after her husband's death. today within 70 countries recognize our right to health care in their constitution. virtually every industrialized nation could take the steps to implement by a establishing universal health coverage with one major exception. . .

csi pleasure to moderate the panel on the new book ban list and it's my honor to introduce you to this panel. i want to say by way of introduction, i am a proud veteran of the -- american studies program and it's just too bad they didn't lead me to anything good in life. [applause] so you know, before we get started i just wanted to say something that you know this isn't really about looks. it's about our children and it's about the freedom of thought and i just want to tell you that we

are really blessed to have students here with us right now today. [applause] i wondered if you would all stand up for a second. could you all stand up for a second? [applause] [applause] these are our children. that's what it's about. i want to introduce you to the editor of "ban this!", one of my favorite people in the world and somebody who is really doing the battle, santino rivera poet editor activist and as i said to the kids that we met earlier today, and this is a complement. he is an activist and i ask santino asked santino to introduce the panel of people. i'm a little -- with these folks up here but thank you. i'm going to turn it over to

santino. >> hello, welcome. thank you all for coming in and it's an honor to be here with you. [applause] i am a publisher, independent publisher and author and being here is a dream come through. this book was hatched out of what has happened in tucson and through this amazing journey, here we are presenting to you and bringing it to you in person. it's very humbling and it was very humbling to meet the students, who this is directly affecting. i was able to reach out through the internet through social media and go coast-to-coast and bring together -- you can see one of the slides has all of the authors i was able to contact. some of them are rock stars like luis here and gustavo arellano

here on the and other ones that ones that are up-and-coming and part of the next generation of chicano authors. the things we were trying to tell these kids this morning is that they are not alone and the whole world is watching. it's really kind of mind-blowing and surreal in a twilight zone kind of way that we are here this day and age talking about censorship of literature and of arts. and really of history. so let me just thank you again for coming. let the introduce everybody. you guys know luis, and internationally best-selling author. this guy is one of my heroes. i was telling the "arizona daily star" the other day that a lot of american literature courses push walt whitman. i like to push luis because both

are american literary treasures and both need to be recognized. [applause] we are talking about people that are afraid of the word chicano and should,. it's one of those loaded terms nowadays because of of the way politics roles that we are talking about american authors. this is american literature. this body of work, it's american studies and it needs to be recognized and embraced by everyone. we are just like everybody else, so that is part of the reason that we are here. but the introduce the rest of the panel. to my left we have sub10 from albuquerque new mexico. she is an author, poet and musician. she's got an amazing poem in the book and i hope you guys check it out. to her left we have lizz huerta

who is an educator author and poet and she is from san diego california. she has really mind-blowing amazing pieces in this book. one in particular is the games that kids play. and then on and we have another rock star with us who was gracious enough to lend his talents to this book into this panel. this is gustavo arellano and if you don't now, he is coast-to-coast in weekly papers and i think some dailies too. okay, just weeklies. this is ask a mexican so if you have ever opened the paper and seen that character guide with the sombrero, he answers questions from anybody and everybody about mexicans. this is him. he is also the editor of the oc weekly in orange county and the author of taco usa, how mexican

food conquered america which he will be talking about later today. it's a real honor for all of us to be here with you and to present this to you. i'm going to hand it back to luis. >> and awesome panel. [applause] >> santino and i spent a lot of time talking about this issue on twitter and now all morning. and the thing that has really been haunting me lately is this, and i thought it would be useful first question. i cannot comprehend why when the issues began to transpire here, that the first national media coverage was in france and england and russia and the united states didn't pick up on it for quite a while. i am curious. i'm not saying any kind of

conspiracy or any other thing but i don't understand what that is about. i know you will have an opinion but i was wondering, what was it that kept the mainstream media from really pursuing this story for quite a while do you think, in this country? >> well i think this is been going on for a long time. we were talking about the chick, movement which goes back decades and there was a chicano journalist in l.a. who was killed by the police during the chicano moratorium. i've been reading a lot of his stuff and i noticed back in the 70s that the word chicano was part of of the national lexicon in those times. it was spoken about in congress. there was an article in "the wall street journal" about chicanos in east l.a. and of movement going on. over time we really have gotten away from that word in that

history. that word has become a very scary word because of people's fear and ignorance. and i think a lot of the media and a lot of people have clung to pushing that word and anything related to that ward off to the side. it's kind of a hushed kind of word. so i think it's almost accepted in the media nowadays and if it has anything to to do with mexican-american studies archer, studies or anything -- at disney would have to relate to the study. if you're not talking about immigration or a latino voting block the media won't really talk about it. they will use words like latino and if you use the word mexican or chacon know it scares people. it shouldn't. we are talking about books and we are here for the festival of the books which has a big tinge

of irony in it. books are tanned and that's an bizarre kind of barney. i just think people are usually afraid to echoes of ignorance. if people would just look and read these books. read occupy in america or any of these and authors. form your own opinion. these are just words and this is just a book and these are just ideas and this is just literature. i am hoping that through us being on c-span and three people being here who may be from the area or out of town, where the you agree with agree with that or not and you enable say we don't need to be afraid of literature. we don't need to be afraid of books so hopefully that will carry on. >> i think when we are talking about coverage in the media and

why was this a big deal right away and why did this get national coverage, think specifically because it's about chicanos and we are pushed to the margins and he raced oftentimes and i think you know really looking at the literaturs by chicano authors that were banned even though that was the majority of the books. often times we are left out of the national conversation and especially in the southwest. we don't make national media a lot of the time and when you are really talking about something like banning books what we are really talking about is an act of racism. you can cut it in slices anyway you want about education but we are talking about racism and no one not wants to talk about racism anymore. there's this idea that chicanos don't face any kind of racism. we are not a racist country

anymore. someone was talking last night about this idea of oh why don't you just get over it already? we don't get over it has you keep putting our hooks into boxes and you keep passing laws against us. this is and just tapping in arizona. mexico is right on that line of putting brown people in the crosshairs. really when we are talking about where we ignored by the media because we don't want to call it what it is, and that of racism. >> going back to the question, it's more of an indictment of the mainstream media today. santino was right, during the 70's chicanos were all over and even the word and coverage. one of my all-time favorite magazine covers came from "sports illustrated". i think it might've been 1970. the picture was the great minnesota vikings quarterback. plain and simple didn't even try to water down.

