was supportive, the south was not, but even the french had an opinion about it,...

>> hot of food and plenty of it. biscuits, and comfort food as we know it today. >> debra dock -- davis is the author of a guest of honor. think you. [applause] the key you very much for the great introduction. also this seminary co-op for making this possible but also all of you for being here.

i am overwhelmed. but my main hope is to gauge to spend half an hour on a question and answer i will speak briefly in introduce the book in a general way then focus on one section. ones not very long ago americans and europeans prided themselves on the mind attitude of religious toleration in understanding. everyone knew the violence and animosity with the wars of religion but also colonial religious domination by europeans and added to that

anti-catholicism that implicated not only germany but other nations as well year in the u.s. like to think those times are in the past and religious violence was somewhere else and characterized by christian values. today we have many reasons to doubt that. searching for critical self examination as we have the ear and suspicion to disfigure all democracy. april 2011 in france it is illegal to cover the face from parks to the marketplace of local law does not mention the word winded, and muslim or fail or burqa but it was a band

on veiling but it did threatens french values of dignity and equality. although france is a good country to put the ban on the burqa in public space but it is being considered all over europe in many have adopted restrictions. april 28, 2011 belgium voted for a similar ban although it is expected to be challenged. spain 2010 the catalonia and assembly nearly rejected the ban on the burqa reid -- reversing an earlier vote. similar votes are in progress in italy. switzerland after a campaign designed with the muslim takeover a referendum voted by 57% to banda construction

of the minaret associate with the mosque. there are only four in the whole country out of 150 in the architectural issue is symbolic. july 2011 terror struck in europe. 76 people were murdered in the government buildings in oslo shooting representatives of the labor party. the shooter has confessed but although released on the day of the attack with a 1500 page manifesto with the theory supporting his actions, they europe must fight against the scourge of islam is asian.

he had anti-is long roots in the u.s. and europe. in united states it is better to our long constitutional heritage welcoming those to express their conscientious commitment. we do not have any behan's on the burqa or headscarf but there has been the zoning laws to force out the mosque and proposals to put the application of sharia law by the u.s. court and there has been horrific violence. the attack in wisconsin left seven dead. and consider these hate crimes but the political philosophy could help us think about how to deal with

this fear and suspicion. i suggest the three-pronged approach that is good constitutional principles based on sound arguments derived on the idea for equal respect from dignity. i debate to religious liberty including roger williams and john locke and equal respect for conscience and the burden it imposes on the government and policy, led to a tradition that government may not substantially burden and exercise of religion without the public interest. i defend those ideas from other nations as well. the second prong of the approach that i focus tonight, the need for

consistency and self examination to the approach of other people. many policies lack the self examination, the basic virtue to have a coherent and consistent policy. many are flawed in did deeper way that people act in ways to give there own group special privileges and refuse to apply this same law to all people. the third prong, even with the principles and reasoning we need more. inactive, curious imagination, interested in learning about the lives of others and coming to see how the world looks from other points of view.

and looking from adults and children to promote the and the standing. i use the history of prejudice against the jews in europe as a case to think about as we face the prejudiced today against the muslim. the 19th century has many unfortunate features and the wrong this could guide us with issues and are too close to be seen with the clarity that they deserve. but now to the second prong of consistency. the argument of the burqa could be made. but with the five prominent arguments are made in a consistently that favor

majority practices and minority practice is. they are not compatible with the quote religious liberty for all. or the deeper underlying idea of equal respect for all people. all cases by turning.christian tradition against itself but failing to appreciate the large plank is a situation alleged to be present in the muslim communities but failing to note the ubiquity the majority culture. each treats other with equal respect. first, and argument from security that people are required to show their face

in a public place. second, a closely related argument called the argument of transparency says gresser prosody proper to relations is impeded by covering part of the face. they are applied totally and consistently as you will come to know if it's very cold in chicago. i walk down the street that had pulled down and this car for round and sunglasses to keep out the wind was note lot of security or transparency but we cannot enter a public building or a bank. many cover the face all year round american football

players, and skiers fable typically where the full face covering with only slits for the eyes but it will be said living in the era of terrorism it is legitimate to suspect women who wear the tee three. that is why both in the u.s. and europe if i was a terrorist and not stupid the last thing to wear would be the burqa since that attract suspicion. [laughter] i think that would dress like martha nussbaum in the winter with the downcourt and an extra could and large sunglasses and the indian shawl.

