including you, what would be the most important variable to create major change in this country i think everyone would have agreed the sudden death of the north korean leader so i think we have to respect what we saw before and we have to watch for a closely what is going to happen because i think the future of this regime is not at all certain come into the ramifications of something happened with the huge for the united states and others in the region in a way that would matter for the average american and that's why i wanted to write this book. >> host: i think we had a very good conversation, and i appreciate the chance to further explore some of the issues that are in the book.

..

>> host: slaves away been for sale. abolitionist art and the american slave trade. >> growth was a young british artist who was unprepared. he crow wondered down to the slave auction and there be

held the auction of humans for the first time and was captivated and painted the number of images in order to raise awareness of american slavery. >> host: was tv abolitionist? >> i suspect he where it -- was aware of the movement and good describe himself as being opposed the after witnessing the slave auction the than described himself as the abolitionist. he was not politically active. he was not a member of the many organizations that existed after the end of british slavery but where a team hot and publishing images were just as

important. >> host: why did he come to the states? >> the volume novelists second only to charles dickens beloved by americans was odd a speaking to our. crow father was a good friend said he invited him to come along but crow was a highly trained artist in his early 20s he traveled up and down the eastern seaboard he made sure the launch -- lodgings were taking care of but he was sketching the whole way. they differed on their

impression of slavery factory decided he would not speak publicly because opted years earlier charles dickens came to america and excoriated americans about slavery. he had a will chapter against america and it hurt his sales. said he remained mum for commercial reasons. but you get a sense he was patrician in his abuse and did not see it all that bad. >> host: what is this the name? >> the culminating statement crow made against slavery -- slavery.

entitled slaves waiting for sale. displayed 1861. the boy real academy, premier institution for exhibiting works of art was not typically political. most of the works were expected not to be too extreme. bell me artistically innovative. there have been very few pictures exhibited that beecher people of african descent. some but not many this is

not just featuring african descent but clearly a political statement opposed to american slavery. with the amazing coincidence it opened may 7, 1861, the first shot was fired at fort sumter previously all of london was talk paying about to the war of all so what role should the united kingdom take in the american war. many were in favor of supporting the confederate because of the money they made from american cotton. britain remained neutral but at that moment nobody knew

what would happen. >> host: where their slaves in great britain at that time? >> guest: no. it had been abolished officially 1838. it had been of long time since it was directly involved but it is the place where the entice debris movements began and was quite involved after words trying to end u.s. slavery then they continued in brazil and cuba until long after americans they agreed ended. >> host: as the art historian walk us through this painting. >> guest: i tried to block the workers through the painting to reconstruct the of painting crow would have

seen march 3rd, 1853. and the experience who were caught up. 18231860 estimated more than 350,000 slaves were sold taken away from their families sent thousands of miles away to alabama, mississippi and the book tries to tell that story. we go on a journey with crow starting in the hotel where he stayed, picked up the newspaper and was astonished

is that when he went to the market? >> guest: while 10 new york city he bought "uncle tom's cabin" that was just released. he was harrowed by the contents and he was attracted to the slave trade. the commercial aspect, of the selling of humans. he was determined to witness this aspect. he opens the newspaper and sees several advertisements.

he asked somebody where the sales were located. just a few blocks away from jefferson capitol building the great symbolic and lynch of democracy but yet to three blocks away people were sold six-- per week thousands a newly sold within cent south. so "the reader" could go on with that journey. during research john d. the end commercial directories to understand where it took place in relation to the of

their biggest mrs. , industry, a church, state buildings, none of them are far removed but the slave trade was talk the way. you would not go there unless you have reason. they were not ashamed to but not proud. virginia slave economy was not growing but stagnating. the agriculture economy was stagnating. reason why so many slaves are sold because there were not to news play is needed but with the new cotton land of the southwest. and new owner may have excess capacity almost

always breaking up families because what sold was aged 15 through 30 years. has been sad wives, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers and their children. most slaves were not purchased by slave owners but traders then taking them hundreds of miles away away, marching them with the men were chained it together and walk as far from richmond to new orleans. as the real system group complete it was more common to go by railroad then sold again to the slave owners.

