telling them about all of this, and he listened patiently and then he waited for me to finish and then said to me, think back to the best journalism, the best literature to come out of the vietnam war. it wasn't about vietnam. as much as it was about the americans who went there to change this country and how they themselves were changed. focus on the american experience. ...

>> but in terms of with

regard to afghanistan today, with the laws of the embassy compound to have to be escorted income the they set ground rules your ability to rub elbows it is

limited but it also means we'll understand much less for the good and for the bad. if i could have a beer at the embassy bar in kabul that i have to sneak into now, if i could go there regularly, i would have as many shopping details of dysfunction or interesting stories that turn out to be what the government would consider to be a good news story. but that interaction is so limited we don't get much of either one. we are all poor for it. journalists cover these wars and it is the unfortunate development not just america fatigued but the real

economic constraints of the newspaper industry and the media as whole. so it is much more difficult to convey a. >> that is a good point* if i hear psittacine journalist dai here psittacine orthopedic surgeon. this is not a job for a mitscher's people understand the context but also will get themselves killed. you have to see this as different players. there is a of a funny situation fixed-rate military specialist indebted in the chinks in to baghdad

for the soldiers yelling long live the americans we are so happy that you have come. this is one of the most constructive stories to be published anywhere of the american presence. , and anthony the most prominent journalist went on a patrol. tom was with them and the soldiers would introduce themselves along the way and then they would hear through the translator we support you thank you for coming to liberate us then anthony

spoke fluent arabic would pop in and say what you think of the americans? >> we'll pose them 1,000 percent they are here to kidnap our women the bullfight the met the first opportunity. not for translation but they said one thing to the uniformed military and something else is somebody who's spoke their language. that was such an important story but it still sticks in my memory. it said journalism that we saw but except claims of weapons of mass destruction there was a lot in the

immediate months that followed. it was internalized enough for as a nation what we have to live with the following few years. >> i have covered wars for a long time. but what is interesting and a degree some of the best is people who could of voided like during the invasion and a british photographer to convince reporters and others to put markings on the top bank came in from kuwait says unilateral cease

and called fair game. then we had an incident where the camera man were shot down in baghdad by helicopters and nobody could get anything out of the military until suddenly said camera showed up on with the leaks. what about that and the thin camera footage? >> i still think there unanswered questions about what they potentially suspected what the pilots were thinking. but they seem fair to me to look like a journalist and operate as a journalist. quite frankly, it has been blessed to u.s. american

citizens correspondents going over there. several have been killed. the real danger is faced by the iraqi and afghan journalists who worked for western news organizations like reuters. then arab or south asia. they put themselves on the of mine -- line and have been arrested and detained with coalition forces reasoning there is less of an outcry. the associated press photographer part of the pulitzer winning team detained for many months by the u.s. military. there is a double standard out there that is appalling.

these are the individuals whom without them i do not have books or be at "the washington post." we rely on them translate, a drive, provide security forces. in many cases places are too dangerous for u.s. nationals you rely on a brave local journalist. they pay a much higher price but they believe in the freedom of information and we should be reformed. >> normally pay earned a patents and not only under pressure from the battlefield and gunfire but from before. it has been the a under song

of reporting. but what you touched on briefly, we think of military action like a smart bomb. maybe not the pilots but surgical precision with the eye roll. it is the nature of the situation. there is an exchange that we use a precise guided missile that is safer for a ground fire weapons. of peace in the 19 year-old lance corporal he said referring to the machine

again you will kill people three towns away. you have protection and you have scared kids and some food get off on it and like it. i remember in vietnam to see water buffaloes and they put peasant families out of business by doing that. anyway. is your show. [laughter] >> they have become far more disciplined. but in afghanistan it is target practice. but the overall defense has taken root and they understand their mission should protect the local

population and if not they will not have a chance of success. putting questions aside if counter research -- insurgency was a good strategy or not but in associative question despite the embrace of counter insurgency with there defining ideology, are they cut out to implement that sort of strategy? with 19 year-old with powerful machine guns they should take steps to protect themselves but if you want to build trust and protect them coming you have to get out of your vehicles with

the inch thick armor and walked with them in show you are willing to take risk with real force protection issues. this is what stand in a crystal tried to push and got to resistance that he read about that exchange that as a result of a gentleman crystalline he was in command putting strict restrictions if uc taliban running into a building you cannot call out the air strike and he realized too many civilians we're being killed. imagine if you were on patrol in getting shot at you want to do them did. it was a cultural shift that the military and even the

accepted but it is hard to do what we need to do with the military that we have to minimize casualties. i say this with every should be there in the scope and scale in the first place. >> what about predator drums? >> guest: i was asked this yesterday. i will not have the drones are evil answer but especially so large conventional force would you risk are civilian casualties and drones are far -- far

more precise not that civilians have not been killed it seems clear a number of civilian casualties from the drone strikes operated by the cia. not to condone that but they have taken a lot of senior level and important leaders of al qaeda out of business. yes it does cause blow back in pakistan but some strikes are passive ignition and acknowledgement of the pakistan a government. war is an ugly business. we don't have a lot of options. we said we will not confront them and that poses a risk

to the united states interest. conventional troops is not an option not going well with the pakistan knees and if you did more raids like this, it puts american lives at risk. we should not realistic -- routinely sneak into pakistan airspace. i recognize their controversial and what i am not addressing is the legal framework and there are legitimate questions raised as well as the use of drone against u.s. citizens that is the big piece in "the new york times" about that subject. >> host: in the america of which comes from the '50s to develop and afghanistan, but

what comes out strongly in the book "little america" olmos not u.s. forces in the taliban but the state department and the pentagon. you have a series of examples have guys come in to figure out cotton is the perfect crop but somebody in washington does not like cotton and input is available but has to come from the u.s. itself. talk about that. >> that is the subtitle the war within the war for afghanistan" and i figured war within the war for afghanistan" and i figured as i traveled back and forth , i was observing two

fights, and the americans than at large and the internal conflict at multiple levels with the state department and pentagon and the clash between richard holbrooke in the national security council and even fights within u.s. agencies and cotton was a glaring example and in the '60s and '70s they largely grew cotton. they would stitch carpets and so close. while the farm land turned to poppies touring the soviet occupation because the pork farmers needed to feed families and that was the best alternative at the

time. fast forward to the current chapter. there was a well-founded desire to get them away from poppy not to mention is supports the insurgency and they said help us grow cotton again. some very smart experts thought that was a good idea. maybe not the most efficient but they wanted to grow it u.s. agency puts it roadblocks every step and objected saying that is not in their comparative advantage. but they would never export to the world market but it needed no way to get farmers to feed families. then a 1986 act of congress