they said sure, which i'm sure for the rest of the country, that's not a chicano name and sports illustrated treated as an aside. we have to beg the media to cover not just stories of controversy but treating latinos and chicanos, really the indictment of the media and especially nowadays with media consolidation, i see it getting worse and worse at the great salvation is social media, is people who were not trained journalist that generally become bloggers on their own and spread the message. in fact i found out via what's going on with african-american studies by blog and facebook and twitter. i didn't have to rely on "the new york times" or any other media outlet and again not an indictment indictment to the

media but that also shows the path forward i would say, the path forward to garrett passed these know nothings and go to the heart of the matter and teach what needs to be taught. >> i think it has to do with being in the other in the media. the others are ignored and it basically says to me anti-u.n. people who are chacon is, you don't exist. you don't matter. your history does not matter over and over again. >> that will be the headline. [laughter] so when this issue comes up i am repeatedly reminded by people there is no banning. there was no banning. they were rocks. you are boxed. i think that is a really interesting thing because as i told somebody who wrote a log on my face but page about this and

i said the problem is what happened here people can't think of another phrase for banning. boxing does not work. boxing seems to me the way to say it was soft banning. and i think the short hand has hurt to some in arizona because the shorthand of the book banning is in arizona or book banning in tucson. check it out on google. there are over 28 million hits under tucson book banning and that's really scary. that to me does not reflect tucson arizona. but that is the picture now in our country. so i want to ask you about that. the sly use of terminology to manipulate what the story might be on all of our sites perhaps. i'm not going to say we are all deleted that there is this weird

use of newspeak and bureaucratic to reap purpose and repackage the agenda. talk to me about being boxed rather than banned. your book could have been called box this. [laughter] >> i don't think that would work. and actually the idea for the title came directly from luis. we were talking on twitter and we were really fired up and angry about it and we were talking about terminology. he said if you want to publish an anthology and call it banned this. as i said i'm going to run with that, minus the other part. >> too much coffee that morning. >> was brilliant but talking about spinning something.

we lived in the ages of span and of rhetoric now. ever since the 80s when reagan rolled back some of the laws that said that you had to present both sides of the story and you had to present evidence. that was the birth of things like "fox news." nowadays you have spin on everything. when this happened people came out of the woodwork saying you are lying. that's a lie. they weren't banned. they were just boxed. they were just put in the closet the kids still have access to these books. they just have to go and get them, which is insanity because we were talking with some of the students today and we were talking with curtis who is one of the teachers. he has had to totally reformulate almost 20 years of teaching because he feels like his brain is encased in barbed wire inside of his head. i think he said he has illegal

thoughts. you start putting away the books and you know that's a simple act you might want to save doxing but what are you really saying by that action? what are you really saying by doing this? you're saying this book is illegal in this book is dangerous. this book is that. the words you are reading are going to work him i didn't you're going to do awful things like go to college and get educated and become a productive member of society. you can hear curtis saying the horror of an educated brown mind. that's really what you are talking about but they will spin it in some of the media does a too. they will say these guys are griping and complaining and there's not really a big deal. these kids can go to library. if you have ever dealt with kids that age, not all of them but just trying to get them

interested in learning and reading and taking literature as a task for themselves and if you take that out of the classroom classroom -- take so much effort for them to do it on their own. sure they can go to the library but that seems silly when they can have a part of their own curriculum. you have to think about the spin people put on it. they save box but what they are really talking about is putting barbed wire from the students and the teachers because they are now afraid to even think of things that might get them in trouble. >> when i first heard about the band or the box or whatever you want to call it, it hurt me in a way that anything else hadn't hurt me. s.b. 1070 made me really mad and when i heard about the laws and all the other states that were copycat, passing copycat laws

that made me angry but the book ban hurt me and mainly because when i lived 15, 16, 17 i was lucky enough to have interns copying pages out of occupy america and having data that i started seeking out and reading it on my own and just finding all this chacon a literature using words that made sense to me and using ideas that open up my mind. the fact that this was being taken away hurt me in a way that nothing else had heard. i think when it gets explained away like a oh we have lost it. it's an insult to my intelligence. it's an insult to your intelligence and the students who say okay you want to take away our books? do it on our own time on saturday morning after school. i commend you for that because at some point we get to the

place of realization that we don't need a system handout. to paraphrase we weren't supposed to be a part of it anyway so the packet you are doing it on your own, keep doing it that way. the fact that we send tina brought us together to publish this book, that's going a round someone who didn't want those words to access the fact that you are still here when you weren't meant to be anyway speaks volumes about who you are. they can box these and we are not going anywhere. [applause] >> i think it's terrifying that you would take something, when you ban something and you say you're putting it in a box because when does it and? what is the next thing you are going to put in a box? when rights are taken away its done incrementally to the point

where you don't notice. what's that matter for? if you put a frog in cold water and turn the heat up slowly and it doesn't realize it's being cooked until it is dead. i think that could very well happen. boxing, it's terrifying that they use language and taking something away that sacred and absolutely necessary. >> what is most interesting about this is that people who are advocating this, they are using excuses to justify what they are doing which is identifying books is somehow being evil and so terrifying that we cannot have our children or let our children be exposed to reading them. that alone, you want to talk about newspeak. they are justifying their own excuses and what is even more telling is that some of these books, i know how they basically got them. it was based on american studies

so it's automatically evil so let's ban it all. they did not read a single book. i just found this out yesterday. one of the books on the list actually goes back to where i am from an orange county california. it's evil conservative orange county. it's taught in the schools and it's taught in high schools because it's an inspiring true story of a woman who grew up in poverty, grew up as a gang member and turned her life around and now is as a police officer going after gang members. if you want to get on the conservative level these are one of the role appeared with straps fables that would be lionized across the united states happening to a non-mexican woman that was not being taught by mexican-american studies but the fact that it is makes it evil. they can speak all they want but

the very idea that they are happening shows it's just -- [speaking spanish] [applause] they have they told us we could say stuff than spanish. the english translation is another act. [laughter] >> talk about spin. god loves you. and don't forget sean are so used to hypnotic burrito to hypnotize students do his bidding. these guys. i am really interested in some of these issues on a greater stage and we are starting to get to this. i'm always nervous and i said this to you all last year too.

i'm really nervous to come here and lecture in tucson. it makes you feel like the carpetbagger. i come down here from chicago to hell -- tell you people in arizona how you should live. my wife is a reporter in the tucson system. you were a good home for me. so i know it feels like home and a certain sense and it concerns me but it concerns me about the bigger home as well. we were wondering if in fact what is happening or has happened with these books and really it's not about the books like i said earlier. it's about larger issues about the fate of the kids and so forth but is this the canary in the coalminer? this is the harbinger of what may be afoot elsewhere?

