>> that was "after words," booktv's signature program in which authors of the latest nonfiction books are interviewed by journalists, public policy makers, legislators and others familiar with their material. "after words" errors every weekend on book tv 10 p.m. on saturday, 12 p.m. and 9 p.m. on sunday at 12 a.m. on monday. you can also watch "after words" on line. go to booktv.org and click on "after words" nd series and topics list on the upper right side of the page. ..

so, harry hopkins. the editors that i had it works very likes to call him a suspect drove figure. here's the spec to figure the admin is ration of president roosevelt. i'm going to paint a bit of the word picture here at the beginning. [inaudible] >> is working on right? can you hear me? putter rate here. slightly sinister, kind of the ramshackle character, but boyishly attractive.

he was gone, poppers and, both full of nervous energy field day lucky strikes and caffeine. he was an experience social worker, an ambitious, paying your fees due to reform the eddie preferred the company of the rich and wellborn. they said he had of my liquor reasoner and a time like a skinny minis. a new yorker profile described his as the purveyor of which an anecdote. he'd love to tell the story of the time when roosevelt wheeled himself into churchill's that

are unannounced. this is a time when churchill was stay -- living at the white house. the prime minister edges emerged from this afternoon back, leaving p., stark gave the president a full shot and the president was embarrassed. he started to back out. think nothing of it under churchill. the prime minister has nothing to hide for the president of the united states. hopkins, whether true or not, some say it is not. hawkins timed out or not story for years. he was a gambler, a bettercombo courses and cars, even the time

of day. very three times. between his second and third marriages, dated glamorous women. movie stars like pollock gothard, restores the hail, who jumped from her ethics house apart in new york to her death allegedly because she had been jilted by harry hopkins. the former paris editor of the harper's bazaar, who he married on the second floor of the white house in the summer of 1942. he regarded money, his own and other peoples of a thing to be spent as quickly as possible. put people into two categories. talkers and doers.

kerry was definitely a doer. "the hopkins touch" the book begins may 10 to 1840, a year and a half before the united states got into the secular world were. it was the day with the germans overran the low countries and hitler's division were masked in the forest and poised to invade a verge and phrases. it was the day and then they can, 1940, when winston churchill became prime minister great britain and within a few weeks the rest of europe would be under the. on that day, the evening,

roosevelt and hopkins are upstairs in the white house. they were in the oval study and as usual the ensuring, through his stories back and forth, laughing at each other's jokes. at that time, here was 49 and the president was 57. they had known each other for a decade. franklin eleanor roosevelt had consoled harry following the death of his second wife, barbara, in 1837 a breast-cancer instant that time, mr. roosevelt had been a surrogate mother of harry stan daughter, diana, age seven lives in vienna, virginia right now. and so, by that time, harry was almost a part of the roosevelt

family and he was at that time the closest adviser and friend and if anybody could be a confidant of roosevelt, he was. the president since terry was not feeling well that evening. he knew hopkins had two thirds of his stomach removed at the mayo clinic because the diet assist at the time was cancer. this is about two years before 1940. since that time, had been unable to gain any weight. he was clearly malnourished. something was terribly wrong with his digestive system. senate president insisted that

his friend stay at tears for the night in the white house. so here he was the man who came to dinner and he never laughed. he stayed in the southeast corner of the white house in the link of rooms for three and a half years. the tear, just a couple doors down from the president bedroom. and his daughter, diana lived on the third floor for the 03 and a half years until the end of 1943. and actually, hopkins lived in the lincoln room, which was the room thinking is that this office during the civil war. the room often depict it in the recent lincoln movie. somebody did it set up a card table in that room. he didn't have a title for

particular portfolio company set up a card table and started a business for the president, obviously available 24/7. select the nation was strong and to the war during those years, harry would devote his life, literally his life to helping the president and the war and he would shortly form would turn out to be a lifelong friendship with winston and clementine churchill and he would even earn a measure respect and joseph stalin, the brutal to teeter at the soviet union. so what was said about harry that enabled him to climb to the pinnacle of wartime diplomacy on

he was born in iowa, the son of an itinerant harness maker with champagne taste. his father traveled the midwives, hocking harnesses and gambling on bowling matches involving. his father was a ferocious they can have it in polar, that is another, and, with a straight churchgoing methodist and reliever in social justice and helping the poor. and it was his mother as to the settled down in grenell, iowa, the home of grenell college. and so for harry, grenell was

