policy for putting people in possession of manner. and more local judges take care of that much prison time. i'm not encourage of favoring people to use marijuana but don't think we should put people in jail for it either. >> it's your second book. we did a long forum interview on your first book. you can watch it on booktv.org. the first book tea party goes to washington. the tea party movement was the extraordinary movement the biggest to happen in politics in our country in forty years. a lot of people showing up. hundreds of thousand of people showed up at rallies. it transformed the way we think about thicks began to question whether or not the law that was passed by washington intawrk bun wig example where law were constitutional.

it habit come up since the 1930s. >> the november 2012 elections. >> i don't want to talk about 2012. i'm tired of twelve. let's talk about the future. 2012 wasn't very good for us. we have to figure out a way to appeal to a bigger e lek trait. >> are you running for president? >> that's classified. yant -- your clearance is not high enough to hear that. >> i want to be part of the national debate but it's too early for that. >> "government bullies." you're watching booktv, now william exams how bill and hiking's personal relationship has affected their political lives. he recounts the couple's often tun lent marriage and how each assisted in the other career's gains. it's about an hour.

[applause] >> good even, everybody. thank you all for being here. i'm the director of the kansas city public library. it's a great pleasure to have you here and have william chafe here to talk about his excellent new book, the book that boston globe called a reflective, ranchy, and riting. i want to write a book that gets that kind of press myself. [laughter] i'm trying to live a life like that, first of all. [laughter] but this book, and tonight's topic will remind us that we have a presidential campaign going on in which there is a cry about what is truth and what is fact. what is fiction, what is a low. and -- lie and it reminds most 77 this is rhetorical. there was a time in american history there were great liars.

and we're going reminded of that tonight. remember barry gold water talking about richard nixon. i can't tell you what he said because it's familily wrair and family television. it was a time when there were great liars. i want to coat from william's book just brief i are two different part. it's a dual buy biography of hill rei are and tbil. here on page 153. bill clinton displayed his inability to come clean about personal issues that were core of his identity. sometimes he outright lied often he shaded the truth. often he seemed to construct events that work to his own benefit. i happened to at yale as a undergraduate when they were in

law school. one wonders about the attraction and one reads the second bit can is about ken star interviewing hillary clinton. i can tell you a story about ken who i had dinner with at precisely this time. i won't. it would go on too long. he determined he did not have evidence to indict hillary clinton. the examples of ingenious cases. something perhaps illegal had taken place in arkansas with the first lady much more with her husband at the heart of it. indian the attraction the clintons had for each other. [laughter] i want -- [laughter] i'm quoting from the author, william chafe of who is one of the great historian of american liberalism.

no comment about that. and of gender and racial equality in the history of this country. he's ph.d. from colombia, a dean and elses berry bold win professor of duke university. author of a number of excellent books. i would like to end my introduction on a more nonpartisan note, you'll be happy to know. i read one of the briefs book which is is a book i really looked about a man a great liberal at the core a great left libbial. and he wrote a book about him called "never stop running." howard was one of the people responsible for the creation of a new left movement, if you will, in american politics, but he was also a man who embraced larger ideas of american politics. symbolized by the fact at his

funeral, he was kill bade deranged mentally defective colleague at the age of 51 in his office. at his funeral using gis were made back to back by ted kennedy and bill buckley. that was a time in american politics and history we could remember after the last decade or two of complete partisan ship. it's something chafe has written about. ladies and gentlemen, please welcome william chafe. [cheering and applause] [applause] >> thank you so much. i'm thrilled to see the audience. i'm impressed.