but have never been asked to remove these clothes and a department store or a boutique or public building or a bank. in the summer i would wear a floppy hats and a caftan and kerrey of vague handbag. those are the terrorists we need to worry about. what to do about the thoughts that the clothing creates? airline security does the pat down, by the imaging and metal detectors is consistent that is all right. in india all passengers get the full that down who is trained to be courteous and respectful.

others feel bulky clothing is of threats other terrorism or shoplifting could have the rule for floor link coats or the body scanner at the door. but they do not. by one to establish incrimination that the burqa has a security risk. these policies are fine but a reasonable demand was a muslim woman have the full face bono on her passport or driver's license most islamic scholars agree on this point* i don't think this is not compatible with equal liberty. we know the face is a bit in the fire with fingerprinting

technologies have already replaced the phone know when they are broadly available and spread to police on patrol, airport security, we could do away with the photograph the need to say something about the argument that focuses on transparency. talking about civic life we to make contact with other citizens waving to them on the street the longstanding traditions told that the eyes are the windows of the soul. is thought to to be made more to the highest in the nose or the mouth. during one construction project i actually had to

cover everything but my eyes at first they founded a beard but soon there asking me how to get a mask like i had. they did not feel they could not access my individuality. also people have difficulty talking to people who look odd. there is a tendency to blame this on the person who looks odd rather than yourself. those of the disabilities are stigmatized. mental and physical are excluded from conversation. children used to be hidden away from normal children but are now integrated into the mainstream classroom.

normal children found it difficult they thought to interact with them. today in the law school the first loss to -- law student needed a breathing tube and the dog to guide her because she was legally blind. people did not talk to her. they figured she was stupid and shoe is also a gifted actress. now instructors are aware they should not exclude people from conversation just because they are disturbing even including

teret's syndrome pledges a disturbing. and try to do the job better. prominently through my students that was legally blind the third argument it is a symbol of male domination and objectification of women and will treat them as a mere interchangeable object. but the people who make the argument don't know much about is long and do not know what symbolizes what but the more glaring flaw is the society is giving many images that treat women as a sex object pornography, a

nude photos transparent clothing or tight jeans and all of these that may be argued treat within as objects. women are encouraged to market themselves with male objectification and it has been observed a way to rob wind of agency. i have written several articles myself one is pornographic abuse of women on the internet. what about plastic surgery? everytime i undress in the locker room when in bear the scars of liposuction, breast implants were the tunney talk some out of personal choice but some also by the

pressure to conform to the male normal of the female beauty. is banning all practices concluded they objectify women at least it would be consistent although few would read in jurors such a sweeping cause of liberty from those few experts but it is not consistent those of the burqa band tonight object to the other practices but object to those i'd like to be an violent pornography. once again the opponents of the burqa are inconsistent with the fear that is discriminatory and unworthy

of the cafeteria and democracy a point* well made by john scott in her book but only for certain people that they are particularly likely not to understand clearly. to deal with sexism is by persuasion and example. of course, things that of the bill can be disapproved but i argued equal respect for persons require equal conditions of liberty also personal approval many things are the goal that we would consider deplorable instability and narcissism in this society based of equal respect people was one

religious or secular view could disagree -- disagree and even religion themselves but still such a persian should think. the beauty of stability shows she should try to understand listen to what women who wear the aga burqa say what they think it means before offering your view of the aspect of other people's lives like a woman who comes up to a pregnant woman to talk about the pregnancy. a fourth argument somewhere that burqa only because they are coerced. that is typically made by people who never investigated of the

circumstances of that woman. of course, all forms of violence in physical coercion in the home are all ready illegal and abuse should be enforced much more zealously but few agree it is a muslim problem and if they do they're not right according to that statistics partner violence was 20% from the year 2001. national violence against women surveyed site page cited that 52 percent said they were physically assaulted as the child by a and adults caretaker or as an adult. there is evidence muslim families have a disproportionate amount of violence but given the

strong and documented the association with the abuse and no call we could predict muslim families could have less. but if it was strongly associated with violence against women u.s. supreme court has held that nude dancing in indiana a very interesting case could be banned in this part on account of its association with crime including justice souter said crimes against women. it is not clear where his friends were richard posner said it is a violation of the first amendment and the

