twiryonooe nu eeuc tremendously. and it's caused problems in california, throughout the country, ever sne. fo ggsi evhiwhre ic dca h deteriorated, k-12, universities, community colleges. ..

afutidon n' re r txe for business, california, other states that went this route would still have money to finance the public serviceat alaseodpe n ucna sce s forth, they need police and fire protection. and right now the state because t l ctr anceyvifohe al ow,or mle s le bg cut back, u know, police and fire are being cut back. and all of it because a v neararxli ginsies.

yohi di ai seish tnc tax. yes, you know, the middle class folks benefited from income tax cuts. but by far the largematy rtarf ppiga xuc riees t oisoe t 1%, but half of, you know, a tenth thfoou ll'td very, very, ry need it because they do have the incomes to pay, it's like poor people, elderly, theyon't have paeo h t ieto buaull efnt to those folks, government was starved. and necessary services, federal

gornmentnotateo evyo ime pio heyo kra knat oerou many, many teachers just laid off, you know, no thought of them ever getting a job again. ta. the's kids th nto be e y t ere. mlela t ln iesal i v vmpte because you don't see, you know, costs of education, you know, loans toet education. all these things, youw, po, real rt li.a sar o caoundlt esinre vy expensive, but they're very basic to what we thinkof the middle class standard of living is. to wittsuow osan tea l a ntstrdfet' g

ac i of these issues to makeure on health care, to make sure on education, to make sure on housi, make re intest r ans d sfortt ar ak tos bo.,e fng there's more and more polarization. and, unfortunately, there's policies that are put in place by the 1atndnf is pizn. thth mlecl s fe t osi g h ry r itself up through policy so it isn't cast aside. californns waited for the su haeye ta mpse y kst lesh is with all its problems of campaign financing, revolving door and whatever.

you can't accept th poca adipit i 'sdep th u'eat t ur 9%dep, aha g ooery, very different from the leadership that's in government right now. for more informaonon ok rt tto eritsod to c-span.org/localcontent. >> from full circle bookstorein jolindupoveat tomnah c l, 1995. that attack, executed by timothy mcveigh and terry nichols, lled 168 people. asance oogrlh te nolnd 1e wh

interviews with individuals ranging from the prosecution and defense teams to members of the radical righ and law enforcement officials. gemeorinu rcoores eng o ec tct that we have such great support. we are the oldest and largest independentbookstor in oklahoma cy,nd it means greadealo bee tore thre gel haoumu la k yro tonight. this is a very somber subject. normally, when you do book tour youo tofe cotithhel haut thte ye te t. cenlt t tl you your own story of what happened in this city 17 years ago because i'm sure you know it much better an i ever will. evodutooyh ico

profoundly the bombing touched everybody here. it's a relatively small place. i've never met anybo from inepeal wbyth ag e t iam ioko mbf t tiof t ct eiathhildren who died in the daycare center, and i thought, you know, i'm a britisforeign correspondent, i've been to a lot of not tely a ice wo t istth sint d hngke t ntn t mia and saw the fence of the dead children and the teddy bears, and it just got to me in a way sa ctindha talhith me now. s r e ceof seinisk, ed e werde te of vietnam and other

conflicts, and they said themselves this is major brown here forwho wawith the shiff' deptmenb squad hene o t pe hde s ain t d in t'set iqbo tecla en thatook place and the cossally unpected, undeserved aspect of the fact that it happened here, in okhoma city. sohat' yw,ant coo tbji tutt thitnd i cin not here to tell you anything you don't already know. but i do think there is an aspect to what's happened and the way it's been told and retold over the years t has ttenos d i fmely tot. tlko t because i think this city was let down fundamentally in a number of ways both before the bombing and then afterwards as well. the srkest ntra, pp iwi 91 w

d atrytind lltetoti mmy madoss for congressional hearings, obviously, you know, there was a huge amount of political actity around the cam at hpene en gitobjss b i kpl to a large extent grieved in silence. i don't think congress was necessarily paying attention it should have done. there were onor two aboive di o.so arhegs t d yaenly figt theis it's ant the guilt or -- it's about thguilt or innocence of the defendant or defendants, it's not really aboutettg to the bottom of everything. m v fna ar t sof avblndur w ineoostt access to the full archive of all the materials the governmen

handed over to the defense teams thtaal a yaldtrials; mcigh' te was instead of having guesses and questions and the sense that something was not quite right, there was a unique, really, opportunity to lookecy whasthateoven b onvga, inathdsid ow wueions could one legitimately ask as a result of that. the other aspect of the project which is a blessing for me as a goholdfllsasha foioho t caeowhensy ves circle, in that radical anti-government movement. inveigats who looked at the crime right from the very fel stge lal,tand rmarshess i