i thought i would begin by telling you a little bit about my career and how i came to write this book as indicated before. i didn't story as a biographer. i wrote books about women's history and the movement. and the civil rights movement, and only toward the last ten years, fifteen years, i started to zero in on the questions of what makes an individual try to change history? i would argue it's a strong coherence in this. when you're writing about social movements, at that point i was writing about the sit ins the students who lead it in february 1st, 1960. i was telling about what happened. how they got their minds to put their lives on the line. now when they did that, within

nine weeks week there were similar demon sphraitions in 54 cities in nine different states. [inaudible] four young individuals decided to make history. that got me interested in all the individuals making history and i did. it helped to highlight what makes someone turn to the point active desize isively in to changing things. over time, i have come to value the idea of personal and -- coming together. i wrote a book which started off with franklin roosevelt and i end with bill and hillary clinton. the more i look at the clintons

the more i became aware how important their personal chemistry was. not only for lives together but shaping the history of the last part of the 20th century. that's what i want to talk to you tonight. the heart of their relationship, the way they which they function together. the way their chemistry interabilitied together. the way that created a partnership that lead them to a critical part of being in charge of our country. where does it again? that their childhood, of course. one of the things we have to recognize at leasted in the case of bill clinton. we are talking about one of the most dysfunctional childhood that could exist. bill's mother, virginia, was an amazing woman. she writes about how every morning she spent ninety minutes

putting makeup on. why was she doing that? she tells you in the auto biography. so she could hide who she was. she really did not want to grips with who she was. she had a a difficult relationship with her mature but loved her father. as it bill. and virginia was a interesting person. not willing to confront some of the realities of her life. she went off to school and meat man named bill who told her he was a salesman. they married two months later. he had never been a sales map. she had been in the army. she didn't know until forty years he had been married three times and had children with the wives and was still married when he came back.

when he came from italy he was killed in a car accident. bill was born and the accident was tragic. virginia went back to school. leaving bill to be raced by his grandmother and grandfather for the first two years. then she fell in love with another person named roger clinton. roger clinton she did not know had been married four times and had accused in one of the divorce cases against him of physical abuse of the spouse. they both liked to drink, they liked to party, they both were flirtatious. but soon it became clear that it was a family where alcoholism and abuse were normative. they were part of daily life. bill is raised in that family, and bill becomes the instrument of saving that family. he frequently comes upon his

stepfather roger beating his mother and he saves her from the beatings. and promises that he's never going let that happen again. one of the things you learn when you read of children of alcohols and people in that family dianamic is a child like bill clinton begins to feel like he has the responsibility of bringing healing to that family. redeeming of it creating honor where there's dishonor. he basically sets out to be the person who is rescue and redeem the family. he's an incredible student. the front of his class, he becomes very active in boy's nation which was a junior american leaguen. gets nominated to go washington for the quote, unquote boy's nation candidate for senate. he's already six feet tall. he strides to the front of the line when they go to the white house to see kennedy.

when kennedy finishes his speech, bill heads toward and gets his picture taken along with john f kennedy. he's so proud. he's already dedicated to the idea that he's is going to be the person who is going bring complete honor the family. by the age of 17 is planning to be elected attorney general of arkansas then governor of arkansas, then president of the united states. this is something which everyone who knows him knows about because he talk about it is all the time. he does not go to the university of arkansas, he goes to georgetown and becomes the arkansas candidate for the foip and goes to oxford. he's an incredible success everywhere. he can't have a sustained ongoing relationship with a woman. he's attracted to the kind of women his mother directs him to who are the beauty queens who are flirtatious and attractive. and that is where his eyes have been.

until he comes back to yale law school. there he meets hillary rod hillary writes in her own memoir as if her childhood were more or less idyllic. it wasn't. her mother, dorothy, is an amaze -- was an amazing human being. her mother was foreign 15-year-old and 17-year-old. they were in los angeles and when she was 8 years old, her parents put her and her 3-year-old brother on a train by themselves to go back from los angeles to chicago. there she continued to be mistreated by her grant parents until finally she was able to get off on her own and went work as a secretary in a factory. a lace curtain factory, the owner of the factory was hugh and he married dorothy. hugh was gruff, he was strong,

