stripes." when was the last time you visited iraq? a critique in 15 well-chosen words, so much more effective than the usual long, angry e-mails i get. and his point was interesting. at least it interested me. after all, as i wrote back, i was then a 65-year-old guy who had never been anywhere near iraq and undoubtedly never would be. i have to assume that my e-mailer had spent time there, possibly more than once, and disagreed with my assessments. firsthand experience is not to be taken lightly. what, after all, do i know about iraq? only the reporting i've been able to read from thousands of miles away or analysis found on the blogs of experts like juan cole. on the other hand, even from thousands of miles away i was

one of many who could see enough by early 2003 to go into the streets and demonstrate against an onrushing disaster of an invasion that a lot of people theoretically far more knowledgeable on iraq than any of us considered just the cat's meow, the cakewalk of the new century. it's true that i've never strolled down a street in baghdad or ramadi or basra, armed or not, and that's a deficit. if you want to write about the american experience in iraq. it's also true that i haven't spent hours sipping tea with iraqi tribal leaders or been inside the green zone or set foot on even one of the vast american bases that the pentagon's private contractors built in that country. be nor did that stop me from writing regularly about what i called and still call america's zig rots when most of the people who visited those bases didn't consider places with 20-mile perimeters, multiple bus lines, pxs, ugandan mercenary guards and who knows what else to be particularly noteworthy

structures on the iraqi landscape and so, with rare exceptions, worth commenting on. i'm certainly no expert on shiites and sunnis, i'm probably a little foggy on my iraqi geography, and i've never seen the tigris or euphrates rivers. on the other hand, it does occur to me that a whole raft of government pundits, military types who have done all of the above, who have spent time up close and personal in iraq or at least in the american version of the same couldn't have arrived at dumber conclusions over these vast many years. so firsthand experience, valuable as it may be for great reporters like "the washington post" and "the new york times" or patrick coreturn of the british independent can't be the be all and the end all either. sometimes being far away -- not just from iraq, but from washington and all the cloistered thinking that goes on there from the visibly claustrophobic world of american global policy making -- has its advantages. sometimes being out of it

experiencially speaking allows you to open your eyes and take in the larger shape of things which is often the obvious even if little noted. i can't help thinking about a friend of mine whose up close and personal take on u.s. military commanders in afghanistan was that they were trapped in an american-made box incapable of seeing beyond its boundaries of, that is, seeing afghanistan. i had no doubt thatting with there is generally something to be desired. but if you take your personal blinders with you, it often hardly matters where you are. thinking about my "stars and stripes" reader's question, the conclusion i provisionally come to is this: it's not just where you go, it's also how you see what's there and, no less important be, who you see that matters. which means that sometimes you can actually see more by going nowhere at all. an iraqi tragedy. when american officials, civilian or military, open their eyes and check out the local landscape no matter where they've landed, all evidence

indicates that the fist thing they tend to see -- the first thing they tend to see is themselves. that is, they see the world as an american stage and those native actors in countries we've invaded or occupied or where -- as in pakistan, somalia or yemen -- we conduct what may be called semi-war. this is why in both iraq and afghanistan military commanders and top officials like secretary of defense robert gates or national security adviser james jones continue to call so utterly unself-consciously for putting an iraqi or afghan face on whichever war was being discussed. that is, to follow the image to it logical conclusion putting an iraqi or afghan mask over a face that they recognize, however inconveniently or embarrassingly, as american. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> next, in this hourlong