sewrwhich i were cite for you,asically allowed police officers to make a pretextual stop based on race ethnicy and nati on. itla ohend congurprur esur smecots wicis w we exhort th congress and this senate to step in when we know there is a problem that has not yet come to the attention of our supreme court. will tt,ha you t y mye p. i tanl he es is ba , pot us hng and we have some areas of disagreement, which i think we need to exore further, buwao k icly . ahiavor yoxcntk t s awornt and thank the chairman and substituting chairman for their tolerance and patience. i tnk y allll thai. 'sto >> you know, i think i need the ad -- i have a right to the rema st, d't >>, yodo >>ortei a poeno goto myst aheu'et gaanu'e ai aetry respect being called the chairman. thank you, senator blumenthal. everyone here has talked about

thmpnc opio o w orntfi coitthsendt seems everyone agrees it racial profiling can undermine trust in the authorities and can cause resentment among targete groups nna om age la omamens in my opinion, no community was more upset when thhern t so-acaadne toomndconvolved with al shabaab. when i talked to both the fbi director muller and more importantly when i went back to the twinitieand lkedo eci a ge th bsahae li community had been cooperative in fbi investigations. and i think it was because of actually very good police work and very good work bthe fbi in nge tea t trof si un er my questions are to chief davis and to officer gale. th oyove sve l enemofrs w oun trof rsmmieat e? some of which -- some of whom may initially skeptical of the police?

>> thank you, senator, and one stop at a time. onday at aime. onteio ae. i k pe t av, awl t stpo hpl. rof enemwi rdran cry. we still have generationof people that remember the gregion. haveernspl threlle mbhe e cee enem aul litga im clad k laws. we have to acknowledge we might start off with this lack of trust and confidence. it's one interaction at a time. i think the rs thing w enemca i kndgt. taurds oe aclethe hfist sd owe w whether intentionally or not, are still engaginginct hpa rti in rar pe ol. whr ndr weult nseswn ree e trv t eranlyng becel ifhe community engages with us, and the more we engage with them the safer we make them. the safer we make our communities, the more they'll partner with us. with the evidence that's showing time and time ain of each macindmu, ro telns ben po ainy coit tre t crreio g t. o neerona . o y infi accountabl but we also do it by acknowledging that which is in front of us. there is no grter sults a ris soe oo memys in m inig bllmere otfi wevhi abmewst s. anthink

that happens with our communities and we need to stop doing that. >> officer gale? >> i think i aee with the iehaue i e ontt b i inu t m gl. u tokth community you serve and the diffent populations in that community and you have to make a concerted effort to be in those communities and having dialogue with those people and you ve to listen. d oe mr y t agwiheng thhey. s i in mar anweo adip ol thama that said any problem real or perceived is still a problem, and i agree with that and i've tat d'tte ino e albl ifs eitoa prm om o aup snee tst av vat a we have to dialogue thrgh it and i think we have to take encies and train agenci to understand who these pulations ar aty'er. d crn t cire agalith ievi thyoow hto kndge or l enem it has not always been one of stelr conduct, and i think thathat's being done in a lot of organizations. i k hete o ofic tabity ne aany o er aayisth yoedgoime yoelnsh communities that you serve. and so it's importanto do those things, to hear what they have to say. t aiman ai twhhe chngre

whe t i'r in pctpl atu -atre ceththales, when we are protecting communities, and it's important for us to illustra tt to individuals tommuty. usouw,on pet. t e rs eot er wal m i think when there are these honest misunderstandings, we can ve past them. >> thank you. mrrome, in your wrten teon bf heu, u e t ce rtlunvered fbi training materials that rely on bigoted stereotypes of muslims. i thk we can all agree that the maals are no cele fbre mer owedt e tes gee s tiiph slim counities, and i commend chairman durbin for his recent letter to the fbi on the subject d i'workg lr es crn w ro, ansul e tao tit ses t rmit ai pam >> thank you f the question, senator franken. and, yes, what i would first int ofrsho s fianai alrpd when we used the freedom of information act we go asking for documents thate don't know exist.

and wed fom inatac dra y. ho goctst ne that questions, hunches, based on conduct of what we've seen already when the fbi's been tracking young muslim men between the ages of 18 and 33 asking them to come in for voluntary fingerprinting, otph mng ue adunhed av sorag rith g t tlind obti and lamentably our hunches were borne out. i think, frankly, ongha th n-- i w ur aec le isanitwhe g diees. wesuimen times, but for the record, he's a man of enormous credibility. he's probably the man in the justice department botunder e ahemam ie grst rs rd ret. n no and with all that i encourage you to encourage him to take a much more active position on these threat assessments, which i fear arenly the tip of the iceberg. e rnen gli w tho n inignsan t ch sngthanim they're doing it to gain information on criminal activities, national security or foreign intelligence. d am opog e atests thim, e kn ngseghst, honythth

