say, well, we can do that, too. we can be as good as he is. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. ..

>> i'm jame mcgrath boreas and we're here and behind me stands in her name preferences stuck about the man who revolutionized newspapers. when i first had to recommend the book, people react with recognition than they said i was writing about this appellate her. but it is clear they need to name and not anything about his life because blitzer shares his state of the well-known for a prize, but not for what he did in his life. very few people remember he was an explosives maker.

carnegie, morgan, rockefeller, all these people. pulitzer payday critical role in the industrial age, the age that made america the way we think ourselves today. that's right before his time, we didn't have the media we now swimming every day. the notion of americans checking is on their phones are going to cnn or watching c-span picked his relatives thinks cultivated in that. good it turns out pulitzer nonelected and historical row, let a fascinating life are good at reading, the influence yielded solicitous today. the recent people.member pulitzer because accomplishment is so happenstance. in the 19th century, printing with the internet. but zero well, i can book a

ticket now and every day we exclaim cover city eight years getting is quickly and easily are a commonplace things that i don't think it's a cheap ato and evaluating it. i'm not so sure of americans remember burkett was a rockefeller or carnegie, yet yet we drive across bridges with steel. that's a carnegie kids. we used cars powered that will, it will rockefeller built them is the financial system and consuming is built on a system developed and created by people at pulitzer. pulitzer came to the united states and unearthing the soldiers and they went to europe and he didn't really see any action. like many veterans after the war he was on foot, often afterwards hard to integrate people into the economy. he ends up in st. louis greek

becomes befriended by a major who becomes a senator from missouri this newspaper publisher. pulitzer enters the road. within five years of his dreamy night state companies elected state legislature to stare. it's that kind of speed of immigration 19th century when people would come in. to become successful in a really short in the story, in st. louis, inventing a new form of journalism. pulitzer is the modern-day surfer. if you go to a beach and look at on the water cannot be on with the waves are breaking the cnn in winning paddling was there for us, one of them paddles extraordinary speed and because they perceive the undulation is the best way the day. they don't see it. but pulitzer season-ending

centura title rates of social change he was going to write pair but were they? they were becoming commuters. when they made important economic decisions in the farms were now becoming first ways. paper was being made with such strength that it would come and not clock that can go for opinion prices this high speed that it became possible to print a newspaper, thousands of copies in the street. victorian internet have been event did, bringing news from washington d.c. that morning. what happened in congress would reach by name. they produce an afternoon paper he can sell to commuters that contained economic information, advertising to make a number father contained the latest news of the next days paper printing yesterdays news. he did more than that. he discovered an urban life,

this tremendous trauma you could write up a non-fiction rate, the rate takes and was writing tales. all of these elements combined into a people called western journalism. select a broadway play in the hinterlands before the payment junior, placer did the same thing. you produce style to new york city, the bank new york world and within months as making millions of dollars in revolutionized journalism in new york, being the media center the country in revolutionized travel is an. one set of panic this is an analogy. blitzer created this newspaper in new york in a the down to the lower east side for immigrants are coming in the 1880s and 1890s. millions of people overseas. ellis island about to open a.

the upper class of this hoax is a dangerous group. they saw them as poor, dirty. pulitzer didn't see them that way. he saw them as potential leaders. he admonished to go and read about lives, said the paper was tiny tot lawsuits that and the other class, drinking would say such prado are missing the point to people and delivery side in the overcrowded tenement common pleas relies for trade. and this summer it was so hot in this buildings. this is the most densely populated place in the world. people would go to the roots and mrs. chronicle by the journalists. so by writing about them, he was incensed signifying thereby

connected this compares some of the time. if you take me home, i've been on your refrigerator's equipping is some sort do you cut the conch minutes school. those events. regardless thereby to keep these? writing in print brings dignity and meaning to actions. hillary said costa people saw the paper that produces dignity. the paper also was the entry to american life. for as little as a penny, dress patterns, easy to understand stories come the serialization of literature. we download music. then he printed sheet music. so pulitzer built this enormously in court and symbiotic relationship with the poorest people in new york and in return, two things happened

the her amazing, when it is the statue of liberty being given to the united states by the french people and in return, we were supposed to raise money on around, not congress. the statue is on its way over we had to raise money. so pulitzer ran a front-page story saying a mere pennies nickels. a pitcher named on the paper and will raise the money privately. you have to understand, he's so trusted by the lower classes of new york, the kids with feminist pennies, workers at nicholson say here it is. which i still use this. the that going to send corporate later i hope you send the right way. it amplifies the relationship to the next in the paper, your name but he listed for contribution.

there would appear michael o'shaughnessy's name for having given a penny. so sculptures pedestal was the play in the time that statutes are it was put up and this was with the statue is out in the island. i lasted to this architectural tour of new york to show you significance of all of this, plus it has re-created journalism. it's vital, important. papers are published every hour of the day. an important trial in new york, a rep porter was sit in the room, write a story or car down and take it back to the paper. to put that out, put it in the sleep send david say so and so. it was so important on election night people look at their bypass thousands of parkero because there is a radio to tell you a new book that newspapers

for the eight boards and put the results in chalk. so pulitzer became the midwife of this whole world of journalism in which people depended on it, turn to use entertainment. david say, teaches at the store in the new york world? or maybe a competitor. the point is people talk about news. he went down to part rohan bought the hotel. a great lesson for young people because your penn state dish best served cold. french's hotel kicked him out of the lobby is and conditions, unemployed veteran in 1865. he came back, but the hotel, built the tallest building on the globe and at the top he made a dome shaped building at the top where the editorial offices for the lovely from the top. the top floors of floors of the building overlooks all of new york was where the newsroom was and what pulitzer's offices for.

with so significant if they remade the landscape of new york at this point. think of it in terms of the empires they built in the 20th century, that kind of profound effect. just like he remade landscape of journalism, he remade the landscape of america this building his this is a profound moment that illustrates it all appeared and that's immigrants kept coming into new york harbor and this is something people forget. when immigrants but the steps of russia, there is no delta flight for virgin air flight. you bet the last dollars a night to litigate away from the oppression and reestablish her life and mr. lynn. as unit to the harbor, it's a terrific quality of your first look at the new land and its pakistani economy to the fog will clear and see the statue of liberty. you go right by the statue of liberty and it would of the pedestal had been built with pennies and nickels of the ones before them. the at the first look at the new

york city skyline, where they learned there and push, get their first foothold on the american academic life and it would be cleaning up the code to the world building. not a monument to commerce, banking, manufacturing or agriculture, but a monument to the american press, the only constitutionally protect it for business in the 90s they doesn't say you have the right to make steel. the new york world will be the ticket to understanding how to get ahead. the ticket to understanding english and american politics. he was a very difficult man to live for as a biographer. he was the howard hughes spinney teams century. at the peak of his power, when he was the publisher of the globe, his paper had the power of "the new york times," cnn and the "washington post" and cbs

news. when i was a child used to watch the three networks on tv. immense influence. he reached an artist to knuckle power, so they detailed and it couldn't hear his music, pulitzer could read his own paper. at the same time, he became beset with psychological issues, one of which was the famous tower of silence, graham he could go and occupy featured sound. his new york city mansion a special bedroom has separate walls come inch-thick class to keep the noise out. if you are invited to have lunch with him any rate or salary a fashion to noisy, you get a memo saying next time you have lunch, this became an obsession. he became obsessively beset with all of these problems. so the second half of this site, he got on the world's largest

yacht. marcus was three feet bigger. the engines are put in a special parts of the sound wouldn't reach him and basically went back and forth across the world. one of the most daring writers, david philip graham, a novelist later fascinated by one of his readers would have been of the chute the courage say, your problems are not the kind you can flee geographic way. which you have is a much you need. pulitzer was an impossible man to live with. consider minor operation involves some bleeding, a teenage daughter upstairs and stands out and said i'm suffering here. a self-centeredness, ego mania, issues make absolute fascinating character were able to understand it better.

