>> all right, katie pavlich, her book is "fast and furious: barack obama's bloodiest scandal and the shameless cover-up." thank you so much for joining us enact thank you. here's a look at some upcoming book fairs and festivals happening around the country. the venice book fair and writers festival the first weekend in april. it features readings in the historic venice theater. booktv will be live from the 11th annual annapolis book festival in annapolis, maryland, on april 13. our coverage will include panel presentations ranging from slavery, women's issues, and americans involvement in afghanistan. check out the full schedule of events at booktv.org. then the eighth annual alabama festival. it features 40 vendors and a children's educational area, and we have authors schedule. that same weekend we are live from the "los angeles times"

festival of books and our coverage includes author presentations and call in interviews. check out booktv.org for updates on our live coverage. let us know about your book fairs and festivals in your area and we will add them to our list. post them to our wall at facebook.com/booktv. or e-mail us at booktv at c-span.org. >> next on booktv, les leopold talks about his hidden world of hedge funds. he argues that they are bad for our economy. this is about an hour and 10 minutes. >> thank you for having me here. thank you for having me on c-span. i appreciate c-span being here. your college dean commie so much about writing. the thing that he thought that was most important is that you

have to put passion in your writing. you can't just be a boring person. he actually does that and i have to tell you that it is the one thing that blew my mind. if you think that i will put you to sleep, you should try reading hegel. this ended with a passionate love scene. it is something that scott hegel wrote about. if you can turn a philosopher's dry words into a love scene, well, you can write with passion. i have never forgotten, that, mike. okay, we are dealing with tonight -- let me see if i can get this going here. why write a book like this? well, what is trying to do i'm

trying to raise fundamental questions about how economic values produce really. what what is it that they do that is so valuable? >> the second thing is the root causes of increasing inequality. it is the gap between the super rich and everyone else. the third thing is to kind of revisit the economic crash that happened in 2008. to see if we can get a deeper understanding of what happened. i must admit when i wrote the book, i was kind of naïve. i did not realize what they were really up to. this book is taking it into new territory. okay, let me ask you a question. what is a fair salary wage for

you. were you hoping to earn we become journeyman? >> oh, by the way, i forgot to type about my thesis work tonight. so i thank you. okay. what is a good wage? >> [inaudible] >> $56 an hour. what the thing? okay, so let's go for $60 an hour. why is someone going to pay you $60 per hour. >> okay, because of the skills that you have to do the job. it is not just the skills that you have but it is actually applying the skills to do the job. so why are they going to give you money? what is in it for us?

>> [inaudible] >> okay, there is risk involved. what else? >> [inaudible] >> you're providing services for them. that is great. what else? >> [inaudible] >> you work hard to develop your skills and go through the full program, including doing the minimum requirements. what else? >> [inaudible] >> that's right, like if a commercial electrician put up a building. you're making money for them as well. that's right. >> is there anything else? >> [inaudible] >> you're producing a high-quality product of incredible value. okay. fair enough? all right.

so we will try to figure out the mystery which are what are the things that are called hedge funds produce. before we get there, let's look at some of the occupations in the country that have the highest income. let's see what it looks like on an hourly basis. the first chapter of this book, we look at the wealthiest occupations in the country. so here are the top 10 things for 2010. you can see leonard dicaprio had an income of $77 million. you divide it by the number of hours that he works and you get his hourly income was $37,019. the average for that is $21,298

per hour. as you can see, you can see it includes other shows like jerry seinfeld, johnny depp, charlie sheen, adam sandler. so what do they do to make all that money? how come they get paid so much? >> [inaudible] >> yes, they have the profits of the people hiring them. >> [inaudible] >> yes, they have a lot of bargaining power. okay? >> [inaudible] >> there you go. they sell movie tickets. and what is behind the movie ticket is a very simple exchange here. we like watching him. so we will pay to watch them. in exchange, they get money with entertainment. it is something that we all

understand. do you begrudge them for making a lot of money? no, know, it's kind of fun to watch them. we all keep going. we are not protesting over 10-dollar tickets. so okay. let's take a look at this now, the top occupations in the country. but start at the bottom. the top bank insurance ceos, roughly $8000 per hour, lawyers and authors, by the way, i did not make the top 10 in 2010. i'm working on it. when i get the check, the latino. [laughter] >> have the movie stars, your top athletes, tiger woods is number one. of the top ceos, top celebrities in general. i was very surprised to find out that the top of this whole group was movie directors who make