assessments have been opened? how many of them are ongoing? they allow them to collect unlimited physical surveillanc eraheor gel etthe esressenbu veirteou a thi o vou rein yevf s in camera. retraining is essential. remember, all the folks that got thovli c sng thabd cer mianm inrb is a cluster thinker while the western mind tends to be a linear thinker. they were trained on this. soilren a llm ts th cawavee , the g one o e vi. sohietin esiandbintthe assessments and how those assessments are used particularly ia muslim context would be alace of imrt focus. haou anu, cma tiouba so you alrea took thgavel. didn't you? thank you all. thank you. >> senator kuntz. t ychanbi k follth heg yoond sste vanvo for civil rights and for your real leadership in this area for this legislation and for this hearing. in my own role prior to becoming a to cy ute, i rkar tupsi a a80rnic

demeonseha w had effective and strong outreach. not just traditional subject to harassment and communities like the africaamerican and lato mmiet p9/ nge e be trng oac lashitr im mmunity, given some incidents that occurred with our lg mmy ngeta ponganio ga ancobl i wd ta ofr ahiavby kiou ylesh in the poling community and for your service to the public. i appreciate your starting by ju helping me understand what's the impact on a police force? that practicesaciaprofin er'shertth cytrngrt or pofre ac? wh tmpon professionalism, promotional advancement and cooperation with communities? at'seen ucheon u cecaofes nu o hha sin ant i' iesin rns >>nk. in'stipaby . in trgat w id tab aen den ist ra pfilingsually has very low morale, because now you have ulcers inside the organization that are oosto th teagn itan iauont thts th cnity, i would also probably argue that the community is sufferingbecause now you have a practice in which is losing touch with the community, making them very ineffective. in today's society, makes it

much more expensive. causnowou hehest e g he co oga usopre sng mee re he urstou hlo morale issues which means you have increases in sick leave workers' complaims and pee wh yen i rafi. strty,u h mmy densosi gh as kw a county executive you cannot serve it effectively. always chle andrain th nt e'oge tr gr. rnd respect, i thinkbetter of being effective, from a chief' ece'rsiv i t mge picha lt l o en support, like i said, causes internal strife. it just is not an effective strategy. >> thank you. would you agree, iisss ci >>lu. eonenof b ge iy ayre in these perceptions in the community that the police are not responsive and that they're victimizing citizens andat e' sowanr gurc 'srealivro arifrhe management philosophy of the

organization. and the chief is right. it does result in low morale. but it also results in low morale not just because of you're going to have people in the agency thawoul dieeh prce thctt e' apriactaty fi wrear atoue esal nd it has low morale when the community that we serve then becomes, you know,omplning abusngroio orut ratof cyngu , o viizs se a protector. so -- and the chief is absolutely right. it srts th manem itrtth vto rsnd teveo alngseng o iid tthon hold accountable. as a captain in my agency, i liity geho leountlen ucemes prsilyd s u . thsoeohaai ret knweth setosoin g g g n erwh ve. juoio yand i love my city and it is a great city. please, feel free to visit any time. okay. but i'm ju goi to telly olopccabn en olemouilan 'secfoouw, we'te avec s syon' is. because we all know what bad behaviors when we see it, and if you challenge people and you ho them accountable, then there won'be a problem. e re iatic

jshowd cot tyf cek, anen cdot prte >> senator, if i may add one point. there's a phrase we have escially for chiefs that it calls for a moment of pause. anatpes a enoet typ trannfcet e lu td us, s haacpo kehae sitting there. if you look at our history, usually there's some type of incident. and it gets confusing, because quite ofteit may be a legal incident, it may be somethin theabyelult kesecauc onbu rctar a aeg. it refles the kind of, i think, one of the congress persons said earlier, enough is enough. so when agencies are blind to is or systematically eagin t,y'it oes ers aci kera mn n r t ak c ig ahen athe sergmoations and you start having race riots. because it's not the incident by itself as much as it is the buildup to that incident. the lack of acowledgent of e er be. ndief h a e er tanig haaiatia ofg adict' just those powder keg moments. it also the simmering distrust, the disconnect from the community yoseek to protecand to serve that can al hava timpon urecne yaby ffve po. atomngverd roheleel i wanted to move, if i could,

professor harris to a question about standards. if y lk at reasonae suicofndth cols atyla foen sanes anivl,opd prleseicve ar. ilaps e a fibltoa lr obpoiain are of reasonable suspicion. how you have seen that play t? what do you think is important in fighting that standard? and then i'm going to nt to vethilnd i gh nsa es haou anu thes, to u'bselgh puurge shi very important. the reasonable suspicion standard arises in terry versus oh thset ws liffs sep isenrereab ctedpi thobisd e n rt with profiling is that reasonable suspicion is a very low legal standard. it is lower than probable use. in s,ik pblus she mis reabusonbemy s. and you have a standard where you can use very little evidence to take significant police action. and where we see this showing ton oofg giou elein op f ait n rky myean it gexe,ause there is very significant amount of data on this. we often find that en though the standard is reasable spn,reha yt rde anmes in a co. ec rnasuio hea imtht

