we also know that the food was inspired and traditional has a are leave and the palate cleanser, the whole procedure to that meal. we followed that protocol. but if you -- i think you can get the book on amazon. >> yeah. >> okay. [inaudible] with a menu and -- i think said

-- [inaudible] [laughter] >> i don't remember that. i don't remember that. but it's entirely -- we don't have menus football -- for every day, of course. some were found on the bodies of people. and somed were shoved in to the coat pockets on the night. but yeah. you can buy that look "last dinner on the titanic" it has a lot of. first and mid class had their main meal in midday. they had a ?awk at -- snack at night. the main mean at lunchtime and they had a tea at 4:00. that was one of the class differences evidenced by the food. yes? >> [inaudible] >> the first funnel, yes. >> yes.

[inaudible] so people could say wow, look how glamorous the ship is. how can you fool the public if there's not smoke coming out of the fourth one and not the other one. >> the smoke went backyards. i have someone write to "the new york times" of canada after the book review and how could hue bruceer not know that it was a dummy in the illustration, you know, he has at fourth funnel with steam coming out of it and surely everybody knows. so i was very templed to write, you know, i'm not such a dummy. as to not know. i wrote sayening i'm surprised our learned respond didn't recognize the famous 1912 illustration which is used for the charm and period charm and drama, not for the historical

accurate sei. the fourth funnel is not a dummy nor am i. it was used for exhaust from the kitchen, from the turbine engine room, from the hospitals, it had a useful function. and actually, all of the funnels had pipes running up the side through which steam was vented. after they resipuated steam was seen shooting up from all funnel including the last funnel. it was designed to make the ship seem like the german liners. to seem bigger and grander and so so forth. the funnel was put to good use. it wasn't a complete dummy. nor am i. [laughter] i think -- are we out of time? it's lovely to have the questions. maybe if you want to gather around the table. you don't have to buy books.

i'm be signing them and answer more questions and chat with you. if you have compliments like our friend here, i'm all ear. all this week watch c-span for live gavel to gavel congress of the republican national convention in tampa, florida. watch every minute, every speech. here on c-span2 it's booktv all day every day throughout the conventions with highlights from the past year of non-fiction authors and books. and on c-span 3 also throughout the convention, 24 hours of american history tv with lectures, oral history and a look at historical american sights and art facts. coming up mark jacob recall the role that philadelphia social lite peggy benedict arnold's second way played in the conspiracy to harm george washington's. this program is under an hour.

[applause] >> thank you for coming. i'm mark jay con. steven is to my left. and we started studying a couple of years ago many years ago discover peggy's story an under appreciated story in american history. in fact she was probably the most dangerous teen girl in american history. [laughter] [inaudible] and, you know, half the age of her husband who was more famous, and it's just it's a story that nobody really knew in fact it kind of -- it was poorly understood from time even. by the time anyone understood what the story was, nobody seemed to care anymore. peggy was mrs. benedict arnold and she liked it that way. he didn't want to be anything else. she would rather be the victimized wife of a traitor than be considered what the real truth is which is a cospirter to

try to bring down the american revolution, and who had fooled the founding fathers and got off scot-free. which it exactly what he did. all right, about more than a century after her death, british papers in general clinton's archives are finally studied by american scholars and they figure out there's automatic this really important or circumstantial evidence that peggy was part of the plot. there's no smoking plot. there's tons of circumstantial evidence. she knew about it and was part of the plot. and but at times, you know, she had really kind of got gotten a pass from history and city fen and i wanted to bring the story to another generation and focus the story on peggy. she's been kind of just a supporting character in a lot of

biographies of benedict arnold. we wanted to center it on her. and typewrite in a different way. do you want to talk about her a little bit? >> we were in damascus, syria, not long ago, the violence erupted in disassistant cities holmes, and it took awhile to get to damascus. and you are a prominent account assistant professional of some kind. what do you do about the war that suddenly in the capital city where you have achieved prosperity and prominence? do you support the the insure, do you support the government, or do you try to stay how do i get through this and come out in one piece with my life and nominee tact. that's what the story is peggy shipman and her family is. and it's all about philadelphia from 1774, to shortly before

