irate. it was his turn to be apologetic. he said, it turns out there's been activities in my house i haven't been completely aware of. the father said. she is due in august. the target statisticians had figured out that his daughter was pregnant before he did. all right. this is not even the creepiest part. that is their business. and it's also not their business. [laughter] it can feel more than a little intrusive. for that reason, some companies now mask how much they know about you. for example, if you are a pregnant woman, in your second try mister, you may get coupons in the mail for cribs and diapers. along with a discount an riding lawn mower and a coupon for free bowling socks with a purchase of any pair of bowling shoes. to you, it just seems gray

tootive they came in the mail along with the other junk. in fact the company knows you don't bowl or cut your own lawn. it's merely covering the tracks so that what it knows doesn't seem so spooky. >> you with watch this and other programs online. at booktv.org. from politics and prose in d.c., lawrence wright rights on the church of scientology. the author who interviewed over 200 current and former scientologists exams the church, recounting the history, and profile the founder, the late science fiction writer. it's about an hour. [applause] >> thank you, bradley. and thank you all for coming. this bookstore is a great institution, and it's -- i've been here many times.

i've spoken here many times, and my son used to be a baa baa rei stay here as a matter of fact. we have a lot of ties to politics and prose. and, you know, i thought i would talk a little bit -- there's so much to say about scientology. here i am in washington which has a unique role about scientology. i thought i would talk about how the history of washington played in to scientology. he was born in 1911, when he was 12, his father was stationed here, his father was in the navy . little ron came through the panama canal with his family, and that was a memorable trip for him because on that ship there was a figure who would change his life, and his name was lieutenant commander snake

thompson. many people used to say that man didn't really exist, but he did. he was a real figure, and he was -- part of his assignment in the navy. he had been a spy in japan and he was also a cat fancier. he was responsible for introducing burmese cats. he was a fascinating figure. he actually trained cats with according to ron. and he had a trained cat named psycho -- [laughter] anyway. young ron hub bard was on the ship coming through the panel canal on the way to washington, and snake william had just been vienna to talk to freud. he was writing an account for the navy. it had to do with the mental health of veterans and serving military personnel. he had gone to vienna to learn what he could from freud.

he brought some of the was in to the information to the young man. when they arrive in washington, a couple of things happen. he is a boy scout. he claimed to be the youngest eagle scout ever. regardless of his merits in that regard, he came and met calvin cool a.j. at the white house. he went to the library of congress and he read up on freud and snake thompson helped him through it. well, that was a turning point in his career. it happened right near washington. when -- it is appropriate that we meet here also in a bookstore when we're talking about scientology because if there was ever, i mean, ever movement in a way has a book behind it. you can always dig through the

movements and someone has written a book that changed the world. for ron that world shaking book was "die nettic" which came out in 1950, and it dominated "the new york times" best seller list in a way that i hope to emulate. [laughter] but it so much so that it sort of set the category for self-help books. it entame -- became so popular after the war, and the theory of die dinettic you can heal yourself. you don't need to spend a lot of money. all you need to do is get at the root of your problems, which are in a section of your mind called the reactive mind. and there are buried all the fears that have grown out of bad experiences you've had in your

lifetime. if you can recall them and leave them of your energy. you will clear reactive mind and rely entirely on your racial an let calamined. when you achieve that state, you will have gone clear. well, as i said, the book sold millions of copies, and ron made millions of dollars. and lost them as well. he even lost control of the name dinettic for a period of time. he decided there was another way of -- i jump ahead of myself. i missed a valuable part of washington history. he went to jw. his father wanted him to be an engineer, and he really wanted another -- he had another life in mind for himself. he was -- he was president of the gliding here at gwu, and he was quite an adventurous

character, but he didn't finish. he was a miserable student. he dropped out after two years although he claimed to have completed his education in engineering. that wasn't true. he went on to write books. and after that, he invented the religion, it's called scientology. well, what is scientology exactly? there's a lot to know about it. it's a very different world view created by a writer who had the specialty of science fiction. and so there are many elements in scientology that sound like science fiction. they were written by somebody who had written similar things in much of his fiction. in scientology, the idea is that you are an immortal soul. in scientology that is called --

you have lived before and you'll live again. what scientology can help you do is remember the past lifetime and achieve your salvation. it's good news to a lot of people. and in the course of therapy that scientology has is called auditing. the auditor, between you and your auditor, there's a device, it's called an emitter. two cans, you hold two cans. in the old day it is used to be campbell soup cans with the label scraped off. there's a wire connecting it to a meter and a small amount of electricity passing through the wire. it's one-third of the lie detector. it doesn't measure your pulse or res pa ration. it does something and so when you're thinking about to --

talking to your auditor the needle is constantly registering. in scientology, they think it measures the mass of your thoughts. they think thoughts have mass. and you can see the movement as they disaggregate say an old painful memory. it might show up on the meter. as you continually go through the thought, and drain it of the painful qualities, then the needle will slow down and pretty soon it no longer effects your behavior. if you have that happen to you, the next thing might be you would be asked there's an earlier event in your life that was like that? say it was an arguement with your wife. it was some other moment in your life that resembles that moment? you might say, yes, my mother once said the same thing to me when i was about 10. ly never forget it.

that's a vivid memory. let talk about it. it calms down and you go back further and further. and one of the things that happened during the period of time that ron moved again to washington, d.c., in 1957, living right around in due point circle. i'm sure many of you noted in one of the historic churches of scientology -- one of the most beautiful buildings in the neighborhood was one of the original churches of scientology. he and his family lived right around the corner. so much of his theologies was invented here. if -- during that period of time, people began to have memories in the womb. this was a controversial experiment in the history of scientology. could you really remember that far back?