as boiler plate. so with that low a standar profiling and other ineffective apcho enem rat wee ki sstthr.er testinag t y ro, m t i racial profing can be a violation of civil rights, as i believe it is, under a whole line of ses, martinez,once, er treotes th'mil w personally, but that's a line of analysis, i think by the supreme court that has laid this out. why do we not see more rct onr al ofg heart jue? if w jfo u onfe hs'me do ie ben e aliccr ceities that, as captain le describes it, are accountable, are professional, and where at all levels are engaged in moving us forward wards a more just and effective policing community? wyookthyo thes, to z heu ar, teon stt, you see that we detail a number of theemine racial profiling cases. int,e heouby d is mibetrd wh isceleatis sel o k t deccd whhe case was decided. because you'll note that many, in many stces and the one

i'okat, re okatpa sal ar tben y pu obyol ofr hay t case of robert wilkins, and ultimaly when that case was decided by a court. d mainy p erpelyseou mmied liho rrco pte rn i nimor economic to retain private counsel, even when you've been wronged. urayy,y s induwhit u y si bsela the resources to take on every singlease. we take on cases where we think we have a -- an ability to have high impact, which means systemical at e hiest ve e erhereg les ndk ng untaoue ily po, wee una encrndl rourt arn cot eesnea give the individual who's often been aggrieved, even if they're willing to step forward, much comfort. think that's really at'st stake here. ine enhuds of thousands of new yorkers, let's say the 400,000-plus i cited haveeen ongfly pe tol tde u d 400 yos wennt yeopby pe fillivl uii t evat mr thha w bvet d n cius o sos. isone of the times when by the senate taking action and

putting in place a legal regime and being ableo st the type of rush to the courthouse steps e ote omd ciliiesee. >>atifaye argog tohe question you had about the lawsuits, or why people can't file the complaint is, in many cases, i think the bigger challenge is that it ma alola l . ths thgiio ic daolio cca i k win ofg leop tiununy k that the stop itself may not have legal cause. so we have a phrase in policing, give me a car, two minutes and a vehicle code and i'll find a reason to stop you. ttoy used acwiiebair u , ll t l rearopined e n et a we talked about a prext to other things. so it mes it vi s t pn coinr gto int d ard ndld or a cracked taillight, d it makes dfoth induashaued dotrlialo thha the 10,000th cracked windshield, 90% of them may be all of one group of color. >> i see that i am well past my time and i appreciate the concerns that have been raised by this conversaon, this hearing today, about the defitif alfili, t imanf g nalygein leatrese i at cmarbor urfta t ins rag at llond nwl crd ono gnanob anu muc >> thanks, senator kuntz.

following up on your question, i think one of the obstaes mr rorlyks upn re dngit thes o he o cethty oprin heole cause for the stop you run into a real obstacle. our staff did a little research. turns out this isn't the first time that congress has talked about this. arguing the diriti shou onlbehid baso oce icha utu renane seatstted ut e l ts o64 fe aent w tee s h discrimination based solely on race. senator clifford case of new jersey argued in opposition saying this amendment woul place upon persons attempting to ovviatio ati mr clth atwa ocl grasmahele mplyth d torrf in said limiting the civil rights act on discrimination based solely on race wouldnegate the entire purpose of what we're trying to do." so t cous s an w m i exelfft, c s,r plth mibera tigas e ony'eiulled over. what we found in illinois, incidentally, to go to my home state, consent searches by the illinois state police between 20d 20 hiicottsnyta re tur times more likely to be searched. african-american two to three times more likely to be subject to consent searches than whi motorists. however,hite motorists were

moikthisc tos 26reel anicmen ri avntndth vees so it made no sense from a law enforcement viewpoint to do this, and yet it is done. thyor hng i'rr ttear etk ther,nd'm y wee etk thbu to put it in historic perspective, back to our nation's very beginning, our founding fathers started wrestling with issues of race, gender and religion, and this ye pdel ai es wis oce suf er rio d is ongat this nation. there are moments of great leadership and there have been moments of ignominious contact. conduc fars unlis er ythouol w rct une pehoveerin r rn ant, udmes ons. t on ie hi job saying -- remembers what bill clinton once sa when he was being inrviewed before h became president. the anyssueoul comin? aiievomis r hed amao n nsnd egn. i thought that is a good standard, durbin. you saw it, too, in your hometown. hold to that standard, and i looked back and remember in timen the house estiofinr asthurou h a atlyatra ct esist heck inan aenncing of00 to 1.

years later i was given an opportunity in this committee to try to make that right, and init bto 1o 1. i dnet jon bee heur mpse'sn ce o l rr driut am ive. what happened as result of that bad vote? by black and white congressmen? lost trust in the african-american community. maeoseg ur sa'm g t t i ust g enat maharswar 0 s us ack caine violation. we lost their trust, officer gale. and i can see it when the judges came and talked to us about it. ovac to blsorun unbyng r th be t h acta isatnd o. whr e le o appointed officen our government, weerve. we serve the public. and that accountability has to be part of that service. this is not gog toolvehe e. thit iti ieormpteda bee onedry sof strdin establisd in states. more complicated today, as mr. clegg has said, because the war on terror raises legitimate concerns about the safety of our na aow wweto ret naalur thviinr c eser citn. i k alr im it's been a ver positive part of this nversati, whh we ed tenga ienth e'lo ies y'ar. orzas it sty. k nehednom resp

weglo t imy. and we'll put it in the record without objection. that's good. it will include the epcopa ch, nossti ch olithli itfomit ge gh. pa-acati ueadipfee l ang muslim advocates, naacp. national council, national immigration forum, rights working group sheikh coalition. hanri a heov cr thstenil maar tecke f wfodial atts pblmewien u itquon it doesn't happen very often, but if they do i hope you'll respond in a timely way. thoufurtr enth al mtns pace d atinisri anokwao inth of. veun >>inblovti >> [inaudible conversations]..