data was not there they just made the assertion that somehow the presence of the g string would change that i guess the justice did not have much experience in this area. [laughter] but college fraternities are associated with violence against women in. we know that. some have made fraternity's move off campus but private companies can decide what is on their campus and they can decide what would get public money a special with under age drinking but a total government began, the fraternity within male drinking club or like soccer matches would be a bizarre

restriction we have known to be strongly associated with violence is alcohol the amendment to the u.s. constitution was motivated by that concern why should law-abiding people suffer for the crimes of the abusers but it was a total disaster politically practically an increase crime and did not stop violence against women even during prohibition those got the exemption just like today to exempt the alcohol from the drinking age just to pay and the burqa is to say all who wear it to. of the most from important

must consider within their cases and take the consequences. but what about children surely they do not have much choice if they live with their parents so family pressure is likely to be difficult to resist this opens another topic is there nothing that is more common in various forms of emotional pressure? to wear appropriate clothes clothes, choose a career to take a shower. my own father who was a racist from the deep south told me he would disinherit me and not pay for college education if i ever appeared in a group in public that

there was an african-american. there is a lot of that. certainly were physical sexual or sexual abuse is going on. ending it is much tougher to talk about the emotional. as bad as my father's practices were you would not be right for government wear religious mandates are concerned where the behavior constitutes bodily health or safety to have a life-saving blood transfusion or impair major bodily functions the mail genital mutilation should be outlawed as it

impairs pleasure or bodily function. christian science believes children should not be taken to the doctor has also been of the gate is successfully in some treatment has led to abuse and neglect conviction. important to treat them together is there a burden on the religious freedom? doesn't compel public interest to justify the imposition? 534 miners is not about genital mutilation is not irreversible in danger health or bodily function. if imposed by physical or sexual violence they should be legally punishable never it is in the same category as other requirements that

parents impose on their children. some practices to file a lot of child safety headsman blind law professor from yale law school admitted in her book the tiger mother she forced her daughter to stand outside in the cold without supper and also at the piano without bath to access the kitschy had not mastered a difficult passage. some wondered why the police were not at her doorstep but the answer was she was a law professor but they could intervene. another tactic to get the girl to where it it would be intervention that most are emotional blackmail like my

father. parents to motivate by emotional blackmail would show too much legal intervention. societies are entitled to insist of female children with employment opportunity to have exit opportunities. if people think women only wear a the burqa because of pressure let them create ample opportunities. before we leave the topic of coercion when turkey had the veil long ago it was not from the specific context because it was subjected to harassment and violence and it was a choice.

and as long as women did not have the choice we thought of this as a substantial burden. it does not appear to be justified today when winning can circulate freely or certainly not where women can dress. once saying that americans and europeans need to face some involve authority given the u.s. than most european nations had volunteer armies and they just dropped their own law all citizens have reason to be grateful the preference of the structure of five runs a relatively strong.

most do tree traces of the men and women. people should not demonize some laws and extol others unless they can find a difference. it is worth the sacrifice that many people do believe something like this but others make judgment with strangers. one frequently hears the argument 53 is unhealthy because it is hot and uncomfortable. i was in barcelona and i was very uncomfortable the sun is like a weapon. this one woman i was worried about her skin it made a point* that the burqa is an

unhealthy. [laughter] it is so paradoxical. clothing that covers the body it depends on the fabric. but in india full body covering made of cotton is a good choice if breeze easily and keeps the dust and some of the sun off of the skin. i would say many would meet with the dermatologist approval you could pay the price if you were not thinking about that. with they be uncomfortable and unhealthy would we begin with high-heeled and

platform shoes? as delicious as they are now. they have a morality from the french and italian exports. beginning with the regulatory intervention without harmful chemicals but on the whole children are encouraged to wear clothing that may create a health risk to harm their education for them to make that choice. all five arguments are discriminatory. you got need to reach the area with their their religious get special accommodations equal to

liberty. philosophical principles shape tradition and the low lot that is shaped from those. just to give you a flavor of religious liberty and equality in the u.s. and europe. but even if we had the right laws and policies but said danger of narrowness is so acute, what we need in addition, it is the cultivation of the imagination. curiosity that leads us to think of full human beings to are curious to pursue that that fortunately the

university of chicago gives you. today a climate of fear and suspicion directed against muslims presence to the real these commitments. if we articulate clearly in the reasons for them we could oppose and contest these ominous developments. [applause] i will call on people and tell day cut us off. please come to the microphone. also of the you are and what program or what your -- year

you are. >> after that we will do the book signing -- citing. >> one thing that disturbs me is young girls who want to wear covering's but are not allowed are forced it cannot go to a special school so they could be deprived of education others could get fat would create a problem for finding jobs in the future? >> that is important.

