country for the next 50 years. we can't afford that. so you're all revved up for this election? [laughter] [applause] good! >> you're watching booktv on c-span2, 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books every weekend. >> from bus boys and poets in washington, d.c., lisa dell pit contends that recent reform efforts from no child left behind to the proliferation of charter schools have failed to assist african-american students and address an achievement gap. it's about 50 minutes. >> i guess this is, may not be on. is it on? can you hear me?

okay. i can't hear it. i just wanted to thank all of you for coming out. it's an honor for me to be here. i don't know that i've ever done an occasion like this, and i do believe i probably write better than i speak. so i will just talk for a few minutes. there's so much in the book that it's, i certainly can't talk a lot, too much about it, but i will start with the story about a young man i met yesterday who's 11 years old, and he's avery, a young african-american man. he gave me -- his mother showed him the book and some other books i had written, and he looked at the title, and you could see his mind, the wheels in his mind were grinding, the gears were. and he was trying to figure out

how to ask me about it without being insulting. [laughter] because he clearly thought i had it wrong. [laughter] so he read it, and he said, well, what's your response to that? [laughter] and what i found over the years is that it's such -- i love, love talking to children because they are so clear-minded about things. and so i explained the title to him, which i'll explain to you because you may have the same question and not be as diplomatic as he was. [laughter] but the title came from a child asking her tutor, an african-american child, asking her tutor how come you're trying to teach me how to multiply, miss l.? black people don't multiply,

black people just add and subtract. white people multiply. so, of course, that quote stayed with me, and i explained that to avery. and i asked avery, um, did he find in his integrated school in maryland in a very good area that people had the attitude about black children that they couldn't learn as much? and he said even though he is at the top of his class in mathematics, he said, yes. he said that a lot of times their kids -- he named some names, and he said, well, they act silly all the time and act up, so people think they don't know how to do anything. and that struck a chord, too,

and i told him that, well, from what i've unearthed in all the classes i've been in, a lot of times kids believe that, um, if they don't know something, they have two responses. the first response is to hide out which is the kid in the classroom who pulls the hoodie over his head to try and pretend -- and puts his head on the desk to pretend like he's not there. and the other response is to act out. because then if you act silly or act out, you can prevent whatever was going to make you look dumb because you didn't know it from occurring. and air ri thought that -- avery thought that that was a good explanation, and so that reaffirmed for me that our kids

are actually seeing a lot of the things that i was seeing. and those, that's what was in the -- that's a major part of the book, that our kids -- well, as beverly tatum said, we live -- if you live in los angeles, you live and breathe smog. you don't try to breathe smog, there's no intention to breathe smog. you may not even know you're breathing smog. but if you live in los angeles, you're breathing smog. and if you live in the united states of america, you're breathing racism. it doesn't matter what color you are, you're not trying to breathe it, you don't want to breathe -- you may not want to breathe it, you may not even be aware that you're breathing it. but we're all breathing in these toxic fumes of negative

stereotyping, negativelier is yo typing certain -- negatively stereotyping children. i've been asked why i've focused on african-american children. and the answer to that is i have one -- [laughter] that's the first answer. but who, as you'll see if you get the book in the acknowledgments, believes she has taught me everything i know about other people's children. [laughter] but it's also because i think this is the conversation that is never held. this is -- we all talk about the achievement gap, and we talk about all the reforms that you all are i would say familiar with, but i should say afflicted by. [laughter] that people are trying to maybe address this. but nobody ever talks about

race. and nobody ever talks about -- within these reforms -- about the fact that a black child and black education is not just a dumb white child. there are issues that affect african-american children and their teachers that don't affect other people. i was just -- since the trayvon martin horror there's, i don't know if you heard about it, there was a poll that was recently conducted. i just heard the results today. 85% of african-americans believe that trayvon was targeted for race, but only 41% of white americans believe that.

