>> i think that's true, but you're an exception because you wrote a bestseller. the shelf life of a book, i'm sure that cheryl would confirm this, is a mart of weeks or days -- is a matter of weeks or days. and most books don't make it into bookstores. we're living in a different world. ..

>> 700,000 books were self-published, twice as many books are produced by independent authors who put them online and have something to say. now, you might claim there's a lot of garbage among that 700,000 books but i think there's a lot of good stuff as well. so i really feel that if you look at the publishing industry i don't know if you would agree, we are witnessing a transformation in its structure so some of the middle, intermediates are moving out. and some of the public is moving in in strange ways. it used to be said that the books are written for the general reader. now they are written by the generator. >> you can watch this and other programs online at booktv.org. >> in their book, "whitey," dick lehr and gerard o'neill recount

the life of boston gangster turned fbi informant james "whitey" bulger. the authors spoke at porter square books in cambridge, massachusetts, for just over 45 minutes. >> thanks for that introduction, and thanks for coming out tonight. what jerry and i have and might is i'm going to talk a little bit about the book, including reading a short excerpt from it. and then jerry is going to talk a little bit about our long history with this story. and where i want to start is to remind everyone about the significance of this story. whitey bulger is a big one, a big topic, but the distinguishing thing about whitey, and i think what makes him at this point historic crime figure in terms of crime figures and where they rank in 20th

century america, i mean, he's got the body count to match other crime bosses and charged with 19 murders and is probably many more. he's got the longevity. he's been around a long time, and he certainly has made millions. but the distinguishing feature i think, and we have found with whitey bulger, the thing that sets him apart from any other crime boss that becomes a nice -- a household name, some of the mafia dons or who they might be, is that whitey bulger brought the fbi, the nation's top law enforcement to its knees, he harnessed the power of the fbi on his behalf. and that's what gave him his rise to power and his longevity. and no one else in this underworld can have that claim to fame, so to speak. that's his historic marker that we all should never forget,

because he compromised the fbi for so many years. it's a subject, a topic which we went deep on in black mask. in fact, for 20 years in which whitey had his so-called unholy alliance with the fbi, we now refer to as the black mask years. we have taken those years and a new book, "whitey," we have put them in the larger context, the full arc of his long life. and getting into the project we actually, as the research for the past year or so got underway, we were astonished by how much new material, new information we were able to uncover and work with in trying to put together the long life of whitey bulger, taking a look at the making of the monster, the how and why of whitey. these are all things that when you read "whitey," you are going to be reading about, whether it's tracing the family, the

history of the films back to ireland for the first time has never been done before. whether it's having the benefit of his prison file when he was away for nine years in various federal prisons, including alcatraz. 600 pages of previously unexamined material. when you read "whitey" you will be reading the letters that build bulger wrote to prison officials about his brother trying to improve his brothers like you read letters from whitey bulger, father robert, again, something we never knew before. you're going to find out about prison reports attract his evolution to the prison system. that begin an atlanta and ended in lewisburg, in pennsylvania. it's remarkable stuff, and one of the things, we have been with this story and close to a for a long time but it was eye-opening, when you're looking at whitey bulger's long life, doors open to all kinds of other

worlds. it might be the '30s and '40s in boston and the study of juvenile delinquency. it could be the science and the study of the criminal mind and psychopaths. we went there. it could be about the fbi and its history to the 20th century as it waged a national campaign against organized crime and created this top echelon informant program, which whitey so cleverly manipulated to his behalf but it could be about alcatraz, you know, the most famous prison. fascinating stuff that i don't know if anyone is money with the famous alcatraz inmate named frank morris, of escape from alcatraz thing and put all these things together and realizing while whitey in iraq address, he knew frank morris because they've both been atlanta previously. that while frank morris and two other inmates were using spoons to dig the secret tunnels. whitey, the smartest one of them

all probably, was using and working with his brother and house speaker john mccormack, one of the most powerful men in the country to go out the front door while the other guys are going of the total to never be seen again. so that's the kind of thing you can end up putting together when you have these new vast resources that we have. another door that opens up is the cia backed particularly back project that was underway through the late '50s into the early '60s. whitey played a role in the. that's the excerpt, the brief passage i want to read from because when whitey when we as a 26 year old to start serving a sentence for bank robbery in 1956, his first up was atlanta. it within a few months his first cell, headed cell -- share a cell with seven other enemies. one thing about whitey, he is a control freak. even at 26 he pretty much freaked out when he had seven

