morning at eight eastern. nonfiction books all weekend every weekend right here on c-span2. >> next on c-span2, "the communicators." .. >> host: this week on "the communicators," a look at the software industry, and we're

pleased to have joining us robert holleyman who is president and ceo of the business software alliance to talk about his industry and some of the legislative issues that it faces. mr. holleyman, if you would, start by giving us a brief overview of the software industry in the united states. >> guest: sure. well, the business software alliance represent over 70 companies who are the world's leading innovators around software. we are a trade association based here in washington, d.c. because the u.s. has had a unique role in building the global software market which is about $300 billion a year now. we have 13 foreign offices because the fastest growing markets for software are in the global markets, and when software companies look to those opportunities, they're really asking us to try to help get the right public policy in place. it allows those companies to grow not only here at home, but

internationally. >> host: how many employees -- how many people are employed by the software industry in the united states? >> guest: well, the software industry has other a million -- over a million people that are both directly and indirectly employed. it's estimated that as much as 60 cents of every dollar spent on software around the world comes back to u.s.-based companies. this is really a remarkable leader both in terms of technology innovation for the globe, but also a real era which the u.s. has been quite successful. certainly not the only successful nation for software, but sort of a high degree of success that we should be proud of in this country. >> host: and finally, what are some of the companies that are represented by the business software alliance? >> guest: well, they're very innovative companies like apple, adobe, microsoft, symantec, companies that are at the heart of using software as tool to

facilitate both for consumers and businesses more productivity and also lots of great entertainment as well. >> host: mr. holleyman, does that include -- the software industry, does that include apps? >> guest: it does, absolutely. software industry is everything that runs from a pc to a mainframe to a mobile device to an app. i think your question is exactly the right one, we probably know more about software today than ever before because we carry these devices around with lots of cool apps that allow us to do all sorts of things. that's software-enabled devices. >> host: well, we invited you on to talk about some of the legislative and regulatory issues your industry faces, and joining us as well is jennifer martinez, reporter for politico. >> host: thanks for having me. one thing i wanted to ask you about was a report that bsa released where it found nearly $63.4 billion worth of software was pirated in 2011. and that's up from $59 billion

from the prior year. so why is that happening, that rise, and what can the government do about it? >> guest: it's a great, great question, jennifer. um, that report is really a hallmark report that shows what's happening on world markets in terms of software utilization including a lot of piracy or theft of software. it is $63 billion value of pirated software last year. and 42% of all the software that was put into use last year was unauthorized. what we find is really two things are happening. there is piracy all over the world including in the united states. although the united states has the lowest piracy rate of any country in the world at 19%. but the fastest growing markets for sales of new personal computers are outside the u.s. the brick countries, brazil, russia, india, china, great

examples. last year china surpassed the united states as the largest new market for the sale of legal computers. but china has a extraordinarily high rate of software piracy, nearly 80%. and so that growth of foreign markets for sales of pcs coupled with higher rates of piracy in those markets is what's driving the global value of piracy up. >> host: and what can the government do about that? especially with china since it's such a big offender of ip rights? is there anything more the administration can do? i know the vice president has brought it up when he's gone to china and talked about it in economic talks, but anything the administration can do or congress can do legislatively? >> guest: that's a great question. this really has become a national priority not just for the software industry, but more be broadly. and that is because software is a tool of production.

every business is using software in some form or fashion to enhance their productivity. we talk about software piracy, we're not necessarily talking about something that's downloaded off the internet, although that may be. we're not necessarily talking about a counterfeit copy, although that is a problem. what we're talking about is went otherwise legal businesses in every sector is using software as part of their production, and what we find in high piracy markets like china, most businesses are not using legal software, but they are getting the productivity benefits. so it hurts businesses in main street america who, by and large, are using the legal software and paying for those licenses. so that's why we've seen not on only the president -- the vice president raise this, but president obama has personally raised this with hu jintao on multiple occasions. we've seen bipartisan members of

congress weaging in on this issue. -- weighing in on this. it hurts competitiveness across america, it hurts american jobs. >> host: mr. holleyman, a couple months ago you wrote a piece for the mercury news about a specific example of how china is abusing ip rights and bsa personally. can you tell us that story? >> guest: sure. that's a great example of court-ordered action that we obtained in china which, with some cooperation certainly from chinese authorities, it allowed us to go into an enterprise and inspect their computers to determine whether or not pirated software was being used. in fact, we found pirated software being used within a company, and as part of the next steps what happened is that the company after the law enforcement authorities were allowed in became very belligerent, essentially almost

