at 10:00 p.m. eastern on the weekly after words program neil three central bankers and world on fire. sits town with david of the "the wall street journal." and we conclude the prime time programming at 11 eastern with sam robertss. he talks about the history of grand central station in new york city. visit booktv.org for more on this weekend's television schedule. author david axe and illustrator

taunt the joseph kony to justice. has so far not been successful. this is about an hour. >> i'm david axe i want to start by making it clear it's a comic book we're talking about. a non-fiction. the term we use is graphic novel. it's not a novel. it's a non-fiction book in comics form. tends to throw a lot of people, but for many years now folks have been using comic books to do reporting. tim and i are not the first. but it's stale relatively small field. before i talk about the books specifically, i'm going to be brief because there are other folks and have a discussion i want to take you back about three years, so the 2009, 2010

time frame where i was had spent the previous five years reporting mostly from iraq and afghanistan in a smattering of other conflict zones, but the sort of dominant theme of my reporting looking at it as an american writing for an american audience, the dominant theme is what behad done or wrong or screwing things up. the iraq war obviously began with a lies and mistakes of epic proportion. and besides being launched on a false premise was conducted badly. so in iraqi recorded on -- reported on the training of iraqi security forces, which was also going badly. reconstruction of iraq, which was going badly, manipulation and suppression of the press by iraq and by u.s. forces.

which is also bad. thank you. and among other wows in iraq. happening over to afghanistan the story was much the same. the war was launched under different circumstances, but in 2009, 2010 appeared to be going very badly it as it continues to go rather badly. so looking at the world of conflict from the u.s. perspective for my american audience, it was hard to avoid becoming cynical and asking what are we doing and why do we do it badly? is there another way to the use of armed force in the world within other places to use it in ways that wouldn't depress me so much. i began to look around the world

at some of the conflict zones i was vaguely familiar with, i was interested in congo for congo's sake the drc, i'm talking about the democratic republican of congo. it's a battle ground of overlapping conflict there are multiple groups and armed groups and problems for the nato security forces. all of it bundled up in an ongoing humanitarian crisis that affects tens of millions of people. but congo also very quietly and in 2010 was appearing to shape up to be a future battle ground for the united states we had a small number of troops working in the drc to improve the human rights record. training education exercises things like that.

and medical outreach i accompanied a team of national army guardsmen that went in there late 2010 to set up a health clinic and deliver medical aid to every day congo people as a way of winning hearts and minds. sort of preparing the battle space, the term the military likes to use, in a sense for a wider intervention which was coming. there was momentum building for a more direct u.s. role in one of congo's most severe conflict. that would be the fighting surrounding the lords' resistance army which is originally a uganda rebel group that fled to congo and hiding out in northern congo and neighboring countries and survived by rape and pillage. we're going talk about the group where they came from and what can be done about them.

suffice to say flee years ago they were a huge problem as they are today. the united states among other actors was working up the motivation laying the plans, gathering the resource to do something about it. that would come about a year after my trip to drc to do my basic reporting when president obama announced that 100 special operation military forces would go to the drc and neighboring countries to work directly with native armies to hopefully destroy the lord's resistance army. but when i was there, three years ago, that announcement had yet to come. and the ingredients that intervention were still bubbling in the pot. so i looked at it, it was an unmade thing. i asked myself could this be a new it's not necessarily a new

way of warm. there are plenty of armed interventions and humanitarian reasons. could it represent a kind of military strategy not the right word. but a grand strategy? an answer to the question what is america's role in the world? post iraq, post afghanistan. could we leave a decade of bad war behind us and fight good wars? now there's going to be lots of caf yet to that -- caveat to the question. is u.s. military intervention in africa can it be a good war? the practical questions are myriad. we'll get to those. but i looked at the congo, the potential for u.s. intervention in congo as an opportunity to fight for something that at least i personally could belief in to destroy a band of murders and rapists who have no political constituency, and who

exist to survive and the means of sur viewfl are the -- survival with the worst possible things you imagine. army of god is an attempt on my part to understand congo in the whole region. the lra, the conflict, and the escalading efforts to intervene by foreign countries especially the united states. and i hope that it answers that broader question is there a better way for the united states to be involved in the world in an armed sense? as a military power? with that i'm going turn it over to tim. i should have shown you art before tim got up here. tim will show you some of the art he did for the book we'll talk about this in more detail