>> this is obviously something that's been going on forever. how long have parents in groups than fighting against classic titans of american literature, huckleberry finn, know what the caged bird sings. this happened with your book and latino anthology, this is going to happen forever and ever. but i think what is so galvanizing that would say about what's happening in tucson is that it's not taking on a full, i would say a body of work. mexican-american chicanos studies. not all were mexican-american studies that people were finally realizing that latinos and especially mexican-americans are now all across the united states. we know this from the 2012 election where the republican party we had a candidate who recycled a -- of self

deportation. he thought he was going to get people to vote for him. instead latinos -- -- a day later with the republican party yeah, yeah applaud that. now republicans are oh my -- there are latinos. who cares if they been demonizing them for the past 25 five years. let's last demonize them now but it's going to continue to exist. this is galvanizing for those of us in the trenches who say okay if you're going to go after literature you find subversive view of art up in going after civil rights in the up and going after language and you've been going after us for 20 some years if you really want to take a back to the old days, 150 years, you been going about this for while and now they're going back to books. that needs to learn the language in the love of literature?

you're that desperate to keep your last gasp alive? all right, let's do it. [applause] >> i like what louis said about trying to say we are here. when the reality is people of tucson and across arizona have been fighting for a very long time. the reality is in mexico we get this idea that this happened here and we are a majority state it did happen in new mexico in 1996 in a tiny town. they are sisters and teachers and they started teaching chicano studies. it was you know not a big deal. all of a sudden the principal who was also chicano because in mexico they have this whole identity thing going on.

that's for another panel. but you know, the principal started coming down on them so they started teaching chicano studies and teaching the tolerance curriculum from the southern property law center and they got tired for being subversive. they won their lawsuit eventually and now they teach in albuquerque. they are a blessing and a treasury that we forget that this happened in new mexico. we have the first female latina governor santa martinez who is horrible for latino people. she is part of every branding of republican and she is gunning for undocumented people and gunning for everybody. i a lot of us, we are watching what's going on in arizona but a lot of us are watching the fight that's happening.

we are gearing up to fight in our own state and we have to support each other. these orders don't exist. these borders don't exist between us. we are a sovereign people and we deserve and we have to demand our rights. and so definitely no one is coming in and saying this is what you need to do in tucson. we all have it figured out. we don't let we have to do what's right. >> just expanding on this canary and also what gustavo was talking about it's like okay, if that's what you're going to do than we are going to fight you and like luis said, i attribute attribute -- my parents were part of the chicano movement back them and that's just how i was raised. i was talking with the students earlier. when i was in high school it was the early 90s and that was a very tense time. a lot of the pop culture back then was very angry.

if you listen to the music from that era, public enemy and rage against the machine and a lot of the art and poetry. everything about that time was about fighting back. i think we have lost a little bit of that. we have become passive. the internet is great and social media is amazing. i wouldn't be here without it i think one of the bad things about social media is that big important issues get passed over very quickly. i think that now that this struggle in this fight was it to our attention last night, this is a federal issue now. now there is a federal court that's going to uphold the span on ethnic studies. this is gone beyond being a single city and being a state to look at arizona and say what's going on in arizona? this is a bedrock issue and this

should scare the hell out of everybody. everybody should be very afraid of censorship. we have the right to freedom in this country and when that is threatened, people need to pay attention. coast to coast the media teachers, lawyers, doc there's everybody should be standing up and saying do you know what? is as this is dangerous. if they're going to start banning those books they are going to start looking at everybody else and like gustavo was saying it's been going on for a long time. people usually take up arms and fight back coast-to-coast. whatever reason when it comes to chicano studies it gets glossed over. that angers and infuriates a lot of us and i'm hoping that we can bring more people to the fight. we are all in this together. there is a lot a lot of diversity just in the front this round. talking about chicano studies we are all americans in this room and our history is american history.

they cannot deny that. >> i remember a professor one of the experts in history and she debated dinesh d'souza and he told her we are all sick of political correct this. she said oh no dinesh this is about historical correctness. i thought oh apple and that was an interesting response. i do agree with you about all of us being together. diego said something interesting that he felt tucson is a traumatized spot bottom we have this dangerous border region, the most dangerous in the country. people are still reeling. there's a lot of trauma here and i think some of the passive but he said the panel sees nationwide, we are pretty

traumatized nationally too and i think it's getting harder and harder to process what things to get up in arms over. i think the issue that hits us all back home is that this is about us. it's about you and me. they may come after these guys right now but then what? what is later? that's the thing that always haunts me. i have fond joshing to usd and i thank them for upping my book sales. thanks a lot but you know it's a tough issue. i just want to say perhaps on a note of hope here but don't you think that telling young people know makes that thing? [laughter] and especially around literature when you look at wittman for example, it's his day -- in his day he was lacerated for who he was.

santino said something great to the students this morning. yeah we are in a landmine. go ahead and step on the mind. let the worst happen, blowup and you will find out you are still together after blew up. that's interestiinteresti ng to me and he in fact told the students, be radical. he said take the shrapnel in go and go ahead with it. so talk to me before we to go to questions and answers. talk to me about what is the hope? is easy to be jeremiah, right or elijah. there is fire raining down on all of our heads. whoa to assault which is how we feel. is the hope in the power being denied and the unity of these people? look at who is here. it's the very fact that these

words are a little sexier for now for being good night. i always look in the back of of the bottom shelf in my mom's library. where i knew where this stuff was. you know what i'm talking about. [laughter] so what is the hope here? >> i think that the hope for these kids is like you said even told no, you can't read this. like you said it gives it a taboo kind of quality that will draw them even more to it. for a kid what you tell a kid no they want to gravitate towards it. that includes literature so we are talking about discussing how people are kind of afraid. not just here but coast-to-coast to stick your neck out and make a stand and say this is wrong.

especially if you are a bigger organization and you have some clout. as you are afraid of what's going to happen. you are afraid of the consequences. ilec to tell people that you know i'm a worst-case scenario kind of guy. i always ask myself, what is the worst that can happen in? what's the worst thing you can do to me and the students they say you know if they are speaking out and if they are resisting and rebelling if they are reading books, what is the worst they can do to them? like luis said, if the shrapnel comes off of a landmine you will find you are still there and you will be stronger from experience. i hope to inspire not only you but kids from the next generation of kids to take action and to not take no for an answer and to not just take the authority of the school board or a politician or of a hateful person into question that authority and to act on their own.