80% of black americans believe that trayvon's death was racially-motivated whereas only 35% of white americans believe it. and for me the most telling one is 60% of black people believe that racism is a big problem in this country, but only 19% of white people do. and i believe this all of us -- that all of us, you know, the man who pulled the trigger on trayvon, obviously, is the one who killed him and who should have a trial related to it. but all of us who do not have that conversation with each other and with our children, we have to take a part of it. because trayvon was all of our

child, was a child of all of us. and we're not putting ourselves in enough situations to defend and prepare, prepare our kids. as i said, i have one, and for a number of reasons i am, you know, i'm concerned about her. i have plenty of nephews and nieces and young men who, like avery, who i talk with. and there's just a lot that we owe, owe them. because we all are breathing in this cloud. and if we don't find a way to talk about it, then we're going to have -- as we have had in the last couple of days -- a lot more instances of this slapping us in the face without our realizing why.

so actually i think i'm going to stop talking now, and i would like to hear if you have questions or things that you want to talk about. >> if you have questions, you're welcome to step up to the microphone here. again, please, give your name, if you're a teacher, what subject you teach and what grade, and ask your question briefly so we can field as many as possible. >> my question has to do with parenting. >> with what? >> with parenting. yeah, because i think that if parents read to their children, that's the best preparation a child can have for school. because the school's going to teach them how to multiply and so on. and the child will come to respect reading. a couple guys got on the subway the other day, and they came --

i was way in the back of the train, and they must have come back on purpose. and they pulled out newspapers, you know, to show that they read. and they took out the sports section and stuffed the rest of the newspaper in a satchel, so hopefully they're going to be reading some of the front page, you know what i mean? >> okay. >> yeah. >> would you like me to chept on that? >> yeah, sure. >> okay. let me just start with a little story. i, as my good friend who drove me over here, alma roberts, knows and the complete -- i'm a complete sports phobic. i know nothing. and i did not want to raise a child who knew nothing. so as a single parent, single mom i put her in various sports, and she was in, well, yeah. there's long stories about each one of those sports, but let's talk about softball for a

moment. and i said, okay, i'm taking her -- i found a place, i looked up, and i took her to the softball place. and the coach wanted to talk to parents. and the coach said, parents, you have to get out there and help your child learn softball. [laughter] and i thought about that, and i said, well, gee whiz, that's why i brought her to you, because i don't know anything about softball. [laughter] and it dawned on me that when we tell parents sometimes all the things that they're supposed to do at home, many of these are very young parents, many be of these are limited in this their reading ability, many of them don't have a minute to sit down, and we tell them, well, we can't teach you unless you work with your child at home, then they probably feel a lot like i did when that coach gave me that message about working with maya on softball.

so whereas i think it would be great for parents to read to children, i know that many of them will not. the question then i ask of myself as a teacher is, if i know that parents are not reading to children, what can i do in the classroom to make sure that this child is read to? and there are a lot of things i can do. if i have kindergarten children, i can get third grade children to come and read to them. i can get people in the community who want to volunteer to come and read to them. i can read to them myself. i can get them to read to each other. and so i think what we need to focus on when we're teachers is those -- we can really get very depressed very if we try to focus on all the things that we can't change and that we can't effect. but if we can focus on what we can change and can effect, i think we can have a much better

shot at providing the kind of education that all children need. >> hi. my name's michelle, i'm principal at e.l. haines public charter school here in d.c. and i am, um, i have a question about the statistics that you gave about the trayvon martin case and the number of black people who feel that that was racially motivated and white people who feel like it's not at all. layer onto that the number of white people who are teaching black and brown children across the united states. what are things that you feel like school communities can do to start to address the systemic racism that is there and that, um, whether people want to appreciate it or not is a, you know, the achievement gap is the residual effect of racism. so how do we start to address that in small communities? >> well, you know, i haven't had much of a chance to do it

because i've not been in a university this supported it, but i've always believed that when -- i've done it in some classes -- when we are teaching, teachers, we need to bring in folk who, parents and people from the community who may be activists in the community to talk about education and what are the issues. and this came to me because when i was in alaska, martha who's a wonderful teacher, native alaskan teacher, she said in the villages what she would like to do is just have the teachers listen to what is it, what are the problems that our kids are facing. so i believe i would try to really have -- and then another, in another instance in another situation i have had people, men who should not have been