and explain to you how a work of reporting can be converted in to a comic book. so tim? >> good evening, everybody. i'm just going to switch slide shows real quick. i'm going to talk briefly. i'm sorry -- [inaudible] i'm kibbled of kind of the -- i'm kind of the odd man out. you're here to hear about the lra unlike david i didn't go to the congo. i was in brooklyn. [laughter] and that's where i did all of my work. and i worked from photographs david sent me, which really

enough reference even for me to draw a book that was, i think 80 pages is it now? so i had to go on google and look up pictures about the congo and the research for the book isn't what i would call fun. i looked for mad magazine for marvel comics and i recently write -- my own children book and they are enjoyable. through the research i had do myself. horrible things which made me realize that it must be very hard to see this everyday of your life. but i'm going talk briefly about howdy the art work. i usually do the whole book like this, very small, probably this big. i do every page of the book. in thumbnail form. david wrote a script for me.

i guess david -- he had written one graphic novel before. yeah. and if there was any problems we talked about it story telling. a lot of stuff that goes in to making a comic book. these are more thumbnail. i had to draw a lot of real life people. i don't know if you can name the people. david can. and do a lot of portrait of people who are not fun people. so as i said. i'm talking briefly here. i guess we're going have a question and answer. unless -- [inaudible conversations] maybe for a little more insight

in to how it works. the mechanics of drawing a comic book the are the same whether you're doing a non-fiction or fiction or whatever. you have to produce a script. it looks a lot like a screen play or a stage play. so the writer will produce the script in my case based on actual reporting and research and hand it over to an artist who has interpret that script. so imagine that what i did first was i wrote a long magazine article and instead of publishing it i gave it to tim and tim broke the magazine article to 100 pages of art work. so there's really there are two reporters on this thing. because without his drawing there's nothing there, so he had to take the facts i gave him and ground those in a sense of reality. so his art work is reported in the sense it's based on research as well.

so collaborative non-fiction graphic journalingism. yeah. >> and either fortunately or unfortunately on google i can look up david wrote even though he didn't take pictures of everything that happened to him in the congo. shelly? >> shelly. -- [inaudible] okay. can everybody hear me? great. as you've heard, and i am very pleased to be here tonight. human rights watch has done a great deal of work on the lia, as you will see. if you read david and his book. as examples of our work upstairs actually. you can see it on your way upstairs. we have researchers based in

both places and done extensive reporting on the ground an advocacy with policy makers in con go and internationally. i think the lra is one of the hardest issues we write about. and work on. our researchers will say the lra atrocity are among the worst they have seen. some are apparent when you read the material and look at the documents with the materials we have published. maybe more happifully we have done a great deal of work on the ground with civil society and churchers and humanitarian groups. trying to make sure their voices are heard. some of the documents include submission by coalition of local group saying this is what we want. and one of the things that

groups wanted was more attention and more intervention. although various kinds of intervention. we could talk about that. i think to some extend we have been successful. i might say, i mean, the broad coalition of groups working worldwide on the lord resistance army which has been a long time problem in northern uganda and then in congo and actually in the central african republican. this is a hard issue to work on. i give them a great deal of credit for the bravery in doing it. i'm going it ask them a series of questions and open up the floor for questions and we'll ask that you speak in to the microphone which will be circulating. first i'm going to ask them a few questions before i turn to the audience. so one of the questions i was going to ask you which i think you answered is translating reporting in to a graifng

novel. graphic novel i realize is not the correct terminology and collaborative non-fiction graphic journalism? >> graphic novel or comic book. >> do you feel like comic book is somehow trivialize the gravity of the work you have done? do you feel like that's a good way to describe it? >> that's an arguement that publishers are having. [laughter] the long and boring one. [laughter] i know about the argument, but comic book tends to make people say -- depending on how who you are or super hero and graffic novel are usual lay longer piece of work we just did. it's kind of a different if you go to the bookstore and buy agraphic novel. it's one large piece of work. >> if you stack enough on top of each other you gate graphic novel. the terminology is loose and bad.