he didn't communicate very well, he frequently had vicious arguments with his wife which he spoke disparagely and abusively to her. hef not that nice to his own children. one example is that a child left the top off the tooth paste jar in the bathroom, he would take that tooth paste top and it throw out in the snow and make the child find it. this was not someone whom you felt warmly toward, and basically dorothy was the person hilary's mother who essentially sustained her. sustained here in three ways. first of all, she was deeply christian. she was an active methodist. she wanted hilary to go to the meth death foip. she met a wonderful young pastor. he was the one to help introduce

her to the social gospel. the mortality of justice, fighting for seil right the and issues like that. dorothy helped hilary stand up to people if they would intimidate her. she made her a proud young woman. but she also conveyed a pivotal lesson to hilary. that lesson was there's nothing, nothing in the world more important than saving your family. you must hold on to your family, protect your children, and not even ever consider the issue of divorce. this is a reflection of her own experience with her husband. but she is conveying that message to hymn i are and typicalling her never give up. never give up on your family. well, when 'bill and hillary" at yale she's there a year before he is. he comes back from oxford and

goes to yale. he's troubled. i'm not sure how much of you know about yale law school. it's not infrequent they don't go to class. they are off doing other thing. social actism. bill didn't go to class the first throw months he was at yale. he was act i have in politics. hillary went to class. she was active. she became the first year close to miriam and she was committed to series of social issues. she was a leader all during the time at yale. a leader who was a reformer. who was an activist, but never stop listened to the people around her and trying to build bridges to people and never alien ated the people in power. like the president and the dean of the loom. the most common story how they met they kept on staring at each

other across the room. one day hillary goes up to him and said look, if we're going keep looking at each other this way don't you think we should introduce ourselves to each other? the other one, which i like better is the fact that bill was attracted to the young woman who was totally different from his mother. she never wore makeup. he a coca-cola eye glasses. she never wore smart clothes and basically a nerd. and a good nerd. the other story is that he wanted to meet her, he follow her to registration even though he already registered and then they snuck in together to see mark roscoe exhibit and talked for a long time. the next day when bill called she said she was sick. and bill made chicken soup and

brought to the to her. i like that story. in some ways it's a wonderful story. they shortly thereafter became a couple. they clearly were in love with each other. they fought viciously all the time. they also madeup beautifully and were very kind to each other. and they were very different from each other inspect is the key. these were personalities that were incrediblingly different from each other but compliment i are. bill was full of assets. he was the emotional one. he couldn't stop making friends reaching out to people invoking tied. hilary was to dissed, get to it bill, make the point. when they argued before a yale judge in court, he would make the emotional argument and she was making the hard nosed legal arguments and bakely they were acting out this complimentarity

in some ways he being a classically feminine, and she being more classically masculine in some of the things she was.name. because they fell in love and lived together, bill proposed. he never thought he was going to do this. he proposed and they in were england on a trip after congratulation. and basically hilary said i'm not sure i'm ready for this. why was she not ready for this? in 1972, they had gone to work for the mcgovern campaign in texas. bill in austin, hillary in san antonio. she was brilliant and working with a wonderful person named betsy write who became a life-long supporter of hers and betsy said you are going to be the first woman president. you are so bright. you are a feminist. you care are depthly for what you believe in and you have the

talent of becoming the first woman president. and hillary had thes a per ration. bill had the charisma. the ability to speak to large audiences and mobilize people. hilary is torn. what does she do? how does she do it? she's aware that bill is not someone who is going to give up the philandering. she knows about it philandering. when he runs for congress in 1974, when she's working in washington, she knows that bill has been having a number of relationship spps she sets her father and brother to quote, unquote, help out but in fact to watch him. and the campaign is such that that whenever the they come in, they risk, quote the college girl, out of the headquarter so they don't have any contact with each other. and eventually the college girl leaves the campaign and gets married to someone else. she's aware it's an ongoing

