>> yes. sometimes reminded of comment to say that, to understand the world you must understand a place like mississippi. that being said, we lead the state's electronic voting for overseas military. afghanistan, iraq, kuwait as well as hospitals in germany at the request of the department of defense. the military today is in or dispersed everywhere, all the services are interspersed. the navy is in with the army. they're all over and we very difficult times in getting mail to those people. department of defense have an expedited voting process with a mark the ballots, but still military very rarely gets to vote in our country. in fact, they are percentages are less than half of everyone else. mississippi law allows for electronic voting to come back to the circuit clerks in our

state, at which time it is opened, placed in an envelope and placed in the precinct ballot box. we think that is critical. it is so difficult to find people o on a standing anymore that can receive mail. i asked hundreds of servicemen and women, whether or not they like the process and whether they were concerned as to the security of electronic voting each and every person in each and every one of those countries said they did not. they just wanted their ballot to count. therefore, i would propose to add to the end of that sentence, and the utilization of electronic voting where -- >> that was my question. >> where allowed by state law. >> the chair rules that's a technical amendment. doesn't need action. is there a second to that amendment? discussion? yes, sir. >> i want to just see if the secretary of state of mississippi would accept a friendly amendment. i know exactly what is getting

at and i wholeheartedly agree. i think what he means to say is electronic delivery of ballots. some people are calling for voting of websites which are hackable and subject to security -- the sending of the pdf. we accept that amendment? >> i will, chris, thank you. >> mr. kobach, would you be kind enough to repeat it? >> mr. kobach has been recognized to state his amendment. >> the word voting should be struck and replaced with delivery of ballots. >> okay. so on your sheet, and it's on the screen, strike voting and insert after electronic delivery of balance. >> there's been a second to the. secondary amendment. any discussion? on that clarifying amendment. hearing none, all in favor say

aye ago. all of those? that amendment is adopted. we are now back to the main amendment it as amended i mr. kobach. any discussion on that amendment? all right. it's already been seconded. all in favor of the amendment as amended by mr. kobach they aye. all oppose say no. that amendment is agreed to. and i believe that's it for the voters. is there anything else in the voter section? okay, we are going to leave that section open. >> mr. chairman, if i can enter a? >> we will leave that section open up until -- you haven't worked out? >> i believe so, sir. i just wonder if we should bring down to have it printed or if i can -- we think we can change it to we recognize that having a

physical verification of the voting process is the best way to ensure a fair election. >> please repeat that. >> we recognize that having a physical verification of the voting process is the best way to ensure a fair election. >> but hold on. what does that replace? >> that replaces, that replaces, it takes out paper ballots are. >> and everything else stays and then of your original amendment? >> correct, including madison. [laughter] >> you are really angling for my vote, aren't you? >> yes, sir. >> and is that now accurate on the screen? is that blue? okay.

>> that is correct. >> this is a secondary amendment to mr. kerby's primary a minute that he is offering on his own. it's been seconded. secondary amendment? >> right here. from oklahoma. just on that last change having a physical verification of the voting process, is that what we want? or physical verification of the vote? >> yeah, that's good. that's fine. spent mr. chairman? >> hold on. we now have mr. kerby. will give you one last shot at this.

are you incorporating that now as part of your amended amendment? >> i take that as a friendly amendment, yes. >> rather than have a third amendment are you incorporating that? is that your new amendment of? >> yes, sir. >> taken fully your amendment, which is now on the screen. >> we recognize that have -- yeah, we recognize having a physical verification of the vote is the best way to ensure a fair election. and then the madison thing. >> is there a second to the substitute amendment by mr. kirby? >> second that. >> it's been moved and seconded. any discussion on the technical amendment? mr. cawley? >> thank you, mr. chairman. jim golick, pennsylvania. my question to the maker of the amendment which tends to be this. who received the physical