projects king cotton and bars taxpayer money from other countries cotton industry. they could have gotten a waiver but nobody wanted to pick a fight. said the most effective competitor to prop me out there that agricultural experts thought was the right thing and we did not do it. it was appalling to me. >> to the end of little america, looking ahead with the limitations of the

afghans we should have focused on hours. are there any questions? to an. >>. >> i went to a a lecture one evening to traced heroin through southeast asia dead during vietnam's but then said it went to afghanistan and our hands were in that. >> there is so much poppies grown in afghanistan, the paste give this opium but that is turned into heroin. one province of afghanistan west of cantar were week

sent marines in 2009 coming in 2007 and 2008 produced more opium in the entire world's population could consume in one single year. nobody is bringing it in. no evidence i have seen that the united states or interests have been part of that. but turn the clock back to the '80s some have argued although i have not seen compelling evidence the cia encouraged cultivation to fund the resistance. we do know back then the funds would help fight the soviets. like the anti-soviet jihad what was then helpful one

generation ago now bytes the afghan people in u.s. interest with a current environment. >> what about president obama as feelings, what was his relationship earlier? now? >> guest: that is a great question. the president's relationship with the military operates on two different levels. the senior most commanders and the men and women who are fighting. i think the president and vice president and spouses have a genuine commitment to helping active duty military families and those who are wounded.

not just wounded warriors but veterans employment issues in developing resources to that issue that stems from a genuine sense we need to help those peoples and families especially those who have done repeated tour who come back with physical injuries or suffering pst -- pst. but senior military there is the evolution talk about the debates inside the white house whether to surge in afghanistan rather general the crystal the 40,000 troops he was asking for

late summer 2009, is something curious happened. the trieste's and mike:essentially all wind up in support of this search and become the principal advocates. the military should provide the best advice then step back and let civilians hash it out but secretary of defense player decided he would stay and let the military do the lobby for the surge that pushed relations into a new place putting the uniformed military in a position and some argue the president felt boxed in and did not

feel like sending that many more troops was the optimum decision but the generals said this is the only one that will work leaving him little room to maneuver which is why he announced a search he put the deadline to say they come home by july 2011 showing the deep skepticism of the arguments made. as we see how the president has embraced the use of drone warfare and special operations forces like north africa lower-cost, targeted to have more control from

the warehouse john brennan had far more control elements were played out to as opposed to afghanistan. the president's relationship has devolved but it got off to a rocky start the first year of the first term. >> host: you need a break? >> i am good. [laughter] >> your focus is then iraq and of guinness stand you pointed out to what has taken place is it when --

possible to go into war without making a mess? what do we need to change? >> we should not forget bob gates parting comments right before he retired where he noted in a future president to start a land war in asia needs to have his head examined. that said despite the enormous cost of the iraq and afghanistan war given a vast understatement the unsatisfactory on come and probably a great desire not to engage in a war like this

again we cannot assume we will never be called upon to do something like this. if deicide regime falls tomorrow and there is the international coalition not just to safeguard the with the initial aspects there will be certain elements of what we tried to do to transfer to other environments that means we need to have an honest assessment. this is happening. little america was equally with military and civilian

agencies but responded very different i am persona non grata with about uniformed military? i was invited to lecture the was gonna fall reading program and had a book club discussion the uniformed military lessons learned culture may not agree but they want to work. there is a danger if other components simply for political reasons want to say we did a good job to what worked and what didn't

with the $60 billion effort to rebuild the country in which 8 billion is unaccounted for but that is a lesser issue how many billions of dollars did not go to help secure the iraqis to protect our troops were create sustainable profits i argue it is more the spend more money in afghanistan and maybe get you were results out of that. there needs to be intensive effort what worked and what

didn't there are efforts to build for reconstruction operation but bureaucratic antibodies have conspired to restrict the size of that others a lot to contribute that capacity is just encouragements to invade another country. there is truth to that but if you honestly don't prepare now, if you are called upon to do this later , i really hope i see it play out in afghanistan we cannot play out somewhere else. spinach has there been any

genuine reflection with the lessons we could learn from iraq and afghanistan and would you do internally within government with the various agencies in the foreign policy establishment and citizenry? >> there is a shocking lack of knowledge. we get out of afghanistan but at the start and at the height that the rich

knowledge of the countries, a society, tradition, that we need to engage in these things with a meaningful outcome the fault is this in the academy and the think-tank then inside government inside intelligence community, diplomacy, fluori dated, shockingly few who have the necessary language skills or regional expertise devil we have not built the talent nor did we mobilize quickly. did we really need to have

the army of past and speakers? no. but once we're in afghanistan where was the approach to build? it didn't have been. >> host: i still try to understand how we try to remake a country cents alexander. because that is where ben nodded was when sheltering him reluctantly but he was focused and after torre borrow we shift to direct and go back to afghanistan but the taliban how is the threat and why go back to afghanistan in that way?

>> guest: good question. the taliban and not really a threat to the united states to make the logical leap if they come back with they invite al qaeda back in? some argue yes some argue no. and senior al qaeda leaders would they still do that today? al qaeda that has left that his comeback and afghanistan is a hospitable place for transnational terrorist activities more than 2,001. there are a lot of question

marks but the strategy is predicate did all this will happen why you have to build up an afghan government to beat back the taliban from national security interests but doing so is incredibly costly and time-consuming. and has a questionable chance of success because the government we try to empower is seen as hopelessly corrupt and inefficient maidu villagers support the taliban? most afghans have no love

but it provides not just order and security the basic things people want but can't get from their government that to say they will deliver swift justice in the arm is chopped off but it is swift and in those rural areas it is not a bad thing. with the local policeman and leadership are all about shaking down the population. so lew to restore a government that car's side is the unwilling partner.

he was supposed to have a press conference with chuck capel today that was canceled. accusing the united states to conspire or to stay there long her like we want to be there lunker but what is going on? he was never a partner because to him we promoted good governance by extension would pushout the cronies and warlords who he depends on for political support that this wooded he rode the power base so actively to sell seven tush had to have

counter insurgency? >> i can barely hear and see. >> not to mention the president and his corrupt brother. >> and to remake fact we have created so many more and in sumatra and another question deployed to iraq and afghanistan, an army officer no longer your in the military. i remember men and women

with military and especially medical personnel have been deployed time after time if god forbid we would have to institute the draft to have the of military force. >> thank your family member for the service of those countries those who are in the medical corps there are thousands of men and women whose serve there that in previous wars would have come home in caskets but will now live out lives some badly wounded but will lift

because of medical care received on the battlefield. about 1% of our country has served boris is serving fact is a small slice of society. we left to the fighting to professional officers, i think the all volunteer force has done great things. there are issues of around for it to be more confident it has ever been that it comes with the cost with that burden of small