1780. peggy's grandfather was a cofounder of what is princeton university, father extremely prominent lawyer in the community, very wealthy, the family were slave owners, still reported in the 1890 census. they had three slaves. they have several children, and mark and i think that the father decided to play the war by being as neutral as he could get away with. leaving no clear message to the children about which side they were on. so what happened? in 1774, in september, the first continental congress meets in philadelphia, george washington of virginia shows up. the practically the first night he was there, he was invited to dinner at the shipman home.

peggy met him then for the first time and knew him well until she had a falling out. and then we get the declaration of independents when she's 16 which is literally signed about a block on and off around the corner from the family's fancy home, and then we get to september 17, 1770 and the british. and the person chosen to be the military governor of the philadelphia area is beb deduct around. by that time he had a leg wound that made him a unable to ride a horse and ride in a coach and he's one -- he's prudent thought to be the most awe dishes and able battle field commander on the continue then tal army side. recognized that way by george washington. so he's 38 and peggy is 18 which

they married. they have a courtship of about a year. it happens -- let me back up a little bit. peggy became kind of this society deb ton at the age of 16 or 17. shortly after the declaration of independents was signed and the war were started in earnest, they ended up, the british ended uptaking philadelphia and holding it for about nine months. during that time, peggy became very friendly with some of the british officers. they seemed to be more fun than the patriot officers. [laughter] there was especially a guy name johned andre who was this brilliant captain who wrote poetry, played the flute, acted in plays and wrote plays, and spent a lot of time at peggy's house and became a grentd friend of hers. but the british ultimately had

to leave philadelphia and go to back to new york. and around arnold comes in. he's nothing like an dry. he's wounded and limping around. >> when the british left, did they do anything special? [laughter] i don't know what you're talking about. there was something called -- this is another thick, when we started studying the woulded with help of brilliant team of academic researchers stie fen recruited and they found great documents. we couldn't have done it alone. so there was this event called -- that i have never heard of. i didn't wonder why they didn't teach it. a big blowout party in philadelphia in the middle of this occupation by the british. meanwhile, this happens in the

spring, just when the terrible winter of valley forge is happening. the continental army is in valley forge. the horses are dying with and people are hardly surviving. the british are having a great time in philadelphia. peggy is too. it may be the best in her life. they had the party which cost incredible amount of money to where they had 12,000 pounds worth of dresses were sold, i think it was a of -- yeah. there are conventions to modern currency we use in the bock. they are really rough. but just some ungodly amount of money. they get these bands floats on barges and go up the delaware river. they take over the warden mansion. warden was a patriot and had to flee. even the mansion wasn't big enough for the party. they built a separate dining

hall just for the event. and they're spending millions incredible amounts of of money. john andre and the dashing officer pretty much in charge of design everything. he designed what colors the rooms would be and things like that. so it was this on surd little oasis in the middle of the material war. the british leave leaving peggy there and disappointed, and benedict arnold comes, he meetly she's known as the most beautiful woman in philadelphia. or the most beautiful woman in north america. when he goes in to exile in london spoiler alert there, too late. but she end up called the most beautiful woman in england. so she's just very highly regarded. she is going parties with benedict arnold and making sure

he spends a lot of money on lavish stuff. so arnold is -- you want to get in to why arnold would have turned traitor. >> he was a feasty guy that didn't sit well. he was in duals with people in the caribbean in the shipping business. and he was serving after the british left as military command er for philadelphia and high candidate for the bad guy in the story is the civilian head of government in pennsylvania man named joseph reid who was exactly the same age. and my judgment not terribly well supported by the record, but it's -- one of the many things i read give me. when arnold, a connecticut man surfaced in pennsylvania and married in to the richest most prominent family in town.