and the reputation of comics in the wide audience is not great. the question of when you can do serious things with a comic book got answered a long time ago. that didn't get answered for everybody. got answered just for folks who are sort of already involved in the medium. so i think every year we make a little bit of progress in convincing people that a comic book can be more than super heroes or comedy. it's still an uphill battle. you are dealing with more than 100 years of tradition not overcome necessarily. that's the context you work in. >> were you inspired by particular artists and writers in doing this? >> myself when i work on a project i work on every one differently. we had -- i'm not a favor of the

way -- [inaudible] as a pertaining to a serious subject. if you have seen a comic you know there are exaggerated. which is fine for that. and i thought this material -- >> i was inspired we two people it was a long time ago when i first got in to doing conflict reporting i was browsing in a bookstore one day and came across a book called to afghanistan and back by a guy named ted who was reporting the village voice writing essay and cartoon. he decided to combine theme, flu off to afghanistan during the innovation in 2001. and wrote about it and did a comic and shoved it all together to a chaotic and brilliant package and produce what he called an instant graphic

novel. i picked it up and my life changed in an instant reading of the book. i decided i wanted to do a similar thing. here we are three or four books later. >> did you have particular audience in mind? was there somebody -- there was a grouch people you wanted to reach out to with the -- book? >>. >> i don't know if david had anyone in mind. i guess books like this even they are for everybody they end up in libraries a lot. i thought it was great to do a book like this. not to just say it's for kids in high school. i've done a lot of talk and i did fahrenheit and a lot of kids are excited about reading the graphic novel who didn't want to read the novel. i have mixed feeling about. i like novel and graphic. >> we have a question already. >> i'll take the question.

>> and you're -- [inaudible] >> sir, can we get you in one second? >> one second. i want to answer her question which i think is a terrible pitfall. i couch completely wrong here. our publicist is here too. i don't think about audience. i think if -- it's such a shapeless evolving thing that if you try to write two specifically for some imaginary audience you're really just writing for yourself. go ahead and admit it. so i don't try to think too hard about audience. i write stores that are compelling for me and i try do the material justice. >> i'm going ask one more question and open up to the floor. you, david, said you were interested in positive uses of u.s. military force, and i'm wondering whether you feel like you found that with the lra in congo? for those of you , i mean, when

you read the book. you'll see the u.s. becomes involved in the question. the u.n. is already involved to some extent. there are efforts to get some involved. joseph kony is still at large. commanding a force of some 100 people, let's say. many of them who may have been forcibly recruited in to his army. and who survived basically on the basis of killing and rape and pillage and wreaking havoc on the local population who does not want him there. or do not want him there. and moving in very remote zones that are very hard to get to where there are very few roads and you can't take cars very easily. and our researchers go on motor bike for three hours to get there. and, you know, the u.n. might say it's too remote it can't get there. they kind of lurk in the

northern congo that was a whrong way of asking do you feel like the various efforts you did see undertake manifested themselves in something good you feel proud of which is sounds like you want order did you come back feeling disappointed and why? >> well, first of all, my trip to congo took place before the expansion of the u.s. involvement in congo which occurred in late 2011. so there were some americans on the ground but not too many. it was too early for me to be disappointed but where i stand now i still desperately want this to help, first of all. i want us to pull this off without too many innocent people getting hurt. that always happens. there's specific example of the way the lra reacts to foreign intervention that can make the

problem worse. >> right. >> i'm aware of the pitfall and aware of america's history of armed humanitarian intervention aka somalia. i know it can go badly. i've once interviewed a 6-year-old girl with no skin because she was bombed by americans. innocent bystander in supposedly well intended intervention. i know, this can be go badly. but i believe the it sounds naive or silly or simplistic. i believe armed force can be used for good. the question is what are the causes? how do we use it? what are the constraints we should impose? i want the congo intervention or the regional intervention really at this point. to be an example of good intervention. i'm probably going to be proved

wrong. i mean, we haven't caught kony. the lra is still there. the statistics are sort of influx. we don't know if they are less or more active. it could go nowhere and waste a lot of money. and irritate a lot of people. >> clarify that joseph kony and two others are wanted the international criminal court for crimes against humidity. and there have been efforts in the past to arrest him or apprehend him or maybe worse. or more lethal. and they have not succeeded. and there has occasionally been humanitarian and political consequences of these operations not succeeding. so succeeding in the kind of terrain is very complicated. and there are all kinds of legal questions about how you do it. >> i believe it's worth trying. what is frustrating for me is observe the vast scale and fist

indication of intense of something like the iraq war. if you are completely amoral and can view it as a machine is was astounding. and it's sophistication and almost beauty in the way these, you know, technology and the people and the training and the strategy came together for a completely wrong headed idea. i mean, we invested all of that money and all of those lives american and iraq key and others in a war that made the world less safe. it vexed me that we would not at least early in the war question too much the wisdom and the cost effectivenesses of fighting that war and the idea of sending 100 american advisers to the congo has fair amount of happened ringing. when it's a grounding error in the pentagon, budget.