then put to work. >> host: what was the going price? citywide it varied. we know there was a market that divided people in two categories. a had a price sheet. it listed it prime then. boys. 4-foot 3 inches and above. for flood and above. most were the mail field hands. older or younger your slaves going for less. about $1,000 or less. >> host: how did crow do

his work? >> guest: there is a great story we know from two sources, crow account and a new yorker. crow says joaquin been and being the stunned. the smells, the site dm sound emotions of the slaves and he stood there in silence. and going to the second and the third nbc's said group of slaves before the sale awaiting their fate. u.s. moved contract that he snatched up the pen and paper and began to make a

sketch. the first everybody was interested in what he was doing. then the sale would commence. the audience is much more interested what crow is doing. of the auction near says what you doing? he returns and tries again and is not able to attract the attention. another commented and by the third time the auctioneer is so a great year realizes he better leave so they hope they will forget about him

but the entire audience slaves, auctioneer, come to get him because they knew he was the abolitionist. one linklater rating about interested you would not sketch the slave auction unless you were a abolitionist and he was surprised he could get away without harm civic the only other major southern city was charleston and savannah. it was more public. south carolina was one of the most proslavery states in the union.

many pros slavery authors were coming in very public. it took place in the largest open square in this city. >> host: was it considered an activity? >> daily spectacle. today will be would call the colonial exchange building. what was then a post office office, everyday at 11:00 a.m. and they wear held outside landesk city ordinance moves them in doris because it was blocking traffic. >> host: losses crow a

well-known painter? >> not at all. the painting is exhibited in the royal academy and illustrated in the london news but not the broad lead known purpose is a topic that could not be exhibited and american men exhibition hall, it even in the north. there is still the strong southern fried men because of the amount of money the york makes. there are many sympathizers.

maybe it boston you could the exhibits of the things similar, but it would be difficult. american artist did not paint a subject as difficult as this. really touching bonds bravery because they did not want to offend their southern customers. >> host: was there's chandra of abolitionist art? >> guest: there is. my book tries to trace the story talking about how the imagery get to the topic of the slave auctions. but the earliest image shows

the international slave trade. an image bruce 7097 show reinvests leadership with hundreds of african bodies trying to demonstrate the war. it is the iconographic image today. toots trace that evolution but dealt with people of anonymously. hundreds of bodies lying next to each other. but crow focuses you are part of families. and there is a major e and between country being slaves to think of the impact.

what is a radical and why it attracted the attention of the critics is because it was a new image. not the auctioneer on the auction block, going going gone was well known and rehearsed. and it lost a lot of meaning but he chefs before the auction and when the people are sitting there pondering their fate. that commercial impact he can put forth that brings it to the attention of the critics. >> host: when was the

first time crow paintings displayed? >> guest: 20th century. of unknown from the last exhibition until sold to the american collector and the 1950's. we don't know what happened in the meantime. not well known. once slavery and did there was the diminished interest. >> who owns it today? >> it is owned by a two visa finance kerry and the family has a very important collection the heinz family bought it in the fifties. i teach 1/3 to history which

is traditional from the renaissance to specialized crosses on coulter 27 we have talked about slavery and what can you learn through this study of art? >> one of the stories is the world and which images are received to. but to understand the impact those images had. they play a major bowl to shape the way people understood the anti's slavery sentiment. and refi about your history

images help to move the conversation. "uncle tom's cabin" had an enormous impact in the way decades felt the americans slavery had not reached a wide audience. but the combination of telling stories through pitchers to help spread anti-slavery sentiment. >> host: when did the art of photography become an issue with slavery? >> guest: only in the u.s. civil war as federal troops began to occupy southern cities it was not uncommon

to photograph sites the canvas what we know but those are related to the history. but mostly relating to the war. the evidence is scant. >> host: of people interested to see abolitionist are to where do they go? >> guest: an enormous amount on line. the vast amount of imagery was produced lower publication pamphlets, almanacs, of books, almost all are illustrated. google bookstore in a variety of libraries bettered digitizing, a lot is available on line.