other inmates, veteran criminals that had to share a small space with and they were driving them nuts. within three months of his incarceration he checked himself into the psych ward at atlanta. and within a year or so he became involved, because that's what is going on, the so-called lst project. that's what i want to read a brief, briefly to you about. in july of 57, about a year in atlanta, he gotten a job at the prison hospital to that was his work assignment. that's where his work had become but it was a new job that gave whitey and a close look at the lst project. now nearly two years old, held on tuesdays and thursdays in the basement of the prison hospital. word about the project had already spread publicly beyond the walls of the prison. delay the journal-constitution had run a feature story about the experiment under the

headline drug fed prisoners aid studies, along with a photograph showing one of the doctors in eating and inmate fall into. the article began, 16 prisoners at atlanta penitentiary at helping medical researchers study mental diseases by voluntarily taking a potent drug that induces symptoms of schizophrenia. that was the idea of the lst project. i don't know, charticle back in time, and it was before my time but there was a public face to this lsd project. is going on in the prison, harvard and a couple of other facilities. doctors were trying to come up with a cure for schizophrenia and this new drug called lsd, seemed to make someone what they called instantly insane. so they would have volunteers take lsd, tripping their brains out, and then they would try and test various drugs on them to see if it could be that your are ready for schizophrenia induced

coming in, that lsd get. that was the idea behind it. it wasn't secret at all but it was a very public thing. it was written about and whitey bulger was one of a number of inmates who volunteered fo forw. the thing that came out much later that we always hurt a little bit about perhaps is that the cia had a secret role in the. where they were feeding these doctors in atlanta at emory who are involved in this, you know, other drugs to test. on the subject in addition to the lsd as part of their espionage, counterespionage chemical warfare interests. so that was a secret private side that didn't come out until years later. but it was a very public project at that time. so there's a big story in atlanta paper about it. the newspaper interviewed the lead doctor, of emory university and quoted from a colorful account of one inmate's lsd trip

tto the newspaper did not identify the inmate but whitey and the other prisoners easily could've recognized him as wingfield are dead, the newspaper that credit has lifted the description of the trip that he wrote for the atlanta which was the prison magazine, they covered in on prison magazine. the inmate publication. and other press coverage about this lsd project, a national magazine called man's magazine in an age that include such articles as ted williams, heal or hero? and virgins, would you marry one? ran on a cover story titled i went insane for science. and the author was a doctor writing anonymously about his experimental lsd trip and the article included mention of the working atlanta prison. whitey met with him and his associates just a few weeks after he started working in a hospital in july. he underwent a screening process overseen by lawrence brian, the prison psychologist admitted

whitey to the psych ward the previous october. inmates called him and that doctor. doctor brian interviewed whitey and administered psychometric tests which included a rorschach test designed to confirm a volunteer was normal your doctors involve any of the project when writing or talking about the inmates met normal in quotation marks. because none of them was that. the lead doctor was quoted inmate volunteers at all scored high in tests for psychopathic tendencies. they were not normal, he said. they were psychopaths. the point of the psychological screening then was to ensure the inmate was stable and could withstand the projects lsd and other drugs. except for character disorders, no psychiatric after mounties were present in these subjects, the doctor wrote in a journal article about the prison's lsd experiments. finally, to make it all seem legal, ethical, whitey sat down

on august 6, 1957, with 1 of the doctor's associates and signed on the dotted line. is a document of disclosure explain the benefits and risks that doctor pfeiffer had agreed specifically for this lsd project and the one page form bearing the signature of james j. bulger, a hitting in capital letters, contract between department of pharmacology, emory university, school of medicine and human volunteers at the u.s. penitentiary, atlanta, georgia. so that's the kind of thing were able to get our hands on ourselves was whitey's so-called contractor participate in the lsd project. to continue them one morning two months later, after eating a light breakfast in the dining hall, whitey was taken by a guard to the hospital, a building located on the west side of the prison compound