he saw arnold as a rival for post war political power. he started the precedent for watergate. first there was a smear of averaged on eight charges of wrong down in various kinds, and this created a congressional committee hearing under a congressman from maryland and nothing every changes. the congressional committee punted on the outcome. didn't want to criticize the finest field commander in the revolution so far that hero of tie continue row a georgia, siri toga, i. a court martial and washington had no choice but to start court marshall proceedings. and arnold was mad about it. it broke just about the time he married the 19-year-old young lady who had the relationship

not ten months earlier with the handsome 25-year-old british officer john andre. what, mark, what time period? after the wedding, the documentation show that the communication with the british began on the spy scandal. who did they communicate with? >> arnold -- some kind of guy who is really likings the british but somehow able to maintain a residence in philadelphia and they ask him to find the way to nox, and he does and he askses for john andre. now subsequently john andre isn't just a a captain anymore by this time being such a brilliant and well-liked guy, he is acting as general of the entire arm any in effect with the chief of staff to general clinton. and he also solely takes over

all spy duties. he becomes the spy masters of the british horses in north america. so here you have peggy's best friends is suddenly the chief spy of the british arm army. a month after the marriage the letter goes and says, we want to join the british. we'll do whatever we can to help. now we don't know, and we -- in the book we don't guess, you know, we don't speculate much at all. we say all right. we don't know how to came about. it could have been this, this, or this. they could have made a joint decision. she could have begged him to do it. or it could have been his decision. we don't know. mark is a careful scholar. i think it was all her idea. [laughter] [applause] >> well, you know, it could have been. one month later married and suddenly they are sending spy information to the british and trying to make a deal.

an dry even sends a secret letter to peggy saying i would happy to bayou buy -- you sewing supplies. the letters innocuous and peggy -- ultimately there's a separate level of communication with the benedict around has with andre and not get the money they want. what they want is a guarantee look 10,000 pounds. >> they started at 20,000quid. some of the circumstantial evidence is that whatever arnold was away from philadelphia he would send the letters to peggy that would be chock full of

military information where armies were, where they were weak, strong, where plans for troop movements were. it's not pillow talk. it's not what a man would send to the wife and who also subsequently she happened to find a way to hand those messages to the go-between to new york. so, i mean, is that search of evidence or is that her as a spy? so ultimately they are about to come to an agreement and john andre . >> it goes on for what? >> more than a year, really. and so they had dramatic meeting at midnight, and john andre and benedict arnold hold peggy up in the house near west point where they set out a quickly, they often wanted arnold to be a battle field commander even though he had a shattered leg

because he was so good. he wanted to be commander at west point which was the vital set of force along the hudson river. it would be easier to hand over to the british it was a stationary place rather than trying to surrender in the the battle might be difficult. >> people in the room who were my age remember in the '60s the news was full about efforts by the american military to interdict the ho chi minh trail because the cliche army travels on the stomach. no food, no ammunition, no fighting army. if you go in to a skyscraper in manhattan high floor and look across the hudson river to the west, craning your head from left to right, you will see low riskers, 30 or 40 miles out in new jersey. the mountains look to the right it's the other mountain the in

southern new york and further to the right up the river, it's the hudson. from the 1776 until 1782, most of the revolution in the middle atlantic states of stalemate. and the british occupying manhattan and george washington's army stretched from peeksville new york all the way to middle brooke new jersey. and neither side for various reasons wanted to have it out with the other side. the supplies were the military people and the hills in new jersey cross the the hudson river north of west point. west point, which it on a high bluff, the river makes a sharp -- two very sharp turns had a chain build across it. all for the purpose of keeping the powerful british navy from going up river beyond west point where it could interdict the

supply. there's a reason why the u.s. military academy of the regular u.s. army in west point. it was the strategic key to victory in the american revolution. what you had was arnold and peggy conniving to secure command of that acility for general. >> it's interesting, peggy was doing her own work get an appointment to west point. in fact, arnold east sister wrote a letter to him saying she was flirting with powerful politician. >> peggy was. >> which is weird in all of our study of it, peggy never is inappropriately anywhere they use. she's appropriately anywhere they -- she was faithful to the husband and charming and proper. this is one aberration where arnold's sister says she's flirting with living stone and

