their hands and saying it's the end of the world. [laughter] but compare with that 350,000, 700,000 books were self-published. twice as many books are produced by independent authors who put them online and have something to say. now, you might claim that there's a lot of garbage among that 700,000 books, but i think there's a lot of good stuff as well. so i really feel that if you look at the publishing industry -- i don't know if you would agree -- we are witnessing a transformation in its structure. so some of the middle, intermediaries are moving out, and somehow the public is moving in in strange ways. ..

slot machines, other properties, but the "lord of the rings" act as a means to understand complex politics and international relations. our guide took us today says that it can, and he's recently read a book. patcher james is a professor at university of southern california and the director of the center for international goodies. his book is right here called

"the international relations of middle-earth: learning from the lord of the rings." welcome, pat james. >> guest: thank you, maria. >> host: before weakening to the politics politics of middle earth, why the "lord of the rings" rather than another narrative to explain their theories of international relations. the short answer is that extraordinary completeness and complexity as the world. if you took all of jarrett talking ratings you the most completely specified value ever created. for example, full languages that one can speak details so accurate that you can chart raises have been at different types in the storyline and absolutely correct. the reason i say that is the complexity of this story isn't have to radically human history south. >> host: "lord of the rings" has for 10 languages. how many different species and

storyline and themes? >> guest: the answer depending on how one would measure such things, literally thousands of the movies, which collectively were something like 11 hours long nature significant interest in carrot to resent plot lines are literally not tension at all. it would probably go want to see series for several years. >> host: let's talk about this themes. justice and order, how are these exemplified in the "lord of the rings"? >> guest: it is a constant struggle between the two. often more when you have, the more i'm just vice versa. we look at particular storylines and situation to see how those things trade-off because a person reading the book, if you will come anyone taken us up and saying it is to get a sense of

an international relations about, the conundrums and trade-offs that we struggle with a rate they are for you and me and the real world. but given the time machine. you are william jefferson clinton come extremely popular yourself, you are in trouble with the public and the congress is in the process of falling to republicans. do the right they never wanted to set and a small and cheap for us to strike down the genocide or alternatively, do you forego justice and preserve your own political position by instead staying out of rwanda and remembering the public was still pretty mad about the debacle in somalia. that question answers itself, just as traded off against each other. >> host: what about the book? >> guest: b.c. an extraordinary black-and-white struggle. this is not for people who like

shades of gray in the third three treacherous villains. at the same time the response in the penultimate struggle between good and evil, they are entrenching characters who have twists and turns and then benefit wanted to concentrate on someone, probably the race place to start is column/spiegel, the most interesting and asset character in the book. >> host: let's address a black-and-white issue because this is the case for scholars like me, we want to get our audiences to think about things in gray. does this black-and-white idea of defeat that? just go it's a wonderful throwback, maria, to a world -- remember much of this desert and the first half of the 20th century. this in some ways is an assault on moral relativism. if you read the story, you will see the characters are often

tormented. wants to preserve the safety of his people in the land of condor, but is also struggling with the means towards doing not. in his case, for instance he finally gives in to his darker nature and pace of this lifetime endangers the entire mission of the so-called fellowship of the ring and their receipt giving end to evil resulting in a very bad outcome. >> host: you mentioned column and he said he exemplifies -- >> guest: he exemplifies within human teacher that there is no absolute determinism. all of us have potential for good and evil. he's been marketed for viewers who have a sense of who is, that he has this extraordinary high-tech character who has a

jacqueline hyde personality. the goal is who he once was originally appeared a delight to the hobbit creatures among the most important protagonists. he has his darker side who is synthesized with the very evil ring of power, jeopardize the safety of the entire world and often throughout the story, crucial developments go back and forth in terms of whether the cynical part can stay strong enough to resist the fellowships members, frodo in particular, character we can talk about or rather regrettably the darker side takes over and threatens the world. >> host: you've also written in the book about how gollum represents a paradigm or model and internationalization in the imperialist model. how is that so? to >> guest: yes, that's right. in the story then briefly, alum