verification of the boat? devoted themselves? if so, does that not enhance the possibility of vote selling. all right process ever addresses their question for the try with an address that. did you are mr. kerby want to answer that question? >> well, i mean, i believe it's answered the second part. all parties are represented as come up serving the county of ballots, that it's, it's meant to obviously, the, to go to whoever is counting the votes, who ever is verifying the count. >> speaking through the chair, governor colley. >> how does then the individual

voter know that the vote has been verified at the verification is going to a county, could not possibly know how the voter has voted? >> mr. kerby. >> well, in nevada we have sequoia machines and different outcome as you do your vote, then they print out something that you can look at and verify. but i know that's not the way it is done in every state. what we are trying to do years just get get to the principle of saying we don't trust electronic voting without a paper backup. and so i guess maybe we should take some more time and massage of this a little bit to try to come up with the best way to let us, to convey that it is a philosophical thing and we're not trying to dictate procedure. the philosophical idea that we don't trust electronic voting

without a physical backup. >> all right. here's what we're going -- secretary state, do you want to clear this issue up to see if we can act? if not we're going to pass this by and give you one more shot at and then we're going to have to act speak i think we can verify. the machines do not allow the voter to take the piece of paper. they roll a piece of paper underclass and then it goes into a box that is attached to the machine picks i don't think this language could be misconstrued as allowing the voter to take the receipt of balance. many states like ours prohibit taking a camera so you can take a picture of your ballot because that's not what a selling vote. i don't think that's a real problem but i would just ask that the staff corrected grammatical error in the final sense. it shouldn't be we support that. it should be we support the policy that. i think this is fine as it is now.

>> okay. mr. kerby, you are going to incorporate that technical amendment, mr. kobach got into your substitute amendment that is now on the screen, correct? >> we strongly support the policy, yes speaks of that is now your new amendment. is there a second to that amendment? okay. called on. to get this in front of us, mr. kerby is now making his substitute or second degree amendment, as identified here on the screen. and that is the amendment, the secondary amendment that we're not going to act under. is there any more discussion on that amendment? [inaudible]

>> all right. a question has been called. all in favor say aye go. all opposed, no. the question has been called. the question is now on the adoption of the second degree amendment that is on the screen offered by mr. kerby. all in favor of that clarified a minute say i ago. all opposed, no. the clarifying amendment is adopted. we spent a lot of time on this. we are now back to the main amendment of mr. kerby d. with paper ballots, ballot integrity. it is fully on your screen. is there discussion? we've got to just a few comments and act. >> yes. as secretary of state of mississippi i support the amendment that we have a written ballot on our machines. we do have paper ballots that verify. however, i would encourage mr. kerby and tell him that in each

instance over the last four years we have had zero instances of our machines being incorrect, and they've been verified i technical people in each and every election without problem. while i do support the paper verification the justice department has waved that for some of mississippi cities. we've taken quite a lot of time to go back and verify the machine count, and in each and every instance they have been accurate. so while i do agree that we have a paper, and i will support this amendment, i disagree with the philosophy that it is inaccurate in the machines. >> okay. mr. bopp, was there any discussion on this issue? >> no, i think this amendment is consistent with the approach taken by the subcommittee. >> okay. further discussion on mr. kerby's amendment? governor cawley. >> thank you, mr. chairman. jim cawley, pennsylvania. i think it's important for us all to recognize that the

sensitivity towards voting was raised as a result of vote count in the presidential election of 2000 in the state of florida, which by the way where paper ballots. so the suggestion that paper will be the answer to any problems regarding the counting of votes, i have some concern about as the secretary of state of mississippi just i think very clearly pointed out, time and time again these electronic voting machines have been proven to be accurate. we all, i would hazard to say, conduct most if not all of our personal finances and banking electronically. as such, i would just be weary of any suggestion that the solution would lead to absolute integrity of a vote count. thank you, mr. chairman. >> okay, thank you. >> thank you very much.