more than movie stars. so what we have done is put together to see their hourly income. then there are hedge funds that are off the chart. 842,000 and that is a lot of money. that is 40 times with movie stars make. were they do? we don't know what they do. we just don't know. ask anybody what they do. and you will get that i don't know. are we paying to watch them hit a golf ball? we don't know what they do. but they are making way off the list. so what is a hedge fund? well, here are your options. first, a garden supply or hedges

against tough times. order the super rich where you need at least a million dollars in wealth in order to invest. is it a or viewers the? >> okay, it is see. i didn't make the test hard enough. i can talk to you about that afterwards. but okay. so that is what it is. we have pension funds that want to get in on the action, lots of large funds want to invest in these banks, the person who runs them gets 2% of the money off the top and then 20% of the profit. so the questions are about what are they investing. well, the top hedge fund guy in 2010 made $2.4 million an hour.

that's as much as the average family makes in 47 years. one hour of work. did you go to work today? one hour would equal a family's income for a lifetime. so if you're going to do that in our economic system, you better be producing a lot of value for the economy. all of those things you just mentioned before about building something. still you put into it, the service they provide from all the stuff that we provided. a it better be truer we have a problem. so let's explore that question. and there is one more. the top 25 hedge funds earners earned as much as 50 thousand

teachers. another dimension is i want you to get very curious about what these people do. let me make you even more curious. in 2010, the top hedge fund made as much money as apple. okay, apple has 700,000 employees and contractors around the world. in the top hedge funds have under 100 employees. so they produce as much economic value as apple with 700,000 employees. what do they do? well, what do they do with all that money? got to be feeling their impact. they ought to be doing something great. absolutely stupendous for the american economy. so where does all that money come from? how is it possible for that much money to exist? you're hoping to get your 50 or $60 per hour.

you are well underway on your way to doing that, you will be worth every penny. where does all their money come from? are there any questions of our? okay. most of you are still with me. if you have is to hang onto, and this chart will be do you well for the rest of your life. what we are looking at here is a measure of u.s. productivity. people talking about productivity, how much output you put out there, getting jobs done. if you measure that for the whole economy, what it comes down to is it measures a level of organization for technology and skill that exists in the whole economy. what is amazing about it is that every year except five years, productivity went up.

in other words, the way they measured it, they took the total amount and divided it by the number of hours. not how much it cost, but the number of hours. so we were able to produce more per hour every year. it didn't go down by very much. that measures the wealth of the united states. that is why we have so much stuff. and you have probably already seen it in your short careers. you use a different kind of switching box or something. not only is it faster, but sometimes it is even better. so that is part of productivity. well, between the world war ii and through the mid-1970s, every time productivity went up, the average worker wage also went out.

too many people here are my age. but if you grew up when i grew up in the 50s, my parents were working-class immigrant people and their standard of living, they lived in the little box house out in the suburbs. you could see their standard of living is going up every year a little bit. they got a few more air conditioners for the house, they even went on a vacation. they win on a cruise for the first time in their lives, there semi to private university. but they didn't for my sister because they didn't have the money then. the weight went from $400 per week and went up to $746 per week. that is the average for working people across the economy.

then the two lines split apart. we just start going down, productivity keep going up. that is something quite amazing that happened. any idea come to mind? >> it comes later in the 80s. there was technology involved. but these two lines split apart and have the same technology. >> okay, something special happened. are there any ideas? >> [inaudible] >> what's that? >> okay. actually, he started as a democrat. are there any other ideas? >> well, the stock market has been around for a long time.

[inaudible] >> there were some stock market crashes. there was some turbulence going on in the economy. yes? >> [inaudible] >> there was certainly some of that as well. >> [inaudible] >> greed. that's very interesting you should say that. i try to do some research on the history of greed. i think it's been with us for a long time. so you raise an important question. because societies can do to contain it or they can let it go. >> [inaudible] >> yes, deregulation. let me talk about deregulation, talking about, you know, from a business point of view.

what is the number one thing they want to get rid of? take a guess. >> [inaudible] >> in general when they say that we have to get rid of regulation, we think they're talking that most? >> taxes. yes, you are the first audience to get that. so well done. the unions are the biggest regulation because you're right there, so one of the pieces was the economy is was kind of screwed up during that time. so there was a very turbulent time in the economy. and a bunch of economists and

policymakers got together and said we need to run the economy. and we should deregulate, which is something that is important. especially finance. if you deregulate them, they will do some good things. so let's deregulate finance and get rid of taxes, especially on rich people. what will happen if you put all that together and they will invest it and you will get a boom. so they put that into practice there. we are going to make this work. and so productivity really took off. but the wages did not.