that shows policy is counter productive. they want some degree of assimilation that it goes against that. did not talk about the school's with only the headscarf is banned in addition to the burqa that is a clear case of inconsistency because they began the yarmulkes for the jews but nothing for christians. they say the large christian cross so is the appearance of symmetry. but in france they take us stand at the public face should not have religion in its.

so that should take a few extra steps. but no religion we have to reid said text of the of lot. it is not religion of religion for those to fund all organizations in is overturned why should they be treated differently? now with that balance policy if you find out a long list

of exceptions to cover the face except for the one they really want -- want to get out. everyone that i mention in the top of it is malicious and inconsistent but against the backdrop of the idea the french way to do things. even if they have the idea of a french woman still, they will not get that.

>> chicago used to have an ordinance against appearing in public with the mask directed to the ku klux klan klan. i am interested in the related issue of polygamy. day think reynolds verses u.s. bidding polygamy among the mormons was good lot and will it be overturned? >> that is an interesting issue. they also had losses you could not appear in public if you are ugly. [laughter] former colleagues have major neurological disabilities research and found he could not walk down the street. with polygamy if religion in came forward today with the

requirement as was the case with the church of latter day saints in the 1870's 1870's, they would be very hard it is not the legal regime now but what is the compelling state? sex equality could be such a difference there is the case they lost the tax exemption because the interest they did not collaborate with racism. however one practice what was the objection?

it has so many layers the administrative difficulty has to be extreme. there is one case where native american family refused a social security never they said that was so fundamental to society but it turns out she was given one anyway but that is to trump the religious claim. trade polygamist mormon man lost but the first case of the free exercise clause therefore only the territory

of the object of the supreme court. and they should have but it was terrible bigotry there was a scholar of a political scientist and they believed against the evidence to see the description circulated at that time that was designed with the features that they have so it was full of hideous racism that polygamy is patriarchal.

feel the difference between winning a new top in the u.s. with polygamist and monogamous but they could vote 1871 in the monogamous marriage could not. but divorce on the grounds of cruelty the judge did not bother to mention so that was a terrible mess polyandry if there was a religion to get some weird claim, but even though on the whole would prefer sincerity, wherever you are

skeptical of the motive to fall back on tradition. if the mormons to day would decide once again this is a new religious requirement, we have difficulty with my mormon students teaching that history because they have been taught from a young age they should repudiate strongly but if they ever did change not on what is really a child abuse then it would be hard. the court would find something. >> i thought your talk was

great. one thing this is important to frame the conversation is whether or not the extra requirement of the person to wear the burqa i think back to the star of david that was required for then choose to label them. women think of as long to think of one internal group or to groups? does it subjugate the freedom of another group? it is a question of non is long or do we have an obligation of some groups

within others? >> it is a thoughtful question. i am talking about turkey but not those that are tyrannies that impose by force. that is a different question. it might be possible or worried that egypt could devotes a restriction. so i and a strong constitutionalist to define the quality of each human being to be entrenched not so that a majority could vote them away but then we

are ahead in the countries i am talking about is the extra nine position done by in position than it is fair to say i did not have such a racist committees around me but it was pretty racist and i could not even go to a dance much less than african-americans. that is an external. i was in a democracy. then i got to go where

wanted to go and that the people my father did not want me to. with freedom of association. what is much more worrisome of course racist rules that is what jim crow was state-sponsored extern regime so it was imperative

and then with those laws laws that ban interracial marriage but one white man married in african-american woman within society clamps down. but then the police came into my bedroom and arrested them. that is what you talk about. with certain times and places it happened across the board so they should get rid of that extra no coercion as the court said it was there a fundamental

right will always struggle now is gays and lesbians to exercise their right to marry. with the extra no coercion. it is hard to imagine because they do not tell them they cannot apply for jobs. but it denies certain avenues of the employment and education. that is one reason i am so against external coercion. get rid of the ban then we're left with parents and

friends that is bad that we can deal with that. >> a one to ask how you balance -- with the german courts? >> there is a curious parallel between female genital mutilation which is serious because as practiced in much of africa is very extreme but it also impedes painless urination from many health problems.