living stoun was part of the process of decides who would get west point appointment. so the theory is that peggy was working him to help get arnold the appointment. ly got the appointment. another great thing about that if he has a stationary. he picks a house on the other side of the river that is duomiles down. it's 100 felt from the river side. you can make it instant retreat or escape and also peggy and the first born son, edward who has been born by the time. >> six months old. >> yeah. can move up there. they set that up and had the meeting at midnight to make the last preparation for how much he's going get paid and how much -- how quickly the british navy is going to rush up the headson, grab west point and possibly, by the way, capture george

washington who is supposed to visit that weekend. it comes to an amazing cull man nation. >> if it had worked, it might have well set back or ended the american revolution. but the washington is on the way from hartford where he's been meeting with the french general, who they were the two people who ultimately won the war at work town later. he's coming back to west point to visit the works and inspect the fort. after the midnight moting, skipping a lot of amusing details, andre had to put on civilian clothes and go back to the headquarter in new york city by horseback. we have washington and the part-time heading from hartford to west point. andre going by horseback to new york city to get the troops mobilized, get up the hudson and invade west point.

when andre gets to the bridges, he stopped by three men some people say they were thieves. some people say they militia men on guard couth. dutied. they couldn't agree on a price. they took off the boots some say to see if he was carrying spy information. some say to see if he had money in the boots and they found maps of west points and documents in arnold's handwriting. one said we better turn this guy in. so they took him to a place in west chester where the cornel was. the he was mystified by this. he didn't know what to do. he knew washington was traveling to hartford. he sends a prisoner and note to arnold with mess jeers and guards. and he sent a note to general washington. >> saying he found something suspicious inspect effect,

there's a race going on. as will the note get to washington before the note gets to arnold. >> and washington is now in a fish kill one town away from the orlando family house is. and he's expected for breakfast. 11:00 a.m. and he says to the people,let stop, i want to inspect this. it was either lafayette or ham hamilton according to washingtoniveing, we have to go. we'll be late for breakfast with general arnold. and washington says, i know. you young men are all in love with mrs. arnold and you can't wait to see her. and he offered them the go ahead but they obeyed their changedder and so with both notes headed for both men, the first note

gets to where the. arnolds are staying. benedict reads the note and tells peggy and according to witnesses, you know, the very quick conversation and then suddenly he's out the door. and he runs down to the water side and orders the barge to go toward the british lines down the hudson, you know, not toward west point. they thought it was weird. he promised them all a bunch of rum if they got there fast. they finally get to the british boat called the "vulture" later thomas paine said it was vulture entering another. he gives up. he says, all right, i'm joining the british side. and so are these people on the barge. and they say, no we're not! we're americans! we're not going join the british. they took them prisoner. >> he said take my barge crew as

prisoners of war. what a creep. lflt. >> yeah. all right. think about this, this leaves peggy in the house by herself with her son. he has been told that the jig is up. they their plot has failed and she's going to -- she's holding the bag. meanwhile washington is within minutes of getting there. so what she ends up doing is staying upstairs and is quite. washington shows up, but the note to him has not shown up yet. so he's very weary said it's weird neither peggy or benedict are there to great him. i'll to west point and shocked by how badly they have been prepared. benedict arnold was not doing a good job on purpose. mean while while washington is over in west point what happens to peggy? she's upstairs and a note comes

from the counselor in west chester saying the excellent sei is eyes only. al sarnld hamilton goes to sleep in the chair. when general washington onlies back at 4:00 in the afternoon mystified no 19 gun salute for the commander. no general arched what's going on? hamilton wakes up and said messenger brought the note. it all falls together. because he has figured out that arnold -- what does he say? whom can we trust now? arnold has betrayed us. and in the meantime, no peggy. right. >> so peggy shipman downstairs as soon as she let washington get appoint west point to give her husband more time to escape. she launches on something that is history -- the little bit of history that's been written

about it has called the "mad seat." beg gi goes crazy for an entire day. like hysterically mad. she stloaking there are hot coals in her husband head. she said her husband has thrown through the ceiling and gone, gone. she says that general washington is try fog murder her child and she won't let him. and she sleeks down the hallway. runs around the house wearing few clothes also. >> one of the staff officers was richard barack later the mayor of new york and says, she came down downstairs wearing so few clothes that not even a gentleman of the family should have seen her so attired. let alone so many strangers. right. [laughter] >> so. all right.