could you robe arguments that your parents had while they were having intercourse or something like that? because people were producing such memories. and then they began to have memories even further back of a briefs lifetime. ron himself began to resist that, but eventually he endorsed it whole heartedly. now let's imagine we've had the argument with the spouse. you remember the argument with your mother. now you -- suddenly in your auditing you might have an image, and the auditor said what is that? stop there. what is that memory? i don't know i had an image of a farmhouse. well, look around, what do you see? you might say, well, i see horses, straw, you know. open the door and walk outside, what do you see? is it looks like whey imagine

france would look like in the 17th century. well, bear in mind the e meter might be saying this is true. this is real. if you believe that, it adds validity to this image that is then amplified in to what feels like a real memory. and that becomes a past life. and for many people, this is as real and vailed as other real memories they had the current existence. think how important it would be that knowledge that yes, i did live again. and therefore i am immortal. another thick that happened oftentimes in the circumstances is that people have the experience of leaving their body. scientology is called going exterior. they sense they have floated away. they can look around behind them and go to other planets. now i'm not trying to dem grate

the experiences that people have in scientology or other religions, but if you've had such an experience, what other people say about scientology, the criticism they might launch against the church isn't really going reach them. they had a transforming experience. they had information they find valuable in their lives. what you say really isn't going reach them. now there are a couple of questions that people often ask me, and i'm going treat them kind of quickly. i think they are important. was ron crazy? he is often seen that way, and he did have concerns that he expressed about his own mental health. he actually wrote to the veteran's administration for some assistance, and for some kind of psychology assistance.

we don't have any record that he ever got that. many people have given me the diagnoses. some professionals have weighed in with the terms like malignant are narcissism, paranoid schizophrenia. if you look at his behavior and his thinking, he does show signs of a lot of these things. but his -- i think nobody in history has ever mapped his own mentality as carefully as him. meticulously examining every detail just as a writer. here we are in our bookstore, i have to take my hat off to him. he hold a guinness book of world records he published more than a thousand title titles. he continuously wrote.

he wrote about the own entire your journey. that is what scientology really is. when you enter the church of scientology. it's like a breadcrumb trail in to his mind. the further you go in to the church, the deeper in to his mind you be -- go. on the crazy question, one way i look at him, if we were in another culture, say an ab aboriginal culture. they talk of schizophrenia being the shaman disease. people who have, you know, these experiences sometimes they in our culture we would say they're crazy and need to be on medication. but in other culturals, and other times people who have had extraordinary mental break downs or journey come back and have

feel like they healed themselves and they are the people that people go to to be healed. their mission is to heal their in their community. i think he somehow saw himself that way. he had a theory of his life that he propagated as the truth. he said that he was an heroic veteran of world war ii. he said that after the war, he was so badly injured that he was blinded and crippled and that medicine couldn't help him. he developed his own technique of healing and those are the technique that e volved to this and became the root of scientology. the record shows he was never injured in the war. he did have conjunctitis. there was nothing seriously wrong with him.

but the idea of the shaman's journey is buried in the legend he created about himself. now was he a conman? this is probably the most common perception of him. i think that if he really were a con man at some point in his life, he would have taken the money and run. he never did that. he spent his entire existence alone with the cans in the hand staring at the meter trying to find what was going on inside the vast universe inside his mienld. that was how he passed all of his time in creating bureaucracies to support this amazing theologies that he had come up with. now he died twenty seven years

ago today. he was succeeded by a young man named david who was 25 years old when hub board died. he was not the designated successor. he ruthlessly took control of the church. his one great legacy of david also took place here. when hubbard died he made a decision to not pay his taxes for the church of scientology, and by 1993, the church owed a billion dollars to the irs. it didn't have a billion dollars. it was an external moment. the church had to get a tax exemption in order to do that, it had to get the irs to recognize it as a religion.

an there's only one agency in the country that can determine whether you are a religion or not, and that is the irs. [laughter] an organization very ill equipped to make such distinctions. [laughter] so how did the church of scientology go about acquiring that exemption? well, they began by launching a series of lawsuits against the irs, 2400 against the irs and individual agents. they hired private detectives to follow agents, they even followed them to conventions and to see who was drinking too much or fooling around on the road. then they would write about those episodes in their own magazine so intimidation, forceful responses to the irs, and the irs was brought to its

knees. it was overwhelmed by this massive -- this cascade of lawsuits. but there was a problem that the church still had. it owed a billion dollars. so both of these entities were in trouble. one day david was here -- he's a current head of the church now and he was having lunch with gerald, one of the attorneys here in washington along with his wife mo'nique who roapts the church of scientology. they were having lunch at the bombay club, and he was with the deputy marty and he suddenly said to feffer, look, i had enough of this. marty and i are going the irs to talk to fred goldberg, the irs commissioner right now. the lawyers were kind of

stunned, and but indeed they jumped in a cab and went to 1111 constitution avenue. and walked in and said we're from the church of scientology. we want to seat commissioner. well, the commissioner wasn't really available that very moment but he quickly was. they had an interest in getting this resolved as well. now there may be good merit for the reason the irs made the the distinction that the church of scientology is a bonn bona fide religion. i don't know what standards they use to determine a religion, but in any case, the circumstance and the tradeoff was that the suits stopped and the exemption was granted. and once that happened, the vast privileges of protections of the first amendment guarantees of religion surrounded the church of scientology and protected it

until this day. so those events all took place in washington, d.c., and i thought i would give you a little bit of a historical background before i'm inviting you to respond with questions. thank you. [applause] >> yes, ma'am? thank you for coming. can you speculate for david? he seems to be such an abusive person to several of the, you know, people in hierarchy and several of his ordinary people that helped him for so many years. can you speculate? >> yes, i would be happy to talk about that. i'm not the first to talk about this, but i've had twelve people tell me that david physically assaulted them. i have more than twenty

witnesses. he wasn't the only one inside the church that was beating people up. he was the head of the church. and it's quite remarkable to think that, you know, that kind of behavior can go on. more over, people that were some of the people who are beaten and others were confined. there are reeducation camps called rehactation project force in different locations. ease specially in the -- especially in the desert compound in southern california, the clearing gi of scientology has the headquarter. a 500 acre compound. on the compound there are two double wide trailers that are married together. at one point he decided that he was going to start sending some of his top level executives there for kind of reeducation.