the thing of the best is that his wife understood at it than any of us did. she loved him in a way that no one else could love him. i see that plan, she took a locket he had with the pain of his mother and we would've gone to kinko's and a large day. should a painter painting large version so before he got the site said he could still see his mother. and later he portrayed that at one point she does have an affair i i think the sense that readers have at that point is you go, girl. he wishes so impossible. people say what is joseph pulitzer's legacy? his legacy has two parts to it. he left money to create two things. one is journalism school, celebrating centennial rate now. this is very important. a sanchez columbia university. i admit the story has a journalism school. but what's important is pulitzer came to realize journalism like any profession, whether where a

tennis require training. so he took his money to create a school by which people could become professionally trained to become journalists because it's a responsible crowd. what is homeport miss i think a lot of solutions to the modern mass media's problems today will come out those institutions were younger people are trying to become journalists and they have to figure out a way to make over. the next pulitzer may, created. the other is supposed to price. this surprises many left behind to work journalists and newspapers and writers and artists and other people for great contributions. two aspects significant. one, if you get it, it changes your life or the joke is now you know the first three words of your obituary will be because his pulitzer prize winner so-and-so passed away. but that reflects the power of fatcats, of the price.

a century after poster said, honor people people using pulitzer's name. the other thing is something the shares of the nobel peace prize. if you look carefully, nobel peace prizes given to to people in danger. could be a woman of her mother standing up for democracy. it could be at or try to bring about peace in northern ireland and the reason the prices given us any sense to protect a person because you're not going to go in assassinate somebody you just won the nobel peace prize. the most significant pulitzer prizes the one for public service and is often given to newspapers who has been carrying the conference on in the community didn't want than to cover. when they cover something, the journalists were ostracized. the local towns have been a lot advertisements, which is the economic base of the newspapers could be a scandal, some name

important, but the community doesn't want to hear about it. when they get to pulitzer prize for public service, it's a national recognition of the importance in any sense provides the same kind of unveil umbrella of protection. pulitzer was an extraordinary person uses to stay effexor lives and just like a child may recognize all of a sudden they haven't been arisen from their father or mother, you suddenly seem just like a mother. you recognize those tourists. with the culture culture need to understand a lot of habits we have today come from people who came before us. when you read the lists are come to understand to rates we have about consumption news, news is a form of entertainment. these are all radical notions that we inherited i've taken not to build our society. the other thing perhaps important about blitzer when he did think about it in a seismic

change going on with the media, pulitzer hammered over and over the newspaper business is not just a business. as a public service aspect that democracy cannot function without informed public that somebody has to be at the school board meeting at 2:00 in the morning with a vote on a contract as to who both the next school. as a pressuring scum of there are no people at those meetings keeping an eye on things in the prize ultimately likes the darkest recesses of our society. we know about hardships about poverty whether he lied to or not because of the price. we know about corruption and it gets fixed because of the price. we know it's on the public agenda and some times too much, like the disco clothes over and over again are critically court rules the press plays an pulitzer story is a reminder that yes these are businesses that are "the new york times,"

the cramps of the "washington post," but they perform this enormously import action of informing us. the question we deal with his diocese papers no longer support themselves, what come next to replace them? that's part of what i hope people take away from the boat. >> santa fe has the highest elevation in the united states for missing senate as an 199 feet above sea level, with the highest peak reaching 13,107 p. book tvs recent area with the help of comcast brings you much of the areas of literary and historical culture. ♪ >> hello, i'm barbara harrelson.

we are in downtown santa fe in the historic plaza, the oldest public living in the united states. the oldest capital in the united states has been here for more than 400 years. it's got lots of stories to tell. i've been conducting a literary walking tour of santa fe since 1996. i'd love for you to join me to hear some stories. we're starting on the plaza in downtown santa fe because this is the harder santa fe from the very beginning of its founding. this desert community events still have been. this is where a traditional christmas pageants take place in santa fe today as they have for the last couple centuries. this is also the first american revolution took place.

the ripples of 1680. i have a bookie or some of you may want to read is called co-pay, reader at the american revolution by native american writers, joe sando and this was an important event that albeit santa fe's history, but the history the nation because this was the first successful uprising a native people against these european conqueror. the pueblo people join together and finish the spanish out of santa fe 300 miles south of here, where they stayed for the next 13 years. our history and culture is so rich because of the three.when a culture group cited influence, starting with the native people and a very strong oral storytelling tradition. for them to write down stories, they danced their stories, they did rock art.

they told their stories to their families and pass them down from to generation. today the native people who rate the most sacred stories should only be passed on by word of mouth. another important reference of literary culture of the spanish you wrote in santa fe for more than two centuries. the first piece of literature to emerge from this era was actually written by spanish officer who came here with the conquistadores and it's his first-hand account of the settling of this country, this part of the world and some of his famous battles. his name was found as part arizona title of the epic poem that he wrote simply means the history of new mexico. it is the earliest first-hand account and was published in madrid and 1610.

the original copy is here in our history library as part of the museum of new mexico. the third dominant culture are the americans who came here. remember, santa fe was spanish for more than 200 years. for more than 25 years were part of mexico after the united states fought a war company became a u.s. territory in the santa fe trail of dead, bringing in americans for the first quote, unquote men and to this part of the world and so the impressions of some of those early traders and settlers who came across the santa fe trail are an important part of our literature because they recorded their experiences and impressions of santa fe, the old royal city. many of them could not believe that her royal city had houses made of mud. there's little bit of culture

shock. others took to the exotic feel of the place in the beautiful mountain setting right away and that is true even today. santa fe inspire stronger motion. for example, a man named chris wilson an architectural historian at the university called the myth of santa fe and which she documents why we needed to freeze the santa fe luck to an earlier time with teresa and why does he feel it's necessarily an advantage and certainly not to advance authentic indigenous architecture. a famous novel was written in the latter part of the 19th century that is still in print today has nothing at all to do it to mexico. it was an accident of chance that the author was general lee

wallace who wrote a tale of the christ. the last two chapters were written here in the palace of the governors in santa fe, new mexico because general lee wallace had been called upon to the president of the united states to come here in serbia's territorial governor and try to resolve the lincoln county war and some of the other problems in this very wild territory. i mean, gunbattles were taking place all over new mexico with a really wild west. but while he was here, yet to grapple with billy the kid. billy the kid is a real live historical character who has inspired probably more writing, fiction and nonfiction did than anyone else in new mexico's history. some of the letters that billy the kid wrote to general lee wallace asking him to honor the

pardon, which billy the kid reneged on. some of those letters are in our history library and was surprised if they've only been acquired in the last few years. what surprised me is billy the kid was literate. the legends about the alito on and on and on. the man who killed billy the kid wrote his story called the autobiography of billy the kid. one of the world's foremost experts had imitated that book. the spring is literature out there if you want to find out what you think about billy the kid. well, there may be famous santa fe cathedrals of st. francis who's the patron saint of santa fe. santa fe actually needs holy faith. there's lots of stories about santa fe and it is reality.

one of the most famous is the novel, death comes for the archbishop, which is historical fiction taste on the real-life archbishop who came to santa fe versus santa fe's first spaceship and later first archbishop. then resent your tunic reforms and subsequently ended up excommunicating some of the more popular hispanic priests in northern new mexico. a famous book about the same man and same area was hit by the late paul hogan and i won the pulitzer prize for biography and is called by media santa fe, his life and times. that is a book that the right side by side along the novel. we are here at 109 east palace, the name of the storefront, also the name of a known fiction

vote, by today, which tells the back story, some of the personal stories of the scientists who came here to work on the project turned world war ii to build the atomic bomb. robert oppenheimer, who had been selected to lead the project for the scientific point of view. oppenheimer new new mexico and the secluded plateau because he would come here as a boy and spent summers at los alamos in that i would be the most perfect place to do the secret project. it's very good and educated scientists have fled and recruited to work on this project. so they trained out here. they were met at the station and driven into town. they would've checked in at this store, which was supposed to look like just a regular to

restore and santa fe. it is operated by a woman named dorothy indicated that oppenheimer had recruited and she processed their papers and gave them instructions to go to los alamos, which was started with a secure perimeter, but they would be coming back to santa fe that often. if they did come, they were to use not the road names, make up some kind of the name cannot say much at all because they all spoke with accents. they managed to build the bomb and helped end the war earlier. but they definitely had an impact on santa fe. there are rumors about spies, secrets being traded to the russians that we know now that was done here in santa fe. another book very close to my heart i want to tell you about, an older book and it too is

nonfiction. written by peggy con church, a more important book in terms of taking him lots of aspects of new mexico's history and culture, how we're a land land of stark contrasts and contradictions in the old and new. so that is why ain't the house addresses all these issues. what then 109 east palace, which is specifically about the project and people who were involved in it. suit to learn more about santa fe new mexico and its literary heritage, i'm so delighted to have been able to take you on a few stops in touch on a few import works of literature and hope it will prompt you to explore more on your own.

