and a detachment of reading from underlying knowledge. you have to build knowledge to build readers. so that it was the whole tradition that started back in the '20s of american education shouldn't be fact-based. it should be how to based. it should be individually based. all of that -- >> child centered. >> child center. that kind of thing, told against what the law, what the no child left behind law was trying to achieve. so i do think that id is, as much as laws, are very important to education. and my hope is that what's going on now involves him openness to new ideas about curricula. >> you want to -- >> particularly the common core is a new element to our kids will know more.

>> regain our competitive edge, let's talk about money. do we need more money in public education? do we need to spend it differently? >> i can tell you in our state, our view is that we are spending more than the average, but the results have not been better than average. i think would be difficult for me to say that we need more money. i think let's do better with the money that we are spend but i think we want to be strategic about it but i think, i thought the conversation, professors presentation this morning about professional development was very interesting. most teachers that i talk to, i can't speak for anybody here but a lot of teachers i speak to feel like so much of the profession is about the money we spend is an absolute waste. >> that's what he said as well. >> but i can tell you i talked a little bit, i always tried to stay away from the buzzwords but we have what we call these professional learning

communities, every teacher in our state sitting down several times a month for 45 minutes with five of their peers. this is very hands-on and this is learning from the data, learning from each other. and i said recently, elementary school teachers who were focused on teaching kids to add fractions with different phenomena to the data was clear they were not making the progress they thought the teachers took it upon himself to reach out to neighboring schools, which were making more progress, and these teachers felt like this was the best professional development, these professional learning community, the professional development they've ever done. >> and that's internal accountability. >> it is. and also collaboration. so i think there's a lot to it. so i think that we've also, we've had visitors, brian hasn't others, we have had visitors from other countries that are done very well. we were blown away by some of the facilities and class-size, by what we have to offer you. i think we have got a lot.

>> more money? >> no. what i've said before is it's not how much you spend, it's how you spend it. and we are in the process now, i mean, we don't have more money. in the state of nevada. so we want to ensure that every penny that we are spending is effected. >> you have cut education budgets 5%, k-12, 7%, higher at? >> yes. that's because nevada was in a situation that i talked about earlier this morning. these are difficult decisions, but at the same time the status quo wasn't satisfactory for me and that's why we're going to be implementing some reforms in the state of nevada. we have a new state superintendent of schools who just walked in the room, doctor gupta, welcome. very excited about having him, and he is going to be bring a lot of new ideas to our state and i truly look forward to working with them in that

regard. we have clark county school district representatives from there, and doctor dwight jones is a superstar, rockstar. we all are coming together to actually get down to the nitty-gritty of what is going to work in our state, build it from the ground up. >> if you look at money and international scores, we spend more money per piece of point for any -- just do the analysis that we. we actually spend more money, so on and so forth. but we spend it in korea or japan, they will spend it on that kind of professional training, i'm higher salaries. we spend on small classes. we have this obsession with class-size. is that, would it be possible to take that on, head on? >> i think that's actually, it's

worthy of consideration. a lot of the professional research suggests that if you take him if you get great teachers in front of a slightly bigger classroom, that may be just as good an expenditure as having a smaller class-size. and so far in delaware we continue to invest in additional teachers to maintain class-size. and i think the broader point i want to make, we also tried to stay away from the word perform -- reform. reform suggest one massive shift. i think the idea really ought to be about its continuous improvement. we are learning every single week, every single month, every single year. and let's make sure that we adapt to the. that's what great companies generally don't massive treasure mission all at once. they keep learning. i think we need to do the same thing. >> regaining our competitive edge, the country says we're eating our lunch, or eating us for lunch. [laughter] their kids spend more time in

school, longer days and longer gear. i mean, is the issue that we are still stuck with this big american model for school in? >> no, and that's a paradigm that i've talked about, that we're going to explore, we need to change that. because we can't be locked into this model that we been in for decades. as you say, the world is changing, the world is getting ahead of us. and we have to recognize what is going around us, and no longer just come to this conclusion that we are doing the best, and that we can ignore what's going on. so that's why we are, i have a rare opportunity as governor in a state that has a lot of challenges to really implement new ideas with a new superintendent, with two very dynamic superintendents and the two largest counties. >> so what is your big idea, a change would love to make?

>> just between us, one of the big pushes we are going to be in our state, which is not -- i have tracked with governor bush very close in the state of florida, and it shouldn't be a novel idea that every child should be able to read by the time, grade level, by the time to finish third grade. is going to be something we are extremely focused on because that is one of the greatest indicators of who is going to do well and he was not. >> you know don school, the first graders are reading. i said as someone who's been to a bunch of them, is that there? >> yes, that's there. >> is that a reasonable bar, competitive edge, third grade? the danger then you are setting as a floor and it will become a ceiling? i mean, i'm curious about your thought about that. >> well, it a lot depends on what you mean by reading.

reading has different parts, decoding, sounding out the words, it also means understanding what you are reading. so you need to solve both of those problems, in the most efficient way, most effective way. and yes, and we tried to do it by making the learning of phonics efficient, effective as possible, and the building up of the background knowledge you need to understand what you read to build that up as efficient as possible. so it's a problem of yes, effective use of time, and just you can do it by the end of first grade in second grade. certainly by the end of third grade. but you have to distinguish what you mean. do you mean just decoding, or do you mean building up the ability to understand significant or difficult text? that is having a significant

knowledgebase and for category. and you want to work on both of those elements and not just consider it reading. >> what is carpe diem? >> the part of the economic -- higher teacher salaries with slightly larger class-size. one of the reasons i think that, there are many reasons we believe in smaller classes, and apparently they are, that is more important i in the very earliest grades than is later on. but the great researcher, compared education, made the point that the problem that american classes and teachers face is not diversity of an ethnic racial kind or economic, it's diversity of academic preparation. so that if you have a large

class of kids who are very the firstly prepared, it becomes an impossible situation to deal with. and so that's another argument for m.o. coherent curriculum study early on. then yes, you can have much more effective teaching. you can have somewhat larger class spent if i could just comment on that as well as, going back a minute to question about more money, one exception i would make any answer i gave, last you we did put more money and and i want to thank dan ritchie. i think he is down your summer, whose help is on the girl each other efforts. we're going to increase over the next five years, 20 to 80, 20 to 80 percentage of poor kids in delaware who are enrolled in -- >> which is four year old, three years old? >> basically six weeks old up to kindergarten. we think it would be a game changer.

we made a really significant investment last year, and now, of course, we have to keep it up. >> where's the money coming from? >> it came from within our budget and we had a little more money, we have more money that came on the table. so i was told i could do one more. >> so one step to regaining our competitive edge is early education? >> i believe so. and by the way, there's a personal piece, i'm sure probably people in the room have met, if you meet a five year old kid who's already a year or two behind their peers, who already has a deficit, deficit of a cabinet of a couple thousand words, it's an unbelievable tragedy. and then beyond that there's actually very good research from the federal reserve bank out in minneapolis that is the most economic development, economic and element investment a state can make is in early childhood education. so we think that this could really be a game changer. >> do you agree? >> i do.

again, we have our economic challenges in the state of nevada, and so we have got to really be focused on what we're going to do. all things being equal i would love to be able to. >> how about getting rid of senior year of high school, taking that money and spending it -- i'm serious. i did a piece on the "newshour" last week about a school district in south texas were essentially the kids as juniors and seniors in high school are taking college courses, community college, and graduation this year, 110 of the graduates got their aa degree and their high school diploma at the same time. >> with a couple schools that are doing that in delaware, and i think my experience, talking to kids who drop out, so many of them drop out because they don't really see the relevance anymore between, the connection between what they are learning and what they're going to do with the rest of their life. and i think some of these kids, not all but for some of these

kids to be able to stop going to classes a year early -- spent or just go to college. so regain our competitive edge. early education. >> i want to commend what you're doing in delaware. i think that's very smart. >> spend money differently. >> beg your pardon? >> i'm just trying -- >> just a early education in preschool is not enough. we have to again bite the bullet there and say it needs to be an academic preschool. it can't be just touchy, elite babysitting. and it needs have a coherent degree. preschool, the very best preschools have a curriculum, french for example. by the way, i have two microphones here. >> we will go until about quarter after us with some questions. come up to the mic but don't come up with a speech to come up with a question.

[laughter] i can be very rude. so let's identify a big obstacle to regain our competitive edge, the major obstacle is the -- >> the major obstacle without any doubt is the fact that we as leaders or for whatever reason have not done a good enough job, the sense of urgency to parents, to students, to our communities about the fact that we've got to up the game. and again as i said earlier, we are not saying all the job postings going on overseas, and so we come is a very different world these kids i think, the more that the families and communities understand that, the more, i mean a big part of it, kids also -- >> but you were saying communications and i want something that is in the way. >> it is -- i think it is, it's

an inertia. inertia is not quite the right word, but its a sense of complacency on the part of families that their kids, i mean, the opportunities they have are bigger than ever by the challenges they face are also bigger than ever. they've got to step up their game, and part of it by the way, when i visit schools, sometimes i'll have kids, usually high schoolers say to me, what are you going to do to make my life better? and, of course, my immediate response is, the real question is what i you going to do to make your life better because there's oh so much for teachers and parents can do. we've got to do a better job of having kids take more responsibly for their education. [applause] >> is that applause suggest that they're not ready to take responsibility of their own shortcomings? the kids have to do more. but we have the school system which is focused on getting answers out of kids all the

time, they are answer factors, when the world has changed the needed asking kids how to ask questions. so you're saying the opposite is true, too many occasions. >> no, i think the complacency issue. >> governor? >> i agree with the government there is a huge down engagement component, but it's also been able to evolve with the times. as you say, this world is changing with technology the way this. this world will be very different 10 years from now than it is today. and we have to give to have a very nimble education system that is going -- >> the obstacle to that is? the biggest obstacle to? >> we talked about before is being blocked in this paradigm that we have been in for decades, and be able to laugh, and we're looking at nevada about a three-year program, being able to move on to get your a associates degree, get into a certification program. we have to be nimble and able to

meet the needs of this new working environment. >> locked into paradigm, that's what i see as the obstacle. but to my mind as an academic it's locked into a paradigm of ideas. and also the general feeling that we don't want a definite curriculum imposed on us. the resistance to the. but if we don't get some more -- that is a tremendous obstacle. >> but i hear educators say my job is to teach kids to learn how to learn. >> yes, that's a version of the how to three. as with the obstacle is. is about idea, the how to idea versus the what idea. >> i don't need to know what because i can always look it up. >> yeah, and my question is how do we look it up if you don't know the words of the things are

looking up. >> okay, i see a question to tell us who you are and give us your question, please. come on up. spent i'm from the maryland senate. i was interested in the banter between the two governors regarding what you take more money from the feds and let them tell you what to do and how it -- how good no child left behind. and it occurred to me that you have a static statistical model, which counted achievement not based on how long they're in a particular classroom or school. and that the same child can be counted over and over in many different cells when you look at the output. so you have got a broad statistical model with the kids there because they're having -- there in another place because of minority, there in another place, based on his family income. >> so what is your question?