male circumcision seems not to be associated with any diminishment of sexual pleasure. but the real truth is there is no evidence on the health front it stops the spread of hiv/aids so the leaders have been urging circumcision for that reason. but there may not be any impediments but i think it was about muslims. said jews may get upset. [laughter] but it is true but then what

do we say? but then the rabbi much -- must touch his mouth to the incision. but that could spread herpes. even orthodox rabbis will substitute a different form for that reason. also little girls to get their ears pierced by getting your ears pierced at two or three is more painful than circumcising infants.

but we have to think hard with those things would be it is a religious mandate so do we trump the religious claim? it is certainly not any more than the mandatory inoculation. and then not to get inoculated for the controversial reasons and under the religious claim but i don't think the case

even if they did come in with your piercing. >> look at the palace with the burqa and genital mutilation i did this in to you correctly. on the other hand, wearing

the burqa how to emphasize but the ambiguity that makes them automatic but with the sleeping ordinance to look at counties in the middle east not have a the burqa over many, many years was a sign of maturity. . .

i know for a fact that many women who are educated in charter schools and become staunch anti feminists, anti-abortion this. they ultimately give consent for their husbands and brothers to commit disloyalty to their wives and such, and they are very, very rich. they have their own bmw. the mentality for them is that they're educated from very good universities in which i will

have to work. >> there are people waiting behind. >> the basic thesis, very difficult. >> is very interesting, what you say. i think that is a layer of subtlety and complexity. that no one gets to in the european and american discussion they just see this strange object and don't even think about that. one would have to take account of all of these factors. i am really only talking about liberal democracies here. to that extent then if a woman is rich, ahead of the game because she has opportunities to divert. if she is poor she has few work. my remedy for that would be

education and more employment opportunities thank you. i'm sorry. i do have to talk because we're already at 735. >> zillow, professor. >> i. >> my name is chris. i cannot police say this as well as i wrote it, so i will read from my props. so with regard to better familiarize in our children with their religious difference and the importance of it hearing to the principle of equality and human dignity, how might we avoid fostering the cultural and religious cosmopolitanism that is part of the culture of -- i think cultural consumption which may indeed come upon a place of presumed superiority for the outsider, the consumer. >> i think that is a great question because i think the thing that people in all these countries, maybe europe more than the u.s., has the most difficulty with, people whose lives involve constraint and some degree of anti modern a

tire or behavior. you don't find within the calls the people think of as threatening , the ones that seem incompatible with the kind of secular modernity that seems to define for these people the democratic citizens. and this is very strong in europe. when i talked in europe, believe me, people say, oh, we find your views a cent to five offensive because it suggests that we should move into the villages of something like that. you know, i think in america fortunately people are more willing to accept the fact, the 17th century, people come here with all kinds of strange beliefs, and they sometimes require them to have had that the dollar move in court or to do other kinds of things. i think it is pretty common in this country that people actually do understand this. i tell in the book a story about

when i was at eight sox game because i am a huge fan. sitting in front of me -- well, first of all, on one side was a middle-class father telling his daughter about how baseball is played, so that was kind of neat. and then there was a african-american couple who had a deck that have the logo of the u.s. department religious affairs subcommittee, said that was interesting. but in front of me was for orthodox jewish boys who were wearing ritual fringes under a white sox shirt. they had the baseball close, but then they headed hanging up. on top was the most interesting because it turned out when the national anthem was played that they removed their white sox cap but had to keep underneath. you would expect in some places, and i can imagine, you know, if they did about the flag in europe which they don't quite so

much, but that people would say, you're supposed to take off your hat or hear, we take off our hats. actually, no one gave them a second look except for me. it was just one of these things. part of america. in that thing that has been deeply internalized. end the book with a chapter about the part 51 controversy, the building of the islamic community center in manhattan. and with the epigraph to the book being a quotation from a stripper who works in the strip club next door to where this community center was going to be built and now exists which, of course, there were not objecting to the strip club as an insult to those who lost their lives, but they asked what she thought. schieffer said, well, she thought that it might be noisy. what she understood that there were not going to have the call to prayer and a lot for, then she was fine with it and said, what is this all about our religious freedom, you know.