fraction of society they can live normal lives and not think anything of it. and on the base what people think about every day people to go months without thinking or talking about the war. it doesn't hit home in the same way. if we had a draft we would not be fighting but i am not sure we as a country have all of the other problems associated with the draft

dodgers. how do you with the all volunteer force use of force for the most important of missions not because it is there but it comes with a cost lives, limbs, a taxpayer dollars. >> can you sketch out what you think syria would look like over five years? >> guest: i wish i had a crystal ball. it is a murky situation with real chances that deicide regime will crumble. because of continued pressure with the rebel movement's the question is what happens after to chemical and biological weapons and to what degree

is muslim brotherhood and a more extremist forces that are running the country, what happens to suze minority population? are they persecuted or retribution killings? there are huge unanswered questions and there are echoes of iraq failure may not be the right word but more robust preparations it is easy to criticize because yes figures are in exile but

they're still in the country but it feels like we could have a repeat of baghdad 2003. >> we have time for a quick question. >> it is night to think of them in terms were a woman was shot to win demanded to be educated and have many are set on fire to get out of terrible marriages and situation. >> guest: i was not trying to describe them in kind terms. make no mistake the incredibly stream this -- extremist ideology but why

they do have the appeal in rural parts of afghanistan. one of the very distressing likely outcomes but it continued withdrawal from the country but the status of women has marginally reproof -- improved in big cities like kabul with the rights when did enjoy a day with the ability to be educated it is a world of difference in the 1980's.

with the deeply conservative and eastern parts of the country so with women's rights with continued u.s. efforts making it up a priority that will be a sad thing. my hope is over time the women of afghanistan start to gain rights. it will be evolutionary not something that changes overnight and the big cities the gains women have made will not go away overnight and will continue to fight for that. it will be a multi

generational process. >> the just close with the line from your book, yee-haw is not a foreign policy. [laughter] [applause]

>> we have allowed a human rights nightmare to occur on our watch. in the years since dr. king's death social control has emerged from the ashes of slavery and jim crow. that no doubt has him turning in his grave today. the mass incarceration of for people of color is an amount to a new caste system that shuttles from high-tech prisons in this system that lacks form.

[no audio]

because it summarizes one of

the very important things i put in the book. page 178 and tear reads when young person even distant grows up with proximate living examples never she may inspire the goal remains abstract such models however inspiring are too remote to be true love alone influential but level model provides more than the inspiration his/her existence with that possibility every reason to doubt yes, someone like me

so it is my hope every child, frankly every adult with the nomination speech yes, she is the ordinary person if that ordinary person can do it, so can i. that is what i tried. [applause] to do in the stories of this book to tell you my experiences and my feelings. also at the time you will

find me talking in the child of little sonya then give you the reflection of the adult sonya. not easy to do to put myself back in time to tell you what i was feeling but i did it for a purpose from one i have learned and in the process that every single person in this room who has experienced even one of the difficulties i have faced and they are as diverse as growing up in poverty, a chronic diseases coming it is surprising how many suffer and never talk about

it to a child raised by a single parent with my ethnicity or gender or my background we feel the sting in some way to simply being afraid which most people experience and we create a bravado we can keep it. easy to say about hard to do. i talk about those things in the ordinary way that i can in order to give people

courage to rethink their own experience. there was the second purpose. the books of love for the books i read and make me think on a different level because there is a duty to read the books to discover new things and you learn how i use books after my father's death to escape and happiness in my home it was of a rocket ship out to one that landed me to understanding places i thought would never be i now

have the wherewithal but i found india and africa and places i had heard about on television but never a mention to knowing and i learned through books. i hope every child in this audience or who hears me speaking understands television is wonderful but words paint pictures and the way nothing else can. . .

>> an entire chapter was excerpted in a wonderful new media website which has all kinds of levels of hyperlocal journalism alongside long form stuff, and it's basically a 20,000 word chapter. that used to be the domain of "the new yorker." and it seemed like there wasn't room for that online, but increasing we're finding them online.

>> ruben martinez, find his book. it is very busy. he just painted a dark picture so nobody can be making a living in journalism accept mike who writes for esquire. you know, those of us who go into journalism, we usually end up working night concert covering presidential campaigns. mikey gets to do really cool stuff like hangout with rockers in bands like motley crue and write books about them. and write about rock 'n roll and violence and sex and drugs. and to put them together in some remarkable articles and also to think about new ways to get that content out. i want to ask you about two things. first off, as much as i want to ask you about the biography, which i found was very cool. i swear i'm not making this up.

i was standing looking at books, some girl came up and said we should buy that because he likes motley crue. there you go. i'm interested, you have a collection of essays, and you -- your fourth collection of essays out. you will tell us the title of if the and also, this one comes out with the cigir group. tell us about that. >> well, backing up a little bit, i've worked professionally as a staffer in all levels of journalism but my first job was alternative weekly atlanta. i went on after a three-week stint at georgetown law school to become a copy boy at the "washington post." after 11 much there i broke story and bob woodward hired me on the battlefield to become a writer, a staff writer, and i stayed there for six years. and learned the whole job of

journalism from the ground up. we had computers them. i've seen the newsroom go into change overnight from thick, ply paper and som some people with alzheimer's, not even elected, going to computers. we had pneumatic tubes. we had the whole bit. as a copy boy i got to learn all that stuff and then saw the change. settled there after i went to rolling stones because i wanted to use the skills i had as a journalist, and i pretensions to be more of a literary person. i was a writer had nothing to say and went into journalism because i was looking for stories. all throughout, well, i was at the post for six years, and i like to say since 1984 i haven't had a job. i've had more than 31 -- 30-one

year contract. and one of 12, two of 12, three of 12. every year around june i'm getting 10 of 12. i've always had to be in the market of marketing myself and my work. i was branding myself before branding was possible because as a writer need to have a unique style and unique voice but when i got to the "washington post" i was this kid from atlanta. all these great people. at an early age i figured out you had to be sort of number one in a class of one. you had to do something that other people didn't do. and the sager group which has now become a publishing company where i publish of course some of my own stuff, but others, over the years as i was struggling to be, to get my name

in different magazines in which really make my product really so good that they couldn't say no to publishing me, that they want to be back, that they wanted a second story and a third. just like everybody gets a star in summer but it's like learning how to be a good one time. everything together, your facts together. it's a complete job, and to be a freelancer, and it's something that you have to be dedicated to above all else. so the fact that, and there are some places, just like becoming an actor. i went to law school because i had nice parents who took care of me and they said you should be a lawyer first so you have something to fall back on. it's all very natural like what are my chances of becoming a writer? what are my chances of staying alive any kind of environment? you know, actually today's environment, i think you are pretty much alike missing a lot of stuff. this is a renaissance of long form journalism that's going on

