>> the information may not be correct. parents want to know two things, is my child okay? and when can i pick my child up? as we go through this, about,

talking about safe schools, i've talked to only about school shootings, but we're talking about all issues that could happen at a school, tornadoes, earthquakes, any disaster affects kids, affects those students and effect affects thoe parents. thank you. >> thank you, mr. bond. >> chairman kline, ranking member miller, and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify on behalf of the national association of school resource officers. it's my honor to serve as executive director of this outstanding group of law enforcement and education professionals. nasro is a not-for-profit association founded in 1991 with a solid commitment to our nations youth. nasro is comprised of school-based law enforcement officers, school administrators

and security professionals working as partners to protect students, faculty and staff and the school community. the school resource officer refers -- i cannot emphasize enough how critical it is for officers to be properly selected and properly trained to function in the school environment. this is always a factor in the success or failure of the sro program. sro programs are most effective when they're built with collaboration. you should always be a formal memorandum of understanding between law enforcement agency and the school district. the role of the as thoreau should be based on the triad concept of school-based police and. this encompasses the strategies of law enforcement, former counseling and education. a typical day for an sro may include traffic direction, problem solving with a student, or making a presentation on distracted driving to the classroom of high school students. relationship building is

certainly an important factor in the success of an sro program. the sro must build working relationships with school of ministrations. one way of helping to build these relationships can be through the sro's role with a school safety can. can. properly trained sro's prepare to be a member of safety teams and can also take a leadership role in helping to develop teams where none exist. i spent no half of my law enforcement career in school-based policing. it was without a doubt the most rewarding period of my career. it was more than just a job. it became my life's work. i develop positive relationships with administrators, faculty members, students and parents. i became integral part of the hoover city schools district crisis team. by being a part of the school safety team, vso becomes fully engaged and pricing plan to include prevention, preparedness, response and recovery. sros can provide value to the written plans for a school district. they can also -- they can also assist with campus site

assessments as was conducting safety drills. the aspect of recovery was one that i've not given a great deal of thought to drink the early phase of my career in school-based law enforcement. it was not until the days following november 19, 2002, that it became clear to me the importance of the role that it sro can play in the recovery portion of the critical incident. didn't think about that happen at our largest high school. one student had taken the life of another in the hallway during the change of class periods. this resulted in very large crime scene that took some time to secure. the students had to remain in a modified lockdown for several hours. we all knew this was putting quite a burden on teachers in particular. however, they did exactly what they're supposed to do as they have been trained. the principal asked me to join in a faculty meeting after the students were released. i took the opportunity to praise the staff for the good work. one of the reasons faculty members were so well prepared

for an incident such as this was due to the schools commitment to maintaining a solid school safety team. i believe this faculty meeting was the beginning of the recovering process. plans were developed for the next day. we thought our most important job would be to keep this are happening again. to keep weapons out of school, to make sure that no retaliation occurred. while all of those things were important, it paled in comparison to the need of the student body to be comforted and reassured. the need for trusted and caring adults became the more important issue in this recovery process. the school resource officers were certainly still focus on security but were most heavily engaged in the mental and emotional recovery process. the reason for this is because we are much more than just a law enforcement presence. we were trusted adults and we helped to make a difference in the lives of children during the days prior to and most definitely following november 19, 2002. trained and committed police poe officers are well-suited to effectively protect and serve the school community. school resource officers contributed by ensuring a safe and secure campus, educating

students about log related topics and mentoring students as informal counselors and role models. over the last 23 years, the national association of school resource officers has become the world leader in school-based policing. we have trained thousands of officers based on the triad model of school-based policing and these officers are having a positive impact on the lives of children every day. thank you. >> thank you. mr. pompei, you're recognized for five minutes. >> my name is vincent pompei, i'm a school counselor in southern california. i started out as a middle school teacher and became a school counselor, making schools safer every student at my store is the story millions of students across america. by fifth grade, i've been targeted in a labeled as gay. i was teased, push, spit on, nicer pulled on me. my bike was stolen. i became depressed, consider dropping out of school. by 11th grade at already tempted suicide twice. by teachers looked on as i

endured bowling and homophobic slurs but i honestly don't think they know how to in inappropriate. i didn't feel safe, because i wasn't safe. i desperately needed an adult i could trust but it was far too risky to seek out support. i had no idea how to go about finding help. there was no information, not even a sticker or a poster with a phone number to call. all through those years, i searched and prayed for just one person to make me feel safe. i never found that person during those years, but it drove me to want to become a teacher, and then a school counselor, to be that person for my students. mass shootings like the one that sandy hook elementary school make headlines, but they are rare. students are far more likely to encounter gang violence, bullying and harassment in everyday life. they need access to counseling, support and other mental health services to cope with those kinds of experiences and much more. for example, when dad is beating mom, when they become homeless, when they are thinking of

dropping out, when their parents are deported. by now, caseloads have grown so much that counselors have time to put out fires, when we should be preventing them from igniting in the first place. the situation is the same for school nurses, psychologists, social workers, and other school-based mental health professionals. the recommended ratio of students to school counselors is 250 to one. and california the ratio is more than 1000 to one, a caseload not even superman could handle. in minnesota it's nearly 800 to one, and nationwide nearly 500 to one. for some of our students, especially the most vulnerable, the resulting loss of services will have lifelong consequences. in the short run, and emotional wound may be less visible than a physical injury. over the long run, it can fester and become crippling, like a cat in the skin or broken bone that is not cared for properly. meanwhile, evidence mounts of mental well being and academic

success go hand in hand. a recent meta-analysis of school-based social and emotional learning programs, more than 270,000 k-12 students were involved, should participation in such programs improved grades and standardized test scores by a loving percentile points compared to control groups. when students feel safe and connected at school but are more likely to win. yet most educators get no training. we call it professional development, in what it takes to create a school climate that bush's mental well being as well as academic success. if our nation is serious about keeping students safe, that is got to change. we must do more than react after the damage has been done. we must invest in professional developers that acknowledges the need for preventive care, a healthy, safe and inclusive school. every member of the school staff needs to know they exist. who is statistically most likely to be a target of bullying, harassment or violence. what to expect when a kid has a dramatic experience, whether it's a hurricane, violence at home, a shooting at school, or

bullying. how to counseling change the behavior of bullies or those who behave violently. every member of the school staff must be equipped t responder percolates and effectively to students who is troubled a potentially violent. instead of playing a guessing game. it should be reaching for educators t to receive instructn and training a coffee, safe, and inclusive school climate, just as it is routine to receive instruction in first aid for cuts and bruises, and what to do when someone chokes on a piece of food or struggles to learn algebra. instead of standing silently by when students shun or ready till someone who is different, school staff should lead by example, embrace diversity, address problems before they escalate. show students how to resolve conflicts in nonviolent ways using research proven strategies. and short, we need to take teaching students to be good students as seriously as we take academics. to help keep schools and students say, we must encourage professional development and

cultural competence, conflict management and at that point initiatives. america must act on what we know to be true. oui mental health system is bron intifada. between 2009-2012, the state slashed mental health spending by 4.3 billion, the largest reduction since the 1960s and 70s. now there is widespread agreement that mental health services need to be expanded and improved. to keep our students safe we got to do what research shows. mental well being is critical to academic success. we've got to provide visible signs that school is a safe place not just for some, but for all. we've got to spend more, not less, to educate and care for the whole child. on behalf of all school basement to health professionals, i thank you for this opportunity to present his testimony. thank you. >> brett bontrager, you are recognize for five minutes. mr. chairman, ranking member miller, and distinguish most of the committee, thank you for the

opportunity to testify today on the griddle issues of school safety. my name is brett bontrager. i am the senior vice president and group executive of stanley's a good solutions, which is a division of stanley black & decker. we are headquartered in any nablus, and congresswoman brooks' congressional district. while many of you know stanley black & decker for its construction and do-it-yourself products, our company has also been in the security business for many decades. it is because this expertise, decades of school experience and the proximity of our world headquarters in connecticut in relation to the tragedy in newtown that led us to be able to immediately play a role in helping the students and faculty of sandy hook. after the decision was made by the town to move the students to a decommissioned school, chalk hill, we were called in to do a survey and determine what was needed in the building to allow the students to move in and be safe, and we subsequently

installed certain products and services to do just that. while there's certainly some information on websites and in other literature regarding school safety, and products to exist and on the market to secure our nation's schools, we have not been able to find in a research a website or other single source of information that comprehensively integrates all security needs together. for school administrators, board of education members and superintendents, the daily challenges that come with educating our children and running a school district are all consuming. today, the same officials are being asked to become experts in security, and it is important to note that they don't have to be. so what is school safety? certainly no single lock or system. instead a comprehensive, integrated security package and long-term roadmap should be designed and implemented in each school, which were taken to

account the unique physical nature of that particular school. upon completion of the site evaluation and risk assessment, decisions must then be made on the level of security needed. but at its core the integrity of the mechanical solution must be maintained by levels of security am referring to security projects and products that range from essential hardware and mechanical access equipment, to wireless situation awareness monitoring and every solution in between. one clear trend the security provider see is a strong need to tie mass notification via an intercom system to a schools access control, intrusion -- intrusion monitoring system and security cameras. this allows for coordination and visibility for response teams both inside the school as well as from local law enforcement or fire personnel in the case of an emergency. lack of integration with the local first responder team can

be a critical flaw in the school security process. one specific example of a school digital we worked with the administration to customize the best solutions is one of the largest school districts in louisiana which included 6000 employees, 42000 students from pre-pre-k to 12th grade, and 66 different schools. the district encompasses urban centers, server neighborhoods, world towns and committees. in reviewing efficiencies and cost saving measures, the district determined that several of the high school campus locations were underutilized. it was decided that to fully utilize the available space and to reduce overhead costs, each facility would integrate seventh and eighth graders. this idea, however, did not come without security challenges. it was important that each of these locations be able to isolate or limit the interaction between younger and older students.