>> unext on book act wo theegu h wain ppoca po nalndn. tawi jon abhite release the tyranny of cliches. he argues many liberals clm to be non ideological warorng thr t l v ral s. el te s isat c w y today. you wrote liberal bashing the. that was your first book. this is your second book. why did yoris itfam w a ittrrs nel it took a lot of research and it took six you like howard hughes with x b on ee clld- is hw rbuwa vee fun. in this book i tried a little

hard to be entertaining for the read at least the readers o mtu aserting omys he enayg iein nes to eralas". as we define right wing in the anglo-american tradition of fascism wasn't right wing. weefine right wings two llf gh. liar farts frvalu. ron paul vision with pat robertson vision. family values, chrtian conservatism andll that stuff d othros ed osinndthlv ppittoot d aolics ditee cryso bys the further you move from the left the closer you get to bad hoobndis iso ysesdnion fci iam polal lis erveseep wig argument. and the other argument is 24 chaptersth ics, wit alng serious argument of front. >> cliches are lazy arguments that are sort of masquerads idgi >>t.

ge ol te -he tks about euphemism and lazy metaphors which is the same thing. he says they come like prefricad and e up dog r kior u uyntodea at cius i a sus and real concept, something nice and good that everyone should agree with andame into the movie ten nube tnd usu soe thin fou altis d eocancgo back over a century. >> you say this idea, students would come up to you doing a lecturand ey wld i sa wyout w feough s wherouantoay >> i speak on a lot of college campuses and one reason i wrote "lite fascism"s i was f up beca asc so vw titur wore t wno a of moxie goldbergs. so o thing i noticed is kids arno jt - re to vyalf at thhis eogy omet the only way to maintain prosperity is to have a strong national defense,

kids will say that unds l anolalte. d t w s t enevol a as if that is not an ideological statement. >> i never heard that phrase. >> weil ce k s t mou may disagree with me but i will defend to the death your right to say it lkovache tdmtr it hea st wpum oe um magazine. i don't elieve him. this is bravery on the cheap. a lot college campuses these dsreilng tno thnid es as aliagirrg bus aazi or whatever or dictator and the only reason they do that is it is not true. in countries wheree do have atthano ng jil anvi ct bseouilgo ae. inrie ve s we are not a totalitarian country. second of all, it is a way o nge em leof simsiersos ki t ot tru. is he going to take a bullet for

me of someone comes running in saying goldberg and -- k n d diddiny in td t. y oundike br matutliit my argument. same with guilty men go free and innocent go to jail. the principle behind that is one thatveye f rito lthe lin sieree fehecced haheeff ub tri genhe accused but you have to be beyond reasonable doubt when you convict somebody. i don't know anybody who disagrees with t principal. hooulyheinpl itn soteipo wobeowoto jaec wownd thnnle g jl or you have phrases like if it saves the life of one child isth nstiin pitbeprd ut sonof if ithd we ve to -- the speed limit has to be 5 miles an hour and guard rails have to be 100 feet tall beuse that is the only way to guarantee weillthe fe eo id. nayg cseat n'vechpe strs and polics is ridden with this stuff but the court fference between conservatives dbi a rtnsseibs t io to is,

ralahee n eoca eyimhey're pragmatists and only care what works. they think these ideological labels are what weird peo ers ly abgeghempta gs i k ottr erydeolic perspective including liberals. nothing wrong with having an ideological perspective but it is a matter common nse evhelsn feou t tnkerut thyoinouur bies. you try to own your biases. delight to work with my hands or am i a people rson or what i'd gates a onnvryhayo knboouf hat y liant w nstiveadmit they are ideological that seems -- their opponents as pro we can't think seriously about reality. of we can think more seriously abrey us wno at bs f y d k w asre tno yre thinking seriously? >> one thing we see in this campaign ithbids deenndennt anu ths am 'm p tof e . there is this bizarre thing that

many people in your profession, a lot of mainstam pocapos joli t believe themselves to the centris a ac pleo meor cr men tihadothit se aetutth any ath a pocsws copt pe ols d mriloeo in politics arehe idiots after the third presidential debate in late octerr whenever it is faus tas ci waven stg heto s,ter or chris wallace will go to this focus group and say what did you think and they will be like i just sh hite bo ucn tntesti i n'r h sak toab tnv i didn't get a full understanding what his position isn k-12 education. at thapoifuonno t ys a loer g thouenee ten yren idiot. >> your sense that they are gging for the cama. >> might be perfectly decent lethowved liut hot li susnd zep rl th is the second reason --