>> my question is, given all of that, governors, would you reconsider your answer if you apply to race to the top money in place of your no child left behind? >> we didn't get race to the top. top. i understand what you're saying. i think there are dirty success if i recall correctly if i recall within no child left behind. that was one of the biggest criticisms i've heard from the principal of the schools. you might have one child that might be in three or four different cells that would bring that school or that one student would take that school from one place to another and they want more flexibility for those kids. and that's why we are seeking that waiver, or one of the reasons we're seeking that waiver from no child left behi behind. >> governor markell? >> i'm not sure i understood the question all that well but i will tell you in maryland you have a wonderful new

superintendent, was a secretary of education in delaware until a month ago some not even going to answer your question. [laughter] >> let's take a question you. tell us who you are and your question spent i'm brenda warner, the 2012 teacher of the year from north dakota. my question relates to the comments on helping students to develop the vocabulary and analytical skills that they need to navigate complex tax. i teach 12th grade english and i'm wondering what you see aca classes, what role you will see them playing in getting students ready for college, rigorous course is? >> the question, my hearing has gotten very bad, but did you say ap classes because yes, advanced placement. >> mice and teaches them, but -- mice and teaches them but i don't know what is in ap classes. what i like about the tragedy idea is that you know what you're supposed to learn, and

then the test can really test with the bonus. that's a model i think that's very valuable. >> they are a mile wide but only an inch deep, and, therefore, you cannot dig into something because you're in a time because you have to keep moving along. >> there's a place for survey courses of getting a general prospectus before you dig in. i don't object to mile wide inch deep. if you're going to dig later. spent question over here. >> jim, i'm the minority chair of the house education committee, pennsylvania. and i've heard a lot about structure and extended days and all that, but i don't hear very much about infrastructure. now, i'm from philadelphia. governor markell knows we just went through it seven days of temperatures at almost 100.

how could you have a school open longer days with no air-conditioning, how could you have and a just and schedule when the actual structure in which are putting kids don't function that way? there's nothing talks about money to do that if you're going to change the way we do education. a kid, the bad kid who ends up in prison is in a more conducted environment than the kid who is good and goes to school and suffers through 100-degree temperatures. >> we also spent more you on that prisoner. >> you also do a lot more for the kid in prison spent so is it unrealistic to talk about making structural change is? >> i think there are all kinds of implications if you're going to make those changes. by the way, when the question of longer school year came up i did respond to that when. i think you got to figure out all this is put together to we heard the presentation this

morning about how burnt out so many teachers get, and then how, and how, particularly, you know, the longer these kids are in school, along with the teachers are there. and so just having longer school years, if you're not changing everything else, i'm not sure you can really achieve a lot but i certainly agree. the idea of having no kid could possibly be effective in a classroom with the kind of weather we've had over the last couple of weeks. i think there's lots of implications, including spending money on air-conditioning if we're going of longer school year. >> is the way we recruit and train teachers and obstacle to regaining our competitive edge in? don, you're not a big fan of teacher education i met. >> i think that the system is interconnected. that is, if we actually decide to have a substantive curricula instead of a how to curricula,

then i think the consequence will be that teacher education will get more substantive, which is what has been, what's been the problem. i mean, if you know that in these early grades these are the concrete subjects that are going to be taught, then teacher preparation will get itself involved in teachers learning about the subjects. right now the schools have fallen short because schools are how to institutions. belonging to the intellectual or -- >> our schools a problem in your state? >> my view is that when you're looking at results across the country, which has been as mediocre as they been, there's probably a number of different factors including that which was just mentioned. i think if i want to start some place i think i would go back to the presentation this morning. when i talk to teachers about

what would really make a difference in their lives, what would make the more effective, this idea of working in a school in private which is collaborative where they feel like their voices heard, where the ideas matter, i think that's a very important place to start. but there's a question, i think we can come we can do better across all righty of fronts. >> i've been in schools where once a week all the teachers who teach don get together and there's an opportunity said, you know, share ideas, kind of a grand round, those are structural changes. let's take a question spent rebecca holmes to lay, ceo of the foundation in mississippi. i'd like to say hello to governor markell. i formally headed the reading institute. >> great. >> so say hello. this morning we heard about developing the social culture and collective will within

schools and school districts. and my question is directed towards the governors. as members of the body of the national governors association, we all talk, along with the association, we all talk about our competitiveness, our international competitive edge. do you not see your responsibility as developing that same social culture and collective will within the governors of this -- america? my governor is not here, the governor of mississippi, the lieutenant governor of mississippi, nor are any of our state legislators are here. how do we get all of the governors of every single state in this nation on board with developing this social culture

and its collective will with respect to the core standard? but with respect to developing every single state, and t competing with one another, but competing collectively and developing these initiatives you have collectively. >> talk about collaborative competition. how do you do what? >> i think they are engaged. they may not be here for this conference but i know in my conversations when i speak with the governor herbert, i was just with the western governors association meeting and education was a huge topic at that meeting. they all -- i think all of the know but i can't speak to all of them but at least in my conversations with them, they all understand that education is incredibly the most important component of having that competitive edge in being able to engage in what is now a global economy. >> and -- my view is that like

governor sandoval, i think a lot of the governors all really get a bit but i would also say what we said our colleagues is a lot less important than what you say to the people you vote for. and the governors are much more interested in hearing, as are state legislators, are much more interested in from the constituents largely determine whether or not they will have a job, than they are from us in other states. i think, this is one of the issues around the country, and it really gets back to my complacency comments earlier. i think the more that the folks in our states, regular citizens understand how important these issues are, the more likely all of our states will progress spent we have time for a couple more. >> hello. my name is katie smith and on the 2012 minnesota teacher of the year. i want you to focusing to teach parents education in early childhood setting spent and your question because we're running out of time.

>> i, minnesota, have made a for your commitment to serving families and parents in early childhood settings. [inaudible] about the changing landscape and the changing culture of childhood in a way -- communities into -- >> need your question. >> parent indication. and i want to know what kind of effort, specific efforts are making in your state to include parents in the conversation. >> is that a question? >> yes. >> okay. >> so, we actually built into our race to the top plan funding for each of our districts to come up with their own parent indication of progress. this is one of the things where we thought i'm trying to dictate from the state house or from legislative hall what principled engagement looks like is asked not as good an idea as having each district where there are a lot closer to the student, a lot closer to the parents coming up

with their own plans. so we are very, very supportive of it that we think it's better for us not to try to figure out, you know, at a statewide level how to get parents engagement how to get each of our district having the same conversation with parents in those districts. >> i would respond just as reporter, but 38 years with school people, and i am baffled by the. and asian. i don't know any parents who are not engaged in their children's education. it's educators who put up the drawbridge. it's educators, the drawbridge goes this way. educators are saying leader kid at the door, leave the money at the door. it seems like great teachers i've seen in first grade, they build the engagement into the homework. they say go home and talk to your mom about the first movie she saw an come until the class about. then write a paragraph about this, and then about stuff, go shopping, do some math come an independent is engaged because they want to see what the kid is

writing about. >> i wish it were that easy. [applause] >> i understand. that's not even done. it's like, it -- >> i will say it is and i know we have to stop. it's amazing for me as a parent, i have two teenagers, and we always went to their active school night. schools better kids went to for the most part, the school nights were packed. i visited other back to school nights throughout our state, and teachers are sitting by themselves. that's true even at the elementary level. it's very, very difficult. >> we have one last question and then we've got to break. i'm sorry i won't be able to take you. you win the lottery. >> thank you. my name is angela wilson. on the 2012 department of defense teacher of the year. i currently teach in electric my question is to pull. what are your state doing to help the 1.9 million military kids would have around the world? on average military -- my second

question is we just adopted a common core standard which is perfect for us for the military students, but we haven't started and i'm curious what your states are doing to help teachers buy into this and develop ongoing professional development to make sure that the standards become effective? >> so, the single most important answer to question, the first part of the question is the fact i think the a doctor of common core and i think the best argument across the country, when i talk to people who are skeptical about common core is focused on military families because the difficulty for these students is the have to switch schools oh, my times, and if they don't come if they go from fourth grade to three, in fifth grade there studying what they steady at fourth grade in a different state. it's incredible how far they can -- how far behind they can get. that's important to then what are we doing to help teachers figure out the common core? that was my point earlier.

this is harder than it looks and i think we are really engaged now in making sure we're communicating effectively with the proper curricular support and proper training and the like. that there will be more to be written about that. it is difficult. >> if we do all the right things, how long will it take for us to regain our competitive edge? >> i think our focus has to be, we're going to get better every single year. >> is not going to happen overnight but we cannot waste a day. >> that's right. that's right. that is we do the best we can for the kids that are in the pipeline, but 14 years from now when we start preschool and are doing it right, then we can move. to really achieve -- >> work hard, work fast, work smart. >> one of the things about this conference is you'll have the opportunity to talk to these three gentlemen in the hall, lots of different places. sorry we don't have more time

that i would ask you to give it up for these three wonderful men. [applause] >> [inaudible conversations] >> [inaudible conversations]

>> this weekend on booktv's afterwards, and the book whose county, "national review" columnist of heritage foundation say they're serious problems with fraud in u.s. election system. >> there's a whole sense of things you have to do to make sure you've got an election with integrity and that everyone is confident the person that got the most votes is declared the winner. >> saturday night at 10 p.m.-ish and sunday afternoon at 4:45 p.m., talking about the largest bank failure in u.s. history. the collapse of washington mutual. part of our booktv weekend on c-span2. >> we take you live now to the brookings institution here in washington, d.c. where a group of education specialists are getting ready to discuss student

literacy. the most effective ways in improving reading skills. participants include colorado's former lieutenant governor barbara o'brien, former education department official under george w. bush, and a former governor jeb bush's letter c. director. live coverage now here on c-span2. >> i see many people who have been here probably 10 or 15 events a year, but i've never been at an event that something is in the by, and despite that it was really, we got along and make the decisions i think and i was really pleased planning, and the funny group, ralph smith, lisa kline, and barbara o'brien of the peak in bandish. and the great comments from -- not part of the plaintiff that she read the policy brief and made really excellent suggestions on the policy brief so i'm grateful to all of them. i'm not going to summarize what are planning committee organized

this event in seven proposition to most of which are facts. verse, individuals need to sound education to prosper in our 21st century. second, yet we are and under educated nation to our students -- comparisons and despite huge increases in per pupil spending, certain students learn about much they get two or three decades ago. third, we have had some closure of the gap between black and hispanic student on the one hand, and white and asian students on the other. but meanwhile, the difference in achievement between kids from wealthy families and poor families has increased substantially with direct effects on children's prospects in america. so our claim to be the land of equal opportunity has a gaping wound. fourth, literacy is the key to education. if, it follows the school system

must assure that all children can read and can read to learn. sixth, the question for this event is whether grade retention can be constructed part of a plan to ensure that all children are reading by third grade. here's our agenda. after my brief comments we will have a keynote by barbara o'brien, and then will have an overview of the policy brief by mark west. then we'll have a panel of people to react to the policy brief and the general issue of retention. and then i'm going to play the famous brookings game of stop the panel and ask them some questions and then we'll give the audience a chance to ask questions. so that's our plan. the keynote very fortunate to have barbara o'brien here. they have a lot of biograph material about every person, and we don't usually read things that you can reduce else alleges make a few comments. first, she sat at a lustrous career and child advocacy and politics. she's a rare child advocate that

actually rose to elective office, and she's a former lieutenant governor of colorado who left intellectual politics at the height of her power, and she now continues to think and write about education as a senior policy fellow at the piton foundation, and is a national policy director for the campaign for grade level reading. on a personal note, i have had a lot of experience in the last, say two or three decades, advising policymakers, and i have the highest admiration for any politician who gets out before they allow their desire to be reelected and lose their values. barbara. [applause] >> thank you, ron. and i should say my husband is also grateful because i left while we were still married. considered that quite an

accomplishment. i also want to thank everyone at the center who helped organize this. there were a lot of moving parts, because we have so much interest and partners coming together to support it. and you did a wonderful job of coordinating, so thank you. i'm here today wearing two hats. as you heard from ron, but both of them, the campaign for grade level reading and the piton foundation our focus on helping give a vulnerable young children good opportunities in life. and for the piton foundation, it's trying to not only improve school readiness for low-income children, but to try and connect best practice to public policy. and we see this event has one opportunity to really begin to think deeply about one of the policy issues that is arising for our whole country, and match it with what we know about the growth development and learning of young children. the campaign for grade level

reading is based on the belief that schools must provide effective teaching are all children in every classroom, every day. and as director of the national policy group as part of the campaign for grade level reading, we have tried to put that into concrete action at every level of our communities and states. we believe that yes, schools must be accountable, but it's not just up to schools. it's going to require engaged communities, that are mobilized to remove barriers, expand opportunities, and assist parents in fulfilling their roles and responsibilities in order to be full partners in the success of their children. so this topic today about how to address reading proficiency and what to do for kids who are behind fits perfectly with trying to mobilize parents, communities, and policymakers

about the challenges facing vulnerable children. we have focused in particular on three things. one is the readiness for gap. children from low income families are less likely to read or to be spoken to regularly, or to have access to books, literacy rich environment, high quality early care, and prekindergarten programs. these children may hear as many as 30 million fewer words than their middle income peters before everett eating reaching kindergarten. the second focus is on the attendance gap. one in 10 kindergarten and first grade students nationwide mrs. nearly one month at school each year and excuse and an excused absences. the students cannot afford to lose time on task, especially in the early grade when reading instruction is a central part of

the curriculum. and third, the summer slide. children from low income families lose as much as three months of reading cover and discuss over the summer, and by the end of fifth grade they are nearly three grade levels behind their peers. so these three pillars of a campaign for grade level reading clearly involve what happened in the life of children to be ready for school, but then what can communities do to help schools do a good job of teaching reading by addressing athens this summer and their readiness. we are all so here today because sponsoring an event like this is an opportunity for people who care deeply about kids to not only engage and discuss difficult topics, but to come together at least a round a consensus that we have to make grade level reading, reading