this book i created and brought all these people together. i am an independent publisher. i don't come from paying one or random house. i don't have that kind of the bankroll behind me. this was all back like the old-school. i did it myself. i was able to go from an idea to being here with you. these kids can do that too. these kids can form their own study groups. these kids can form their own poetry readings in these kids can form their own chat books and go out on the street and appeal to the power of the local libraries. people really need to come together in their communities and lose their library -- use their libraries. libraries are powerful places. [applause] they don't get a lot of positive press anymore. hear about people closing libraries and cutting funding and the hours. that is awful.

people need to support their public and community libraries because that is where the power is. that is where the books are. these kids can be just as powerful as any politician or school board but they have to stand up. they have to stand on the landmine and take some of that shrapnel and we have to stand with them so they can do that and we can do it together. >> i completely agree. when i think about hope, sometimes it's hard to have hope and you know when you are hearing about things like this coming up like the book ban and the attack on chacon has, i think back to proposition 187 when that was passed in california and 95, 94 and i think about right now there's a spike in new mexico to evoke drivers licenses from undocumented people.

it's all playing politics. it's hard to have hope but then this will comes together and this panel is come together in the students have come together. it feels a little bit better. it feels like okay i still have this and i feel like i'm going to be doing this forever and that's okay. so i think the hope is that we continue to do this together because we will be fighting like this for a really long time. i'm okay with that. if you are. [applause] >> i have hope. one of the things that i noticed is that artists are in the forefront and in the trenches of revolution and of change. we are always right there in the trenches and what is coming next. if you look at history artists

are the emotional historians of the world and the books that are banned in the books that are being written we are laying the groundwork for tremendous change in tremendous inclusion and this revolution that's coming. it's not bad stuff but really good stuff. everyone of you matter some matter what you look like you no matter where you are from. you matter and you exist and you count. i am excited to be a part of it even though it is scary at times. sometimes you have to go through this scary stuff to get to the good part so i have a lot of hope. i'm kind of excited to be a part of it. >> at first santino said a shout-out to all the librarians out there. you are the best people in the world by far. [applause] repositories of knowledge and severely underpaid and underappreciated at the very least. i am a cynic by nature because i'm a reporter.

i know the depravities of mankind and everything horrible that they do but i'm also a student of history and i see what happens -- for lack of better term when idiots try to oppress the idiots always lose. this was actually the best thing that could've happened to checkd mexican-american studies that you could've ever imagined. think of it this way. if they hadn't allowed it to continue as it had, maybe the system might be passed on in other districts in arizona. that's an arizona phenomenon and nothing really happens however they come and and they immediately all across the country people's dirt getting galvanized. youth is like what are these books we are not supposed to read? authors together, let's have panels and social meeting and use the social media. a friend of ours from houston

runs a show. he started a movement. he is trafficking in books so he got on a caravan and traveled around the southwest creating underground libraries of these banned books going to community centers or library saying here's a bunch of donated books. don't tell the feds would hear of these books, pass them on. he got a shout-out on "the new york times" opinion page. that is how powerful the ideas so and tucson you guys are the ground soldiers. know that you have her dying support. you have to take the bones and bruises but think of it this way. so many people in our american passes have two take bumps and bruises so all of us together could enjoy the fruits of what ended up happening. you can never suppress an idea and never suppress a great idea. >> yeah. [applause]

this is why the stoffo gets the big bucks. my last comment on hope is direct good to you beautiful young folks. we told these guys this morning you are not alone. we are all on twitter and facebook. you can write to us anytime night or day and we will answer you but i want to tell you here's the thing on my part. this is the united states of america. young, vote. you vote. [applause] so we are reserving the last part of this event for questions or conversations if you want to talk to us. there are microphonmicrophon s on either side so if you would be so kind if you want to address any of us step up to the mic so c-span can get your audio and let's chat. i would love to hear what you might have to say.

if anyone of us can answer whatever you would like to ask, don't be shy. >> while people are coming up we should give out our twitter handle. >> my twitter handle is @ gustavo arellano, now underscore. >> i am @ lizz huerta, all one word. >> i am @. [inaudible] >> i am @ s.j. rivera. and i share with my wife. we are both there together. >> you started out by asking the question of what is the matter with american media and they weren't covering what was going on. but i think there are two sides

to that. one of them is the big yawn. but as people in america don't want to hear about it. it's not the story they want to hear. they want to hear good news. they want to hear something that resonates with the consumers cultures that they are focused on and the celebrities and the light stuff. they don't want to hear bad things about america. and part of that too is well that is just for mexicans and a lot of people grow up without mexicans or hispanic people of various kinds around. but in the end, i think there is also a subversive element to how this all works and that is that because the media is so

dependent on the money that comes from marketing, and the people who are marketing don't want to hear about it because it's not the message. they want the easy message and they want the broad coverage and they want to get their stuff sold. >> they do want to talk about it is they want to scare everybody that we are flooding the borders and we are bringing crime and disease to a neighborhood near you. they want to freak out the red or the blue side depending on where you fall that there's this huge queasy voting bloc and the need to get these votes. they do want to talk about this but what they don't want to talk about is any of our contributions to this country including our history, our literature, our art and pretty much our culture. the media loves to take from our culture but they don't like the

credit so i understand what you are saying. people want to keep their head in the sand. one of the points i like to make about this is that yeah today it's chicano studies but maybe tomorrow will be african-american studies in maybe 20 years in the future somebody somewhere will say do you know what? irish history is dangerous and italians, we don't want to talk about the timing contributions to this country. that happened already. it i'd happen again. see what happened in the past is happening right now and god bless america but one of the worst things we have his amnesia of the mind which i think -- i'm sorry. >> i love what you said about the subversive because let's face it the guys who started breaking the story, stephen colbert and jon stewart. yes maam? >> when i first encountered

anything about the mexican-american studies program it was through the documentary precious knowledge and i came away feeling good about tucson. i'm so glad this is happening in my community, that the schools are taking at that. i am a historian by the way so i'm glad to see that history part of it being taken up in that there is a cultural aspect. i'm so glad it was subversive and i came away feeling good. about a week later they came down on mexican-american studies and for all of the organizing that was happening and the community trying to get behind it, there was nothing we could do and it made me feel terrible about tucson and it made me feel like there was a tucson i didn't know and that i didn't like and i didn't want to be a part of.