successful, but who were, like, from very low socioeconomic backgrounds come in and talk about what made them successful. and they inevitably say it was one or more teachers who did it. and it was the stories that they tell that helped teachers understand what a -- how strong their influence is and what, how much of a difference they could make. so we have to have the conversations. but sometimes if you just have it with the people in the school, you get this. can -- and what i've found is it's much easier to have the conversation if you bring in someone from the outside to just talk about their experiences, to talk about the race or the racism that they experienced in school or that their kids experienced in another school -- not in that school. [laughter] so you can get some defenses

down. and you may be able to begin the conversation. because people, a lot of times the reason why 19% white americans don't believe racism is a big problem is -- i mean, not 19%, 81% don't believe it's a big problem is because they've not had the opportunity to really listen to people who have been affected by it. and you can't hear it, apparently -- because i've tried -- from your colleagues. [laughter] it's really tough. you almost have to have, you know, bring in neutral people to begin talking about. does that get at it in some way, michelle? do you have a -- any other questions related right now? >> the follow-up is if you're willing to come to our school to talk about -- [laughter] i'll come find you after. >> okay. but you understand it's not me coming, it's -- they need to hear from folk in their own community.

>> yeah. >> because when i come, i come and i leave. >> yeah. >> and, you know, that was an interesting interlude. wasn't that fascinating, what she thought? [laughter] about those people who are not us? >> yeah. [laughter] >> but i find it is much more powerful if you can and easy to get a consideration going. >> thank you. >> you're welcome. >> good evening. my name is julian hipkins, and i teach u.s. history at capital city charter school. and my question is about the different content areas, the different subjects. do you feel like there is one that is requiring more attention now than another? >> where you do teach? >> capital city -- >> what? >> i teach history. >> with so i'm sure history must be the right answer. [laughter] >> do you think that there is a subject that requires more anticipation? your book is, obviously, titled multiplication, so do you think math is the area we should be focusing on as educators, or do

you think all of them? >> well, you know, that's ironic that multiplication's in the title because i am -- my mother was a math teacher so, therefore, i avoided it at all costs. [laughter] but i think, and this is partially because of my own orientation, you know, in which i believe that people should have enough math to be able to find the chapters in books. [laughter] but -- i'm kidding, i'm kidding, all you math teachers out there, i'm kidding. [laughter] [inaudible] but i do believe that critical literacy is extremely important. but, see, i think that connects with mathematics. because if you look at math, where our kids aren't -- they actually -- i don't have the data in front of me, but they

actually do better than expected on algorithms and things with, you know, problems, the arithmetic -- the numbers. where they fall extremely short is critical thinking and reasoning and estimation and word problems and anything that has them trying to put together facts and trying to come up with an answer. so that, to me, is critical literacy whether it be in text or in numbers or, or in thinking about history. but i think it's the whole idea of you are a thinking being, and you need to use your mind and not just spew back facts. and i know everybody says that. and then i, you know, but oftentimeses people don't realize that what they're doing in classrooms -- i had one situation, one of my students

she videotaped a class, and she thought she was having a real conversation with her kids. and then she played it back, and she saw she was talking a lot, and the kids had one or two-word answers, and she -- even then she would answer a lot of the questions herself. yeah. and she ended up changing her whole way of teaching. but often we don't realize, i think, as teachers how much we're feeding, feeding the kids and not allowing them to do the thinking. >> thank you very much. >> uh-huh. >> good evening. my name is jamela manny, and i'm a middle school assistant principal for friendship public charter school here in the district, and the question that i have for you is if you could expand a little bit about how african-american children are not born with an achievement gap. if you could expand on that. >> right. and, jamela, you have depressed

me greatly -- [laughter] >> oh, don't do that! >> because you have said you are an assistant principal, and you look like you're in high school to me. [laughter] >> i'm almost 40, but i'll accept that. [laughter] >> i mean, at one point the teachers looked -- kept getting younger and younger, and now the principals are looking younger. [laughter] but i will. and the answer to that is, actually, there is an achievement gap at birth. it was misspoken in the liner notes, but it goes the other direction. all the research that has been published has shown that children of african descent -- and that's in the first chapter of the book -- are more, very, much more highly skilled in cognitive as well as motor