one thing david is saying aside from the politics of the iraq war which a lot of people question it was hard to get this on the radar of the u.s. administration for a long time. there were so many other competing priority and chris subpoena for better or worse, i don't know which it is. sometimes african issues don't get the level that they might if they were taking place somewhere else. >> there a lot of black people in africa. i think i'm going call on the gentleman patient in the back. i'm surprised. but i would substitute -- [inaudible]

[inaudible] in pakistan we have a war and it's coming in persian gulf. and of course i do not feel that this is leads to too much hypocrisy about this or you said this lady said about -- [inaudible] how bad this joseph kony's army. [inaudible] and [inaudible] because u.s. was opposite of this. maybe they projected in future -- sorry, sorry.

one moment. this is my question. >> actually, sir. do you have a question? i'm not sure i'm following you. >> i think i follow. >> hypocrisy first why is comics -- [inaudible] this is very serious problem madam. >> i see what you're saying. why don't we let david answer that. it. >> direct -- [inaudible] describing -- [inaudible] et, et. cetera. >> i think you have two questions. right? one this is a serious subject and we completely agree. why do it in a comic book form? >> yeah. well of course u.s. you think will be not to do nothing. and -- i'll try to answer that. >> i'm sure in 150 -- [inaudible] >> so first of all, we understand it's a serious subject. our position is that a comic book can treat a serious subject. it's been done many times the before. we're not the first nor the best. but the second question is a

good point. you're saying does the united have the moral authority to intervene anywhere on humanitarian grounds. right that's your point because of -- [inaudible] indian. so you're saying the united it lacks the moral authority to intervene on a basis. and you're right in the sense that the united states has committed war crimes in the past. well always but the past decade and a half in particular in iraq and afghanistan. who was worse? apples and oranges. but what you're asking is we have a moral authority to intervene. i would say that we must and that's how we reclaim the moral authority is to intervene in places where we can. where people want us to. this is not an innovation of the

drc. u.s. troops are in congo alongside the u.n. at the invitation from the continue let's government. it's not the faux invitation that baghdad extended united states after the innovation. congress go needs the help defeated the armed threat. the way the united states can reclaim the moral authority as the world's leading military power is to use it wisely. and for the right reasons. we shouldn't because we have sinned. we should not -- cease doing good. united states has done wrong. this is how question make up for it. >> okay. i understand your point. that's a good one. thank you, sir. >> i wanted to add two words and just to say that up until now most recently it's been u began data troops that have been trying to apprehend kony and received u.s. backing.

it's important to say that u began data troops -- but the u.s. is relied upon them to hunt kony down and that is seen by some people as being problematic. the other thing i want to say is that the kinds of interventions that we're looking at first of all there are hundred u.s. military advisers. they are training them. there's also the kinds of intervention that we've been talking about in term of civilian protection, communication and also helping with the mobilization of people who want to come out of the lra or manage too come out by escaping which is a dangerous thing to do. with that i think i saw some hands. i will -- yes, sir. >> thank you. how did the whole thing get started? in other words, what you've got you said 100 that's not much an army. >> it was bigger. >> it's a band of crooks which

is going around killing and -- [inaudible] >> yes. >> and how did they get started? why if you call it army of god? >> two questions, very good. thank you. the first one, the lra it's been around for thirty years. it was originally part of the uganda there was civil conflict in you began basically between north and south have and have not. the lra fought for the north. that's gross oversimplefully indication of the issue. but correct me if i'm wrong. but they -- it was this strange vicious, weirdly voodoo christian group that quickly alienated the people it was fighting for. and got booted more or less or out of congo or out of u began data and began a wandering trek

through the region settling eventually in the drc. they -- we don't know how many lra there are. nor do we have a good definition of lra. the la has a corp. of adult leaders. some of whom are former enclaved children enclaved by the lra and serve it. the rest of the lras largely made up of a rotating cast of unwilling people who are cohearsed or brainwash is a loaded term. brainwashed to varying degrees. they will sweep in to a town and murder people to get what they want. take the boys and girls, use the boys for labor, give the boys guns and machete and make them kill to make them psychologically wounded and make them need the group. and the women are sex slaves. they call them lra brides is the

commonly call them. and so these people don't -- the kids don't want to be there until they've been there long enough then asking what they want is like asking what a cat or a dog or squirrel or a rat wants. they don't understand what they want. a lot of kids try to escape. and they escape and they need help to be rehabilitated and brought it in to some sort of community. do they count adds lra? how many are there? if you ask the residences of congo, a town surrounded or has been surrounded by lra cho who is an lra they'll point to people in the town. she was with them for two years. that boy killed a man. he was in the lra now he's rehabilitated by the catholic church. he's an lra. how many of them are there? nobody knows. probably a few hundred. there was many more. the small size of the group, the lie -- belies their direction.