so where does this go? the only chart i could find anywhere that looks like this one is this one. they split apart, and you know what this is? is that the financial sector wages versus everything else. wall street wages versus wages in the industry. the two were together like the other pictures. a few years later, this is 1980, the wages on wall street shot up like a rocket. so now the lines split apart, the money goes up to wall street. this answers the question of how to beat hedge funds have money to even play with. because tax cuts came in once you deregulate wall street, you

can expect incredible things to happen. and they did. okay. so that is our little plan here. are there any questions on this? >> [inaudible] >> well, we actually -- >> [inaudible] i am glad you mentioned that. let me make two points. the first is the difference between those lines this year, it is something like $3 trillion. the average wage would've been $1171 per week. the average. the average would be 1171 if the world war ii trend continued.

productivity would be shared on a consistent basis with working people. so yes, it doesn't go vertical. that is what those vertical on wall street. so okay. moving on here, here is what they wanted to see happen. here's what happened in the banking industry. the whole economy jumped from 14.8% 62%. so wall street got more concentrated and bigger. >> once you deregulate, you can do whatever you want. you can have a bank to operate even more than in space. so now you have citibank and chase and bank of america all over the country. and there's only a few of them left. so the other thing that happened

was the richest people got a lot richer. in 1973 before they split apart, 8% of the total income of the country went to the top 1%. there were still rich people when i was growing up. now, it has gotten kind of crazy. 23% goes to the top level. almost three times as much thinks to the deregulation plan. so this is one that i thought you would like. original data. we compared the top ceos in the country and compared it to the average wage worker. top earning ceos are $45. then the top ceos earning $723.

you think that they got that much smarter that quickly? did their skills get so much greater during that time? that is a question to consider. for every dollar that you earn, they went from $45 to $1723. and 20 and 36 years. that is quite the change. so how do hedge funds -- how do these investments actually make money? if you master this technique, you can go get a job on wall street. this is the craziest thing i ever came across. are you ready for this? okay.

you have to create something that is designed to fail and then you can collect insurance on it. so does the equivalent of you going to work, soul burn down within six months. and then you take an insurance policy out on the building. how long do you think the blast if you do that? not too long. but that is what we will get into next. did you ever hear the words financial innovations? these are the terms that are used. when i first saw these, my eyes glazed over and i thought oh, my goodness. i bought a textbook on one of them costing $90. i read two pages and it was all math. i had to put the book down. i could not deal with it. i could not get past two pages. the worst $90 i ever spent. okay. here's what we will talk about.

that is the housing boom. if you look at that and start with a graph that i have -- if we went back all the way to hear dactylic 1850, the wine would more or less be flat. this is inflation and everything else, it is more or less constant and something incredible happens a decade ago, and it shot through the roof and then crashed. so this is the economic crash. housing prices hit levels, like never before. and then it goes down. so i will give you a sense of how that happened tonight. did someone bring the champagne? [laughter] >> okay.

here are the basics and you must stop me if this doesn't make sense to you. here's what they did. you know what a subprime mortgages? is garbage mortgages? are not qualified, but they give you the mortgage anyway and the interest rate jumps up and they say, don't worry, you can sell your house in a couple of years. but they basically -- they look at the people who don't really qualify for a conventional mortgage and they do these subprime mortgages. so here is their big trick. you gather up a thousand subprime mortgages. they are supposed to pay interest and principal every month. we take the interest. he poured into a bottle. that bottle is all the interest. all of these mortgages are not going to fail at the same time. historically, 90% of people in

it with default. so you put all the interest rates together. all of that income. and these wine glasses -- those are security is like bonds. instead of a system where you pour out the wine, the top row, than the middle row, then the bottom row. so no matter what happens, if you have 20% foreclosure, 30% even, you will pay the taxes first. so if you buy the phone, you're going to be okay. you're going to be fine. you're going to get your interest rate. you are going to get a very good deal. are you with me so far? so they took that to the rating agencies and got triple-a ratings. which meant that they were as good as buying government bonds. no problem. they gave them a nice interest rate. they are paying high interest