today. one of the books my company published, the sager group, is called next wave and its collection of 19 great new young journalists under 40 who are doing long form. some are at newspapers. newspapers today are discovering feature stories to keep, say, a life. i'll also add that 70% of the students in journalism school today are women, so this will not last. i just came from the university of missouri, as i said. we had 500 people over two days, just five where mr. gratz. we had huge lovefest. and people, if your readers and you like the stuff, doing a multiplatform long form. i'm doing a 25th anniversary same within. i wrote the story that became the movie boogie nights and wonder long call of the devil and john homes. we are doing multiplatform with,

we've got interviews, video, nc-17 video. we have crime scene video. a lot of people are doing a lot of things. yes, the prices are coming down in some places but also out of this, by lighter, those places, they're doing deals with writer would've split the backend 50/50. i have done eight books, you know, six or seven of them with straight up companies and they're paying me 7.5-10 of both. as a publisher i'm splitting with my people, i'm giving them 15%. amazon is giving 30%. so we're basically splitting 35 of book. that's a lot. one of my books is here today because the system is such that you had to return books that aren't just to get return books but you can't return -- you can't buy any of them unless you go to amazon. i can't have been there today

unless i want to schlep them myself. so this is the point. the future of journalism is not dead. the sager group has grown out of mentorship of young writers, the whole, and it's the places that are growing, grant of land. all the other places i mention. i think the point you to look in different places. and just like those old parts of the "washington post," you should've seen them the day they came and their typewriters were gone, everything was going to hell. you know what? i used to pull my paper up, my six ply paper, rewrite it and type it again on deadline. and my editor would be standing over me like i was crazy. i love computers but they changed the way i write. i think just like eight tracks, just like dvds becoming in pg's, you know, it's like all about the content. all we are concerned about today, i'm wrapping up, all we are concerned about today is everybody liking.

like, like, like. sponsor, sponsor. there's got to be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and that's content. that's the marketing solution for the sager group goes i can afford to throw away a whole lot of money advertising. i just got to be there when someone finds me. there's some great stuff and that's what esquire is doing today. esquire has increased its circulation. they've got 50,000 ipads subscribers at 20 bucks a pop. they've gotten this diversified into this black book thing that they did for the last seven years, which is huge. and that's what we have to do. we can't sager, if i was going to whine, i wouldn't be a because i've got to make it happen. that's what writers are doing. we make it happen. journalism is not going anywhere the old fuddy-duddies who don't do the work might be going somewhere but we are here. content is needed. >> mike sager and his books. you should tell people what you

didn't do is -- >> i feel bad at this. >> "the someone you're not" and it is also the "next wave" which is the collection of -- >> sager group.net. >> you start your collection of essays with alarm, i hope i wrote it right here. i came to journalism for the story. would be fair to say as long as the store is if there's going to be journalism? the journalism lose sight of that for a while? >> journalism became like -- as the synergy with tv and cable group, i know a lot of people remember a current affairs. used to make that maury povich show. it was like the first, you know, crime, synergy with crime. i was one of the lucky ones to make movies out of crime and then all those crime shows. now we've got onto reality shows. we've also like kind of broken off this whole paparazzi

headline news come entertainment, celebrity culture which feeds upon moment of moment update of the web which newspapers can be which is why got to find new things to do. but it's an absolutely insidious that moment to moment stuff, stuff that is reported wrong all the time. but, you know, it's just what the people want. it's kind of like, not to be insulting to people who believe in religion, but our national religion is sort of this consumerism and the gods and goddesses of consumerism are the celebrities. we are just following them and being him and wanting to know about them. and that's what runs all the products that we see. esquire, frankly, we've had one issue over the last 16 years that i've been there without a celebrity on the cover, and it tanked. it was a beautiful like george lois throw back cover and it tanked. so we meet our celebrities. we need this stupid culture.

it's up to us as people to be discriminating readers, and when you're sitting there for 10 minutes talking about brittney like eudora, just take a minute, you do not know george clooney and what they're reporting about an or whatever. just please please, you know. and as long as we stay away from that aspect of the culture i think because we're all readers and that's what's important. we are using our brain to process the stuff. >> i write for the "nation" magazine and i just learned something and credible. if we would put celebrities on our cover -- [laughter] all right, got it. asgard put celebrities on the cover is kind of, you statesmen and then you on august the journalism within. full-page ad in your time about all their new projects and all the new digital efforts, a very good sign that journalism is on march. >> thank you. i think i am on six of 12. i hope i did a good job. >> mike sager.

jim lynch. >> hello. >> hello, jim. you have worked for every newspaper in the northwest, right, literally one after another. couldn't hold a job. that's what i'm here. but worked for great newspapers. in town commute even worse in seattle. >> i did. i wrote for the seattle times about the state capital. but also worked on the east coast. >> but you stuck in the northwest. >> wrote border songs which is a brilliant novel about the region. and you gave up on the craft. he went over to the fiction side. >> i did. i left journalism in 2004 because i always promised myself if i could ever sell a novel that i would quit and and go for and try to make stuff up for living which i've been doing ever since. my friends in journalism all

thought i must've seen the future or something because 2004, things started to turn kind of dramatically, as ruben was describing. in the last 10 years there's been this dramatic shift i keep getting e-mails from friends in the business who want me to send in the recipe on how you make novels. , you know, i feel that i'm guilty of some of the charges that mike is making of kind of the dinosaurs griping about the changes as they come. it feels very personal and dramatic that i took at "the new york times" out my house every day, and it feels kind of precious because i know that can be evaporating here at any moment. and yet i'm part of this whole thing. and i watch people and i think i'm ever going to be the kind of guy that is getting his news standing at the urinal from his phone, but i'm that guy. [laughter] i'm there, too. now i'm getting --

>> we didn't need to know that. >> i thought i would share. and that i'm also at the point where my daughter is 20 years old, and has great potential to be a journalist, and it's where her skills all lean and yet she's very nervous about it because she's been watching her dad described the freefall. and yet i want to be a journalism for her to go into. what worries me though is that not all journalists, or not very many journalists are versatile like mike sager and have that kind of dynamic approach to the business. they are our newsrooms full of really good shows who don't have a bone in the body that allows them to adequately present themselves and promote what they can do. and so it feels a little bit like my father-in-law who was working in a steel mill for 40 years, you know, and they just sat around and write about all the steel mills shutting down.