behind the dsl house where he'd been kept initially in the eight-man cell. with the prison population of more than 2600 the size of many small towns across america, the hospital is fully operational. it at 75 beds and for full-time doctors, assisted by a levin medical technicians. prisoners stacked other prisons from clerks to head operating as. in any given year, 250 major and seven and 50 minor surgical procedures were performed. whitey walked through the main door, the main floor, down into the basement toward death whether neuropsychiatric board was come or a large room secured with a steel door and steel bars was set aside for the lsd project. whitey was in of the tuesday group, of eight inmate volunteers checking in for 24 hours state. he walked into the plane still room with its eight beds and joined the others. by now widely knew the drill.

he had been part of the lsd project for more than a month. he sat on the bed. the doctors always encouraged subjects remain in bed for the duration. by 8:30 a.m., or about two hours after breakfast, whitey to the lsd dosage prepared for him, drinking it in a class of quinine flavored liquids. the truck was odorless and colorless then he waited. would this be what the doctors called a trivial dose meaning 25 micrograms, or something stronger? in his first month he had been given increasing with stronger doses of the psychedelic drug so he could, as when doctorow, become for the mud with the effects of the drug, both qualitatively and quantitative quantitatively. the first dosage was 25 micrograms, second, 50, and 75, and finally 100. whitey would know in about an hour after the simpsons began to

manifest it when lsd began working on his brain and causing havoc in the interaction between his nerve cells and the new transmitter serotonin. in the human body, serotonin system that acts as a kind of control tower for behavior, perceptions and movements. the first sign why he was on his way was the sensation that the lights were dimming and brightening, as if someone were playing with the power supply. in fact, the lights were constant but his pupils were dilated, changing in diameter and affecting his life perception. to help him pinned down the power of this trip, dr. pfeiffer ordered associates which then come by to ask a series of 20 questions. certain questions addressed, evidence from taking a low-dose, does the lightbody? d.phil. fatigue? at this address symptoms seen only with higher doses. dosages. are things moving around you? do you feel as if any dream? whitey would know the dose was

on the stronger side if, when he closed his eyes, he saw an array of geometric patterns accompanied by a kaleidoscope of colors. i don't know who in the room has been there, but that's what it's like. letting go could have come easily. whitey bulger had always felt no secure winning control. but prison change dollar. he lost nearly every measure of control. the eight-man cell being the ever one remind the public sitting on lsd meant losing even more. for someone who is a tremendous need for security to control, this could lead to a tremendous sense of anxiety. dr. john halpern, a psychiatrist in massachusetts commented later, about the combustible mix that whitey bulger and lsd. it was october 8, 1957, when whitey began this particular amount of the drug. the date was exactly one week after america began sending b-52

bombers loaded with nuclear weapons, airborne around the clock in case of a soviet attack. and it was only four days after the soviet union shocked america with its successful launch of the sputnik satellite. the focus of the world was on the cold war, and russia's ride into space. while whitey was lying in a bed in ward f bracing itself for a different kind of trip, featuring tangerine trees and marmalade skies. so hopefully that gives you a flavor of what the kind of stories that all that the material enables us, whether whether was his actual prison file, whether it was the prison inmate publication, secret cia files that have since become public and working all this vitriol and having documents about whitey, a calendar of the days and times when he participate as a member of the tuesday group, week in and week out going down there to drop

acid. so without i would like to turn it over briefly to jerry who will talk a little bit as i said about our history with the story you would like to open it up to the floor for questions because in the past we found that people have plenty to say and ask about when it comes to this story. thanks. [applause] >> thank you. i sort of have a historical context. i think what dick and i bring to this discussion is a unique, historical perspective. we came to this story early. we stayed late. it's a career undertaking, and it has a body of work that goes with it. the chronology is, it starts 25 years ago when, as investigative reporters from the globe we did a series of articles on the two

bulger brothers at the height of their power, and at the time we revealed why he was an fbi informant. the reverberations from that were strong and lasting, and they counted in the book that we're talking about tonight, "whitey." our next stop was 10 years after the revelation about the informant. we did black mask which dick talked about, which chronicles the fbi descent into total corruption. and were able to hand at some of the poverty of whitey bulger. that's going to become a movie, hopefully production starts in may. that's hollywood scheduling. but a lot of bits and starts from the movie in black mask. but i think we have some reason for optimism now.