in, serse felas y surprise and amazement almost everybody was willing to talk. they were all willing to talk on the record, and a lot of them were veryrustrated andso ca pryutth in tteut adater t a sspoitar fohebind g tomatic way through to mc-- all the way blue to mcveigh's execution several years later. so what do mea en isa la cwaet d arore in thccdha i retrospect seemed very troubling. the way the murrah building was built he '0s, ere s ci mtoim selln waathe rela ined eye lec r. there's a number of things you can do to make buildings much stronger like having coils in

reba there was a fematuon thopho bt sd il hpengh o rahe bt,y could have raised the building to the level that would have thophodiig hofiathqu th cthi d meli he me. another failure is that in the course of my research i found out that the ma in charge of protecting the building, tom nt, whwas e head of t deotveend doro han er eraba of security, and they were coerned for a number of reasons, because it was their job to worry about this kindf thin andhere '9 a whe t tiert me cl w eti,

aoni, they made it clear that anybody who worked for the federal government was a target. in response tha hnd ne tve4-cuh arvewhn' t heunghe edwout t ceily of the outside of the building to vehicles, they also were veryoncerned that the vid cameras erected on t foeaanhnt tof thelder adston department, they asked to make these changes, and the answer was, no. oklahoma city s not considered a place that was er ing was thap, t hetd ith thhebi oha infeoy whole and really get to the core of what i'm writing about in the book is that after waco, after awesong feralgenas an

fwees tgs a ngt e a maat. kof iss mystery to the people who track groups like the order and the covenant and the arm of the lord in the asinatnsoms.mmitted th rca anti-government movement. they were very concerned in particular about a community in eastern oklahoma which we' talk aut me in attle b intec sofhe bao ace itg foios ti om out that other dangerous criminals who were prosecuted for other crimes were either living there or passing through. much,pp ihenu 9 teowher suth inayyo wegn.t as

not only were they ignored, b the different federal agencies that had little pieces of formation reot pooling that information, they weren't sharing it. wh they got edence o tharoi o ea gohth ateyff a ng alnk something needs to be done here, they took the opposite tack. why did they do that? the fbi h been raid f many years being ooacte rmgointe tsha renearre inig-grin ernsse t w a possibility of fure crimes. the fbi at the time was under attorney general's guidelines noto dhat. ofespelythre er cote en of activity. congress h raked them over the coals. they also in the wake of a lot of radal activity in the 1990s put tother sedition

thuns ord tin thre -eoty movement the neonatty movement in fort smith, arkansas, and things went very wrong. hif,ye -e the . ryseth wll it uc,e maur o them had read anything about the trial, and two of the members of the jury fe in love with two of e fendants, one on tfetslly got mared to th0 bhemefo ellison. everybody suspected rightly he was only in it to reduce his jail sentence. upshot was everybody was quitd. th f ist ttf frhe ralri t cratd,d n going to look for links to the

broader movement, and that's exactly what happened when the bomb went off in oklahoma ty. thtf, mwhn'e h--oor ne gli the a eate atf was primarily responsible for the disasters at ruby ridge in idaho in 1992, and there was one botched siegehereeo ed whalso ended in the deaths of dozens of people. so they were running scared, essentially. there was a new reblican majority inongress led by newt ngh at ush fo tt h wng abh agency completely. so they were very scared of putting a foot wrong. as it so happened, they were looking at a manfrom tulsa w waactive inth kn, darpanos

rn, a cct ouhelddey echeeenvdin a lot of criminal activity. so they put an undercover informant on to him, an attractive youn wom'd ohe rshe tiy, sty q o shoulder. and she spent a long time there in the fall of '94 and started hearingeople talking openly about war aitthe gorn, sin a wh t'spoe this? what they should have done is go to the fbi and say you should know abouthis. weee o op stiod t prlyth ur d id bhe man who was the head of the atf at the time on the record, he said,

you know, if we'd kept an informed operatioup the tove ingen a o ales alarming things from the informant, and they decided if we keep hearing these things, we're going to have to take action because thi imoren can poss ie. ha w g to i e t rm atanpe est d 'st id easenf on in march of '95, just a few weeks before the bombing, and then after the bomb weff the was colctenof s opndhers t ey das riv h hre bg t obe a an informant. a lot pple had i tw ehe shrsasel ct

eiavninan she was told this if she went back, her le would be in danger, so she didn't. what was really shocking was, you know, from the pointof vi hebi dhe aki coneouis le unohelyec eln, they'd start interviewing people. and they never did. in the meantime, all kinds of her in wgoine oomty w,ai i kd it aea ssce thhe was huge bureaucratic war going on within the fbi itself. louis freeh, the director at the time, was tempng to remve evy levihiein coyan ac t h pe. on t pleo ad si omoee w risk who was the special agent in charge, a candidate to become the director of the fbi