proficiency at the end of third grade a national priority. martin west will be speaking in a minute has raised what i think you will find are two very important questions in his policy brief, is retaining students in the early grades self-defeating? the first question is, if we take academic success seriously, and are convinced that reading by the end of third grade is critically important to academic success, how do we prevent students from ever falling behind? and second, how do we respond when they are still behind and about to go into fourth grade? these are difficult questions, because if we are serious about the importance of third grade reading proficiency, we must hold ourselves accountable for increasing the number of students who achieve it. if we are serious, what are the metrics for meaningful state,

city and district investments in preventing and children from falling behind in the first place? how do we evaluate and continuously improve efforts at helping students catch up? how do we respond when data systems identify students in preschool, kindergarten, first and second grade who are not on track? what if attempts at intervention have not worked? i am worried that it's going to be easy to make promises and set new goals around reading, because after all, who doesn't want children to learn to read? but when we have the intestinal fortitude to make tough decisions about budgets, programs and policies? everyone in this room knows that high quality childcare would make a huge difference in the

school readiness and vulnerable young children. yet, most childcare for vulnerable children is mediocre or worse. how many cities and states have subsidized childcare at a level that allows low-income parents to purchase high quality? how many states tolerate waiting lists for preschool for low-income children, despite overwhelming data on the return on investment by none other than the federal reserve? ben bernanke recently said at a meeting of the children's defense fund, economically speaking, early childhood programs are a good investment, with inflation adjustment and the rates of return, only an economist would write like this -- but i'm quoting, annual adjustments, and annual rates of return on the funds dedicated to these programs, estimated to reach 10% or higher, very few

alternative investments can promise that kind of return. notably, a portion of these economic returns accrued the children themselves and their families, but studies show that the rest of society enjoys the majority of the benefits, reflecting the many contributions that skills and productive workers make to the economy. when you have ben bernanke talking like that, you know that we have a place where our country could put much more attention, and we are failing to do it. we are here today to talk about when and if to create retention policies as one tool for improving student reading proficiency. but long before having to make the difficult decision of whether to retain a student in the early grades, we should have done everything in our power to give that child a good start in

life. to have prevented preventable delight and eliminate the effects of poverty on a child's growth and development, as many other nations already do. to have prepare children for school through high quality early childhood or grants and preschool. to have provided good instruction in every classroom, and to ensure that every child has high quality teaching in every setting, every day. to provide intensive customized intervention to students who are behind. we are used to sing that children are our future, but state and national budgets tell a different story. we have failed time and again to deliver on promises of a child health, early care and education, and level playing fields. instead, we have systems that

can't change the fact that children who are behind will almost certainly stay behind. the current fiscal distress in both the federal government and the state will require cuts in many programs over the next decade, and beyond. how long can we continue to do more with less? this is unacceptable. we can start by putting a stake in the ground around the importance of strong reading skills at the end of third grade. that's the foundation of school success, as students take a more challenging material in the higher grades. we have the first eight years in the life of every child to help him or her get ready for school. thrive in school, and love reading by the end of third grade. the question is, how serious are

we? thank you. [applause] >> usually women have an event like this we like to have some intellectual product sets the tone for the event, and summarize the issues. and so we do something called a policy brief. and we look around for someone who has a lot of knowledge and is brave to write a policy brief and not pussyfoot around and say all, but on the other hand, and this and that, but will come out and make a recommendation. so usually people have been around a long time don't want to do that because they might ruin the reputation, but marty is young and willing to take a chance. so martin west of harvard wrote the policy brief force. we are pleased about that. i think it's exactly what we wanted it, takes a clear position and i think it will end censors discussion during the panel. in addition to being a professor

at harvard in the education department, he's also a deputy director of the kennedy school on education policy and governance, and he's executive director of education, the journal has been expressed -- i know something about marty that is not on any of your papers that describe his background and i don't think you even find it on the internet. marty was a champion high school wrestler. and i had been informed that when he gets in a tight debate, he could put his opponent in a headlock, from which position they can't breathe, let alone talk. he wins a lot of debates that way, so, marty, glad to have you. [applause] >> thanks. ron, for the introduction to not what i expected. [laughter] but brings back good memories. it's a pleasure and honor to be here today. i think we're all here because of the growing recognition of

the importance of early reading proficiency to students future academic success, not just in reading but across all subjects, and in their probability of graduating from high school and going on to college in a successful career. this growing recognition has already begun to inform policy in many ways, at the federal level, the federal governments increase in scientifically based early ading instruction, the obama administration has followed up with his own proposal to put reading first, in its blueprint for the reauthorization of the elementary and secondary education act. of course, though when it comes to the real action and innovation in particular in american education, that happens at the state level so it's interesting to see that 32 states and the district of columba all have policies that are explicitly aimed at promoting third grade reading proficiency, often by requiring that students be early on and

educational careers, and then interventions offer to the students at risk of reading deficiency. and has been a flurry of activity in this area just in the past year, 13 states have enacted or modify their policies in the past, already in 2012. so all this activity is very encouraging but it also raises an uncomfortable question. and the question is, what should be done when those measures fail to occur or prove unsuccessful? should students be retain and provide it with remediation before they move on to great for? or should they be promoted along with their peers? and increasingly, states have been answering in the direction of retention. 14 states now require to some degree of retention for students with low reading test scores and grade three and similar policies are under debate in many other

states currently. these policies vary quite a bit in their particulars, in the definition of what a load test score is, and the extensions they offer, the opportunity states to demonstrate proficiency through other means and what services are required when students, when students are retained. but despite these differences the debate over the policies follows a fairly stable contour from place to place. proponents argue first of all that these policies are largely intended not to increase retention per se but rather to use the threat of retention to create incentives for educators, parents, perhaps even students themselves to meet performance expectations. but they also can be expected increase retention rates and proponents argue, therefore, retain students will benefit from the opportunity for additional instruction before moving onto more challenging material as well as from the improved match of the contents of the creek jump that are exposed to as well as to the abilities of their peers.

the enactment of these policies has not been without controversy, however. and so critics have a response to this post the first of all they point out that retaining students is a costly educational intervention. is students as intended spend an additional year in full-time public education as a result of being retained, then we need to have an additional year of funding for that education. it also requires that students, if they remain in school, forgo a year of earning before entering the labor market, something that needs to be incorporated in the analysis of these policies. these are clear costs. critics also say that there aren't even benefits for the students are retained that would offset the cost. rather they argued the students would be harmed by the trauma or stigmatization of being retained, perhaps by reduce expectations on the part of parents and educators, and said about the cost of adjusting to a near -- new. or. what does the research say? if we are looking simply at the

volume of published research, then we come to a fairly clear conclusion. there's a massive literature of observational studies showing that retain students achieve at lower levels, complete with scorn and at worst social and emotional outcome than observe the summer students who are promoting. indeed, ernest house of the university of colorado in 1989 serving this literature said it would be difficult to find another educational practice on which the evidence is so unequivocably negative. to the extent that all of the studies on a given topic, however, suffer from a common flaw, the findings should not increase confidence in their validity. and when it comes to studying the effects of grade retention, the key challenge is to separate the effects of retention from the effects of other differences between student and other characteristics of students that led him to be retained in the first place. what triggered the retention decision of the most common

approach in the literature to studying this quite a few conference students who are retained and to compare the outcomes to observably similar students, summer in terms of the demographics and in terms of the prior achievement, who happened to be promoted. but i think that the likelihood of selection bias when making these types of comparisons makes the studies quite unreliable as a guide for policy. to give just two examples of what could go wrong when you take that approach commit could be that educators are more likely to retain a student when they see a test score and they know that that score reflects the students achievement rather than simply the fact that the student had a bad day on the day of the test. if that's the case, retain students will be more likely to have bad outcomes regardless of the retention decision. similarly more involved parents may be more likely to appeal a retention decision to the nice thing about essbase promotion policies, whatever their merits as a matter of public policy is that they provide researchers with an opportunity to provide

much more rigorous evidence on the causal effect of retention on student outcomes. they do this because they create a situation in which he of students are very similar, in terms of the reading performance, some are just slightly above the promotional come from somewhere just slightly below the promotion cut off. yet they are exposed to a very different treatment of some are all this is below the cutoff will be retained, some or all the students above the cutoff will be promoted. we can follow the outcomes of both these groups performed was not as a regression discontinuity evaluation that provides and usually strong ability to draw causal inferences about policy effects. this approach to studying grade retention was blinded in some studies of promotion of retention effects in chicago, public schools, and policy in place in the 1990s. and it's been used in a series of studies, some of which i participated in, conducted in the state of florida over the

past several years. the florida policy has been the most far-reaching, the first real active statewide promotion policy, and it since it emerges am all for the states that enacted these policies in in years. so evidence on its design implementation and impact on students is of considerable interest. so what's going on in florida? since 2003 the state has required that third graders scored at the lowest level on the test be retained. i put required, well, required may not be exactly the right word because the rf right of exemption explicitly mentioned in the policy. for example, limited english proficiency, proficient students who have received less than two years of instruction in english are exempt from the retention requirement as are most categories and special education students. students also be built to demonstrate their proficiency on and approved alternative standardized test.

they can also demonstrate their proficiency through a portfolio that is aligned to the state content standards. as the result of these exemptions, i actually think policy and the policy to essbase promotion is something of a misnomer. it would be more accurate to say that a low test score changes the default decision that would be made for the student such the in an affirmative case needs to be made that they're ready to be promoted to the fourth grade. it doesn't, the policy doesn't seem to require that they be retained but it also requires that they receive additional services during the retention year. they need to be given the opportunity to attend a summer reading can't come to be assigned to high-performing teacher, and to receive intensive reading intervention during that retention year. ..

more than fourfold from the number in 02 that shy of 14% of the third graders in florida, initial third graders retained in 2003. as you can also see the number has fallen significantly in subsequent years. most of that reduction reflects a reduction in the number of students failing to meet the promotion cut off while it's difficult to attribute that to the incentives created by the policy definitively, it is consistent with the idea that educators and students in florida have responded to the presence of the policy by improving their performance. so, what happens to students in

florida when they are retained? the most recent research on that question examines the policies and effects on students retain as third graders in 2003 for six subsequent years and here's what it shows. first of all, there's substantial short term achievement gains in reading and math among the retained students compared to the promoted years when the students are tested at the same age. so, for example after two years, two years after the initial retention decision, retained students will be in the fourth grade most of the promoted students will be in the fifth grade, if we compare the performance when tested at that same age, the retained students actually outperform their promoted years by almost half of the standard deviation in reading and by about half of that much in math. this amounts to more than a greater level equivalent of reading, and about half of that amount in mouth. so these are quite substantial

positive effects despite the fact the retain students are graded level behind their promoted peers. these achievements effects, however, free to delete kofi out gradually over time and become significant in five years. this is a common pattern and educational intervention especially those in the early grades to see achievement affects that are large initially but fadeout over time. this is a common pattern even in many interventions that despite the fadeout of test score impacts have been shown to have substantial positive effects on students long-term outcome is. in the case of retention, i think it is especially likely that you could expect to see positive long-term affects because retained students despite the fadeout of the impact are still outperforming their promoted appears in both reading and math score when tested at the same grade level. so rather than compare students

the same age at the same grade level we find retain students doing much better than their promoted pierce. other interesting consequence of the policy that's just emerged recently is there's very clear evidence that retain students are substantially less likely to be retained in later years. so as a result of this, after five years, the retained students are only .7 grade levels behind their promoted peers despite the fact that the initial treatment is to put them a full grade level behind. what you see here is most of that affect comes in the first year when students are much less likely to be retained again in the third grade than their promoted appears to be retained in the fourth grade, those effects in continue for several years after the initial retention decision. this means one of the key consequences of the florida policies to expedite the retention of many students who

would otherwise have been retained in later years when the decisions were being made purely at the discretion of local educators. so what does this mean for policy? i think these results from florida relatively have an encouraging picture, certainly much more encouraging picture than that which is available in the dominant observational literature on this topic and i think it means a few things for policy. first of all, and this is just to acknowledge test based promotion policies are not being presented by anyone on the panel today as a silver bullet solution as the only thing we need to do is address concerns about the early grade reading skills we need comprehensive strategies. in my view improving early grade skills is a priority that will require that states do a number of things including ensuring at risk students have access to high-quality preschool programs and they develop early identification systems and

target struggling lerner's through education and improve the general quality of instruction in their early grades. some of my research actually suggests districts are especially likely to take the least effective teachers and least experienced teachers and place them in too great k through 02 perhaps because of the presence of state testing systems in higher grades and their absence and their early grades. that is the type of pattern that will undermine efforts to address the situation. test based promotion policies are no substitute for that kind of comprehensive strategy to reduce the number of struggling readers. however, test based promotion policies, i would suggest, can be a useful component of such a comprehensive strategy. it to the extent states want to go in this tradition, i think they should keep in mind that these policies are most likely to succeed when they are accompanied by specific requirements for additional reading instruction and adequate

funding to support the implementation of those requirements. above florida affects that we have observed reflected the complete package of the intervention was retention and additional requirements not just the effects of retention on its own and common sense suggests it shouldn't imply in the exact replication of what came before it. if it didn't work the first time, try something different. test based promotion policies also need to balance the desire to allow local educators to draw on their local knowledge of students of devotees to give them to the discretion to make the decision in the best interest of the students to balance the desire with a goal of increased accountability and access to focus support. i think the research and florida suggests retention can be useful more often than local educators often tend to think that it is the case. but, obviously some measure of exemptions need to be included.

i don't think we know exactly the right way to handle that situation yet. finally because what kind of researcher would i be if i didn't include an enthusiastic call for more research i think we need to continue the study of the policies of the long run outcome of retained students as well as on the quality of instruction available to all early grade students. oftentimes the discussion of the policies focuses very narrowly on their consequences for retained students and that is something of great interest, but we also need to understand what is happening to the broad systems in which they are being implemented. so, thanks for your attention, and i look forward to the discussion. [applause] >> okay the panel will come up and we will proceed.