founda, grenell was foundational. it had an amazingly impressive faculty at the time come in many of are devoted to what was then called the social gospel movement, the idea that the principles of christianity could be applied to solve both the nations social ills. harry graduated in may and 12 from grenell and followed in the foot steps of his sister, ada. he became a social worker and his first job was at the crease to do her house, a settlement house the miller recited in hot in the neighborhood where the largest concentration of immigrants in the united states lived. so for the next 20 years, beginning in 1912, he rose to

leadership positions at a whole number of social service and social welfare ages these, providing disaster assistance in the deep south. relief to servicemen and their families during world war i. unemployment and jobs programs and then heading up a huge health care organization in new york city that provided health care services to the poor. i then made two late 1928, he was among the most famous social workers in america. he cofounded the american association of social workers. but as he rose to the top of his profession, his marriage, his first marriage begin to these stitches. he merit a full gross in 1913.

she was a hungarian or jewish woman who is brought up in a 10 minute break near christian dior house. but she had been meant toward by many of the women at the top of the new york social scale, far liberal side. she was committed to social causes of the day, as was harry. they raised three sons, but around 1926 or 27, based on letters and so forth, it appears that harry thought she was too needy and too clingy and decided he had inherited his father shan't faint taste. he hung out at night and speakeasy in new york with palace. he gambled. her of a lot of money. he had a strong addiction to the

english romantic poetry. had an affair with a woman in his office, salima and then he hired a psychoanalyst in 1829, kuwait.could help them out of this love affair. was on the verge of the period as though, and despaired at the onset of the great depression, he divorced out though, leaving her to raise three boys and the divorce decree provided half of his salary would go to her. but in a sense, the depression is a godsend for harry because that's what introduced him to franklin and eleanor roosevelt, you know, and that is what enabled him in his new ways,

barbara, the woman from the office and they moved down to washington d.c. so there you have unemployment in america at 25%. the new president, franklin roosevelt 1933 hired harry to head up the first of several of his jobs program, culminating with him as leader of the wpa, the works progress restoration, the centerpiece of the new deal, whose mission was to put americans back to work on public works and infrastructure projects. sounds kind of familiar. and so, started surviving a cigarette and coffee in a lucky

not to be such in the opposite nights, which he often did, harry and his staff achieves the secular result as head of the wpa put a .5 million people back to work and pumped $10 billion into the economy. and then, once again, harry became one of the most visible members of the roosevelt administration and the new deal. he was on the cover of "time" magazine twice. he hung out with the kennedys and the harriman and this quote. and then, in 1838, 1939 but the president's encouragement. i have not done this. here he began promoting himself as a presidential candidate, looking to the election in 1940. the president did encourage him

and he leased a farm in iowa a coors, but his hopes were dashed when hundreds of newspapers began reporting the story of a comments he allegedly made to a friend at the racetrack, which did not put the administration and the good life. the comment attributed to him was we shall tax and tax, spend and spend and elect any left. whether true or not, of course he denied it come is stuck with him the rest of his slaves and became a rallying cry for those who heeded this about in new deal. and if that wasn't enough, if cameron 1839, when moore broke in europe, harry found himself back at the mayo clinic and the

doctors had ruled out a recurrence of cancer, but they couldn't figure out why he was unable to solar nature since. said they came up with a dog's breakfast of intravenous feeding, the transfusions, injections of liver extract, a combination which he had mr. t. had off and on for the rest of his life and sometimes it works and sometimes it didn't. but for the rest of his life, he was unable to gain weight. his digestive system alluded to the.is to figure out. his digestive system is a mess. sometimes the verge of starvation. so spring 1940, before he moved into the white house, he was at his house in georgetown on

industry, a rented house with his daughter, diana. he was still recovering. and the president had some challenges on his mind. the president is hitler would soon turn to the last, invalid the rest of europe and britain to invade, if not the british islands. and the far east, japan was on the march in the national security of the united states was engraved -- was gravely threatened in the country of course is hopelessly isolationist at the time. so the democratic convention started july 1940 in chicago. the president had to decide

whether he would run for an accident occurred turned. that time the constitution did not prohibit it. i read that he would essentially politically stepped aside and become a lame duck. i think the president, who is said that point by no means over. the new deal had not solved the depression. unemployment was still running 15%. but the president believed he had an opportunity to come to achieve greatness as a wartime president. he knew the words coming. so these thoughts from this mine detonated may 10, 1940, when he asked top cans to live just a few doors down from heaven. so what was it that caused the president to initiate such an

intimate relationship with his advisor? a number of things. the first came from roosevelt himself. after he won the election, wendell wilkie, who repeat this in a soft as in they remain friends. wilkie said to the president, why do you keep that man so close to? batman being hopkins. wilkie did not like you pay roosevelt set coming in now, you may be in this office some day in the lenders and, but he asks for nothing except the certainty. and by that time, hot content set aside his personal and political agendas. secondly, roosevelt turned close because he knew through experience that hopkins had superb judgment that razor-sharp political and teens.