penchant of bill clinton. she's confused. she moves to arkansas to teach in law school. and she basically finally make the decision that it's worth the gamble. they are in love with each other. they compliment each other. they each have skills that the other does not have, and as long as they can work together, she believes it is more likely that is partner as they can achieve their goal of politically transforming the country than if each one were to take their own individual qualities and pursue them on their own. it's an interesting wedding. she bias the wedding dress the night before the wedding at the department store. they don't go on a honeymoon. they are a together couple. and it is out of that context that he becomes eject elected as a attorney general and governor of arkansas the youngest governor ever elected in the

country. it's a fascinated period of time. one of the things most interesting for you look at the first two years of the clinton movement in arkansas, it's almost a replica of the first two years of the clinton administration in washington. total chaos. there's no organization. there's no chief of staff. there's no structure. he's asking for ten things at once not one thing in particular. hilary is knows two people on the staff who were best friends. bill knows two other people. they fight all the time. there's conflict. bill was in big trouble he ends up supporting a tax bill in order get more money to fix the roads, the tax bill runs which actually put a heavier taxes on weighty vehicles than lighter ones. the working people with the older cars are pay the most money for the taxes. totally unpopular. at the same time, a whole slew

of refugees come in and president carter decides to relocate most in arkansas. it's not popular with the arkansas people. even though bill clinton won the governorship he goes down to a crushing defeat in 1980. he's dismayed and disrespond end. he's suffering incredible depression and hillary clinton steps in and said bill, we will organize a re-election campaign. we will create a new structure. she went out and got dick mars, dick mars is the political guru with new york whom i worked with when i was in politics. he pulled the hell out of every question that could be asked and got all the right answers and hilary put the campaign together in such a way that it was a streamlined effort that was ultimately very successful back up to 58% of the vote in 1982.

at that moment in time, they are partners and in exchange for all she's done for him, she becomes the most important single person in the administration. he puts her in charge of the education task force because she said in words that are almost exactly the ones hes you'd step years later when he put her in charge of the health care tax reform. i want the most important reform of my administration to be handled by the person close toast me in my life. hillary clinton. she does a stunning job. he puts together a coalition. she succeeds in passing the legislation needed which she designed to bring ash from 49th in the country to a competitive position. bill becomes a leading governor, and he actually is thinking about running for president in 1988. in fact he's going run for president in 1988. he's about to make the announcement for the candidacy,

he called a press conference and two things happen, betsy wright is the chief of staff or was, says to him, bill, you know, your philander sk going to be an issue. she had a list of women. and she went to seek him out and talk candidly. she came out of the meeting and told me about another ten women i didn't know about. [laughter] and she said, you know, you have to be ready to deal with this if '02 going run for office about the next thing that. s that night chelsea comes to her dad and she's now eight years old and says, caddy what are we going do on vacation next summer? and he said well, you know, we probably aren't going take a vacation.

i'm going to run for presidency. okay. i'll go off with mom and have a great time. and bill starts to think and realize that, you know, i'm about to lose my relationship with my 8-year-old daughter. and this is probably the not right time to do this. he makes the big announcement he's not rupping and going to devote time to his family. one of the things going on here. we're talking about a roller coaster someone who succeeds big time and plummets and plummets and succeeds big time and plummets and succeeds again. and then we're not sure about the plummet. bill goes through a huge depression. and for the first time in his life, he develops a long-term

love relationship with another woman. he is so in love with her, that he asks hillary for a divorce. a two and a half relationship. hillary says no, i'm not going do it. it's almost as though she's hearing her mother's voice. no, i want to stay together and go to marital could could counseling and they do. a year and a half later, he's ready to recommit to the relationship he always said he loved both women. he's not ready to recommit to the relationship. and at that period of time, the beginning of 1990, probably no time have they been more together as a couple than with a common purpose and common goal and the way to proceed to get it. they are working together for him to become a candidate for the presidency of the united states.