skills, and they can do things, they -- so much so that the pediatricians', you know, charts about what babies should do at certain points, actually, if an african-american child or a child of african descent is right on the money on that chart, it's quite possible that they are having developmental delays. because if you only looked at the children of african descent, the chart would shift way to the right in terms of being able to do things -- or left -- much more readily, much earlier than white kids. now, and that's been, that, the studies that i quote in the book, one is in africa in the 940s -- 1940s, michelle gibet who was doing research on what she thought she was doing research on was the effects of

malnutrition on infant development. what she found out was that, um, the children she was studying in uganda were so much more ahead even though they were malnourished than european children, that they blew both cognitively on every scale she could test them on, that they blew the european scales out of the water. there's also research by two pediatricians in this country in the 1990s and most recently i think the one i quote is phyllis -- [inaudible] who did a dissertation on that and found the same thing, that african-american kids -- now, they tend to even out around the fourth -- 4 years old, 3 or 4 years old. and then once kids get to school, the trends actually start to reverse. now -- >> why? >> well, you know, no one has studied that question. maybe that's a question we need to study.

but that's what i meant, that's why that statement was there. thank you. >> hi. my name is tiffany mitchell, i'm a seventh grade history teacher at cesar chavez charter school for public policy. and i wanted to touch a little bit on the age that you brought up. in your book you talked a lot about the kind of pushing out of veteran teachers and more of an influx of younger teachers, and i was curious about your thoughts on the profession, particularly for minority teachers, education being a long-term, viable option where it seems nowadays, you know, most young people don't stay in the same profession or the longevity factor is not there. so i was curious for you to speak more to that. >> [inaudible] >> tell me the question again now? >> the question is, could you speak a little bit more to, i guess, the problem of education now where more veteran teachers are being pushed out of the classroom, and there's an influx of younger teachers?

>> right. well, i mean, the theme that i talked about in here was, actually, teach for america. not because there are not absolutely wonderful young people who are involved in it, but my concern was that they only make a two-year commitment. by the way, some of -- the ones who stay often are excellent teachers. but my concern has been that they, that the whole program in many cities is they are hiring tsa teachers or not just, tsa, there are other organizations as well, while pushing out veteran teachers. and that's certainly in new orleans after katrina. all of the teachers were fired. and that has a tendency to reduce the numbers of

african-american teachers and increase the numbers of young white teachers. but many of whom, unfortunately, are leaving quickly. so i believe that our most vulnerable population which our children in inner cities and urban settings are those who need excellent veteran teachers which is not to say they may not also need some young energy, but they need a combination, and they need young energy that's going to stay long enough to become really excellent at the job. and i think most of the research suggests that it takes about four years to become really good at teaching or to reach one's kind of potential as a teacher. and so what i would like to see in that is, you know, young people making a commitment for more time, to stay more time and also having more of an

opportunity for them to work with excellent veteran teachers. not just all -- because i am not naive enough to believe that veteran teachers are the answer. by themselves. but there are some excellent veteran teachers, and we need to make sure, um, that we focus on those. >> thank you. >> hi. my name's anthony, i'm a pundit. >> hi, anthony. >> also happen to be in a family of educators, you know, pretty much everybody in my family has taught school from one time or another. >> yes, i do. [laughter] >> so growing up when i was a kid mostly i heard the same statement over and over again. anthony would be a great student if he would apply himself. [laughter] and, you know, my response -- i mean, i really wasn't eloquent enough to tell anybody at the time, but i'm like, i'm a kid, you know? i'm stupid. kids do stupid things, they don't apply themselves. and you don't necessarily work in a scenario, we're not taught in a scenario where education is

built for children and their inability to excel, hyperactivity. i was wondering what your thoughts are trying to bring education to the children, catering education to children and their issue so they can learn better because of the fact that they're kids and respect supposed to sit -- aren't supposed to sit down and be still and -- i don't know about supposed to. but, you know, it's difficult for children. >> well, i mean, yeah. interesting question. i was just thinking if we went to a pediatrician, we would think that they would focus on children. so as educators of children, it might be a good idea to focus on children as opposed to just focusing on a curriculum. and the best teachers i know actually say i don't teach a curriculum, i teach children. and we do, part of the reason