the school facilities on average were 60 years old and not built with security in mind. they were too many ways that i'm not thrice individuals could enter and leave. every school in the system presented its own set of challenges. you will see a one size fits all approach is neither practical or recommended. this hearing has started what we think should be continued national conversation on school -- on school security and safety that includes experts from the field and school officials in order to learn the best ways to protect our schools. without, thank you i applaud you in the committee for taking a leadership role on this critical issue of school safety. i know we can all agree that keeping our children safe in their schools is worth all of our time, all of our collective experience, and all of our wisdom. i am humbled that we might have a opportunity to play a role. >> thank you. dr. osher, you recognize for five minutes. >> good afternoon and thank you

for this opportunity to discuss a subject i'm important to always but i'm david osher, vice president of the american institutes for research. aar is a nonpartisan be the social science research organization based in washington. we don't advocate for any policy positions. thithis is just me to talk with evidence-based practice in hopes of helping you with your decisions. unfortunately, there are no quick fixes a reason solutions to respond to the tragedy of sandy hook, or any other school shootings that have abruptly altered so many lies. but there are steps we can take to change the school environment so that students and teachers feel safe. research shows that students and teachers perform better when their schools improved discipline by focusing student self-discipline, not external punishment, by promoting healthy behaviors that suppressing unhealthy ones, i preventing problem behaviors rather than punishment, by building connections to students, not removing him from the school community, and by coordinating services systematically, not

adding services piecemeal. safe and successful schools create positive school climates where students have good social and emotional skills, feel physically and emotionally safe, are connected to and supported by their teachers, and feel challenged and are engaged in learning. the schools do this by employing a three tiered approach to social and emotional learning, positive behavior support, the support of student and family engagement, and addressing students academic and mental health needs. for two decades have conducted research and lead national centers, studies and expert panels that focus on safety, violence prevention, the conditions for learning and support. today of lik luck to focus on se of my expenses in cleveland. i led an audit of city schools falling to 2007 shooting in which a 14 year old student who had been suspended for fighting, return to school, which had a security guard, shot to teachers and to students, and then took

his own life. the findings in our report or start. what discipline was harsh and reactive, students and faculty felt unsafe. services were fragmented and driven adult desire, not by student need, and the conditions for learning were poor. city, school and teacher union leaders embrace our recommendations and implemented a strategic three tiered approach to improving conditions for learning and reducing physical problems and violence. here's some of the recommendations we made in 2008. free up the guidance counselors and school psychologists soviet more time to counsel students. train school administrators, teachers and security staff to use positive approaches to discipline rather than reactive and punitive were approaches. to develop student, and to develop student in social and emotional competence, and to better understand and communicate with students. developed an early warning and intervention systems to identify potential mental health issues,

and employ student support teams that address the identified needs. last month we released a paper, avoid simple solutions and quick fixes, examining where cleveland schools stand today. the picture is far from perfect, but progress clearly is being made and is attributable to the district wide use of student surveys to monitor progress, employing social and emotional learning social and emotional learning in all elementary schools, transforming punitive in school suspension to planning to which students consulted for and what students learn self-discipline and by coordinating services through student support teams. we compare 28922010-11, the attendance rate increase 1.5 percentage points. there were statistically significant decrease in average number of reported behavioral incidents per school. disobedient, disruptive behavior went from 131.873.9, and the average number of cases

involving fighting, violence went from 54 to 36%. promotion and prevention are more effective, improve conditions for learning, and have less counterproductive or harmful side effects than to suppression and punishment, particularly for both students and students of color. children and youth require safe supportive schools if they are to succeed and thrive. these needs are particularly great for children who struggle with universities of poverty, such as students in cleveland were all students are eligible for free or reduced lunch. cleveland provides example of what is possible even in hard times and even under less than perfect conditions. cleveland successes are consistent with the recommendations of the interdisciplinary group on preventing school and punitive violence, a group of prominent researches on school safety which called on balanced approach that focus of student support and connectedness and stated that reliance on medical detectors, security guards, and into checkpoint is unlikely to

provide protection against all school related shootings, including the shooting at sandy hook elementary school. these recommendations are not new. they came out before in report in response to paducah and other studies, and i want to thank you for your time. >> thank you. mr. ellis, you're recognized for five minutes. chairman kline, ranking member miller, and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity speak with you today about school security issues. asked the director of the office of safety and steady with the fairfax county public schools, school safety and security have in my professional and personal focus for the last 12 and one half years. fairfax county public schools emergency management and security involve many components. emergency management planning affects both the school and the division wide perspectives and utilizes the four phase paradigm that is widely accepted, mitigation prevention, preparation, response and recovery.

each school has an individual site-specific plan that is updated each year and is reviewed by staff in the office of safety and security. these plans include such things as the identification of fiscal crisis management team, and the respective roles, standard language in response protocols for a minute -- action, integration student with disabilities and special needs into the response plan. detailed floor plans identify the location of utility cut offf from communication protocols, drills and training schedules and identification of staff with specific relevant skills. the school plan also addresses tactical considerations for command post locations. designated off-site, evacuation locations, but staging areas, errant student procedures. training is provided by required drills such as fire, bus evacuation, lockdown and tornado drills but these are supplemented by customized site-specific tabletop exercises facilitated by staff from my office. tabletop exercises and allies

and emergency event in an informal environment. they provide participants with an emergency center to analyze, identify and resolve issues as well is to prompt constructive discussion and increased awareness of the roles and responsibilities. in addition to the individual school crisis plans, the fairfax county public schools maintain individual operation plan. this plan is implement one incident overwhelms the school's ability to do with an emergency, an incident that involves multiple sites, or when the fairfax county government requests the school system to fulfill its predesignated obligations within the fairfax county emergency operations plan. examples of an activation of this plan include the response for 9/11, the incidence of 2002 and largest one incident. fairfax county public schools is intimately many security measures over the past several years to include the use of exit door numbers, access control devices at all elementary and middle schools, interoperable

radiocommunication's with public safety, visit the screen, school resource officers and all the schools. much of the efforts of my office also involve the establishment and maintenance of relationship, relationships with agencies that we work with during an incident such as police and fire, rescue department health department. and emergencies relationships our currency, having been facilitate communications and understanding of needs and roles. have to established prior to an incident and they require an ongoing effort. today, school chums with a variety of tasks, many of which are beyond historical expectations are now commonplace. educators are individuals committed to teaching and making the difference in the life of a child. their primary mission is education. they are not public safety officials but except the roles they are given in today's society. likewise, public safety officials are not always agree

with school operations and needs. school administrators and staff require training, assistance and support for the emergency management and security responsibilities they are charged with and embrace. i'm often asked whether schools anymore security measures. answer is that, ultimately, communities put a large role in determining the nature and extent of school security measures they are willing to accept and to fund. expectations need to be clearly understood and they need to be reasonable. statistically, schools remain in currently safe places for children to be. perspective, reasonableness and cost are necessary criteria for communities to use in their deliberations. i know of no school system that guarantees the safety and security, but i do know that the professionals in the education community will do all that they can recently due to maintain a safe and secure educational environment. again, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you about this important topic. >> thank you, sir. i want to thank all the

witnesses for their testimony, and for the observance of the five minute limit. that's probably the best of any panel we've ever had on this committee ever, so i trust my colleagues will follow that fine example. i'm going to reserve my questions until a little bit later in income and i would like now to go to doctor to visually for the first question. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and thank the witnesses and all in attendance for this very important hearing and topic that affects us all. as a father with a daughter in kindergarten also a freshman and a senior, i know that impact each and every one of us. mr. kennedy, can we start with you? could you tell us how a school resource officer and acts with law enforcement community during a critical incident? >> in most incidents the school resource officer is a member of the local law enforcement agency, would be the surest department or the police department. and their odyssey going to have

trained prior to that, or they should have, and the incident command, and know how to function in that role when an incident occurs so that it's i was a seamless but almost seamless in terms of their role in that. they would certainly come once incident command is established they would respond to the incident command just like everyone else. and follow the processes that the issue. >> would you say the role of a school resource officer is during a typical school day. spit welcome during a typical school day taken with very. in my testament i mentioned they may be doing traffic control one minute and a few minutes later there in a classroom teaching students about distracted driving or drunk driving, whatever it may be. there certainly visible. they certainly they're doing the job right, the engage with students. this ongoing relationship building. they are certainly, should be a trusted adult a student cam come to for information, for guidance.