and they were the furniture was taken out. they slept on the floor on sleeping bags. they allowed out once day for a shower in the garage. they were supposed to query each other about their crimes. what has gone wrong? i'll tell you what went wrong inside of that? there was a lot of physical confrontation. a lot of abuse. more than 100 people at one point really the entire top tier of scientology management was confined in this. this has gone on for years. the nominal president of the church, an elderly gentleman, my friend john burnett could tell you stories about having interviewed him years ago. perhaps because of the way he treated john he had been locked up for seven years.

now i speak as an amateur here about tax law, but my understanding of a 501c3 is that at least one that the church was given there are lairs of accountability. there has to be responsibility along the line. one entity is accountable to the next. when you have one individual who can put all of the other individuals in to a double wide trailer for years on end, i don't know that you can say there's any other individual than david who has any power inside the church of scientology. i think the church is at the crisis point in the future. it's headed for a reckoning. if david is not willing to come forward and confront accusers, people in the church have a responsibility, i think, a moral responsibility to address those abuses. and i particularly charge the celebrities who have been used

to promote scientology with that duty because nobody else has done more to bring people to scientology. they have a definite responsibility understanding what is going on there. thank you. >> thank you. >> in the 1989, the u.s. supreme court hernandez v. the irs ruled that the basic form of fundraising, fixed donation was not an income tax dedeductble item. in october of 1993, fred goldberg evidently it's been alleged independently -- over rules that the u.s. supreme court that gave them that tax deduction. how in the world can the irs

overrule a judgment of the u.s. court? >> you're obviously better qualified to answer that than i. [laughter] one thing i would say, when they gave that exemption they awarded the power to the church to determine which of the own entities are tax exempt. i've been seeking that power myself. [laughter] another thing that they have is, you know, hubbard novels. they are tax exempt. they have nothing to do with the church's scriptture but it is judgment given to the church all of that falls under the jo jurisdiction of religious letture. >> before he disappeared that indicate against effortly publicly they spent $1 million in investigating the irs before that was given. >> yeah. >> who followups on something like that?

where do we followup with something like that? >> well, you know, i think that -- first of all, when you have a situation like that, it's an ideal place for an investigative reporter to go in and say, what gives here? i had many of the same questions that everybody has about scientology. i think the windows need to be opened. i've tried as much as i possibly can to crack them open. i have little cooperation from the church itself. but i think awareness in the public and demands publish officials we know more about it are called for. yes, sir? >> emily, please. >> have you personally been intimidated by scientology? this may be -- you may know, i heard that probably fifteen or twenty years ago that thyme time report her to change his name because his life became so intollble.

i know, they prevented or fear prevented the publication of your book in england. and my second part of the question talking about people being disappearing and being held against their will, when is the justice department? why isn't another branch of government looking in to this? >>let see if i can go through. you have to remind me if i don't hit every point. on the night -- no -- i just had a ton of legal letters. i'm not intimidated by them, you know, my last book was about al qaeda. [laughter] one thing i have learned, you know, al qaeda doesn't have any lawyers. [laughter] and if they did, they would be a dangerous organization. [laughter] the uk, yes, it's true. my british publishers backed out.

and it shows several things, one, in my american publishers has a lot of courage. and is willing to withstand all of these kind of shots across we have been receiving. i'm very grateful to have that kind of support. i've been asked by pen, the international writer's conscious to go to britain and talk to members of parliament and the minister of justice about the liable laws which are foreclosed in many cases the flow of information to people who might need information about an organization that could be dangerous. so i understand the stance of the brits on this kind of thing. we're going try do what we can to change it. i'm hoping to find another british publisher who is willing to do that. was there something else? oh.

okay. while i was doing my story for "the new yorker," i stumbled over an fbi investigation, and they -- their line of the tag was human trafficking. it typical this has to do with prostitution or something, but, you know, in this case two fbi agents in the l.a. office who specialize in human trafficking were looking in to the gold base and what the circumstance z, people being held against their will. children being recruited in to that organization that really young ages and taken out of school and pushed in to heavy service and impoverished by the service. these are all questions the fbi had. but the court ruled in one of the notable lawsuits that these are religious practicing. this is religious discipline in the term of the church, and the fbi ran up a white flag.

so but they come as far according to one of my sources. they were thinking of doing a raid on the gold base which is, you know, hyphenses and motion detectors and formedble. they were going break and open the door and liberate everyone. some of my -- and they got so far to think that david would try to escape and tom cruz's airport. they got the tail numbers on tom cruz's airport to make sure he didn't go away. what my sources told the fbi. if you were to break open and open the doors of the whole and say you're free. people would say you're here on the own will. that's why t the prison of belief. it's the will that hold them more than any other thing.