why the overidentification particularly of african-american boys especially in special education is because we restricted so much what's acceptable and reduced so much of what kids like to do -- like the arts and athletics and sports and music and all that -- that we make it even harder. i mean, the response for kids not doing well in school is to take away recess frequently. and, you know, for a kid -- okay, the kid can't sit still to sit inthe reading group, so we're going to take away recess. [laughter] you know, it just, it doesn't make sense what we do, and i've had my child, who i refer to as having an army of one, is, has had all the issues that any kid could have in school from adhd

to just many of them. .. is there learning style. [laughter] >> that is running around and that is not -- they should have

said it. i think we also at the same time have to be extremely careful about insuring that in the name of everything we do with children is in the name of academic achievement. not just because it is easier. does that answer? >> i am an assistant principal for the middle school. and so my question is around how do we as a educator is create a place where students can begin to have conversations about race particularly because i want to transform this conversation that adults are having to allow an powering students to facilitate this among themselves and the interview to get insight into how we can create that culture in our schools? >> do the teachers in your

schools converse about race? okay. is it a mixed group of teachers? are they talking about race? >> the building trust and going off of those stages of relational trust from beginning to more advanced. i don't want to say they were -- initially may be different levels but as the year progresses they get to a different place. >> have you had a conversation with them about how they would like to have a conversation about race? >> i have not. >> i would start there because you find people having a lot of worries about bringing up the issues and in conversation is the best way to handle that. i also think -- what ethnicity

are the kids? okay. you also need to let parents in on what is going on because i will assure you you have a conversation in class. at least five kids will go home and tell their parents something that they heard that they thought they heard that was not in the conversation and you have five people screaming at you because the principal will disappear at that point since it was your idea. so i think it is really important to raise some issues. a relatively small charter school. we will be having some difficult conversations and some

conversations about whenever it is you are having a conversation about. and might start with having a conversation about the civil-rights movement and we are going to ask parents to talk about their experiences during the civil-rights movement. black-and-white and whenever or if it is about immigration we are having conversations about that rather than asking parents to come in and lead that conversation with kids about their experiences. i think then you begin to create an environment and like you said it takes time to build that trust. middle school? >> i work mostly with middle school. >> elementary kids actually easier because they have finely

honed sense of fairness. the kindergartners will tell you in a minute what is not fair. middle school begins -- upper elementary and middle gets more difficult because kids are bringing in more societal attitudes and they need conversations. but involving parents, talking to your teachers, having them have a conversation and involving parents and finding a book like avery was reading in birmingham, as a sixth grader but the books might be interesting ones to talk about. end use it as book discussions as well. if you can look at tax kids can bring in their own experiences

related to the text. does that help? >> it does. thank you so much. >> i am not the ninth grade world history public charter school. >> you are? >> ninth grade world history. one of the ideas from your previous writings that struck me particularly as a history teacher is background knowledge. we see basic skills really things that are taught at home and culture and white families and things and there are a lot of students of color bringing critical thinking skills into the classroom from the beginning, not necessarily honored. wondering what advice would you give to teachers to reorient ourselves and how we think about planning to better tapped into the knowledge and skills that

each of our students are bringing into the classroom? >> what grade? >> ninth. >> the kids doing lots of writing. very open end discussions. observing kids. asking kids questions like what do you think most ninth graders think about x and i started like that and you can start the conversation without them feeling they have to defend a response personally. which always is a good way to begin the conversation. i think that's -- let's see. we were talking about finding out what kids know. at that level, those would be

the answers that i have. i have seen some teachers say i want you to teach me x y z and you have to figure out how to do it as a student and sometimes that also gets a sense of how they are thinking about a topic but also what it is they bring to the table. just talking to them. it really is. that is how i learned a lot from the children that i work with, opportunities to have lunch with three or four of them about something. >> i am and after school teacher and i will be in the classroom next year's so i will be a first year teacher and i was wondering what is your best advice for

someone who is new to the teaching field? [laughter] >> the thing that helped me feel a little bit more secure because i was scared to death. i felt like these people are leaving their children with me? the first year that i talked. it was really useful to put in my head that i am going to give all the i can but i am not going to be -- may be their next teacher will fill in the gaps that i did not know about this year. nobody is excellent across the board in their first year.