but they also know that that problem is out there. and hillary is always proactive preeveryonive, she knows it's going come up. she's going to basically try to help him come out of it okay and in good shape. and so the number of 1990, they go have breakfast the washington correspondent for the christian science monitor. and he has this regular meeting with politically important people bunch of reports and stuff, and they raise the issue of the rumors of bill's philandering, and hilary says, i want you to know we have had trouble in our lives as married couples. we love each other. we believe in each other, i love my husband and we're going stay together for the rest of our lives. and they are blown away by her

commitment. what they don't know and what neither of the clintons know it's a dress rehearsal. because nine months later when bill is soaring in the polls and almost on top of paul in new hampshire primary, the senator for massachusetts next door city, at the moment jennifer flowers says she's had a twelve-year love affair with bill clinton and has the tape recordings to prove it. hilary steps in immediately and takes over, and before you know it, they are doing a repeat of the breakfast only doing it on sixty minute after the super bowl, the largest tv viewing audience you can imagine and they are magnificent and hillary is the one who basically said i love this man. we have had a good marriage. we have had problems but with

restaying together because we believe in each other and in our common goal. she literally rescued the president rnl candidacy. at that moment in time the poll numbers had plummeted because of the flowers charge. now they come back up. and all during that period of time, he is talking about hillary as the copresident. two for the price of one. someone who plays a major role. in other words her rescue of him has been instrumental in increasing her leverage, her power, her ability to make a huge difference. and that's the context within which they enter the white house. there are a whole series of issues that take place. largely assumption of the new relationship that is existed where in effect hillary is acting the role of -- [inaudible] she insist on having an office in the west wing alongside ale gore. all three will sign off on most decisions. she is insists not having a

strong chief of staff. a strong chief of staff would in sense be a threat to the power she is now exercising. she announces that she will become -- bill announces she's going become the chair of the health care task force. the most important initiative reform initiative of the administration. she basically suppresses the instinct of a variety of people in the white house who say we should go welfare reform first. it's going win over the conservative and provide them the credibility to go forward and achieve the health care reform. he said no. health care reform first. she goes and visits two senators democratic senates and says we're going do it by ourself. we're not going comprise and get 100% what we want and demonize the republicans who oppose us. people like bill bradley are stunned. how do you talk this way? we have to work with the people. she insists we will have 100%

not 95%. she scrolled had 95% any tomb that year. people like the senator republicans and other people willing to go to 95%. no. we're going go all the way. she is the person who says we're going bar the white house press corp. from entering the white house. the press secretary is. she fires the travel staff. these are the people who taking care of the reporters. you don't want to ailuate the reporters. she's behind it. and when it becomes a huge scandal, she hires ben moster to hide any indication she's been involved. the most important when clinton who knows he's in trouble brings on david goringen. he served three different presidents all republicans.

a pivot toll figure in washington politics. clinton brings him on to build bridges to the washington community the establishment. and david negotiates the deal with "the washington post and the deal is that the clintons will make available to the post all of the paper around white water including papers from the rose law firm. and if they find nothing criminal then the papers they will promise to completely defend the integrity of the clintons and wipe away the scandal. bill clinton said that's a good idea. george steph stephanopoulos said there's a good idea. most people said it's a good idea. bill said so you to ask hilary and hilary said no, those are my papers i can throw them in the river if i want to. i will not make them available. that's in december of 1993. the consequences are

immeasurable. immediately "the washington post and "new york times" organizes huge campaigns of investigating of what happened in white water. there's more coverage in white water in major papers of the country in the next six months. three times as much coverage as there is of health care. at the same time, they demand -- for special prosecutor. clinton cannot resist it. there's a special. the prosecutor to look to white water. the special prosecutor becomes ken knit star. he goes after hillary primarily. he can't get her he thinks he can indict her but he can't. he persists in the effort to do that. that is what lead us to impeachment. in other words the one decision not to bring those papers to the "washington post" sets in motion