forcibly ushered bsa and law enforcement authorities out, and the next day, unfortunately, the woman who was our lawyer, the chinese woman who was our lawyer was asked by the ceo of the company to meet with her to talk about a possible resolution of the case, and she was attacked. in the facility where they were meeting. now, that's an example of the fact that there was some initial -- there was initial support by the government in china to bring an action, but the culture of disrespect for intellectual property rights and disrespect for the rule of law was so extreme that we saw that type of activity which, candidly, can have a chilling effect on the ability of many people to try to force their rights. fortunately, the young woman who was our attorney is out of the hospital, she's doing much better, we're working on that case and, hopefully, we'll get a resolution. but it's an example of the type

of problems we face not from hard core counterfeiters, but from an otherwise legal business operation in that country where the rule of law is really flaunted without the belief that there'll be any penalties from it. >> host: have you seen improvements, stricter regulations, stricter enforcement from the chinese government? are you seeing the same flouting of the law? >> guest: yeah. no, we -- it's a great question. we are seeing, certainly, some signs of progress. i mean, as a result of the commitments that china has made to the united states government, the chinese government it is taking actions to make sure that the chinese government uses only legal software. not completed, but progress is being made. the big opportunity in china now is to look at the state-owned enterprises which comprise such a huge part of the chinese economy. and there china has committed to the united states that they will take steps to insure that

state-owned enterprises and then other enterprises use only licensed legal software. those commitments are firm, but we have not yet seen proof in terms of increased legitimate sales by u.s.-based companies to believe that those promises have yet been fulfilled. >> host: jennifer martinez. >> host: i have a question. so after it doesn't seem like much is going to get done in congress with the election coming up so near. so post the election are you hoping that anti-piracy legislation comes up again? and that effort had failed earlier this year where there were two bills looking to crack down on foreign rogue sites or people based abroad that are infringing on american ip. so are you hoping that effort gets picked up again next year? >> guest: you know, that discussion is a very important one, and bsa is really at the

intersection of both an industry that suffers from a substantial piracy problem -- software industry's the largest copyrighted industry in the world -- but also an industry that's at the heart of innovation. we very much believe there always has to be a balance between appropriate tools that allow actions to be taken to prevent and stop piracy, but insuring that it allows both the innovative technology to flourish and innovative uses of that technology. so we look forward to being part of that discussion. i think the real important part of that discussion, however, is really looking to the future. to new ways in which software will be distributed, new ways in which content will be distributed, and that's why our efforts around the development of cloud computing are really at the heart of what bsa's focusing on now, and those are issues that we are talking to congress about. and they're important for the development of the u.s. economy going forward.

>> host: uh-huh. one thing i wanted to follow up on, too, was bsa had supported pippa, and when first released i think you had sent out a saint when sopa -- sent out a statement when sopa was released. it commended the crafting of the bill, but it didn't go all the way and support the bill. some people had interpreted that statement to be a statement of support, and then bsa later -- i believe you later published a blog post saying that there still needed to be some balance included in that bill and some work needed to be done. so i just wanted to see what happened there and, um, what were your concerns with sopa? >> guest: well, we always believe that you have to balance the intellectual property protection which is the underpinning for the kind of innovation that happens in software with the type of use of

the internet that is critical to both users, customers, to businesses and to new, innovative companies. we encourage the committee to continue to work on getting the balance right. the committee ultimately determined that this was not the year to pass any legislation, and so we want to be part of that discussion going forward. but if we support any legislation in the future -- and not saying we will or won't -- it has to get the balance right, and we want to be at the table talking about that balance. and we think that reasonable approaches can be done that allow us to tackle the problem of blatant piracy but insuring the kind of innovation that we're all for flourishes and grows. >> host: mr. holleyman, were you surprised by the outcry over sopa and pipa? >> guest: well, i was not surprised by the fact that the citizens had become empowered with this technology that we've

developed that allows citizens to weigh in on a whole host of issues. not only this issue, but we see this in other governments, in other countries. citizens are empowered by that. that's a great thing. what i think we have to understand is that there has to be a balance. citizens' voices need to be heard, and i'm confident that in this process going forward we will see a even better understanding of technology issues because you'll have not only companies, but you'll have individual users coming forward with their ideas. and then that's where we depend on elected officials and others to balance those views. >> host: you are watching "the communicators," c-span's weekly look at technology policy and the folks behind it. joining us this week is robert holleyman process president and ceo of the business software alliance and jennifer martinez of pretty -- "politico."