and then another good thing happened. occupy tucson took up banned books and started distributing them. and i thought you now this is a way that we have come together in terms of how do we choose our issues and i now occupy is all over the place. to do a small thing like say okay here they are seems to be a very helpful thing that could be done in the community. >> thank you. you know one one of the things emit a crazy about this is the focus put on tucson. this is kind if a phoenix obsession. you guys didn't do it. [laughter] you guys didn't do it. there is a big not only on the children but on tucson arizona and that really hurts for.

frankly i just don't think it's fair. there are bullies pushing us around and you all have got the wrong pr people because everybody has loved tucson into this. and it's just not right because it's just not right. and you know again historical correctness. but we always break it down to an easier denominator. arizona or tucson. tucson is banned the book yet i said i can't wait to get to tucson. i've wrote on my facebook go to tucson. good look, be careful. it's tucson, we talking about? that's unfair and so many levels that it just drives me crazy. what can you do? i don't know. i really don't know. tuscon book festival is one of the things you can do and you are doing.

it moved me profoundly that bill winer understood this so much that he sent -- said a place aside for us and they would put in seats for the students. that's tucson. that is tucson. [applause] >> i have been driving all night >> god bless you. >> it was 33 below for a whole week. anyway, what was i going to say? i have come here to support and thank you c-span. if you guys think you are the only ones talk into the camera i'm over there watching you. we appreciate what you guys do and mr. costa, you guys don't

realize that it's all over the world. i support issues in australia so we are all in this together and we are here about justice. i wrote a little book called more than an american because what we are, we are the first human beings. i'm an american this and i'm an american that but in the end we breathe the same way and we are human beings. the reason i say that is because i do a lot of my work at the united states university and there were two students doing a book report or some report on immigration. they were like, why do we have to do this? this is what they said. they said we should kill them all. i looked at these young people and i said are you kidding?

and that is why i'm in this thing. i graduated from phoenix union high school. some of you they remember that. anyway, so i do that and wear t-shirts and anything that can support our students because just like when they say something about the immigrants or to legalize them. the first thing i hear is they have to go to the back of the line, which there isn't. one of them is to learn english. yes, i think they should but should not be forced to. language is something that you cherish. your wife, your kids and you dream. your wisdom has hispaniola or

whatever but once people start fooling with your language they start fooling with your dreams. they can't do that. people have got to realize that we have done it already. a lot of us went to the high schools in the schools but we were punished for speaking spanish. we are to have that and we don't want another one. so focus a little bit on that and i love kids. we are behind you guys. i don't know you but we are back there all around the world. anyway, thank you for coming and being with us and all the work that curtis does. [applause] thank you. >> thank you. [applause]

>> my name is mike. my first comment is in support and my second one is a point of being contrary because i think it's good for all of us to continually stir the pot often and stir the pot deeply. i agree that banning chicano studies in the usa is a form of ethnic cleansing because if you start banning the histories and the stories of the chicanos, you don't stop there. then you begin to ban other ethnic stories. when you eliminate ethnic histories, that is a form of historical and cultural genocide

i support everything you have sat at the table. might point of being contrary, i think that chicano literature will probably follow or should follow history. several comments came from from the table and one was i am a student of history with reference to historical correctness. and here is my point as a person of color. as a human being, as a human rights activist. how do you or have you, how do you reconcile the myth and entirely ignore indigenous people in this country? i'm not saying all of them. but genesis comes from the black mountain.

so how can chacon of studies entirely ignore that? because if you claim this as a land of -- it's another form of cultural materialism. [applause] and i say that respectfully to my chicano brothers and sisters. >> at all mean to interrupt you but i think you have different chicano studies across the country that have different kinds of curriculums and many of my brothers and sisters are very welcoming and inclusive of our indigenous roots. so i mean some people like to preach about it and i know a lot of the time you have indigenous tribes that are at odds with chicano studies students. but like you said we are all part of the same tribe. chicanos come from indigenous tribes.

that is part of our history to match. in kitchen is history included as far as my knowledge in my reading goes, we are one. like you said we come from that land and the borders are drawn across our land and are mere lines in the sand. our tribes all come from the same place and are people all walk the same continent. chicano studies to me is inclusive of our indigenous roots and our indigenous history and if you look at some of the programs across the country, maybe not just here but it's a very big part of it. i am sorry that you might feel that we are at odds on that brother but we are not. you and i are one, okay? we are all from the same place and we all have the same roots when it comes to that. to me and i think to the rest of the panel, chicano studies is very inclusive and proud of our indigenous roots and it's a big

part of the chacon a movement. >> thank you. [applause] >> and just along the lines remember that when mexican-american studies were taken down all of the studies were taken as well. so unfortunately we are to hated by a larger clock and our time has run out. i'm so thankful to you for this time together and i hope if we see each other that we can continue talking. [applause] >> buy the book. by "ban this!," bicep four. a mix a great christmas present. >> thank you for coming. ..

>> good morning. stacey chef was say wonderful biographer, of cleopatra -- can you hear? in one role she says you're moving forward in ignorance in the of your moving backward with something resembling cognitions but what she doesn't say is with

the illusion, the biographer has a lot of attitude. one can be worshipful, a geographic pious were these the bunker or macgregor one can defend, and defame, exposed, sensational ize, sentimentalized, one could be a myth buster or breaker not many can cover the whole spectrum but it was done with an early book called. [speaking french] and he says what intellect restores to us under the

name of the past is not the past. and as each hour of one's life has died, it embodies itself of one material object in remains captive forever unless we happen on the object recognizing what lies from within and set it free. it is embodied their in our and enter a material object why it is hard to clean out the attic. it is your life peace peace also to connect things you have to use see it. that riding could restore something anti-act of

recovery tuberose biography and fiction and the other thing in common root in parallel lives we are desperate for information how the people lived because we want to know how to live ourselves. that is true of biography but also fiction in just one simple example from a chapter called for a billion right before the grand inquisitor. the oldest brother is giving his views on the christian idea there is the all-powerful and all the way in benevolent god and things will ultimately work out for

the best and he makes his argument to stories. in those days there was the general of aristocratic connections, the owner of great estates so our general settled on his property and domino ears over the neighbors and kennels and those of mounted in uniform, i'm sorry to put us through this on a beautiful sunday morning in key west. [laughter] i really m. [laughter] one day of the '08 through a stone at the general's favorite home. why is my favorite dog lay in? he is told the boy through

still there hurt his pop. the general looked at the child he was taken from his mother and kept shut up all night and then the general kim note with the hounds on horseback his dependents all mounted around him and in front of them will lose the mother of the child. he is brought to from lockup. it is the gloomy day. the general orders the child to be under arrest and stripped naked and he shivers in does not dare to cry. make him run. brian. the boy runs. in since the whole pack of hounds on the child.