at thesame uieh s hhi a insetyutim ns ottic i charge of the bombing investigation, he puts in somebody over his head. he brings in weon kennedy, and what the imdiat effect of ist t okma comwher em mped, very competent to tackle this terrible tragedy, felt an instinctive allegiance to ricks, t to kennedy. meanwhile, kennedy was the a sock qurs ateartthe ovhe p tam asle peonte twoepen 24 hours a day to keep an eye on what was going on. so there was tremendous confusion in the first f day. grle, e sished ta lotf ryndut pck

ultimately very successful attempt to track mcveigh. they found, the feds found him within 48 hours. he was in custody, as i'm sure you alow, in a county jail heeeller ape gh plm he th goto hijust in time before he was about to be released on bond for his traffic offenses and carryi a concealed weapon. anthey aso,hh igap izat ofthll ypa whasnfnan t scramble of those first few hour is the is that everything that the task force here in oklahoma city knew was being transmitt by thetf toll its fie fiar tnt yde hed tel lrshe m, sunosb y a nichols gotnto the radio. both nichols' brothers heard this on the rdio, and they immediel took esive tion

wet g ege hndh bee er tib ra anxutha t also from an investigation point of view, it meant any possibility of putting them under surveillance, see who they were talking t seehat e mitouer tn eadas . haed ash unlif potentially getting to the bottom of what had ppened in the bombing. over the next month or so there was a tremendous attempt to look th bngaybe knashn doe 1 and john doe 2. doe 1 was assumed, i think hastil to be mcveig and for mth t ld thve sctrr nichols' 12-year-old kid for a

while because he was a big kid. for a few days, that was their conviction. they looked at other people as co't fure t wsely they hne ccts, teouothme th ry msoio at employees at the body shop had muddled up what had happened o a monday with what had happened on a tuday. knngo ierse grous whh, y its veoneny o pnghaue tre wh t wa number number of other people who had come to light as potential suspects, and one by the one the andhe jceart citoelhe ple n uerng go vokerng . and that happened with five or six different people. and so they, the potential for pursuing them as suspects closed do and as i say, the interest in thosiopaulelw

s oratyin e vestigation might not lead to useful leads, but would only give ammunition to the defense teams at triawho coul en it arge, w? yore sgeiwa t mahe j aayt. e der t there.l so there was a conscious closing down of the investigation, and it wasn't something that was decided monolithically. justo gi one examp o mar disteutthyo finvga fhebi he eye y they would have worked 24 hours a day for as long as it took to get to the bottom of the mystery. hoatn' pss.e you o an iea o rooc w ye innsuo a opdi u see something in the bombing?

the feds had a pretty good idea the bombas mixed, and what they f out w lf opadenryr tk t ohethwher a mcveigh were building the bomb, buthey'd seen it for weeks before, and it couldn't have beenhe same de theamme, ers al of sderrut ln jioy e ve stayed before the bombing. and rob ricks among fth s c t t, was only giving ammunition to the defense, and sure enough all mention of the second ryder truck fell away to the point incee h i nrt eenne

t a to t gs denounce the things that were missed, but also try and account for it. because it's a very complicated mechanism. you've got, you knowyou' got veat tos, et ireof ernc l f ngan st w lends,nt people to say this is a victory for the fbi, you've got the atf prosutor t drets le, to m qe flyis weender instructions to get mcveigh convicted, the death penalty. and i thinkhat often happens not only in the unitedstat, whoue mrbl it yodp ginsh omiv station. there's a sense, you know, we want to get to the end. we want to be able to say we've done our part.

mcveigh was the one they had evhin .oc theney anotwanic i think oklahomans were let done -- down whater y t ohe trial. omndi' cin re schout coseo applaud the fact that nichs did not. that's not something i feel is my place to tell you how to feel. but what i do feel as a searer ame w re itio ttfinndend e t iat opuntok he rn'sdein w that i had an opportunity to with my co-author and really ask hard questions, do they really know whathey sayhey ow re tse wne'atts bee ebiouve coit ivi

wise pd selectively, are there indications elsewhere in the evidence -- which there are -- that a number of people in the racal far right h knowdg t bin thpl fgo to ehoeaid log hede against the defendant and asking those hard questions, and michael tiger and ron woods managed reed dst tnt gsweotte a vent s, th maurr charges on which he stood trial. he was, he was eventually convicted of involuntar manslaughter and conspiracy and t life stead ofe deh nalt t, o iftlom rsiv01ir evhiha generated has given a tremendou amount of material to researchers and the historians of the future to understand more of what

haed the vefeea th jeay wn hene rtar dnriow t evidence. i think there were places where he could have really shown the government up. looking through the trial transcript, there are two ings th tert pd. mbneow mig chbua b in suer o 1994 they were messing around not too successfully with pipe bombsn. tll a ey oritalers. rdei, this experiment was a success. according to terry nichols who corresponded extensively with us, it was a flu and we just don't kwow the omatr he ll4 ele

stating -- devastating success. and i think the defense team could have put them on the spot on that. anotr thing they never proved waat mcigh wasne th 1.tr oil n'knf dr dnbuinri reoue dy shop, they couldn't match the signature on the rental form to his signate, there was the problem of john doe 1 and beuse there were fair dept g b plsa a me was ad t ur inches shorter than mcveigh, was pock-marked and one or two other physical dissimilarities which rais e question at least could it beenomeone se eree pemt gomead sng whhe ctn a surveillance camera to the body shop and have the rental agreement printed out at 4:19. d it was quite a distance aw. thrshoowp reat day.