northern congo, half of congo, everything not -- basicfully in the west is forest, a largely virgin forest the size of western europe with a road. south carolina where i'm from has way more paved roads than all of congo and it's fifty times bigger. very remote. very heavily populated. there's 70 million people living there. the armed group is sort of the entire eastern congo fair game for the lra and other groups for the lra in particular. they can cause far more devastation than you think they can cause. one of the worst problems is the displacement. even the rumor of there being a single lra in the forest, which is almost never true. can force people leave their homes. where do they wind up? they are either live in the forest, they will settle in another community where they have no work.

they have no support. they'll wind up in a camp in congo or another country. cared for by the u.n. or other agencies. it has a ripple effect. congo will never develop the govern mans if it can't have a measure of security and can't have a measure of security when there are 100 very dangerous people or 200 or fifty running around in this ungoverned space terrorizing people. it's the reason i believe this can be an example of good intervention because if you eliminating the existing lra leadership you eliminate the group. if they can't recruit they cease to exist. it's not an insurgency. it's not native continue let's rising up. they do it. there are groups fighting for the cause. the lra is not one of them. they are a group of criminals. they are murders.

but war criminals. they are we need a new word for what they are. if you eliminate. they go away. >> i see questions. i don't think you answer why army of god. >> i didn't choose the title. i guess it's provocative title. people wonder about -- i thought i would add that i was away when my agent sent me the money i got for the book. i had him wire me the money rather than san diego check, and the department of homeland security seize the the money because of the tight of the "army of god." >> it was a domestic terrorist group called army of god. >> yeah. i did find that out lair. "army of god" so the government has me on a watch list, i guess. >> did you get your money? >> a month later i got my money. there was no explanation. >> we call the army much god.

it references both the lra, which claims to have some sort of devine foundation. it's very strange and fascinating little consult with some, you know, trappings of chris began any it in -- christianity. we are sort of playing on their self-given title. but also in the book i literally write this in the book the real army of god is the people who are fighting the lra and the people who don't fight at all who just live peacefully. that's the true army of god. >> yes? -- and was a about to -- [inaudible] in return for amnesty and the government was ready to and

couldn't be done. now it's greating more havoc. what is the solution to this -- [inaudible] to you free him and -- [inaudible] the answer is captured and sent to the icc to stand trial. i'm a south carolinan. i prefer he be killed. [laughter] the question -- i'm not kidding. the question of -- no. i think she's raising an interesting question about the role of the human rights movement in this as well. there was a big debate in in particular what to do with him and offer him. and there was even a sort of difference of opinion between local on the ground who say they wanted to give him forgiveness and human rights group said you're creating a recipe for more violence. if you don't stop the violence

and harm end people and send them toy account for the crimes. you'll see more people commit crimes. it should serve as an example what happened when you are a mass murder. it's a wrenching decision. it was a very painful episode. i can see both sides. i think he escaped for oh oh reasons. it's a good question. i'm a professor here for the u.n. meetings this week and last week on the right of women. i would like to ask and the pattern of this kind of organized rape and pillage, as you said earlier and the --

[inaudible] i bought two copies to take back. my question is in doing the work that you have and seeing what you have seen, and the immunity has become such a strong question raced by this. what have you seen works. as awfuls a it is what is happening what have we learned from this? what can we change? what is coming together in a way

we have never had to organize in responses? and i just -- very welcoming of any comments. >> we both tackle this. i'll start by saying background to the ladies' question. there's an epidemic of sexual violence not just in the drc, not just in central africa, not just in africa. but all over the world there's an epidemic of sexual violence. aka rape. and it's the rape of men and women old and middle aged boys and girls, babies. i mean, it's the whole spectrum. the role it plays in conflict in the rc and congo. rape is a weapon. it's a way of destroying the fabric of a community to make them vulnerable. and a vulnerable community

cannot fight back. i'll give you some oversimplified example. there are lot of communities in the region that have mobilized themselves to defend themselves against the lra. it's fascinating. they will make homemade shotgun out of scrap metal and patrol or bows and arrow and patrol the forest to secure their village. they call them arrow boys. and communities if they can work together, if they support each other, if they have that spirit can fight back. even without foreign intervention. it you don't have the intangible ties the community individuals on their own are vulnerable. are powerless. the way you destroy the ties are by creating. you create the for prejudice and