murders another character who is a friend when they're fishing. the first act of evil that the ring causes because of its own inherent evil is the murder is legal by gollum. what does that have to do with colonialism? the river folk are simple creatures who live by the river, lake to fish coming up in this high-tech device in a fantasy world, the wing is the w. in d., the weapon of mass destruction as soon as it is subject into the simple location of the river folk, what happens, colin murders his friend, a successor to ring and use his magical powers to disappear becomes cannibalistic, reminiscent ultimately over 500 years of unnatural extended life due to the fact that he has the ring commits many heinous acts. this can be seen as a comparison to the effects of very high-tech elegies going into parts of the

world they were innocent and pristine and causing terrible things happen. some people over the book that way. >> host: that is one of the many ways of looking at internationalization city of characters representing the other models. relive some, liberalism, who do you see as representative realism? >> guest: realism to form the progressive cause offense of realism is a sense that people live for the gain of power relative to others that they want to ask you that they are imperialistic. a storyline example involving the two wizards who's gone over to the dark side has been overtaken if you will by raising power versus the unofficial leader of the free peoples have a terrible concentration in the jargon, people who encounter are often turned out, but a concept

such as bandwagoning plays a key role in offense of realism is that it is appropriate for me to bandwagon, rolled down the hill and join the side that's winning. if you see the movie and read the books, nicks on impassioned plead, which is just extremely dishonest in which he's going to win anyway, let's do that. this communicates a very old concept and one with a lot of staying power in international relations that we see bandwagoning. smaller states join and with hitler's germany during its release of conquest rather than pontificates him, fairmont, the wizard on the dark side and wagons with the evil an incredibly powerful farm, where he speaks for another version of them called out on seeing is that both are about power, but how you choose to deploy your power.

he says let's cavemen and divide the spoils and he says very unwise, let us thoughts against him because he does not share power. >> host: you said candle for the book was a representative of what we call in political choice and yet wouldn't have rational choice. i that's winning? >> guest: the answer is that they calculate properly, the correct answer is no because they also can look ahead rather than being myopic and say we cannot did as then it may sound great to be in the so-called winning team, but this is very much like winston churchill's end. we back to help her here, siding with someone that is bandwagoning with him in the fantasy world is a lot like feeding a crocodile, hoping they will eat you last. the rational thing to do is to join the weaker side and try to

balance because either you must as one of the american revolutionary said, you must hang together or hang separately. >> host: my favorite monoliths construct that some. how can we see the international relations theory of constructivism and the "lord of the rings"? >> guest: the answer is receiving so many places because to do this in a way that we do in the book, we avoid technical jargon discussions. constructivism is about studying ideas and saying it's not just guns and tanks and planes that matter. it's the power of ideas and if we look at the story of the "lord of the rings," here is one example of this that key actors, i've mentioned a few nsa complex story, so bear with me as they bring in more of them. if you look at a character like frodo, the ring bearer, he is

looking at the world around him and don't notice he can introduce multiple theories of a single character. he has to come up with an idea about what this world is all about. is it about black and white, good and evil. he must construct the world and as he grew up in this very idealistic throwback to early modern england, his pastoral place called the shire. there's no ugly as she marry or industry must reconstruct is here because here is his initial view until he begins to have his adventures and gets involved in the "lord of the rings" story. who cares about that. it doesn't concern us here in the shire. many of us call that a construction that isolationism or as he begins to construct a more liberal, cooperative worldview as then i must join with this fellowship because even though we hobbits, we creatures who live in our sample shire would like to stay there

and would like to be left alone, that is that realistic anymore. so he berenson discovers and changes his worldview and so to other companions of his could follow their storylines in the above in the same way. there's a famous line or one that really like from the two towers movie and book, or one of fergus hobbit companions is speaking to the splitting tree type creature and they are trying desperately to persuade these scans to be helpful to come into things. they are not sure this concerns than in the care of her shouts, you are part of this world and it causes them to look back at themselves as then they had actually allowed themselves to fall out of it. they had constructed a shell around themselves, but here's the problem. it doesn't always hold true. the shell can break down and the