>> i was wondering for you came across a dollar amount that hubbard set out to defeat -- [inaudible] >> it seems there's money coming in but it doesn't go anywhere. >> well, no. there is a lot of money in scientology. when hubbard left the church, they didn't have that much money. he had a lot of money. a lot of money was transferred to the individual accounts. but, you know, when they had that huge liability to the irs, they just didn't have that much money. now they do. they do have according to former members a billion dollars in liquid assets and offshore accounts. now the, rs, i mean, the catholic church would a hard time coming up with a billion dollars in cash. that's a lot of money. ..

and if any thoughts as to why movie stars might be attracted. many years ago coming up in another country, i had a friend whose brother disappeared into a ship, about. it was -- you know, -- to people still disappear into this organization? and is there no legislation at all to tie to stop these characters? >> let me start with the ship.

in the mid-60s they created a little scientology armada. they sailed the mediterranean and in the caribbean. the young people that he hired to be the crew, you know, young sinologists were called this the organ, c organization. that became the clergy. and if if your friend went into that he probably became a member of the organization. he may have gotten closet and more of their compounds. they are not interests to deal with the outside world. so that might be what happened. now, as for celebrities. the church of scientology was designed for celebrities. it was founded in los angeles. celebrity center is there in hollywood.

it is one of the major landlords and all of hollywood, and early on but the church published a list of prospective celebrities for the church of scientology. hubbard wanted exemplary figures who would be pitchmen for his religion. and the names on the list were like bob hope, walt disney, marlene dietrich. the long list of some of the most notable people in america during the fifties. and people did billion. the former silent movie star who then came back in such story in sunset boulevard, but she joined the church of scientology. rock hudson made a brief appearance in the church. the early days. there are some other names that are not as current today, but steven board and so on. the big fish, the one that would be that transforming figure

included capture. the first of the biggest fish was john travolta. and his is an exemplary story in itself. he was a young, a troubled young actor who was doing his first movie in mexico, and he became friends with the actress. she had decided to give him a copy of diabetics. she was in scientology yourself. she gave him some dyanetic therapy and u.n. exterior, had an alibi the experience in a huge impression on him. and then many came back to los angeles asserted going taking courses at the solyndra center. one day he told his teacher that he was trying out for all in

welcome back cotter. so the teacher had everybody in the class, if you can imagine, orient themselves towards abc studios and telepathically send the message, john travolta for is right for the part. and he got the part. so after that he always said that scientology put him in the big time. i have a -- some concerns about -- travolta brings up the story that i think is also an important one. one of my sources, the life of all woman named speedy taylor. she joined the church when she was a young teenager. because of her charm and her bubbly nature, she was assigned to help young actors. one of the young actors was john travolta, to was just beginning to have this burst of fame. and it was hard for him to handle.

and she helton threw that emotional, difficult time. his mother died. you know, he really leaned on our. no, spain he had a little girl. she was pregnant. and a friend of hers was dying. and then she felt that the church does not to care for. she got angry, and she was sent to this old hospital on the edge of hollywood, big blue building that many of you have seen, big yellow sign of scientology on it that looms over the district. it is an old hospital, as i said. so many people crowding into the old patient rooms by the dozen that spanky was put up on the roof with the saudi mattress. she is pregnant, eating slop out of a bucket. she is in hollywood. look around. you can see sunset boulevard and all of this. just imagine the contrast. and her baby is taken from her

to a scientology child-care place where there is only one woman overlooking dozens of children. at one. spanky went over to see her baby , vanessa, and vanessa had whooping cough. her crib was soaking wet, and her eyes were glued shut with mucus. and spanky thought she would die. moreover, she was losing weight when she was pregnant, she thought she would lose her baby as well. so she was really, really scared. at this point, members of the church came to her and asked if she could get a printout of saturday night fever from travolta of. the deal was slushy agreed to call his assistant . he said he would give her a print. the only copley -- copy left.

his personal copy. the deal was, he had not heard from her for months and did not know what was wrong with her. but i think he must have suspected. he said, the deal is, i want to have dinner with you. okay. this scientology executives agreed to the deal, get the print, show the movie, and she is taken and forced to call travolta and break the date. he sent her flowers that were taken up to her. but i have to say what did he know, what did he know about his friend to read taking care of them? she finally made an escape, calling travolta as assistant to come pick her up she was going to take -- supposedly take her daughter for medical treatment and jump in the car and fled. but i still wonder, you know, when people like john travolta and tom cruise and other stand up and say what a great place scientology is, if they remember those occasions, if they

acknowledged the kind of abuses that were taking place right under their noses. >> thank you for being here. your fascinating. and what you're writing. >> thank you. >> my question is twofold. why aren't there any police reports like this other woman asked about, all of the abuse. people get on the freeways, take their passports away so that they don't have any money, they cannot escape. there is a show on tv is we got a pregnant woman who was forced to actually live in a parking garage while she was pregnant. why don't these people, after they defect, of their report this? number two, why do people stay, even though they are mistreated? >> well, these two questions are tied together. let me put you in the mind frame of someone who -- save someone who has been abused in that

desert compound. and it could be that suppose you join, like many of these people, when you were a child or maybe you were born into a. let's say that probably, you know, many of the -- many of your family members, maybe all of them are members of the church. your whole society is composed of people like you and scientology and probably end up sea org. and you don't have any hesitation to speak of. you are impoverished. you're given to shorts and two pairs of pants. all of your other needs come out of this money. so you don't have very much contact with the outside world. you're taught to be very suspicious of it.