next question. >> host: okay. so is there any specifically about sopa, anything particular about that bill where you thought it went too far, that, you know, when congress returns to this issue of tackling piracy, they should keep in mind and sort of check themselves? >> guest: well, look, i think the important lesson from that discussion is getting this balance right with innovation. but the important lesson also then is what does this mean globally? we do see several nations that are havens for piracy. that is something that is not in the u.s. industry interests, it's not in the u.s. economic interests, and it's not in the interests of computer users for that to happen. and we need effective tools to deal with that. but i'm also looking at the series of barriers that countries are erecting right now that will make it difficult for u.s.-based technology companies to succeed in the global market.

not only by fostering piracy, but the type of barriers that we're seeing that promote local products, indigenous innovation that block foreign competitors, new barriers around standards that countries, particularly china again, india in part are trying to erect that look to domestic standards whether they're internationally-set standards to a series of barriers around cloud computing that would require companies to build data centers country by country which breaks up the economic efficiency of cloud computing or that limits the ability of data to flow across borders. so we are in a incredibly important era for the future troth of the software -- growth of the software industry and the future of american-based companies to be successful for which things like sopa/pipa matter, but they're only one element where what the u.s. does

will need to take account of what's happening internationally. and we have to break down barriers where we see them exist, but also find a balance that allows innovation to flourish. >> host: mr. holleyman, when it comes to cloud computing, is that the future of the software industry? and where does cybersecurity and cybersecurity legislation play a role in the cloud computing industry? >> guest: well, um, cloud computing is the biggest new be innovation in the computing industry in over two decades. it's estimated to be $73 billion value in just the next couple of years. and really cloud computing, what it means -- we all aeroa lot about it -- hear a lot about it, but it just means software can be delivered as a service, and it can be delivered efficiently and in some cases less expensively in ways that enables individual consumers, small businesses and others to really

gain the advantages of that software. um, it is a huge growth of interest in economic activity in the u.s. software industry. it's critical for that to be successful, that we have the type of security protections that when data is stored not on one's personal computer, but when data is stored in the cloud -- hence the name -- you have to make sure it's secure. but you also have to make sure that data can flow between borders because in this seamless world of the internet as a means of distribution, the economic efficiency occurs not just in a city or a state or a country, but when you bring all this together. but to have that kind of confidence that you need for businesses and consumers to use the cloud, you have to have the data is secure. and we have to have tools to deal with the real threats of cybersecurity. >> host: so are you, is your industry in support of the cybersecurity legislation that's

currently being promoted by, especially by majority leader reid and senators collins and lieberman? >> guest: we are absolutely in support of the effort by the majority leader to bring up cybersecurity legislation on the senate floor after the 4th of july recess. as you know, the house has already acted to adopt three cybersecurity-related bills. the ball's really in the court of the senate. there certainly are discussions that are continuing about what form that final be legislation would -- that final legislation would take, and we encourage those discussions to find a acceptable compromise and middle ground to occur, but we do think it's important for the senate to act and for the president to be able to sign a balanced cybersecurity bill before the end of this year. >> host: jennifer martinez. >> host: so say in a perfect world, you know, the senate did bring up senator lieberman's bill, it did pass, got signed

into law, would you be supportive of that? >> guest: well, i think we all know that the lieberman/collins bill is likely, if it is approved by the senate, to be modified further in the conference with the house. and we do believe that there is a balanced approach to cybersecurity that can deal with three critical issues. one, making sure that the federal systems are more secure and that when federal agencies are storing data, when they're connected to the internet as they are, that they have not just security on paper, but they have continual monitoring process so that the most sensitive federal data is secure. secondly, we need more research and development around cybersecurity and the nature of the threats. um, it's critical to do it. everyone who looks at that believes we do not yet have enough trained professionals to work in the area of cybersecurity, particularly in supporting the government.

and then, finally, you need a balanced approach to information sharing that allows cybersecurity threat information to be shared between the private sector and the government and vice versa. so that we can track problems as they emerge, we can martial our forces to attack them and build a more secure nation. those are bedrock principles. there are other issues that will be discussed including how you deal with critical infrastructure. it's too early to tell how those will be resolved, but we think they will be resolved, and we think that it's important that we get a bill this year and that bill be signed into law. >> host: uh-huh. and right now on that subject of critical infrastructure senators jon kyl, sheldon whitehouse, barbara mikulski are trying to work on this compromise effort to bring the two sides together on what's the best way to secure critical infrastructure; power plants, you know,

telecommunications networks. so there was a draft circulated of what that compromise looks like. >> guest: right. >> host: at this point still really early, but it did kind of lay out a framework of where they're going, and the u.s. chamber of commerce said they didn't like what they saw. iti, another trade group in the tech industry also voiced some concerns about it. what are your thoughts on that? >> guest: well, that -- we are applauding the effort by those senators to try to find a balanced approach to how you deal with the critical infrastructure in this country and insuring that it's protected against the kind of cyber threats that we know exist. it has to be balanced, you have to make sure that it is not overly regulatory, you have to make sure that there are the right protections there, and you have to insure that industry-led technologies can be deployed. that outline, i'm sure, will change going forward.

