protecting us from those awful arabs lurking in the middle east. if that's so, then the possibilities for fundamental change appear to be quite small. for what would be called, what would be called for is a set of different institutions and a very different type of culture. personally, i doubt there's much chance of that. america is, after all, what it is. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. ..

>> nancy sherman, what do you do for a living have? >> i have the glory as job of being a professor. i teach at georgetown university, and i was at the woodrow wilson center as a scholar so occasionally i write books in my time off to write books and i talked to veterans and soldiers about going to war and coming home. islamic what is your connection to the naval academy? >> i used to teach at the naval academy for two and a half years i was there inaugural distinguished chair and ethics. they had a cheating scandal, and can they are in the nine limelight being near washington and needed to brainstorm about how to teach ethics so they called me in.

i taught ethics for three years at georgetown, for 20 years, have some of that before a at yale as a graduate student. they were surprised there were people teaching ethics as part of the curriculum. so we modified the course to talk about character and war and with shipman and marines. was fascinating. it was an absolutely fascinating tour of duty. >> what's your educational background? >> i went to a remark college, prada women's college in pennsylvania, and then i have a degree from the university of edinburgh, second home you might say scotland. then i came back and i went to harvard, i have a ph.d. from harvard. >> and what? >> and philosophy.

and then after harvard i started teaching at yale, i was has as yet professor of philosophy, then i came to georgetown with a sense of the naval academy here and there. >> what did you learn -- was this your first exposure to soldiers when you add to the naval academy or had you been exposed to them before? >> it's an interesting history. i love that year of vietnam had a brother and a husband at age to serve in vietnam but in one case graduate school deferment, in my husband's case, and then another case, my brother was for medical reasons not eligible. and that was, as you know, a momentous historical moment on college campuses in the late 60's, early 70's. it was an unpopular war and

given that there was conscription, it was an especially on popular war. so, when i went to the naval academy, i ended up serving, as i like to say, public servant next two colonels who had -- marine colonel's who had been in vietnam. navy captains. so, my formative years came back to me, but now as individuals who had been there as opposed to those who had been in the mall washington protesting the war. but also it came back to me and probably the most significant circle for me is i gather a world war ii veteran who was a medic and he was of an iconic generation and when i showed my

head professional credentials now and had stripes my dad took an interest and began talking about the war. as the brother that was the most wonderful thing that could happen. he opened up the license. >> dr. nancy sherman, your book is called "the untold war inside the hearts, minds and souls of our soldiers." i want to read a passage and have you expand on them if you would. this is from the prologue. you write soldiers are genuinely torn by the feelings of war. the desire to revenge at chaim, there is a wish they want a nobler justice. they feel pride and patriotism tends with shame, complicity, betrayal and guilt. they worry if they have sullied themselves, if they would love their war buddies more than their wives or husband. if they can be honest with the

generation of soldiers that follow. they want to feel whole but they see in the mirror that in the arm is missing or having dragged their bodies parts they feel guilty returning home intact. many have talked to me and you so openly because they sense that they're being listened to bye someone who may help them find in the chaos of the war a small measure of clarity. >> that captures much of what i aim to do in the book and i hope to achieve. the book is testimonial from soldiers in. the person who looks at herself in the mirror was one of my students or student at georgetown who was a west point graduate, a basketball player, star basketball player and a

wind and headed up the unit of security in the province, and she had the enormous trust for the iraqis and one night they were ambushed and she lost her arm, and she was an eye,, -- she was in may coma. and she will then walter reed here in washington. her parents began to tell her what happened and she said i don't want to know. it was hard but then she went on to be a remarkable patient to make a physical exercise program the was tougher than any physical therapist could put

together and one was of a beltway consultancy for the military and so it was resilient. there would be a little glimmer. she said to me would be at the store, a kmart or something and catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror and i felt freakish or i went with other vets to the beach in san diego, she's from san diego, and she said the water felt so good on her body. she was wearing a little cap talk but she said i don't think i will ever wear a bathing suit again. it's very much reminded of a that i'm speaking to again who is a patient at the walter reed a bethesda naval hospital. again, two years, and that the parent's i spoke to as well said