because they left the decision to the lt minuteerve stor vors. , tes le t tgh choice between republican and democrat in the general election, ones most confused about e difference between the two parts. e theoe w ulteecdleio caths hal maheinds. this approach to the power politics tends to corrupt how we think about politics generally. geal thi cava t esn itial tin stof onrehey s we ne d li me ts whatever. there's a coherent keynesian gument that this is what we need to do and build a lot of stuff oray pple thbeanitis petlco eemigome. here tht through internally consistent positions. the centrist potion moderate dienlorgpoon k tt a ienposi. ey isoavg an argument with it to build a bridge or not. the left says we need to build the bridge. the right says we don't need the bridge at all. thdifference splittersay wiuildrithoe

y ss cn. t inev ght idh virtue of simply being in the center is purely geographical metaphor. not a realplace. simpy virtue of callin emes sor dhe e ou 't tt. >> another -- as far as focus election year focus independents that a lot of focus and young pele also get a lot of ten. ve mro hes to ancs yte tousgegen cins t ve op yoin is a waste of time to focuso much on young people in terms of making aifferee aam g: an. maot oti , calcuon tamy iave nothing but contempt r these last-minute voters in october that dsn't mean i would advise republicans notoo to those lastine voters in tobe i a ss nc o o pitehao. sah . ere's this fetish of youth as virtuous and noble and why is based solely on the fact of the arthbi ahat ahet nt adon ooc. vave triohat is skeptical about youth. western civilization is made of

every generation by barbarians. well tm isoly ctprs he han coios ignorance, stupidity, absolute lack of personal responsibility. anyone whoas changed a diaper wiell nl gthon slindgnornd ckresitywe o oes yng in a culture that puts young people on pedicels. only the wise child -- imagine e peror h nclhes i s d t rdiorimd f o il. the lson would be how why is our kids the house to but rather parents of this kid tohe kle pain us o o ptiece er i hope mitt romney doesn't try it because it n am ons amney is such a stiff that tlihar rents sc i oplins gaechioung lee credly susceptible to this nonsense in

2008 because everyone w fed up with george bush barack obama waa chisc re r a ieriokif mpn. orbaheatou s r n t emmef g le rossoi forward a lile nerdyetnld lp h dsis st democrats argue that about their party. that they have the big 10 party and republicans later, olde lkutat u nty its a fant >>stvey setimes a strength and sometimes isn't a strength. diversified stock portfolio is stronger. americans -- theact thate --reon ve eg iic rrtsre simply better at incorporating people of different cultures into our et myblitveysit spose ben le er k dsis k anther a ieresting social science data on it. robert putnam who i quoten the book o of al--iost nginuran

diverse communities become weaker. it by weaker union less volunteerism and socia inractn,s cmit to co pct led un dan h n r sn other comes into their community. i am very pro legal immigration and think we could have more immiatanl nesa aguor spicliliut is uativsi otriisehd aeplacement for an argument rather than making an argument. one place where i have a problem with it ion wh--d he anorthveit igndowt falyaid it big affirmative-action case for the supreme court that diversity is portt shaspea ic fei lage ro wths e argument about affirmative action was as lbj said it is unir and unjust to taka manning ange his entire life thetake oth ai etope eqlyir bee heac oslery and jim crow we make a special effort toward the african-american pulation.

that is a morally serious argument rrgen avsameho iended wo ond oth rarment. because of the potency of their argument has faded, theeft has run thef vey me sy diit g se vicoempesou they may be diverse as far as numbers on the page, you have black kids in the cafeteria eating with black kidand int heck lt sested hiics hnids aniidteids ani kwiaid bume of them moving around. the problem with the diversity argument is it is a uen lsemper adstrs buc whoto ayme ofid ws underprivilege or who gets a special pass at this or should not get a special pass that and erakinan ths pbl >>t:u unclass? more than raise? >> guest: sort of bizarre a eeheay haeepog african

students from africa to meet their racial numbers when the pointasupsedng afn-icits t gieoro t oth de atpafheueio what is the point of doing this? i personally don'telieve the ucational value of th diit a st. inere a le- bcktus mous get a good education. i think some of the greatest writers of the african-american exrience were partf the harlenaiannld r k pele if y lk arus p east 2,000ears diversity wasn't the essential parof their education. iism thlitheoe ino dhaar tu tg ccis and how are we accomplishing it. we might disagree on what the idl ciar eowg urds up se achi cot leto inng for us don't seem to be that persuasive. the chapter in question is sort of a fun chapterim at arrndtibo

thad tecwith enun rbstan t highlight of my career. publiclyanceled his subscription to the l.a. times when they picked me up as a cois marhare good. shea talked-about diversity makes a stronger. e says it itehat ey aerefwi mnanepd w . ecclwhoud le that what she means by diversity is agree entirely with her and y find- this i tro gu. heerokke ari. ice daord sa way. left of center, very rich lawyers and i personally think -- i like a dferent kind o diit i e ivty tal erinut to d th der atonas a big federal list. i want to push things to the lowestevel possible. have a different perspective civil-rights and all that but beyond that one lin vrve solyseivway. in san francisco they want to put whatever floats your boat into the state constitution that is fine with me.