>> ricardo cate come the humorist and cartoonist for the mexican newspaper joins the tv to talk about his book, "without reservation." he describes native american challenges in today's society. archaeologists agree of us occupied for several pablo bakken at 1050. >> the first copy, my name is ricardo cate. i'm a cartoonist at the santa fe new mexico income which is the major local newspaper here in santa fe, new mexico. but cartoonist called "without reservation." a collection of my work recently was published on august 1st under the same name without

reservations. when i first started, my cartoons were down here when we first started, but because of popularity, my cartoons have job to the top of the left-hand corner. i'm from santa domingo, new mexico. one of the 19 populace here in new mexico and new mexico another and all the publicized issue dated along the rio grande groundbreakers here in new mexico. my cartoons depict native humor. at first when i first started, they were native carried theories in native situations and ibm's was geared towards natives. but in the last four or five years, the become more universal

where they spilled out into the mainstream, so it's more universal now. inspiration came from reading mad magazine growing up in the 70s. my friend david and i used to exchange, the spirit of spiderman, hulk and other marvel comic books. our favorite was not agassi above is my favorite was john martin is. so that's where my inspiration comes from. i started doodling i don't care yours, but because they grew up on the reservation and not in mainstream, my cartoons were native looking. thus through some of my characters have big noses and some of the tribes up north, like the natives that they tend to have big noses.

people think that's why trot the big noses, but it's because dahmer drew with large doses, so i followed him to do and not. but my inspiration -- and inspired by the people i grew up with, friends, family, members of my tribe. she's basically watching people and some of the things they do a surprising if you pay attention to what people do and what people say. there's a lot of humor you can find them not. this one says hey guys appear. they're talking to the quote premature delivery people and they have to go throughout the assistance of ladders to get the couch at their. they like this because they know it has these buildings where you go way up to the top. so this is one of my favorite. i started keeping my cartoons

basically to myself and showing my kids, i have three kids. i would get their feet back and show some of my friends. one day i was here in santa fe. i draft another off. she sells jewelry in santa fe. she asked me to wait for her for a couple hours. when they had a couple hours i was walking along the streets of santa fe and have been to a revenues through an i walked in looking for a journalism job because i was very interested in writing, reporting. when there was someone, i asked if they needed a cartoonist in the editor is speaking to, her name is renée dead garcia explained to me they don't have a cartoonist here. they get a metal plate from a syndicated and they printed from that day.

so i asked her, but you like to look at my cartoons than? i kept asking that question about the fifth time she lost her patience with me and said look, i told you, that's not how we do it here. you have to go to a syndicated. so i said, could you please just look at my cartoons? i happen to have 11 or 12 drawings with me, so when she looked at them she started laughing anastas sportswriter and the other reporters to come in and pretty soon there's about 15 people in the room laughing and she said we have to have this. so now we still have a metal plate, and come up over my appears, the top left-hand corner is the space they are and they put my cartoon year in the newsroom. so it always makes me feel good

thinking they go through that much trouble to put my cartoon and there. but that first year, there's so many people writing on the cartoons because those the nature of my cartoons to have to do is needed things like scout team and what not and people are appalled because they thought it i was putting down natives. naturally, they assumed it was a non-native trying cartoon and david wright and an obvious awful letters come in here but i would answer each one and explained that i needed me so and so basically they would say i'm sorry. i guess it's okay then. for some reason it's okay if i needed to say it, which i

thought was always odd, but since then, there's been very few letters like that coming in. it's been very widely accepted. there's another paper may cartoon appears in, the osage news in oklahoma. other than that, my cartoons only appears in the santa fe new mexican. i had tried to go through united syndicate. i sent them a letter along with some of my cartoons and i got a pretty cordial letter back about a week later and it basically said -- they turned me down and said we're sorry, but we cannot accept these cartoons. i don't think the country is ready for this. i sent an e-mail back and said i

think the country spent waiting 585 years for this cartoon. the response from my tribe is very surprising. at first i thought the worse, that it would be accepted, that it would be laughed at. i know it's a cartoon, people should not the cartoons, the guys that laughed at her put down the number said they tried, but it's been a busy. they've accepted it and they walk up to me and they actually give me ideas of cartoons to draw. i walked to the village and people walk up to me. have an idea. i tried these known for its pottery making and jewelry making a difference of seven years ago, you would've thought a cartoonist would come inconsiderate tripe such as ours. people tend to think we are

stoic, that native humor is a bit part of our lives, so this cartoon has the santa domingo back on the map. a lot of americans have got the perspective of bill watterson and jim davis and other cartoonists who happen to be from the mainstream. not a whole lot of people have seen or heard the views of a natives such as myself. i think in no way this cartoon is very important because we don't have a lot of choices. in fact, if you watch some of the old movies about natives, we have non-native splaying, indians. and so, we don't have a lot of voices, so this cartoon is one

of the few voices we have. my cartoon is able to be read, first that it's funny and at the same time, i just want people to note that we are still here and although we have suffered a great deal, each one of the tribes in its own way has suffered the same as mine, but i'm hoping that people realize that a lot of the wrongs that were done to natives are still -- it's still a tear. i just wanted to be able to pity she's back on the table and just to remind people that this land came at a price and it's not taken for granted.

but as the people who come at the same time as the people we should move on any humorous way to do that. old people who read my cartoons for the first time, i hope they take with them the appreciation of the native culture and native way of life, even though they may not agree with cartoons reviews, i hope they can appreciate it because it's coming from a real person who's grown up on the reservation and has seen the dominant closer and lived at the dominant culture and so some of this stuff that i learned from that, i put it back in my cartoons in this book. so i hope they can appreciate that. i like it when i try cartoons for the native world and the dominant culture clash. in fact, the chief represents the tribes were the native people. it could be any tribe, whereas the general who happens to the

click custer, but given the new custer would limit me to how i would use them. so sometimes i refer to him as custer, but he is neither the general. but a lot of people realize now how to read my cartoons for so many years that the general actually represents the dominant culture. so when the chief in general are talking, it's the two cultures that are clashing. just to give you an example, this one in this book, with the general and the cheese signed a treaty of or signing the treaty and the chief has just not over a bottle of pink and says it hopes, i'm sorry, with this treaty import? i like it when the two cultures clash because it's my way of how i see the world when our

cultures crash and sometimes the chief has natives fall short in understanding what's happening in a dominant culture and likewise the dominant culture don't always understand where you're coming from. so i'm hoping my cartoon diminishes some of that -- some of those doubts. every once in a while a throw in the and so i opted out about this and this cartoon book is kind of like my history book. if i read a history book, this is that the history book with the click. so a lot of history books i read by people from the dominant culture. so at the natives were to read a history book, disobedient.