i can't, um, support that provision yet because we have to see what it looks like, but we absolutely support the process that those senators are working on to try to find a workable, balanced solution around critical infrastructure. >> host: robert holleyman, one other aspect of the cybersecurity issue which you raised was information sharing. and that raises the issue of privacy, and people have a real concern about cloud computing and sharing information between private sources and the government. um, how do you address those concerns? >> guest: privacy concerns are hugely important, and we are very big believers that you need the protections in any law to insure that private information by individuals, businesses is kept private. at the same time, we know that there is a carefully defined and relatively narrow set of

information around cyber threats. where more information sharing is essential for us to both identify and prevent those threats from occurring. and there we believe that the house bill made a lot of progress in the trying to address the privacy issues by putting the right protections in this place, that'll insure that there can be sharing of information between private sector and government, but it has to be limited. the cyber threat information and there also are additional protections that are there. so getting that balance, again, right is critical, but it's also critical to be able to hair that information because if -- to share that information because if we cannot do that, then everyone is at risk. and i think we can recognize that can be done in a balanced fashion. >> host: and real quick, going back to the compromise proposal, the issues that the chamber of commerce and iti had with that was that it was too

heavy-handed, and it seemed like it would regulate a bunch of industries including i'm i.t. companies. did you see those red flags when you saw the framework? >> guest: we welcome the addition of the discussion those senators are trying to drive. i'm sure since that first be outline was put out it's changed even further. we keep talking about balance. you know, i look at critical infrastructure as an important thing to address. few people, candidly, care about what happens as a nation to the threats to an individual computer that i have on my desk or my home or that either of us have. but when those things become amalgamated in ways that they deal with things like the electric grid and other things, people do care about it. so i think it is appropriate to find a way to identify what is critical infrastructure, to identify the kind of new, innovative, try-led technologies

that can protect that. -- industry-led technologies that can protect that. that will be valuable for us as a nation to feel more secure, but that has to be done without a heavy hand from government. but it is appropriate and important for that to be part of the discussion, and we hope it is part of the final bill. >> host: uh-huh. and, um, when sis pa was being considered in the house and ultimately passed and it was clear that the majority of the house did support that bill, there were protests from a lot of the same groups that rose up during sopa and pipa and tried to mimic that by turning to social media to get their voice out. and there had been some fear, i know, for supporters of that bill that those protests could possibly have derailed this bill from passing, which it ultimately didn't. but now that concern is rising up again now that the senate is getting ready to act. is that a concern for you, are you afraid that those concerns about privacy could possibly

impact the senate from moving forward on their bill? >> guest: you know, i, again, i'm all for be citizens being empowered to raise issues directly with their government. we created the software technology that enables that to happen, and that's a great thing. the call is in for congress to figure out what the right balance is, but i'm confident that people who are weighing in also want to make sure that we have tools to deal with this very real and escalating cyber threat that exists. and recognizing that people are for means of trying to tackle that problem, i think congress will be able to reach a balance on this. but it's important that it be done this year. we've seen an escalating number of threats. the u.s. has a position of global leadership that we have to evidence, and simply waiting for this for another 12 months or 18 months, i think, is far too risky for the u.s. to do.

so i think we can get the balanced approach we need, and i'm encouraged by the efforts we see, and we clearly want this bill and issue to be brought up after the 4th of july recess. >> host: and, unfortunately, we are out of time. we have been talking with robert holleyman who is the president and ceo of the business software alliance, bsa.org is the web site. and jennifer martinez of "politico" has been our guest reporter. >> host: thank you. >> coming up on c-span2, a governors' round table on jobs, the economy and other issues. at a recent summit of the u.s. chamber of commerce. then remarks by chamber president and ceo tom donohue. at 10:30 eastern live coverage of a conference by the group campaign for america's future on ways to energize the democratic base before this year's elections. and later, more live coverage as florida congressman alan west, a

member of the house small business committee and congressional black caucus, hosts a forum examining policies needed to stimulate economic empowerment in the african-american community. >> tomorrow, jpmorgan chase president and ceo jamie dimon testifies before the house financial services committee. you can watch it live tuesday at 10 a.m. eastern on c-span3. and on wednesday british prime minister david cameron takes questions during his weekly session with members of the house of commons. one of the possible topics, his testimony last week before the leveson inquiry that's examining the phone-hacking scandal and the relationship between british politicians and the press. prime minister's questions airs live at 7 a.m. eastern here on c-span2. ..