i think that's our reality, and i'm glad to hear that there's many different options for long form journalism and so on, and. what troubles me is just looking at it from the industry vantage. there is such a shrinking percentage of people that can actually go into the business and make a family income and, say, 50-$100,000 range. they used to be a great option for smart people that wanted to learn things. it's not as great now. >> it isn't as great, but you wrote a novel that is essentially about journalism. and it's a wonderful book, which janet ranked one of her top 10, i think it was last year, am i right? >> right spin truth like the sun committed any interest in journalism whatsoever it is one of the best ways to read about journalism now and the struggles and the complexities of the.

he writes about a seattle times reported into a 50 year-old story, and ripping it apart in the context of a mayor of election. >> part of the thrill of writing the book was actually almost nostalgic for the competitive two newspaper town that seattle yesterday. it's set in 9062 and 2001, and the reporter is a woman in from the east who isn't impressed with seattle, ma or this guy who is the legendary seattle guy who is now running for mayor, but it was actually kind of thrilling to get back into the shoes of a very ambitious journalist who had a pretty big target, and she was stalking and then having to pray, suddenly turn the tables on them. it allowed me to do with the whole kind of difficult ethics of journalism at times when it comes down to that, how do you describe the politician and compact them into 5 50 column

inches and that i could for the people and fairly for the individual to so yeah, it was fun. >> one last question. the fascinating thing was, to the extent i've written fiction, the thing i love best about as you can tell the story like you would like to do it, like you would like it to turn out. so she is going after really kind of a bad guy who's about to become mayor. and integrates with woodward and bernstein type going after scary people. >> right, but i think that, you. i just felt that it was fun to have, too often when people try to write suspense it's always good versus evil. somebody told me a while back that the good versus good creates a better drama and creates more momentum. there are two flaws well-intentioned adversaries is what i was looking at it so you could root for both of them in a strangely. >> the interesting thing is we

can get great political coverage if we read fiction. which brings us to adam mansbach. bring that microphone over there. adam, adam -- that's not really been come it wasn't so much your place. and yet we're talking before, however going to link you in? >> what am i doing here? >> this is it. [laughter] spinning but, in fact, your book from 2013 -- 2012, "rage is back," right speak with yes. >> it's about a mayor race just like jim's book. but, in fact, you do an incredible thing. the book is very journalistic in it that you are telling this great story again much like jim's book about something that happened in the past, people gathering back together, take on a bad guy. and i'm wondering if, i wanted

to go to parts of what you do but in this one, i'm especially interested in is it possible in fiction, in a made up story but a story that reads like it's straight out of reality, to tell us a lot about our times and where we live and who we are? with fictional characters but a reality that is not so far from journalism? >> absolutely. i think that for me the drive to -- are you done? >> i wanted this to be just right. spirit hello, america. [laughter] without a doubt the reason that fiction is compelling to me is because it is a window on humanity on the complexity of people's lives. i think writing fiction is ultimately a very humane endeavor because to do it well you've got to really do your best to understand how people

think and live and feel. and ultimately your best resource, perhaps her only resource for that is yourself. but you got to develop a certain kind of empathy. you got humanize characters that you don't like. you've got to shade and make complex characters that you do like. so for me, a good fiction, even if it's fantastic, even if it takes place in another time or another galaxy, it's still grounded in character and characters grounded in complexity and and paradox. so this will come yes, is tangentially cursorily about a mayoral race. that's a pretty limited synopsis. >> it takes place largely in the world of graffiti in the city in 2005, and deals with a group of people who invented and pioneered and perfected that form, and then watched it die before them. after an 18 year, $300 million war between the city of new york and the graffiti writers of new york. and just that language in

itself, the violence of that language but this is the biggest city in the country declared war on a portion of its teenage population over public space. public space which incidentally is now available for purchase. you can advertise on the outside of the trains if you're willing to pay $60,000 a month. and i did the city never would've come up on its own had a bunch of 14 year olds not have thought of it first. [laughter] but in the laws of the graffiti writers there is this paradox. there's a balancing the notion -- the notion of him with the idea of anonymity, art and vandalism to in the public discourse about graffiti, these things were always treated as binaries, as opposite. there was one discourse presented by mayors like jon -- john lindsay and ed koch about graffiti writers being criminals who should be locked under nice the children on the other side your folks like richard goldstein saying on the contrary these are the healthiest people in their neighborhoods, the vibrancy and originality of what

you doing, proof. absent and that discourse with the perspective of the writers themselves, the graffiti writers who did not want graffiti to the art or vandalism. they understood it to be both and it was valuable to them as both. even the way the graffiti writers talk about the relationships to their city, and no one knows cities as well as graffiti writers. they know the sub terrain. they know where and how the police patrol. the words beautify and destroy are used almost interchangeably. so to me it was an interesting and i was an epic world to write about. the research that it consisted largely of talking to the folks who pioneered this craft and/or largely still around. very little of my research -- most i conversations for about 20 years previous to even conceiving of writing this book. so it's important to me to be

responsible to the communities i was portraying. particularly since in the absence of trains to writing, new york city graffiti writers mostly live in the past and argue but who can paint of the winter 1977 and them come to my house and let me know if i got something wrong. i think that kind of responsibility to a community is in a way similar to what journalism should do. it should tell stories in a responsible actually i could way, but also privileged to out of the story. >> it's interesting because what you did isn't so different from what ruben did. you started out with ruben talking about spending a lot of time with a lot of people don't always get to listen to and telling their story. you put their real names and. you made up some names. but isn't that different? to do great fiction, quite often, and the are geniuses. for most folks it involves a great deal of reporting. >> i think it does. for me with this book, i'm

straddling a number of different worlds because although the book is very much based in the bedrock of fact, it's also got fantastic elements in it. it features a building and the jumbo section of brooklyn with a staircase, which if you walk in the first floor up to the 14t 14th, you travel exactly 24 hours into the future and you can't go back. there may or may not the demon's dwelling in the tunnels below the city. but for me, writing fiction is kind of a game of accumulating goodwill in the form of fact, in the form of believability, in the form of recognizable characters who seem fully human and fully dimensional. and that buys you the chance to do some crazy shit like it. so i can get away with that, largely because my facts in my characters are real.

if i can, in fact, get away with that. spent before we take your questions, start thinking of them, i have one more question for adam. you not only report, come up with some good fiction can you also making news. you did a lot of that during the presidential race. adam wrote a book which because of our c-span audience, i don't know whether i can speak i just said shit spent that's true, you pushed to the limit. [laughter] but because my daughter might be -- a couple more letters. then what you did in that book sold really, really well. so well that you do the sequel, sosa, just go to sleep. but it's a children's book. >> what was so incredible content and experience with the media, journalism, what we call political journalism now because you and sam l. l. jackson took that and imposed a concept,

scared, on our political campaign. spend it, it was interesting. calling it "go the f to sleep." >> you go where you want to go, brother. i just tried to maintain some dignity spent i'm not as concerned with that. yes, the concept of trannineteen a certain kind of plot for the adequacy believe there was this pressure to do sql. to immediately push out the h.r. vegetablevegetable s or put on your god damn shoes or whatever. [laughter] those strike me as i want to get overly tactical here, these strike me as a stupid. >> not to mention exploited. >> so i didn't even. that begin with this notion of buying and trading and selling capital by not jumping on any of those crappy follow-up ideas as presented to me by like three host of america, you come on their morning shows all of which i did.