rates, people said, oh, that's great. you'll get a great interest rate return. they sold those things like hotcakes. the next row, you only get paid half of what the top guys get paid. so the next row was a little bit harder to sell. the bottom row, that is the gamblers. if you buy the bottom security, you get 20 or 30% in return. so that is a mortgage-backed security. so what do you think? they had no problems selling the top row and they started selling it, they wanted more and more than subprime mortgages. so they kept trying to find more people to give mortgages to. so you have more people buying houses and then you are getting mortgages and selling them to

wall street who are packaging them up and selling them. like an assembly line of mortgages. are you with me? okay. what did you? you guys are smart. what do you do if you cancel the ones in the middle row. would you do with them? >> woodcut? >> [inaudible] discount on? >> that is possible. >> he is auditioning for a wealthy job. so how do you do that? >> [inaudible] >> it has to do with the passage of the other law. >> there you go, there you go. when they couldn't sell the middle row, they would take all of the middle row and start the

process over again. so they started the whole thing over again. ..

would >> all of the legal stuff, getting it together, but guess what, sometimes it's not too difficult. it is just where they run run out of subprime mortgages. that is what they were doing by the way. the guy who did it, he engaged in fraud who was an employee and he was rewarded as the employee of the year even after he was caught. after he was caught, he was awarded. so here is what happens. they are running out of mortgages. so they decided so i can explain to you right now, but that was

how they did it. you guys know about this? how fantasy sports works? so they don't own the players, but they figured out how to use this as well. if they own them, then they literally pick this thing up as a series. fantasy mortgage, fantasy finance. exactly. so they say pretend you own these mortgages in las vegas and new york and these mortgages in florida and see what happens. and we will set the same thing. but trust me, they did it. here is where the hedge funds came in. >> [inaudible] >> well, they created insurance in the oddest way. to make that work, the people

that bought the top row, they get the insurance premiums from someone who is betting those names are left out. ..

we see that the neighborhood is already on occupied and they are never going to pay off their mortgages. so what they did there is a great case in the documents where literally the hedge fund and goldman sachs colluded to create something like this, sold off the top row for a billion dollars to three large institutions a billion dollars and the hedge fund bet against it. so, if those houses went to be felt the hedge fund is going to win a billion dollars. what the people bodying didn't know is hedge fund picked the mortgage and what did they take? the worst one so you can collect the insurance. i swear to god the hedge fund got a billion dollars. goldman sachs made its money by

servicing the hedge fund and selling it and the investors lost a billion dollars. this happened at the peak of the housing market because people were trying to unload what they had in the securities. so this is every bank started to play this with hedge funds. design something, it's going to fail and take out the insurance. now, the question is do you think it was legal? what do you think was legal and illegal? by the way, can you think of anywhere else in our economy where you are allowed to produce something so you can bet against. if you try to fix a horse race

they are not allowed to fix the horse race. >> that's called illegal. any place that it is legal. can you why your something happen? you probably could figure out how to do it but they would put you away, right? so it's probably not legal. >> a lot of these firms are affiliated with jpmorgan chase and the kind of mortgages knowing which ones are going to fail. >> they didn't get caught doing quite that but that would be interesting if jpmorgan already told the hedge fund why don't you put them in and it will fail even faster that didn't happen

that the government came and investigated and we found 154 million citigroup 570 million. guess how much the hedge funds were? zero. they got to keep all of their money. by the way, i wrote a piece in the huffington post where i suggested that perhaps this was a bit of a slimy thing and if they were so smart why did they have to engage in what i considered a mere criminal conspiracy guess what happened when they threatened to sue me. the hedge fund threatened to sue me for being involved in the criminal conspiracy. they dropped the word meter. it shook me. i got scared. i said a billion this is the richest of the hedge fund guys

coming after me. so, i am sinking weight i didn't say he was a criminal. i said he was a mere criminal conspiracy. and i'm thinking it's like having sex. is there a difference -- if i remember this correctly there is a big difference. [laughter] if there is and, let me know. so, i chickened out and i went through the piece week after week and i got 300,000 hits so i got the word out but i got scared. then i found out from the publisher calling my agent to get a draft on the next book and they wouldn't give their name so i am realizing now they are investigating. there is a private investigator on my tail. why are they so touchy why do you think they are so touchy? they know they skated right off of the edge and beyond.