non cy intelligence are called wogs. but it was adopted. and wogs justice is one of those things. you could go through the front door. it would mean turning your back on all of your family and friends into a society that you are very eloquent to go into, but if you did make that choice you would also be given a bill. it is called the freeloaders tab, and it is a bill for all the services that you might have been getting in that amount of time more arrows that want to add into it. typically this is hundreds of thousand dollars. you know, your bank account probably is not the flesh. you also may -- are made to sign

a confession of crimes that you supposedly committed. in case you ever say anything against the church, they will have this document, as i assume such documents, to be used against you. if you decide, on the other hand, to simply run away and you're able to get outside the gate and actually escape, as a number of people i have talked to have been able to, they will go after you and try to bring you back. and the ways -- and i talked to the guy that was in charge of that. they call it the blow drill. it is chilling. they're able to call airlines and persuade them that they are religious and medical emergencies and find out what lies there are. there will call people to sit outside a relative's house and monitor them. it is out in the desert. the usually the before you get very far. one guy, they know so much about

you. they got all of your financial information and everything you have to confess. one guy, what really got him is he was well-known for his love for baseball. it picked him up in the san francisco giants parking lot. you can see that this is a total universe. yes, sir? >> two things. one is follow the money. then they -- need for planets are in sight and want to bring the suit. just recently the couple filed suit in district court in florida for fraud. supposedly was some contractual basis with they're suit. to what to what extent this

dealer for the organization to face a new reality where it is not an individual simply trying to break free, was someone going after the money, something which is important to scientology and the establishment. >> well, this is an organization that is where lawyer got. and i talked to one of the lawyers to created the architecture, the bureaucratic architecture scientology. selling his three compartments that is impossible to break the bank. each one of them is isolated from the other. i wish them well. i think it is a formidable task to take down scientology. has to take itself down. it has to -- you know, somebody inside, there aren't really --

the reason that i take on the celebrities and a sign in his responsibility, a lot of executives are so cowered and have been locked up for such a long time no power that anybody has to really affect change of those frogman the cost of receipt. there the ones that charge for changing the church. >> how much fidelity is there in the portrayal in the movie the master and the processes that go on in the church. >> well, i love them. there are a lot of people that don't agree with me. it is obscure. my reading so much of their work of a very plausible reincarnation in many respects.

you kind of see the charisma and the contradictions in his personality that make him such a charismatic and compelling figure, really great figures are right about. there were actually bits of dialogue in the movie that are in my book, not that i wrote, but that someone else, sources that i use that turned up in the lives of some of the characters. actually was fidelity in a way. it does not intend to be inexact depiction of the church of scientology. just the lore of powerful personalities like that. >> to your of any meaningful average?

>> you say that the scientology organization does not believe that it sea org leaders, women should have babies. but if they deny it to you that it has ever pressured any pregnant woman to have an abortion, your book also says that numbers, pregnant women have said to you and others that they have been pressured by scientology organization to have abortions that they did not want to have. so can you explain how specific are the allegations of the pressure on the one hand and have specific, the denials as to the particular contentions and have you drawn a conclusion? >> i talked to a lot of women that said that they had abortions and that there were told to have abortions. and man who said that their wives, you know, were priced to

have abortions. is not just women that feel the loss. and some of those people are out now. they miss that opportunity. they used to be that there were children in scientology. they used to be on board ships and cause a lot of trouble. and there was a theory that children are not different from adults. they're just mall. therefore they should be treated as you would treat adult. so when a child misbehaves he came up with -- one of his punishment was to put them in the chain marker. that is the anchor chain is stored. cold and dark and dank and they would be fed there would not be

allowed to go the bathroom or go to sleep or a thing and it would be put in there for days and some of them for weeks. he put a girl down there in hopes that she would regain her hearing. so the treatment of children became a huge issue early on and finally it was decided, we cannot have them. we cannot have kids here because there would have a ranch for children. and the children essentially built their own dormitories and gave themselves cooling and so on. very, very little adult supervision. so it came to pass that the decision was made, no more kids, which meant that if you kept pregnant you had a choice to leave with all of the consequences that i told you about, losing your ties your families and so on and having very little to afford to and the sense of losing your eternal

salvation or you could wash out of the sea org be sent off to some remote location as a staff member. in the face of that a lot of people chose to have the abortion. and what they do is they get to county health, riverside county, charges to the taxpayers. >> my question is whether the allegations of pressure to have the abortion or to get your wife to have the abortion, are the specific? to them in some time, place, and how about the denials? of a specific tither that person not in scientology for the wife was of the scientology. the pressure wasn't. delegations of the abortions are individual with eleanor husbands with tommy this happened to me. you see sometimes, they specified is like that.

the church is responses categorical. we don't do that. >> i read a couple of your articles and another book about scientology, looking forward to reading one of your books in total. but this comes across as that terribly malevolent figure, including the way he pushed his way into. my question is, has he really been -- is he really doing something very much from the principals in still by hubbard? >> well, david miss cabbage and l. ron hubbard are different in one way, which is that he grew up in scientology. hubbard did not. you cannot say that david is not a creation of scientology because he joined it when he was

a young teenager. he joined the sea org when he was 19 after dropping in a vice cool. his entire adult life and most of his entire life has been live inside this organization, so he is a manifestation of it. many ex members think that he has taken the church away from the original teachings of hubbard. every religion faces an existential moment when the founder dice. mother is a prim young or paul, whoever. their religion is going to survive he did save scientology when you get the tax exemption.

the church would not exist if it were not for that however, the church is in disarray no i think that it is now time for the church to examine this. >> last question. >> tucker of the hatred and the things said tom cruise drives and nuts. hubbard, he was under the illusion that he was going to be acclaimed by any american psychological association and the american psychiatric association.

this is like psychological folk art. he would take this seriously. no evidence exists and the intuition that he drove on to imagines human behavior was something that is currently nave and a serving. ever after that he took no opportunity, left no opportunity to attack psychiatry, but he was more than that. he alleges that psychiatry is that there root of all human ills. everything, terrorism, racism, genocide, psychiatrists are behind it. when tom cruise jumped down

man-hours throat about brooke shields and said, you don't know the history of psychiatry, matt, i do, he is referring to is that he is referring to hubbard's belief that 4 trillion years ago, which is in the scientology calendar about when the universe began, psychiatrists rivera. and -- [laughter] and, you know the evil galactic overlord who is responsible for so much, he was surrounded by psychiatrists. and they came up with a plan to -- because they were over populated supposedly for tax

audits. [laughter] freeze them, says them and rocket ships that resemble d.c. threes to the prison planet. reeducate those spirits. put them in front of movie screens and showing them images of england. talks about jesus and the catholic church and so on. so that is where we all kind of come from. psychiatrists that are beyond all this. so in brief, that is the relationships of the church of scientology in psychiatry. thank you very much. [applause]