hey, i got some ideas for you. there all the same guy but it doesn't matter if you're in toledo or anchorage but it's all the same day. they're all like a jocular to a guy who sounds like this and has a sidekick with a complement to its like johnny and booker in the morning, like every time. [laughter] then have the female cohost job is to sort cosigned their chauvinism by being like oh, you boys. terrible. it ought be like what about sequels. target attribute like because i've got some ideas. i'm funnier than you are. >> so we may, by not doing any of those sequels in the fact that allowed wake the f. up to be the sequel and that was a collaboration between a number of people. but it stars samuel l. jackson and i wrote it. it was basically intended to galvanize voters who identified in '08 ended in lethargic and iconic that and were not out in

the streets playing a role. so essentially it features a little girl who's going around her house trying to convince her family members that obama's accomplishment are significant and a romney brain would be terrifying. nobody really wants to listen to her, so sam jackson pops up in curses everybody out, one time after the next. we debuted it in late october. they got 2 million views within 24 hours. i do want to say we swung the election -- [laughter] >> or that you should of been at the inaugural. >> my ticket must of got lost in the mail. although we did hear some great news about obama backstage at an event, knew it word for word and did a great samuel l. jackson impression but if you're watching, mr. president, i don't know where my ticket when. thank you. >> the last part of it though is you also the sean hannity's mind. as well as a lot of other -- do

a lot of people who were not impressed with your production spent i didn't know that i blew his mind, or even that he had a mind. [laughter] >> there were some folks who didn't think it was the most dignified. >> no. because politics in this country is so dignified. this lord of the discourse forever. we can never go back now. [laughter] >> and on that brilliant point, we've covered a lot of turf. we've gone in a lot of different directions from heartfelt concern for daughter might not get a job in journalism the reaching out for an inaugural ticket. does anybody here have some questions for us? if you do, your job is to go to the microphone. and i have to imagine that someone does. if not -- here comes a young man rushing to the microphone. >> and house that?

>> brilliant spirit a quick comment. not only are you all guys but you are somewhat color-coordinated. >> we called each other on the phone this morning, and we are going to be performing at a small bar later this evening. >> i thought so. >> if you have ever traveled you will know that black it doesn't show stains spent a quick question. question. i think this is mainly aimed at night because of what you're doing with the sager group but also, i bring it up because it's interesting to me that this book fair is about five years old. it seems to be very successful and it's basically about print as opposed -- i'm not seeing a lot of e-books the. so my question is very quick. the future of journalism, what about the future of print journalism, newspapers, weekly magazines and so forth? is it all going to be these other great new world things, or is print journalism somewhat like we know it now, have a future? >> i figure the combination because i think people have a different perception of what's

important to save and what they want a paper and what they want in e-books. i love it because i finish a book at night i like to read on my side and i can just push a button and get something example and you can sample it. i love that e-book thing, but i also couldn't we put our first book in october and then i was like oh, we will bring it out for christmas, the paperback to have a little -- that's marketing. people are really insisting. they weren't going to buy the e-book because they wanted, especially this collection which they felt like something she what is it like national geographic titles. so i think the thing to be, i think there's a flexibility. it's difficult to do business right now because there's only different platforms of e-books. i have to format the book like four different times and kind of pay a programmer to do that. that's difficult and all that stuff, but we just don't know what it's going to be yet. this whole thing started out with my very first book which was my best seller, and i don't

think that they had the rights, and they weren't answering me back. i just didn't want it to die. and i feel like the great thing about all these e-books is it gives us the access to so much stuff. i used to live in d.c. and i used to visit them martin luther king library with a microfiche. people can talk trash about googling and all that stuff, but boy, was there so much information available. i think it's a combination that doesn't need to be either or spent jim lynch brought up an agitated question earlier when he said that he's become a guy who reads his phone for the news in the bathroom. because that used to be our line, right, that print would never die as long as you had to go to the bathroom. and now that's no longer the case, but one of, another part

in answer to your question is, that i think there is an emotional connection to print among people above a certain age level. the question that's out there is whether the emotional connection exists for people below a certain age level. and we're going to find that out. you're not going to get your answer into would get there but i can to you as somebody at the nation and we're folks have grown up entirely digitally but are thrilled when they did a piece in the print edition. so there's still something emotional about that. i'm not sure what it is. >> i have six old twin daughters in oakland, california, and we try to have both can we try to live on the border between the digital and analog, between hardcover books and the height e everywhere constantly leaping back and forth across that border. i just had a piece in new times in the opinion section, and i have to say that when it went

live at midnight, kind of a little through. but when i got the paper in the morning and i saw it in print, then i felt, yeah, i can go to mom and dad. my parents and say hey, i really got in "the new york times." not virtual, actual. so there's something about a -- hey, it's as. look around this room. we are here. it's baby boomers, right? my students are not here. how many undergrads are in the audience today? >> thank you. thank you. >> so there is, there are all kinds of digital divides, right? but in terms of experience of media among the younger generation, my students and undergrads, the hardcover of esquire or rolling stones is not in their hands spend let me ask this young woman are you because you raised your hand. go to the microphone and tells

the and to to the question, will you? we've got these guys other trying to tell us. >> paying for content. >> i agree with you. like when "the new york times" was we are a pay site now. spent i agree. i'm with you. >> pull the mic down. spent i'm a graduate student spend bring your microphone right up to your mouth spent on a graduate student, and i'm interested in attending this lecture because i want to do what the future of journalism -- i feel like am i doing the right choice by choosing to study like journalism? like role or whatever. and everyone keeps telling me that it's the wrong choice, by choosing to be like a journalist. i used to work with journalism before but if you like there is future for journalism. however, i don't see any future for the print journalism.