and it just a gut reaction. let them go their way. a very healthy american reaction how can we keep inculcating is? at think one thing is just in a big city people see, and it's easy to inculcate this in this city where you come across people who are different all the time. but i also talk about literature . and i was a child did not come across people were different all the time and learned about religious minorities to african-americans, from bucks. there was one particular author i talk about to make pennsylvania woman who wrote books about religious minorities . she particularly focused on minorities that have lines that seemed constraining to the majority. one of my favorite books when i was little was a book called the hen that about a little quicker girl who wants the pink party dresses that her classmates have she really hates that her mother

is urging her to read this great and so on. and then one day, and this is set in the past. the underground railway, the mother -- well, a woman comes to is a slave who is on the underground railway, looking for a place to hide. she pauses of girl by her quaker tired and knows right away, this is somebody who stands up for me . will help me. and so she asks the girl, can you find me a place to hide. and for the first time she realizes that her religion has constraints. it's also about positive ideals of social justice and the answer because proud of her great dress. it's a rather simple fable, but it is actually a nice story because it it told me, the one who could wear anything so long as it was. [indiscernible] , that it tells me that there is something in this life of

constraint that is very principled and a very admirable. and so any help of my big stores like that are actually very, very important. >> thank you, everyone, for coming tonight. please join me in thanking our guest. [applause] >> you're watching book tv on c-span2. forty-eight hours of nonfiction authors and books every weekend. >> providence was founded in june 1636 by prominent fastest -- baptist preacher who was forced to flee massachusetts because of religious persecution one of the original 13 colonies of the united states and has a rich literary culture steeped in history. with the help of our local cable partner book tv brings you interviews and tours of the area all weekend long from our recent visit.

>> i'm michael chandler, proprietor of a bookstore here in providence, ryland. we are in southeastern new england. the bookstore that you will find this is the greatest job in the world. it is just that never knowing what you're going to see, what kind of books will come into the store, what people come into the store. we have had famous authors come into the store shopping. we have had people that have performed in ryeland massachusetts, into the store. it is exciting to not know what is going to happen every day and to be surrounded by all these great works is just a wonderful environment. my friends and i kind of had a romantic at the end of starting a used book store. we both had an english degrees and used to go around to different bookstores and thought

it would be need to open one. and we did and quickly found that we did not know anything about business or the book business. he dropped out and pursue the other quests, and i kind of stuck with it. at that time there was a magazine called the antiquarian book ms. whitley. and people, the first 25 or 30 pages or articles about the book trade, and the rest of the magazine or lists of books for sale and then the back of the magazine from the books that people wanted. so that was pretty much how i learned about the book business going through that magazine every week and quoting books to other dealers and reading the articles. we started in 81 in the basement of a building up the streets. in its that was the name, seller

of stories because we began in the basement. we have a little bit of everything. we also have in-depth collections of ryland history. we have a lot of math books. we have art and architecture, modern first editions and poetry. those are probably a things that we are short is ten. popular culture pretty much. however, this literature section has always been the best-selling section in the store, and that is kind of heartening that people are always reading that kind of thing. providence always has been a wonderful place for used books, just because it is one of the oldest colonies, so there are vast collections of books in providence, and we have been able to tap into that over the years and buy collections from

some of the oldest families in ryland, and we have just had a wide breadth of bucks that most stores don't have just because of our geographical location. we collectors coming in from all over the country. providence, the renaissance city so tourism in providence has really picked up over the past and are 15 years. we do get an awful lot of tourists coming in, people who use their vacations to go looking for books at different cities, and that has been a real boost to the store. we have a 2-volume first edition of madam boveri published in french. that is relatively scarce. there aren't too many of those surviving. and once i get a call from a person in providence who got a

donation. he was running some kind of outreach program, and it was a donation of books. and about eight or ten of them have been signed by ernest hemingway, and that was a really great find. there were other books in their signed by barnaby conrad, who was an altar that wrote about bullfights, so it was related to hemingway who was also a physician of bullfights. and there was a book signed by john steinbeck. it was just a great catch. when we get something like that it cannot be they collectors or other dealers, they are quick to come in and make purchases. we started out as a pretty small store and it slowly grew over the years and had been able to adapt to the changes in the book

trade, which had been pretty substantial with the introduction of the internet and changes in people's book buying habits. the people coming into the store was the dominant driving force for sales. we did some mail-order, but it was pretty small. once the internet started, especially amazon, that kind of changed people's buying habits. so we saw a reduction of people coming into the store, what-and traffic, and then increase in mail-ordered traffic and people order -- ordering over the phone, ordering by mail, especially ordering over the internet. affected us a couple of ways. one is that it is kind of driving -- driving down prics