i just want to make one comment about the voter verified paper audit trails. there is a professor at johns hopkins, the university, that use the diebold voting machines come if you can find on the internet, and he hacked into the system and changed the vote on a voting machine. and that is why the voter verified paper audit trail is such a big issue in many states that use electronic voting machines so that you know your vote is counted in certain ways, and that there is a way to go back to check the vote and not just get the recount button on the electronic machine. thank you. >> okay. any further comment any further discussion on this amendment? we need to act. yes, ma'am. last comment. >> [inaudible] >> we cannot figure. see if you can use -- >> call to question. >> moved to second on the

question be called on con-seventh amendment. all in favor calling the question say i go. all proposed? the question has been called to the question is not in the adoption of the enemy. all in favor of adopting the amendment? all proposed? okay, independent of that year, the amendment is adopted. -- in the opinion of the chair, the amendment is adopted. that closes -- >> governor mcdonnell? >> yes. >> i had submitted a late submission of a amendment to this voter integrity section regarding vote by mail. protecting the integrity of the vote by mail ballot. >> okay. >> the body does not have. we're putting it right on the screen but it was just handed in by the gentlelady from washington state.

>> all right. is it being handed out? and it's going -- >> it was just given to us. we're going to but right on the screen. it's up there right now. >> yes, mr. stearns. >> [inaudible] >> okay. this is page four, line 17. after ballots. is it after the word balance? >> it would fall underneath with the additional amendment was

added. it would fall in that same paragraph at -- in, in the adopted version. think it is immediately after the like which of the a minute that we just adopted. so we will go -- is that the end of that section? >> it appeared to be after line 17. and it could easily fall anywhere in that section, as a separate topic, only to assure that the vote by mail states -- >> okay, let me just take page four, line 17. it is now on your screen. this is after the new language that which is adopted about electronic delivery of ballots were allowed by state law, which will be i believe at the end of

line 17. so this is new language being offered. that leverages highlighted on the screen spent i would suggest it would fit better after line 13, because it really does not reflect necessarily the military ballot, but all ballots cast by -- >> you've drawn it up to me after line 17. that's your amendment. i may, technically. >> technically it would be more appropriate after line 13. >> it's all new policy so we will adopt that as a clarifying amendment. do you have anything else you want to say to explain your amendment? >> yes. washington state and oregon state are both completely vote by mail. when the ballots were cast there is no, first, the ballots are mailed to every registered voter. so some people may not intended to vote. some people meant -- may not be capable of voting so their ballots at large.

as you know we've had recount in washington state, and those recounts have been based on the fact that boxes of ballots have appeared inexplicably and unexplained in larger urb areas. voters in rural areas are completely disenfranchised, and there's no way to be certain who cast the ballot. there's no way that you can protect the integrity of a vote by mail ballot. unit even certain if the ballot arrives at the auditors office, is actually cast in your name. and so i would suggest that there is, the voters have no protections under a vote by mail. and we can't assure the integrity of the ballot in either oregon or washington. and i'm concerned about it. so that's why i inserted this language to oppose vote by mail. >> a second to the amendment be adopted, so it is properly before us, discussion. >> mr. chairman?

>> mr. kobach? >> may i offer a tactical change? i think what the gentlelady from washington means it's not though by no because that would encompass absentee ballots that virtually every state has but i think she means all mail election. it's a technical word, but it's important because not all ballots cast by mail are problematic. >> i think that's what she means your. >> yes, that's exactly what i mean. the state that are completely vote by mail. where they have adopted no physical casting of ballots. spent the changes he made on the screen. please make sure that's what you wanted. >> is there a second to that clarifying amendment? all in favor say i? all opposed, no? the clarifying amendment is adopted. we are now back to the amended amendment on vote by mail for essentially only those states that are all mail election but