especially like the younger generation, i do feel like there's any undergrad who would read the newspaper from like first page to the last page, or even a book. it's just hard. for me it's like reading a thick book is harde hard to the readig books is, it's not for us. it's for other generations older or something. but there's other forms that okay, with the social media these days, this is like the future. with a multimedia come this is the future. but with print journalism, it's just boring. i don't know, like it's not for us. so that's what -- >> that is a very useful, very honest answer to a question. thank you very, very much for giving that. i appreciate it. [applause] spend let me invite the gentlemen who we put you in front of their for a second. >> okay. someone on the panel referred to

the decade of decline in journalism. that was basically 2342003-2013. that was when publishers did a great trade of publications. many of them exited the business and took their money with them. the content went absolutely into the toilet. you didn't address the problem of villain publishers and what they have done for the profession. and the future of journalism. >> a long time ago when i first starting out in magazine, i was at a great washington magazine called e-guardian, and i went out a time time or two with onef the ad saleswomen, and back then she explained to me that they thought of the stories as the stuff that went to pay for the ads. i think there's always this --

and in 2008 and 2000 that a lot of us saw our salaries, at esquire we got cut by 7%, for instance. i think that what's happening in the ensuing couple of years after '08, '09, they load all the budgets for all the stuff that we do, staying at enduring stories. i went to high school with a kid for four months. i spent six weeks following her around for anyone who she was. i just spent 16 days with an ugly guy in l.a. to write about what it like to be ugly enough in a very common you, judy conscious society. and all the stuff is, you know, all these budgets have gotten crunched. then as the stock market recovered and business

recovered, and even dumb writers who are are bad at legal and money, we can see the stock market going up, and i think what they saw, and as artists, we want to do this so bad so we will do for less. but the businessmen, they have less of a soul so they're going to go okay, we'll just spend that money, let's hire an ipad guy. let us higher -- they are putting their money and other things as they are relying on us to do the same thing for less. and i hope, because of also lived through other downturns. and 90 i worked for rolling stone and ended up going to g2 because they didn't have enough pages. so things are cyclical. i think that's a we have to see. we think about, some of the magazines before '08, there's 100 different men's magazines a lot of them died. it's like natural selection. so i do hope the businessmen will start to see that, that

there has to be something like a said earlier, that has to be the bucket of content at the end of the rainbow or else they've got nothing to put between their. >> guestthere. >> the first newspaper i work for the publisher took 7% profit a man is the mystic 30% profit. if want to get an answer of how we -- how we squeeze these things. that's the reality is that you can run a newspaper and make a decent profit and live a decent life. you cannot run a newspaper or a magazine and make obscene profits, and keep the quality up. so it is a huge challenge and it is, i think it is central. >> my first publisher was conrad black in candidate, the first person to request we sign a waiver granting them all our electronic rights for all of our print story spinning he was a fly man.

>> for which we would never get another cent. at that point i left the chain and went independent. >> let me take the question. thank you, sir. let we take a question from this woman. >> hello. i'm curious whether for those of you who are teaching, and that your writing, if you find that you're using a different vernacular to reach out to readers? whether the level of education you sing in our country mandates that we will change the way we are presenting our written word, or in your case are talking about graffiti. if we have to use alternate means of reaching out to readership? >> adam, take a shot at the. you are teaching at rutgers, right? >> i was teaching at rutgers as, in a program such teaching fiction writing to graduate since and i was also teaching a have a class action for undergraduates.

you, i don't know that i fully understand the question but i'm going to attempt to answer it anyway. i think that vernacular, the way that we speak, is always changing. it's always in -- language is always evolving and i think there's a lot of gatekeeping around that evolution. what i see particularly in the world of fiction is a resistance to precisely the kind of constructive natural ability to coach, which is to match up high and low culture that is a hallmark about everybody in what i would call the hip-hop generation speaks and thinks. and occasionally i write will be praised for doing this. occasionally someone will publish a book and there will be this rapid response to the way that he has, "the new york times" once said, it's a mashup

of david foster wallace and kanye west the it's as if he was in his basement laboratory and he had a body, the mayor rader was on the gurney and he was attempted to infuse it with both kanye west and david foster wallace and the way people speak on the street, and the first 18 narrators were not viable and he staggered to steps and collapsed, but the 19th one, like walk out into the world and it was this, it's like no, this is the everybody that he knows and i knows speaks. it's a natural instinctive thing. it eradicates a lot of traditional notions about the separation and the hierarchy of art forms. the ability to be equally conversant in homer and jay-z is how my generation gets down. in the classroom, it's important to me to not privilege one over the other, to make both valid,

to make the material accessible. but also to validate forms like hip-hop, which are at the cutting-edge of the forefront of how language continues to evolve. so i don't know if that was -- >> that's a very good answer. okay. ribbon, you teaching a lot, and i want you to be fast because we'll have a couple more minut minutes. >> beautifully put. i can't get the image -- i would just add that i think one of things that we haven't talked about, we are so confident on the format we would deliver and whether we're going to survive is what the content actually is. and the hope here is, when people first talked about the new media revolution, convergent culture, henry jenkins, all these voices talk about the great democratization, it was tremendous optimism.

but in the economic reality came crashing down, exacerbated by the bust of course and then people start looking around, well, have we democratized the voices? have we opened up the space? the answer i think is yes and no. there's all kinds of hyper local projects going on that our communities speaking to themselves aided by digital technology speaking among themselves in ways that were not possible before. transnational communities, migrants in bolivia talking to the relatives in queens, in new york. that was not happening before. speaking of cross-border ones, across the lines, the best that hip-hop vernacular is part of discourse, but is reflective of an overall turn into mainstream culture? your voice is there but the door is barely being budged open. >> every waste in an oversized jeans coming in, is speaking the same vernacular.

and i think -- >> not quite. spend i agree, i agree but i don't think it's a "new york times" or esquire or "rolling stone" magazine. >> then the music critic in new york -- e-7 money word piece on a wrapper that nobody in the show has ever heard of. that's the guy who is now controlling how people perceive music in the pages of the newspaper of record. so i see people in positions of power, and institutions. jeff and sammy at stanford who brought you into teach there. and i think the gatekeeping is being challenged. is beginning to change. institutions are being forced to recognize a partly because it puts, forgive the expression, asses in seats. hip-hop a 200 kids in chairs in the class or a class on medieval literature is not going to do that. so it's partly a bottom line issue. these institutions are being

forced to recognize and to change if for no other reason, self-preservation. >> what we were for too often is the price of journalism, has people to look for new ways. let's bring this gentleman right here in. spend i like that phrase, crisis in journalism. when i started with "the new york times" news service in 1964 we had a managing directive who was do complain about how william randolph hearst has ruined the newspapers. we always complain. we are like farmers. >> but you're right, it is an economic issue. and content follows advertising and a consumer society. so is the future of branding them sponsorship for the independent journalist? >> i want to bring jim lynch in because of our panel here, you came out of the most classic model, getting on the small tip, getting on the bigger paper. does it horrify you and somebody

