>> host: day tv is on location at american university washington d.c. and pleased to be joined by professor of islamic studies at american university and his book "the thistle and the drone" how america's war on terror became a global war on tribal islam" professor akbar ahmed, is a class of religion? >> guest: it is more complex. the concept of the clash of civilizations and others a simplistic. a and more than 10 years after 9/11 we should be aware of the conflicts where america is involved.

i find many conflicts are rooted in the clash already taking place before and 11 was centered government and the triumph of the community on the border between states. without local history or culture it is impossible to impose simplistic notions but someone did waziristan or yemen is aghast at a clash of civilizations and. 90% had no idea what 9/11 was zero or of some of did not been. would have to be careful how we are analyzing and i maintain there is a crisis

already was united states involved in a local conflict. >> host: ambassador to bases u.s. attacking their own personal try for their government? >> guest: you raised the third factor, with united states, the tribes now of the central government with a triangle of conflict that is the conflict said is often overlooked. would you include the central government than you know, it has its own relationship for some benefit and it is troubled earth these jurors south africa and asia you find this. if it is tolerant and open to give citizens the right they deserve to freedom or

education but if it surprised -- suppresses but you have problems where you see the of brutalization and gadaffi with the triumphs saw the pattern exist and we looked at 40 case studies it is a global study of what is going on in the world. >> host: take pakistan and walked us through the different tribes. >> it is the essential piece of the study because waziristan is one of the most targeted places on earth. one of them most high and

the tribal places an onerous never completely conquered it is part of pakistan but they maintain their own dependence with pride and tradition. the ordinary tribes have sound pledge yourself in the tribeca it in their skin and walkabout one day thrown about by helicopters and up to hillary than suicide bombers than travels in the fourth day by a drone strikes and incomplete desperation huge chunks of was there is stand live in the just to refugee and

every day is like 9/11. go back to the man in the village would never the debate of drones there is a dimension often missing with the impact is devastating and has been documented by stanford and new york univ. >> host: you mentioned drones in your book talks about the drone situation in washington. what is the view of drones? >> you use the word debate it is just beginning but the debate has to opposing points of view in america you only hear one side i'd

like to hear from pakistan, the kurds, us somalia for the drone strike stand what do they think. we don't hear their voices but we do in this book. they say life is sheer hell what have we done to deserve this. fe said it is like a genocide how are we to blame for some crazy guy on 9/11? fees are impoverished areas they are nonexistent and on top of that you have violence inflicted on them imagine despair in desperation this is very important to understand

tribal leadership, religious leadership of three pillars stand demolishing of people who targeted them are suicide bombers that is the capping -- decapitating the entire society in that society what do you expect the next generation to be doing and do have suicide bombers blowing themselves up in schools or mosques. it is completely a breakdown of society. it is a nation of 185 million people and it is very troubled about the

80th of the drone it is the moral:-- to mention to agitate people. >> host: teeeighteen you talk about the president having a love of drums. >> this was a "rolling stone" article which we courted and it seems with a scholarly man i would have thought he would handle it slightly differently but it has gone on up exponentially and some where we need to connect the dots how they are pressing the button and across the world women and

children people going to a funeral and have collateral damage we need to connect these very different words to say ultimately is this what we stand for or export to the world? >> how do we connect those dots? >> they have to be multi dimensional more than security and the legality with the united states often stands for morality. a certain kind of society washington so they booked as the title of that these are crucial facets' of the american vision and i think the debate will come.

>> does the u.s. have legitimate security concerns? >> it does. it was hit on 9/11 and has every right to be concerned and it has maintained security. ambassadors have been killed recently and therefore we need to be concerned at the same time the united states is more than one aspect, it represents something much bigger is symbolizes something that very few countries symbolize which is a vision of the world or society itself which is different from other societies. that is compromised when you

have these killings that genetics at the normal process of law and killed many more people. >> host: professor akbar ahmed professor of islamic studies and non resident senior fellow of the brooking institution and visiting professor at the u.s. naval academy formerly served as pakistan high commissioner to the u.k. and ireland. professor akbar ahmed are you a member of a tribe in your home country? >> guest: it is interesting question. it is critical to lay out my mother is of the tried and might father belongs to a sacred lineage going back to the holy prophet of islam.