eru dccng tns ond o that raised, i think, legitimate questions about the strength of the government's case. there was also most spectacularly the cthat ofm sim wnof theombi abou onel w o vehicles, not a single person said what mcveigh said, which is that he was on his own. he parked theruck, put in ear noinfemaed thexion fol these reasons, i think many tricks with missed by -- were missed by the defense te, d i think the were poittothd los o we lo aucmo tug inme of these other

leads into the far right could have been looked at much more thoroughly. and it obviously mas to okhomaitec t i yoto ref unhyes ern cxtofod cciothpi t cotry safe, with meland security, with the threat from al-qaeda, from others. i think it matters, first of all, because as ientioned a maro e hess th wre tif 9 itela rctppatth threat adequately, not sharing information. and also looking now think that the are legitimate reasons to be very concerned thatheeaom tat maoun hadbw experience in iran and afghanistan and got military training. many of themre traumatized, they come back in the huneds of thodsa dss yono tasjo o

te vonle wie a small minority that will be attracted by extreme ideologies, will be interested in using what they learned i the military in order to tur ainsth rnd, up ie er ca gr neo-nazi groups, groups affiliated with exemist religions much as was the case in the early to mid990s. the gpsny onriameran yaveoyi tun,ut you also have a situation ere despite the ho lacuce of the homelandhe

committee is very concerned about this. they feel other islamist threats other than al-qaeda are being garded, and thel that t doiceasalot th lfhe itual knowledge of how to handle potential eruptions of crises has go away. the people w uderstood that waco was a disasterndho a w yes rnheta byed lnfme t tteyerdho g ie to an end peacefully, all the people involvedn that are no longer involved in federal law enforcement. untohetutharrieho thela werarrth ple

maf them havegone into retirement. i'm not here to tell you the fbi doesn't know what it's doing becae it's not an agency that is very forthmihts lema tiayt t lnsatt wrong been articulated, have they been learned, have the knock-on effects on 9/11 been fully appreciated, andre we wretoe, k re at gathering has been lifted. there are, obviously, potential abuses involved in lifting it which is why they were imposed in the firs place. wego nvgaonsa . at g tharth tgst log the ability to assess threats. the fbi and atf still hate each

relyth sal vo lks tex ahe iuys i talked to were fuming, there was literally smoke coming out of their ears, an an agcies bave isay anwodoue ath he odet in atyou know, indendently of the politics of the second amendment -- and i don't want to get into thatarcularly -- it has to be a problem that anyone whs arilen h en ice,arre anst ierouie dy firepower. there's a tremendous amount that you can access legally, bu there's also a tremendous amount that you can access with relative ease that is illegaln tes loer. witingal--

sending alarm bells, and this is something that i think should be a concern for everybody. so ihave gone on for quit loime. umuni d l owrxen t yohee ct that somebody comes from outside of oklahoma and starts talking about this is something that upsets you, it's something you welcome, i don't know. i would love t just ve a i' ari oou as q&a. teha th foioys inr igan w love to hear what you have to say. so, um, i will do the moderating as i'm thenly one up here, and i' t on call o everybody onceefor iveeo c ck aon . siw a y f. oof t ps he wod you've been, what really caught your attention on oklahoma city? you've been all over t world, you've seen someretty bad

bo o tnct a r ps? , alte f the first time i came here which was in 2001. i was working for a bitish newspaper called "the independent," they wanted me to iniciof mghabo thbog ut rlywy le t . haisuedea as everybody else did that two guys from the heartland had pulled this together, they'dbe caught, and now they'd been punished, and at was reay thd he s. ti ren rrt"chth mch gave to two journalists. and i thought to myself i don't know much about this case, but i don't believe this. it see likthere are parts of the story that ar miing, i ses lei anng rths t e tt. th rzee rn'ssifen sllnohat

different, and, in fact, many of the fbi managers who want everybody to believe that they did get to the bottom of the storwill say over and over, we know thawewere rit becse venf i to t sff nd a bs. l wsng ore cao lahoma city, i started asking questions. i heard a million theories about all the things that had been missed, why they'd benissed, los mf ti, re a o qtis th pbi oeg hd of the full goverent case file and talking to everybody who was involved on the inside in the investigation, there was this, you know,abulouopportunity okt mstal t tnsin w h nbeon bre prt,, know, it was of -- the experience had is less important i think than the outcome. i di ver toe