>> visit booktv.org to watch any of the programs you see here online. type the author or book title in the search bar in the upper left side of the page and click search. you can share anything you see on booktv.org easily by clicking share on the upper left side of the page and select in the format. book tv streams live online 48 hours every weekend with top nonfiction books and authors. booktv.org. ♪ >> i was fascinated by her feminist views, you know, none of the ladies, you're going to be in trouble. i'm paraphrasing obviously, but she won her husband, you know, you cannot rule without including what women want and what women have to contribute. and i mean, this is 1700. >> this monday night on c-span new history series. first ladies, influence and

damaged. called mrs. president by her detractors, she was outspoken about their views on slavery and women's rights as are the most prolific writers of the first lady, heat -- she provides a unique unto and colonial america and her work with john adams. turn the conversation on abigail adams live monday night at 9:00 eastern on c-span, c-span radio, and c-span.org. >> here is on the groups meet each other. and i'm condensing a lot of things. of giving you the basic just. sent off to fort leavenworth. a lot of people in the army did not really like him. they thought -- it all like officers who were too bookish or stood up too much. and he was very much guilty on both counts. he sent to fort leavenworth kansas and a lot of people in thinking, oh, that's great. the fare haired boy, they're sending him off to pasture, naturally.

but he gets to leavenworth and realizes something. he realizes that this is actually the intellectual center of the army. they write doctrine. they formed the curriculum of the commanding general staff college. they organized the natural -- national training centers and the lessons from one affects the lessons of the other which affects the patterns of the next. and he says and self-esteem is learning how will this, what kind of power see potentially has. holy cow. he talks like that. he says things like : cal in jeepers, super. he says, holy cow, they put an insurgent in charge of the engine of change. he views himself as an insurgent now, meanwhile, meanwhile, there are a lot of meanwhiles in this book. meanwhile the mother is a professor at the school of advanced international studies in washington d.c. and the eminent military historian, also a leader of

neoconservatism here is one of the people signing petitions that we have to invade and overthrow saddam by force. he is also a member of the defense policy advisory board. and so he goes over to take a look at what is going on. the only member of the board that goes there. he sees it is a disaster. there is an insurgency mounting, and no one knows what to do about it. he comes back fearing and being really upset because, again, feeling kind of panes of guilt because camino, he was advising this administration. he advocated for this war. his son who graduated from harvard had recently joined the army and was going to be send in to this mess that he sort of helped create. so he thinks -- well, he has to do something about this. he sets up a seminar in basin harbor, vermont. he goes through his rolodex and through military journals. he invites everybody that he can

find it as written anything remotely interesting about the subject of counterinsurgency warfare and comes up with about 30 people. they all assemble in basin harbor for five days to discuss these things. the pivotal thing about this meeting is not so much what they discussed as that they met. once these people did not know each other before, of one of his existence. they thought that they were out on a limb, you know, on a daring them to a riding such that no one was going to read that was weigh against what was going on in the major marry some of them were mid-level officials within tintypes and they realized this was a community. so they come away with their great sense of mission he knows

a lot of the people. some of them wore is students or his colleagues or people who had been under his command. he decides one thing that he will do in leavenworth is write a new counterinsurgency field manual for the army. there has not been one for 20 years. he draws on this crew from the basin harbor conference to be his inner circle, his aides, the people that help him write this conference. outside the usual doctrinal channels within the army. so four things happen at the end of 2006. one, made year -- midterm elections. democrats win. bushfires rumsfeld and hires robert gates. to, it is announced that petreaus will be going back as the top commander. number three, bush announces that he is ordering a surge of

troops. another 20,000 troops. and he is changing strategy to the essentially a counterinsurgency strategy. he calls a clear, hold command bill, which was an old phrase that came out of some of these books. the idea being the you clear an area of insurgents, then you stay there, hold it, you don't just turn it over right away who are not yet capable of holding. you stay there, and then you help build an infrastructure and help the government provide basic services, build trust within the community and the security structure. so these four things did not happen by coincidence. it was all part of this plot. by the like, i use the word plot i generally and not a conspiracy guy. these people refer to themselves as a plot. they call themselves the ball or the west point mafia because a lot of them came out of the social science department of west point which had a tradition of forming networks among their

our graduates. so, for example, all of this happened not by coincidence. for your example, petreaus, when he was in leavenworth, was not sitting there. he had a vast network throughout the pentagon bureaucracy. he deliberately forms of back channel. he cultivates the woman and the white house he sees that he is wavering. they form a back channel. tucker elevon practically every day. picture this. really kind of outrageous. a three-star general. fort leavenworth, talking on the phone every day with the senior adviser to the president of the united states. she will be asking him, general

casey, the 4-star general actually commanding troops, general casey says we only need one more brigade. what do you think? petreaus would most of these arguments that she could falter seniors on why this really isn't enough. so when it comes to washington, out of the way restaurants. by the way, this is not a paul lebron will situation. the sister of a professional. you know, can you imagine, this is someone, essentially subverting the chain of command to get his own views across. he is always been an off the reservation guy. written the study advocating a surge at the american enterprise institute.