at least medicaid director in barry levinson, quite accomplished. and, finally, here we are tonight, soup to nuts on whitey. third installment on this long story. dick sort of recap pretty much everything, but i would like to discuss the comprehensive in a full-blown biography. and it goes back tw to century. we traced them back to the roots, and newfoundland. and i had done some research on the immigration to boston from the famine in the mid-19th century, and i was surprised and fascinated to learn that the most durable and lasting immigration from ireland was from the harbor and southern islands -- ireland to st. john's newfoundland. soviet a lot of new information to bring to bear on that.

dick and i've been investigative reporters powerful cover. we asked a lot of people a lot of tough questions. so it's now our turn to turn the tables and fire away. we want questions about the writing, the research. [applause] >> in your research, did you find it remarkable that congressman -- long-term congressman joe was in office and came away with a clean slate? he must have known what was going on, in fact if not an enabler. i mean, they named bridges after him. were you surprised at how clean he -- >> he's a good friend of bulger. bill bulger gave his eulogy. as far as i know he stayed clean. i never thought anything that

implicated him or anything spent that is an interesting question. we didn't come in terms of his prison file, fingerprints and john mccormick's, were not there, remarkable. >> thank you. >> sounds like there's quite an education anybody could have with this book. i'm really looking forward to it. i haven't read the other either, and i stopped, brought up a little short with the beginning when you said how masterfully whitey had use the fbi to and i've heard a lot about how masterfully the fbi was able to exploit whitey bulger. and i wonder if you could just say something about that side of the relationship? >> that's news to me. [laughter] that the fbi exploited whitey

bulger. i mean, they gave him some information but he certainly was never taken on that spent it was an inbound. instead of the fbi, instead of taking advantage of whitey are getting some each benefit, i think if we zoomed in close to certain fbi agents who were in the fbi world, namely john connolly, who was whitey's, officially whitey's handler and is also at the center of the storm, center of the corruption. having whitey bulger getting in, to sign on as an informant, was a career maker for john connolly it was also from boston to his supervisor was a man named john morris, also again very much in the center of corruption, at the heart of this. for them, writing why he and whitey's partner, was also informed, starting in mid '70s on, until the late '80s,

again, where they were career maker's. so in that sense, they exploited it professionally. they kept him on even when they shoulshould've cut them loose ad gone after them. so individually, personally, professionally i think benefited a handful of people, but institutionally it turned out to be the worst informant scandal in history of the fbi spent an evening for the individuals, connolly is still in prison. john morris is a total disgrace. so even though they rolled the y for a while, they crashed at the end. >> to question. in your career, all the investigative reporting, and research, any fears for your life and death threats? >> not with him or i. know. outside, the only, the most

intimidating thing we encountered i think, speak for myself, the fbi tried to talk us out of the original story, 1980 about revealing bulger as an informant. and they said that he would have no compunction about killing us. so that gets your full attention. >> sure. kevin threatened how we i think publicly. i guess a few folks ran into a. >> it's hard to go back in time that in 1988 when come in that period, the idea of publishing -- i mean discovering and then publishing, why get the special relationship with the fbi. on, it was jaw-dropping and unthinkable. whitey was, reputation was not only as the ultimate standard gangster who demanded and required supreme loyalty. that was his reputation but he

also had this reputation of being the robin hood of the underworld, something charismatic about it and all that kind of thing. so we were, it is a long time to even wrap her head around it when we're getting close to confirming it. and now, it's a given, it's excepted. >> my big concern, and i shared with the other, the globe, was we could set off a gang more and the bodies dumped on the front steps of the goal. i don't think the publisher would've liked that much. and it was a daunting undertaking. really was the hardest call i ever had to make. >> the other question, cooper billy johnson had whitey in custody at logan airport and an order came down from someplace to release him. in your research, or in your opinion, where did that order, from?