obviously, you know, you can genuinely see how a woman who was completely innocent of the plot had found out her whole life had fallen apart would be upset. so it struck -- it shocked them. i think they macked them to process in the way she wanted them to process. she was distraught over this. but also the fact that the beautiful woman is running around half clothed couldn't have probably made the men who were more less likely to suspect her not suspect her. they were thinking about other things. [laughter] >> alexander hamilton fell for it hook, line, and sinker. if you want to appreciate it, read the letter to the fiancè about -- he's writing his fianèe how cool she is and how he just wished he could be a brother to her. [laughter] and you wonder what kind of brother? and so, i mean, after hamilton

needed relief, will fiat took over leading one of the biographers to suggest through the ever letters he may have had a sexual interest in her. >> and george washington shows up. and washington being a family friend and washington i got to tell you, two years of reading about the american revolution, to me, only makes you like washington more. and washington, you know, is very sympathetic. shows up at the bedside, what's wrong. and mrs. arnold and she will have dog in with them. that's not george washington. that's an imposer. the imposter who is going to murder any child. she can't recognize the man who is a family friend. she goes just stark raving mad for the entire day. alarming people the entire time. , you want to talk about what she found? >> we had the day with the mad scene she wraps the founding father around her finger.

and one of my jobs in our research was to go through the counselor barracks paper that was at new york historical society. i'm in there one saturday going true the paper. the next morning after the mad scene, in her hand, which is strong and easy to read, is a letter from peggy to barracks say, if you were the army have any fund owed to my husband, please remit them to me immediately. [laughter] we had a quick recovery from being insane. >> right. and from then on she has none of the madness although it it seems to be courting sympathy when possible. she goes back, she's given the choice to go to new york to join her husband or philadelphia to join her family. he picks philadelphia. but joseph reid's peek have ransacked the papers and found that military letter, the letter from john san dry saying i'll

bayou sewing supplies. some suspected it opened up the whole avenue new of communication. it didn't in fact, but it was the one thing they found that is kind of pointed toward peggy. and so they banished her from philadelphia. >> before she gets to phil phil she has to go by carriage across northern new jersey. it's more than a one-day trip. she stayed overnight at the home of a lady she knew in new jersey which did not have a shopping center then. [laughter] and the lady woman was the fiancè of aaron. and peggy knew her. and many years later, after burr had chid, his memoirs were published and he says in his memoirs that she to the house and went inside and said get rid

of the staff. i have to talk to you privately and burr quotes her as saying, i'm sick and tired of putting on-airs of how terrible that is. it fell apart and it was all my idea to begin with. now when that was published in the 1840, the shipman family had a fit about it. and accused aaron burr of having tried to seduce peggy and he fabricated this for getting even. >> he didn't have the greatest reputation. it department hold modern. the shipman family story doesn't make sense. >> by the time peggy gets to philadelphia, a couple of days later, the army has taken care of major andre. he has been tried at court marshall for spying. being an officer in the enemy army behind our lines in civilian coyote clothes. the lawyers in the room would be

tickled to death by the defense he didn't have any lawyers. he never had any legal training and the defense was he came in uniform under a flag of truce, and only donned civilian clothes under orders of a senior officer of the patriot army. pretty good thinking on the feet when you're ready to feel the news around the deck. it didn't work. the 13 generals convicted him. and in a very dramatic scene after asking to be shot rather than hanged and having al sarnld hampton become the best friend, he is hanged in a very dramatic event with men in tears on his ballet sent to give him a fancy new uniform. peggy is in philadelphia. and andre is dead. and they banish her. she promises he won't communicate with the husband. may banish her.