petreaus and his contracts lose their connection to get the study into the white house directly to the president coming into the pentagon to the new secretary of defense to some of the subordinates who are chasing the restrictions so that basically by the time petreaus becomes the top commander everything is all lined up. it's all lined up so that he can go in and impose a strategy that he wants to impose with the full imprimatur of the united states government, army and the president of the united states. this is not a coincidence. has all been very explicitly coordinated. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> we are here with senior columnist for newsweek, the daily beast, and political anchor of new york one. they and their colleagues have written the second volume of the book deadline artist, a collection of america's greatest

newspaper column. this one focusing on scandals, tragedies, and triumphs. >> and we did not even know about the petreaus scandal before happened, but we can say confidently we believe this is the best booked here because we did not write it. >> that is, indeed, true. we went out and collected dozens and dozens. we read through hundreds and settle on several dozens and put it together for people like newspaper columns. you cannot refine them all in one place. we went and did the picking for you. >> send this is really a great american art form. your repeople, you know, ernie pyle, murray. you realize that this is literature. american art form. its literature, and its history written in the present tense giving your perspective on our own times, on our own scandal's, tragedies', and triumphs. >> you can read and a very dry weigh about earthquakes or floods or political scandal, or you can read about the way people were talking about and thinking about it. the best writing about it is at the time. >> i think we think of our

scandals in contemporary terms like there is no precedent. maybe you can close in on the scandals from the 30's, 40's or 50's's that would make something to the look tame. >> and that is what this book does. one of the things, it gives a perspective on our own problems. when you read about any of the scandals, and we have the adjacent sin, the monica lets the scandal. we have kathleen parker's riding on that. but you go back to david runyon writing about the health upon trial or the death of john devonshire, you know, we have september 11th in our contemporary times, columns why steve lopez and peggy noonan and michael daley and then you read about jack london talking about the 1906 of a consensus coke and it really does create a sense of perspective. we have been through a lot of this stuff before. there are great storytelling and creates a perspective. >> the destruction of galveston which is almost never talked about was i texas.

it puts to shame what just happened in new york with hurricane sandy. hundreds of thousands of people affected, destroyed, and to read about it and see that there were people on the ground to know about it and cared about it and you are even wondering at the time, will anybody remember this when years have gone by, what people remember what happened to this town, and it is important for people to get the perspective. >> and we balance the scandals, tragedies with france as well because, you know, it is amazing. when you read the "washington post", when you read david runyon's calamari calls james braddock the cinderella man which is later made into a movie. we found it in the new york public library. also the first time. see get these great coming inspiring stories along with the stories of scandal, tragedy, and triumph. and with a new cycle we're in right now involving the sex scandal, and it really does show you, we have been through this up before. the details are always different

, but every generation replaces a morality stories. >> for people like to read 320300 comments after some blockbusting, maybe take a look at what some other people had to say about the human condition about politics, about the way things go in this country. you can really learn quite a lot >> and you can read it on the go, to. >> media is, i guess -- we look at our current wednesday the media and the destruction to the point where is there a columnist now that everyone reads and can have a discussion about, or is it to the part where we have our own small leashes of our interests and to lead to an end to on the web or on cable television and then we go back and have our small discussions. >> it is a great question and a great point. while the boys we make in the intro of the book is that, you know, it is beginning to be possible to see the outlines of what they called the newspaper era. and the way that of walter lippmann and in the mid 20th-century, that particular

perspective, you know, might be gone. the proliferation of voices and democratization of opinion i think it's probably healthy in the long run. but what this book shows us is that to me know, the folks to approach this debate, it becomes very predictable and almost reads like a talking point. those will not last. the storytelling, telling people stories, characters camino, the struggles against long lives, those stories and door. and part of what we love this book as journalists, working journalists, it shows the importance of the endurance of the reporting column and is an art form that is not used as much as it was in the past, what we really do depend upon it. we have that balance of objectivity in such activity. grace telling -- storytelling with the sense of moral purpose and personal perspective. >> important to keep in mind now as always you can see people across different platforms. a couple of articles in here, and you can read them in the boston globe or see the morning

joke. it is not as if these papers are completely divorced from the rest of the media at this point. we just appreciate people know how to telling this story. >> and so many people. they're not necessarily running for the big papers, but revoice is. all of them correspond. >> final question. the subtitle is scandals, tragedy, and france. france's last. scanlon tragedy before that. as it always been that case? every always loved scandals and watching others fail? >> putting it together, some of us have a tabloid background. our third co-editor and i used to write for rival tabloids. we gravitate toward scandal and tragedy. and as we look through them there is always a lot of0

scandals, tragedy, and france, and there's a reason people gravitate to it. it was great about it is but the reason we came up with the tunnel deadline artists, this is are written on deadline, an improvisational art form still being done every day. incorporated like never run for, but i do think it is important to in with triumph, something redemptive and positive. that is our moral compass north that while we always pick up the paper to find out the latest gadget or scandal or tragedy, it is the triumph beverly regan said at the end of the day and it is important to focus on that. >> scandals, tragedies, and trials. thank you so much.

>> a group of 20 years old. and i am launching an organization that is going to try to save a butterfly in indonesia that is in danger of extinction. raise your hand, those of you that would like to help me in saving the butterfly? you will find that among the 20- year olds and others, you would find people interested in doing that, which is great. then go and have the same group, who was to join me in a political party. you want to join the republican party. you will see that you know, far fewer would be willing to volunteer their time and effort and passion in joining a political party. and that is bad. i think political parties need to us modernize, need to become more attractive to young people, indian professionals because political parties are the essence.