he had a beautiful body. he has lost mobility. he lost both legs, but he is revalidating with remarkable study par stat x -- prosthetics with an ability that many military men and women have. it's amazing. i get enormous installation on warmongering. it's not to call for clarifying it, but it's chongging to be honest. non-conscription professionals men and women come here force men and women, but we often don't know because the sense of our population and yet they are

so remarkable. >> why you, why are they talking to you? >> that's a good question. when i went to the naval academy often turned on a -- learned more than i taught. as a cultural couldn't keep away from given my background, and my dad kind of kept me out of it because you didn't talk about war and the families especially if you came home from the war and wanted to begin again. i have a background in psychoanalysis. i don't see patients but i have training and so i think it's critical not just for me but for anyone to feel returning servicemen to listen with empathy and without judging. they want to be heard, but they don't want to be prejudged so

that is a critical part. >> can you give another example of someone you talk to in the book lacks another story? >> sure. there are so many interesting individuals. he is reserved i believe, and he worked with me at the willson center. i was a fellow a number of years ago at the international school for scholars and now i'm a policy scholar there and use mobilized and reserved and he really wanted to go to afghanistan. he thought that was the war we were going to. he was part of an intelligence unit. he wasn't looking for weapons of mass destruction that was presumed that they were there and i was part of the mission.

he said to me did we ever find wmd, this is after he returned. did we ever find wmd? no, he says. >> that is a hard pill to swallow. and this is a man that has been around the block called pop by his unit for his seniority. she had served, so she isn't aid my eve kid and there is a sobriety to his remarks. what i came away feeling and he wanted to explore with me was learning a little bit about the morrill calling. there was a sense of betrayal that he was experiencing. he had been betrayed by his command or by the president of the united states or the people

that sent him and he had to bear the burden alone. bearing the burden meant coming home coming and he was the person that dragged the body parts scattered on trees and in fields. she came home with a tape the would repeat in his mind of smells and sounds of charred bodies and flash. so he came home with that and has to free integrate. it's not anger that was raging and not fury but simmering below the surface. it comes up sometimes when he has to deal with the va or navigating the bureaucracy

making his way through. you're not coming home to fort bragg to large bases to the regime or what not. you're coming home on your own. he wasn't the 18-year-old that enlisted, he was a noble and had a lot of adjusting to do. >> is it easy to lose the quality? >> we've just seen a disturbing incident and devotee of the marine urination over the devotee of them body.

>> does that surprise you? >> i've been commenting on it. it didn't fully surprise me, because the bombs have gotten dirtier and more precise and they remain invisible in and out of the population. our rules of engagement in the decade of fighting with counterinsurgency operations have become tight, much more constricted so with the soldiers and marines can do on the ground in terms of bringing in airstrike is much more limited. so under the titles they sometimes feel like their hands are tied. that is the terms the use. they crumble. so if they cannot have revenge against the living, they may do it against the dead. one of my students a former marine said it isn't uncommon that you will have bodies at your feet and your waiting for

the proper authorities to collect the bodies and there are insults or defiled in some way and it's really the command culture. it's the leader, the surgeons in that group i believe it was the sergeant present who sets the tone, who sets the culture. so the control and check of the impulses is just critical. that is what teaching at an academy like the naval academy or west point is all about, is how to be a professional and ethical military member. and so does it surprise me? no. is it grievous? no. there is a small misstep of international relations and talks with karzai and the taliban furious i'm sure. but it's a tough job.

>> nancy sherman, you use the word her sullied. what is that and what does it mean? >> sullied means dirty, feeling like you lost your honor. i use it in particular of a copy that i had with a philosopher, and we got to know each other for the circle of philosophy. he cared about that ancient ethics and he was also a west point star student and he wanted to go back to west point and was lucky enough to do so after he received a ph.d.. if he had served in a robust war and wanted to go to iraq to have

credentials and a sort of way. when he went keeneland in a messy part of the war with contractors that is american private contractors and iraqi police and security details and saw some extra judicial killing that was authorized. he was accused of getting a cozy with some of the contractors come and his mood just deteriorated over time apparently. the best of the best. he was the head of the honor code at west point and he started to unravel and he wrote a suicide note before he committed suicide in iraq saying

that his honor had been sullied. it's a great image of the story. in fact feelings in the greek play he feels his honor was trayvon because she was supposed to be the greatest warrior that didn't win the prize but that sends and stature i guess there is a vulnerability. i think we sometimes forget the former devotee that is required because you are being exposed to so much. you ask to be strong and fragile yet the suicide rates have an unprecedented level the past three or four years starting to go down the that's the tip of the iceberg to give you the real