>> well, that's always been the confusing thing to me because the allegation was that dave davis who was the head of the port authority intervened and between lines, it was mostly bill bulger reaching out to the head of the port authority to interfere in that case. but as far as we could tell, that was never documented. i think unfortunately, the trooper may have exaggerated in his own line, the problems of his encounter with whitey bulg bulger. >> you mentioned that bulger was the only one that pulled of this set with the fbi in new york there's a guy named dell that

you. he was working with the colombo family into about 32 murders there. he was working with one faction. they were fighting and he was acquitted at trial in state court. and what they did, it seemed like when they pulled that stunt with others, they were using the state courts to the bidding because the first question of the federal agents seem to have the money but the state courts. what i want to ask you about is, are we to believe that after james bulger to became a fugitive, that all of these gambling rings and drug dealers, just evaporated and all the police are providing protection and the fbi agents were providing protection, just went straight and all of the criminal activity just stopped in massachusetts? i mean, you know, there's

nothing else. i read your first book and i've read the other books written about this stuff. and it's like nothing else is going on anymore since he became a fugitive. it doesn't make sense. >> it's hardly the case on the street. but no one has risen to the level of notoriety or power to replace a whitey bulger or to replace in the mafia jerry on the outside of thing. >> does the mafia run -- the cheese man who was rather bumbling, and is in jail. people have taken whitey's pla place. but never to that speed wise operation was a cult of personality keep didn't create an organization like the mafia in the sense that there were outlines of succession or whatnot. when he is gone it basically did collapse and has been

reorganized in smaller ways and smaller groups. i can't even begin to tell you who they are because we don't coverage anymore. but i know from talking to law enforcement that there's still plenty of making a and loansharking and drug dealing and all the kinds of things that whitey had amassed in the normal, normal amount of centralized authority and power. >> my other question is about the investigation by john durham when he found connolly was, you know, a problem and also -- but beyond that there was nobody else in the boston office of the fbi that knew about this? was participating? what about the people that pulled the frame up for greco and others? what about those? >> you're making a good point, and which are speaking to end at all the court hearing on all the investigations looking into, going past john connolly and his supervisor, john morris, drawing

to track the institutional corruption of the fbi, get the public's arms around as we know deep it ran and all that. and we never have full accounting, that's true. without a full accounting then maybe you realize. in our book we certainly name of the agents who never were prosecuted, but certainly their names have been brought in and certainly whitey and his associates, had been on the pad, according to the journal documents, christmas envelopes and what do. they may have never been prosecuted so it's hard to see all that but it's in our book. and that is disappointing about this prosecuting mentioned from connecticut came up and prosecuted john connolly. we are all waiting for a report that documented and explained in fuller detail. >> [inaudible]. widening seven agents -- whitey

named seven agents who got their money from whitey. they came from law enforcement debriefings whitey bulger's associates spent we hear the statute of limitations had run on some of those crimes, and so they end up not being prosecuted. that's one of the things in the way i look forward to, whitey's trial is scheduled for june, and whitey's defense attorney, jay carney, is clearly, he's one of the best around. he's doing everything he can to make it ugly for the governor. and i'm okay with it. because i'm hopeful that we're going to find out some more about the fbi and institutional corruption. that's a piece i'm wanting to know more about because that's the thing that ultimate matters or should matter to most of us. they are the cops. we expect the bad guys to be bad. but what about the cops, you know? >> i have more question commit no else has. one other thing -- >> keep going, you're on a roll.

>> one thing to a roll. >> once you get a new city especially and sometimes new york state, they form a commission to investigate the police, state police. because by their nature they have so much power over us that they become corrupt. it's just the nature of them and did a lot of bad things. there's never, as far as i know, in recent history been any recent investigation of the police departments in massachusetts, or the fbi. in fact, as far as i know there's never been an investigation of the fbi nationally which is another big problem. uk to a place where they're doing so many bad things and get away with it, becomes normal to end its criminal but they're doing it as normal. so what i want to say is why isn't there any, ma why isn't there some blue-ribbon commissions in massachusetts to investigate the police? are they doing it? >> the scale in new york is so much different. 22000 police officers, and --