she goes to new york city, her father takes her on a sad trip to new york city to rejoin her husband. that's another unknowable in the story whether she wanted to rejoin her husband or not. women were not allowed legally to divorce at that time. the divorce law was passed after that in pennsylvania. women had almost no choice. she -- she couldn't stay with the family. whom sheed. loved. where could she go? she's 20 years old when it happens. she only saw her parents and siblings one time after she was banished from her philadelphia. >> she was banished until the war was over. she came back one over time but was treated rudely. people didn't like her much. he only came once. she spent her life in exile in london and in canada and, i mean, the book goes from, you know, birth to death, and her later years were sad because

benedict arnold despite making more money off of the american revolution than any other single person, was kept on losing money and going and getting debt and his wife had a very tough life and she was popular though in england. and queen charlotte liked her and through the recommendation of the army, she was given a pension for life. 500 pounds a year. what was a lot of money at that time. >> and separate from arnold. he couldn't touch it. >> he went back in the shipping business. was constantly in trouble. could nautical on american ports for obvious reasons. peggy is at home. they end up having six children. one died infancy. four boys and a girl survived. he developed a lot of business in canada mostly in saint johns and new brunns wick.

had a girlfriend and a love child. peggy found out about that. and soldiered on and kept the family together. as the four boys matured they were given commission in the british arm my and mostly went to india. >> one of them ended up living with an indian woman and having a child. peggy has a half indian granddaughter. who later moved to ireland and . >> arbled dies just after he was 60 in 1801, leaving the family hugely in debt. by now, peggy's father who is strategy for the revolution worked, he managed not to take side and end up an winner. he is now in 1800 deep chief justice of pennsylvania. we have extensive response between him and her in which her father helps her work out paying

all the debts. but the boys are all in the army and far away, and we found in one of her distendst we found a gene yolings to help us. a letter to the same child when the plot broke up. unfortunately, she died in 1804 at age 44, of cancer. and when they went through the things, what did they find? >> they found a lock of haver that john andre had given her in philadelphia. [laughter] there's always speculation of weather that was romantic relationship or it was just a deep friendship, and in fact, i tend to think that andre liked one of peggy's friends better than her. >> peggy -- they had more slaves. >> right. we would love to answer some

questions. [applause] [applause] >> if there are questions, please use the audience mike fop. thank you. >> someone with your gentleman's broad interest that could get interests and delve? to anything. how did you come across this one and why did you decide to delve in to it among subjects? >> i ten twelve years ago i read the mag any great biography of george washington. there are two good stories. one of which i won't tell. it's about after the war and george washington wanted donkeys instead of mules. there's a wonderful story about how he went to the marquee to import congress keys. you have to read it. the other thing i thought was a remarkable story was about the teen woman. it reminded me of some of the

young woman who got all kind of trouble in the vietnam war protests. jo ann, susan, have written books about. i didn't realize a teen woman got herself embroiled by the passion of the revolution, and so i kept my eye out in my other reading and so other a period of ten years, which they're in a box i sent to mark. i accumulated 30 or 40 books and kept looking for things then i propose this to a lit lair agent who said it's a great idea but you're a lawyer, you wrote too many loan agreements. [laughter] so the agent introduced me to mark who is a skilled, able, professional writer, and between my research and my comments, and awful lot of hard work by mark, we got it written. >> and one of the things that

having mentioned is, you know, part of his research task as well as going through the archives itself was to assemble a great team for archivists and researchers. andrea meyer, steph know, marine marie and they -- you know, they hour after hour day after day. they would go through enphotograph original letters in the historical society of pennsylvania . >> that archive has 41 linear feet of shipman family papers. and the brilliant young people that helped us out went through every single one. >> they posted the significant ones on the server i could get ahold of it and city fen could look at it. they were great at -- i had not heard of peggy shipman until my