make it more interting country toveos os tk out y ia do she dfentid oyli with their different arguments? sophia elson are doing -- she believes inhe bible and itl iaimui isbo rht slich thinking. i was on the san francisco -- i am there all the time. a ha ty ty thotngutfee ret was professional. [talking over each other] >> guest: thcaer's keep calling and cnfirming poi tinman th bt ey th ieoic. y hinkonrvat idgi ony eda ld almost hr his ponytail over the phone. youth conservatives a all e lsnddend f i t nkibal ththay wet athe aly. n're yant impose your views on us. this impose thing ally bothers me and youear all the time. ervavein i eiea owh mag in t brega se s cs agnd vways been maybe it is inevitable and if it

is worse things have happened to the republic but at the sa as e vef nstis eo w k avtrior re aocinns r asndre l kedndt we no le to access we should be very humble about all that. i do not think it is a ridiculousigot posio y iaet a a n ao t inkt cysaeoploue abo hoev tan boides have merit to them. this imposing thing drive me crazy. e deniti orr ndon h y th ani aan d anor,0 s heor a while. the idea that people of the same sex can mary has beeou i oufes noen r li enasth pchtr mmy l ided homosexuality to be a mental defect. we have come a long way. its t l tt t ses ni o rr otr is is a microcosm of more basic -- the left has been from the beginng the aggressors in cue aom

wgh e intes adlilse he vightre he 1960s. they were on the right side. and conservatives were on the wrong side. once you admit that you can have a caveat about gng too far or toiasut of dheht wron gh 'tet m frothe right for saying it. you can't on the one hand claim creditor men's ffge a y ts c rs l e gsndt se caiouw ervee agsosin ctu w the self annointed forces of change and progress and the people who want to move forward as barack oba likes to say. the people areing im t iaset t f rianca chiaorpl who wan to keep vmi all male, these are thvictims and the culture r. tdehasohow nd ditof rr a hbed r ahouseasomow an imposition strikes me as ludicrous. the other side is trying to impose things but the way the press covers it and the way people talk about it and with e talk about it aay ouw ris ntho ppliv leheineaty t l istiges things and pushing these arguments and trying to change the country and

barack obamaays he was tfuamllanme ic u t yoan tatrorer an tam s tt thhedet ting to impose its ideas. >> you have a frid--pretty harsh review ithe new york mes book review. e kln. e a y d't acowe rig ipt hee clches. another argument is that you sort of height cliches that people d't even say. that areot rllyg a riarnt g: oe icm ve ter. sulhaee i am not talking about phrases or english usage. the worcliche conjures this. aamngerro ofra wahpeople fallabt thrl he way we talk about -- that is nonsense. in drait

constitutional bill of rights -- 59% control 49% of the people. ire matais titndua ri thn is aero american political tradition stands up to the mob and says you are not going to hank this man today. e hiicay thng t vue of it a tgr li tesdeba tiyot impression it is better to be wrong in a big group than right alone. thitmshat p ougl undll t stybat p uloh in iishe mistreating. in terms of the fact republicans and conservatives use cliches too absolutelyru theyfee nstiarnebo erhereinom erves the government isn't the problem -- isn't the solution. it is the problem. the government that governs least governs best. that is smentf pnc thonatisnip d ier i om esmebsel nstisall into the marketing generation stuff that the falls all politics. the ufoundde tad th

ma iceorolit tavt fe o. 'tarticularly like it but it is funny in the joe klein review which is ain gt rdheays - covas reic vesectoondar ua asell,oldberg does admit this. so what is the point of saying this if i admit it. it is onage 9 of the book i say conseat ts to dfee yer nstiarmifr thncth es d is the idea that liberals i simply members of the reality based community. that they don't have an agenda. at they only want to do what works. idobthy bere he iured rly i imweaywhwe nes ewecra of independence from ideology, bigotry, prejudice and small mied. do iol b er rtarine le reinis o louty r ope' isthrmulation you get over and over again that conservative ideology and liberals don't. i try to trace the intellectual orngk m as aat beo d edbar chbleress e me a moemca no labels which i despise.

>> host: why do you despise it? no labels in someayis tt redaman ts toi ey frd candidate. >> guest: this cult of the center. the whole thing -- bank as the non his high chair the last coleye isa w p e llalant us saler a alat ri fiitme we have problems with special interests and all of that. the no labels ing is one of the trojan horses bankrolled pbyha ombe w isy u tou dot gnhelde fatiesntndsn th fth having a 5 foot nothing liberal obnoxious jewish guy who is may of the most obnoxious city in americ n nat plrmrurl cagn f pside. por things like note labels which he kind of admits. the ideas a very old one. i have a quote from lbj where he play t i't bie i la. yt is paaniddse idgidiences and to the hard work the american people sent us here to do? i have heard hillary clinn and al gore von ts and baba thob--re l prle. ou'telies avprm bau lels