>> more than that. >> you raise a very good question. i'm convinced, 30 years of investigative stuff, if you work allies in boston and if you work -- vice, and to work drugs in boston, got to be on the take. that's sweeping and probably to sweeping. i'm sure there are exceptions, but you, if you don't take into squads, you are frozen out. so it's the way it works. >> it's a question for the governor or someone else. i'm serious. journalism can play its role. its role is, in theory to ideally be the watchdog enter buildings. but we don't have subpoena power. we can't call commissions. and it's an important role that the globe place and continues to play is to uncover these things. and if they had a. some other part of our

democratic process was to pick it up. >> i think one of the hardest investigative things that we did was to find that there were two detectives in boston who, their greater really robbers. what's a drug dealer to do when all the drugs and money are on the table and the please come in and they scoop it up? if you going to report the theft of his illegal drug money? so we were able to to document that. it was very hard. the boston police department was are hard on that but they went to jim. spent i agree. there is a problem and that's my question. see if i can get this done. in the group of citizens can go to court, five or 10, but -- >> i think we have another question. thank you. >> three reporters found, where were they?

>> on the same side of that coin, the fbi thought they were the good guys because initially of course it was, their intent was to break up the italian mafia. i'm sorry, sorry. the whole time the whitey bulger was on the run, you know, but all of the most in the boston area kind of new that if the fbi or the federal government wanted to find them, they would have found him. and that there was a reason why they were not finding them. now, if you think back and they might've been in your book, governor -- he wasn't have at the time, build wells what is the federal prosecutor that was overseeing that entire project if you will. and that there was a state cop that ousted made his way into

his office to talk to them. because at the time the state police and the state of massachusetts, they were the only claim cops on. they were the watchdog. and bill wells shut them out and he became governor. i work with the legislative bureau at the statehouse bill was there. everything you do any is back with us against the wall, ironically enough. my question is, do you remember when a federal committee was formed, and they brought bill bulger in and he took the fifth on every question? do you remember that? >> yet, it was a grand jury investigation that had been convened in part to find out who, if anyone is helping whitey stay out there. and initially he took the fifth. but then he did testify.

>> he had to testify before congress, because taking the fifth in front of a grand jury was deemed not civic minded for a president of the university of massachusetts. so anyway, it went up to congress, and he, he claims he had one conversation with whitey and that was, that's dubious. spin but it is all we can document. >> really? that's amazing that two brothers that grew up in boston during that time, and there's no evidence for to them ever had a conversation? >> he said it was one that was document. there's plenty and we write extensively about it. there were plenty of conversations documented between white and the other brother, jackie. he didn't need to talk to bill

bulger. jackie dr. white. >> billy, billy ran it from the statehouse and whitey ran it on the street, and effectively as a metaphor. and if you just tell billy to your set out yet no income and if you -- put you in a nice job at the nga or whatever. but the point being that it's kind of interesting is, the prosecution because, can you imagine the nuggets they're going to fall out of that? i mean, bill wells was a realize, george, nobody talks much and. spent we've got to get to some questions. i don't think you like bill wells. [laughter] >> i just saw him. but the point being is that, i guess my question is, will billy ever be prosecuted or the think they will ever, having nothing to do with his brother, whitey, but on his own? >> is a chapter in trenton --

[inaudible] there was reprisal legislation that targeted state police commander who was after why the end would've forced him to retire or take a reduction. bills position has always been he had nothing to do with that. he doesn't know where it came from and it was none of his doing. that, on the other hand, stevie and his debriefing said whitey went to bill and asked him to put this in as a budget amendment. so that's in the book. you can draw your own conclusion you want to be. i'm sure bills argued it would be steve is a murderer and how can you trust him? he was decrease on the basis if you told a lie, he would face capital punishment trial.

so there's of that. i'm sorry spent know, can we get you another question? thank you. >> at the risk of mentioning your competition in the publishing world -- >> who is that? [laughter] stick somebody else from "the globe," a couple people from "the globe" briefly publish something about whitey. what's going on with this on the fans -- song and dance white is doing with mr. sunday and the letters. your doctor and on about why we went to be in control. i have feeding that he -- >> does anyone know what she's referring to? >> no one has ever heard of this before. >> "the globe" has been running stories in connection with their

book about whitey. one of the things they've been writing about is they had a relationship with a former inmate by the name of richard sunday the was wiped out in a protective also interviewed him and he's in our book as well. but whitey writes in the letters and richard gives those letters to the globe and it's like open mic. whitey gets to talk ad nauseam, and there was another version of it today in the story. and it's to talk about what i call, what a good bad guy i am. that's his thing. and richardson is an old towel and he lets the word out. there's no question in my mind that letters have vowed and there's news in there. but like i say, there's also a time to step in and take the mic a way to look at and put things in perspective.