so they will become a part of the team. >> and so i'm guessing from what you're saying there's quite a difference depending on the age of the students in the school? >> well, to some degree, yes or. i would say that officers in the middle school and high school area, probably their job is similar to what i just described. at the elementary level, traditionally a lot of the work at the elementary level that's been done by the sro has been in a classroom in an educational setting. >> just from discussions with educators from around my district and throughout the committee hearings over the 112th congress, certainly i think that most people who are a little older and went to school at an earlier time, recognize that there was more disciplined, more from headedness discipline in classrooms and schools than it is today. i see a lot of frustration of her teachers and principals feeling that the answer somewhat tied in your committee shape

behaviors that could prevent some of the harmful outcomes. how much of an impact you think that has, or anyone else would like to comment on that? and what we do to help bring discipline back into the schools and maybe prevent some of the tragedies that occur, not necessarily shooting, but other events? >> any officer that has been trained by our association has clearly heard that they are not to have a hand in the formal school discipline. there's not a role for officers in that. however, obviously they are walking through the hallway and they see a student doing something that they shouldn't, they should address that just like any other responsible adult. but the formal school discipline we leave to the hands of the educators. >> thank you. mr. bond, your testimony focuses a lot on post-incident recovery. can you discuss in more detail some of the issues that come up during this timeframe, that principles need to be prepared to deal with? >> after an incident, the first

thing that schools have to do is to reestablish trust with the community. if the parents do not trust the school to keep their children safe, in education is not going to take place at a high level. ..

but you have to address mental health as a whole community after a crisis. >> thank you, mr. bond. i yield back. >> i thank the yes -- gentleman. mr. miller. >> mr. pompei, do you have school resource officers in your school or schools you've worked inur district does. >> how do you interact with them? >> well, you know, they collaborate with the local b law enforcement, so it's a contract that they -- >> how do you interact if you're counseling students and have

resource officers, do you talk to one another, do you discuss students, do you tip one another as to maybe problems a student is having or not so as you go through the day you're aware of these -- >> sure. you will see an sro in the office of a school counselor quite frequently. counselors are very uniquely qualified. we advocate on behalf of the wellbeing of that student, and so we don't typically get involved in discipline. we're there sometimes to mediate, but we do remain neutral to make sure we keep that trusting relationship -- >> mr. canady, is that usual? >> i think that's very consistent. and it, it is something that -- >> have separate jobs, but you have -- >> very separate jobs, but at the same time we have the same interest, and that is the wellbeing of the student. so an sro who is not interacting effectively with their counselor either doesn't understand the job, or is not well trained.

>> mr. ellis, i think you said something very often that we say in this committee, is that schools are among the safest places in our environment for students. i wonder how we measure that. mr. pompei, you discussed there are a lot of students on campus who are living with a certain level of fear or intimidation or acts of violence against them that are undetected, unaware of. but i just -- what are we talking about when we talk about this blanket statement of safety? is that against major incidents of violation, or -- >> my reference was for homicides of youth on school property pause that seems to be the perspective -- because that seems to be the bear spect -- perspective a lot of people take. the bureau of justice statistics funded by the department of education, for instance, from 1992 through 2010 revealed a less -- [inaudible] >> mr. pompei, what happens to

incidences of bullying and intimidation? you mentioned you were growing up, the question to you're gay and how that was handled and the intimidation, the physical actions against you. how is that handled today in assessing the environment of the school, and how do resource officers play into that assessment of safety? >> well, quite frankly, it's many times on certain topics completely ignored. there's a lack of professional development that equips educators to respond effectively and appropriately using research-proven strategies to address all acts of bullying, but there are certain ones in more conservative areas that are completely ignored. so students are forced to fend for themselves. many times they don't even have the support at home. so, you know, in my district we look at research. we look at what creates a safe, inclusive, welcoming school climate, and we insure that my

educators in the district have the professional development so they could then all act together in making sure that all students feel safe, welcoming. another thing that school counselors do that's unique if i could share is we'll work to change those baers. so while the principal -- behaviors. so while the principal may order a suspension, the school counselor will work with that student to curb that behavior so they don't continue to bully and are using different ways to deal with their anger or their aggression. >> mr. osher, that's sort of along the lines of what you discussed, the changes made in the cleveland district in terms of internalizing these discussions between faculty, counselors and students and then forcing out some -- portioning out some responsibility and discipline. >> that's right. if i can connect your questions here, i think the real challenge in schools is not the high -- the low incidence in very traumatic events that we want to

prevent, but it's also low level aggression that takes class consistently and persistently as reflected in bullying statistics and things like that. and i would add to the issues that schools are safe, but if one looks at the 2009 institute of medicine report, one of the points they make is there are school effects. and if i'm a gay student in a school where i'm being treated a certain way or a vulnerable student and feeling disconnected, that has mental health implications that are harmful to me and can effect the course of my life. these can be's addressed by social/emotional learning, they can be addressed by doing something that actually is taking place at sandy hook which was a program like responsive classrooms. we have class meetings at the beginning of the day that really connect young people and teachers and enable people to really act with each other in a respectful, healthy and

academicically-productive way. cleveland is actually move anything the same direction now. they're trying to create class meetings to connect people on top of the social/emotional learning so you can build a fabric of community that holds people together. >> thank you. >> thank you. dr. hecht. >> thanks, mr. chairman, thank you for providing us with your experiences and recommendations. i understand the approach to comprehensive approach to decreasing school violence is a lot more than just talking about gun violence. i want to concentrate on the gun violence issues n. the wake of columbine which seemed to be the national wake-up call, we saw that police departments started to develop the response to the active shooter incidents. emergency management and what the schools have done, sharing of information of maybe how a school's cc-tv can be accessed

by law enforcement blueprints, things along those lines. it requires an incident to take place to implement the plan or to kind of have the police department show up. so what proactive measures can we put in place so that we are preventing and not responding to the incidents? that, in my mind, is the goal. we want to prevent the incident, be prepared to respond but hopefully never have to respond, and what role should congress play in that process? i would say, mr. bond, in hindsight having had one of the first incidents, what things would you have thought could have been in place to actually help prevent the incident as opposed to being better able to respond to the incident in paducah? >> having everyone responsible for school safety, and by that i mean teachers and especially students. students have information about what's dangerous in school, what's going on. they know more about what's going on in school than the principal does. in my particular school, eight

kids saw the gun at school four days before the shooting took place. not one single one of those kids told me, told a teacher, nor did they tell their parents or sunday schoolteacher or preacher. information, information's the most valuable thing that we can have in school, and that comes from having trusting relationships with teachers, trusting relationships with students and students taking responsibility for their own school safety. >> so i'll go to mr. pompei then. so with that perspective being a school counselor, how do we do that? how do we get the students to share that information or be more proactive in their own defense? >> sure. well, the school counselor is actually the confidential space that kids will go to and share those really scary circumstances whether it's something they see like a gun in the school or something they're dealing with

internally or something they're experiencing at home or in the community. i think the issue is that what i mentioned in my testimony, the ratios as school counselors to students is so amazingly high that, um, students know that. and so the likelihood that they're going to seek out the support of that safe place inside the school counselor's office are somewhat minimized when they realize that if they put in a note to see the counselor, it might be two days before they get seen or three days, or the counselor might just want to talk about it casually in the hall pause they know they -- because they know they might not be indiana to -- able to call that student in. they can create this wonderful trusting relationships with students, and i would like to say they would more likely come to that school counselor to say, hey, this is what we're experiencing, this is what we see so that school counselor can intervene. >> mr. canady, i know you're primarily on building a rapport

between the resource officers and students, but anything else that you would look at that would try to help prevent these incidents rather than trying to respond to them? >> the relationship issue is so huge. you know, i think it's the most important one. you can get more information from a student when you have a positive relationship with them than you can in trying to interrogate someone, there's no question about that. so the relationship is huge, but also i would add to that relationship with parents. when the parents trust the sro or the school counselor or school administrator, they're more willing to share information which can be very helpful. >> grease, thank you. thank you, mr. chair, i yield back (may i address -- >> thank the gentleman, we'll get back to that, i'm sure. mr. andrews, you're recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. what is your opinion of authorizing personnel other than police officers to bear arms in schools? mr. bond, what do you think?

>> i think overall it would be detrimental. >> many okay. >> i just want to be brief because -- mr. canady, what do you think? >> our association took a strong stance on that from the beginning, we would not favor the wholesale arming of teachers. we realize there are unique situations. >> mr. pompei? >> absolutely disdegree with that. >> mr. bontrager? >> i'm a security expert, i'm not an expert on gun control, and what we focus on is how to. if schools decide that that's where they want to go, how do we make it as safe as possible. >> i understand. mr. osher? >> one of my expertise is implicit bias from social psychology. it's a very dangerous, risky proposition. >> mr. ellis? >> i would agree with that. i think it's a very risky proposition, and i would not be in favor of it. >> mr. pompei, the national

association of school counselors has a recommended ratio of 250 students to one counselor. what's your opinion of that ratio? do you think it's accurate? good? >> i mean, to be honest, i would love it to be even lower than that because the kind of work i know i can do. but i can tell you speaking from experience in california where our ratio's above 1,000 to 1, and i can tell you the type of work we know we need to be doing is not being done, and it's not because there's not a desire to have it done. so to do the preventive work that needs to be done, um -- >> thank you. mr. osher, your data show, apparently, that two of the really effective strategies for reducing school violence are freeing up guy dance counselors -- guidance counselors and psychologists, they have more time to counsel students and develop an early warning intervention system which strongly implies a lot of counseling interaction with students. the national ratio of students to counselors is 470 to 1.

which means even to come down to the present ratio, we'd have to really double the number of school counselors. would you favor a federal program to help finance such a result? >> i think that such a program is consistent with evidence that i've seen. let me just add one thing that is also important, that in many jurisdictions that i've been in, school counselors spend their times doing schedules and readmitting students who have been suspended. what you want to do is free them up just like you'd want to free school psychologists up to use the skills they have to rebuild that relationship. >> the bill and melinda gates foundation commissioned a study a while back. they asked students about their perceptions of their counselors, and 60% of the students gave their counselors either a fair or poor grade. 35% of the students gave them a poor grade, the lowest one.