to a simple goal search of abolition best imagery. >> host: what if they want to see the real peace? >> this painting is not of public view daily. i am working with an exhibition to be held 2014 that is called to be sold and certainly hopeful we will have that ptsd well as the other surviving painting on american slavery at the exhibition. that is a long way off the others survived painting is owned by the chicago history museum that collected broadly because of the interest of abraham lincoln

and the period after the civil war museum that exhibited hundred of artifacts collected to tell the story of the civil war and one of the most important chapters in this of u.s. slavery. >> guest: there are dozens of paintings from crow but other than their brief period of his trip when he painted the last picture guide you leslie bree. most of his works are lost then he returned to british literary scenes people liked that as well. >> host: have you seen

those paid tames? >> i spent a lot of time with them. starting with the work of art is a document to study the details you begin to ask questions with the clothes they are wearing. with more research to learn slaves were dressed very well for sale to take away bad brutality of their history to make them see more appealing. you notice the green room been that the boy grasps. there is no explanation. noblemen wearing so i

speculate he took it from his mother or sister as a memory because he knows it is likely he will never see that person again. is asking questions then turning to other sources. >> host: what do you see that we don't see in the reproduction? >> guest: a does leave out a significant portion. of the book is tall but the painting is wide. near is the male slave ceded all loan. he is not depicted as decades of men have ben.

he is not have the awaiting his fate, he is angry. the fist is clenched. he is query the insolent and angry. the critics of notice that. there has never been in a angry man before and that was his political that true abolitionist coming out he was a slave who could resist with force if necessary. on the left-hand side are white men entering into the room.

fate of our potential buyers. they probably present slow this story that crow tries to tell. not just on this one day, but the thousands who pass through a newly over the decades. in its own way, by not giving us a resolution we don't know the fate. in 1861, and nobody knew the fate of the war or britain's involvement. and specifically captured

the moment of uncertainty. >> host: who are other abolitionist artist? >> guest: very few. most stayed away. turner it exhibited a painting the slave ship that there will academy but today in most captured the english and pain of the international slave trade. a very small ship on this the lots of fish swimming and it is clear this slave was thrown overboard and is being consumed. is not didactic but allows

the motion of brushwork and color to tell the story instead of a narrative the motion of brushwork and color to tell the story instead of a narrative approach is in accordance with victorian story telling which is different from turner which is why we know his painting best. >> host: professor mcinnis you have another picture of slaves escape being attacking dogs. >> guest: but was a very famous and double artist. he mostly painted animals dogs, horses, steerer and

this is the only one he did that touched on slavery. to slaves are running away being chased by large dogs. it to was exhibited at the exhibition ends a you have a great moment to compare the response of critics to both of them. and they perversion crow painting. with the bit of studio romance. they knew he was in america. published as a journalist. it was the small world.

they saw truth. others had never witnessed slavery. his work was more dramatic. it is a beautiful picture. there are two versions. won a owned by liverpool playing a part in the slave trade, the painting is there and a second version was purchased by the new smithsonian museum of african-american history and culture. i assume that will be on view. >> host: it is a couple. not to males. when we you interested? >> guest: i have long

written about the history of the 18th and 19th century. by a teacher at the anniversary of virginia. history is all around us. i have been teaching of this painting for years thinking there is a story waiting for us to rediscover. a book recently came out since 2006. >> there are two wonderful books about al qaeda and the town of van. david works on another

biography at this time. great books come out every year better worth reading. the book on steve jobs is of perfect example. an international phenomenon because of what we could learn from it. i read eclectic leave. i read a book about the fishermen and the 48 campaign that was wild. truman, wallace, the first election after the war terry anderson and the book of

george bush my wife just finished catherine the great. i need to go get involved in that. i read a lot of magazine essays. i open end correspondence with the po with about growing old and it spoke to me. i am not of great writers per barrel pretend pretend -- pretend to me i am energetic and pretty good but great writers move me. >> host: "the lost promise of civil rights" published by