but this is just the start of a best. >> [inaudible] >> excellent question. they were fined not fully disclosing to their investors that the hedge fund was handicapping of the race. that is what they were fined four. they didn't disclose that she was picking the horses in the race, picking them to lose. that is the full disclosure law but this is the only place in capitalism, the only place i can think of that you are allowed to do this. go ahead. >> they do that on their executive. they probably have one now

because he would be absolutely impossible to replace. let me move on because i want to ask you that is just one story of what they do. you asked for another one. you know jim cramer on mad money he is a right. he used to run the hedge fund. he ran for ten years and his rate has returned. the average was 23% a year every year. so he writes this book called confessions of an addict or something and he describes and this is actually an entertaining book. and it is full of his everything else but it's not a confession. he does an interview ten years

later on a website that he partially owns, and he says what he does. and i read this and i went my god, this guy is saying this stuff? here's what he said. he works for cnbc. and even when he ran the hedge funds he used to appear on msnbc. so if you are trying to manipulate the market and you are on cnbc? here's how he lies about that. he slips it to other reporters and he says i got a tip that google has a problem, and application. and he did it about apple because apple would never tell a reporter what he was doing. so if you slip false information to a journalist there is no way

for them to check get so he would slip into these little things and his own colleagues and would either go up or down based on that report and he basically says you have to lie and he says that in the interview but here is what he really says. if you are not willing to do these things come and you shouldn't be in the game. you heard about insider trading. we have 70 people behind bars because what they do is get a tip on the stock before everybody else and they can make their debt. by the way, when people talk about wall street, we think casino. wrong word. casino is a game of chance that's regulated. there's odds. everybody knows that and you can win or lose. when you are making money like this, you don't want to taking risks and you want that inside

information so there is no chance a few losing and the list goes on and on. we are going to stop for questions shortly. the book is designed for those of you that want to make a million dollars an hour. the 12 step guide from rags to riches and if you have problems with this it will also explain some of the ethical problems that are involved. anyway, this stuff isn't just fun and games. let me close with a question to be it should we prevent this kind of moneymaking? if not? why not? should we let these hedge funds to what they do like the products designed to fail? yes, no? >> they manipulate the stock market and it can cause companies to either crash, to

lose jobs and it's wrong. >> that's interesting. here's the thing. it doesn't cause you any problems i am just taking money for the average person. >> who is paying for that money? >> everybody comes and bayh is this kind of thing without anything behind it. >> excellent point. excellent point. are you going to get in the way of these people trying to earn as much as they can? don't you want to learn as much as you can? you want somebody telling you not to do it? >> there is a question on the moral standpoint. >> let me talk about what it costs.

use of the picture of the stock market, the housing market hitting the top and then coming down? that coming down was accelerated dramatically. on the way up it was accelerated by the crazy finance baseball game they were playing. on the way down it was accelerated because imagine this, if there is an underlying mortgage and 20 different bonds or on one underlying mortgage, the 20 bonds will go down. when they said that they had toxic assets and stuff like that all over the world, the really did. it came crashing down. it got accelerated in the downward pressure and got this. the number of unemployed people get fairly steady from 2000 to 2008. when the game ended it jumped up to 14.3 million people unemployed. over 12 years at the current rate, i base this on the unemployment rate when it was

down and there were jobs created and that rate would take 12 years for us to get back to where we were before the crash. 12 years before today. and hopefully you will get jobs. >> i think everybody that lost their job in the financial crisis needs to go and hang out at his house and have them put that up. >> they can sue me. [inaudible] [laughter] >> so what do we do? what can we do if he wanted to bring some of morality it to the situation, what do you do? what can we do? >> what would they say, what with the hedge fund managers, what with bloomberg say? what is the value that they are bringing to the economy? >> chapter 2. you have to read the book. there is a whole cottage

industry of people that i call hedge fund cheerleaders who claim that what they do is as valuable as of silicon valley. but they are the defensive hedge funds. they take on the risks that nobody else wants and destabilize the economic system. how did that work for us in 2008? in other words, all the stuff about hedge funds in 2007 and in 2006, and they have a whole bunch of claims and this is one of them. they keep the crashes from happening. they make the whole system more flexible and make sure there is money when you want to buy a and sell stocks you can always do it. we go through each one of them in chapter 2 or three or whatever it is we go through each single one of them had died and you will find that the claims are based on wishful thinking.