are another word for words and words are important. words convey good and evil a mpid ami lionthrbn va uenyreorn d wds aren't important is basically repudiation of thousands of years of civilization but beyond ahaereard wagtols r d ybsaeeo t be tselals and lol dethefor i am going to abandon my principles and agree wh you. people only play this game when they want you to shut up andet thirgr thw lsng as sa t d oou idgi arincipled objections to what i want to do and get with my program. it ifax so much of our disi i d eraveme wiomy ndstds e s ngmd knwhhehis.ths pionrnalism is the best form of journalism in america. no offense. just that a good, long form as tewketh blr naon oreey anda diont s a suained argument for something is so much more valuable to me than an allegedly objective

oryt ea tias e -erorsthom ishe s vie c room or the rules of procedure. we know the prosecutor wants to get a conviction d a defse to ias w theof od t e trt ruof ence. if you don't deal with the other side's best argument and only his worst you are going t le anat ef t veialanswh evney autn peanedort t ec more likely to yield a true results than a eseraitrm prs idn. ift tthreo re wn th washinon post thought the story from 52 years ago as a front-page story. >> host: very wellritt st g: reg y butopit u wm inhis on the front page and the no labels thing is anher way to flynderhe lsagasle. hee ewilgi onam hmas f fmyum aut the center and says goldberg doesn't

understand the real negotiations inin o she ovidjenfo coffosoal setyck aert wt iaonsre t real governance is about. and i say exactly. another example of someone proving the point of mbo. joe'sle owhe aln eaco whses leedon thbamcho ea the checks of an entitlement spending as over a fiscal cliff. if i say maybe we shouldcome up with a reforwh rathn opve tema-b sm whpeore one thlvr voucher medicare or these kinds of things nuts and extremists. if i am wling to cdell hets tth atuoent ra tahminhi and the only reasonable arguments is how much bigger the check ould get than i am a serious of all inouthe alilof rn. lee e ke m e obe i tag t. aro ith us q a the idea that liberals always need to be driving the ship of state and e inner shot ofroes stisevib efthrireic covas thwh keome send mpse m

peace with the status quo and th establishment and enter into reasonable negotiations about whether or not the check should get thisuch bigger ts brndec t >>t: yt ba isd and raise her a visit to the liberal and joe klein who uses cliches you feel e lazy. who would be the worstffde gh kia g: cle ki n'o on ink the ones that bother me maybe aren't the examples a liberal woulde looking for. th os atot t cof budmtrn. h cpana nsvatism. as i like to joke i am an old guy, i like my conservatism more sghty bl womssna cova - h trgt tis y asto win. a new sort of repubican. >> guest: there's aeally bad tecyot thouefdole rianod wnd ao made great politics. andrew sullivan made a point out gay marriage that was a winner that would get

republicans -y ve. ir mliel 02lde t nd il t place. people think that because they think the policy is a great idea great politic and i don't inatit be ce tot l asatnstiay ven ha this argument with the national review a lot. look at the demographics and what is going on in politics you need someone to read b cova. petlligu i wig dete. ghomne inmsa bl a greaofde cli himself a conservative is i would rather move the country to a place where even the republican party has to move toy potith haonat tf prpasis a thlilt s e blcanpay. ro wcosite conservatism is the way it was formulated president bush was an honorabl and decma and eslyntin nsti i aa siat erve chr k tl any other kind of person. im a different kind of june. i am a compassionate june. i'm a different kind of afn-american. a asat caer. ifntd atc. s aso to the -- agnst your own base to present yourself was really

bad. also my problem with asatnstiou ndthitth- noe dt g ndl chrir t nfio teaf a person's soul is directly correlated to the support for bloatedd bigome ra thw dl,reocty ity esident bush on labor day of 2003 somebody hurts the government has to move. barack obama said not long ago if one american has a problem we lle pr thardispoti to. ty e ry s elot mfr republicans have to do with -- part of the reason for the book. i am tryingo talk to conservatives. i n't ve lot os abowany ler b rsavi sa tooi'mg to inform my own readers, my own side as it were that these cliches, theses of seeing thd axall. ou'nowhatou hiy ouillo pe wchouto wrealngbohe olhu oh we are talking about fascism. if you don't know the alternative story or the other side of the story will go with a ielow iv c bpe wiat

tecy conservatives to still use nazism a fascism as a right wing phenomenon, i made a chink in therm othat wi mok dtid of ita se a tidirsadge th ideisf armed my own side with ways to fortified themselves against giving to e aum t lef usey ewhin cue. thoout reic vsudecrat laltanstan literature and all the rest. these cliches are everywhe. >>t:t etr o ine civ or csscoti >> probably a compassiona conservative. even -- whatve erve i d re esti- osn sp - >> guest: technically the language is the problem. mittomney speaks conservatism like a second langge. dot ion tnkis osib o t but is form of political experience in massachusetts he didn't run as a conservative in massachusetts and doesn't kn how ttalk this s

n'inerimfor hi g civ - learn how to speak this stuff. part of his problem from the beginning has been what call sec/inutnt prm. se aator fitiou tnkt fake. that is actually -- it is actually met romney. he looks like the piture that comewithhe am honit ti thisend snd l t cos across as animatronics. sort of like the one that al gore d. d nid ca t d me gs on tld caud. crlyff o sudden. i don't think -- mitt romney has to be careful about campaigning as anything other than what he a tyfff tery de admpss g co athro the right of center. and trying to be the next reagan is bad e ngt dvemeuts t bl sge ct whhuch gon camera he is outged. he doesn't say i want to