foerngcc ichhe i teach journalism is it's very important to tell the differce between what y ow and what k di me so bge stmad a t ti ie, little more sharply than before. there was -- yes. >> first of all, i'd like to ank you. i read your bo as soon as it th yt exll haou fheie ike loerld rs , ninnter there in the murrah building, so i'd like to recognize her, and colonel george wallaces on the investigatiocommittee. saillovhewoli clt to literary orr sk because i've been

looking into the bombing for years. i'm a film maker, we just released a documenta. yothurpyer >>y,e. mes ihebt ha testiis whstil matters. so i would like your viewpoint on why i fail to see an indictmentof current office holds who mayaven vo wtheve. d lu e h o'w rnerf un ss ri -o dtl in responsible for the murder of kenneth michael -- [inaudible] who was murdered in federal cuody because the fbi tou he wa jhnoenu ne nli was a raosorara a tiercvas going around trying to recruit people for this plot. so why it still matters, i was goerthe le nou chose ldicferho imy

ioerskwi r have and now janet napolitano is now director of homeland security, ericholder is now attorney general, responsible for executing the laws of thunited states. - >>igsu llrs aja i i ioriat thheintth mri rhrs time in 2001 how it really hit home, and it hit home because i talked to people who had directly lost lod anenaweitunre e et idhe memorial, that was the moment when something in my tom act just flipped, and i thought this isust the most ghastly thing thatula pib ja yno t eon ac tebi 'suw, m ways sustained me and kept me interest inside this story for a

long time. and she's been somebody i've spen toanoff r s, evodoteoin e ind rli t thtfdeboha happened to them and why. so, absolutely, i share what you're saying. in terms of the other issues you brought wth nit l alouponost pono t.atey th was a tremendous amount of law enforcement in kingman, arizona, because mcveigh had lived there. cuttg a ea dl wwho ended up rn, aefor, d e he, . e awh community of anti-government activists mixed together with people who were involved in the crystal meth itui, essy ca tzopats wp

veal certainly knew. i started o this project very interested in the arizona angle, wh f ththenow, all the w or tpe wou li hbe sin mo closely. one man in particular by the name of steve coburn who was a chemist. hoal evllrked foredsi unlegu soe khoeld plesd ovent was after him for a number of things including the suspicion he possessed an m60 inun whhe w ct o o carnaner atar f hn 94 heed disappearing into the desert in arizona. and it appears he knew mcveigh. the fbi established that inay19haeyreden

inovokryg about coburn except what he could tell them about mcveigh, capable of carrying out the bog. eyoredesny fm t a kt dtit rnsan df e inokthe tv and seemed to claim kind of ownership of it. he talked about bmbing a federal building in theys forehe bng efb t jic rt ooos mply

ngk napolitano, i'm not sure that was her decision -- and, again, i get this from the documentaon. woman who was the number two charg s.orne corn9,d w decision. i don't know what the mechanics of that were because no one's spoken to me about it. most likely the decision came from very high up in washington, ear,y litee reasolate silegethtu o ig i noha ple inaisse excuse me, that steve the coburn was just too crazy to be effective in any kind of plot. warrort.kn ifh asm ha oktlo mho napolitano directly closing down any lines of investigation herself. which is not to apologize for her necessarily, it's ju what youknrs wt do

ow don de,'m rectha doing in 1995 -- >> 1997. >> in 1997 he became deputy thto galspal riy isehnd noin g i the murky details of what that was all about, but essentially tre was a tremendous bureaucratic bale between the justice haas w tndfant b me t b f fiascoes at waco and at ruby ridge. congress was tting very hot and heavy and, essentially, the justice partment had a ceai amntffoio ns hafoioonpe l nenondt was this giant game of chicken, and they

should havbeen focused on the bombing. and thisot in the way spectacularly. th dtyre ohei the,ar p,as inigatn,n as kicked out of the i altogether. it was tremendously disruptive. your, i'm going to address the trinity thing veryuickl fo e ou tw, eas m bth n he iobrt touy okmain t erf '95. he died very violently, the initial ruling was that it was of a suicide. that was then subject review thlteit'ayey oontsir osanait comes under the rubric of i don't know. inms plekiboany evidence in

atatome t lljehaen leaked information because he was seeking justice in his brother's death, and he'd actually been told by feral agents that it was case isn iti jo d,me tattoo dub. >> let me stop you there because everybody can watch "a noble lie," i'm sure you gonto it in greatde. thas sodo n fel t. was d kifmer was the first source. >> right. >> he wasn't the fist -- first one? hesonv fec otwa shoix bngestias sece filed many different suits for freedom of

information act, for release - >>t, mk. koave toy aha t 'seme ry valuable service by bringing documents to light. as far as his brother's concerned, it was a bii don't know. the focus thi boowa alumow t stiooldndhe gst ec te tinig at we know about for sure, that we can document and talk about, and for that reason we made a decisiowe weren't gog to tal about this pcu-- hav oe n y me egean t. usuit ass at aadto ter nichols, since he's in a supermax, i was just a little curious how were you able to get that access? >> it's a great question. watiprterovi ceo ma h