hot teens had a linear way of thinking that roosevelt was a visionary. his thoughts are vacant is connected. hawkins could transform, trees late roosevelt's vision into concrete action. roosevelt made out. and then, he had a contempt for bureaucracy, to cut through red tape. he had this enormously hope of political connections. because he was handing out by the punjab during the depression, harry knew the big city bus is. he knew the mayors, the governor's. and then, another major and why they are so close and this is the key to the relationship type rankings that hopkins could read the president's moves unlike

anyone else. he came as close as anyone to gain admittance into one of robert sherwood called roosevelts heavily forested interior. unlike mrs. roosevelt, he knew when to be still in the presence of the president, when to press them for when to back off until a joke. and then, they were close because hopkins was just great company. roosevelt loved to be around to. he was a window in two world that roosevelt did not inhabit because of his paralysis. so hot it's a come back in a manhattan or washington and regaled the president with his six-point.

he would finish the gossip from the great country houses three state. we can. churchill uses a hopkins had gift of sardonic humor. he was very funny in a sarcastic way. finally, they were close because we each shared disabilities that on the one hand handicapped them in on the other hand powered them. roosevelt knew, as only he could, what courage it took for hopkins to work under the great pressures that he worked with essentially a disc of fictional digestive system. so i figured 1940, the fateful year of 1940 canto close, live

in the white house for eight months by that time had become virtually dissent the bowl. during the summer of 1940, moved to chicago and at the democratic convention orchestrated the draft that led to the president being nominated for his third term on the democratic ticket and then he went to new york, put together the fall campaign, particularly the speech writing team of spammers than robert sherwood and of course harry hopkins. when the election was over, in early december 1940, hopkins and roosevelt left washington just the two of them imported a navy cruiser called the test calusa and and i cruised in the caribbean. the three they came up with the idea that the united states, the

arsenal of democracy would supply the countries fighting germany with more material that they needed and they wouldn't have to pay until after the war was over. i'm the last day of 1940, london was burning. the citizens of london had an air of the point for straight month of almost night a bombing raid by fleetcenter offers, bombing on restrictively over the city of london. thousands of civilians have been killed. hitler's army searches to press the channel, 20 miles across the channel, ready to the briton broke. i miss summer 29, 1940, the largest single attack took place when hundreds of bombers vectored the radio beam onto a post cathedral in a shocked

millions of his theories around the old cathedral in the city. new year's eve, and the city was burning and churchill attracted a cable to roosevelt. dear mr. president, i do not know what is in your mind and i do not know what america played to do, but we are fighting for our lives. 10 days later, january 10, 1941, hopkins found himself in the face of a number 10 downing street, churchill's resident, prime minister's resident hobbesian lunch alone with winston churchill.

the windows of the old house have been adept series. that said they were in the basement. that was an amazing two or three hour liquefied lunch the two of them had. but at that first meeting churchill wrote, let me see if i can remember his words. he said tusayan at harry hopkins, that extraordinary man who played at west to play a sometimes decisive part in the whole movement of the war. and then he said, his was a soul that's lame that a frail and feeling naughty. he was a crumbling white house. from which there shall create events that led crates fleets to

harbor. i always enjoy his come any, especially when things went ill. he could be very disagreeable and say hard sour thing. churchill's words not known to be an undersea error. such somehow conflate iran were for an incredibly special relationship with churchville. and then a few days later, still in england, actually scotland come a few days better he cemented their relationship with the british people. there is a big dinner at the station house hotel in glasgow, scotland and lots of dignitaries were there. churchill very. hopkins is that the head table

and asked him to say a few words to the crowd. so he arose and raised his glass, looking frail and tired, and dumped. he said i suppose you wish to know what i plan to tell the president when i returned to the united state. well, i'll quote you one verse in the book of books in the my scottish mother was brought up and then the famous verse, whether they'll go us, go, with their largest ever lunch. they people shall be my people. thank god, my god and he paused and even end. churchill is right to tears, but that was a hard thing to do for churchill.