asked about branding and sponsorship? where does it -- >> it doesn't horrify me. it just, it's symbolic of where we are and. i think interesting things going on with like propublica, is that the name? spend propublica as a model were essentially the gather money from wealthy folks and foundations. >> to finance investigative journalism that otherwise wouldn't be done, and i've a friend who is a journalist who just got a grant from the pulitzer foundation to focus on all the acidification that's going on in the ocean, how we are poisoning the oceans. so i really think that there's opportunities where we have to get far more creative in how we are creating journalism. >> also there's a very simple thing where a writers conference, a byline is a brand. a brand is just a fancy new word. because every writer needs to get a public and the new, blah

blah. it's the same thing spent do you know when people started think when i was a good writer? when i started appearing on tv. which is a very weird thing. but isn't that a weird thing? you appear on tv and suddenly i love your writing. >> you're famous. >> we have a wonderful circumstance your them what i anticipate if i'm looking at our timing right, our final question from this young woman here spent all right. so i, i came to this festival because i love books and i love reading, and i got the privilege to come down and visit my aunt. and she said i should come to this because it's something that not only me but my family is very invested in. and i wanted to address a topic earlier of will the printed word continued to be something valid and important? we saw this girl up here earlier say that no, the younger

generation is not invested in that it had to make something to continue to be worthwhile. and i disagree. i have been raised in a family that reading is something you do to learn and, and better yourself in life. and there's something to be said about, you, being raised, younger little five page paperback books and then graduating, finally getting to read harry potter so you can watch the movies. there's something to be said about the smell of a book you may pick up in a used bookstore, and you flip through the pages, and i know it's really dorky, but you stickiness to that and you smell the ink and history and where this book has been. the most loved books and our house have torn up covers and pages were chapters have followed up, where the glue has

melted. you carry these around. one christmas, i received a kindle. i think a couple christmases back. my older sister bought me a kindle the i stuck it in the bag with all these books for a trip. and my both attended the screen and made it in capable of being read anymore. and you know, i didn't miss it. [laughter] there's something to be said about turning back and forth on each side when you're reading on your side in bed. because you don't have it in your technology and you can be read one-sided book and you all, i have to flip over an epic sitting inside on a cold day reading your favorite book, or the classics. as long as there are people like mecompany, all my friends, which books back and forth. these are some the best memories i have is finding people like me who can say yeah, i like the smell of books, too.

[applause] >> wow. >> if the defenders of print did not hire you and put you up to that -- [laughter] then surely they will. because that was a wonderful expression of the. and i know what your friend a couple feet away from it doesn't really disagree. it is just this great struggle, this great struggle to figure out how we get to the work. and i want to go down our panel as we are closing off here, we really are in a last minute. i love what she had to say. my core concept is, i think what we really get at, no matter where becoming, the future, are going to have a real, public would have a real communication that is about something that matters, whether it is print, digital? and have to make sure that we have that?

adam, why don't you start? >> i think that storytelling is what this is ultimately about. i'm fan of books, too. i delete any other way. but what's ultimately important to me is that stories continue to be told whether it's in fiction or whether it's in journalism. that is something that is as essential to our humanity as anything. and i don't see it going away. i think the question about the printed word versus the digital work, et cetera, et cetera, that only comes down to largely how and in what manner the folks doing the telling of going to make a living. a lot of that is up for grab. there r. a lot of signs of the apocalypse coming. i mean, when industry giants merge instead of competing, that's never a good sign, right? when they pick the worst possible combination of the names for the new name, like you couldn't call it pink when house? you don't think that's a better name, or random penguin?

[laughter] we will go with random house penguin. that's what got you all guys in trouble in the first place. so these are dire in changing times, but i think the imports of storytelling will never change. so i remain somewhat cautiously terrifyingly optimistic. [laughter] >> i think that if we all lived in the dark ages, as we were walking down the village people are throwing chamber pots out of a second to win on to second to win onto our heads, we might've thought that the sky was falling as people have since the dawn of time, that there's stuff we just don't understand and things change. we have to go with the changes. i can't tell you how many different devices i've put all over my phone numbers in sense 1978. and now i have the best advice of all. i can't even remember whether if it's only the first thing i remember i just write it in a.

it's like stuff changes. hopefully if we have our health, that's most important thing. the rest of it takes care of itself. it's scary because we just don't know. that's what anxiety produces. we just don't know. when i was in first grade where to go outside in the hallway and duck and cover, practice those drills. so certainly we all thought we would be vapor by now. so i'm optimistic about the human race. certainly on a day-to-day basis, they annoy the shit out of me, but i think we in the end, we transcend and i think writing is the highest form of transcendence that we have. it's thought on paper or in digital but it's still the thought that counts. >> i'm optimistic because every time i do these panels, i can tell you how many times i've been on the panel, the future of journalism, the future of the printed word. i've done this many times in these panels have seats full of people in the audience, people turn out for this.

that's what gives me optimism that we're going to survive. the platform quote unquote, whether the printed word will wl survive in wages but so beautifully, i go with my daughters to on walden pond in california can one of the greatest used books in this country, and it is filled with dust, in the air. gilded by the sun slanting through the window. there is a beautiful romance about the printed word. ultimately i'm less concerned about whether it's here or its virtual hologram, rove a word, i want that we're getting some and and wanted to burst through the berries do so exist in terms of our audience. >> yet, i could at what they said, but back to my daughter for a second. she's looking to get into journalism but so far basically she's gotten all her news from jon stewart and stephen colbert.

[laughter] and yet she has a fascination with the written word, and she would've stood up i hope and said something similar to what this bright young lady just sa said. but it does do concern me that when it comes to what the consumers actually get as far as news, that we not only have a red state, blue state thing but we have the right fact, blue fact and we're leaning towards the red news and blue district and i don't think that any of that is all that constructive. bud lite to go back to what she said because i think she summed it up as well as, or better than anybody in the men in black your good. [applause] >> the "men in black" have come to the conclusion. each of these gentlemen has a great book out. i highly -- i had a wonderful duty as a moderator of having to go and find the books and read

them. and i have rarely had the experience of enjoying the process so much. and it was only through reading them that i knew how i could connect adam and gym because they both wrote a fiction about a mayor campaign. so reading, however we do, is important and reading journalism is important our greatest poet, walt whitman, said i give -- i speak the password primeval. i give this kind of democracy. he was talking about the written word. he was talking about poetry, but his poetry, both journalistic and its character. whenever we call this thing, it's going to matter to us. if we are to give the kind of democracy, we're going to have journalism to give coming today giving us great confidence that we will. please give him a final round of applause. [applause]

>> and thanks for joining us for our live coverage of the 2013 tucson festival of books. >> are you interested in being part of the tvs new online book club? each month we will discuss a different book and author. this month we will be discussing michelle alexanders the new jim crow, mass incarceration in the age of color blindness. throughout the month poster thought about the book on twitter with the hash tag btv bookclub. and by anna facebook page. -- right on our facebook page. ..