what i'd like to see happen is more activism on the part of nss. [inaudible] they have held their- i wht suiongryrlto i w ltohaouo much for coming and talking to me. it has been a real pleasure meeting you in discussing a lot of these issues on the program. yes, i would be glad to follow up on what happens with this book. >> thank you so very much. i really enjoyed thi thankyu

>>hat was "after wds",ook aus iniebyrogr nwh nas, public policy makers, legislators and others familiar with their material. "after words" airs every weekend on book tv at 10:00 p.m. on saturday, 12:00 p.m. on sunday, 9:00 p.m. on sunday, and 12:00 a.m. omonday. you canalso tch rd lit o.oalc ftorin th topics list on the upper right side of the page. >> throughout the month ojuly, book tv has air ev interviews of auths and unsirscoia cgeeries. next we hear from professor todd gitlin about his latest book, "occupy nation." this is about a half hour. c- 2ou are watching bo t aurlytmp cola er iw york city. interviewing professors who are

also authors. we are now joined by professor todd gitlin whose latest book is called "occupy nation: the roothe spirit, and the prome ofccupwallte. isfiedk pybut professor could you tell us what this book is? this is not necessarily, this is a e-book. >> it is an e-book that is on its y toe aphysal book th is how amale wa. itinpiite improvisational spirit of the occupy wall street movement. this is a book attemptingto come to grips with where this strange phenomenon came from and why so much of what was taking place inthcontk edy an journalism and what the forebears of it are and what differences are from evious movements, and what are the prester moving t

>> host: has occupy wall street been successful in your view? >> guest: yes, you now see bumper stickers with say 99% rate was just in new york where i oughthe candidate runni r cet t ideo it is not legitimate to talk about inequality and the domination of america by plutocracy and an oligarchy ofthe super ealthy. noit is notufu nt has not delivered concrete results except for a few cases where has succeeded in reversing of foreclosure or restoring some people who have been illegitimatelyit and processed in a

self-contradictory. it is an american phemenon hicht leader? >> guest: it does not have a letterhead it does not have a form of leaderip. and i don't think it ever will. what it does have his actual leadership. peop who are etduse dinhaoh people won't approve of and again respect. but i think that one thing this movent learned from the 60s is that it's dangerous to have thntte media to anoint them and elevate them and ridicule them. so i think that this is actually -- this leaderless mess is not something that just cropped up st e this has been a

dominant traditional on the left side for 40 years. it is now the new order of things. >> host: professor todd gitli is not how the tea party staed as wl? leerle in fftaes >>sts no e pawsummoned by a broadcaster on a television network. that is not exactly leaderless the tea party is a complicated phenomenon. t to quote someby else's lao wbot.e i hope you have them on your show. the tea party has a grassroots dimension it has a pluto reic nearmrenced baeand coattohy they follow leader. they are not uncomfortable about that. the left is more rambunctious

and more authoritarian and oshe-oosus of itself. ta updated? >> guest: well, couldn't be talked talking you if it was constantly updated. no, insofar the various stages as the book was ready to me and came back to me and i could fiddleith things. d a trwalo thome photographs by victoria schultz, which will be in the physical book. but i must say that i am pleased reg nev on my most rcn tl oatavt stwh believe. it didn't require any radical update. but movements are strange and if i be at eb. occasion, i am sure

>> host: todd gitlin, you were president for students of democratic society wht was that? cot vasanfan attempt to enoton eft etagt nuclear weapons or for civil rights were for participatory democracy on campus, and to provide a sorof home where people fromhese various movements could talk to chter d orkutty inmo a really a small organization by today's standards. maybe 1500 members by today's standards, some of which were realnd some which were not. eventually, of course, a balloon into hv, pin notorious entity that became more militant and ended up when it ws exploding with faction

fighting, probably ahundred thound or oemm ornization? >> guest: the membership rule is very fastidiously -- i would say i took away around 1967, early 1968. wsfo ur meic regnd also less wild and woolly than the newer crowd. and i was deeply troubled by all thetetr se process of dancing off the cliff and spent a fair amount of time denouncing what seemed to be a reckless and unethical nd vera r turns which is