prm. is aea can't tell you how we did it, but roger charles, my co-author, was responsible for finding a wa g acces rr fi ayonoilb yl tryk osenit-- coteen from the time he was arrested and brought in federal custody until about 2004 when he was finallhe fiy ne wot g he w rteoif i e t iah sedtirdo ouutha he knew. those writings increased over time, and once we got access to him, we asd him hureds of quesons wheave try il ust evhie uut i kn a lot of things, a lot of new light onto issues. so i'm extremely grateful to terr nichol for his

ial tk'seen,ous a researcher. owry hrn tthispbi f nu omicti ct redthbog. whether he's admitted everything, whether everything he told us was exactly t truth, that's, you know, something that we pause very fu bon foht dhe thry nls f , lt,he drv recognition. >> yes. the gentleman behind you. >> [inaudible] >> c youal ait bit wi rd hi ses uihare f ssrdu h o in which he was trying to get the cameras on the building, the north side of the budi a calelncnc t lvito oct tineyulot

release them on the grounds of national security. and when i saw that i thought to myself, what in the world? . >> that is notuite right. >>hareyin aystne ruen exiv ahe th building, for example, with the department of housing and urban development and others said that they wertaking a couterlaper he mes en haed tth bin k. and the instructor for the class said, it's an earth rake, everybody ju under your -- earthquake, everybody jmpunr yoesk. er wa cef ple fo, ahe abo >> at of people, al experts have suggested there were explosive devices inside o th building which wod eain

y,woxn tla ttbrasth wh iowmo. rht. >> could you address those two -- >> sure. these are two thicks that were much -- thingshatwe mu sibot e tidam, i cte u wetorg. dono t? hom hunt -- tom hunt drew up a survey of all of the security arrangements of the building in febr 195, ahe thil aotrkoid d tyo eie dg hnderry concerned about this and wanted to do something about this, and the answer came back no. jesse, you know, i don't want to dwell too mu on m, b s e rn miex tergh ve b fag se ra in o e comy of

errors, the people in the records department of the fbi clearly don't know, have not seen this documentthat i've endon'thany wave om h ctaneyra tas w, e re hiot bage exists or not, so we're going to fight this on legal groundsnd, you know, cover our bases either way. and this has been going on now r ea tham n .ha tstu erpa o what jesse is suing over, so, you know, i'll leave that to one side. as far as the expsion, the fact that a lot ofopot stff,t let ub tp,ha eras ialuw, ind a much bigger blast that came somewhere between, i think, 7-11 seconds later, this was something that e --heas aeost

exiohaeeo suenxped w they felt that was mistaken. i've spoken to a tremendous number of explosives experts, an the explanation thatas gin e i twhpe liha cesn cu th fec a iaasou g something called the negative blast wave where the a suck back in, and th was what impacted the building harst, andhat ca snyple. t ye. let's talk about yo mentioned in your speech the >>,enou fuel andvi ammonium nitrate, you can't do

it after 25 minutes because that's all you have to set it off. >>ll i c tell you on ech vry tyhoo momch he deedcron the composition of theomb. i showed it to endless experts in government, out of vernme. they all sdboheseic d nty intst i tre dreomh o. nale drerochern terms of how they described the bomb being built on the 18th which then raises the question, u know, mcveigh claimed to be theasinut has ysaindisig emchleicha ch. soes i ain book is this raises the possibility was nhols the mastermi, or was there someone else whohow them to d olst mb br mgh w,ga

nu ohest nossto tnsport the bomb the way mcveigh descrid it. that's not something anybody i came across with real >>tisaasprm. nale goetody h a >> [di goto ask.wa >> right. >> i worked for bank of oklahoma about a block south of where the murrah building was, so itas qu ertere mus thath it wmofotl inatevodyowntown experienceed. not only the people personally involved at the building, but the whole down rid e amna k. er ln -- a lockdown for two miles, i don't know how quickly that happened,

but i know you could get out after a whe, byo dn't ta iothra. biobine e stineomg he th perimeter was set up around the crime scene, that it actually wasn't done properly, d this was a big part of the reason why the fai t erorcdeto cosiabthvi xpd, ahee atourt over that for a couple of reasons. number one, because the dense had a terrific forensic lawyer by the name of chris fom texas.

it amene t scce. ers initial follow-up bomb alert at about 10:30 a.m. and our have after the initial blast,ihvefdra ors c to u prvisl me itn'bg enough. which need is the entire dris field plus 25%. that didn't happen for quite some tie. ev depte se t'skn ri oem errecepe ngi,d af hescericn aan point of view entirely understandable but it wasn't done that respected the integrity of the crime scene.