>> next, said three sat down with booktv to discuss his book, "blood and thunder: the epic story of kit carson and the conquest of the american west." >> kit cars and as one of those guys who saw most know better for his fictional aspect to this guy was the subject of hundreds of comic books and these original pulp novels called blood and vendors and bad tv shows and that it fees. so that we know about this guy is skewed and mighty by this cumulative history of fictionalizing. so when i decided to read it look about him, i wanted to peel back the layers of fiction to get to the real guy. it turned out the real guy was infinitely more interesting than the fictional terror. i just found he was the sum is

so a character, who even though he was innocent powerless and an illiterate rant away from from this area, he knew everyone on the western stage. he and her site difficulties historical figures and was intimately involved in the exploration and allies, in the mexican-american war, in the civil war, and yet wars. this is the kind intersected with history, but in an intimate way. so i decided to devote a book at about four or five years of a life trying to figure out who this guy was. kirsten came out here in a way to escape america. he was a runaway and i'd heard of these stories about the wild west and wanted to be one of these mountain men, one of these for trappers.

he did come out to new mexico and intersects with these guys. they became an intimate part of the road, which is mainly a french-based culture. he learned french and became fluent in french and lived with these guys have learned to their persistence of the west, basically hunting beaver pelts. because he knew all the red berries, that is the key to understanding the topography and understanding how to get around here. in the u.s. topographical core centum expedition under john c. fremont to explore the west, they needed a guide and free but realized he's not mended the west better than anyone. person acquitted himself very well on expeditions. he sees many people's lives and kept the expedition on track. so he became in fremont's

reports, best-selling books. carson becomes kind of a hero in these stories. but no one could seem to find this guide because he was living in new mexico and is never coming back east. so he was kind of this mistake care or that people wanted to know a little bit more about. and so, when the blood and thunder books became more and more famous, more and more popular comic kit carson was often the central character in the stories. these authors back east who wrote these terrible stories, i would tear you to read them actually. they are not good in terms of literature, but these authors really never made an attempt to understand who the real kit carson was. they didn't get his consent to use his name. kit carson didn't make any money off these books. he hated the books because they

were gross exaggeration and they set up this kind of caricature that he had to spend the rest of his life trying to live down. they would say things they kit carson was the man who would kill to have used before breakfast, which was a good thing back then. in fact come he was married to a native american and was a very close friend to many tribes in the last. cities are the things he had to spend most of the rest of his life living down. he did not understand where this is coming from, why people attack you so desperately seem to be this hero, this character who would personify manifest destiny. whenever he went back east of the people refuse to believe he was the real kit carson because the real kit carson was five-foot four, awkward around people, spent most of his life

in a meal, so had this awkward gait. u.s. and this heroic action figure type guide portrayed in the blood and vendors. so vendors. so there is this disconnect. people say things like, you're not the kit person i am looking forward. they were sorely disappointed. so i spent a lot of time in the book sort of trying to explore the ways in which cars and try to deal with the celebrity. this is very awkward thing for him. carson had another problem, which was he couldn't read them because he was illiterate. so he had to have other people around the campfire read these books to head, which was a source of embarrassment and it just made it all the worse. there was one time in which

carson celebrity intersected with the real kit carson and that was in the 1840s, when he caught an assignment to go try and find a way women, and white was her name, who had been kidnapped by apaches. he followed the trail for five, six, maybe closer to two weeks before he did find and white. the element of surprise was compromised in various things have been and she ended up getting killed. but carson and his men went to the campsite to sit through a belongings, but did they find? new blood and thunder books she had evidently been reading. the star of this book was kit carson. the plot line of the book was sent to rescue a woman kidnapped by indians.

here she was thinking perhaps kit car said was near. she gets killed and in the real story was not able to save this one in. this has haunted him for the rest of his life. he ordered the book burned. he thought these folks are terrible. there's interesting ways in which mythology intersects with reality and his story. one of the most famous stories told during his times that is actually true commie threat to understand the blood of the of these stories are true. the more you dig in, you find pretty suspicious. one that's actually true is during the mexican war, he was in a battle near san diego called san pasquale and the american army had become surrounded by a mexican californian army is building glances, almost like don

quixote. they were remarkably proficient and they were just butchering the american army. they were really good at it in the american soldiers are getting bored and just ripped to pieces by these long lances, almost like adjusting being in medieval times. so they were completely surrounded and is just a matter of time before they were all killed in carson was given the same it to make it to san diego, with every on a shape and maybe could help somehow. so carson at night slips through this range of mexican soldiers somehow, but in the quarries of slipping through this line of soldiers, he lost his shoes and he had to walk 30 miles to san diego pair put across this

country is just unbelievably difficult and. and so, he makes it to san diego, makes it to the ship. they neatly taken to the infirmary, his features completely torn up and is just a mass. but he can't spare, alerts variants of that happening. carson is meanwhile in the hospital for three or four weeks because his feet become in fact did. he never told the story, never talked about it. there is something that was always reluctant to put themselves in the center of the story. and away he saved saved the american army in the situation and their stories like this throughout his life. whatever there's something going

on that bishops are down, carson somehow gets the insanity fix the situation and he does and this is certainly one of the best known. by the end of a site of the transcontinental rather a base being built here most of the tribes he's close to being rounded up and sent to various reservations. his main impact though, what is most famous for his own at the last things he did in his life by the roundup of the navajo indians, what is now depending how you count the numbers among tribes and bloodlines of the sort of thing is the largest tribe in the united states. he succeeded in routing a navajos admitted them to a reservation type hundred also a other distraction of the navajo culture of this long walk a sent

the almost like it had been yesterday in terms of the navajo and their memory of days. they hate cursing. they think he is a genocidal character and erin hates their conqueror. but their hatred of carson is palpable. so it's a very controversial carrot dirt in the southwest southwest as john tibet decays here's the guide with all these juvenile biographies have been american folk hero and it is also considered a genocidal maniac. and so, how do you reconcile these two very different images. as structured the book in three parts. the first part, the new man, is about the arrival of the americans into the southwest, during the time to put them out in an era leading to three months expeditions into the west

and finally, the american army survival during the mexican war. so it's really just kind of from shifting perspectives, serta sjostrom native american points of view to mexican points of view. and who is this to arrival, the new name? what are they about? why are they here? what here? what are they about what this desert country out here? said that his part 1. part 2 is called a broken country. basically it looks at the beginning of occupation, like the conquest of the west was remarkably easy and fairly straightforward, but conquest was one game. occupation is something different. research by as a nation have discovered and learned this hard lesson in afghanistan insert in iraq. ..

>> it's too hard to to run this place. just a little -- there was just so much violence, there was, you know, slavery, there was hostage taking, and, you know, it was just unfamiliar country that people in washington didn't know what to do with. so that's part two. part three is really about carson's role in the conquest of the navajo people and everything

he did with that, monster's lair, it's called. and this was sort of the final act of his career, and it's probably what he's best known for, this sort of scorched earth campaign that he led into navajo country that resulted in their conquest and their removal from their beloved land and this great experiment that went on to try to force the navajo to become, to settle l down and become farmers and christians living on this sort of reservation on the border with texas. so it's, it's a big, sprawling book that has many parts, and the remarkable thing is that kit carson is the kind of through line that makes it make sense. he just intersected with all these different aspects of history out here. when i read the book, i was really worried about the sort of political correctness aspect of

it, because the book is constantly shifting its point of view. i'm writing about the pueblo indians, and then i'm writing about the apaches, and then i'm writing about the anglo americans and the french folkings and the spanish, of course. and, you know, it's just easy to put your foot -- it's a mine field, let's put it that way. and i i was worried that i was offending people, you know, left, right and center because there's so many people out here, so many different cultures. but that didn't really happen. i don't think, you know, certainly there's some criticism, there's always criticism when you write a book this big. but i was surprised by how many, you know, how many people have responded favorably to the book. even the navajo who cannot stand kit carson and who have asked me at various times why would you write a book about this guy, you know? he's as evil as hitler or

genghis khan or something. i went out to navajo country to give a talk, and a very nice woman bought the book, and she stood up, asked me a question. she was holding the book, and she said, you know, i bought the book, i'm going to take it home, and i'm going to try to read it, but most likely i'm just going to use it for target practice. so she had a sense of humor about it and was very polite about it, but she spoke to the depth of feeling that's out there against carson in indian country. i started out the book believing that carson was one of the great indian killers, that he was somehow an indian hater, that he had this ferocious dislike of indian culture because that's what you will certainly hear, for example, out in navajo country. but when you get into his life, you realize it's very complicated. he spoke numerous indian tongues.