delightfully, relatively free of. but i never cease to believe, inigg hapdaotf me inig ieiwas in the process of flying apart and i wrote earlier books on the subject. i never really shook my conviction that th was a great democricetht isemfoerhing that went on around it, that it was the energy behind every gathering of democratic energies and a refocusingf democratic priorities that did this country aevidednd horrible war and promoted civil rights and equality, racial equality, economic equality. itrovided a foundation for

grrengce isouct among college rinario ways, not always expected to the women's movement and the movement. it was a great liberating force with these topoloe jolit mbso university. heavy media coverage in the 1960s of the student movement, how does hat compare to media coverage of the occupy movement? >> guest: there was dioncerting similaries, haveo say,hngtd osafare ra e0 otsni was writing my dissertation of berkeley in the 1970s,i frequently, looking at the coverage of the occupy movement, journa ntleng attoi it bleeds it

leads, that is to say the skirmish at the edge ofthe crowd were some people are rested and some ugliness bres out between the cops and demonsators, t is a bigger pe oe stet e a,s say 2000 actually as i saw that most americans didn't see because they couldn't beat troubled of the camera overhead and shoot the crowd. a lot of trivialization of the demonstrations thwer morexic le more that gets shallow coverage, which is the norm. there were exceptions in the course of the 60s, a lot of journalists wiseu aoiven should not be expected to behave like a board of directors. it is stranger and more unedictable n iteedt

eson otrs ursmal scrambling to get what does not meet th eye and what ds not fit a formula. and i think on again, it has been scrambling. thatitw,thdt qte nersnd t e ntaatk of dramatic transformations were going on with it. they didn't of the arguments within it. they did not quite understand. i think the nglegat thg te era e ter haey 'terd t occupy movement, what a huge popular base to begin with. which is actually quite different from any of the movements in the 1960s. the moments of the 50s and 60 whchr ghovt heth repo bnoes been exulted in retrospect. but at the time, most americans felt it was going too far and

too fast and it was too militant, the administraon and the eyes and eyad -- most americans were enthusiastic about the war. most do not belie thatomen meould make qa wswth ga let alone to demonstrate in public and declare so. they begin wi a sizable super majority who believe in taonfiiaivetxationnd sans, he so-called robin hood tax and increasing the quality and incresing regulation -- intelligent regulation of banks and so on. ife are dismayed by some

of the tactics of the occupy movement. >> host: is there still a core group of people down wall street? >> guest: know, the police chased them and if it didtn. sas wns tan pe nd country. they are of very different sorts and have different impulses and so on. but i think that that is -- there remains a core. they hav cence cal and et andorkiu. eyancona demonstrations. it is sometimes hard to find because they were deprived of a public place to assemble. they are harder to report now than they used to be. you knw, he hav hepsan downs. >> host: is a professor here at columbia, what is your opinion of students today. are they concerned about social aan pntof etc.?

yleschools graduates are interested in going into finance and management consulting. there was a time before the bubble burst around 2007. i don't know what the numbers were,btharar inn, oe snt winin b nantsuts financial figures. i peed aer e uli loreuniversities -- the pocaelafthkids amec. inybr

that their bread is buttered on the side of the oligarchy, not to be too crude about it. i think that most students feel a cool and is wards e cu ve. n'owthhall is not. it would've been other protest agait austerity budgets and where political policy by the students lives themselves, that they feel, and that they n be aroused by. we saw the great, rather her unsif fodi cnrtas would pepper spray and so forth. there had been such eruptions. overall, students seem to be -- when they think about doing something good for getting back,

dowasvthinkof omhiheyrase, they coti acin. we tend to think of personal goodness and personal charity. which i am not knocking. it is a different orientation to the orld ta we hink of is asatite en stt loan issue could be nationwide issued a get-together? >> guest: i'm not sure. there is certaly a tog mont t tis one of the important dirtionto go in. to have an occupied student debt website.