48% of the students said that they felt they were, quote, a face in the crowd as opposed to really understanding their counselor had some sense of who they were. now, i attribute that, frankly, to the overwhelming workload that counselors have both in terms of the number of students they have and then the additional workload besides counseling. do you think that there should be some guidelines or suggestions or rules that govern what school district -- what duties school districts are assigned to counselors? i'm very sensitive to not micromanaging what our schools do, and i'm sure mr. bond would be well aware why that is. but it does strike me that counselors are you night infielding -- utility infielding. some of them are even involve inside transportation work in some districts. do you think we should impose some requirements that they stick to the core mission? what do you think, mr. osher?

>> i think when everyone is making policy, one has to try to structure it so that it is utilized well. and whether it's through guidelines, whether it's through technical assistance and support, i think it's important for people to know that this is an important investment, and it needs to be used well. >> mr. pompei, do you want to comment p on that? then my time is up. >> yeah. the american school counseling association naturally has a national model that highlights the types of items that school counselors should be focusing on their day, even the percentage of time they should be focusing. it also will list those, for example, for administrators and school district directors to highlight what school counselors should not be folking on. >> i think it's inspiring the way you've overcome your difficult situation to help young people. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> thank the gentleman. mr. wahlberg. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank the panel for being here on this important issue, challenging situationings.

mr.canady, you acted, as i understand it, as a supervisor for your local school division, and now you serve in a national capacity. i guess the first question i have is how have you witnessed the role of law enforcement change in dealing with school safety over years? >> well, one of the most important ways that i've witnessed the change is the sro actually becoming a part of the safety team and a part of the plan. sros who, again, are well trained and be understand the job get very engaged in the plan, they get very engaged in helping the school to practice the plan, different elements of it. so those are some of the changes that i think are significant. >> i represent school districts like small, rural hillsdale county, and others like lansing, jackson, monroe county. is there a different role that must be taken at the local level

between communities? in -- >> as far as between the law enforcement agencies and the communities? >> the whole issue of security based upon the size situation of the community. >> yeah, you know, i think one of the things that definitely needs to happen is more focus on training. of course, we train police officers that work in schools, but our training's also available the school administrators. so in those community environments, the teams need to be training together. school administration, law enforcement, fire department, they need to be working together in a safety team. >> the principals are the same -- the principles are the same, but there are unique situations, right? one size doesn't fit all? >> i would say that one size does not fit all. there are very unique situations out there, yes. >> thank you. mr. bond, in your testimony you

state, and i quote that the most effective way to prevent acts of violation targeted at schools is by building trusting relationships with students and others in the community so the threats come to light and can be in investigated as appropriate. the solution is a matter of school culture. it's a matter of community engagement. it's a matter of public health, end quote. why doesn't that statement include any mention of federal involvement? >> because what e am, was addressing there is how we prevent school violence at the community. of course, the federal government has oversight over all of those, but the federal government has oversight, they have the funding capacity over all of those that i did mention. >> okay.

mr. upon tagger -- bontrager, in your testimony you talked about your work to secure local schools over the years, and can you give us a sense of some of the typical, if there is any such thing as typical, what the typical security items that schools need to protect students? >> you're shul right. there's no typical -- you're absolutely right. there's no typical solution. it starts with a core solution that is normally around, what we would call mechanical hardware. there's lots of openings, so there's lots of locks and access points. and one of the most important part is the the control of the keys, who has the ability to gain access. so having control of a keying system so that you know who can get into what portion, what room, what portion of the building, etc. and then it goes out from there. if there's a desire to add

access control, electronic access control and video, but it starts at the core with mechanical, foes to video and alarms -- goes to video and alarms and staff protection and notification from there. >> okay. thank you. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank the gentleman. mr. scott, you're recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. to follow up on dr. heck's observations, a forensic psychologist at the university of virginia, dewey cornell, says in his presentations that if your school shooting prevention program begins when the shooter is at the the door, it's too late. with that in mind, mr. osher, your testimony mentions the promotion and prevention are more effective. what do you mean by promotion and prevention? >> sure. when i think about promotion, when i talk about promotion, i

mean building assets. assets can be through social/emotional learning that develops my ability to stop and think about doing something. it can be my relationships with counsel like mr. pompei. prevention is when we do things to try to prevent bad things from happening. when i think about positive behavioral interventions and supports that stop teachers from reacting to students or stop security officers from being negative, that's a preventive behavior. we need to do both of them. but we want both people to know not to jump over a bridge, and we also at the same time want to have railings that would prevent people from jumping over a bridge. >> i think you mentioned the prevention and promotion initiatives have to be comprehensive. >> yes. >> what does that mean? >> oftentimes schools and districts try to do one thing, and they get poor results. comprehensive is, i think, has at least two components. one component is thinking about

tiered interventions; what you to for everybody, what you do for some people that are at a more elevated level of need, and what you do for people who have greater needs. but comprehensive is also connecting the dots. and often what happens in many schools and districts and in public policy is the dots are not connected. so it's thinking about the connections between what we do in security and what we do to make, help students be engaged. those things are not disconnected events. when i have a metal detector outside of a school and people are waiting on line to get in and they end up getting to class late and then a teacher may not let them in or push them in the hall because of that or because of the -- or the classroom dynamic is disrupted, those things are connected, and we have to have plans that address all of them. >> thank you. you also make a point that prevention and promotion are less counterproductive and have fewer harmful side effects than suppression and punishment. what kind of counterproductive

or harmful side effects were you talking about? >> one big, harmful side effect is the disproportionate exclusion from education for poor kids and children of colors and children we motional/behavioral disabilities. it's the issue that the council on state governments report that came out of texas last year raised, that this is a major issue. the data are consistent across the country regarding profound disparities, and what we also know, say, from a place like new york where i am working right now is consistently what is happening is students doing stupid thingsened up being criminalized -- end up being criminalized. the first step may be a summons, but the second step is they may be more likely to be profiled. the next thing you know you have a bench warrant, and judges and district attorneys in new york city have been talking about

their concern with that part of the pipeline to prison. >> are you talking about zero tolerance policies in. in -- policies? >> the data on the way in which zero tolerance policies are implemented are highly problematic. and, again, these are a function to deny opportunities to learn to the students who are removed. but we also know from research that they have impacts on the other students including their willingness to trust adults. >> what does your research show about leasing schools -- >> i can't hear you. >> what does your research show about sros, the police in the schools? >> um, there is, there is little good research, but i can tell you from ta centers that i've worked that on the one hand we have soon good sros, and their work is consistent with the denver plan that you've heard, that people may have heard about. on the other hand, i think the

issue is that with scarce resources there are opportunity costs. and when i was listening before to mr. pompei, i think about a school in chicago that replaced all security personnel with a counselor for each grade as well as a counselor for the first year of college which along with focusing on people's commitment to each other reduced fully the amount of violence in the school, and that has persisted for now five years. thinking i might get a question like this, i checked with chicago security yesterday to get the answer. and so there's an opportunity cost even if something is good. >> thank you. >> the gentleman's time has expired. dr. roe. >> thank the chairman for yielding. and i want to thank the panel. i've certainly learned a lot here today, and i know when i was in school and perhaps any of of you can take in the question,

i don't ever or recall a school shooting. i grew up on a farm, and i grew up hundting, i -- hunting, my family showed me how to hunt and shoot. i looked back and looked at the data, there have been 137 school shootings since 1980, and i didn't go back further than that, but 297 deaths, fatalities, that may not have included sandy hook. 2,000 kids die each year in car accidents, it's a far bigger problem, car wrecks are. someone, i've forgotten who it is on the panel, says the schools are safe places, and for the most part they really are. and to mr. scott's comment, i want to brag on the sro program. in my county next to me, sullivan county, tennessee, wince port is the -- kings port is the major city. a resource officer faced a man down, one of the bravest women

i've ever met in my life, and i don't know how many lives she saved, but i think the school resource officer program is great. i also agree that the counseling, as mr. andrews said, is woefully underdone. i remember when i got out of high school, i went to the school counselor one time in four years. that was to tell me what i was supposed to do with the rest of my life. and just like he said, i sort of blew that off and went on. so it was basically worthless. i hate to say that about my counselor, but it was basically worthless. and i just wonder on the sros what we're doing in my community, if my district is we're raising the resources locally to put an sro in each school in our system. i think the other thing i learned today we need to go a step further and make sure we've got the prevention, and as you all pointed out, the training, the reevaluation of those things on a regular basis.

it's not like you do your will once when you're 25 and never get it out again until you're in the graveyard. i think that's a great point you made that these things change each day. mr. canady, in your association what number of of schools across the country are covered by sros? do you know how many -- the number or anything? >> i'm sorry, i couldn't hear the last part of your question. >> how many schools have an sro or a resource officer there? >> the best estimates we've been able to come up with are around 10%. we think it's somewhere around 10%. we don't see a lot beyond that. >> so the it's a or very low number then. >> yes, sir. >> then, you know, i agree with you. what i have seen, and i got so tired of adults during the last election that the week before the election i went to seven schools and visited them, and all of them had a resource officer. and they, at least the students i saw around, he was part of the school system, or she. they were very much a part of d i mean, a lot of the kids, maybe

they'd gotten to know these folks andering, but they seemed to interact. i was amazed at how well and how much trust they had. and i think that goes, mr. pompei, you and mr. canady, the trust the students gain if you take the time to do that. and i think they will share or a lot of things with the resource officer and the school counselor if they're available, and it sounds like they're not available if only 10 percent of schools had them, and in your case in california, 1 in 1,000, you might as well not have them if you have that few. any comment? >> well, it certainly, you know, we're not calling for police in schools. what we're asking for are the ones that go into schools, that they're properly trained. however, i certainly know the benefits of an sro. i've seen it firsthand for several years, and i can certainly speak to that. and i believe any school could benefit from one. again, if they're properly selected and trained.