he's like john boehner. [laughter] but the important thing is that his word spread throughout great britain, particularly at face, even to the end. so he threw a lifeline to the british people and they never forgot it. during that time he was in england, the first time in january and february 1941, 6 weeks he stayed in subsequent visits to the country during the war, harry would live on most weekends with what stood on 10 churchill at their country house, the prime minister's country house checkers. clementine was famous for not being prone to get a lot with that she did not know.

the very discriminating. but she got along famously. she loved harry from the very beginning. she loved his offbeat raffish miss this margin sense of humor. she was amused by his calm complaints to her that his long underwear and the lack of central heat in the old house. so he would be in the downstairs bathroom, spent hours with the heating pipes are in through, shivering in his long wool overcoat and a scarf in his hat, working on his memos and cables. then she would mother hen.

at night should be kept up with winston well after midnight drinking brand the issue had come up and rescue him, till it's time to go to bed and she put a hot water bottle between the sheets, which she did. she was particularly entranced by hopkins hatch with her often grumpy husband. he could poke fun at the prime minister without offending him. one morning, churchill turned to hopkinson said this water tastes funny and hopkins said of course it does, it's got a whiskey in it. its e.u. a judge of water. last night and then, you know, he would do these things like -- off in odd note to winston

churchill essay deerwood then, happy for dave. how old are you anyway? that's the kind of guy he was. there is another dinner at claridge is in the west end of london and period was hosted by the leaders of the british press, the publishers, the editors, the distinguished writers. churchill wasn't there. hopkins was the guest of honor. and so that journalists would do the lake and what he said that he was asked to make some after dinner remarks and he went around the table, speaking softly, looking at a set, shiny and 86. he gave them the sons that while

america was not yet in the war, she was marching to save them in the british old. and then one of the journalists wrote, we are happy then all. her courage and confidence have been stimulated by a contact, which shakespearean henry the fifth had a phrase, a little touch of harry mma. the hopkins touches not know, nor was it lay. within a few in the summer of 1941, july of 1941 have a harry would be sent on an incredibly dangerous 24 hour flight from scotland around the north cape of norway and talented to besieged moscow. at that time, the german

division are marching along the same route that napoleon took in 1812, on their way to the gate of moscow. the german division are not just -- they were capturing red army soldiers not just by the thousands, but often by hundreds of thousands. they seemed unstoppable amateur prisons were done in the city at night. so hopkins spent two very long evening in the kremlin alone except for interpreters with joseph stalin. that was the first time he met in. hopkins told stalin that the united states was prepared to give the soviet union would've if they needed, whatever they could get there till about the germans. no strings attached, no

questions asked. he was criticized for that theater. but from that point forward, stalin -- stalin gave whenever he saw a company you could tell he respect it in. he conferred to have a measure of respect ignited even conferred a bit of trust so it's hard to tell with stalin. but when he saw us colin -- when he saw hopkins, he walked across the room. walked across the room to meet hot good. and he told people that hopkins spoke and i won't go to see this way, translated to mean according to the soul. and russia, that the state

peculiarly important -- excuse me, import accolade denoted deaths and strength of care and compassion. so hopkins saw the key to the very. this is his focus out the word, holding together the three party coalition of stalin, churchill and roosevelt. that was his focus for the rest of the war. churchill used to be in on some hopkins focus. she would joke that hopkins is a member of the peerage. so there's a lot more to this story. i've heard they become. the notable story, the story never been told in this book as significant as how hairy brought

to a conclusion the most import -- the hardest by strategic debate in the war in the words of john keegan and that was the decision to invade north africa in 1942 instead of doing what marshall and eisenhower and everyone else wanted to do in the military, which was to go to western france in 1842 or wait until 1943. and of course they wanted to north africa and i have geopolitical ramifications that resonate today. times have. that may just close by paraphrasing a few words to me in the book. in the end, the word that comes closest in my view to capture in a quality that enable kerry to proceed with a little touch of harry mma.

the two of them, shakes you as king harry, who is disguised and became one with the troops of the night before the battle and hairy hot kids, who bonded with leaders united states, grape, soviet union. the two of them had a gift for a connect team. for stalin it was according to the soul into churchill. service about, hopkins gave his life asking for nothing except to serve. and so, they're all happy and he was part of that group. thank you. [applause]