forest burns. >> host: it's all interconnected. >> guest: it is interdependent. do not try to pretend especially under conditions of globalization that there are little airtight compartments in this world and we can stay in one and keep the rest of the now. >> host: let me remind listeners for your speech went patcher chains and the book is called "the international relations of middle-earth: learning from the lord of the rings." this is the scholar circle. i am maria armoudian. the critical theory, how do you find critical theory and the lord the rings? >> guest: critical theory to give you a sense of what it's all about is not in the sense of newton or galileo to explain our universe like a natural scientist, but is looking more as a philosopher might in terms of what is right and wrong. so how in this fantasy world,

other than critical theory. what is so fascinating as you will find theories created recently long after his death in 1970s that amazingly enough, storylines represent every character should talk about someone who doesn't make it into the movies and the famous old man willow. he's kind of a cantankerous to the ants. these truly creatures to join the good guys and help out. old man willow is quite nasty and mean in the storyline that's left out, we see him trying to devour the little hobbits early in their time away from the shire. they're so quite ignorant of the outside world. he laid down at the roots of the tree and unfortunately because they are not aware of such things, they risk being devoured

by merrill to dallas. word is critical theory coming? intruded in his domain called the old forest always mean trouble. what do they do? paper in the trees, chop them down here this is critical theory expressed in terms of environmentalism. old man willow seems like a villain. he is trying to devour hobbits, bonelli transport ourselves to his domain. what is happening to him? people come into this territory, even right next to his doorstep and they pull and cutting head or his relatives down. old man willow is a centime creature, so it encourages from a critical theory standpoint to step out of the idea that trees firewood waiting to happen our fireplace. for example we might want to rethink what we are doing with

the amazon. >> host: and also brings in the issues of justice and the entire system to be either just her and just in feeds into conflict. >> guest: you are absolutely right. it's an interesting struggle between myself and a wonderful collaborator, maria is i think a claimant with albert l., a very fine scholar at tree in three and one point of her career and is more devoted to critical theory, why much more on the colony fuel natural science tastings. she's more interested in justice. i'm are interested in order, not to the exclusion of the others. the book is written in a sense was not an explicit debated always encourages the reader to say now that you've been thinking about order for the last 10 pages per minute will have to think about justice and vice versa. >> host: bicmos or author who

integrated feminism? >> guest: yes, i am more known as an exponent of what is called rational choice theory replication of economic models to the study of politics baris at the is quite expert on critical theory, in particular gender-based analysis. were obviously as different as you could get premise that each one serves as a naturally wonderful credit for the other, completely confident to say he went too far there. the book in other words tends to have in my humble opinion, a very pragmatic and balanced sense between order and justice. and then we do not excessive or justice to the point where everybody always has the same things all the time. at the same time we are not so callous that we want order badly enough that we don't care if one person has everything. the tricky thing is where is that appropriate balance in that

context? >> guest: do you have a sense the "lord of the rings" allows that debate to come through? >> guest: precisely if you look at the hierarchy of power yet different races, called and asked me cities, these units, the al's who are long-lived, very distant and also they have flaws such as being condescending and somewhat self-absorbed. at the other end of things, powerful creatures, you have the hobbits or a pint sized, physically not very strong and not very knowledgeable with a few exceptions about the outside world. much more fantastic creatures create weakness is, towards who are short but powerful and credible engineers, but here is their flaw, their disgust with wealth. notice the problem that they might not care much about justice as long as they have a

lot. they have characters that go over the edge into the so-called oryx and here we go back to the question of moral relativism. they have redeeming characteristics and that is an extreme character to have. they are creations and tormented, if you will, elves. >> host: and quirks you described is part of the realist model prototypes. how are they? >> guest: there's a memorably evil or who is a very exciting confrontation with one of the most horrific characters. he's the king in waiting, leader of the free people, and eventually the good side wins. he is a confrontation with the leader of a high brick stronger than normal and capable of

traveling in daylight. these rather miserable and abdominal creatures support the sun and the particular type of work does not in the group i leader epitomizes realism and that he goes on a murderous rampage. all he cares about is offensively destroying his enemies. in other words, he's monomaniacal. he wants power and to destroy things and it does not have any concerns for justice. to him, order is dominate and the free people stride. >> host: he almost sounds like he belongs in another model, the traditional imperialist model. >> guest: essentially an historical version of a sense of realism and the higher imperialism in the 19th century, the great powers of europe sailed the seas, took over within a bad rating of charles darwin saw is extremely theory are people, colonize