ohoug to cover e atthwaemus stadni t esyeitwth moisre. so again huge missed opportunity to gather evidence that could be used effectively to wor out how the bomb wasuil, whmight vebl sic th.lesnd ud] ertaly from the point of view of the search and rescue operation there was no experience of this. theme of e in on evening of the bombing in paicuarve r a stat s sorisemad n se t yon waya they tried to boss everybody on them. they credit for everything the fire department done in terms of restinpe, inem o of h eyll pd pagl bedppallingly is they

didn't respect the request of the fbi in terms of hitting on to the site as a crime scene. once it became clear ther were plouav onro e he th11s thas madg. m tobuy, i can do whatever i like. it did not do any favors to the assoof w iouigation. two and a half blocks from where the federal building was. i heard two explosions. >> rht. spevodddos noeydd bs peoplef argued with me for 17 years that i didn't hear two explosions. know what i heard. rig.

aor htth bomb was not made -- that it was made in southwest oklahoma city. i fiy goto gto hreew as itn mdeb iot ve mo mcveigh was -- he and my second son were stationed together at fort riley kanas and ey nomms t wto rs gt y olot atl that bomb that he and tim made did not blow up the federal building because they didn't know how to m bombs ath waal p ot era lo eme nobody wants ttalk

about. >> let me address one or two of those things because ihink to rurshaeee rced offoro attre,t di think it'svery important to try and distinguish facts from fiction. it is absolutely true that terry nichols has witten,nd he wrotto ua lome an de with mcveigh did not destroy the moral building. it is ompatible with what exploded. the issueodin t [iib asslr. >>l,ha, a negative blast waves makes a tremendous amount of noise. assuring of the collins and the building and taking makes a terminus amount of noise. fi t epetsinhe

aue] iggt [inaudible] >> right. by all means read the, see who i've spokento. challenge their credibility if youant, uti e i fttoyo aak r ii. miim s, whe other point? about them not building bombs in the army? ihink igenuinely a question leho b a ob yk tep eeal efonty'ayt' t htold t a hrecord shows to the extent that we know about mcveigh and/or nichs evce bsngvic, wev weevdnc f ug ndnis i scof bth was detonated on the day. i think it's a real question as

how they built it, wit the nfidcetonit o o diaain d s of gne sw uio esbolsav question? okay, yes, go ahe. >> could you talk bot simerer e er of really interesting, troubling fessing things in this story. and women is a german national by the name of andrea who vinola f thmmftheinti i a real mystery to the who is. over the years the've been suggestions he was some kid of an intellince agent eiher on noveth ede easo cotl susong

teenthhals engenswasatue believing not see. and that maybe he went hoit wwa aithdegome abtfaened to the reason he became involved in the investigation was primarily because he had met mcveigh at a cancer 93. hedgvecvh as fnd shed we shy.ngou which raises the question, david mcveigh go there in the day before the bombing and in the book i found no conclusiv enutlt ovce iehty hdo s f onatan sh aan aele womel ignored. it also raises the question what does he know. was himself involved in the

plot. suit sofgt i ver ort tag he g lh roin hnd r t ofseng i don't think he would have spoken to me if he was involved in the bombing direcy. having said that i think he knows a lot. heidtee hat hkns. thkhaver try fds h edy lyut ig hhicrleor their every interaction whi just it wasn't just 10 minutes at a gun show in 1983 but the relationship went on for much longer thanthat. thiesn he as hat w inpocin an whi nto which has as for me of them previously known. he spent a lot of time initial. he was put on patrol duies e elmy elot hi oe inon

b. hemblce o s very high level people. he goes back to germany. he still in the german army at that stage. he can from tis to e. yoowegerat ec g. he comes to the united states. one of the first people he contacts is a cia operave who, hi ho la pi a heshing to get a job in the administration as george bush senior when he became president, he didn't get that job. stmendcoul't go and stmeusllart t p heclistless. he did know what to do. he showed no interest in getting a job. he showed a interest in leaving the united states. he fell in with a lawr whose

job is to represent memberof heye hosl or o anvelley sp th a dece to send him thinking he could marry one of the young women there, get agreeing card ad geta jo and gea li andet othei waarmbthae t ungn p weaponry and talk about a showdown with hebeeoc wa of hrmlsita he and mcveigh had an associate. i think he probably knows who else might involved in the bombing. he wouldot go there wh me, fortunely. tftth ongn na tercin d hef fb veataclyt coy g

he wanted to go and grill himn berlin and find out everything you need to he was overruled. inhedsanen i t hene i ke uhofsoll tiify gep rtd f investigation. thwhole mr. of strassmeir was left hanging. he reminds that bi of the broader osama binladen faily r wt hud' tireoto venttaad eaae ha nniobee geh of bad family, they were put straight on plane and flown straight out of the country. same thing with strassmeir. wae enta.lowed t leave and that othuis oni opn.ga, y >>'st nee wee g fui il one more, keep it brief. thank you. [iudib] thi nvigthghyof