but you will default on your student loans come as soon as we have a illion peopldoing the same, so you if you like a moral criminal for taking this personalact a ldode- this neraon students are far off for my generation. it ist y an yil ato orodeur parents. >> host: it has been nearly 50 years since you erved as the mocric sietyocie prent. rslchod ge vo ioran t edid yo grow up? what does your parents do? >> i grew up in the bronx, and went to the new york city public schools, i went off to harvard, more than anything else, i studied math temc

sed ae oemang area. i actually worked on one o the adesso size coputers. which had about as much computing power as my hmna accident involving whole arms race - a wig me out. crazess out wtnd of stru my innocent sense of order it seems unfathomable ununy, encountereds some young activists who had

some very shrewd ideas about how to appeal to a bunch of harvard students who were quite cynical soey eeu grainy and methodical -- they were ot alter militants. they were very congenial. so i got iolved ihei s e m b these people. i felt a lot of comfort with th. i felt morally aligned and intelltually engaged. foe l rgts movement,e o which back, in turn, between these two strands le me to meeting some of the sdf people, especially the group in ann arbor at the university of michan w jumtarted the

gati d ffo h them. i don't mn warm and fuzzy although it was warm and fuzzy. i felt intellectually engaged, challenged, what i loved about that world was a combination of rian clarity.tu these were smart people. they didn't want to be good or they wanted to do good. hey wanted to apply reason as well as passion to t rbem. >> host: we were outliers in 19631964. >> guest: yes, very much s. >> host: have your politics changed inhe last several g: thv. ulop. anyet i would s at my principal -- and to me, to be

intellectually alive a politically alive to be i t w rk s, u a someone has eckersley said, of course i changed my mind. what do you do when the facts change? the world is dfferent. and, you know, i would like to think that 'm otone f epolatthg hne t96i evil, as it was at the time that everything happened, neither do i believe that everything was glorious. i recognize more colors in the remote and black money. rgrmye continued with that. i have different responsibilities. t iepoils at e hadootha a e

feel that i'm struck by continuities. i am more courageous about stating my views-- but have outlandish views, the radical views about the movements. but, you know, a lot of the work -- writn work that inspired me a ofus we radr it. i orient to it. of course, there is a spirit. i m teaching a course actually this summer on the 190s. lmouheciri mend vam a on. that which i found dispiriting

and dismaying, i still find it empowering and dmaying oa i feel that my young self would not write a letter to my old self has become. >> host: did you have anfbi le of ructions. i ao it inot very interesting. mostly women impressed me was how foolish it all was. for exame, they kept misspelling my nae evy melmy onirt.aoerals trailingalong, i learned how serious they were about maintaining something called a security index. the security index was a sort of on a rll opplethed

bvve the theory was that under national emergency, which technically we were still under because of the korean war that never ended, the members of th security could be rounded up. sot ewun'ringnorizedfrudu the llerof the unid stes government. and so i was honored to be on the security end of it. if you are on the security end, it was very important -- tha the i thought it a mo tis.whboat every six nths or so, they would make what they called a pretext call. to girlfriend or weresomehow eraacen whereabouts. the pettiness and the pickiness and the cluelessness of it i i ptthxtaordinary.

euphemisms. as late as 1965 i was living in chicago and working on a book about pooreople, but also involved with community gang eynoallynderan efi h the sds was primarily a interest not in its own right, not because there was such a thing [indible] bu t wcoise omee otin the ate s hano wtag about. this was late in the game. this is already after the first g national anti-vietnam war demonstration. this is after years ofivil an n cmvmuivity, is isft

there was something new in the air. not all, but many of the reports on varous meetings arin that apch oldtug lees o the 1950s. you know, i'm sure there were more intelligent people scrutining the new let a ink e -c ele walking talking figures . yoir aat.oar >>st wam b them. we were intuitive -- i mean, the fear was helped in the deep

soutwhere so l we nove withte stent nonviolent coordinating community we living under a terror ste. and people were being killed. they have legitimate fear. anheti.uofhenweret. the fbi was just standing by taking notes while organizers were being beaten. no, we were pretty spry and one might say foolhardy. in a a,e e ratrfl of our own vigor. >> host: whave been talking with professor todtlin sp, thomof k pyl sothe author of the 60s, years of hope, and days of

raves. thank you, professor yes two you book tv egolome and thank you. esti tmowi rem mbuiit our next author talks about the influence of the dutch on religious influence in the united states. this is about 15 minutes. bo o c- 2,we tallarasiso with professors that are also authors. this week we are at colombia university in new york city. now joining us is history of professore hefy. o heuthoof ts new book, new netherland and the dutch origins of american religious