>> mr. bond? >> is campbell county, tennessee, in your district? >> no, sir, just out. >> just out of your district. in 2005 in campbell county, an assistant principal was killed. and that school did not have an sro, and they heard a kid had a gun on campus. and two assistant principals and the principal tried to disarm him. he shot all three of them in three seconds. one died, one has a bullet an inch behind his heart, and the principal had his bladder exploded. had they had an sro, they would have been able to search that young man without that happening. >> well, i think, i think the decision's been made in our community, and i'm ready to yield back s that we are going to have sros, and i certainly will take the other things back from this panel. >> gentleman's time has expired.

ms. mccarthy. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and i truly thank you for having this hearing. i'm concerned, though, that hopefully we're going to have more hearings on school safety, because the testimony that we've heard today -- which i think is excellent, i think each and every person here has put out some good points -- but truth of the matter is we don't know, you know, whether schools could even have an sro. can they afford it. counselors? we know that we don't have enough counselors. my former life was a nurse. i know we don't have enough nurses in schools, and e know especially in the grade schools and middle schools, that's where most kids that are troubled actually go to them first, and then it's the nurse that brings them to the counselor or to someone thals need help -- that would need help. but as a lot of these people on this committee know that i'm not a stranger to the debate on gun violence and how can we prevent

it, and i certainly authored the last major piece of legislation on this issue that had to do with virginia tech. but i i have to say that i agree with mr. ellis that, you know, what happened in connecticut was a terrible, terrible tragedy. but i don't want my schools to start to panic. because the majority of my schools are, they are the safest place that some of these young people go to. especially in certain neighborhoods and depending on the community that they're living from. we certainly know that a lot of young people are killed going to school and coming out of school or happening out at the -- or hanging out at the school. so i think that, you know, while this committee can do some work to make school safer from gun violence, you know, my personal belief is that untiling we do something -- unless we do

something in tandem with trying to reduce gun violence outside the school, and that has to do with gun violence prevention, it's something that everybody should be thinking about. mr. palmer, you know, a couple years ago i was a chairwoman here on healthy families and communities subcommittee, and i had a hearing on cyberbullying. and each te this day -- even to this day we do not have enough information in our schools to talk about cyberbullying. we have worked with many, many organizations, girl scouts of america, who found out their young ladies, some of theming the worst of those that were actually -- we used to call it picking on a kid. it's not that way anymore. and it's something that dose on facebook -- goes on facebook is there forever. and we need to do more on that,

and that's important. and that's something that can be done within the school. so i understand what you went through, and i really appreciate that you took that and made it your career to help others. and i think that's extremely important. unfortunately, some of these sad things that happen in our lives makes us activists in one way or another. but, mr. canady, i was interested in what you were saying. you mentioned that the school resource officer should always operate with a memorandum of understanding between law enforcement and the school district. is this always the case? >> i'm sorry, i could not hear the last part. >> when, in your testimony when i were speaking -- when you were speaking, you had said that the school and the sro should actually have a memorandum that work together. is this always the case? >> yes. i understand the question now. it is not always the case, unfortunately. it should be. that is the foundation for a

program to be successful. without that, it's very adult for it to succeed -- difficult for it to succeed. so the mou is one of the things we've been teaching for 23 years now. and i see that as, to some degree -- not that i know the details, but it appears that's what's happening in denver. the city and the school district are coming together and putting an mou in place and agreeing to work together. >> and when we talk about possibly if it's only 10% having school resources, sros in the schools, obviously what we're going through here whether the money comes from washington, goes down to the state from the state to our school cans, we're not going to have, never have the resources that are needed, unfortunately. as many of us are working on reducing gun violence, a strong component of that is to really be able to have whether they're

psychologists, psychiatrists -- which i don't know too many schools that have a psychiatrist -- inside the school talk to the teachers. the teachers can pick out these young people that have problems right away, but then how do we get the parents to react to that? so these are a lot of things that i happen to think this committee should really be looking into, because if we're going to keep our scoops as safe -- our schools as safe as possible, i think that we really, really have to have a comprehensive program. thank you. >> the gentlelady's time has expired. we are looking at votes probably in the next 20-25 minutes. so after discussion with the ranking member, i'm going to reduce members' time to three minutes instead of five minutes. so pay anticipation. mr. rah kieta, you're recognized. >> thank you, mr. chair. i also want to thank all of you for your testimony. it's been educational for me. i happen to be subcommittee chair for k-12 here on this

committee, and i share ranking member mccarthy's comments as well and everything she said. on these issues. so let me quickly -- i also happen to be a member of budget committee here in the house, so my mind, especially this time of year, turns to that type of work. for mr. bond and maybe mr. ellis as well and anyone else who want to respond, how much does it cost local school districts to develop and implement a school safety plan? especially noting that it's a living document? >> school safety plan is just part of what goes into being the administrator and professional development. a day of professional development, one day of professional development costs one two-hundredth of the school's budget. >> okay. mr. ellis, anything to add to that? i don't mean to cut you off,

but -- >> i think the simple answer is, it depends. >> are you a lawyer? >> no, i'm not. [laughter] i think, if i could finish, it depends on the expertise available in the school system, it depends on the expertise available in the local community, for example, what kind of resources can come to bear to assist a school to develop those kinds of plans. >> do any of you know if there's any specific federal program or funding that goes to helping plan these or create these plans? >> title iv. >> mr. pond? >> title iv that used to exist, title iv all went to school safety in the -- >> no, but for the planning. would you have -- do you have the flexibility to use that money -- >> title iv allowed you to develop plans, have professional development on it, bring in expertise. yes, title iv does that. >> and there used to be

grants -- >> mr. ellis. >> -- through the office of education's office of safe and drug-free schools. and my understanding those do not exist anymore since 2011. >> okay. mr. bontrager, real quick while i have you here, thank you for your presence in indiana, too. i played hockey just down the street from where you guys have 1500 employees. your testimony talks about how educators have a lot on their plates, they're now expected to be an expert on school safety. can you talk about how private companies can help defray some of these costs and so forth? and when you put the hardware in, do you kind of just turn it over, or do you help in the training as well? >> so two things, i think. a lot of the solutions, a lot of the products exist in the market, and the schools need to be made aware of them as opposed to trying to figure out what can we do. we need to find a way the to pair them with people that know

what the opportunities, what the solutions are that can be implemented at those schools. and, no, the answer to your second question is we provide training specifically for people as simple as locking systems to wireless locks. we bring them to our facilities to train the employees in the school as to how they work so that they can train others and keep the program live and keep the integrity of the program as the years go on. >> thank you, all. my time -- >> gentleman's time has expired. mr. courtney, and we'll be a little bit latitude here understanding your connection. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and, again, i just wanted the to make a those that as someone who represents a district that's about a 50-minute drive from newtown, i really want to thank the chairman for holding this hearing. this is the first hearing in the house side since the sandy hook incident took place.

and, um, i just want you to know it's not gone unnoticed and, hopefully, some of our colleagues and other areas of jurisdiction in the house are going to take the incredible outpouring of reaction in response to thinktown as seriously as you did -- to newtown as seriously as you did. and with that i just, again, want to reiterate my thanks. thank you to the panel. i'm sort of an all of the above guy in terms of a lot of the ideas that are being presented here today. you know, in particular the teamwork between school resource officers, school health-based centers, school counselors is something that i have witnessed repeatedly over the last month and a half or so talking to school districts in connecticut, and they are a team. when they are working the right way. and also what i heard is that, you know, one of the reasons why it's not like the good old days is that kids are coming to school with severe diagnosed conditions of mental health illness at shockingly young

agings. and the one item that i heard genre peatedly from school counselors -- again repeatedly from school counselors is the fact that, again, even when you've got a robust system of counselors and health centers, the fact is sometimes you need to refer out into the community for pediatric sigh coalitions and adolescent psychiatrists, and a state with uconn health center churning out physicians, this is not an area of profession where, frankly, we don't have enough near bodies. the waiting time for even emergency situations is really unacceptable, and i just wanted to see, mr. pompei, if you can sort of confirm that experience as well, the need to refer out which is required sometimes is really very difficult. >> absolutely. school counselors, school nurses, we very much are aware of who's in the community. so part of our job is that

middle person, that collaborator with the community. so we are the person the administrator will come to if they find out there's a need because they know the school counselor will have access in their file drawer, right, you know, readily available so that they can make those recommendations. we work very, very closely with the community-based mental health professionals for long-term care, and we collaborate with them so once they're getting that long-term care, we can provide the changes that are needed to make a positive transition for that student to come back to school, making sure we're working with the teachers to make sure, hey, these are triggers for the student and then meeting with that student as follow up. >> thank you. >> so, again, as we try to what to do in response to this situation, i think it's important for us to know there's a loan forgiveness program for pediatric and adolescent psychiatry through the national health service corps which is going to expire this year, and to me, this is an issue which our committee should look at. it deals with the needs of young