really the only thing they care about, the only thing they care about is squeezing out some profit. anybody here invest money anywhere? okay. when you press the button to buy something, before that trade goes through, there are a group of hedge funds called high-frequency traders that by the stock faster than you do and sell it back for a few pennies more every single time. they are located right next to the wall street exchange from five to $20 billion a year doing that. now, tell me what good that does for you. that is the question. and i try to explore all of the questions in the book. believe me there are hundreds of arguments that they make on their behalf. when you push on then you realize they are in business for one reason only. they are going to make as much money as they can in any way they can and try not to get

caught >> if you want to make processing the american economy, you have to get a pledge of some kind of a economical responsibility and reinvest in the country. >> that is a good point. excellent point. there is in the harvard business review a psychologist a woman from ucla writes an article why she thinks hedge funds do what they do and she calls this cryogenic but basically the hedge fund encourages you to break the law in every which way you can. so there would have to be a change for the morality that you are talking about to take place, so the question is how do we get there. >> my question is why is it possible for them to do this

when we have companies or industries like the pharmaceutical industry's who sell drugs for inflated prices. and when the government finds out of the side effects and the fcc and all these other instruments coming into play bigot regulated and pumped down and get sideswiped the brands come out and so so forth. they can't make their brands of money and financial institutions. it's like to either role with them or you shut it all down. >> when we took -- you can understand how we got here again. 1929 was the stock market crash and we found out at that time that the wall street firms were more that believe to manipulating and inflating stock prices, doing all kind of stuff so we regulated the hell out of

them starting in the 1930's we put our foot on wall street and for the deals was the same. we made wall street a boring place to work. but then when we took our foot off in the mid 1970's and 1980's , this whole game started again. and basically the genie is out of the bottle. so the question becomes how do you put it back in? they are very strong now. one is given $100 million to central park and another is given $100 million to the public library in new york. how do you get the genie back in the bottle? >> and awareness days compared to what it should be. and then the american public would start fighting back. >> we had occupied wall street. there was a point that we were starting to say you know what maybe they should pay us back for the damage they did.

let me give you one simple. he didn't want to pay me over time a million and a half. [laughter] i started double time. okay. there is a thing called a financial transaction speculation tax and there's ten countries in europe that are doing this now which is a little tax on every single stock bond, funding instrument, financing, every time they are bought and sold. and if the tax were big enough i made one calculation. that is it could provide enough money could be generated to provide free tuition for every student in the country going to a public college or university. [applause]

so this is a big deal and they're scared to do it. it wipes out the trading because they are granted a few pennies. they are collecting a hidden tax so that is the big one. we could prohibit high-frequency training. there is a loophole. not only do they make all that money but the billionaires' $7 million an hour but they pay less taxes than you do so they have a special loophole called carrying interest with 15% and now 20%. we are talking about sequester and austerity and the tax loophole still makes it true. there is a good case you made that can limit the size of the hedge funds so we can't be so

big. none of this happened. nothing happened. no morality as you said is going to be brought in on less we do something about and of one day you may end up being readers in your community and it is going to be up to you. it won't change until you force it to change, and it starts with awareness and as you said it, but then we are going to have to make some demands and enforce it on both political parties. >> so we are all union members and it seems like this activity is against our best interest. what do you think? how much force should we use to change the situation and improve

our economy and improve the way that money is distributed in the united states. what do people think? >> how do you respond to that? the change it more in our favor. >> the branch of government is in charge. >> is that a system that can make them -- [inaudible] >> they can do whatever they want to do. they can buy companies, they can

buy bonds, they can buy vets. >> [inaudible] and get that through but when you buy a piece of real-estate how do you -- >> let me just make this one point. i don't think that there is any way that we can outplay them at their own game. i think it becomes a question. its political. it is the rules of the game that allow them to get drawn. they regulate they can't play the game and when you deregulating they can play the game. so it is a question of whether you want more regulation and how to get them. >> how to send letters in the

regulation it's just like all of the things that have fallen by the wayside. the unions and people standing together for and by the wayside because people are allowed to stand up for their own good disregarding the good of the people around them to protest. in france, for the simple they protested at the drop of a hat. they are going to change a couple of words in the law and 50,000 people will come out and protest against. over here it is under done. >> it takes people standing together getting on facebook and putting that out there to let them know that it's something you are interested in. ..