how many are there? there? do we know? washington and oregon. >> make it a national trend. >> discussion on the amended amendment. mr. walker. >> mr. chairman, russ walker, state of oregon. this is a huge problem in the state of oregon. we have had thousands, we've had research done on voter integrity in the state of oregon. it's difficult to get records. they are quickly destroyed by many of the county election offices, and what we have been able to verify, problems, is usually one address were hundreds of ballots go to one address and we cannot find them. unfortunately, it's difficult to verify because the county elections office is in those counties are very partisan and

the records are quickly destroyed. i know this is something that is moving to other states. this discussion in other states about going to vote by mail, all vote by mail systems, and it's just very difficult to monitor. so i support hold and ask the committee to please support this amendment. >> okay. this is merely come and appear to me to be a statement of principle and raises the issue it's risky but there's no call for action here at all. mr. bopp. >> i support the concept of the amended. i have no idea on the last line what she means by ballots must be considered at large. what is at large refer to or mean? >> governor mcdonnell, i would be glad to respond to the at large means that ballot is mary of -- is mailed to every voter.

so there is ballots in mailboxes throughout the state, as you are well aware. those mailboxes may or may not have the correct person. those ballots could easily be picked up by whomever, and i feel like that the ballots are at large because we do not know the intention of the recipient of the ballot, whether that's the correct voter and whether the ballot is available for, you know, to be politically manipulated. and so i just feel like the ballots are not secured. when you go to pick up a ballot at a table, you check your name off on the piece of paper, and the person verifies on your identity prior to casting the ballot. not every person that receives a ballot intends to vote the ballot, therefore, the ballot is loose and available to be picked up for political purposes. it at large.

>> okay. i'm going to suggest this on that. at large has other meanings and other places in different states. and it seems to be at least there's some sympathy to the concept and the risks that are intended. but right now we're talking about two states. i think if we're going to actually act on those why do we try to make sure that the language is exactly right. so i'm going to recommend that we bypass this for now. mr. bopp, would you talk to ms. dye and just discuss this and get this in a clear form, especially if it's going to be some call for action as this is a statement of principle, which is fine. but if that's not an objection to that which i'll discuss this and we will come back to that? >> thank you for giving me the time. >> i think that is the last item then, is that not come in the voter integrity section? by the way, i'd be delighted to announce the department -- the justice department approved

virginia voter ikea yesterday. [applause] -- igs blog yesterday. >> okay. i think the next one i have is, that includes a voter integrity section but we will leave that open for purposes of ms. dye amendment. the next and i have is con-18, is that correct? >> that's correct. replaces con-one. >> mr. chairman, i would just like to point out to the group today that this was the first amendment submitted and i was using the first draft of this section when i submitted it, and there was some moving around of sections, and this actually deals with the fourth amendment which is on 86, 17. i would ask everyone to get out one-a and right in the page number and line number, page

six, line seven because with the appropriate place they should be taken up and i request that the chair bring this con-one a. back to the floor. >> so it is drawing to a different section. then we will defer action on that. i have no other amendment at this time, the section captain first amendment and our first freedom on page four and five at any other discussion on that section? then that section is closed. page five, line 15 the first amendment, freedom of speech. i have no amendments to that section. >> mr. chairman, i've just submitted an amendment for that section. >> all right. then we will leave that section open and pass that by this time. page five, line 26, the second

amendment, we have mr. galassini from new mexico has amendment con-three a. >> thank you, mr. chair. rocky galassini from new mexico. i have submitted one and i thought perhaps it might have been lost so i submit it again so you have to in front of you, con-three a. and one-seven which can be combined. >> hold on just a minute. let's take a look at those to make sure let me get those both in front of me. three a. i don't have one-seven.

are you asking us to take these up together? they are drawn to the same section after the words firearms. do you want us to consider both of these? >> yes, sir. >> all right. hold just a moment. [inaudible conversations]

>> okay. we're going to take up 3-a first. >> thank you. line 32 after store firearms, i'd like to add this also includes the right to obtain and store ammunition. >> just to confirm, on that screen doesn't show what 3-a is? this is 3-a by itself not including 17, is this correct? >> yes, sir.