people and, obviously, a work force gap that's out there. and we can fix that by reextending that. and i would just lastly say, mr. bontrager, your point about trying to find a place for people to sort of get best practices, the rems technical assistant program at the u.s. department of education actually does still exist. they do webinar, they do have online information but, frankly, we should also try and follow that up with some more resources. i don't know if you want to comment on that, and then i'll be done. >> yeah. i know the ta does exist, but the grants are no longer being offered for localities. >> right. >> could i just say that the department of of education has brought the rems ta center along with the national center on safe and supportive environments that i lead together to make sure we coordinate our activities in response to these issues and to try to make those connections. >> thank the gentleman. mr. guthrie. >> thank you. thank you, mr. bond, for coming

up from home. i appreciate you being here. and i know what happened in your school, the tragedy that was there, the way you reacted, your school, the paducah community is something that i know it still reverberates and there, and we appreciate you coming here to share your experiences. because, hopefully, there are very few people who have the experiences you have, and you can share those to other schools. in '98 the legislature passed in kentucky the school safety, the school safety at eastern kentucky university, bullying and all the things that went forward, and since '97 you've now in school safety, what now that you knew then? what have you learned or what do you think is available to professional development, what you would have learned, what your teachers learned? i know it's speculative, but if you knew then what you know now, do you think mr. cornell -- other than hopefully a kid now will say i saw a gun at school. hopefully -- what other things?

because i understand he was a mentally ill and troubled student in a lot of ways. >> when i think what i've learned, mr. guthrie, is that communication cannot be replaced with anything. money, any commitment. communication with the people involved in the school, the trusting each other, the understanding that we're all responsible for each other cannot be replaced by locks, police officers, cameras. that's the ultimate thing that we have to develop. we all play a part of that; sros, counselors, principals, school nurses, we're all -- >> when you see somebody with this behavior now today, there are, i mean, he was a loner, i understand, in a lot of issues -- >> no, sir. he was an a-b student, he was in the band. >> i knew he did well.

>> his father was an attorney. his sister was valedictorian. >> i've met her. >> he budget a loner. he had never had a disciplinary write-up in his life. >> he just -- >> he had never been in the principal's office for being in trouble until he brought all those guns and killed those people. >> because that would be difficult to spot somebody like that. that's what we've got to -- yeah, i guess that's what the concern is. we appreciate you. mr. pompei, the counseling? >> well, i hear from my colleagues that sometimes when school counselors will go into a lesson in a classroom, and i've been in a classroom where i've noticed behavior that in our unique training that school counselors get when we get credentialed, that sometimes we notice things that a teacher that never had that training can never spot. and when we will try to probe and find out if something's going on there. i'm not saying that a school counselor would have been able to identify that, but it's very common for a school counselor to

spot things because of the training we receive that other educators at the school system might not. >> thank you. i yield back. >> gentleman's time has expired. ms. wilson. >> thank you, mr. chair. i think that in every tragic incident we have within school violence, we always end up saying someone should have done something or someone could have done something. to prevent this. and i think that there's not a one size fits all for all schools. i represent a school district, two school districts, one that has a full police force. the other has just a few sros. but that's the difference in the school districts. but i think one thing that should be available to all

schools is enough counselors, enough social workers and mentors for the children. that's all of them, whether they have sros or whatever else they have. and i don't think it's so much for the counselor to detect who needs help. the way that the funding is now for counselors, there are so few. so children who have problems relating the to their parents, relating to their peers, they don't have anyone that they really trust in the school to speak with. because there are so few counselors, and they're always busy, they're planning for college and testing, etc. so the one thing i think we need to do is expand the pool of school counselors and social

workers who can make home visits after the school counselor gives them recommendations and also mentors from the community. because a lot of times it's just a matter of mess communication -- miscommunication. i don't know who i could have gone to for help. and i've had the opportunity to talk to so many children who are in prison, in jail with just one person being available to help them through a bad day, to help them think anger, to help them through bullying, to help them through mommy and daddy getting a divorce or mommy getting peat up the fight before -- beat up the night before or mommy is a crack addict, whatever. but to me, i'd like the find out from the panel how do you feel about increasing the numbers of counselors? i heard someone say that one

school had a counselor for every grade level. what a difference it would make. for children in schools. and i'd like to get your reaction. i'm a former school principal. >> the gentlelady's time has expired. i think it's an excellent question, and we'd like to get that for the record, if we could, from the witnesses if we can get the response. ms. bonamici. >> thank you very much, chairman klein and ranking member miller, for having this important hearing and thank you to the possible. i have two questions, and i'll ask them both together and then ask for your response. first, thank you so much for your discussion about prevention. it's so important. and i'd like you to, perhaps mr. bond and mr. pompei, talk briefly about the barriers other than resources which we understand and the ratio that's too high. what are the barriers? are there student privacy barriers or other barriers to

prevention? my second question has to do with a different kind of school safety, and, mr. ellis, you mentioned natural disasters as a school safety issue. oregon, my state, is due for a major earthquake along the cascade ya fault, and there are schools that are a along that coast there that are in the fault zone and will likely result there'll be a tsunami there. and so we have dangers of collapsing buildings and infrastructure, and because we're so close to the fault, we don't have very much response time. so we take this very seriously, and i wonder if anyone has experience in planning for this type of natural disaster. so, first, the barriers to mental health and then the emergency prepared aspect. thank you. >> i keep coming pack to the same thing, communication. but schools haven't adapted to modern communication that kids use. in the old days, we could put a box out and say drop a note in.

kids don't drop notes. we could have hotlines. kids don't use the telephone. we have to have mechanisms in place where kids can send text messages with their concern, e-mail messages with their concern. but setting the system up is easy part. but then we have to have someone like a counselor that has time to monitor those and follow up. because if you ask kids to give you information and you don't follow up on that information, you will never get any information from that child again. you have to follow up with the child's concern, and we don't have those resources in place to follow up with those children's concern. >> thank you, mr. pompei? >> and the number one barrier i know that you mentioned other than the student/school

counselor ratio, that would be the number one barrier, but as far as school climate as a whole and wellbeing of the child as a whole, i would say number one me speaking as a school counselor would be the lack of professional development that's connected to what does research say, what are are search -- research-proven ways that include a welcoming climate for our kids? very much the professional development is connected the to helping the students learnal algebra, helping teach vocabulary, and it's completely avoided the professional development on that topic. even though the research has the connection. when they feel safe of and connected, they're more lineally to learn. >> and i see that my time has expired, so perhaps i could get some response after the hearing on the record about the careering for natural disasters and that safety aspect. thank you, mr. chairman. >> i thank the gentlelady. your time has expired, and we would appreciate response if you have -- you were poised to answer that question about natural response, we would like to get that for the record. i've been held off my questions

til the end here trying to make sure that we got questions in before we went to vote, and i'm not going to ask a question now because it's, i'm sure, a lengthy answer. but i just want to make this to observation. listening to the discussion here today, how many times your responses -- almost everybody, has talked about the need to have a trusted adult and to have communications between the students and those trusted adults and communications between students and students. and it seems to me that's on area where schools would be well advised to make sure their staff beyond just the counselors -- and i very much appreciate that work -- and beyond just the officers in the school, but for there to be an education training awareness program so that teachers and administrators are seen as trusted adults. l and -- and the students can talk to them. i was struck by again and again

how we went back and forth how that theme continued to play out. let me yield to mr. miller for any closing remarks he might have. >> mr. chairman, again, thank you very much for the hearing. i think you heard from our members how much, how important they thought this was, and thank you again to the panel. i assume we'll have additional hearings on this. thank you. >> thank the gentleman. and, again, i want to thank the witnesses. truly an excellent panel. marvelous resource. of course, we picked you, so i guess we get some credit here. but truly marvelous, and thank you very much for your testimony and your responsiveness. and with that, the committee stands adjourned. >> as you know, we want to invest a lot more there and keep

saying that's the best investment we can make as a country if we're serious about closing the opportunity gap, getting our babies ready to be successful. on the early child side, a cut of about $400 million. as many as 70,000 children would lose access to head start slots this fall and as many as 14,000 teachers who teach those children would lose those jobs. and that money does not come from our department, obviously, it comes from hhs, but this is just talking about what impacts kids. on the k-12 side, as you guys know, the vast majority of our funding goes to two different situations, and we always are funding at the federal level. we're the minority investor, 80-90% is local. but what we do is we help support the nation's most vulnerable children. so the two biggest pots there are title i money which is money for poor children, children who live below the poverty line.