>> yes, ma'am. >> [inaudible] the dichotomy between bill and whitey is very strong. the demarcation is very strong. bill is a very accomplished man on the right side of the law. i think i read that he knows greek and he knows latin and is very accomplished and has a very layered career in politics and outside of politics. and then you have whitey. do you have a way to how these two guys did this? one with his wit and one went the other what you also have a read on how bill might feel about the brother from the wrong side of the tracks? >> that's layered in the book throughout in terms of their incredibly close relationship. unbelievable. that was astonishing to realize how far back and how deep and

how we're empty document that active housing projects when their boys and building the younger of the two. i think it's a lot more complicated than you began describing. there's good bill and bad whitey. they are both a publishing their field and i think they share a lot of same traits. >> yes? >> do you feel about whitey wanted to get caught? do you think it is time for him to turn himself in? i know -- it's hard for me to believe that he lived in california in the unit with all the advertising is going on. was a time he turned himself in basically on this? i don't think the. nobody did get a reward. >> there's a lot of skepticism being voiced in here about how

things seem to have gone down, and especially after his capture. you know, the fbi was standing up for the big high five. they finally arrested the men, and no one believed them. and still, i mean, we are hearing it tonight. we were not able to find anything that would contradict the way it happened, nor has anyone else but it happened the way it happened. but i think what it reflects is when it comes to whitey bulger, the fbi has no credibility, okay? and so instead of a parade they were still taking it in the chen. and to this day they are. and that i think is reflects the depth and how long and they're deeply embedded, you know, their tarnished repetition is when it comes to whitey bulger because we're not talking -- that's again what makes us a historic. were not talk about a single murder case or single investigation that was compromised because agents made wrong choices on a flight or

something. we're talking about a way of life, a culture that went on. some of us have all lived through it. that's what is sometimes hard to fully appreciate or grasp is that it was a way of life in fbi culture. there's a reference to new york and other incidents of corruption, but nothing like boston. nothing like what went down here. and i think we're going to be paying a price for years to come. >> i think that the fbi, you reap what you sow. disgraceful performance for at least two-thirds of whitey's life on the lam. i think they are stuck with it. tough luck. >> is there one more question? i think we have time for one more. go ahead. shout it out. spent it's so ugly what took so long to find him. this does seem they were not looking for them.

>> that's true. you're asking the questions we are asking. and then other people have been asking since he was captured and look slick maybe in the beginning there might of been when he first went away because they're still too many people who are directly involved in the corruption. yeah, they really were not looking for him kind of thing. but in more recent years, you know, we've talked to a lot of people. at the world really looking for them because they didn't know what more to do. it's not like they didn't want to find i know a lot of fbi and a lot of law enforcement, they wanted nothing better. the page of history has turned. we're talking about a whole new generation of agents. what a feather in the cap to capture this guy. but they have the tas task forcd always talked to dick talk about that every agent ever is looking about this guy inch get behind and that's not the case. remember, 9/11 happened, and that's a bigger problem i think than finding whitey. so the allocation of resources.

so there were stretches when, in some of the guys looking for them, they genuinely believe in conclude he was dead. they couldn't confirm it but that was their hunch. sometimes it was just a few guys with the lights on in the office thing what do we do today? it kind of got ramped up there with the entry of the u.s. marshals, and i think they made a difference in that last year. one last question. yes, ma'am. >> [inaudible] spent i recognize you. >> we have been to court a lot from his arraignment. catherine great write up to marianne and listening to them whine constantly and then pushing his buttons to change the date and whatever. my question is, you think the judge, that hasn't come yet, do you think judges turn will be the presiding judge over the whitey bulger trial? >> i do. >> i don't. [laughter] >> we are not the appeals court