ngres rotm a iay- ud] and the unsatisfactory resolve and to those issues was partly responsible for the bomin. tfnkpd, s ctaniio toern ro pi eye nfiltrating a lot of righ wing groups -- that i know the question. let me just, i didvste t wn otif doictisoat te to the answer in 19 in and it started because an informant told the fbi that e had heard among th group wplngasinfb en eif he hend mey. everything he said turned out to

be pretty unreliable. the story about attending to assassinate i agts tned no r. cldoe cg ut th sest ne w laeoe anttho atebwh swatrying to sell missiles on the black market, that the fbi looked into tt, too. an iestifwout not to betu enitptinclin al wash that this informant was not reliable and it gave them nothing of any substance. ere are people out there who believe at some have pac thllomin veatbytefi car iht aoit me i er ge teadfbi before it occurred, i found no evidence of that whatsoever. okay, thanks. it is no more questions i tank you very much. i'm intob gin bks u. ec yin n

l . ppe] >> thanks for coming today. >> thank you. spent either one-to-one upyu nky ato icm tr t stint , t me aia with this. >> he knew some information that he passed on to me. he is source o te bok' but i t le -g. gh 'sy. number two, i have an offer for you because i know if you came here, are like me, you are seekinthe truokay d ngmk onn-fe opportunity of a tour of the bowels of this

building, which in 19 house eofesoufo g dofls of stairs of about 10 steps apiece. so if you will do that to waive liability agai-- ky d ht. th why it doesn't make the edit. i would happy to takyou on this. is anybody wanting to do that? thoomigfos is the pa tt rr lcoerttne ani will show you whatt took them, if you're interested. naudible] >> out the really. no, no, no. pl, yo b ind.tmdnt,n

ew. otpe.on cnwl briefly earlier and that is major same breath who was sitting here who's with the oklahoma city bomb squad. he was a major in the national gu hero jalhao e inatve hetanbdy fo tremendous asset to this book and want to recognize him and thank him very much indeed. [applause] [iudib] >>y,y. ikfrtkoma city bombing investigation committee. >> all, you didn't? >> yet. our group was notveryinam [inaudible] they just never ever, you know,

came out. e nestitias sant hivnt a otyl rcbkrenkla . int more visit full circle bookstore. tvitedefony xp tashso siedthss v s la sed n their way west. now missouri's capital city has a population of about 43,000. 100 utah's when you click the surrounding metroara. >>datr tia collections. my name is alla baabtarlo, d i ery glad shouome riqnditrti fabu probably the most old

object yuris these babylonia clays. danilhihha a wewhahs about 4235 years old. you can see this high knee yolsheheaytdin. bl is ao. and on them it is very hard to see, to decipher anything at all. eyeelyole thas let he of king nebulous, which is offer of book that allows us to pin point the datof its

in uswama t un tablets which have so much information on them. t i pbl et , cows and bulls as well, form of torture. egyptian, andhnyts wehv scs my latin. but not necessarily latin only. this one which lso aly . hw.must

and this is the book of ruth. 15th cetury, whifnly twiretig e e ml very elquent. and here you can see, and this anuc h hifntsr the animal e was immortalized for this aclmn ale scs q, but love to show students, especially those who study bibliographies, love to show thi ok f --r aos00ya

[inaudible] yon thisbeautifululaolatng. comments, andally oist. apparently it was either a professor or intern, or we nnotmagi h ayhandiskulav hned t t sratti

manuscript, because it allows the students to show the work of the tries. note thisivsible lwa blnnsme cls hth ow the lines were made so neatly. because the tribes first had to thhee.his hole in the pagsad this makes it more clear what the ntences. mari is at a libraryn yale university.

[inaudible] nevertless it is a beautiful manuscript, and t son goro them. sometimes we have this capital anr iin okinaio be case, this is the encyclopedia of anima, or history of anmls this is a very detailed, with

allknsoes e i igr we have beautiful illustratio of fish. is ia boo of fih maofe have famous human faces, like this one. some of them aren't even smilg. y,ralfn d --this monkfish

sngceomesnters. mus osui g av our library is this manuscript. weut n sal poecn buneis sti book. it was a very, very tiny book. then when i opened tha, t is ndte uakisve i very tiny book. the book is the gift tousy

me vehianip o leio sit n widsewrithis late wife. al elhe sal rio atr. one, such that she did in secret, trying to rotect omy ndfa a om heothathrewas this theory that she and her father, they invented imaginary dondhyhdt ld wivn hs dondyte

them. so they were able to read it. and the last thing i wanted to chr -- this come here you lae can see the signature. the handwriting. acfhe a ane iry the monogram. ths tryabty children who was promoted from a very lowly rank of the regiment to the ako or mi,

can grd, major in generals army. he was promoted for his crazy, vie eseh,ae ead 1790. it took me a few years, and ab s-isges from alltemrs and and those initially demoted. usek me i onfr blunm