[inaudible] [laughter] >> if you have questions, please go to the microphone. >> this is not going to be a brilliant question. i was just wondering whether there's any evidence -- not much i can do about that. this is on. hello? is there any evidence that before he died harry hopkins had to make turns their fears about the soviet union and the poor story. click >> great question. after roosevelt died, harry was that all the wartime conference, casablanca, tehran. so he knew everything that went

on. the day of roosevelt's funeral, which is this saturday in 1845, harry was recalled from the mayo clinic, where he was again recuperating. they flew him back and truman wanted to see him and he saw had admitted the day of roosevelt's funeral. associate melissa mia. of course truman did nothing about anything. so hopkins was among the first people that truman had to spend a lot of time at an hopkins of course filter name about all of the deliberation leading to the outset agreements. a noncombat units begin spinning apart, you know, shortly after truman took office.

molotov was causing all kinds of trouble with the u.n. organizing conference in san francisco and the polish underground people being arrested and so forth. so truman sent hot games to moscow. this is his last mission. he was quite sick. but he took his third wife with him and her job was to administer the medication and keep them off the brandy. she nicknamed the plane that they flew over to moscow the flying boudoir. that was luis macy. she was a dear. they arrived in moscow and harry spent seven or eight days ending with stalin, to try to figure out why everything was falling apart. stalin had an opportunity to really lay out all of his

grievances about the united states. among them being the united states abruptly cut off the minute the german surrender to russia. and stalin was not at all happy about that. so the issue -- the primary issue has to do with the organization of the polish government and who would be in that government. the oslo agreements were a slapstick of those as they could possibly be. all they said was that stalin was supposed to reorganize the polish government, which left it wide open as to what he was going to do. stalin was this early -- the only thing he cared about her deliberations was protecting its borders. he didn't care about the u.n. he cared about reparations, but that was not his primary to third. his primary to learn as

territorial protection, security for his country. so they went back and forth on that. hopkins got nowhere billing on the issue of the polish government that arrested 60 polish underground people. hopkins tried to get them free. stone said no, we are going to try them, but i will be a mania. hopkins at the best price he ever got when he returned from that mission his whole life. i was that he had done varicose. they have problems for the u.n. salt. molotov pact often making trouble. but they never saw the polish question. on the way back expressing serious reservations about the future with stalin and he regretted the fact service about this no longer around. roosevelt had lived, would

anything have been different? roosevelt i have been able, unlike truman and roosevelt would not gotten back into a corner instrument often it and get into shouting matches. roosevelt but never done that. truman had this famous meeting with molotov in which he dismissed him from his office, looking very tough. roosevelt would've treated him differently. my guess is that hopkins lived -- how can died in 1946 early, so he was gone. what had they lived, i suspect it still would've gone that way and it just would've taken longer perhaps. but i don't think had they lived there'd be no cold water. church can visit me at this even hopkins arrived on that last mission in june 1845 and church

can then said to have kids before he went to talk to stalin, he said essentially, don't try to negotiate poland. not going to work. just back off. you're going to make more trouble for yourself getting embroiled in this whole issue. stalin is not going to do it. and of course he was right. so that's the story. >> in the pre-tv era, can you comment the public saw very little of roosevelt in a wheelchair. can you comment on what impact do you think that might've had on the hot kid was about projection to the american public at that time quite >> the fact that he was not shown in a wheelchair quiet you know, i don't know.

all the newspaper people knew it and the public video that he was not all they are, but i don't know what effect that would've had. hatteberg seen them in a wheelchair? had everybody seemed hot consent is worse? i think yeah, if it ever seen hot is the way he looked a good hit of the time, they would instead get that guy out of here because he was a very, very sick man. roosevelt in the final month when he arrived at yalta, everyone commented that coming up, churchill said he is a slender contact with legs and everyone commented that he just looked like he was in his last days. on the other hand, all the

commentators said his mind was signed, that he negotiated the way he ordinarily negotiated, but just with like he was on death's door. hop concerts in bed except for the plenary session. but for eight or nine days, he was in his bedroom. everyone came to his bedroom and doris kearns cookman said he knew better than anybody what was going on, but he just appeared at the plenary conferences. one of the interesting things is the state department. the state department was basically out of the picture during this wartime conference is. they didn't invite -- in fact, they disinvited secretary of state hall from all of those meeting to them harborside after the election in 1944.