they catch him and tear him to pieces before his mother's eyes. times are a. [laughter] i did those on to explain there maybe the all-powerful benevolent god and that is that is achieved through human suffering but if so connivances he will reject any harmonious conclusion that required the suffering of that a year-old. he doesn't say there is no guide but his plan for us involves such horrors and he has backed a ticket to. i was 80 when i first read this in my young brother just died this being diagnosed with acute leukemia.

this fictional encounter had more influence on my life then all condolences and family support in the world loved reading the brothers then looked for help and everything i read in an accurate and add the attitude to paying bills he throws them in a drawer and sits down to pay them three times per year. i learned the telephone company did not appreciate this point* of view. [laughter] but with there without the bill paying and it was more vivid than mine and the lives of my friends and seemed as real as in the character and so it was book after book life will love

was sailing relearned from the catcher in the right and there was poetry and i had more than one teacher of the four quartet and we learned attitude from the greek anthology. we wanted to come laughing and i wrote -- like the epitaph of a greek sailor translation tomorrow the wind will fall tomorrow i will be safe harbor the stranger this is the nemesis to buy back the town of tomorrow.

a marvel that the ability to be a billiard ball rolling across the table and 304 lives the had the emotional range of a shakespeare sonnet. we knew we would be saved by literature. as jules put it best he said history and he meant to include biography and fiction, history is not a narrative, not analysis, but resurrection. in this is what they mean by recovery plan will not try to get into that this morning but bringing your subject back to life is a

great and worthy goal. to ezra pound and excellent device, we might want to add, and make it live again. thank you. [applause] we are running a little early so we can do questions. >> hq depreciation for you. thank you very much. [applause]

>> a question of what to ask next week but the first semi site was in boston, the 200th birthday of ralph waldo emerson of whom you have written a marvelous book. but a gathering of scholars and critics and writers and the whole thing appreciating emerson from a variety of angles. you stood up and said just for the record you wanted it known ufo analyze or do chemical tests you said i

read him as a local waldo and when he says trust myself you can run it through any number of tests tests, but he tells me to trust myself and follow the old might from within. it seems that cuts through what we have been hearing about that when all else fails and is in extreme remedy but it is possible. [laughter] they do talk to you.

>> this is the most moving i have heard. with all the books of will read them again but to have any of their suggestions of books we should read? >> have you have not read them all again read the books of my wife american childhood. [applause] >> in 2006 there was a reporter in miami at first

seemed initially done solace announce the case we're here to declare a ground war of the miami beach office and then i realized early on it was clear that the informant was posing as the operative that was the only connection to terrorism at all. but i put that in my back pocket and i realize the have a similar pattern they were involved in these fantastic plots but they never have the means with

the ability to acquire weapons or those posing as the al qaeda operatives. around 2010 i said how we figure out how many have existed since an 11 involving real terrorist with the imminent danger in those have no capacity and to provide with the means so there are three journalists to pursue that took a look at all terrorism cases that came since then 11 in how many had no capacity for terrorism on their own and

what we found is more than 500 prosecutors since maybe only one -- prosecutions but either the informant played a part where he provided the means and the opportunity. the underlying part of his regency these men who don't have capacity on their own but others who are dangerous terrorist you can count him when he and the number of people who pose a serious threat just like the liberty city's seven weeks the case go into trial right now but the fbi provided them with

the means they needed to go from the fringe to a terrorist overnight. >> this duryea's you tell are astonishing. >> many pieces are complicated that was a situation like this we don't know exactly why the fbi targeted him but and it's time recently converted to islam and working in a video game store with no place to live. it is just before ramadan and then he says come live

with me i have a car and you can eat my food and is this the work of god? sure. so overcome a few months they talk about is long and to get involved and to take action but then says i wanted to smoke good judge in then he says about a shopping mall? he said yes then they get excited and at that point* the fbi was in place but derrick did not have any money. they needed him to acquire weapons. i know an arms dealer that can sell you grenades and

just say take them. so there it goes to the us shopping mall of course, it is the undercover agent who hand them over the in a charge of conspiracy and he is serving 25 years in prison. he was not the danger to other people as a terrorist but he did say it wasn't for you and probably would stab somebody with a steak knife. through this allow resting operation they should go to the public to say here it is

another terrorist caught and plot flailed. >> you are a journalist in not a historian to talk in find out what they're thinking in the process to get a sense why the fbi rationale is from the bureau point* of view. >> there are those who are critical but there is general support of the program and al qaeda as it existed they do not send them overseas to have their horrific crime that they are more conservative fellow wolf. those other disaffected or

disillusioned of those who want to watch the al qaeda video that will inspire them. but then the al qaeda move to the franchise model with the idea and carry out the attack so the fbi looks for people or on the spectrum on one side is operational so they want to find someone who is on the sympathizers' side to catch him before he becomes a terrorist so for those who have an act of violence and the arrest them to the romanians pseudo lot

with conspiracy of obstruction but they identify them firsthand is easy to be sympathetic to the view if you are the case agent and say i want to bomb the subway system you want to give the guy who says ignore him then six months later he does. that is why they would pursue the case but there is yet to have an example on their own to be capable of terrorism with no weapons who actually said here is a balm. the only people providing the cast -- capacity is the fbi where in the movies it is glamorized with the empty briefcase and they hand over

money and it is empty and the russian. it works because of there not a minor selling drugs with the fbi they could do it somewhere else. but what about a large bomb and there is yet to be the case the sympathizer crosses over as operator and someone has the means. that hasn't happened. >> we have allowed a human rights nightmare to occur on our watch. in the years since dr. king's death a vast system of social control has emerged from the ashes of slavery and jim crow. a system of mass incarceration and has no

doubt dr. king turning in his grave today. the mass of four peoples incarceration is tantamount to a new caste system shuttle's people from decrepit under funded schools to high-tech prisons a system that blocks poor people overwhelmingly poor people of color into a permanent second-class status nearly as effectively as the earlier system of social control once did. in my view the moral equivalent of jim-crow. >> get ready.