a sequence that ultimate lead to the monica scandal being public and the impeachment process. after the first 18 months, it's clear that health care is not going go anywhere. never the less, hillary insists that 1994, state of the union message bill clinton sayingly veto anything less than 100% what we're asking for on health care. ly have a to that. everyone thinks it's crazy. health care goes down and never comes up far vote in 1994 election happens, clinton is devastated and 81 congressional seats lost. and everything begins to fall apart. hillary is no longer going play the role she's been playing. she starts writing the book and become more involved for advocate for women and children around the the world. she becomes more spiritual in

her own activity. bill -- so your kids don't have to watch pornography. 100,000 new police on the ground. tax cuts for parents of kids in college. and comes home city. a terrorist bombing. bill is brilliant. he rise toss the top once again. he's a preacher healing the country. he's magnificent in bringing people together. on the other side is gingrich and the contract with america and the determination debate to take bill clinton down is a total failure. they shut down the government twice. every time they do that clinton goes up in popularity. he has an extraordinary victory in 1996 which is stunning. what a comeback. it's a third comeback hit 1982

in arkansas, after the flours episode and now with the re-election in 1996. he's at the peak of another one of these crescendo in the roller coaster. where you're there, you have to think what's going on down below. because during that same period of time bill clinton is carrying on a 16-month affair with monica, the white house intern. it's crazy. it's stupid, it's insane. new year's eve, easter sunday, 16-months, and when monica finally gets moved out of the white house because enough people are concerned about how often she's around the president's offs they transfer her to the pentagon, she meets a new best friend named linda tripp and linda tripp tape records every damn conversation and that is all down.

and guess what? linda tripp is in cabbing with a bunch of right-wing people to get the information directly to ken star and we get the paula jones trial, and bill clinton is asked to testify, and bill clinton is asked the question did you ever have sex with a woman named monica? and he said no, i never did. no, i never did, clinton claims he was telling the truth because from his point of view sex is intercourse. regardless, the scandal breaks. scandal breaks. bill tells hillary clinton it's breaking and he said i didn't have sex with her. i tried to do whey could help her. and hillary stands by him 100%. first of all, she doesn't believe it. given the surveillance in the white house she doesn't think it's possible. she believes that the marital therapy they had done in '89,

'90 '91 had been sufficient to restore the relationship. bill is very insecure that the point. the first thing bill clinton does after the charges are made, he asked dick morris to do a possible poll on whether the american people will accept infee dellty. and he reports back and said they'll accept it but not perjury. lying under oath. bill said he's going hang in there. you will all recall the first time he's confronted with the question by jim on the evening news and asked about the scandal and he said there is no sexual relationship. he's weak, he's vacillating and using the present tense verb. everyone gets worried at that point. then hilary once again steps in and goes on the "today" shows and says is part of a vast

right-wing conspiracy. it is. but it's more than that. she stiffen his spine basically puts him in a position of outright denial and for six months he's successful and he basically buys time and the american people become more comfortable to the idea of a president who may have actually done this. when finally he has a testify before a federal grand jury, quote, unquote unappropriate relationship. hilary had to make a final decision of her life as to whether to rescue him again. he told her, yes i did have a relationship with her. and it was a terrible thing i did, and he asked for forgiveness. for the last time she saidly standby you. ly stick by you. i will not abandon you. that is pivotal. that is pivotal. it's a moment in time when a number of senators, democrat and

republican were considering going the white house and say together president you should resign just like they with nixon in 1974. but hillary standing there besides him essentially rescued him. and also rescued her. she liberated herself that the moment because it's the last time she's going have to do this. she could now think about her own career. at the same time she is standing by bill clinton, other monica she's talk together people of new york state who want her to run for the u.s. senate. on the impeachment -- on the day of the impeachment vote in the u.s. senate, as the senate is voting she's having a three-hour meeting with the campaign team about the new york campaign. in many respects she goes back and becomes the person she was as a student, as a student at yale. building bridges, listening to

people, finding out what they want to have happen in new york. she becomes an incredibly successful united states senator. she build bridges, her best friends, not her best friends but john mccain lindsay graham. so there now in a difficult place. bill manages to come back, he always was an effective president. he almost redeemed himself by bringing peace to the middle east. she's off doing incredibly important work in new york. her life is more and more independent of his. and she becomes in a sense an independent person one more time. they are still together. they still are in love. but now she's the person in charge and it's her career that is at stake. we have never had this kind of story in the american white

house. we have never had this kind of personal chemistry. adds personal chemistry which both incredibly enriches our understanding of what took place during those years and leaves us with an abundance of unanswered questions. and now it's your time to ask the questions, i will try to answer. thank you. [applause] ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question for professor come up to the microphone and please ask it as a question no statements. i can't see many hand. people have to come walking up to the microphone.