harry hopkins handpicked the new secretary of state, who many thought was sort of a stuffed shirt, a suit. stettinius ticket indicted that at the table at yalta. one other -- e-mail, the great, magnificent book this in 1948 the robert sherwood. it won the pulitzer prize. i talk a lot about that at the beginning of my book. and you know, my book could no way supplant that book. it still is a terrific piece of work, but it was written in 1840. so obviously this time for document and diaries, huge amounts of historiography that have come to light since then.

but i just wanted to kind of mentioned that book has another wonderful source. it's called roosevelt in hot and, an intimate portrait. [inaudible] seeing eye hopkins physician on the adam quiet he was involved in setting up committees from the very beginning with roosevelt and churchill and deliberated over the relationship with great britain and united states in terms of who would have the secrets and how they would be shared. but in terms of the decision to drop the bomb, that was of course made by truman and disclosed to stalin after

hopkins had come back from his mission to moscow. hop and had nothing to do with that decision. i don't know whether he was told in advance. by that time, he was back from moscow. it was july 1945. he was said getting ready to resign from the government and the remainder of his life, he and his wife went to québec to new york city. and so, he got kind of an interim, a part time job at the lady's car but workers union as a mediator, but he really wanted to write a couple books. this is incredible.

so they are house hunting in the ecstasy and end up renting a six-story mansion on central park. 1025 fifth avenue and looked right cross at the museum. i asked diana, his daughter, harry didn't have any money. any money he had went right out the door. and the lease is a working woman. she was a fashion editor. so how did they afford this? diana said i'll bet my bottom dollar it is a pair of debate outside. so he lived in this mansion of fifth avenue. he entertained his friends, but he slowly faded in the fall of 1945. bernard farouk was one of his

favorite cardplaying partners during the final days. then he went into the hospital and died in january -- the end of january 1945 and his funeral was at saint bartholomew's church on fifth avenue. [inaudible] -- other members of roosevelt's brain trust? >> at what is his relationship with rexford talk well i'm probably way more and others are in the new to the brain trust? he was a part of the brain trust. he came into really had up for jobs programs. he did meet occasionally with a

group at the department of agriculture. he obviously knew them all. he was close to felix frankfurter. the people that really worked with him for oscar cox and isadora lupine. but he was very close to frances perkins. frances perkins helped him get his job. hey, nancy. >> you tacked a little bit about cordell hull and the extraordinary situation is hopkins being, i guess in a unique position in the foreign policy and national security apparatus. but today that would be very controversial. as a controversial? >> well, hop kids himself as a lightning rod for criticism and was considered to be a rasputin. he was pretty evil thoughts into roosevelt type.

so was a controversial that he would have opposed positions? yeah, he had too much power. he was the only civilian -- welcome nervous about was a civilian i guess. the only civilian admitted to the map room. they set up a bathroom in the white house for other cables came in from all over the world on national security issues. he was the only guy admitted to go in there anytime he wanted to. so he was hated by the conservatives of the country at the time. the newspapers -- the chicago trip and 50 pattersons newspaper in washington, the "washington post" routinely printed all kinds of scurrilous things. and hopkins is thin-skinned. despite all the criticism, he was very thin-skinned, particularly with allegations

against his wife about taking jewels from where beaverbrook, but she did. not the jewels they said she took, but some other one. but yeah, i mean, when they reorganize the state department after hall laughed, he was very, very severely criticized for packing it with his people, which he did basically chose the secretary of state. roosevelt said pine. and you say well, could there be somebody like that today? we need somebody like that today that has -- [inaudible] >> heartmate? [inaudible] -- harry hopkins

>> because i saw how he cut the legs out them under another guy that i wrote about, the first book i wrote him a sort of an obscure character and was shelled, a representative the president sent to india to try to negotiate to do with the indians said they would defend their country against the japanese in exchange for dependent and hopkins cut them off at the knees one night in a conversation with churchill. so i saw the kind to razor-sharp elbows that he had and i got interested in him from outline. >> japanese attack at pearl harbor had triggered the researcher into the world war, my question is hypothetical i guess. have you think the relationship between roosevelt and churchill

and britain would have developed? is there any member randa or diaries to indicate -- it's a pretty hard sell. >> roosevelt was frustratingly, and drove everybody crazy because without the pearl harbor attack, he was moving back. he would move a step forward towards belligerency with the german and then he would move back. he would never get ahead of american opinion very far. he would make a speech if it's a national emergency with have this attack on this destroyer in the next day he was paid at nothing and he pulled back and it drove -- he didn't write anything down, but you know it drove him nuts