rejection and the sexual stigma afached to victims of rh is a great way to do that. it's not the only society you think this way. if you are raped it's your fault. that's oversimplifying. the victim of rape is a sealed within his or her community. and breaks up that viber that behinds that community. the most powerful interview i conducted for the book and all over the book. tim did a great job drawing it was a girl captured by the lra raped. and being rehabilitated in utterly rejected by the community she was returned to. and her life is bleak. she's an example of what happens to an community when people are raped bit armed group. it destroys a community and makes a community vulnerable. happens. we don't know the number or

howrch it happens. it's not just the lra. it's every armed group and the military and the uganda and everyone except i'm going venture the united states has not yet joined the epidemic of sexual violence. >> sexual violence within the u.s. military. >> exactly. >> so maybe i can also add a i did mention to your question. i mean, this is a obviously a very endemic issue and prevalent and hard to deal with. i have seen things on ground that work. i met women who literally go to community and rescue other women and take them home. give them shelter and a space to talk. the need for rehabilitaion is great. the need for housing and shelter and food and substance and work and agency is great. there are congolese in this case who do this and incredibly brave for the work they do. these women have i think grown in reputation have been

recognized and honored. i hope there's many more of them. that would be one thing. i think the rehabilitaion on education are incredibly important to show that these women are productive member of society and need to be reintergrated which means that conversation need to be had with the communities they come from. and from the men in the community in particular. it's important to demonstrate that people who commit sexual violence will be held to account for their crimes. there are glimmers of hope that it's happening in congo to some extend through a variety of means and mechanism. but that said, there's -- including by the congolese army. >> i want to ask tim a question, actually. when you are presented with the material where we are sort of

talking about rape victims how do you draw that? >> well -- i guess it didn't really -- expolice ilt depiction of it. i didn't want to explicitly depict that. i think there's a fine line between telling a story and being -- >> gratuitous. that's why i think the style is very representational rather than superrealistic. i thought super realistic many of the things in the book. >> i didn't know that. >> good for you. >> that explains it. there's places in the book where the art shifts to almost and impressionistic tile. you did that to pull away from the violence. >> yeah. >> nice. >> interesting.

there's more question i see some students have their hands up. imped, alex. my question you were talking about how you see an intervention in congo and a chance for, you know, the -- the role is like whatever military force. i was wondering what specific role you envisioned for the pus stop you see it -- for the u.s. do you see it purely as -- [inaudible] send in a squad to go after the lra. do you think there should be more wide security sector and capacity building. that would require . >> yes. >> a lot more and more money and troops. and a much more significant extended. >> right. okay. >> kind of talking about going and getting them. >> absolutely. i'll answer that question from the top down. we need a grand strategy. the u.s. people are obviously a part of this conversation.

but our leaders need think about and state in simple terms what is the american what is the role of america in the world america as a military power? because that's hard to get a short answer to that question. that question needs to be answered in light of the previous fifteen years of military screwup. so it starts with we are all need to answer that question what should our role be? my argument is that we need to prioritize humanitarian interventions and maybe have fewer pointless massive ground war in asia because even with sequestration and budget cuts and postwar draw down. the amount of resources we are sort of comfortable spending comfortable with spending on our military -- it's as much as the

next twenty five countries combined. let's do something with that good with that. something that will make the world a better place. you want specifics? we should take it case by case basis. the lra is a great example of what should be in fairly easy intervention. the lra doesn't have a political constituent sei. if you fight the lra you aren't fighting fifty million people. if you invade afghanistan even if you're fighting, you know, a small number of taliban. a lot of those dudes from afghanistan. they have families, they have interests, and you when you start killing afghans, who are kind of fighting for their own country's freedom and integrity then you motivate other afghans to fight. if you wipe out the lra i guarantee you're not going motivate other congolese to adapt some view do christiany

and murder people. there's going to be plenty of fighting and violence. the lr as a specific phenomena can be eliminated. it country have a constituency. that's an easy intervention. you have to be skeptical. i'm not being skeptical. let's pick syria. who are we intervening for? >> yes, sir. ged, alex. >> i want to clarify. i wasn't talking about general. i meant within the drc. do you think there should be greater security sector. the lra is a small segment. it's an epidemic and protect the civilians is which a manner priority my question is -- right. how extensive is the security reform you would have to do full on security sector. and you would need a million american troops in congo. where do you draw the line?