i was in in an audience of sixty the other night and had twenty five questions. >> in your opinion, do you think hiking will run for president in 2016. >> yes, i do. [applause] i think that -- you department ask the question -- i think in 2008 that she had a campaign that was not very well run. it was run by bill's people. my mark pen and the number one associate and i think that bill lost control during the campaign and said things which were harmful to her candidacy. i think that that will never happen again. i think she is showing a measure ever poise and of skill that is very, very deeply impressive and

i would argue one of the things he accomplished in the brilliant speech the high point in the roller coaster one of the things that. ed in the speech he fortified his own reputation as having been an extraordinary president is not the most successful but extraordinary. an also paved the way for hillary's candidacy in 2016. got out of the way by paving the way. >> in a followup, when hillary runs in 2016. how will she manage bill and what kind of role do you think he'll have? [laughter] >> well, you know, they lived the part for most of the months ever since she went to the u.s. senate. i think they talk on the phone a great deal. i think they are still close, but i think that they are not going to live together for a

long time. she'll stay in washington, he'll stay in new york. i would -- my bet would be she's going run her own campaign this time. i would think if she's electedded, i would be surprised if he moved full scare to the white house. i would think he would live part time at the white house and part time in the new york. he thinks he's going to die young, whether he thinks he's going survive that long, i'm not sure. yeses? >> do you see any comparison between the hillary clinton marriage and fdr and el nor? >> no. yes. i'm sorry do i see any comparison between the hilary bill marriage and the fdr eleanor marriage? >> the reason i say no is that yes, franklin and el nor were political colleagues. starting in 1922 which fdr had polio she was the political surrogate. she represented him on numerous occasions.

she headed the democratic national committee, she was very instrumental in many of the reforms that was the deal. but frank lynn had an affair with hillary's private assistant world war i when she found out about that, she wanted a divorce. that was the end of their marital relationship. their political relationship remained intacted but never became intimate people again. the reason why it's different is they had carved out distinctive roles. they were important roles el nor was an extraordinary first lady but it was not something which was a product of their personal chemistry. and the ongoing intimate relationship. yeah? >> if hillary is a bridge builder, yes. >> what happened with the health care and what would she have done differently if she would do it today? >> i think she would have done differently she would made the

comprise and got, the bill passed. why did all of that happen? i think it happened because both in arkansas and washington she thought and bill thought she more than he they were at the war. they were at the war with the washington establishment. they -- the washington tested both of them. bill clinton frequently lied to the press. they didn't like him at all. she didn't like the press at all. that's why she did the thing with the white house press corp. and travelgate and stuff. i think her position at that point was that if she gave up nick she would be giving up everything. the polarized attitude which was a vast right-wing conspiracy arguement. i think that she lost what she had in college and in law school

which was this sense that her role was never to alienate someone but stay in touch with them. that was a function how fearful she was that she would lose the grasp the power she succeeded in gaining and therefore she had fight it away to have it her own way. yes? >> would you comment on the relationship between president clinton and president obama and how hillary her role in there? >> well, i think none of us know fully what the relationship is except i think that bill clinton made very conscious decision that it was to his self-interest and the interest of the democratic party, the interest of barack obama and interest of his wife, that he become instrumental in making the case for obama's re-election and obama could not make himself. no one is better at mastering

the math of the complicated questions. the number of things he put on the table with the democratic national convention and talked us through were incredible. he just has that ability. i think it was a called a high point of the entire political life. i think they are different people. they probably are the two smartest people who were ever president of the united states. i think that bill clinton who was someone who could never make up his mind. he would make a decision and reverse it the next day. he was up until 3:00 in the morning debating them. president obama doesn't work that way. he gets the opinions and hearing them out and has a sense of what the time frame is to make a decision and makes a decision. they are different in the style. that's why the bill clinton white house was frequently chaotic and whatever you want to say about the barack obama white house. it's not chaotic.