[laughter] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] >> okay. liuzhou the researchers are working on allin machine attached to the chair and when all the panelists, it will grab the microphone and stick on the lapels and we will say three minutes for more discussion. be ready for that. we have a great panel that don't necessarily agree with everything in the policy brief. people have their own views that work on this issue. i'm really pleased we are able to get the quality of people we have on this panel. first is karen schimke, whose early project manager for education commission and the

states have played a huge role in elementary school policy. and she's the author of a terrific brief if you picked up the material on letter of policy. next we have whitehurst with innovation policy committee former director of the institute for education sciences. in the previous white, she did research on reading. so, another appropriate reason for having him on the panel. then we have jimerson from a university of california santa barbara, and a high lee claimed and frequently honored researcher has an amazing background. if you have 15 minutes on the material in your folder. then finally, mary flores the 11th seed was the implementation foundation for excellence in education. wheat or intent on having someone from florida because florida has done so much in this area so we are really glad that you could become and be part of

the panel. our format each speaker will have eight minutes for an opening statement a will get from their share that i'm going to ask questions and then the audience will have a chance to ask questions. we will begin with karen schimke. >> good morning. as i was anticipating getting ready for this discussion, i was reminded of my own experience with reading proficiency. my transistor and i were in the first grade in a small rural town of western nebraska, and i don't think our teacher really understood that there were two of us. [laughter] so, one night my mom pulled out a book and said okay, we are going to read tonight. it's probably october in first grade. so she handed me the book and i read what i suspected was of that era, so i read it, and then she ends the book to carolyn and she looks at the book and says well, i don't read. and i said i read for her. laughter coming and that was the

end of carolyn's journey to non-sufficiency of reading from the absolute end. once my mother came down off the ceiling. my mother was as concerned as any parent would be and as all of the states are about having students reading proficient we by the end of third grade. and frankly, in the journey to the end of third grade moving along in the proficiency pathway. i think we are well aware of what happens to kids that are not reading proficiently are four times more likely than their proficient pierce to drop out at the end of high school. it's pretty clear that in a world where we need well prepared workers and adults, the proficiency is key. i think that the states are concerned about proficiency is especially relevant since we are in an era of the standards and no child left behind, and the renewal of the sea so they are creating a sense of urgency and

clarity that in reading proficiency states mean business. well, press coverage is around retention. widely states have in general not have a single strategy, but have a package of comprehensive interlocking well-connected strategies all of which are critical if we are going to be serious about third grade reading proficiency. in some ways, talking about retention, at least to me, is a sort of shorthand way of talking about the whole package from a much broader package. we have heard about some of the research says about retention. much of the research does not back it up. does the opinions of parents and educators are mixed so research mixed. looking at several research and literature reviews, my take is that there are some differences in which groups of kids have matched other groups of kids in the research that are different at what point the research is done, and for certainly a

non-researcher like myself, and possibly some of you in is from -- no, no, -- >> it's pretty difficult to kind of sort through all this stuff and white noise and say what is this telling us? some research certainly suggests children improve proficiency while others suggest it doesn't make much difference. in a 2007 article in the journal of education for students placed at risk is reported there is no short term benefit. a substantial long-term risk come substantial cost to taxpayers, but because business of poverty is disproportionately represented, there is a question of equity to 80 and i think the questions that have been raised are questions that certainly there everybody's consideration. what is the question of equity? children who are of color, who are ablaze and low economic status are very disproportionately represented among the retain students. likewise the question of cost

and how much it costs to have the retention costs both to the school district during that year and the delayed entry into the workforce. one of the thoughts i had as the states were moving forward and thinking about how they should proceed in this area was i began to wonder whether children who are retained in fact might have a higher possibility of either being bullied. i found one study and the one study talks about not only retained children, but over age children. that is children with entry into kindergarten delete as children that are retained. they found a fare difference between the potential for bullying and being victims and bullying. it's an interesting article that appears in the journal applied school psychology by the preliminary study of the victim behavior and another potential hidden cost of retention of the

late school entry. i called the authors by the study to find out if there were other studies and there weren't and were they going to do any more studies? they would love to. guess what, it's about money which again, is a common experience. so great retention is a costly strategy. i think far more costly than providing the kind of early intervention, early - education that is so critical and in general is a part of the state strategies. our emphasis has certainly been on the early identification and intervention and when we talk about early identification, i think so often in this business we talked about in kindergarten may be first grade or second grade we would talk about it in 3k -- pre-k and those of us that

work and pre-k know that in the classroom teachers know then when things are going to be problems for children. and they know not so much because the child is or isn't reading in prekindergarten, now they know because they can see how the child manages their executive functions and manage waiting their turn, sitting still, being a part of the classroom discussion, working with other kids come interacting with their environment. so, we are putting out -- ecs is putting out for the fifth of literacy documents in the next bit, and it's going to focus on state policy should focus on as a road map. it's going to have the components of such systems and a section on the classroom and school activities. systems is brenda look of the design and implementation, system oversight come on the assessment of an effective and immediate intervention.

asserting to deal with classrooms is going to look at the redefined adoptive capacity, teachers, principals, superintendents, what they have to be like, with the have to be prepared to do in order to really provide being advocated the kids need. the second is the vigorous and engaging curriculum, and finally, a partnership to families. and i think we could spend this entire day talking about the role of families and partnership with families as decisions are made about the third grade reading proficiency. we take this concern states have and schools and families have very, very seriously. states are taking steps, taking action on this and we think that is appropriate. i think the most important thing, however, is that this is about early comprehensive interlocking strategy no simple strategy could possibly lead to the kind of outcome by itself.

thank you. >> thank you. very nice. [applause] your watch works and everything. >> please to be here. this is a topic i've been in the reading war for a large portion of my career. i want to first congratulate you on bringing in rigorous piece of research in this debate. it does raise the level of evidence that's relevant for what we're talking about and i could spend my remaining minutes talking about research methodology but i will avoid that temptation. >> a good decision. [laughter] >> chongging to kick up a notch. what is this a debate about. 25% of youth in this country do not graduate from high school

and let me describe to you a conversation that i heard a few years ago a young woman who graduated with honors high school here in the district of columbia. she had gone to solve very state college and she was dropping out i can't pass the courses. we of 25% of students who don't have the skills to dredge wheat from high school. we have a lot of kids graduating from high school with a meaningless credential and that it does not signify that they require the skills that made them ready for the world of work or further education so we have a system that is massively failing. what are we to do about that? are we to promote students socially all the way through the system were we to give college degrees based on social

promotion because people with college apollo will do better than those that do not have a diploma - and not. so the question is when is the system to be made accountable giving students the skills they need to succeed in life. nearly all of the research on the issue of great tension and social promotion focused on the particular court of students who are affected by the policy. use all that the presentation of research today. you will see it in the larger literature and for the students that are retained what is the consequence the next year and the year after. that is an important question, but i think the larger question is what is the effect on the system as a result of retaining those students.

imagine for a moment the irs function and auditing your taxes. but imagine there is a new emphasis on offshore bank accounts and we heard about add that in the news and the people but are caught the have to pay a lot of back taxes and front page stories about it and questions about it will almost surely the affect of that is people that have those offshore accounts are talking to their accountants and backing off of that tax strategy imagine enforcement of the driving while intoxicated the police is and be out in force we can do studies that look at the effect of these policies on the people directly impacted by the policies that is if you are caught drunk driving what happens to you later on you might find a certain consequence. the real question is what is the effect of the people who are

exposed through observation for this policy. there are hits in this light marty put a band of the policy brief the school systems in texas and parents and kids are responding to the policy as you and i would if we knew we were doing something like we do have a negative impact. we are doing better, children are less likely to fail the third grade as they were in the past we don't know if the florida policy is causally connected to that, but there certainly is a suggestion that it might be. i think if we desperately research that looks not only of the impact that the treated, but the impact on those that were coming along that, the attack on the whole system and its ability to provide the quality preparation and learning to read. i will say one of the things i

have learned doing work in this area but as a researcher and as a federal official in the years is we really don't know yet how to accomplish this task will. if you look at the reading scores on naep have been essentially flat for 20 years. if you look at studies that examine the impact of accountability systems, you will see sizable impact on mount suggesting people in schools and teachers are accountable for the research and math they do things and know how to get kids better and you find little to no effect on reading. the federal reading first intervention which was a massive federal attempt to inject scientific based instruction in reading and beginning grades and the large federal evaluation for that for which i was responsible found no impact on reading

skills and so you can expect some impact on a thing from well implemented school retention policies coupled with early identification and better intervention but i would say we still have a way to go in understanding how to take children who start school and starting school kindergarten or even 3k substantially behind the skills and abilities that predict later reading the teddy very and the letter and sound recognition. we still don't understand well how to enter the command provide instruction that is regularly and predictably going to get those children on the grade level by the end of third grade. by the end of the retention is is an important pressure point on the system convinced it can

produce positive benefits for kids if it is part of a better intervention policy but i also think we have had a way to go in terms of understanding how to get the task accomplished. i think what we've learned from the presentations today is the piece of a very important puzzle that we got to would solve the nation's interest as soon as possible. thank you. [applause] >> it's great to have you on the panel. >> thank you. as i began to express and share thank you to the brookings institute for inviting me to precipitate in december to discussion regarding reading and retention policy and practice with a particular emphasis on what is best for kids, and i say that because i have spent my career investigating and advocating what is best for

kids. i want to begin with that as a preface by showing your handled but more engaging principal of activities here, by a show of hands how many of us are engaged in a scholarship to help children learn in school? ashura fans have many of you are engaged in scholarships? how many of us ordered the involved in the school level developing policies to help children learn? at the school level we have some folks here fantastic. how many of us are directly involved with educating children at school at least once a week? fantastic. all right. and i know there are many others that come from various backgrounds and have various motivations to be year. but for the sake of in the spirit of voting common you're going to refuse to vote no matter what questions i asked? [laughter] i appreciate your honesty. all right. i'm here today i am compelled to

continue to advocate for children to help emphasize the importance of using science to inform policy and practice through advancing of the social and cognitive confidence of children. during the past 20 years of carefully reviewed 100 studies examining great retention that has been completed during the past 100 years. this includes all available published studies as many as many reports visas products which are not ultimately published in the journals were the books and such. in addition to hundreds of studies regarding specific intervention strategy five also conducted numerous investigations and studies and analysis directly related as well as public that an analysis of studies examining outcomes is as to get it with great retention we share the comments i've prepared based on the collective experience is. it's only about 480 seconds i

would simply make three brief points for your further consideration. in a question how many of you have already held the lead in ... examine the analysis of great retention by a show of hands? how many of you have already been immersed in this? fantastic. that is a great place to start. all right. the first point, the empirical evidence fails to support the effectiveness of greater retention. among over a thousand analysis of achievement and adjustment of comes during the past 100 years there are few that reveal significant positive effects associated with a great retention. in the hand of that is provided, you see the summary of affect sizes yielded in the met dialysis and we don't have time to run the analytic process and such. note that none of these results of any of the matter analysis -- meta analyst.