communicate that i am outraged. yoon gem lng to p werno ty laeca gng ton puanboled wier ro rn f that is what you want me to be. another example -- i am aig fan of t firre b t ave pl w geh. h w presi and that jackass david duke won some primary and everyone anhe ge bgi t pss er w hay - inom n- i want to appear as if i am distancing myself. more show, less ll. lltoe e roeyeo t chke >>t: monon re. he is a favorite of mitt romney and santorum. thlwnaro rn. e anofse bengarrdou he g: in i est a ryto u hikethis. reagan has become this-board saints oragical tem people int. amll sa rn fo tat

investing this or that. it is all dayhistoricay there's hypocrisy on both s. evneyssees nsti a spostic's hyis bsi evnelays these games. conservatives are supposedahistorically there's hypocrisy on both sides. everyone plays these games. conservatives are supposed to be held to positions reagan took in different -eyei rea ifthpoti jook onitaiax t fdr ok on war or in turning the japanese or the supreme court for free speech oron't get me started on woodrow wi whar? het aha g. orttan i teinenngp rnelve important part is remembering the coex er cinlito waopal aut he whun hi rme hto reagan. he made compromises where he could but that doesn't mean he was just a pragmatist. core ideological conviction but dealing with a country w mlil bth wayioceerf it acaliicto e t te ou dgm uthathe politics work rather than where he brought politics to seems

misguided. >> host:alk out ur wti prce yoviy t th ti rw. lee. do pogr ok lihi name dropped everyone. >> guest: the point of this book is there's a l of pop culture fen pat isherin -- r ngeay yoereaun than 40 ther picex ditp cue. in neecey mele kg jesle. today it is star trek or whatever. part of it is ion want e hiod. en l ochg ndomngit i am basically a geek. i spend my childhood reading c s watching tv and rstaing ptt g inic a tihirynd mdad n llal w o two hobbies and one was moving from one end of the uch to another to read it different newspaper going on long walks withisonal aut tele ms. rt of it is -- unlike mm-hmm

-- uike "little fascism" -- "liberal bashing" i want to write in my n boys. i lot -- i g a l o itm mfa snhip ury itryyst nd the subject matter. n't do--the funny thing about the holocaust --mypss nneyoorofs burger types have to have six pencil line up the right way. one great thing about being in the early days of the internet was lrn te ry bew ho agedr teal. e a bng at the ground floor of the web was i learned how to write fast leino soilke apwiendhe icpps an ok tig othba orto one my favotes e ba aar an ctng >> host: as bad for u.s. cigarettes? >> guest: they are not as bad r ucire. nddo nou n'hale cigar's.

[taing over each other] >> guest: things to look for. i got a leor thldis ww awi the problem if you spend your life smoking cigarettes and switch to cigar's you start inhaling the c'shi idi t tucat i a t ar aisnt o ed out on this stuff. i wrote liberal fascism bant thomhingke >> host: tell me about your brother who passed away before you began this bk or as you were ginning. >> guest: myshmy onibs dien 11 thouright. couldn't be 2010. he had some demons and all that but seems be getting his ge aikyb -ha t thelhe waanat w a wonderful brilliant guy always much smarter than i was. he fell down flight oai

s isra wn goe wser w cay brain dead in hospital. a really long flight. the funeral -- i don think anybodwho aentheal ew ayo be-tceknbot evt cld wrweroan ias ono had to pull the plug when my brother and my brother's if -th hoaltad. d ntolln itwas a very traumatic time. my dad died six years ago so it was just myom and i. one ofhe this aw s t hafaesrealhee. that is b s. what i have been havg a hard timengitisry lys uittl cian ahey le allei th a oeles thndn u lose a brother all of a sudden half of the accumulated nowledge of your entire life is gone thasn it. i wrfriendsho lpe oumes t ots nice but not the consolation one ones.

it has been very hard on my moth. can'image atprg. osidavefectn uritd vw? ue n alad complicated you about drug legalization and all of that kind of thing. has changed my life in profound ways aboutow i thi a mi velws be a osivmiuy n doem you what is important. to a certain extent it didn't inrfere with writi t bk t groto wng e tpheite use hpe t seth it was an outlet to let loose and think about something else. isnef ha s lfe. ily on er dlse gs tu ine w o ot >> what is next for you in terms of writing project? >> i don't know. the next book i don't want rdero n ti ll ioue dohi - notho rtutav de some editorial stuff. i would like to do gonzo fun thing where i go out ithe worldndromng reg. otthha haot

mnwre bloging in national review. >> host: annoyance is your n g: g g s mnwakeli t olilk? wim lesaid it will be easy. at least we to thing the week will really annoy you. in the oe ink t mon of e gstea yot uge d. semeg v -- i am not see everything has to the animus or ill will or anything like that. but if somethinti o knhaou wt if a jn meg ughe a