hispanic this is of paul and i first heard in turkey turkey, , , whoever you are, wondered or worshiper ours is not a caravan of despair, even if you have broken your vows 1,000 times , come yet again, tom. it is meaningful to me because whenever a look at the statue of liberty a beautiful woman of welcoming the inscription is premier tired and pour huddled masses yearning to break free the notion of america the radical opening bring your traditions and plant them in the american soil winning them grow to those other open to others so that spirit to it at the heart of the american tradition is at

the heart of as long as well and nobody articulates that better. so i need to confess i get emotional when i talk with people about the issues we will be addressing tonight especially interfaith relations and also the idea of america. right after 9/11 a lot of us gathered at a mosque here and i heard a sentence that changed my life. to be religious and the 21st century is to be entered religious. it is that dedication that draws me. i will apologize only once

for being emotional if i get choked up you will chalk it up to that but one of the great moments in his book is his telling of the genesis moment of the book. >> if this is actually ramadan 2010, august of that year i wake up of 4:00 a.m. i have my last meal before minute prayers that began fasting and then as muslims to they read the additional time of centering and meditation and muslims believe god's listen extra closely at the pre-dawn hours but august 2010 is a crazy discourse of the ground zero mosque program are reading that drawn or roomy but the right-wing hate to website to end is a

pate the storyline of the day because every day there are new tax there is new word of command center, etc., etc. these people who bespoke of the institution supported by the muslim community as a service and cordova house was the first of their vision. >> we're back live from the university of arizona at this this annual tucson festival of the books. brandon webb and howard wasdin discuss their experience as navy seals. >> [inaudible conversations] >> welcome to the fifth fiddle tucson festival of

books we would like to think the city for sponsoring this venue and the presentation will last one hour including questions and answers at the end of the session the author's autograph the books and are available for purchase please to not herself loans. howard wasdin raised in georgia aborted 61 and is listed with the navy where he served as a search and rescue swimmer and reenlisted to get the necessary steps to become a navy seal then was selected to join the work for -- that was signed up with the seal team six with special operations command. following honorable

discharge and with that doctor of chiropractic degree branded web in 1974 was raised mostly california enjoined and 80 to 93 and was from the search and rescue swimmer and completed training in this kind of seal team three and served combat deployments to southeast asia and served as the sniper corps manager to develop curricula and training snipers. the editor-in-chief and the media commentator on special operations officers. and co-author of the 21st

century sniper. please give them a round of applause. [applause] no like to turn the time over to howard wasdin for presentation. >> but afternoon. can you hear me? i want to have a cross-section there's a lot of myths about the seals and the people we are and what planet we come from. i went to give you a cross-section and what it means to be raised in our country. but anybody who's ever served in military please stand up. give them a round of

applause. [applause] thank you for your service. navy seals is a hot topic issue right now but the guys that uc stand apart just as important. have a mission to fulfill and without them nothing can happen. of the land of america and there's something happening are has happened we have got away from not only living the country but loving each other. but it might surprise you. they killed osama bin on and then my but came now. [laughter] before anybody asks me no. it was not a conspiracy.

[laughter] it was just bad timing and the second book seal team six warrior. i am more proud of this book than anything i have done in a life. this is for the kids do don't like to read. with the battle of mogadishu seal team six book came out last summer and you are the first to see it the easy day for the dead is out in october before that i had military success. because they ought to do a raise.

but that will give you a cup of coffee -- coffee icy then maybe marksmanship letter -- metal with a purple heart. then is what the military does for you. this is how wide drop -- grew up if i was born and raised to a 15 year-old mother of a mile most died because the surfactant had not developed completely in my lungs. then i was adopted and move to a small town in georgia and abuse to daily. we with the built regular then i decided to run away from home. i got that some people's house in this and i'm here to live. i was desperate but if i

would talk about to say and i would be on a social program because i had a tough life, as somebody help me i could turn out like jeffrey dahmer with that background but this is the house i grew up in. this is a good pitcher. back then it had a sag in the middle and there were three windows because i was the adopted bastard child so there was no heat in my room. you would see dared below my room so i have a hard time with these kids using they have so hard. have it taken away but i

went from rock star to rock-bottom i felt sorry for myself you have seen black belt down the only bad day i had in a shot three times. i went from tactical god i got to a point* i thought i was more did him in. i was not bragging but it was a wake-up call. guide has a way to get your intention and i had to suck up three ak-47 bullets. but my thought process was i cannot believe this happens to me. not to to me. this happens to other people. you could see them coming. we're out of ammunition people talk about the white light to and floating out of their body did everything in

slow motion. i dunno if that meant i was going to hell. [laughter] but i did not see it. one regret i had was i did not tell the people in my life i love them enough. you are a weak man to ask for help and i found out that is not true you have to be a real man to tell the people you love them so i made got a promise. if you get manifests that will make sure to tell the people i love. when they came back from somalia i was in a dark place with daughter and i did not have a relationship for about four years i was wounded and divorced and

that she can tell you know, and never give up on a missed opportunity to tell the people i love them so if i die tomorrow i know i was given a second chance to fulfill that. but today we are the best nation in the world to take people and turn them into soldiers. the worst nation into taking soldiers reese assimilate into society sometimes my sir will crash we have to set up a new web site and thank god they're asking for help because we have made it okay. is of bad assets i need help them must be okay. we live in the best country in and makes me so mad when

people today say if we had it like this country or like best do realize everything we have is god-given. no one person deserved to be born into america by the grace of god we were born into the greatest country in the world. you can clap about that. [applause] in america where to the point* we are willing to exist and let uncle sam help us out and be responsible for our well-being and he was done with me i was a new george wheelchair in georgia and contemplating shooting my head off that i was not an asset. i am not now what do i do with this skill set and in the meantime had to make a

living to feed my family? we need to find a way to get our soldiers back into society. a speech to schools and colleges but we're missing a handoff who is responsible for our children. every school but teachers will tell me it's not the kids, it's the parents. if i got a paddling at school i hated to go home. it was double jeopardy at home. but now if you get onto somebody's kid it is your fault so mom and dad say i know my kid did not do anything wrong but that is dangerous. i came home one day and my stepdaughter is in her room on her cellphone and i hear