you can look right there i'm not making this stuff up. the short term gain for instance during the repeated year and possibly the following year are occasionally documented as it has been noted. long-term effects in middle school and high school are either neutral and deleterious. furthermore, great retention has emerged as one of the most powerful predictors of high school dropouts. in addition a part of the discussion today is the focus on reading and retention. it's notable if you look carefully on that hand out of the negative effect sizes for reading are among the highest in the two of the three meta in all this is detailed in the handout. but over a thousand in losses from over 75 years of research specifically captured in the meta analysts, the negative effect on reading actually borders significant in the sense that you are upwards of .4, .5 in terms of the effect. ..

in chicago, coley said dennis. each of the analyses i have personally reviewed addressing this florida context have not. why is this important? because the previous analyses that did include both revealed the summer school yielded a favorable effect, whereas the

retention did not. this id of coupling this and making the case for retention plus is not well found within the and. literature, hence the statement that the analyses of the florida context conflate grade retention and several other supported interventions. more over as related to the first book, the florida legislature reversed of a comprehensive program for student progression. this is their section 1825, a bunch of subsections. comprehensive programs, with many of the other components included in this comprehensive program are empirically-based and laudable. the retention component is contraindicated. is anyone familiar with the 2009 book that reviews 800 mad at analyses and includes a rank ordered 138 specific factors associate with student achievement? anyone? okay. it includes factors at multiple levels, student home, teaching director, school.

this is the book you're actually. that comprehensive review reveals five factors associated with negative effects of the 138. retention is one of those five. retention is placed at number 136 of the 138, followed by, would you like to guess what number 137 and number 138 our? i think we can all agree 137, television, and 138, mobility. our associate with the facts with student achievement. retention was number 136 followed by television and mobility. consider the research during the past 100 years the evidence clearly indicates that we must move beyond grade retention and social promotion. by a show of hands how many are you aware of specifically supported interventions to help children learn at school to promote reading, math, science, social skills? fantastic. the second point, the are numerous extensive studies that

document effective interventions specifically facilitated development in areas such as reading mathematics and behavioral adjustments, some of the core elements. they must focus on interventions that build upon the strengths of students and target their needs. attending to the empirical evidence informing targeted interventions with specific challenges within specific context. these include individual, classroom, and school district level strategies. you can see the head out, i've listed several of them and reading interventions and summer school and ongoing formative evaluation are just some of these. also just for examples. i'm to the third point. one more participation portion. how many of your confident current policies will promote student learning and success at school? who is confidence the policies are there to make this happen? one person, very good. the third point is policies that

emphasize specific evidence-based interventions to promote the academic success of students are essential to meet achievement standards. about 15 years ago secretary of education richard riley highlighted that, oh, taking responsibility for ending social promotion means ensuring that students have the opportunity and assistance they need to meet the challenging standards in the eight years prior to that decision being made. indeed it is imperative that policymakers, educators and others focus on the important question, the question is not to retrain -- read 10 or not to retain. the question is not to retain or promote. the question is how to promote the social and cognitive confidence of the student. more specifically, given the individual and contextual consideration upon identifying individual needs, what specific evidence-based strategies will be a limited and monitored an

effort to address the means and to facilitate the development and academic success of the student. as i briefly highlighted today, considering the collective evidence is imperative that we move beyond grade retention and social promotion, instead we must implement policies and practices predicated on empirical evidence linked to promoting learning outcomes. thank you for participating, and considering these three points a plotnick. >> -- [applause] spent other than that, how did you like the policy brief? [laughter] mary laura bragg. >> i don't get an introduction? i already introduced you. >> what do you want me to say? mary laura bragg, a famous person from florida. spent i am the cleanup hitter. thank you for the opportunity to be a part of this discussion but i was on the team that wrote

florida's policy, 1008.25 as you pointed out. i was the person responsible for implementing it in florida. i am a high school history teacher and i have witnessed firsthand the vacant stare of a 10th grader when that student is asked to read out loud or discuss something that they have read your i've been the recipient of victims of social promotion. our foundation, the foundation has worked with many of the states that have in the past year work to tackle this problem of k.-three, pre-k-three reading. the foundation data reaching dropouts to third grade reading skills was not around when governor bush and the florida legislature begin crafting this policy. we did crafted around three points of research that existed in the early 2000s. that 75% students reading poorly

at nine years old would continue to struggle throughout their adulthood. that 80% of kids identified with a specific learning disability are struggling readers simply because they have not learned how to read. and the work that was published in the 2000 national reading panel report. so the policy we created is pretty simple. our law requires prevention and intervention k. through three. retention for third graders who aren't ready to handle the text required of them in fourth grade and the other an additional intervention for retained third graders. so three basic parts. schools must begin notifying parents in kindergarten if their child has a reading deficiency and is therefore at risk of retention in third grade. schools must build individual reading plans for those students aimed at removing that deficiency, and we notice in the

first 30 days of kindergarten i can talk about what we do letter c. wide in pre-k, but can say that for the discussion. third graders in florida scored the lowest, the lowest level on our state tests are retained unless they meet a good resume chin. one of the things i would point out is any student him any special education student in florida who takes the state test is subject to the policy. so there are already a significant number of students with disabilities are subject to the policy. the only ones who are exempted are, they don't take the state test or if they been previously retained. and then if you retained you get incense and intervention. our approach works. i saw in the four years that i was in charge of the policy and i went back to teaching after i left the department, a sea change in reading instruction in grades k-3. i wiki some examples of impact on human behavior that we saw. for several years before we

enacted this policy, our assessment office had a pot of about $2 million we had a lot of students in florida to $2 million for reading diagnostics, k-3 reading diagnostics of assessments. and districts to purchase basically receive those tests for free. it was a state of procreation. and every year, maybe a quarter, a quarter of that money was drawn down in the first two years of the policy that money was gone by september. that is human behavior changing. we also before the policy would get periodic requests from district for professional development, random profession developing in reading. in the first two years of this policy the requests were tenfold. they were specific. we want professional development on whole group, small group instruction. we won on data-driven instruction. we want on specific interventions aimed at specific deficiencies. and the number of calls and e-mails we got from parents

asking for help and the number of calls and e-mails from community groups asking how they could help skyrocketed. the data that is included in your package shows the impact of the policy. retentions increased at first, but they declined because the number of students reading at the lowest level on our state test declined. the other thing i would like to show, well, there's a chart in your head out, the retentions in kindergarten, first and second grade decrease because it was a k-3 policy. our goal was not -- [inaudible] our goal was good, strong initial instruction in grades k. through two and three, and then intervention as a way to stop retention. but the last resort of retention was, retention as a last result was the goal. to me, when a principal realizes

that he has for years to ensure a child is ready to move on to fourth grade, and that the parents of his children will know in the first three days of kindergarten that the child may have a reading deficiency, the school is going to organize around reading. we saw the best teachers in elementary school moved to k1 into. the sea change in making sure that schools organize around what they need to organize around, it's kind of a shame to me that the threat of retention is what got elementary schools doing what their primary focus is, which is to teach kids how to read. our data shows that the last chart in your package shows that even in 2011, our policy is to working. with mortgage reading on grade levels, -- and our fourth grade,

even, that chart is broken down into subgroups and every subgroup outperforms the national average. this is also to speak to african-american and hispanic students. a number of the florida third graders scored at a low slope has declined by 41%. as a percentage of african-american and hispanic students going at the love has declined by 37, and 46% respectively. and regarding come one less thing about special ed. we look at 300 of our lowest performing title i schools from 2003-'04, 22009-10, and we found a percentage of third graders identified with the specific learning disability was cut in half. during that time period. and the percentage of first graders who were identified with a specific learning disability was cut by 75%. that was huge. i think that if you fund your priorities first to get to costs, and i would say we spent

a lot, time talk about costs of retention and nothing about the costs of dropouts and the costs to the country in health care and the lost earnings and students who drop out, i think that that is an important void. and if you fund your priorities first, you can prevent the additional cost of retention in later grades. so thank you. [applause] >> very good, thank you. great panel. i'm going to try to deal with three things but i heard our people in goddess who would like to be gone by lunch so we will deal with these in an expeditious fashion. racial discrimination assessment plans and then we'll deal with this research issue about which doctors disagree, which is what you just and on this panel. so let's talk first about racial discrimination. my understanding is that the recent study from department of education says that there is a

disproportionate impact on blacks and hispanics. however, if you adjust for achievement scores, the disparate impact disappears pics we have more black and hispanic retained but if you manage on their test performance, then it's the kids have the lowest test performance, and since blacks and hispanics have the lowest test scores, they are more likely to be retained. does anyone disagree with that or is there other evidence that this policy has a disproportionate racial impact? >> i'm not sure that we can agree with everything that you said, or establish it definitively at the national level. so we know that black and hispanic kids are disproportionately likely to be retained at the national level. that comes out of some data collected by the office of civil rights of the department of education recently. we can't take that same data and do the type of adjustment for achievement that you have mentioned. what we can do is look at florida what's happened to black and hispanic students where you see similar patterns, been more

likely to be retained, but if you control for their actual reading scores, then they are less slightly to be retained. so in evidence we look at discriminatory implementation, you don't see it. but i'm not sure that we can establish that on a national basis. >> does anybody think this is racially disproportionate and unfairly so? >> in terms of why it happens or that it happens? >> let's leave the y. si. we don't like policy. if it unfair discriminates against any group can but especially the group, the very groups that have the most trouble in our society, blacks and hispanics. if this policy of grade retention were to unfairly retain kids on bases other than something a ball like a tennis court or a teacher assessment of something like that, then we should be opposed to the policy. i think the first thing want to

establish is is there evidence this policy is unfair to any groups? >> when you say unfair that sort of a loaded question, but is it gets proportional use? yes. >> is it effective? >> no. therefore, are we exposing a certain underrepresented disproportionally disadvantaged population of our youth to this particular, as demonstrated in effective strategy? yes. that's the answer to that question. >> the answer is yes, because do you think the policy hurts everybody who was subjected to -- >> i didn't say that. you said it hurts everybody who subjected to a. but again when we are at population statistics, the type of analyses we've all completed that have been some have called into the longitude at time but in general i'm speaking about interventions which is the same as if you do a reading intervention. rarely are you look at the single individuals, your

template at 100, 200 or 1000 to certain effects based on your population statistics. i don't want to be put in a position where i've been suggested to say every single child is -- >> i withdraw. that's not what i meant. what i meant was this policy, according to your review of the literature and a lot of other people, too, not just you who feels this way, that retention in general add some harmful effects, not that it harms every single individual kid, but on average it does have harmful effects. so even if you have more blacks and hispanics subjected to the policy, which is the case, that is true, i think anyone denies that. and because the policy does not help them and hurts some kids, it's likely to have disproportionate negative impact on them. that's your position? >> yes. >> okay. but that's not because anybody intends for more black kids and more hispanic kids to be heard in some way. it's because they made a mistake

in a judgment about the effectiveness of the policy. so we come back to the main question which we will return to in a minute about what the evidence shows because which doctors have got to be called to account year. okay, the assessment plan. i'm aware of a lot of situations where assessments are lousy. how serious is the assessment here? can we identify kids who don't read well? and can identify kids who do read well? are the test useful? even if we have a test not necessarily everyone uses them. to have to caution states or school systems about, the post they take? i assume it would not be just test. they would be other elements as florida has like teacher evaluations and what did you call it, a portfolio of evidence about whether kids should be promoted? how big a problem is assessment? >> it's not a problem. a variety of tests of reading skills, i can show your

correlations between reading skills at the end of first grade and 10th grade performance, single strongest predictors of 10th grade performance. florida has a good assessment system among the best in this area. so when you're talking about the classification of individual students and whether a student just on one side of the promotion versus retention mine has been reliably identified, that is a different issue. there's air around the cut point. but in general the assessments are good and a concerted discriminate between good readers and poor readers. and let me say in response to your previous question, that the discrimination here is a provision of education to minority and disadvantaged kids, that is of low quality. believes and damaged for life and i think we need to focus on

that. as the discrimination that we all should be ashamed of and do something about. >> i just want to say a word on assessment. assessments say in first grade are different than assessments in kindergarten or prekindergarten. one of the things and talking to a colleague it was pretty much an expert in assessments, recently come he highlighted the fact that it's not only which assessments are used evidence-based nationally norm and so forth, but when they are given and where they are given. and that assessments can very young children that are given before they've had a chance to act like to the apartment, that is too early in the kindergarten or first grade, will be less reliable. what the candidate is over identify kids with need, maybe that's not bad because then they get some service, that the truth is it may waste service dollars. >> there's agreement on the panel and no one is disagreeing so far that we do have an