look at soldiers and sailors take on as they fight war. >> if a soldier came to you, nancy sherman, and said it was it worth it? what's your answer? >> i can't answer that for a service member. they all struggle with that themselves. each war you are fighting a war that you fight you don't often get to pick your war. of world war ii kids with her area they didn't have the glory of world war ii rather vietnam and afghanistan they want that for macbook and i think there should be a possibility for selective refusing and there has been something of the sorts selected in the occupied

territories but others are struggling with this issue now when they see it unravel they see the cities they worked so hard on and the head of the elders and the stability operations. i fink a wonder and worry. for others the war will always be about each other, covering each other's backs about the trust that is so deep you have a passage from the book about feeling that you love your buddies more than your family members of, and then having to figure out how to renegotiate those family relationships when you have seen an experience of something so vital and exciting and potent to estimate this is your second book on the military your first being the ancient philosophy behind the military mind.

before you went to the naval academy before you started working with the soldiers, did you have a background in military? in a type of military training? >> no, no. trained as a moral philosopher i worked in ancient ethics and the contemporary problems so this is new territory for me. i was a bit of a fly on the wall. they've put in a new environment, but what i noticed especially in thinking about that book is when i came to teach the segments like cicero my military men and women they loved it and was their

philosophy. they were thinking why? part of it is because it is a version of sucking in of coming and that makes it very real and my effort is to say it is more complex than just sucking it up or restricting the desires in order to deal with the losses can the vulnerabilities but if you are careful to trendlines and say they are often struggling themselves how much are they willing to get the realize that times it is a blessing and curse. there'll be a lot of tools a little kid that serve me well. >> when you went to the naval academy were there any restrictions put on your point

of view on which you could talk about? >> not at all and i very much celebrated that and was happy. it was respectful in the way that any university accepted their customs. in fact people don't realize that the naval academy the best officers lost their midshipmen to say no when they get in on lawful order. they want them to protest the unlawful order or the on ethical and unreasonable behavior. they want them to be the messenger that takes it up but they could cost you.

it shouldn't come likely. you shouldn't fret about whether can you keep tupperware in your locker or square in the corner yelling this or that eating six bytes and then spit out some great campaign trip to get that you are required to learn and reside in these academies. they don't want you to complain about that but if you have none of unlawful or an unethical order and was really somehow called into question your dignity with the dignity of your colleagues, then you are responsible for bringing that up and partly the reason i was there was because i was small potatoes that could blossom into a huge fee moscow if you were at war and so, not so much

censorship but a very irresponsible individual leadership is required for all. >> finally, professor what is the take away on this book? >> what is the take ay on this book and my future work is talk to the service men and women that you see coming off the planes in the airport. as if they were your lawyers and neighbors just listen. they are among us with a heavy burden, share the burden in some ways with them and try to understand not just their visible loans and injuries that the invisible wounds that they may not easily talk about what they might feel. and even learn from them, learn about resilience.

>> you talked about your future work. >> now thinking about returning soldier making peace with war. how to come home and be resilient, find meaning and purpose again after the tempo of the war and the adventure but also the vulnerability and again an example from which we all can learn that goes well beyond of war. >> book tv is on location at georgetown university. we've been talking with professor nancy sherman about her most recent book committed is the on told war inside of the heart mind and soul of our soldiers, it is a norton publication. >> thank you very much.

>> he was a very shy child doodling in his family house. his father wanted him to be a lawyer. he felt it wasn't a stable profession. well, as soon as a calamity have been had a severe economic reversal they lose the mansion and give them the forced to drop out, and he basically says if it wasn't for the fact my father -- if my father hadn't gone

bankrupt, i wouldn't have had the drive they have today. working his way to colombia he got his law degree. practiced law for 1 degree and he did it and the famous admiral felt that his kid had a talent. he taught him what he needed to learn and they start a very successful practice in naval ships. he designed 70% of all of the naval vessels in world war ii, which is an incredible achievement. destroyers, cruisers, a key designs in the normandy aircraft he is also the man responsible for the liberty ship, the iconic liberty ship which is the mass-produced cargo ship that helped win a war. basically faster than they think. that is basically the way to build his mind set.