a noise in the driveway. heavy seen the car was around tailpipe look to the people who drive those he starts to walk across the driveway pulling up his pants with a piercing in his lip and in his nose and hardware i am carrying out the garbage i know if i am more appalled what he is in his face but he will walk right past me to my door. i got his attention and said where do thank you were going? i am here to get aaron. okay. you get back in that car put on a belt see knuckling appear pants and get the hardware out of your face and next time talk to me and say i like to speak to your

daughter then i might like you to. so i go in the house and i am the evil person for good you are being very judgmental. you're judging someone based on how they look. if it walks like a duck and looks like a duck and? like a duck she told me she hated me and i needed to grow up and quit judging people and two weeks later after a friend was dating sister she hugged my neck and said you were protecting me. ever that if it looks like a duck and? like a duck it is probably a duck. there are two primary choices in life and with conditions as they are to except the responsibility to change them. i could stay in that wheelchair or jim beam

bottle but i realized i've got to change my life. when you are in the dark space the light does not move you move so get back to. is this is a country those are not was blessed you know, the boy who stepped on the land mine to the right thing even when no one is watching for use dying from infection, be bandaged him up and as bad as we have it in the united states will fight for our lives every single day with land mines in the playgrounds with our pcs shot at us we're the most blessed nation in the world. here's what we're missing is loving each other. a friend is on stage with me and i can tell you two

things that a navy seal has never asked for was somebodies, there was, religion, sex, a gay or straight, all those things that divide us as the country if they are americans, i guess what i will help you or die trying. level not reached to anybody but reid john 1513 that is roughly translated says who love has no man he lays down his life for a friend that this small percentage of people were willing to do that over and over, more than i ever did. we have to appreciate those people. they do of for love, not the badge, not so the checks think your cool but because

we love the fellow americans. i will tell you one more story than i will step down. this is how far i have seen us live as a nation. in savannah georgia and a red light a man is lying in the road it is raining torrential i see him struggling trying to set up i said as soon as it turned devil get over there. i saw these two young men stop beside him and go over and i thought thank god somebody will help them if it was a dogged buddy would stop. one stops and snaps a pitcher and does the little sign and snaps a picture

that may have then a crackhead for alcoholic i picked him up and put my arm and today's his arm and said playwright played forward in he couldn't do it. he was in a the rain it is a prosthetic. he could not get up because of the prosthetic leg. i put him on my shoulder to sit him down he was a combat veteran from vietnam's in the leg was blown off and came back home climbed into the bottle and never got out i could have been a man and i don't know if i would be

able to climb out of the wheelchair or the bottle to get my life back on track. the next time you see somebody of there you know, where he came from you don't know what is going on and the mother raising'' we're missing we have to get back to loving each other and the one to tell everybody i know you did not come to hear a tough navy seal guide to tell you that is the most important thing i love you as americans dead human beings. thank you for coming. [applause] >> some of the things what the e to tell you that is the most important thing i love you as americans dead human beings. thank you for coming. [applause] >> some of the things what the audience wanted to hear

is how were topped but you had a difficult time in your childhood wasn't easy away the rest of us have it added that prepare you who you are today? lamb a little more chipper coming back from africa it is like the nasty flu. [laughter] howard and i one thing i have noticed is be, from these crazy backgrounds but to deal with adversity adversi3

to deal with adversity will had a little different upbringing but when hippies are trying to figure out i had worked on those there was the scuba diving ago i had worked on my parents moved my sister and i on it and then may take a trip around the world and i made it to me to keep the intimate as survey off the bow. i left xvi in the south pacific and found my way back and put myself through school and joined the navy which is a lake aviation

warfare but i did a couple years as a rescue swimmer but i joined to me us deal. that is another story. also learning how to deal with adversity and understandings that they let me loose and in life that everyone gets to be on the podium or a trophy but it is important if you do get down you do get up and learn and keep on. that is what prepared myself for seal training. >> one of the things in your book said you were in the

middle of basic underwater demolition and training and3 demolition and training and he said halfway through training i visualized myself wearing the trident i thought i am going home in the coffin over the tried and i will make it through training. >> that is the epiphany every trainee gets to or have is your be down mentally, physically, psycho logically, a cold all the time, you don't want to quit you make it through hell week but there is a doubt some day will trivia up but you just don't know. but the point* like that too is that even if i make it through training not because

i quit or not make it but i will physically died doing it. you flip the switch even in their personal life but i will succeed or put me in a body bag is powerful motivation. at that point* you can accomplish a thing. so i have a picture of myself going back home i had the trident and i made it and nothing will stop me now. that is the apartment to get through something special you have to visualize and then convince yourself that will happen. >> share your experience in the middle of how we can

your instructors told you over and kicked sand in-your-face in what is your experience because they were begging you to? >> they have a saying in sealed training you don't want to be quote-unquote that guy and but of 220 students a i was that guy for the first five weeks. it was brutal. [laughter] i showed up with the regular navy fleets and was mentally prepared but physically with the calisthenics not the level it should be and it was bad i was on every extra duty, a physical training sign up, i would show up early to do physical training. they really had the meanest

instructors there is usually a group that gravity to that phase of training because it is the most brutal. they separated me and had me on the beach and hour before and tear everything they could but at that point* quite figured our early on it was more mental than physical eyes sought athletes that did not have much diversity of life and they were gifted with collegiate scholarships and they would quit because they did not like the cold water or to feel that. but once they realized they could not break me i turned the corner i remember hell

week they keep you up five and a half days straight needed the 20-mile paddle around san diego our crew finished first and the instructor jump in the boat and yelling at other people and one said if you dump your boat right now we will secure you earlier and i said let's do a. that is our was at that point* i will fluxes over right now and they knew it. then they left me alone. >> check out his book. it is more colorful.

[laughter] i cannot let my son read yet [laughter] >> i read it three times. [laughter] >> tell us about the competitiveness of the seals on getting through training and how that creates the camaraderie when you go out to the team. >> that's tough. imagine an alpha male exponentially to the tenth power than those to graduate from buds then using your the most gifted warrior sometimes to a fault, as a admitted. but it is like the football team winning the super bowl. like to have the same mission in but trying to win

the game, and medics, communication, it is a beautiful thing to see. like a professional football team that dominated then you come back and the highest of highs but if it doesn't end well of late united states government lee man up and take responsibility called lessons learned if you do that again you don't make the same mistakes again. they are broadcasting this in the belt way of d.c. [laughter] that's what we have to do with their own personal lives. . .