assessment testament and the states could design a very reasonable way to identify poor readers. so leaving aside the issue of whether they should be retained or what should happen because we have identified them and we have to have -- we all agree on that. >> one comment about assessment, assessment, and thank you, i think florida has a very strong assessment system as well. the key is the next step, what the teachers do with the information that they get, and the need for really good professional development for teachers to understand what the data about a student shows. and then how to attack that deficiency that is there. that is key. because assessment by itself is not going to -- >> correct me if i'm wrong i think a lot of testimony people agree that the test identifies a poor reader is not necessary a diagnostic test. it's not necessarily useful to plan a program intervention for

acute, right? but all i'm interested that if we can identify poor readers if we have a special treatment for them. that is not a big issue. i suspect it might be an issue in some cases because states and localities might not do it exactly right, but anyway, we can do that. the final questioner, this is one of about which doctors agree. this happens all the time and social sciences. i think not to try to bring some resolution on this. we have a stark difference here, some say you should not retain. it's bad but on average, and the average say it produces positive impact is nil and that's based on over 100 years of research and meta-analysis and so forth. than a policy for even, marty claims that the florida evidence shows that it can be part of a plan. so first before i ask the question i want to see if we can reach some kind of agreement here that i think there may be more agreement than meets the eye. we are all in agreement i think

that if a school system really wants to attack this problem of reading, of insufficient reading, or by the early grades, that they need a multiple part strategy and definitely should increase -- include preschool education, diagnosis, extreme and so forth. there's a lot of agreement about how to do this. positioned the policy brief is that as part of that multiple part plan that retention makes sense. and that goes in the face of a lot of evidence. so what's the resolution? how can we resolve this difference foreign on these people is not going to read three or four or 500 studies of meta-analyses. this happens when you go to policymakers but researchers don't agree so what's the policymakers supposed to do? what is the answer? >> cannot try an analogy? get on my feet so this may not work out. i'm not an epidemiologist, but

my guess is that coronary bypass surgery is strongly negatively predictive of health outcome. if i can. people have a coronary bypass operation to everyone else in the population. my guess is that that still holds true even if you match the people you're comparing, based on their cholesterol level, based on some measure of their heart strength. my guess is that if you did a meta-analysis of that relationship, it might even be 136 out of 138 of the many relationships we can study in this type of meta- analytic way. that doesn't mean, that means that you should do everything possible to avoid the situation in which you might use coronary bypass surgery and you might be exposed to it as an individual. but that does not tell you that for the people are exposed to it, that it causes their worse health outcomes.

and in order to answer that question would have to set some, that some sort of situation where a researcher to take people are equally likely to be exposed to the intervention that we are interested in, some of which get it and some of which don't as result of essentially chance. we can't randomly assign students to be retained or not to be retained, but we can take advantage of the situation that i discussed created by these test base promotion policies to compare students you are exactly similar, save for the fact that they scored one point differently on the state reading test. and that provides unusually strong opportunities to make causal inferences, and none of the other research that is reviewed in these studies comes anywhere close to that level of rigor. and so, in my view we should pay attention to the highest quality

of this, which include studies of chicago and of florida, and not turn to the larger, older and in many cases outdated literature. the only other point i would make is that -- >> wait, don't leave this is because shane is unsure want to respond. shame, respond. [laughter] >> there's a lot of elements, and with all due respect, the idea that we're going to embrace and isolation the regression discontinuity analysis, which frankly the articles that have been published relative to the reports that have been generated have gone much further in acknowledging the fact that it's not looking at, it's not looking at retention throughout, throughout this article we refer to the treatment under florida's policy as retention if only for the sake of brevity. understanding that, it's conflated with so many other

elements that it's just shameful to pretend that it systematically examining retention. now to be fair, i acknowledge and embrace, and, frankly, most of the analyses i've completed have been regression, utilizing longitudinal studies, prospective longitudinal studies, granted they are not experiment the randomized design which we both know is not going to happen and is not plausible, but, so i applaud the initiati initiative, and it's not to say that marty is the first was not to put them on the spot but i applauded the initiative of those who have utilized the regression discontinuity analysis in an effort to obtaining samples that are able to be examined subsequently. so i applaud that. however, i take issue with the ongoing rhetoric about isolating, isolating causal effect, it is suggesting it

links to retention because it simply doesn't. .. although i'm a bit, i'm much more ambivalent for the need for further research. i suppose having been at

this for 20 years i'm at the point how about we attend to the last 100 years of research before continuing to advocate for further research albeit my point that we haven't historically been attending to it. i'm not willing to dismiss the literature that is very multidisciplinary in nature, very, multimethod, an array of statistical procedures when in fact we always need to look forward and advance the science and look forward to that analyses being done. those are some of the key elements i believe distinguish our perspective. >> someone dying to say something. i will give russell the last word. >> one of the things i learned as the director of the institute of education sciences where we have the responsibility for vetting research on what works in education is pay no attention to meta analysis because garbage in is garbage out. what you need to do is look

at the methodlogical quality of studies and what can be reasonably concluded from them. frankly, 98% of the research in education that has been conducted over the past 100 years does not meet a metho methodlogical standard that allows any reasonable conclusions about what works. so i would certainly privileged in terms of conclusions in terms of about policy the strongest methodlogical research rather than the mass of research that's been conducted. >> i think what we can conclude here is that the florida policy, which had many elements, had at least, for a few years a positive impact on kids in florida and probably a systemic i am pack on the behavior of the

system and people responsible for getting kids to learn. whether the policy with a same label would have a similar effect in north carolina i don't i don't know. it would depend on the details. that's why we need particular research and research tied to particular policies. it is hard to make conclusions about met at that analystic conclusion after 100 years of research about a particular policy that has seven different elements different than used in any other particular research. again there are always differences among researchers. it's hard to, hard to resolve those differences unless you just believe me. >> by the way, let me see if i can summarize one thing here i think picks up on a very important point you made, that russ clearly agrees with. you can not single out any element of the florida policy and say this cause the effect.

it's the whole thing. even design analyses to examine that. it is possible. it hasn't been done to date. yes. so i'm not agreeing -- i'm sure the audience here is wanting to know what kind of resolution here and from the florida study, we could not conclude, okay, anybody disagree, say so right now, we can not conclude that grade retention per se it an effective policy. what we can conclude is that grade retention as part of a broader policy can have positive effects, the whole thing taken together. you couldn't single out any one element, correct? isn't that what you're -- >> within that context that is what the analyses have yielded although i would take the position if you implement reading interventions and such without the retention policy that i would, based on the historical evidence looking at effectiveness of direct reading instruction, continuous progress monitoring formative assessment you would yield

positive effects. >> this i know for sure. we will never be able to answer the question because we're not doing the experiment. unless you're dying we'll get to the audience. >> i'm dying but agree with what russ said. the best meta-analysis will systematically document which studies have high quality based on what parameters in a very similar way what has been done in in the what works clearinghouse in a sense you review a lot of studies and end up identifying what are the control parameters, what is the degree. each of the high quality met at that analyses i have seen actually report that i have seen with the meta-analysis you would need to look at that level of detail. we agree we can't look at a single study in isolation but we also ought to look at relevant strength. >> i was wrong. you get the last word. make it quick. >> i don't think we should try to separate the pieces and parts of the policy.

the pieces and parts of the policy are prevention, intervention and retention, and based on student performance in florida it has made a huge difference. >> go ahead. >> if i -- >> that was very short, thank you. >> and if i had put the title together for today's session it would not have been retention. it would have been third grade reading proficiency, for the same reason that mary said, they're inseparable. the second thing i want to say, if you look at the document in your folder about all of the states and you look at state policy, you see a wide array of things where a state will have a, b, c, d. some other state will have d, e, f, g and so on. the states which some people say are the, kind of the basic place where stuff happens, have done lots of different things and most have not been studied. >> okay, questions from the audience. someone will come around and give you a microphone. let's have a succinct

question and succinct answers. right here in front. tell us your name and ask a question. >> i'm missy worthheim i'm with the naval postgraduate school. you may wonder why i'm here. my mother was a pioneer child psychologist interested in the brain. i want to ask you about the linda bell system. if that was available in schools early on, my granddaughter did it and it made an enormous difference, what would that cost and is there a way to do it? are you familiar with it? >> i am but it has been 10 years since i was at the state level but until a broader context we, we put out requirements as to what had to be in a good reading program and we left things, we left the purchase and the

decision to use that up to the district. that gets kind of to what marti said about some distribute's ability to make decisions based on the needs of their kids but from a state policy perspective, we were very specific about research-based programs and not market research because every program that came out in the beginning of the 2000s had a stamp that said reading first approved and there was no such thing. i am familiar with many of the programs but costwise i can't speak to. >> question two, back to the right. >> for children who are victims of violence and bullying and the attendant, intense summer perhaps and class should the schools and the state be more compassionate on them and

what do you recommend? >> let's have a quick answer. what are we going to do about bullying? >> quick answer. >> catch the bullies and throw them off a cliff. >> teach them how to read. >> teach them how to read. that's it. that will solve the bullying. next question all the way over here on the left. >> yes. thank you. miriam rollins, investing in kids. one question about the florida study. is there anything in the study or any other research that gives us the answer to absent retention, or is there any evidence that retention made a significant contribution to those outcomes? >> relative to the full package. >> relative to summer, increased teaching and intervention and all the other things that florida was doing that sounded really great. >> so it's not something

that we can address definitely for the reasons we just discussed. we don't have data, for example, take up of summer school, the extent which students were being assigned to highly effective teachers. many of the additional requirements were later expanded to all kids in the grades. for example, one of the requirements that they have one consecutive, what is it, 90 minutes a day uninterrupted extended reading period. those were expanded to all students and shouldn't be just retained and promoted students. one of the things we look at is different effects in reading and in math. and in all of the additional interventions were targeted towards reading, specifically. yet we still see some benefits in math. and so that makes me think that there may be some independent effect of retention itself but there is no way to say for sure. >> so the answer to your question, no.

right there in the back on the left. right there, yes. >> hi, tom schultz, with the chief state school officers. i have a quick comment and a question. among the things that can be done in terms of enhancing reading proficiency seems that retention is one of the most expense is things you can do. to illustrate the data from florida, costs more than 10,000 per child we're asin the pre-k program they're currently spending less than $2500 per child. the cost of that is hidden. it didn't get debated in terms of is this a good way for us to spend public dollars when we increase the percentage of kids who are retained. the question is, looking at the data that mary provided the concern i have is, that in spite of this ambitious effort in florida, over the past seven years, according to this data, there's been

relatively little progress in reducing the percentage of third grade readers at the lowest level. you're kind of between 18 and 20% for the last seven years. where the schools have been going at it as hard as they could go. so what would people on the panel recommend? what next has to be done? what else has to be done beyond what's been done in florida. >> great question. >> thank you. >> one thing i would say just to go back, we have a fair amount of literature and research now on the impact of high quality prekindergarten. and florida has had a prekindergarten program for a quite a number of years. like the rest of the states around the country the quality vary as good bit and lots of kids are not in pre-k. they're in lot of other child care settings. barbara talked before about meet owe kerr settings. if you look at the national education research and so forth there is a mountain of evidence of pre-k and.