a lot of kids love first-year teachers if they -- if the teacher -- as the kids say -- control the class and everyone is not jumping all over everything. they love them because of the energy that they bring. but they do need to understand and get help from the more veteran teachers. what do i need to do with this group of kids when i first go in to try to established the environment that i want to have. the best thing i could offer and i am saying off of the top of my head the best thing i can offer is make sure you put routine in place and put them in place early. thank you, teachers. talk to some of the people who are here about things like that. better teachers and principals but once you have some routines it is much easier to puts up

that they have wonderful great ideas. that is what i would say. >> my name is carlos morales. i'm a pediatrician. >> hi, carlos! >> something with a colleague regarding the s 80 list. i am sharing my views on the s.a.t. tests about it being a biased tests and select people of higher economic status at the universities and higher education and this issue you mentioned about race and discrimination came up. something about how this test is a racist tests and it keeps people out of the universities or higher institutions he didn't really want to hear it.

just your views overall on the s a t process and selection of sins for higher education? >> there is a book called filling in blanks and it really is about people of color. he is a psycho attrition. somebody who the numbers person -- current analysis is different. and looking deeply at the process. it is an interesting book because of that. i would recommend that. a lot of things going through my head, lot of the problem is the s 80 -- ask 80 --s.a.t. does

measure the cultural things people learn outside school or any standardized test. the biggest one to me. the most obvious one is let's say somebody speaks the bonn next and that is tthat is the l learned at home. some people who speak ebonics are brilliant. i know some. but then you are given a test on english grammar and if you speak standard english that tests doesn't measure much about how much you speak and this much you can speak standard english.

if you speak ebonics it is as if you are taking a grammar test in another language which is nothing to do with the ability to learn and that these true -- two groups -- you are not measuring what was taught. you are measuring what was brought from home. does that make sense? that is one example of it. the argument -- the thing i would rather do is say we need to think about the fact that there are differences between what african-american children and many, not all, bring to school. we need to make sure school is responsive to teaching them the things that they may not have gotten which for me include even more field trips for example

because the kids from poor communities, how can you understand some text about a zoo if you have never been to one. how can you understand all down the line. i hope we need to think more carefully about what the students we are teaching neat and we need to get you to a place where they need to learn a second meeting of standard english learned -- become culturally familiar with a lot of things. and we change the way you are teaching. >> i am cynthia and greer and 5

associate professor of counseling at trinity washington university. schools of education are under attack. what would you serve the best practices in terms of teacher preparation and also. what is the future of public school in this country. >> in 20 words or less, i don't know what the future is. i do know the path we are going, we will hit a brick road pretty quickly. and will look to see how the pendulum. and will get new orleans which

is privatized in other schools. somebody will say this is stupid. we need a central administration and we need to remake some kind of school system all over again. i think the privatize ears are going to run into a problem. i hope if they don't educate all children they won't run into a problem. if they push some kids out, the way it has been done at some charters, at some charters in the world that i am aware of if the child -- they will set these kinds of things -- if you where the wrong color tee shirt you can get under your clothing you

can get suspended. the people in charge will tell their parents we don't want to suspend the child and we don't want this to be on his record. if you take your child out voluntarily, then it won't be on his record. you can put him in the school down the street. a lot of schools will cream kids that way if they want to get rid of them. [talking over each other] >> what are some of the best practices in preparing teachers? >> the thing that i don't know what is going on in a lot of teacher education program is the thing i would like to see to teachers having the opportunity to learn more about the communities they will be teaching in and learning to identify not just what they don't know but what they do know as well and i don't see a lot of

that happening. >> i would like to ask you a question. >> come closer to the microphone. >> i would like to ask you a question. why do you think african-americans cannot arrest in this country? why do you think african-americans cannot progress successfully in this country? why? >> the short answer is some have and as long as there are a few have -- you are right. but i am saying the few who have are used as an excuse to say they are doing okay. but i think the general answer to that question is there are still stereotypes about people of color in this society and