them. they didn't understand places and is quite ahistorical to pick on them too much for what they did. but you can look at a sort of neocolonial type of assessment through these rampages and in particular, going into places and savaging them that it previously been undisturbed. another storyline not in the movies, a very dark episode that a bit anticlimactic called the scouring of the shire. what happens for the hobbits in this wood is the movie, so they didn't put it in. people know the spoiler on this, of course the good guys have to win or ap be too depressing. when the hobbits go back to their ideal up shop or it's not in the movie. it's been taken over by decrepit reduced version of the evil solemn man. he and his minions have created

an ugly industrial shyer. it's filthy, polluted, wonderful novel is full of industrial waste. there's smoke everywhere. in a sense, what this is pointing out about war and its consequences is there is no the jury without also loss, that the shire when they come back have to fight another rearguard doddle to the story occupying force of evil men and they do. the hobbits not because of their battle are able to come back, the four of them who returned for the great adventure come back and lead a hobbit rebellion. things are repaired come to some hobbits have died as a beautiful things in particular, if you recall the bridge between the hobbit and the "lord of the rings," there's something called a party tree that has been destroyed and turned into firewood. >> host: and i said your coworker wrote the feminist

chapter, but you've got an entire chapter and another. the "lord of the rings" didn't have much presence of women at all and i wonder if that is part of the feminist critique of international relations theory as well. >> guest: to give women even a smidgen of airtime, they have to change storylines. in the book, for instance, the samoan herbal steam for the character, if you look the the part ultimately isn't all that and she does not rescue frodo from the dark writers, when he's been stabbed, he's going to turn into a ghastly zombielike creature. he needs desperately to get to where the elves have their sanctuary and a very powerful medicine. he's rescued by the beautiful are winning the movie, the other themed course and rescues frodo in the book version.

i was character is really pumped up in the movies compared to wish he would be in the books and other characters, the few female characters that matter is not exaggerated. we haven't mentioned her yet. she's arguably the most powerful entity unless i were on can get the rain we've been talking about. if he gets it, all the world full text 10. collateral possesses a second hearing in this incredibly powerful, very wise, some elements of migrating powers as well implied. she's powerful and important. the leading character in the book is quite fascinating. you think a lack of this book was written. she is, if you will come as close as you can get to be in a few assorted female ivanhoe knightly character. she wants to fight alongside the men. she's quite vigorous and capable of doing so, but they won't let her. she actually has to disguise

herself and assume the identity of a phony night who becomes a warrior from her kingdom, being allied with the principal kingdom we've been talking about. the people are writers. they were madura people who would live in a baking environment and they are grey horseman and she actually has to describe herself and she plays a crucial role in a very big battle scene in the movie. if she isn't fair, there is a saying about these black writers and the leader cannot be killed by a man. he is ultimately slain in a small hot bit who's not going to be allowed to fight either. the feminist critique as there are women who can do things that men can do. here is where some of my feminist friends who get annoyed me that does something.

this is called liberal feminism. the ideas that you and i spent people opportunities opportunities as should everyone and you might then try to excel in the ways i might try to excel. different variants or strains of feminism objective is seen that men are actually different and here we get into another storyline that's not in the movie, is in the books. remember i mentioned this large fantastic living trees, they are all guys. the wife/. they found her sessions with treason knowing. the whites that pardons more exciting. notice the environmentalism again, but also one strand of feminism argues the liberal model where everyone should have an equal opportunity and try to excel in a democratic capitalist societies one kind of feminism, but another win would say we

want to be different. we don't want to access with you historically have accessed over. we have different goals. even those nuances can be found in a return to my first point, how many novels have this degree of complexity who get into sub variants and refine entire carrot tours help us with them. >> host: the other aspect of this book and i should remind people it's called "the international relations of middle-earth: learning from the lord of the rings." patrick james is with us. he is the author. this is the scholar circle and i am your host, maria armoudian. you call them levels of analysis, kind of a scholarly term, but how to really understand conflict, you said in the "lord of the rings," just like in world war i, you can look at it from these various perspectives. you can look at the big