>> you're saying that the evidence shows high quality pre-k can make a huge difference? >> high quality pre-k and lifelong differences. >> his question is more and higher quality pre-k? >> that is one answer. >> could i jump in? >> yeah. >> i think what we've learned now from 15 or 20 years of, of a full bore effort in terms of learning what it takes to get kids to be able to read is that we know for the first time how to systematically get children to break the reading code and so the problem of children not being able to sound out words on a page because they don't know the alphabet letters, they don't know what sounds they make, we now know how to do that. we don't know yet how to get all teachers to do it but we know how to do it. where things fall apart, and i think this was the lesson of reading first, where things fall apart is where we get to reading

comprehension. >> yeah. >> and reading comprehension depends on more than being able to sound out words on a page. it depends on knowledge of the world, a lot of content knowledge, a lot of vocabulary knowledge and we're not going to get kids to acquire that, that knowledge based entirely on, you know, three hours a day in a good quality pre-k program. it will take a broad level, early intervention, to give kids and continuing series of interventions to give kids in disadvantaged circumstances that knowledge. absent that knowledge, they will have a lot of trouble reading. so it is pre-k, and it is prepre-k and family related programs and it is continue us and, you know, i think rather than focusing on high quality pre-k as a rubric, we should focus what is happening in pre-k programs, specific interventions that are most likely to help children cross this crucial -- >> i gave russ 10 dollars to

make that little speech because on october 2nd in this very room we are going to release the next future of children, entirely about literacy and exactly addresses the issue you just mentioned. yes, mary. >> i like to make a comment to your comment. i, first of all, our pre-k program has only been in place since 2005 so we're just seeing, 506, we're seeing, students and in third or fourth grade. there is not enough data to draw any conclusions there. we too are hopeful it will make a difference. i would disagree that we haven't seen a decrease in a steady decrease in stichbts reading at the lowest level. we've seen many kids move from the next to lowest level to grade level and above. so i think that, i will continue to say that it has definitely made a difference. and to wrap in the point

about is our retention policies unfair in terms of race, the numbers show that our african-american and hispanic students have benefited the most from this policy. for whatever reason they were not, they were struggling readers, they have benefited from intervention and retention. and yes, they were more, likely to be subject to the policy but, they were also more in need of the interventions that they received. >> one more question. on the right here. couple rose up. -- rows up. thank you. >> director of the early education initiative of the new america foundation. i want to say thanks for airing a lot of this. i think this is very important conversation to have. i'm frustrated, probably others are in here too, to deal exist the fact that this is a package of intervention and prevention and retention and, yet the

fact that we keep calling it retention as the answer. one of the things i'm wondering is whether there's, any, maybe now it is just theoretical, anything to just the simple threat of retention that is adding to the ability for the interventions to work? and if that is what people think might be happening here is there a less costly threat to be using, less costly to children, perhaps if in fact we're seeing some other research negative impact of that? so, thank you. >> this is an interesting question and, and in russ articulating the threat or motivation component of it i think this warrants further consideration. notably, i don't know the precise answer to your question but i have a reflection is that there have been multiple studies historically that looked at childrens perception of

grade retention as a stressful life experience and there's been multiple studies that have been done ultimately when they look at a list of stressful life experiences children historically, prior to the florida, chicago context, had already been indicating that when they report their perception of grade retention and 20 other life experiences, that grade retention has been as stressful from a child's perspective by sixth grade as going blind and the death of a parent. okay? for those who would like to know how stressful it is for a child's perspective to go to a dentist that is usually 19th or 20th on the list. relatively speaking grade retention as suppressful for children. motivation from a child's perspective i see it as children perceived this historically, when we focus a lot of energy today on the achievement component and we're not talking so much about the social, emotional

consequence, the long term implications associated with that either, which i would believe and advocate are equally important as we look at the development of a child over time so we're promoting social and cognitive confidence of the child, not simly academic achievement. >> karen? >> clearly one of the issues that come up, question of retention heightened awareness made everybody serious about this achieved urgency. there has to be more than one way to achieve urgency. i think one of the challenges for all of us in whatever roles we have in life, does setting targets aurgency? does public commentary how we've done on the targets help with urgency? so on, so on. we need to come up with a way of achieving urgency rather than thinking a threat is the only one. >> yes? >> two things. my husband i know who is not watching refers to himself as a academic red shirt. he was retained later in

elementary school and live with me while this was going on he said if this only happened to me earlier, but the other, the other point i would make is, again back to human behavior, the increase of parents, the number of parents who, you know, teachers always say we wish we had parent engagement until parents get engaged. that the fact that parents in, parents of kindergarteners were saying i want to know what it is i can do, i want to know what you're doing with my child. that was not happening in third grade. that was happening in kindergarten. the thought that a parent would not find out until the end of third grade that their child had a reading difficulty, that is educational malpractice. they should know as soon as we know. in some instances pre-k. and so, to your issue of the threat of retention, i, i certainly understand having had to deal with it at a

high school level, the threat and the impact it has socially. i again will bring up what is the impact of self-esteem on a high school dropout? i think that warrants as much consideration in this conversation. >> please join me in thanking the panel. [applause] invite you if you haven't gotten enough about literacy, come back on october 2nd. thank you. you've been a great audience.

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] >> which is more important? wealth or honor? >> honor. >> not as said by the victors now years ago, the economy stupid. it's the kind of nation we are. it is whether we still have the wit and determination to deal with many questions, certainly economic questions but certainly not limited to them. all things do not flow from wealth or poverty. i know this first-hand and so do you. all things flow from doing what is right. [cheers and applause] >> look at what's happened. we have the lowest combined

rates of unemployment, inflation and home mortgages in 28 years. [cheers and applause] look at what happened? 10 million new jobs, over half of them high-wage jobs. 10 million workers, getting the raise they deserve with the minimum wage law. >> c-span aired every minute of every major party convention since 1984. now we're in the countdown to this year's conventions. watch our live gavel to gavel coverage, every minute of the republican and democratic national conventions live on c-span, c-span radio and streamed online at c-span.org, all starting monday, august 27th. >> a live look from the james brady press briefing room inside the white house where press secretary jay carney is scheduled to take questions from reporters at 11:30. today is the president's first day back at the white house after wrapping up a three-day bus tour in

iowa. while we're waiting a look at some of our other coverage here on c-span2. each day this week at 6:00 p.m. eastern we look back at some of the year's luncheon speeches from the national press club. this afternoon we'll hear from meteorologist jim cantor reon his twenty five years covering the weather. tomorrow, filmmaker ken burns on his documentary on prohibition. each day at 7:00 we show you interviews from our q and a series with the focus on the u.s. military. tonight historian, antony beevor talks about his work, the second world war he talks about hitler's invasion of poland to the aftermath of the war to its global impact on major powers of the day. over on c-span today, at 1:00 eastern watch live coverage of remarks from sister mary hughes, pass president of the leadership conference of women religious which represents more than 80% of u.s. nuns.

sister hughes is expected to address recent criticism from the vatican that the group has undermined catholic teachings on all male priesthood, birth control and homosexuality. >> while we're waiting for press secretary jay carney to arrive for the briefing, we'll show you some of your calls and reaction to a new poll out about registered voters who say they're unlikely to vote in the upcoming election. >> from yesterday, the no votes. that is how many americans

could vote in november but likely won't. they're busy, fed up and disillusioned. this woman, 19 years old is one of them. they could turn a too close to call race for a landslide for president obama obama by definition they probably won't. call them the unlikely voters. nationwide "usa today" suffolk university poll of people likely to vote but unlikely to do so, find the stay at home americans back obama's re-election over republican mitt romney by two to one. two third say they are registered to vote. eight in 10 says the government plays an important role in their lives. even though though cite a range of regions declaring they will not vote or the odds are no better than 50/50, they will. they're too busy. not excited by either candidate. their vote doesn't matter and nothing ever gets done any way. let's talk to the director of suffolk center. he joins us from boston. >> guest: good morning.

thanks for having me. >> host: why aren't the people saying they're not going to vote? is it too busy or something else? >> guest: it is a combination of reasons. we polled unregistered citizens and we also polled people who were registered and many of whom who voted in 2008 but just said they weren't voting. the unregistered voters used expressions like, i have no time, i'm too busy, 26%. my vote doesn't count or matter, 12%. i'm not interested in politics, 10%. or i just don't want to, 10%. among those who were registered, their preferences were somewhat similar. the top answer was, it is my right to vote or not to vote, 1%. i don't like either candidate, 12%. again my vote doesn't count or matter, 12%. this was an open-ended, so the responses that people gave us in this nationwide poll were their own words. they created their own cat goirrys in this question.

>> host: in the "usa today" story there is this sense not voting become as silent statement. >> guest: i think i would agree with that because many of the questions around voting, people were fairly astute on. we asked a question, do you think that the process of voting is easy and quick, or difficult and more involved? and nearly 2/3 of respondents said it's easy and it's quick. so it is not a process issue. these are people who understand that it is easy to register to vote. they understand that process isn't that complicated but their disdain for politics, the economy, is, taken its toll on many of these respondents. 19% of the respondents in our sample were unemployed, over double what the reported unemployment rate is. these are people really injured by the political

process and the economy. >> host: unlikely voters polled supported president obama over candidate mitt romney over two to one. so what do campaigns do with this information? >> guest: not sure. the obama campaign has, this survey has kind of identified a treasure trove of supporters. as you say, he is inwithing with two to one. people, when we ask if they like barack obama, they say they like him. they dislike mitt romney. it is not an issue of persuasion for the obama campaign. we always talk about the ad war, this ad, and that ad. these people are pretty much predisposed to voting for obama but what is trumping it, again, so many other factors and so much of the negativity such that even though they kind of like barack obama, they're still, they're still disillusioned so much, and injured so much

by the process and the economy that they're not going to vote. >> host: david, many of these voters, over half, called politics corrupt and only 39% could correctly name the vice president joe biden. give us more of a snapshot who these people are. >> guest: these people are younger. they're, they are lower income than the general population. slightly higher minority. slightly more, or slightly less educated than the general population and a little bit more religious. the 39% biden number was surprising because a pew study also had it fairly low but above what we're showing. and that again reinforces what we believe is the disconnect here. and, there was also sort of a component in the poll that, i think didn't get a lot of mention and that is the

desire for a third party or multiple parties. 53% of respondents said they weren't happy with the democratic and republican parties to represent views of americans. 53% basically say they want third parties or multiple parties in one of the questions we asked. you can see there's a desire for something else. >> host: 7% said seeing hillary clinton name on the democratic ticket as vice president alongside president obama would make a difference. >> guest: this is an unbelievable finding. we asked the question, after they, they basically gone through half the survey, is there anyone who, if they were to announce for president, or as you say, beyond a presidential ticket, we think that the, there's a correlation there, who, who would motivate you to get

out and vote? 7% said hillary clinton. she was by far the top choice. most people, couldn't think of a name right off the bat. and i think that's, that's very telling because what it is suggesting that this poll basically is examining those people who are quote, in the political woodwork. they're not coming out of the woodwork. their behavior has been defined as not voting. but what they're saying is, if she were on the ticket. if she were a candidate for president, they would come out of the woodwork and, and they would vote for her, specifically. i think one respondent who was cited in the "usa today" expose' of some individual respondents across the country who were interviewed, she said, i would not only vote for, i would only vote for hillary clinton, i would be out there and would be the first one in line at the

polls. >> host: you mentioned their predisposed not to vote but what is their pattern? are they people who voted in the past? have they never participated in the civic act of voting? >> some have, some haven't. 2/3 hadn't indicated that they voted in '08. and what we found was that there is a disproportionate amount of people in our sample who are democrats. now on the surface you may think, well that is a democratic poll but it is actually the reverse. what that is saying that the people who are out of the voting pie, are disproportionately more democratic than republican. so, as i say, the good news for barack obama is, there are people here who could make a difference. the bad news is, that there is a disproportionate amount of people who are registered democrats, versus registered republicans who are more likely to vote and therefore not recorded in this poll. and so that's potentially a

problem for the democratic party. >> host: finally, i'm reading a headline from the baltimore sun. the pennsylvania voter i.d. law survives a legal challenge. the state judge upholds the gop-backed measure. they do plan to appeal. voter i.d. laws, how do voters talk about that? are they concerned about being disenfranchised at the polls? >> guest: you would think so but they are not. three quarters of the people interviewed basically said it was good idea to show i.d. when voting. i don't think the subset of respondents, perhaps is aware of some of the issues that have, sort of bubbled up in different states and in different counties across the country with the, with people being disenfranchised, but, conceptually, these respondents, again, they don't see a structural issue to registering to vote or

even with a voter i.d. law. they were overwhelmingly supporting a voter i.d. so we know it is a behavioral item holding people back, not a logistical one. >> host: david is director of suffolk university political research center. we're talking about a poll suffolk university did in collaboration with "usa today" about likely voters. >> my pleasure. ask. >> host: what are you planning to do about this? larry in mississippi. >> caller: i definitely would be voting. >> host: have you voted in the past? >> caller: yes, i have. >> host: what would you say, 90 million people, americans not likely to vote? >> caller: i think it is all how you ask the question. to me if you had asked those people where you show the republicans saying they put

these suppression, these laws, suppression laws to keep people from voting, in order to keep minorities and elderly folk from voting i wonder would they say about that? if you ask them a question, what do you think about the laws that the republican have to suppress minority votes and elderly voters i wonder what would be the answer? you have a nice day, ma'am. >> host: we'll see what james has to say from minneapolis. unlikely voter. hi, james. >> caller: how are you doing? >> host: good, how are you? >> caller: i'm fine. i just wanted to say, i've been a voter since i was 18 years old. government was my favorite class in high school in my senior year. become involved in the political process and even as a older man i register people to vote. you know, prior to the 2000 election. which i had my heart broke

because, -- [inaudible] didn't dictate who was the president but also electoral college won it but the fix was in. florida which was -- [inaudible] presidential candidate was the deciding factor in that. if you ask around. i think that is an issue. i see the dynamics which romney couldn't possibly win this election with him not being able to win a majority in the female community, minority community. and the elderly community. with all the demographics against him i think the media is trying to make this race closer than what i had shut be because i fix again is in 2012 like it was in 2000. >> host: go to another caller. if you like to join the conversation we're looking for unlikely voters to give is a call at 202-737-0001. everybody can call us at 202-737-0002. look at comments coming in on our facebook page.