they are inferior mentally and a whole bunch of other things. [talking over each other] >> tell me what that is. [talking over each other] >> you should see a teacher. >> until we as african american learn slave history ourselves, then we will progress and go forward in this country. we whack our slave history. [talking over each other] we don't understand that our forefathers built walls with their debts and picked cotton crops in baskets. that is how the american stock exchange got started. we built them their world. >> have you done any writing? >> no. >> i wish you would. i am serious. i wish you would because we need people who know the history to write about it.

we don't have enough books out there. >> with that we have to close the question and answer to make sure we have enough time. please give a round of applause to lisa delpit. [applause] >> we would like to hear from you. tweet as your feedback at twitter.com/booktv. >> how old was she when she killed herself the digital david maraniss? why did she kill herself? >> she killed herself because what we know is she left a suicide note that said she was distraught over her husband's philandering. that was the immediate cause. >> host: that was the president's grandfather's mother. >> guest: yes. she lived to be 26. because of that dramatic event,

his older brother ralph moved back to eldorado with arthur dunham's parents. and his great-grandfather, christopher columbus clark who had fought in the civil war. >> host: where did stanley madeleine's grandparents meet? >> guest: they met in agusta which is 12 or 15 miles from eldorado. it is gone the way to wichita and that is where madeleine grew up. stan had been out of high school for several years. he was working in construction in renovation down there. >> host: what was their life like? >> guest: their life before they moved? after they married it was sort of her parents didn't really like him. the first thing that her father

said was i don't want you marion that's what. he is dark skin and an element of race in that and she married him secretly. before she graduated from high school she was a very smart young woman who had always been on the honor roll until she met stanley who was slick haired and slick talking and promised to get her out of arkansas -- i mean kansas. that is what she wanted. she had grown up loving bette davis and the sophistication of hollywood. she was the the the small town and stan promised something else. he had been to california and promised to take her back there. their lives were somewhat unstable. not that their marriage was unstable but jobs were always unstable and so it was a rocky

road. >> host: on the can yet side of the family where did the obama clan begin? >> guest: it began in sudan but i start the story by lake victoria to the southeast of a major city of kusumu. it is a very poor part of kenya where the luau tried is centered. they are about the same and that is where the obamas found themselves. >> host: on the president's paternal side who were his grandparents? >> his grandfather was hussain o onyongo who was born in the late 1800s and was in the first

wave to the westernized. 1/7 day adventist came to western kenya, his name was o a onyango and lending list from seventh-day adventists and became inculcated into the british colony so he worked as a chef for the british military people and folks in nairobi. and the mother came from another village in that area and hussain was a difficult dive to live with. he beats his wives. he had several wives which was part of the culture. when he moved to the area near where she grew up, moved back to

another homestead of the obama clan around lake victoria. a new younger wife, and she ran away. she left the family when barack obama the president's father whose name was also barack hussain obama. >> host: his grandparents in kenya died in 2006. did president obama ever meet them? >> no. he never met his kenya and grandparents. he got there after his grandfather died. on the side of the early days, he didn't get back to kenya, and dramatic difference in that. >> host: barack obamathe story, how many interviews did you do?

>> almost 400. i have a wonderful assistant, in specific parts of the story. traveled all around the world. everybody i could find in every part of the life of president obama and his parents and grandparents. >> host: barack obama sr. was born in 1936. what was his childhood like? >> from a fairly early age was dealing with western culture. he was a very smart kid. his father was difficult to get along with and not often there. mostly in nairobi and barack was growing up -- he was lucky in the sense that he was smart

enough to get into the only good school in that area. although he never totally finished, he was a very smart student and you have that sort of clash of old and new and his generation had to deal with it. for all his youth and adolescents living in colonial country in a very for part of kenya, he lived in mud huts and goats and cows and no television or anything like that. almost a century behind in some ways and yet kenya was starting to reemerge during all of -- the rebellion was beginning, the push for independence was