his first wife, who was arapaho, singing grass, was the love of his life. they had two daughters. his second wife was cheyenne. he was very close with the ute tribe and the pueblo indians and many of the plains indian tubes. so it becomes much more complicated when you -- i mean, you can't say this is an indian hater. he was someone who allied himself with certain tribes and was sort of a bitter enemy against other tribes. he didn't really think monolithically about american indians. he thought specific tribes. and sort of the last tribe that he affiliated himself with was, if you want to call it that, was the spanish tribe of new mexico. he became spanish almost. his third and final wife was spanish. they raised their kids here in

new mexico. he converted to catholicism. they spoke spanish, you know, and he dreamed in spanish. he thought in spanish. his last words right before his death were in spanish. so the enemy of the spanish in those times here in new mexico, the sort of mortal enemy was the navajo. so i think that's kind of the way he thought in terms of tribal allegiances that ran deep. and so when he got the assignment to go round up the navajo, he was willing to do it. it doesn't mean that he hated indians. it meant that he still thought, i think, in this kind of tribal way, and i think that explains a lot better his motivation for doing what he did. >> booktv recently explored the historical and literary culture of santa fe, new mexico, with the help of our local cable partner, comcast. keep watching all weekend long

for more from the area. >> yeah, yeah. >> [inaudible] >> i'm rob dean. i'm the editor of the santa fe new new mexican. it's an institution that's 164 years old, and we are in the offices of the santa fe new mexican. i'm also the editor of a book published in 2010 called "santa fe, it's 400th year: exploring the past, defining the future." the book had a humble beginning. it was not at first designed as a book. it began as a series of newspaper stories to commemorate the 400th anniversary of the founding of santa fe. in 1959 the publisher and editor

or of the new mexican had the presence of mind to ask a pulitzer-winning novelist to write about santa fe's history as it emerged through the pages of the santa fe new mexican. and he published a well known book called santa fe: the autobiography of a southwestern town. at that time, 110 years worth of news. the book that we published in 2010 serves as a nice book end to that volume, again, with the same spirit. the 400 years of history of santa fe was the bedrock of this series of stories that became this book. what we identified through 400 years of history is the number of themes or trends or issues that have been constant currents

through santa fe's history. it's not a seamless narrative from page one to the end. it is broken into 12 chapters. so the timeline is full of all of these small events and big events to put the history of santa fe and its episodes in context. the intersection of cultures is one of the identifying features of santa fe. its long tradition of celebrating faith and establishing diverse faith communities is another theme. of course this is a political town. this is a capital city and has been the seat of government since its founding 402 -- 403 years ago now. and so the exercise of political power and the development of public policy is another theme. the history of santa fe is

distinctive. for one thing santa fe became a u.s. territory in 1848, and it was a territory for a very long time. the country and washington were reluctant to make santa fe a state. that eventually happened in 1912. new mexico existed as a territory for so long because in so many ways it doesn't seem to fit the rest of the country. in fact, santa fe proudly for a long, long time has described itself as the city different. santa fe was, and new mexico, were explored by the spanish coming from the south to the north, not from anglos coming from the east to the west. that's one difference. this is a community that's closely tied to to the catholic church. priests accompanied spanish

settlers on their way north and establish the church. and, of course, this was a spanish-speaking territory populated mostly by people of hispanic heritage. and there were questions from the eels about what a new mexico -- from the east about whether new mexico and santa fe fit the definition of america. the flip side of that was there was a constant curiosity about whether santa fe and new mexico felt like it belonged. and there was, indeed, many episodes of resistance to federal rule in new mexico. what is going on today with the rich and diverse bodies of religion in santa fe, but we

constructed that on top of this foundation of faith being part of santa fe's history from the very start. santa fe has been the subject of many books by many writers, a diverse range of writers, and this book has a terrific bibliography for anyone who wants to read more about santa fe. >> and now more from santa fe, new mexico, home to about 80,000 people and 250 art galleries. santa fe boasts a rich historical and literary culture. with the help of our local cable partner, comcast, booktv takes a tour of collected works bookstore, one of santa fe's 17 independent bookstores. >> welcome to collected works bookstore and coffeehouse.

we're in santa fe, new mexico. my name is dorothy massey, and my daughter and co-owner have owned collected works for the last 18 of its now 35 years old as santa fe's oldest and, we think, best in the city. santa fe has a population of 80,000 people, and it supports no less than 17 independent bookstores. how does collected works and the other 16 stay afloat? it's not easy. we all work very hard at what we do, and it is a very mutually-supportive community of bookstore owners. the city itself is tricultural with an amazing amount of very well read, very literary people. we boast more authors and points, both genuine and wannabes, than most communities. and the combination of six major

musical organizations, an incredible museum system here, wonderful arts, ballet, opera. it is a rich cultural city, and the people that live here and the people that visit here come out and support that culture in all of its ramifications. the literary arts is just one of many here. i think what sents collected works apart is the fact that we really have this space, we're very fortunate to be in this beautiful space. we have the space to become a community center. and the fact that we do more than sell books. we have a very active children's program, we're not only in the schools through the rotary club and other endeavors, but we are also running our own story or or hours here two mornings a week. we have the space to do that. we have the space in the coffeehouse to donate out to

501cs all over the city for their special events. we don't charge for them. it gets people into the store, so it's not totally kindness on our part, but it does bring people into the store, and it gives the community a sense that this is their story, that they belong here and that we belong to them. very often the first thing that is said is, wow, it smells like a bookstore. [laughter] and i think people enjoy that. they enjoy the fact that we have people who really know and read the books. and book selling is very, very different from selling almost anything else. you can go into a store, and you can see a red sweater. and if you like it, you can try it on. if it looks good, you can pay for it and walk out. but 90% of the time you haven't read the product that you're buying when you're in a bookstore, so there is a great sense of mutual trust, mutual excitement, and in order to be able to supply that to the people who visit the store both

locals and visitors, we have to have a very well-read colleagues here. and there are 16 of us working here at collected works between the coffeehouse and the bookstore. i would be less than honest if i didn't tell you that it's been a very, i think the euphemism is interesting three years since, or four years since the recession. moving here, enlarging the store. and, obviously, competing head to head with internet sales which, at least in the state of new mexico, at least as we speak now still do not charge sales tax. we cannot afford to give the discounts, and we are required to collect the tax. so we're not playing on a level playing field. however, having said all of that, i truly believe that the public perception of giant corporations is changing, that people understand the importance

of supporting a local endeavor which hires local people, pays local taxes, is involved with the local community, and i am very proud of the 15 colleagues that work here with me and mary. we have a remarkable scientific community both here and, of course, in las alamos. alas, they lost their independent bookstore about a month ago. so we do a great deal with science and theory and a great deal with philosophy. this is a deeply religious city. people are anxious to know about other religions, so religion does well. this whole wall behind me is paperback fiction, and that rolls out in here on a steady basis both to locals and to visitors who want something light to read while they're traveling and nothing too terribly important. the opera breakfast meets here all winter long before the

simulcasts from the metropolitan opera which comes to santa fe along with millions of other viewers across the world. and there's a breakfast here and a lecture. so we do a lot with music; a hot hot -- a lot with art and pretty much everything. the history of santa fe is rooted in three major cultures, the native american, the hispanic and the anglo. now, that's, obviously, oversimplifying things. but each one carries a heritage that the writers are anxious to share. we boast the best of the young native american writers working today up at the indian school. we do events for them here. we boast the best of the spanish colonial art market. we sell books up at the indian