briana writes and this is extremely unfortunate and the bogus voter eye die laws are not helping at all. debbie says, what a shame. that's part of why we're in the mess we're in. that and people mind lessly voting and. money in politics is another part of the story and shameful. from maryland. >> caller: can you hear me? >> host: we can, leslie, go ahead. >> caller: there is a rush song, basically if you don't vote you have made a choice. i'm an african-american women, and a lot of people fought hard for my right to vote. so i feel it is a civic duty for me to do that. i was convinced by my hairstylist several years ago when i was young to actually vote because of that reason. and i think that is a good reason. so, there you go. >> host: leslie, do you have friends or family members who you're trying to encourage to vote just like somebody in your hair salon

did for you? >> caller: no, i think they all vote actually. i think they do. >> host: let's go to another maryland caller. annapolis, pari, unlikely voter. hi, perry. >> caller: how are you doing? >> host: good, thanks. >> caller: i don't plan to vote. and the reason is our government and our congress and our president, it isn't working and it is in crisis mode right now in terms of their unwillingness to solve the nation's problems. i, you know i'm very concerned and i have just give up on both the parties and they just seem to be fighting over who is going to get the good disand more over, i think money in politics and financial industry and the corporate money and the rich people have just taken over the government. and it is, it is, we have to get some new arrangement because the way it works now, neither of these guys are going to solve our problems. and anyone who think that is

the, you know the current president or the, or romney are going to solve our problems ought to forget about it because they aren't going to do it. the country is in trouble and these, and the current setup isn't working. >> host: what would change your mind, perry? what would get you out there? >> caller: nothing. this is long-term, the party situation has gotten worse. the polarization has gotten worse. and, the future of america, flat wages for the last 30 years. we're in big trouble and unless things change, major transformational change, you know, this country is doomed. >> host: let me ask you one more thing, perry, before we let you go. would it bother you if you don't vote, because you're letting other people elect the president? >> caller:, well, i can't decide what other people do. i'm deciding what i can do and i've been retired and had some time to think about this and read about it and my view is, we're in very

serious trouble and the current governing, the governing ruling class in america is failing us. and we've got to do something about it. >> host: okay. let's look at this "usa today" suffolk university poll. here is one of the questions. which statement come closer to the way you feel about not voting in november? 50% agree with this statement. it will bother me because i will be letting other people elect the president. 41% said, it won't bother me because my vote doesn't make any difference anyway. monte tweets in says if you do not vote you're undermining democracy. it is a cowardly way to state your objection to a dysfunctional system. houston, texas, otis is a voter. good morning. >> caller: good morning. i'm calling in regards to the voter i.d. law. >> host: okay. >> caller: you know, what gets me is, they have to have i.d. even in mexico. and we, that's a third world

country. and the blacks in this country are being brainwashed by the obama administration and eric holder and, really ridiculous. instead of trying to enforce voter laws, look like they trying to encourage fraud and stuff. so i will be glad to vote and get barack obama out of the white house because he is really taken, he is taking this country down the drain. >> host: let's look at the question of voter i.d. laws. the story we mentioned headline a few moments ago in "baltimore sun". pennsylvania voter i.d. law survives legal challenge. this is another one from "the wall street journal." judge allows pennsylvania voter i.d. law to proceed. a judge declined to block the state's voter i.d. law from taking effect saying opponents would likely be

unable to show the law violates the state constitution. this republican-backed measure requires pennsylvania's 8.2 million registered voters to present a state approved photo i.d. such as a driver as license at the polls said they planned to file an appeal thursday to the state supreme court. legal ex the exerts say it is unclear if an appeal would be ruled on before the nerve election. they say it same being poor and urban voters and otherers more likely to vote for president barack obama and other democrats. "wall street journal" says, voter i.d. victory. chalk up another one for voter i.d. laws and representative politics with a different opinion though. "the new york times" says, it is a missed chance to reject voting barriers. that is the headline there. on "the new york times" op-ed is. pennsylvania judge elevates the republican ballot

restrictions over fundamental rights. we can talk more about this on the program this morning. we're asking you today, why don't people vote? if you're an unlikely voter give us a call at 202-737-0001. everyone else, at 202-737-0002. what keeps you away from the polls. trish ha in oak creek, wisconsin. >> caller: i would never vote for republican because the republicans are strictly for the rich. i can't vote for obama because of his morals. >> host: tricia, does the vp selection on the ticket make any difference to you? >> caller: yes. >> host: and so when you look at vice president joe biden, congressman paul ryan, does that impact you at all? >> caller: i would never vote for ryan. he, i could never vote for him. he is probably a nice young man but he is just totally for the rich, like i say. but, if, mrs. clinton was on,

yes, i would. i would vote for obama. >> host: how come? >> caller: because i was for mrs. clinton, from the beginning. i was every in for obama. >> host: if she were on the ticket with president obama you would think about supporting that ticket? >> caller: yes. >> host: okay. jim tweets in and says, voting is a right no one should ever be strippedded of. ken, an unlikely voter in harrisburg, pennsylvania. had you, ken. >> caller: how are you? >> host: we were talking about your state and the decision by the judge yesterday there to stop the block of pennsylvania's voter i.d. law. >> caller:he, well the voter i.d. law, you know, in a way i support it and in a way i don't. i do support it because it confirms that a person is from where they're at but, do they really need a photo i.d. to confirm that? some i.d. should be required but, does it have to be a photo? that is my problem with the

law. >> host: so why are you an unlikely voter? >> caller: you know, seems like truth and honesty is gone from the political arena. sensational system all that comes in. like biden recent remarks about chains. why is not the media focusing more on the substance of -- >> we're leaving this journal segment now to return to the white house briefing, getting underway. >> how are you? >> doing well. >> hello. my team, right there. welcome, everyone. to the white house, for what has become a less frequent briefing here from the podium as we spend a lot of time on the road. glad you are all here. very nice to see you. i do not have any announcements to make so why don't we go right to

questions. ben. >> thanks, jay. two topics. addressed the question about governor romney's comments on anger and hate and the campaign that the accused the president of running. i want to ask and follow up on that and get your thoughts from your conversations with president about whether he thinks the tone of the debate is the right one? whether it is befitting a race for the white house and it is helpful to voters? >> well, sure. let me say a couple of things. for those of you who were out with us in the last few days i think you heard the president speak frequently about incredibly important substantive issues. substantive issues on which we have policy differences with the pub push -- republicans. we talked about drought relief and the need for congress to take action on a comprehensive, long-term

farm bill. something that republicans have blocked. we talked about the vitally important need to extend the wind energy tax credit. that it has bipartisan support, that the industry has made clear, if not extended, could threaten up to 37,000 jobs in the united states. and, it is part of an overall vision for all-of-the-above energy future that the president has put forward on a substantive policy level, again and again. and thirdly, he spoke about medicare, and competing visions a policy and a program that affects 10 of millions of americans seniors. that's what the president talked about these past few days. i took this question in a different way yesterday. i noted that having covered a number of presidential

campaigns myself and other campaigns that there is often a point at which one side begins to distract attention from the policy debates by suggesting sometimes without foundation, that there's another story that y'all ought to pay attention to, and that is invariably because that side is losing the policy debates. we are focused on, the president is focused on the issues that matter to the american economy and the american people. i think medicare is a perfect example. what we have seen since late last week, early this week, when the ticket was for the other side was filled out, was this, initial announcement that there was a desire for substantive policy debate. once that substantive policy

debate focused on the critical issue of medicare there's been obviously a desire on the other side to change the subject. >> they are talking about medicare as well? >> i think medicare is a very important issue. the president thinks it is a very important issue. the president's affordable care act, according to the aarp, an independent voice that seniors value and take seriously, strengthens and protects medicare. according to the aarp, the republican plan, the ryan plan, the romney plan, undermines medicare. you know, we, think that is incredibly important. the president believes strongly we can not, we must not for the sake of our seniors turn medicare into a voucher program because the congressional budget office said if you do that, seniors on average will see costs

rise on average by $6400 per year. that is not the right policy. those are the kinds of issues the president is out there talking about. and that is what this campaign ultimately is about and will be about. and there are always going to be distractions and both, you know, inadvertent and deliberate but, in the end the american people are focused on the economic issues principally that affect their daily lives. that is what this president is talking about. >> the, thanks the other topic i want to ask you about not getting as much attention in the campaign the violence in afghanistan. black hawk was shot down, seven american troops killed. we've seen more cases recently of afghan troops firing on american service men. more than 220 americans have been this year in afghanistan. does any of this give the

president concern about the stability of the afghan government, of the country there and does it affect his thoughts about the american presence, even though the war is winding down will still be there for another two years? does it affect his thinking about our posture there? >> let me start with the helicopter. isaf announced that a isaf helicopter crashed today in afghanistan killing three seven american security forces, and interpreter. my investigation the cause of the crash is still under investigation. our thoughts and prays are with those american and afghan families who lost loved ones in that incident. more broadly, on the matter what is called green on blue incidents it is no question these incidents are deeply concerning and our hearts go out to the families that

love lost loved ones in those incidents. secretary panetta has spoken about the steps isaf is taking in afghanistan to make sure our servicemembers are as safe as possible. we can both meet mission requirements and ensure the safety of our forces of the as i have also said, ben, it is important to remember that, well first of all our relationship with our afghan partners is strong and that every day our forces fight alongside afghan forces. there are now about 350,000 afghan forces and, we partner with those afghan forces on 90% of operations, and while the, whenever there is a so-called green on blue incident it is concerning and the fact that there have been the number of incidents that you mentioned is deeply concerning. it is also important to put it in perspective. more broadly the president's

policy in afghanistan was after his review predicated on the principle that our goal, our principle goal for being there is to go after al qaeda, to eliminate al qaeda and those who threaten the united states from the afpak region. in service of that overarching goal we have helped build up afghan security forces, helped stablize portions of the country, and we are in the process of drawing down our forces as we turn over more and more responsibility to afghan security forces. >> quick follow-up? >> let me get some others first. thanks. >> i want to ask you about situation in lebanon where the been violence this morning. -- spilled over from syria. is the president concerned

about the more regional [inaudible] has it affected his decision or plan how to proceed? >> well, we have said for some time the longer president assad stays in power and the longer he continues his assault on his own people the more likely it becomes that we will witness a broader sectarian conflict that can spill over syria's borders. we have repeatedly said we're concerned about this conflict spilling over into other countries in the region and destablizing other countries in the region and that is why the way to prevent it from happening is to bring about the political transition that the syrian people so deserve and desire. as for, i think, in terms of the president's view and his policy, i think this development reinforces what he has been saying, that we

can not, that those people and organizations and states that continue to support assad and need to recognize they are on the wrong side of history. it is unquestionable that the momentum in syria is with opposition forces and that, and with the syrian people and that assad's, will not be a part ever the future in syria. we've seen that a series of high-level defections, another indicator of the fact that syria, that assad's hold on syria is loosening. and we are taking action with our international partners to further isolate assad, to starve his regime of the resources it needs to continue to perpetuate this violence against the syrian people and at the same time we're providing substantial humanitarian aid to the syrian people as well as

nonlethal assistance to the opposition. nancy, and then jake. >> going back to the, that anger and hate accusation for a moment, when we asked the romney campaign why he would make that charge, they cited not so much the things that the president has said on the stump but things that have happened by the campaign and from the white house, things like, you and the campaign refusing to condemn this outside ad about the steel worker's wife, and the connections to mitt romney. that someone on the campaign suggested that mitt romney might be a felon for the way he ran bain capital and also the vice president chains comment. are you ready to condemn any of those things? >> first of all let's go back to the obvious attempt to distract attention by focusing so much of your attention on an ad that never ran as i understood it. >> it did -- >> inadvertently according

to a press report and a stationery record. that stands in stark, stark contrast to an advertising campaign behind which there is millions of dollars endorsed by and paid for by the romney campaign that is built entirely on a fiction about the president's policy and that's his policy on the work requirement necessary in welfare reform. you know it, everybody in this room knows it, every outside expert on this issue has declared that the advertising campaign on welfare reform is false. just false. factually false. and yet, there is all this attention on an outside ad, again, has barely run. i think that you know, that, there are plenty of third party ads out there that, that are in support of governor romney that, allege certain things that are