agent steven brought it to me. and said would you like to work with stie. >> he didn't know what was he was getting in to. [laughter] >> it was a great project. but they were good about not knowing much about it. i had the journalistic questions and newspaper questions in a way. where i would say hey, i don't know anything about the hot hair won by woman in that era can you get me a bunch of stuff. they would ship me the academic articles about how hair was worn. it's interesting. some of the stuff ends up boiling down in three sentences in the book, of course. loyalist woman wore their hair really high. that was considered a difference between the propatriot women and probritish women. for the first anniversary of july 4th in philadelphia. they a mocking parade of somebody wearing a high hair and

they had to parade through philadelphia making fun of the woman with high hair. >> it's a sideline. philadelphia after the british left, right after the fancy party, was really ugly, and people were being hanged for cooperating with the british, and the fighting between arnold and joe reid over who was the boss going through this has changed my attitude about the news reports about damascus and and all of the complicated mess there when everything simmers down. it wasn't pretty. philadelphia was an ugly place that year. >> one thing the book tries to do also is put a human face on loyalist. i think in school, at least i was taught there were a bunch of really great patriots who always did the right thing and everyone else was, you know, findish and only wanted to crush freedom.

[laughter] guess what? it's not that simple. [laughter] and, i mean, moderate historians i've seen one estimate they feel like 40% of cool limbist 20% were independent and other 40 percent wanted to get not get killed and didn't care. a minority were in favor of independents. it happened and i think for the better. >> do you have a question? >> i was wondering, the way you described it happened so fast with peggy marrying benedict arnold and shortly thereafter the . >> secret respondent with the british in new york city began. >> i wondered did you find any reason to suspect that andre had actually suggested that peggy get involved with arnold? >> no. in fact, it may have been we're

not sure -- i don't think that -- at least i haven't read anything that accomplished whether they knew for sure -- it's not clear whether arnold sent their adversary to find andre or go to the british headquarter in lower manhattan. when they went to the british headquarter in lower manhattan andre was there. i don't know it's crystal clear they were asking for andre. he was totally the right person at the right time. it seems like a coincidence they weren't asking for andre. >> if you read the 19th century literature, pretty except for the burr-supporters, it regard strongly militates to the view that she was a sweet, innocent bystander exploited by her evil husband inspect the 1920s the university of michigan clemons library brought general clinton's private paper, and this then revealed to the

scholarly community for the first time all of the secret encoded spy communications, which the common law scholars in the room will be amused to know one of the codes they used the most was based on black stone common tear when was that going to come from except peggy's father the promise inept lawyer. it was only when the secret respondent came out in the 1920s it was overwhelmingly clear peggy had not been duped about the process and creates with the burr memoirs in my mind, a strong circumstantial case that she was clearly a cospirter if not the instigated per. my lawyer friend in the room, i easily get pass the motion to dismiss. i couldn't get summary judgment. but i think i can win the jury case.

[laughter] >> at least a civil. maybe not criminal. >> by a prepond reasons of the evidence i can't lose. >> i have a question. in the book you mentioned that george washington upon reading the note and realizing what arnold had done that he begins weeping in front of, i believe some of his aids and maybe alexander hamilton. i think it's negligenced the book it was the only time. >> will fee yet. >> that he cried in public setting with people around him. i guess i'd through pick your brain brain on was his dramatic emotional reaction more based on the fact that of a sense of personal betrayal or was it maybe more a case of the potential fallout and what it meant for the revolution or maybe a combination. >> i think the war was in

balance something like that a tremendous blow like that was ? >> just for the survival of the rev luge, i think he could have been upset. but also, yeah, it was he had gone bed for arnold. arnold made enemies everywhere he went. people resented him and would always spread rumors about him. washington had no part of that. washington reprimanded them. after that he offered him the left wing of the army. so i think it was just a crushing blow both of the personally and as far as debate of the nation. washington were so close during the french revolution he sent the children to mounter have nonabout safety. what is remarking about the will l.a. -- it was the only time i

saw him break down and cry. other questions? >> right here? >> thank if i'm right, mark, there were -- we all know that agent often have a group of close other