>> how did this, how did this get allowed to happen, and that started, like you said, through deregulation, and how did that happen? our government officials letting these things go into effect that allows them to get out of control. so maybe we should start focusing more on our government, putting things back into place that put them under control for so long? >>

>> very good point. >> young man over here? >> i think all the union members should have this, should read this book. because more people could understand the game than, you know -- >> from your lips to god's ears. [laughter] >> well, tonight there's going to be a conference call with governor cuomo who's supporting campaign public financing for all state government elections in new york state like we have in new york city. public financing of elections to limit the influence of real estate and wall street in elections. and that's actually something that we can directly get involved in as citizens of new york state, to help lead the way in the country to limit what juan was talking about, money in elections. >> let me make one observation here. let me put a couple things together. when that hedge fund guy came after me, it was an interesting

thing because it reflected something that i hadn't thought about before which is how could they be so touchy? what are they worried about? hey, if i just made a billion dollars on a deal and i didn't get prosecuted, why would i care what a two bit blogger says about me? i mean, you know, i'm not exactly in "the new york times" every week. what i realized was what they're worried about is a popular uproar against them. they're worried that something like occupy wall street's going to happen. because this happened before occupy wall street, when i wrote the article. they're worried that a bunch of people are going to go to the streets and demand their heads on a platter x. they're worried that that could really change things. they're more worried about change than we are about making it. i mean, they have more -- they're afraid that we can do more than we think we can do. so it makes me think that they're vulnerable. the other thing i just want you,

want to point out to you, i don't know if you remember this. before occupy wall street hit down the street here, the country was talking about austerity, and there was all this talk in washington about austerity. occupy wall street hits, the whole conversation changes to the 1%, the 99%, wall street. the whole conversation changed. as soon as occupy wall street disappeared, now we're talking about austerity again. so there's power. and it makes me think the next time something like occupy wall street happens, we better be there. because there's a lot of power there. how to build it, that's why you've got people like sandy around. she'll help us do that. go ahead. sorry. >> i just want to say something about voting. it's real important. and especially, like, not just like the big ones. like we have -- >> [inaudible] >> okay. not just -- >> turn around. there you go. there you go. >> okay.

not just the big presidential elections, but, you know, these congressmen who get elected in the two years in between who wall street lobbies to to back their little no fees for taxes on the money that they get, we need to not elect them. they're coming up for re-election. we need to not vote for them and vote for people who are going to take care of working people's interests and the other side, you know? the people who buy the homes and get ripped off by these banks and these companies. and we can do something empowered, we just need to do it. a lot of people want -- [applause]

>> i think what you were saying about the guy coming after you had -- the hedge fund manager? i think not that he was just afraid of an uproar and you turning into a million people, i think one thing that he did that most people on the other side are not doing is he's exercising his right. he has the right to come after you. he has a right. and he's using it. whether he's afraid or not, he's got money, he doesn't care. of but he wants to intimidate you by saying, you know what? i can do this, and i'm going to do it. >> got my attention. >> you know? if we all collectively got together as people and we did the same exact thing because we can, nobody can stop us from having a rally, you know? or any other function. you know?

at the end of the day, we can do whatever it is we need to do to make it happen. the problem with us, most of us, is either we don't have the information, we don't have the finance, or we're just afraid because we're going against a million dollar guy or billion dollar guy. >> good point. >> les, you mentioned the last time our country was at such an economic disparity was at the depression of 1929, right? >> before. >> right before the great depression which led to the new deal, government programs designed to create jobs and reform the financial sector and kick start the economy. based on the economy today, do you think we need, like, the new new deal? >> well, you know, i've been struggling with this question, which is why has the response been so different after in this crash compared to 1929?

because we've -- it's very disturbing. so after 1929 pretty much we jumped -- yes. >> i would say back then a lot more people paid attention to what happened around them, whereas now it can be very easily distracted with stuff that we have around us. i mean, just it's very easy to just also -- i feel like there's, you know, a lot more people that lie these days than back in the day. it was harder to get away with it back then than it is now. >> that's an interesting point. it could have been more severe back then because now we have unemployment insurance, medicare, medicaid, there's protection. >> right. >> we also live in a financial system where back then after the great depression you didn't have money, and you didn't have -- there was no way for you to get food. so it was a very real, you know, you were hungry, literally and

figuratively. but now we have a debt-based, you know, financial system where you're not -- even though we know that it's wrong, and we know at the end of the day everyone here can still get what they want, and you're procuring like, you know, make believe debt. no one's really hungry like they were back in the '30s and the '70s. >> definitely some truth to that. >> are we have time for one more question. >> i was just going to say to speaking to the debt-based society that it's government that's actually set the example for that. i mean, look at our deficit. and it is an illusion. we're basically living on this cloud of illusion, and i think maybe that's why it hasn't affected us the way it has in last centuries, because we have the delusion that everything's okay. you go home, your tv turns on, it's all good. you go to bed, you get up in the morning go, to work, and you can just use your credit card if you don't have cash handy.