that total pot is 14.5 billion, and money for kids with special needs, special education, about 12 billion. what these cuts would moon on title i is $725 million would be cut and as many as 10,000 teachers and teachers' aide could lose their jobs, and on the special side that's about 700 million and about 7,200 teachers would lose their jobs. people say what if you had more discretion, more choice. those two pots together, about $25 billion, they dwarf anything else we do. so the only choice i could make would be to hurt fewer poor children and help more special needs kids or do the opposite. there's a no-win proposition there. there's nothing i could do to come up with a smarter way to do this. you're, you know, hurting poor kids or hurting kids with special needs either way you go. on the higher education side, a cut of about $86 million. and, again, the president has

challenged us to try to lead the world in college graduation rates. that cut would mean for the fall as many as 70,000 students would lose access the grants and to work study opportunities, and we know and i'm sure many of you are paying tuition, college is very expensive today. something else we're working on. and if young people lose access to grants and work study, my fear -- don't, you know, don't know any numbers yet -- my fear is many of them would not be able to enroll in college, unable to go back. again, do we want fewer people going to college in this country, or do we want more? so real clear choices there. all of those cuts i walked through -- the early childhood piece, the k-12 piece, the higher ed piece, those are all cuts that would be hitting in the fall. so there's lots of churn now, over the next month or two you'll see lots of pink slips. it's usually march and april where that happens, but these are all things that would happen for the fall. >> a house education

subcommittee is holding a hearing this morning on measuring teacher performance. live coverage is on c-span3 at 9 eastern. minutes will hear about -- members will hear about teacher assessment from administrators from houston, indianapolis and knoxville, tennessee. >> now, a hearing on the e-verify policeman, the internet-based system that allows employers to verify the immigrant status of legal workers. this is an hour and a half. >> how e-verify works and how it benefits american employers and workers. welcome to all of our witnesses. on behalf of all of us, we apologize for the fact that you were waiting on us. we had votes, and it's unavoidable. so the subcommittee on immigration and border security will come to order. without objection, the chair's authorized to declare recesses of the committee at any time, and again, we welcome all of our witnesses in the interest of time and because you have been

waiting on us, i am going to make my statement part of the record so we can get to your testimony quicker. and with that, i am going the to recognize the ranking member, the gentlelady from california. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i will also make my statement part of the record and simply note that e-verify can only work if we reform the immigration system, otherwise we're just finding out howdies functional it really is -- how dysfunctional it really is. also i am concerned about the r record rate. i know we're making great improvements, but if there's a massive expansion, we're talking potentially over 100,000 americans who might lose a job and need a remedy. and i'm hoping the committee can keel with that -- can deal with that. and with that i will ask man now content to put my statement in the record. >> without objection, and i am grateful to the gentlelady for helping expedite this. i'm going to introduce all the

witnesses and briefly give your bio, and then we'll recognize you from my right to left, your left to right. at some point i do -- i knew it was a matter of time before i made a mistake. i want to recognize the chairman of the full committee, the gentleman from virginia, mr. goodlatte, for his opening statement. >> well, thank you, mr. chairman. i am going to join you and the ranking member in putting my statement in the record, but i do want to say how important i think e-verify is as we work through the entire issue of immigration law reform. we had a failure in 1986 with immigration that did grant a pathway to citizenship for nearly three million people. we thought the people -- the people who passed it at the time thought they were taking care of this problem, but because they did not have a good enforcement mechanism and the laws on the books were, indeed, not

enforced, we have a much greater problem today. e-verify is not the entire solution, but it is a critical part of the enforcement solution make it easier for employers to be able to know whether the person presenting their credentials to them for a job are, indeed, the person they say they are and have the authorization that they claim to have, and it does so electronically which i think we're going to see a demonstration of here today, so let's get on with the opportunity to do that, and i'll put the rest of my statement in the record. thank you. >> i thank the chairman. i i will introduce you, and then we'll have a demonstration of e-verify, and then we'll recognize you for your opening statements. first, and i'm just going to apologize in advance for pronunciations that are a function of my inability to we netically -- phonetically do things very well. so i apologize. ms. sroraya corea -- is that close? perfect it's not, maybe close. superintendently sevens as the

associate director for u.s. citizenship and immigration services, intersurprise services directorate and is responsible for delivering employment authorization information in support of the uscis mission. she also sees the biometrics division national records center division. she has an undergraduate certification in acquisitions management from american university in washington, d.c. and a ba in management from national lewis university. mr. chris gamvroulas is president of ivy development, the land act acquisition and affiliate in salt lake city, utah. chris joined in 1993 and was appointed president in 1996. since that time he has overseen the land acquisition of hundreds of acres of commercial properties totaling nearly $1 billion in real estate assets. he attended harvard business school advanced management

program and holds a bachelor's of science degree in political science from the university of utah. mr. randall k. johnson, pending before congress and the federal agencies. before joining u.s. chamber, he served as u.s. counselor to the u.s. house of representatives committee on education and the work force. mr. johnson is a graduate of the university of maryland school of law and earned his magser of laws and -- master of laws and labor relations from georgetown. and finally ms. emily tully is policy attorney for the national immigration haw center. her advocacy focuses on maintaining and expanding the rights of low-wage worker, and she analyzes -- [inaudible] she holds a jd from the college of william and mary in the chairman's home state. with that, i believe we have a demonstration of e-verify. and you are welcome to take it away.

>> all right. we're going to bring this up on the screen here. happy -- i'm the deputy chief at u.s. immigrations services, and i'm going run for you this afternoon two cases. one case that goes through automatically and one case that gets a tentative nonconfirmation response. i'm using test data today on our test system. so this is what the log in looks like. i'm going to click new case, and it asks you what the individual attested to on their form i-9. i'm going to select citizen of the united states. then asks what documenteds they prevented on the form i-9, and i'm going to select list b and c documents. then it asks which list b and c documents did you present. so here i'm selecting driver's license and social security card. i'm going to go down to the next here and hit continue.

it's going to ask you what state the driver's license was issued. selecting kansas. and then it asks you to fill out the name of the individual. the date of birth. it's going to ask for the social security number. the system also wants to make sure the document shown for the form i-9 is still valid, so it asks you for the date in which the document, pyres. expires. and then you have to put in the hire date which has to be, um, within three dates of the current date.

and then you hit count. continue. so here you'll see the response this individual's implement is authorized. it has a summer that was submitted with this case, and then up here at the top is the case verification number which the employer is asked to record on the form i-9. now i'm going the demonstrate a candidate where an individual is not -- a case where an individual is not automatically employment authorized. again, using the same profile, driver's license, social security. the state in which the card was issued. and all of this information is what the employer can find on the form i-9.

expiration date. and date of hire. select continue. so here the system understands that it's about to issue a tentative nonconfirmation or sort of a yellow light response in which the individual may need to follow up with the government. and it does give the employer one more time to look at the case. so as you saw previously, it went automatically through. but here we're trying to give them a second chance to avoid any typos. i'm going to go ahead and click continue. and here it says that the individual has received a tentative nonconfirmation. underneath it states the name or date of birth entered for this employee did not match social security administration records. it clarifies that this because not mean that the employee is

not authorized to work in the united states. however, additional action is required. so the employer would click continue, and here they can select a notice to give to the employee to tell them about the tentative nonconfirmation and ask if they want to contest or follow up with that tentative nonconfirmation. we have this letter prepopulated in english and in spanish, and we also have it translated in 17 other languages in our resource section. i'll show you what the notice looks like. so the notice has the information about the employee, the reason for the tentative nonconfirmation, it gives information on what they're supposed to do, it reminds the employer that this information can be found in 17 other languages, and it asks the employee to sign that letter. the employer must give it to the employee. also there are special instructions for the employee on the next page telling them what they must do and what their

rights are. the employer must confirm that they've notified the employee of this tentative nonconfirmation. it does not have to happen on the spot. the employer has the ability to save the case and exit if the employee is not in their immediate view. this could happen over a day or so. click continue. and if the individual decides to con contest their nonconfirmation, then the employer has to refer the this to the government so we know to expect that person to contact us. if they do not choose to contest, they may be terminated. i'm going to click continue and here refer the case. and that case will either go to social security administration or the department of homeland security and will wait for the employee to contact them within eight days. and that is the conclusion of this demonstration. thank you. >> thank you very much for doing that. i will now recognize our witnesses for their opening

statements. we will begin with ms. correa, and the lights mean what they traditionally mean in life; red light means do your best to wrap up that thought, and with that, ms. correa. >> thank you. chairman goodlatte, chairman goudy and ranking member lofgren and members of the subcommittee, i appreciate this opportunity to discuss with you our shared goal of effect thive employment eligibility verification through the e-verify program. uscis has made improvements in the e-verify program since we last appeared before this subcommittee in february 2011. our focus remains on insuring the accuracy, efficiency and integrity of the system while increasing awareness, knowledge and understanding of the program for both the employers and the employees. i am pleased to report that use of e-verify continues to grow, and the system comets to score high marks -- continues to score high marks in customer satisfaction. since 2007 the number of

employees has grown from 24,000 to over 430,000. last fiscal year, e-verify processed over 21 million queries, a fortune five -- more than fivefold increase since 2007. it received a score of 86 out of 100 on the 2012 american customer satisfaction index. the vast majority of users surveyed were likely to recommend e-verify to other employers and were likely to continue using the system. improving the accuracy of the e-verify system remains our primary goal. when examining accuracy, it is important to look at two rates; accuracy for authorized workers and for unauthorized workers. i want to first talk about accuracy for authorized workers. a common misperception of e-verify's accuracy rate is that the underlying government data is wrong whenever a mismatch or tentative nonconfirmation, or tnc, is returned. however, that is only an indication of a discrepancy

between the information provided to e-verify and the information in the government databases. for example, if the employee must notify the social security administration of a name change following marriage or other legal proceeding. the employer needs to insure it enters the name exactly as it appears on the form i-9, and the u.s. government needs to update its records in a timely fashion. thus, the accuracy of e-verify requires the action of three parties; the ec employment -- employer, the employee and the u.s. government. ..