teenage female friends, and what was peggy's group? >> she had peggy and he two friends named becky. one of which was becky franks which was a fascinating person with a great sense of humor who had a father that imported the liberty bell to pennsylvania. so it was a group of two peggies and two beckys who hung out together. and peggy shy, that's the young woman who andre took to the party. that was his date. they dressed as knights or turkish maidens, by the way. in fact, that one of the bigamist i ares that we didn't speculate on but talked about what the possibilities could be was the family story is that shipmans did not allow their daughters to attend the party. at the last minute of a group of

quakers came to the door and said this is terrible. you can't consort with the british this way. it's shocking. plugs those girls outfits are too, you know, too indecent. and argument about the outfits worked. >> peggy shipman and the evidence is mixed over whether she went to the party or not. that did not stop major andre from drawing her picture wearing this fancy turkish maiden party dress. we have reprosecutioned a copy of the picture in the book. it's one of the objects in the the yale university art clect. >> to followup about your question on peggy. she maintained what they call the birthday club with the british officers in new york. there is a group of women, by that time peggy shipman was married. she wasn't necessarily part of

it. all the british officers in new york and the friendly young ladies in philadelphia would toast each other's birthdays birthday separately. some people look -- think of each other in different plays. it was discussed as possible way to get messages during the whole conspiracy andre could write to peggy and possibly invisible between the lines and those would be sent to peggy shipman. it's to indication it happened. it was discussed in the paper that was released. peggy's father was good at polluation of evidence when news of this reached home, suddenly every document anywhere in the

shipman family involving peggy disappeared. and we never had a chance for court of law to oppose sanctions for on jux. [laughter] >> but pretty much many people who think this and we certainly think it. there was a big after the letter was found and it was proof that peggy had been communicating with andre during the war, through enemy lines, all of peggy's friends and family, we think, urned every letter she had ever written. and the reason we think it is because none of them exist and she was a prolific letter writers. and her friends were too. her letters from -- these are remarkably articulate people. you read hamilton's letter and peggy's letters. it was published at the expense,

and you read that and you say this guy -- they all get almost the highest possible scores on the english essays. these were arctic late people with unbelievable broad vocabularies. from that period. >> all the good stuff you wanted to find nobody is ever found. there is back when they were rating her papers, there was a report that she written something catty about the french at this party, and it made fun of the french women who attended the party and that didn't help her out much either when he got back to hill philadelphia the french were in high regard to that. >> i had a question, the relationship between peggy and arnold, was that almost something more of an arranged kind of thing or was it true

love? i guess what was some of the background between some of them. he wrote a letter to peggy saying it's unclear when they met. but soon after he came to philadelphia, and he wrote a letter to peggy saying i want to court you with the intention of marrying you and wrote a letter to her father saying here are what my intentions are. and it was a long period where the family thought no. they didn't want a young beautiful girl to mar marry a 38-year-old with a bad leg and weed widower with three children. there was a lot of reasons they didn't like the idea much her marrying arnold. arnold at the last minute bought this beautiful mansion in the philadelphia area call -- which served as a ting sent a message

to the family. there's no indication from anything they read that they weren't in love with each other. arnold ask d stray and peggy in one receiptor talk abouts the pain that brought her. but there's she seems for faithful to to a man that was not very likable. so i think that -- but it was the book sends a little bit -- marriage was not a decision made by two people. marriage was a decision made by two families. you know, and this was great negotiation and great deliberation before they said yes. >> okay. it strikes me that the overall plot, as you described it a plot that i wasn't at all familiar of the details of the description.

it seems like the like hood of success it was tenuous. it seems like arnold that the likelihood he would not make it through and the whole plan for that matter that the strength of the -- at west point or whatever it seemed like a big risk to me the way you describe it. >> something that a final decision on the last minute of the plan. >> yes. gone up river for the midnight meeting on the ship. and it was supposed to go back on the vulture. it would have a lot easier than going back on horseback. a militia officer that borders that arnold knew about saw the british ship and apparently on his own initiative went out and fired at it. wheeled up a cannon and