now spent it's taken a long time, january 7. >> they could have said no, so who knows? >> we went last week and -- >> i do. i think he will stick it out. ease -- >> we're talking about there's been real challenge, a legal challenge of the presiding judge because in the '80s he was head of the criminal division of the u.s. attorney's office. so carney has been arguing, and the standard is an appearance of a conflict, and carney says he wants to call him as a witness and all this kind of stuff. so if it's an appearance of a problem, i think carney is kind of persuaded me. >> i think it's a sideshow. >> that's the big pending issue i think. okay. well, thanks so much for coming out. [applause] >> you're watching booktv on

c-span2. 48 hours of nonfiction authors and books every weekend. >> if you want to convert people, you've got to first of all want to convert people, you've got to first of all persuaded him of their soul is in dire danger. headed for the ultimate bonfire on the other side of existence. and for that you need to label them followers of the devil, diabolical human beings. so they look to the devil and looked among the deities. very elaborate, very well structured and they looked among the deities and they found issue, geeky cult issue. now, who is issue? often refer to issue as the human condition.

why do i call him that? issue is an unpredictable spirit. issue exists to teach humanity, there's always more than one side to any issue. more than one face to any reality. to give you the where of appearances, the best laid plans. all the best laid plans and my sin is always issue. but lessons embedded in such things. and when you -- [inaudible] dogmatic about any issue. it tends to do it in a rather painful way. in a, like a good teacher, abel and cain, cain for adults who learned wisdom, look at both sides of the question. his places at the crossroads

where of course the place for human beings get confused. which road you take at the crossroads. issue so miss jeff, he's not allowed in the house. -- mischievous. his places always -- issue is just too temperamental. and before you do anything in your region, before you worship any of the deities you make sure you set aside a morsel for issue. issue is really the and messenger of the deities. he can deliver the message straight, he's always truthful, but he may deliver it in a way without lying. that makes you misinterpret the message but that's because the other part. so when the schedule, the god of lightning, photographers, the god of purity, the god of war,

the god of, the god of the moist element, is issue. that's the answer. this upsets human plans, that's the devil. so if she became a christian, the devil, satan. and even in the interpretation, translation of the bible, which time year of the devil, it is issue. but issue is anything but evil. that is the truth. on the contrary, you will find att also helps the interpretation, the scriptures, wisdom, from ecology or the wisdom bound in the verses.

so issue is anything but the devil. but today, it's very painful to find one's own countrymen and women referring to asia as the devil. by contrast, look at what happened to issue when he moved to slice putt in america -- moved the slaves to latin america. feared by the christian missionaries. the slaves adopted issue as their patron deity, just to scare the christians who wanted them to convert. issue became the symbol of resistance. in latin america, in the americas. in fact, it would be on that. in certain parts of brazil, for instance, if i'm issue has even

been elevated to the supreme deity, simply because that was a symbol that was there, protagonists for freedom. and so you find the transposition deity across the atlantic of nothing miner but certain dt became not only a symbol of resistance in the world, but the supreme deity in certain parts. on the contrary if you go to the heartland of brazil, and to go to a shrine, the hierarchy is quite clear. but in certain parts, issue became supreme deity. now, consider today, this is the history in africa, in the year of our lord especially and this goes back a couple of centuries.

now imagine that today, to be a follower of that religion, is virtually to yearn the death sentence in certain parts of nigeria. christians also earn the death sentence in certain parts of. and christians act in time. but the level of its tolerance based on ignorance has reached such a pitch that you open the papers come anytime today in nigeria, you find out that the church has been burned down, worshipers machine-gunned, a mosque has just been burned down, worshipers bond out of existence. he touches you, even within that religion that are different

grades of purity. one side considers the other side not sufficiently pure, and, therefore, deserving. that situation, however, is more complicated. but it is, in fact, other societies. there's never one single issue that leads to total destabilization of society. >> you can watch this and other programs on line at the.org. >> -- booktv.org. spent here's a look at upcoming book fairs and festivals around the country. u..

>> the 3 19th annual annapolis -- 11th annual annapolis book festival on april 13th. authors are scheduled to present their books. on april 20th, montgomery, alabama, host the eighth annual alabama book festival featuring over 40 vendors and exhibiters, a children's education area and about 45 authors and poet presentations. and that same weekend booktv will be live from the los angeles times' festival of books. checkbook tv.org for updates on our live scheduled to, and please let us know about book fairs and