>> 94% were actually issued by e-verify. we also working to prevent in e-verification aspect of e-verified. detecting identity fraud and employment verification records a multilevel approach which i laid out in my written testimony. in november 2010, uscis expanded either by photographing matching tool to include u.s. passports and u.s. passport card. and the customer satisfaction survey, users rate the photo tool very highly as a method for reducing fraud. uscis is developing other methods for reducing fraud such as margin repeated use of social security numbers and a system enhancement that allows employees to wash their social screen of in e-verify. and sure employers use the system properly. uscis is also working closely

with the department of justice's office of special counsel to effectively prevent discrimination and misuse that adversely affects employees. to guard against avoidable and protect employee rights, uscis launched self-check, a service of e-verify. so check empowers individuals by allowing them to verify their work authorization status online and proactively resolve records mismatches before formally seeking employment to over 180,000 individuals nationwide have used the self-check service. to inform the public about e-verify, uscis has a robust outreach initiatives that include radio, print and online ads in english and in spanish as well as public -- publisher their live webinars. uscis maintains a toll-free customer service line and hotline for e-verify users. in addition, new multimedia employee rights toolkit is available online in english and in spanish to of employers understand the program. uscis is committed to continued

expansion of the e-verify program while ensuring the aggregate of efficiency and integrity of the system. but equally committed to increasing compliance, knowledge, and understanding of the program and how it benefits of the american workforce. on behalf of all of my colleagues at uscis, we appreciate congress is continued strong of the e-verify program. i thank you for this opportunity to testify and i look forward to answering your questions. >> thank you, ma'am. mr. gamvroulas. >> chairman gowdy, ranking member lofgren, members of the subcommittee on immigration and border security, thank you for this opportunity to testify. i'm the president of the ivory developer based in so let's see. i -- ivory homes one of the more 140,000 hours of the national association of homebuilders. to ensure ivory homes only employs individual authorized to work in the united states, we use e-verify employment verification system.

in 2010 the state of utah imposed requirement that all employers with 15 or more employees must use e-verify. ivory homes worked closely with the utah legislature to craft a reasoned approach to balance compliance with the lowest in his of employers, particularly small business. once the state enacted a law, ivory homes immediately came into compliance with e-verify. we trained our human resource staff to act in accordance with the law. on the whole we found e-verified to be an efficient and effective system. generally speaking the system is easy to use and has the potential for quick turnaround. and 2010 ivory homes, since 2010 ivory homes has processed approximately hundred 20 employees through either by. and all the time we've only had four hires received a tentative nonconfirmation. none of whom who to date have protested the mismatch. anecdotally we suspect on employee applicants refrain from pursuing jobs once they learned their identification will be processed in e-verify. we believe that e-verify is

working as intended and it is possible to potential hires who might be undocumented our self-policing. him there is no notification of when the system is updated and new training requirements have to be passed. that has caused confusion and delays within the human resources staff. there must be a process to inform and educate visitors about the requirements of an changes to the program beyond what is in the federal registry. these are simple improvements that would enhance the system and make a more user-friendly for all businesses large and small. as an employer it would be preferable for our company to begin e-verify process when a worker accepts the position rather than be required to wait until after the workers started. this cannot be understated. if a newly hired employee eventually receives a final nonconfirmation confirming that there in eligible to work, we lose time and resources

dedicated to training that individual, only have to start the hiring process all over again. allowing us to verify worker status to date except a job offer will give us more lead time to handle tentative nonconfirmation's. last congress, in hp which ivory homes is a proud member supported no legal workforce act introduced by former chairman lamar smith. this legislation was an important first step in ridding the system that is workable and we hope to see similar elements in any new legislation you consider. the legal workforce act provided a strong, safe harbor to ensure that those of us who use the system in good faith will not be held liable by the government or by the employers of workers, or errors in the system. the legislation also maintain current law with regard to e-verification of an employers direct employs. under current law ivory homes like all employers are responsible for verification of the identity and work authorization status of their direct employs only.

while we do not verify the employs of subcontractors, we are precluded from knowingly using unauthorized subcontracted workers as a means of circumventing the law. e-verify can only confirm work authorization based on those documents presented. it cannot confirm whether the person presenting those documents is, in fact, the same person represented in those documents. the government also must be able to improve by sticking with two eliminate identity fraud. this is also another reason why it is vital to have an effective safe harbor in any legislation. until e-verify can detect cases of fraud, employers who use e-verify should not be held accountable for unauthorized workers who have cleared the system because of identity theft. if e-verify is federally mandated it must work for the smallest employer as well as the largest. the reality is that many small businesses cannot access the internet from th a job site. providing a telephonic option for employers is thus important

to finally if employers are going to be acquired to use the federal be verified program they must be sure there are only one set of rules needed for compliance. a strong federal preemption clause is critical. in conclusion, my experience with e-verify in utah has been positive. the system has been proven to be easy-to-use, protects employees privacy and rights, and we generally find it to be an efficient and effective system. we support transcend the class congress nahb support the legal workforce act. we look forward to working with you on this key element of immigration reform. thank you again. >> thank you, sir. mr. johnson. >> chairman, ranking member lofgren, members, i was going to say good evening but i moved back up to good afternoon. i welcome this opportunity to talk about the u.s. chamber of commerce is needs on e-verify. and past testament before the subcommittee and others our view is that the program as mr. smith will renumber, we call a basic puck and we took the view that

really it was not right for prime time. they should not be imposed on employers for a variety of reasons. but however times and circumstances do change, and sometimes it becomes necessary to reevaluate one's assumptions and positions. we at the chamber move very slowly and carefully before we consider whether or not to support a new mandate on our members. this end and, frankly, because i do value my job can we created a task force at the chamber comprised of a broad section of our membership in january 2011 to assess whether e-verify should be expanded and changed into a mandate on employers for verification obligation. that task force comprised a good section of our members, small and large, good associations and companies. and ultimately after a lot of analysis we concluded that the chamber should support a mandatory e-verify system provided certain critical conditions are met. my written test makers through these but let me summarize. first i think the government

estimates indicated there's been a lot of numerous technical improvements to the system, is any, is in the wrong tentative nonconfirmation acceptable? well, no. know, it's a problem at any u.s. citizen gets denied a job, but it's reassuring to know that the correction process is now a lot easier and that look, i think this is one situation where we can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. secondly, with regard to cost, i know there's some information in the record with regard to various numbers richard blum 2.7 million. all i can say is our economist has look at the studies, believes those studies have overestimated the impact on certain chamber members. i think the bottom line, where the rubber meets the road, mr. chairman, is that our members report that they can adapt to the system will and i had very, very little in terms of adverse impact in cost on their operations. third, i think most important,

and our prior what has already talked about, we need a strong preemption clause. i think state and local e-verify laws. there's various, various policy, various kinds of bounces that had to be struck when you talk about preemption and we are well aware of that. but certainly our members view that we need one law across the country, setting one standard for employment verification. fourth, and a want to emphasize this, we cannot support and the verification law that requires each repetition of an entire work force. i won't beat a dead horse on this except to state the obvious, that if you 100,000 plays in a company, it's extremely burdensome to all of a sudden run everybody through a new verification process, particularly when you're done that under the eye nine process. for the more i think it's quite clear that eventually given workforce the most workers will be run through e-verify eventually in any case. so we're past the days when an

employee stayed with one coming for ever, let's face it. this come with regard to safe harbors, i did want to make clear that if an employer is going to comply with the system he or she should have some sort of safe harbor from litigation either from enforcement, procedures by the federal government, or by an employee who may be wrong but because of some adverse information provided in the system. six, ma and kind of a more technical basis, but they're important to our members, is trying to change the statute such that the i-9 process which is largely no written document can be changed so that an employer can put, can pipe with information on the i-9 directly into e-verify, skipping sort of his paperwork step. and seventh, ms. lofgren talked about this, i think a new mandate needs to be rolled out in relatively slowly, perhaps we could related to border secured or some other criteria seems to be popular these days, but we're bringing a lot more people into the system so it should be rolled out slowly, and hopefully tested as it was rolled out so

we see some kind of, we get the kinks out of the system before applies to millions of new hires. and lastly, i think it's quite clear we all know about the problems with agriculture. it's sort of the 800-pound element in the room that we cannot talk about we do. they have a lot of unauthorized workers in the workforce. our country depends on that industry. we need to recognize that new e-verify system simply imposed on the industry would be a disaster but i certainly don't have a solution but we need to try to find one with regard to the application of the eu verify the agriculture. lastly i just want to note that we do support, unlike the president's bill, the abdication of e-verify to the entire work force. is building the exhibit something like 60% of all employers. and lastly, i just want to note that we have strongly supported e-verify as part of competence of immigration reform. will continue to do so. our four-plex and border security, more visas for the

high skilled lesser skilled agriculture, arrival employment verification system, and the means to bring the undocumented out of the shadows and give them something legal status in this country. and not blocking a pathway to citizenship. thank you for your consideration, mr. chairman. >> accuser. ms. tulli. >> chairman gowdy, ranking member lofgren, and members of the subcommittee, chairman gowdy, ranking member lofgren, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity to share the national immigration law center's perspective on e-verify. the national immigration law center has advocate for changes to e-verify since the program's inception, and continues to have great concerns about the program. e-verify makes all workers, citizens and immigrants alike, more vulnerable in the workplace. across the country labor law violations are rampant, and workers are regularly denied basic rights, like minimum wage and overtime. and too often we try and assert this right, they face