even have democracy without strong political party. >> tonight at 10:00 eastern, part of book tv this weekend on c-span2. and look for more book tv on line, like us on facebook. >> new mexico is teeming with western legends from kit carson to billy the kid. next, we see a rare first edition of the authentic life of billy the kid published in 1882 and signed by pat garrett. mr. garrett is known as being responsible for the debt of the well-known teenage tell-all. book tv. >> today you are in the historic zimmerman library built in 1935. we are in the conference room which was at one time one of the rooms used for rare books and

materials, which was pretty appropriate since the sentiment here is the 3 million volume library which will be celebrated in april 1st. and that 3 million volume is the authentic life of billy the kid, one of the single most, probably most important books of western americana, certainly for mexico, but also for the west, and one of the most rare is as well. really know of just six copies of this particular edition that is autographed in the country, and three of those, we know, are in private hands. one is here. the other two we're not as a fish or they are. they're not in any other institution, so it is really a pleasure for us to have this rare material in our library. >> is important because it really sets the stage. it is the fountainhead for although -- of billy the kid history are not history, as you can imagine. the myth and the intertwining of

the myth and legend of billie the kid. the facts really stem from this book. pat garrett wrote this book in response to a lot of other books being printed in new york city and on the east coast the really exaggerated the kid and thomas mann became a hero. and pat garrett was then being seen as being the guy who ambushed billy, who killed billy and he wanted to set the record straight for writing his biography of billy the kid and alan all happened. so it becomes the first account, the only first in the count we have of what happened that day in july of 1881 in fort sumner, new mexico. at least from pat's perspective. and but it is -- it is what everybody else takes the facts from. there is this book. and so this really is the first

edition, the first printing, and an autograph or complementary copy by the author, it makes it extremely rare, and one that is, i think, almost unheard of, even to find now. mike said, just so few of these still available, which is funny because when they were first published may be 1,000 copies were made, but pat kept a small number of books that are in this special red calf leather binding that really makes it unique because, like i said, it is just the presentation copies that have made that he gave to important people and dignitaries that had his compliments. the other copies were never bound. there were just lose it -- lose, and the person who had the actual book would either have it down themselves or leave it on a

round. again, here is the title page with billy's picture. and this actually is an engraving from the original, the only known picture of billy the recently sold for over $2 million to my belief. so even the image is pretty rare. but for folks that were given this and just listen and they added blinded themselves. and that really did not help the sales as well. and the story goes that these were on sale in santa fe and there was a bushel basket of them, not the red ones, with the other copies for quarter apiece. they could not sell them, even for quarter apiece. someone can buy and bought the whole bag, a bushel basket of these a month off. like to know that was, we don't know. it was not the moneymaker that they all thought it would be. of course because of that it is so rare to have that kind of a

history with this book. >> at think the most interesting part is where the cultivation of the book. pre-show or that billy is in the house. it is almost like a television detective show. they know that the bad guys in that house and in no there are civilians in that house. have they go about getting the desperado. so just the idea when he creeps into the house and goes into the bedroom and confronts because it is not know where billy is. even though he's in the house. you imagine, there's no lights. there's not much light. so you really have had venturing into a place he does not know, where a murderer might be in

goes into the bedroom and confronts the owner in pretty much says come his see here? have you seen him? and that is where pete maxwell says he has been around. he does not say he is here now. he has been around. so, you can imagine, pat's level of anxious anxiety. fear because you don't know where this fellow is. so when billy comes down the hall and into the bedroom and says to be, you know, who were you talking to? your these people? because he knows there are people on the front porch. that is when that backs up into the dark corner. that is the moment time that the decision is made, do i take him in a live, do i try to overpower him? to a shooting? what happens? and that is the time that only pat can tell us about because he is the only ones still around the was there when it happened.

so when he says that billy drew his gun because he had a gun and knife. when he drew his gun and had shot them, it was in pat's mind self-defense. billy was going to shoot him. and, again, that becomes the real crux of the entire story. did that really happen that way? did billy really raises gun or did pat shoot him? it is this series of things. you're waiting for the big climax. those few minutes of time that really bring all this together really is exciting. >> for a while he was the darling of new mexico. captured, killed the law, billy the kid. and it really is a short time

people start asking a question, was believed -- was a fair fight? did he really have is done pulled? did he really -- was he shot in the back macaulay's question started to be asked about pat garrett. so all of a sudden he was feeling like he was being -- becoming the villain instead of the euro. so he then talks tough a friend of his named marshall who was a gymnast from back east. and he asked him to of write this book that was the true account once and for all of what really happened. i think more than anybody else you wanted people in mexico to read it. he was feeling, i think, the sting of being now a tyrant or the bad guy. when he really saw and self as the hero to the people in mexico

for capturing this fellow and taking this fellow off the streets. so even when he was first -- when this first happened, when he first killed billy, the governor had offered a $500 reward for the capture or death of billy. and when pat went to get his $500 a governor did not want to give it to them. the citizens of new mexico raised a thousand dollars to give to him because they were so pleased with put he did. again, i think that for pat that was important. think that when that started to be questioned as to what really happened. was billie unarmed, was shot and the back and all these rumors started going around, pat really wanted the people of mecca -- new mexico to know, and that is why -- that is why i think that he did not go toward the east coast publisher to publish this. he wanted it published in santa fe. it will be available to the people of new mexico to get and

read and learn. again, that was one of the reasons why it wasn't as successful because it was -- distribution was bad indigested not get out to worry wanted it to get out. so pat, in the end, even though he wrote this for the short term, did not really benefit from getting a story out. but in the long term is becomes the true sought in the head for all stories about billy the kid because it was from the first an account, and you have other -- over the years, people being interviewed to wear there, either on the porch or coup came in after words or from even peak maxwell saying what really happened. and some folks said he was never a shot. so even as latest three weeks ago there were trying to resume his body to make sure you is in that grave at fort sumner.

a lot of questions which makes it so interesting as an historical phenomenon that intertwines fact and fiction and legend and myth all into one person and into this one book. it's a great thing for us to have come up for our students and faculty to use and to see that original piece. >> you have to understand, all of the founders primary concern, number one, numero uno was with national-security. so what were they say, for example, about a company such as lockheed. i am of the opinion that based on how they acted in other instances they would have grudgingly favored of bailout of lockheed because it supplied the united states at the time. .. ho