a u.s. lead or whatever it would be extra size as one thing. there are issues in congo that to promote security sector reform is an enormous and time consuming and political challenging undertaking. you asked a good question. i think it's something that a lot of us talk about. but something that we can only make incremental gain us because it's an enormous top i think. we are doing that in the drc. the united states. >> okay.

sk tear clinton talked about and even before the hundred special forces announced by obama two years ago there are small number of troop in the u.s. working for the stand up what called model battalion of the congolese army to rebuild the army from the ground up on a small scale. as an example how it exists and the army without raping people. why do we draw the line? i don't know. that's why i should never be president. >> i saw hands from people. go ahead. i'm happy to announce that some of my former and current students are here. >> you tend to distribute the books throughout congo so that people they have an understanding behalf is going on? or would that be destroyed by fellow -- would it be permitted

in the country? >> i don't think the lra does a lot of book burning. that's not up to me, actually. that's publisher. would i like congolese people to read it. sure. i imagine a lot of them have a better perspective a greater understanding of this than we do. i kind of wrote it as an outsider for outsiders to get a first glimpse an initial glimpse at the conflict. but that's a good question. >> okay. i see hand in the back, please. >> thank you. and thanks to the throw of -- three of you. it's. sightful. i have a question about the medium. earlier you were explaining, david, you wrote a long magazine article. you handed tim a script. -- [inaudible] >> if i did, i did that as

well. i had to pay the bills. i still do freelance writing even because i made literally dozen of dollars on the graphic novels. [laughter] i'm joking. but not really. [laughter] the that's a passion the graphic novels are a passion. >> first online copy before it was published on a website. cartoon website, yeah. and you had an editor there. >> yeah. matt morris. >> but yeah. i had to do a lot of sort of daily journalism along the way. but was i confidence that it was going to be? well until tim came along, no. getting someone to draw if it was difficult. it's tricky subject matter. it was a lot of art for an, you know, none of us have a lot of money to throw around. nobody was getting rich off this. i would like to ask you a question i haven't asked before. why can you do this? [laughter] >> i did this because i worked

for a series of magazines of groups and i get -- i don't this to sound trite i get bored easily. i didn't do this because i was bored because it's important subject. but i write and illustrate children's books now. i do cartoons. i have become bored doing the same subject day in and day out. being a freelance artist allows you to do a lot of different typings of projects. and cartoon movement where it was first published on a website they somehow got money to pay us. me. the dutch government. >> yeah. >> in fact before i can -- i did this book, it could have been a half year before i did the book, i think my agent or somebody contacted me wondering if i wanted to illustrate the biography of rush limbaugh. [laughter] and i honestly answered them

even though i looked work on project i don't think i could spend six months researching rush limbaugh or drawing him. >> the lra is much easier. >> yeah. i don't know how we are doing on time. maybe a couple of more questions. are there anymore questions? yes. i'm wondering about the use of word novel to describe this. >> i'm sorry can you start from the beginning your mic -- [inaudible] >> why do we use the word noel. it's the industry term. >> it seem like fiction. >> it's the industry term. >> does it take away from the graphty of the subject? -- gravity of the subject. >> that was my first question. some people think so. but -- [inaudible]

doesn't bother me. it's a relatively new term i guess bothers some people. graphic novel, again, it sounds better than comic book. that's where the argument stands right now. of people have heated arguments about that. i can't spend our time here tonight arguing about whether to call it a graphic novel or comic. >> it might turn off some people. it wasn't really our choice. [inaudible] which is why we have to emphasize whenever we get an opportunity it's a non-fiction graphic novel. it's not a novel at all. >> i was wondering for you could consider graphic documentary or graph i think journal? >> graphic journal. i like that. >> yeah. >> because along with journalism. >> but see, we are just two dudes. we don't really pick the language. >> reinvent it. >> everybody calls them graphic

novel. what are we going to do? it has to go in a certain section of the took store. >> it occurred to me to tell that you human rights watch premiered an interesting film that i think is loosely premisessed on the lra called "war witch." it was nominated but didn't win. it was an incredibly gripping and powful film. for those interested in the lra, it doesn't specific lip identify the lra, but it is so life-like and so, i mean, for me i don't know if you saw it. it reminded me so much of the lra. materials i have read i think you would find that incredibly powerful. i mean, maybe i'll take the liberty of asking one final question before we wrap up and go upstairs for the reception. and the question is, you do reference in the book kony 2012, the online movement to galvanize

attention to the kony lra phenomena and call for his arrest among other measures. it received tens of mills of -- millions of hits online and i would was both appreciated for how widely it got the word out especially among young audiences but also how it may have simplified the issue or not fully portrayed the complexity of the issue and so i was wondering in term of the publication and advocacy what did you think of that effort? ..