market in august which is the largest native american art market in the world, and for many years we sold books at the spanish market, again, the largest in the world. so these cultures are here, and there are only 80,000 of us. so we're all kind of falling all over each other. and the sharing and the support that is universal in santa fe makes it a wonderfully exciting place to be. from the very early days, santa fe was a mecca for artists who were free thinking. a lot of people left the more strictured societies of the east in order to practice their religion, their lifestyle, their intellectual thought, share with whatever friends or awane about thes they wanted to, and so it has always been a very yeasty place for people who are really thinking for themselves. and it is only natural that the

gorgeousness of the scenery, the light which attracts the photographers and the visual artists and then the performing artists who manage to both dance and sing at 7,000 feet bo sea level -- it's quite amazing -- but the availability of a small town makes it easy for people to become intimately acquainted with those in the arts, to serve on boards fairly quickly, to attend event, to meet artists. and the cross culture of visual arguments, performing arts and literary arts is just a natural. the venue was the -- [inaudible] theater. children came from all over the city to see it, and paul and barb at lpd press in albuquerque

produced this beautiful book. collected works sold the book at the event, and we had some leftovers. those leftovers went to the city, extra stock. it then went as a part of a sister city program welcome a local gentleman down to mexico and went to children in mexico. so there you have the literary arts, the performing arts, the educational value and the city cultural outreach all in one volume. with. >> and very often we'll get another copy for the story, and it'll sell quickly. so go to your local store, see

what they have, talk to your neighbors. >> for more information on booktv's recent visit to santa fe, new mexico, and the many other cities visited by our local content vehicles, go to c-span.org/localcontent. >> many years ago louis brandeis wrote that the most important office in a democracy is the office of citizen. democracy, of course, is rooted and based in the notion of an enlightened citizenry. some of us think democracy is defined by the ritual of voting. of course, in -- voting is important in a democracy, but voting takes place all over the world. it takes place in democracies, it takes place in dictatorships,

it takes place in totalitarian societies. voting alone does not mean that we live in a free society. we live in a free society when it is based on an enlightened citizenry that takes that enlightenment into action causing those whom we would elect to honor our ideals as a nation. >> author, activist and transafrica founder randall robinson taking your calls, e-mails, facebook comments and tweets "in depth," three hours live today at noon eastern on c-span2. >> here's a look at some upcoming book fairs and festivals happening around the country.

>> please let us know about book fairs and festivals in your area, and we'll add them to our

list. post them to our wall at facebook.com/booktv or e-mail us at booktv@cspan.org. >> the best day to be a planner in america was july 9, 2004, when dick jackson, how by frump kin and lawrence frank came out with a book called "urban sprawl and public health." and what that book finally did was put some technical epidemiological meat on the sociological bones that we plan ors have been arguing about and said in no uncertain terms the suburbs are killing us, and here's why, and cities can save us, and here's why. by far the greatest aspect of that epidemic, or i should say of our health challenges in america is the obesity epidemic. it's not that obesity itself is the problem, of course, but all the illnesses that obesity leads to, principle among them diabetes. diabetes now consumes 2

president of our gross -- 2% of our gross national product. a child born after 2000 has a 1 in 3 chance of becoming a die diabetic. we are looking at the first generation of americans who are going to live shorter lives than their parents. that's probably not a huge surprise to you. we've all been talking now for a hong time about the wonders of the american corn syrup-based diet and the 40 ounce and 80 ounce sodas that people are drinking, but only recently has the argument -- have the studies been done comparing diet and physical activity. one of them in england was called gluttony versus sloth. [laughter] another doctor at the mayo clinic set a certain dietetic regime, studied weight, started pumping calories in, and then some people got fat and other people didn't. and expecting some sort of, you know, metabolic factor at work or a genetic dna factor at work,

they found the only thing that changed was the amount of daily activity. then you go a step further, and you look at these books called the blue zones, have any of you seen -- dan buttener and the blue zones, where in the world do people live the longest? you see what they do including drinking red wine, and then you put it in a book, and you sell millions. the number one rule? move naturally. don't become a weekend warrior, don't run marathons and triathlons. don't ask people to exercise, they will stop. find a way to build normal motion into your life as part of a work routine. who's going to change their work routine so they go from being an accountant to a lumberjack? that's not going to happen. they say, well, you know, bike to work, or walk to the store. and the one thing that book if forgets to ask or forgets to mention is that in half of america you can't bike to work and you certainly can't walk to the store because you live off

of a highway that the store is off of, right? so it's fundamentally how we bill our communities in the long run, but in the short run it's about where you choose to live, and that's a choice you can make. and that's nowhere more obvious than the other big discussion, which is car crashes. car crashes are funny because on the one hand we naturalize it, we're like, oh, that's just a part of living. there's a 1 in 200 chance that i'll die in a car crash. nothing i can do about it. or alternately, we feel like we're in charge of our fate on the road, you know? we're good drivers, we can avoid the accidents. 85% of people who are recovering from an accidents that they themselves caused rated themselves good drivers. so all that's going on. but the fact is it's not the same all over the world, and it's not the same all over america. so we have a rate where 14 americans out of 100 are dying -- sorry, 14 americans out of of 100,000 are dying every of

year in car crashes. 14 out of 100,000. in england it's 5 out of 100,000. in new york city it's 3 out of 100,000. new york city has saved more lives in traffic than were lost since september 11th than were lost on september 11th. and, in fact, if our entire country were to share new york city's accident rate, we would save 24,000 lives a year. there's a big difference between urban living and suburban or rural living in terms of that aspect of our lives. and, again, in the short term we can build -- in the long term we can build places to be safer, in the short term we can decide to live in more urban environments. a wonderful study, you know, dick jackson famously asked the question in what sort of city are you most likely to die in a pool of blood, that's how he puts it to his audiences. [laughter] and they compared murder by strangers, crime, to car crashes

and added the two together. and portland, vancouver and seattle. in all three places you were 15% safer in the grittiest inner city than the leafy, wealthier sub you ares because of the combination of those two. and we move to the suburbs for the safety of our children. and finally, asthma. who talks about asthma? it's three times the rate of the '90s, and it's entirely due to automotive exhaust. i mean, 90, whatever, percent. you know, pollution isn't what it used to be. the sickest places in america are those places which are the most car dependent. and, you know, in phoenix you've got four months out of the year that healthy people are not suppose today leave their houses -- supposed to leave their houses because of the amount of driving that's going on. so again, what's the solutionsome the city. finally, the most interesting discussion may be the environmental discussion which has turned 180 degrees in the

last ten years. you know, if you look at the -- even within the global warming discussion, you talk about carbon footprint and the vulcan project which maps where our carbon foot prints are, you know, red is bad, green is good. you look at the united states, and it looks like the satellite night sky of the united states. hottest around the cities, cooler in the suburbs, coolest out in the country, right? but that measures co2 per square mile. in 2001 scott bernstein at the center for neighborhood technology in chicago said what happens if instead of measuring co2 per mile, we start measuring per person or per household? because there are only a certain number of us, and we can choose toly in places where we -- to live in places where we pollute more or less. if you look at per household, the red and green flip, and by far the healthiest place you can live is in the city.

manhattanites use a third of the electricity of people in dallas. why? well, they're heating and cooling their neighbors, right? their apartments are touching. but even more importantly than that is the less driving they're doing. transportation is the greatest single contributor to, um, most civilians' greenhouse gas. you know, in our daily lives the biggest choice we can make, you know, when i built my house in washington, d.c., i cleaned the shelves on the solar water heater, i got the super insulation, i got the bamboo flooring, i have a wood burning stove that supposedly a log burn anything my wood burning stove contributes less co2 to the environment than if it were left to decompose in the forest be naturally. ..