the to and interesting in my makeup on one hand to have peace and goodwill and compassion it even in more mystical. i see this in me so when i was doing the study i could get under the skin of the tribal people because that is part of my harry tisch. so we could transcend that because it is not just one point* but the central government and the united states and the tribal people and their elements. the united states defines itself today. >> what is the role that it manufactures and

geographically? should it be split up? is a nation of tribes? >> many of these nations to our put together after the second world war. they have an ancient history and a modern history as a modern state. unless there is the internal crisis to take place 1971 and pakistan has to be very careful. some of these are exacerbated by the drone strikes. the tribal areas are in flames. it where between 35 and 40,000 people. 15 soldiers killed by

suicide bombers in turn fight their own people and muslims killing muslims creating a lot of tension in society the government is not the securely popular so there are some tension and with india on the borders and we have to always remember that combined as one point* 5 billion people. said it would be a key ally of pakistan. the interest of the united states to features the institutions of democracy was good clean bishop of to

make the process into democracy. >> how is u.s. policy in afghanistan? >> initially for all of the cynicism there was a great desire to promote democracy. the fact the american troops and arrive with very little knowledge remember i have been in the field and very successfully reach tackle problems that were major problems across the border without choosing heavy artillery. where we went wrong the sensitivities to make the task much, much easier.

with the surgeon iraq with extraordinary a sort -- soldiers like general the crystal that begin to understand the straight for a confrontation would not work. they have seen some of the greatest members of history recently favor altman be defeated. so what makes us assume we are so different? they are fiercely independent, as though had we understood the mechanics we could handle it very differently to strengthen our own footprint

education, health schemes local government i was that a former christian college members of parliament and everyone was so grateful to the americans so wire lee wasting millions and millions of dollars which in the end ends with iran haiti does? >> host: you write in "the thistle and the drone" of the survey of american and afghan soldiers this is how they view the americans americans, they always shout and yell and they are crazy and u.s. soldiers swear at us constantly it saying a

few they do not care about civilian casualties, they p all over right in front of civilians including females. >>. >> guest: this is what the americans thought of the afghan forces there turds we're better off without them i don't trust the locals they could be sleepers of whatever like to it meant iraqis are smarter but there einstein compared to afghan they only seem to care about their own tribe. >> guest: there right. that a survey gives us an insight into routes to allies who are working together soldier -- shoulder and shoulder with obvious

contempt because after a decade those who have invested billions of dollars so the troops would take over. if this is what they're thinking of what is the legacy of leaving behind? >> to the afghan understand why they're in their country? >> no. that parted the world including pakistan is a great area with access to the gas and oil fields some say geopolitics very few would say this is because

the good intentions for promoting democracy. you have a lot of mixed responses. to understand why they need to be there. critical for the united states trade on woodside and russia and the united states walked away but could we convince people that they need to be there? that is a question. >> host: but our footprint will be much smaller civic that is the choice beer making but it is a different kind of the print if you had colleges like the one that i

went to or 10 of these spread throughout the tribal areas think of a future generation the direction of the nation we value education and the lot and a compassionate civil society not the fact with missiles and drones. so the paradigm can go maybe brought up if the debate begins so i hope we act as a catalyst. >> host: professor, how does the suny shi'ah issue that we have talked about the last 10 years play into

this? >> it does a and it doesn't the last she a minority plays an important role in the army. it isn't out in the service but what suicide bombers and the taliban are doing with the extreme understanding of the suny they also target the shia. that is appalling and a complete breakdown no government can allow that but it happens. iran has a strong shi'ah power with interests in the region. that balance has to be careful if you have an understanding it can ease

the tension. >> host: molly is emerging as a battleground. >> guest: read the book it has the same paradigm just like these tribesmen, they have been marginalized resources stolen, retreated as other great citizens on their own traditional way and. there comes a point* they say even if it is enough to be killed and raped and tortured. they react it is not very civilized or educated part of the world. the only act is the primary goal to kill people with their response and then the

cycle begins again. so if you can help resolve that the philippines have taken an initiative to reach out to the tribal groups

they simply negotiated autonomy, preserve culture? find. we have no objection but that simple initiative, then human act and think of an american general doing this in front of the population and actually apologizing for the atrocities in people are saying he was in tears because he comes to the human side walking under the skin. i think we have to use other paradigms' for a sort of stability in the regions of the world.

>> host: the drones? >> remember that a drone program is covered with of suffocation darkness, all kinds of clouds, movie do know maybe they were there and another tragedy we cannot say for certain to say who is behind the creation of bombers in the tribal areas? i said why would day be wanting to blow up their own schools? without hesitation they said americans.

to have the local people you need the clarity of vision. this is a superpower driving the war on and tear. but doesn't want to communicate to them? so with light and darkness with a drone program. >> host: where did the title "the thistle and the drone" come from? >> i am a professor and i love ideas. frame a novel in which the character it accompanies the imperial army fighting the muslim tribes and he finds

half hour but it is a thistle and he says the tribes are like the fiscal. the event by a nose lee scott have great affection very much like a cecil they give a tough resistance and very often have compared to the scotsman. to their tribal areas just like the thistles they are prickly and hard. i thought it represented