>> sort of followup to the question. but to your response, if she's a bridge builder and bridge builders sometimes do better behind the scenes but less than in the front how does it jive with maybe a president who is isn't necessary a bridge builder but needs to be a leader if she a more capable leader or more capable bridge builder? i don't think we know the answer to that question yes. if we look at different model of the presidency fdr began being a consensus president who tried to create bipartisan and 1934 the rememberty league started and people become partisan in the political response. and he became himself partisan. then you have lyndon johnson.

he was probably the most effective legislator ever to live in the white house. how did johnson do that? first of all, by manipulating people and twist arms. how did lyndon johnson get civil rights act of '64 passed? he had scotch every single night wed ward and they talked through it all. they basically ended up, you know, republicans voted for it and it happened. i don't think hillary clinton is going drink scotch every night with everybody. i think she would basically try to work with people like lindsay graham assuming he's still in the u.s. senate and basically try to create the kinds of coalition. i think obama thought he had that with boehner and it blew up in his face. hillary clinton would have handled that differently, i think.

>> him and susan mac doug l, james carville, yes. >> and what lead to the suicide of vitamin sent foster? >> how much time do we have? [laughter] jim is a period person. he has a lot of psychology abnormalities. and he is very manipulative and, you know, when he proposed the white water deal, bill was not interested at all. but hillary thought it was a great idea. it was basically her decision. jim is kind of sick. susan, his wife was aned incredibly suffering person who never betrayed her confidence in and trust in the clintons. and she was treated scandalously by ken knit star who had her e man kled and put her in solitary confinement.

-horrible the way she he treated her. james anyone who can understand and talk about him was probably one win and cad me award. i'm not that person. -- [inaudible] i'm sorry nap is the most tragic event one can conceive of. foster and west and hillary clinton were best friends. they had lunch every day. west and convinced protected her with the law firm, was accused her of too much time to do politics and not enough time for the law firm. she usinged to call [inaudible] she would throw a birthday party for him and have a belly dancer perform. they were so close it was

incredible. when he went to the white house that relationship changed. and he became more someone she gave orders to. and among other things she gave him orders to handle travel gate. and suppress the evidence of her involvement. she also put him in charge of the white water papers. his comment it was a can of worms, and it was a can of worms. their relationship basically lost the fiber. and the one incredibly tragic story. he was excluded and became depressed. i had got some antidepress cants but they haven't kicked in. they were at the swearing in ceremony and hillary clinton said hey, let's have din they are weekend.

let's have like old times. and they said terrific let's do it. and the plans were made to meet saturday night and drinks at hubble's house and go to an italian restaurant. they were there together, phone call comes from the white house, hilary said we can't make it for drinks. we have a crisis someone in bill's family appeared and the landscape, et. cetera. we'll see you at the restaurant. they go to the restaurant. another phone call comes. we can't make it to dinner. i have to stay here. at which point, convinced foster turns his chair away from the table stairs out the window and says not another word during the entire dinner. seven days later he kill himself. the night before he killed himself within bill clinton worried about him and asked him to come to the white house to see a movie together. vince said i'm watching a movie

here at home. the movie he was watching had a final scene in which the person put the gun in his mouth and shot himself. that's what he does the next day. it's a pure tragedy. horror. what was it that chelsea's nanny, quote, unquote, discovered the missing records of the white house water. >> terrorist a direct connection between when those were records were quote, unquote, discovered and the fact that two days earlier a memorandum was published by