>> from jefferson on, cities, the moral scum of health and the freedom of man. if we can continue to pile up on ourselves as they did in europe we shall take to eating one another as they do there. that was jefferson. its continued and continued. it made sense back in a 1700 where we have the whole country spread out, the biggest part of transportation was fertilizer. that's not the case do. all three of these are longer discussions. but they are all national crisis. we have a national economic crisis, which is only going to get tougher.

we have a national health crisis, and as sandy proved all too clear a couple weeks ago, global warming is beginning to affect us dramatically. now we are not talking about stopping it. we are talking about mitigating it. the more we can become an urban society, the more we can do to solve this problem. at the center of our challenges as a nation. >> you can watch this and other programs on line at booktv.org. >> here's a look at some of the latest headlines around the publishing industry this past week.

>> stay up-to-date on breaking as the authors, books and publishing's by liking us on facebook at facebook.com/booktv, or follow was on twitter at booktv. you can visit our website booktv.org and click on news about books. >> and now another interview from the university of pennsylvania. stephanie mccurry sat down with booktv to discuss her book, "confederate reckoning" which looks at the internal politics of the south during the civil war and influence that southern women and slaves had on the war's outcome. it's a little under half an hour. >> "confederate reckoning" is the name of the book. power and politics in the civil war south. the authors history professor

stephanie mccurry of the university of pennsylvania. first of all, professor mccurry, what is this painting on the front of your book? >> this is a civil war painting of a battleship going down, the confederate flag going down in flames. it's not a military history but i think it tells you a little bit about what the book is about. >> if he would, start by giving us the demographics of the south in 1860s. >> that's a crucial question because they went to war, tried to make this new nation. they were smaller than the union to start with, roughly 10 million people compared to the union 22. that was already a tough ro roao hoe, but i think the military sends that, it is as much attention to as it should be is 4 million of those 10 million people were black and enslaved. so when it came time to mobilize the war, they can have access to 10 million people. they have access of the white

population 6 million, women, many of whom were under age. so the demographics were tough to start with. >> how many white males at that point in the confederate south? >> him i tried to figure out how many men who are of voting age. that would be the link between voting and soldiering was very tight in the 19th century. and i figure there's about one and a half million military age, voting age whitening. military age starts out smaller than that, 18-35. by the end of the were its 15-55. >> what advantage going into the war, civil war, besides cotton and you hear about cotton. we've heard about that for years. what are the advantages, what would be advantages for the south? >> i think it's hard for moderns to figure out how they thought they could do this. as lee said when he surrendered

they were overwhelmed by the numbers of men in arms as an industrial northern agricultural south, a free labor north, a safe labor so. two-thirds of the capital of the south was enslaved human beings. so they don't have, when they went to me confederate seal, they did not have the capacity to make it. it's a great question. it's easy to list all the things they don't have. i think what they did have was a lot of confidence in their own political endeavor, and a lot of faith that just as they've made the united states what it was between 1787-1860, that they could secede and makers of the country independent, nation state, and that they could build a proper nationstate in the 19th century since of the word, on the basis of cotton and slaves. they talk about this a lot at the time as the session. and for the first couple years of the war they compare themselves to other european

countries in terms of population, natural resources, the value of the tree. they were riding high. i think the confederacy is often misunderstood. we tend to think of it as sort of a defensive me. they were losing any union. they decided to take this gamble. they did take a gamble that they were the only slaveholding class in the 19th century world who did it. the brazilian slaveholders didn't do it. why did these guys do it? that's a real interesting question, and i try to explain in the book what was the mindset. is completely fascinating to get inside the mind of this incredibly powerful, not just in terms of social power and wealth, but political power of this elite. there used to running the united states and they really did not doubt their ability to do this separately. so the confidence is there, and it's a big piece of the story. >> was their overwhelming support for secession amongst

the south? >> no. if they're really, really interesting political campaign. i've written about three or four times in my life and i never cease to be amazed. karl rove would have been impressed. they needed, i mean, most of the elite, political elite, only a third of white adult men owned slaves in the south at this point, and most of them didn't own very many, but the political elite that was orchestrated this, especially in the deep south, they were asked in a confident that they could do this, and they believed that it would be able to pull it off. and they didn't have any trouble aligning each other, but the real challenge for them was that this was theoretically a white man's democracy. every adult white men got to vote. there weren't many property qualifications less. so they have to do this by in electoral means. they had to sell it, they had to win an election. and they were not at all confident about that, and i was in a credible amount of violence

and intimidation. it was also and even here in south carolina they pulled it off. they called a convention and voted of secession. by lunchtime on the first day. completely unanimous. that's how they went out of the union. but what had preceded that, when you any meeting and every thing isn't unanimous, don't you get suspicious? i mean i do. there was a lot of back stories how they pulled that off. other places, the back story really show. in alabama, the up country representatives just charged that they were going to run other union, democracy was being completely violated, people in virginia look at what's happening in the deep south and said, no ordinary farmer has voted for this. the elites have run us out of the union without the proper consideration of democratic process. and it really was. i think it's interesting, of

what democracy was and meant in a slave regime in 1860. they call that a democracy, although sometimes they often make the case, especially a political elite, what they really wanted was our republic. antidemocracy was -- that's part of the reason they want out of eating. did not like that direction electoral politics is going to have to play that game to get secession star and a strong arm through in numbers of states come in after south, remember, the normal democratic process did not yield this session. none of those upper south state seceded into fort sumter was fired on. and even then there were eight upper south states come in for them succeed and for them didn't. so the completely split. it was incredibly decisive. it meant the confederacy ended up fighting with 11 slave states, is that right? 70 south and four, 11 instead of

15. the row 15 slave states in 1860, only 11 states they confederacy. you already see this breaking off of a part of the south, the slave south. never put its faith in the confederacy spend the jefferson davis ever when national elections because he was a senator, but what -- he was nominated in a constitutional convention as a moderate in montgomery, alabama, in februa february 1861. and i don't think he ever did stand for election. one of the things that americans think is that the confederate constitution -- one of the things they are told is the confederate constitution was robbed of the us constitution. but it wasn't. they made a number of crucial changes and one of them was they had one term executive, and i believe it was five years executive term. so they avoided reelection. >> professor mccurry, was

there a lot of political infighting during the war in the south? >> yet there was. there were no formal political parties. i mean, one of the things that's interesting about the confederacy is it so quickly was on the ropes, a lot of things that were planned and never really materialized. and there was political opposition but it was in a click kind of for the theoretically everybody was a democrat. there wasn't the republican party. no republican party ticket offered in a south. you couldn't vote for lincoln. certainly in the deep south. i think in virginia you could vote for lincoln, but they were all aligned with the suddenly of the democratic party. and during the war, opposition cliques arose and some of them were profound opposed to the davis administration on very good grounds that the davis administration was one of the most centralizing federally concentrated power regimes of

the entirety of american history. one political scientist who looked at this, look at the union government, the structure of the states and the federal government with any union, and the structure of the states and the federal government and the confederacy. and he said the confederacy was the leviathan state. and he said united states nevada government that big and that top down into the new deal. so they seceded on state rights and then they had to build, pursue to because they had to build this enormous central state apparatus. they conscripted within a year. i mean think about that as a statement of state power. they conscripted within you. they passed tax income in taxes within basically a year. and they had agents at the federal government all over the south, literally taking food out of people's barns, for the only way they could feed the army. they impress men slaves, which was an enormous fight. that's a fascinating part of

this story, huge slaveholders go to war to protect slavery. and then they find out they think the new government is there to protect their slaves and more. him but it turns out the federal government wants to and needs to use those slaves to win the war. just enormous puzzle between the slaveowners and the confederate government. they also wrote a cause in the constitution that said that congress could never abolish slavery. so they literally had a problem of sovereignty. they couldn't even reach the slaves as male bodies to use of military labor for example, the they couldn't use them without permission of the owner. they had codified in an ambiguous terms status of slaves as private property. they have to live with that, and can you imagine a lot of the slaveholders were mortgaged up to the eyeballs. they were not interested in sending their slaves off to go force with 20,000 other slaves, all them were talking about what the war was about, what the