but when it falls apart, what's going to happen then? unfortunately, until that falls apart, not much is going to be done about it. how many people don't have $20,000 debt in their back pocket? ah, whatever, you know? it's school debt, or i'll pay it off eventually. but it's there, and it's a fact that we're all living in debt. and until somebody says this is immoral, until one of those countries starts collecting against our government, i don't think much is going to be done about it. >> well, we should do another whole workshop on that. guess how much of the kind, guess how much of china -- of our whole debt, guess how much china owns? of our debt? >> 80? any other guesses? 8%. guess who owns most of our debt? we do. social security. anyway, let me end with this, this little note. the biggest difference between

the '30s and now, i think, was the upsearch of mobilizing -- upsurge of mobilizing from popular movements. points us in the same direct wend all be talking about, politicization, organizing. i want to thank you for this opportunity of. [applause] >> we'd like to hear from you. tweet us your feedback, twitter.com/booktv. >> here's a look at some books that are being published this week. in "keeping hope alive: one woman, 90,000 lives changes," dr. hawa abdi recounts her life in providing order to a group of 90,000 displaced citizens of somalia. david stockman, former reagan administration budget director, examines economic policies over the last 80 years in "the great deformation: the corruption of capitalism in america." in "the forgotten presidents:

they're untold constitutional legacy," michael gerhart, constitutional law professor at the university of north carolina, recounts 13 administrations and the constitutional battles they fought. tom diaz provides an analysis of the gun industry and presents his thoughts on the issue of gun control in "the last gun: how changes in the gun i have are killing americans and what it will take to stop it." in "front row seat: a photographic portrait of the presidency of george w. bush," eric draper presents a collection of his work. and barbara garson presents her thoughts on the current economic landscape in "down the up escalator: how the 99% live in the great recession." look for these titles in bookstores this coming week and watch for the authors in the near future on booktv and on booktv.org. >> you know, the election's over, and the president has been reelected, and the new congress has been sworn in, and we have,

basically, what we had before other than the fact we spent $4 billion to have a president be reelected, the senate remain in one party's hand and the house remain in the republicans' hands. we have, we have effectively gridlock. we have now, we have variations on these new terms like she -- sequester. and so last week in washington, they called the snow that never came the snowquester. we have things like the fiscal cliff that's related to the into find common ground on the budget. nothing in the election really changed that. because our beloved nation is divided, the direction we should take is undecided as well, and meanwhile, the power of compounding is not our friend. our recovery is the weakest it's been in modern times. our entitlement programs, everybody recognizes, are unsustainable, literally unsustainable and grow in magnitude without change.

our regulations are outdated, they're complex, they're costly, and they're certainly creating way too much uncertainty. our education system does not help enough young people gain the power of knowledge to be able to pursue their dreams as they see fit. our debt levels are way too high, and they're rising rather than declining. our tax policy has gotten way too complicated, and it punishes savings and success. and our social and economic mobility, something that used to define america, something that we've been proud of for legitimate reasons that irrespective of where you start if you work hard and play by the rules, you can achieve great things, that has diminished. be we, in fact, amongst the developed countries of the world, we are least, we're the least economically mobile now. our country has changed, and our political system -- which is so important for us to given to break through -- is not capable right yet, at least, of being able to solve these problems. >> are you interested in being a

part of booktv's new online book club? this month we're discussing "immigration wars: forging an american solution." jeb bush was recently on booktv presenting "immigration wars." you can watch that program online at booktv.org. as you read the book this month, post your thoughts on twitter with the hashtag btv bookclub, and write on our facebook page: facebook.com/booktv. then on april 30th at 9 p.m. eastern, join our live moderated discussion on both social media sites. have an idea for next month? send your suggestions on which books you think we should include via twitter, facebook or e-mail us. booktv@c-span.org. >> you're watching booktv on c-span2. here's our prime time lineup for tonight. starting at 7 p.m. eastern, kay goss takes a look at the life of the former democratic representative from