angle, what it meant have a powerful ally. and affect one of the engineers on the works in virginia said that slaves don't like to do this work, and they know they don't like to do it for personal reasons, but they also know they don't like to do it because they don't want to get any labor that will thwart the union, but they see us fighting for their emancipation. so that's a fascinating -- one of the things i love stories in his book that i think of the most interesting are the watching the psychology of the slaveholders change. these are people who are so accustomed to thinking of slaves as human beings of a sort, but one whose desire or of judges have no meaning for them. they are just instruments of the masters business. and will to some extent, and from the minute lincoln is elected they start noticing a difference in the behavior of their slaves on the plantation. one of the things i did that is different that most historians of the war is i use the plantation records to watch

these guys can start at saint slavery is an element to strengthen the war, you can put every white man in the army because with all these slaves to grow the cotton into the dirty work of the army, and assumes they try to do that, they come up against these planters who won't send slaves to the army because they are already in rebellion on the plantation. guiding them up the river, guiding them through swamps, it's completely fascinating that schuman struggle for, the seizing of the leverage of history by slaves and the highly intimate nature of that struggle with their owners, slave men and women and children, is just an amazing part of this story. not one that often makes into the documentaries, and it's very fine-grained. but on a human level is absolutely epic and compelling. >> stephanie mccurry, what about the role of white women during the founding of the confederacy and the war itself?

>> this is one of the things that i'v i have worked on my whe career, sort of feel this heavy weight of history as a historian to say, are we really going to go on the 21st century and write history like women don't matter, that they don't also attempt to shape the present and the future? in the confederacy, at the time of secession what, obviously women don't have a vote. that doesn't mean they don't have political opinions, right? but the interesting thing is they get made into the symbol of the nation of patriotism and the people who are for secession say all the women are with us, and people who are against secession, they said all the women are with us. and, in fact, they divide along the same lines as mindy. there are many women who are very pro-confederate and become increasingly so as the war goes on. there's many yeomen and white women who think this is a crazy idea. an elite women, too, worried about their sons, sometimes more rational and pragmatic about

what war is going to bring. not glory but death. but the really big moment at which women step into the making of history in the confederacy has to do with the question you asked me at the beginning about the demographics. you know, they go to war against the union, and we know that especially after mcclellan, when grant and sherman were running the show, especially in the west and then in the east, one of the union tactics was to just bring more and more and more and more men in and to press the confederacy simultaneously at a lot of points. this was brilliant because what it did was refuse them the ability to move a limited number of been around. and the pressure of the numbers on the confederacy, you can track it inside the war department correspondent. the conscription rate, the rate of service, military service in the confederacy among white men come historians think with

somewhere between 75-85% of military age men. of service, a combination of constriction and voluntary. not many other examples in history. when i tell people, my colleagues in european history that, they say are you sure it was that high? by the end military age was 15-55. so what do you think the so called homefront looks like with 85% of men gone? women describe it as stripped of men. the other thing to keep in mind is you keep an agricultural country. when manually, women have to go into the fields, which they always worked in the fields. not only women up worldwide in ordinary farm women, they always worked in the field but they had the labor. they would supplement the labor of their husbands or adult or teenage sons. now they're doing it all on their own. one of the main things i write about in this book is the way women become in a sense political persons that the

government has to reckon with, especially at the state level governors. because they start to beseech the government with letters, initially telling them tales of woe about how they're struggling to make food and survive on the homefront. but these letters start out what kind of begging letters and then they get really angry and threatening, we will bring the dessert is down on you. we will bring the guerrillas down on you. and in the end, the confederacy really has a starvation level food crisis in the spring of 1863. and when it happens they know it's coming. governors and county clerks are writing each other and writing the davis, secretary for comment saying you can't take any more food out of these counties for these -- these people are starving. the women step in at that moment to represent the communities, and they start really attacking the confederate government about the justice of its military policy. the rich man's war, poor man's

fight really becomes a women site as well. men are not home. the women step up. they really started we row power on homefront. they make themselves as powerful constituencies of state, and county officials have to take account of. and in the spring of 1863 there is a wave of food riots that start in atlanta. and for a month, i think is more than a dozen food riots sweep the confederacy. all by women, armed and women numbering from like a dozen in richmond, its 300, followed by a crowd of 1000 other people. everybody, the presentation thinks it's a conspiracy. they have conspiracy theories. the union is are making this. it's not that it's women. and in richmond the mayor and guided the women in municipal court, and all court records are there to show one woman organized this, called all these women come is being planned for at least 10 days.

she called all these women to a public meeting at a baptist church. she told them to come to the market the next morning, to leave their children at home and to come armed. and 50. they showed up the next morning and they ripped up the war. in the warehouses in richmond. for a month the confederacy was convulse. davis tried to stop the telegram lines of the news would not get to the union. it got out. the union was gloating over this. this must be in, right? the women are up in arms. so they step into the making of history i think at that moment in a really decisive way, and they really put the confederate states and government on notice that if they take them in, they're going to have to answer to them. and it's a really interesting and important political moment for the confederacy and for the training. >> what was the level of desertion, do you know? >> i don't remember the numbers,

but it's higher than the union of the union also has a desertion problem. you know, i think the desertion -- the confederacy struggled mightily with this desertion. and they struggle with unionists, armed unionists guerrilla bands to go states that told you about in the upper south that did stay with the confederacy had a lot of unionists activity within the. when the davis administration makes the governors go after all these men who were refusing to serve, or who have deserted, as in campaigns, they try a clemency. they try all kinds of things, but they also send out troops after them to bring them back in. and when the going to look for them, they can't find it because the deserters are not staying at home. they are in the woods hiding him and the only people they can find are the women. and they tortured him for information about the whereabouts of them in. i don't know if you've ever read

or seen the novel cold mountain or seen the movie, but it uses documents from the north caroline archives that i have read which really described the torture of unionist women, to try to extract information about the whereabouts of their men. and in many cases they find those men. sometimes they execute them. just on the road. of the times they bring them and subject them to various kinds of procedures and put them back in the army. yeah, they have to -- they have so few men to start with. then they have to use units. they are constantly deploying troops to prevent slaves from running away to the enemy and joined the union army. they also have to divert troops to contain the deserters. they don't have any extra troops. so the pressure on the of numbers, by the end, by late 1864, i think the 1863 the secretary of war says there are

no more white men to be had. and at that point the conversation starts years about whether they have to use black soldiers. bizarre, but i think the perfect arc of justice from slavery as an element of strength to we have to consider in anticipating slaves to force them to enlist in the confederacy. so that's another story i tell in the book is they don't contemplate emancipation out of the goodness of their heart. a lot of people think that the confederacy chose independence over slavery because by the end, some people were willing to enlist black many army. but the confederate congress was used to write and emancipation clause. so you can imagine how much of a nonstarter that was. but that's a desperate they were.

the demographics that you asked me about at first are intimately connected with the political challenges. and i think the political failure of the confederacy. and one other thing i try to get in the book in focusing the civil war story on the confederacy is to ask, you know, let's talk about the confederacy for a change, not just the union, and ask why did they do this? what was their vision of the future to take seriously the confederate project? but also to take since the best oracle reckoning that came with this session. and i think in the end, to say that yes this is a store of military defeat, but that's intimately connected to the political ambition and the political editor of the national indie pendants project, in part not simply because of what the union did but because of their own people. many people still talk about white southerners, but in the

20% and when we write this history of a talk about the south, we're talking about the white women. we're talking about the enslaved men, women and children. what i'm trying to do by bringing human beings into the story and using these records to bring them to life is to say, all of these people i did part and the fate of the confederacy, not just the union army. but it was the connection between the actions within the confederacy and the military pressures that were coming from the outside that really explains what happens. >> "confederate reckoning" one the frederick douglass book prize, and it was a finalist for the pulitzer and a university of pennsylvania talking with history professor stephanie mccurry. thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> up next on booktv, "after words" with guest host russell wild of the "saturday evening post." thisk