well meaning and basically my attitude is anything that gets a lot of people who are otherwise distracted to pay any attention whatsoever to this problem is a good thing. of course it shouldn't be a fantasy. these guys were making stuff up that would be problematic but they are not. so go ahead and criticize him all you want but these guys with their videos reach more people and got more people to care

about the lra in the congolese people than any other reporter or human rights advocates in the world. and it's not -- they did it up good and so good for them. i can't criticize them. >> thank you both. it was really nice talking to you. >> thanks a lot. now from a recent trip to mesa arizona off -- author gary stuart delves into the 1991 case of a mass killing of a group of monks outside of phoenix and the subsequent interrogations and confessions of the suspects. this program does contain images that some may find offensive.

>> investigators move the bodies of the nine victims they had no idea who murdered them. can you tell us how they were killed? >> appears there were all gunshot wounds? >> was at execution style? >> will reserve comment on that at this point. >> one woman and one teenager was found dead this morning. when she went to the temple -- [inaudible] authorities don't know how many people were involved in the massacre. detectives say whoever did this walked into the temple but no money from a prayer save in the prayer room. the temple has been here for three years. worshipers claim the monks spent most of the time praying alone. >> the monks are everybody's friend. >> investigators have --

>> there was a massacre at a buddhist temple in a monastery on the west side of phoenix. nine people were killed, executed actually. i use that term on purpose because the way that they were killed was clearly an execution style killing. it took more than 20 minutes to complete, start to finish. it's something that everybody remembers. how long it took and how difficult it must have been not just for the victims but difficult to accomplish this. one of the temple workers came to the temple at about 10:00 in the morning. she and her friend a friend of hers, their job was to fix lunch for them monks and they did it almost every day. when they came in, they thought, they came in the same door and

they thought that the monks were asleep. but what disturbed this lady the most was a nun who was lying on the floor with him and that's absolutely taboo. it couldn't take place with something that was so astounding to her that she started screaming that she didn't know why. the other lady saw the blood and there was a massive pool of blood because it's spread but it didn't spread far because it was blocked by the bodies. they both turned around and they ran out to try to call from their and they ran to the closest neighbor's house. the neighbor dialed 911 for them and these were young women. she was in her late 20s. she said the 911 officer, they'll died in the same place,

all died in the same place. and she went into, began crying and became quite hysterical after getting that first scene. it was exactly 30 days before they had a viable suspect of any kind. what makes that a startling fact is this was not a low-level -- they created a task force of officers from different agenciee agencies at the departmendepartmen t of public safety for arizona in the city of phoenix police department and many others. but notwithstanding that enormous effort 30 days went by with lots of interviews and tens of thousands of fingerprints tracings taken from the crime scene, blood evidence and forensic evidence of all different kinds but they had no suspects 30 days later up until september 10, 1991.

so they got two calls in the same day within an hour apart. the first call was identified on the call leaf book which is a large book. this was lead number 510. that call came from luke air force base security officer who had just been informed that morning that the sheriff's office in maricopa county was looking for a 22 caliber rifle in connection with the shooting. fortunately by mistake, they went out to all the police agencies in the state except luke air force base which was the closest one. but because it's an air force base, they just weren't on the list so they didn't know that the sheriff's office was looking for a 22 caliber rifle. what that security officer told

the sheriff's deputy that he talked to they had picked up two young kids, high school kids on base driving around on base with a 22 caliber rifle in the backseat. and they stop the kids and interview the kids and took the gun away. that was the first call. their names were alex garcia and jonathan doogie. so what happens with just a clay at that point was that a sheriff's deputy went out to luke air force base and talked to the person they earlier talked to on the phone and got a copy of their report and realize that the gun had been given back to these boys and so he then had the addresses of those boys in both lived within a mile of the temple. they both went to high school in the small town close to that, and he found one of the two boys

it was the one i have a gun, the 22 rifle. he asked the boy if he knew about the murders and he said no, he didn't hear the asked him if he had a 22 rifle and he said i do but it's not mine. i borrowed it. the deputy asked if he could take the rifle for testing testd the boy said sure. so that officer then and this sheriff's deputy left their and went back downtown where the sheriff's office had its main office and announced that he had the murder weapon. it was a jocular kind of thing but he made that announcement and it was immediately told by the lead detective that all of that would be on hold for a little bit because we got a second call. lead number 511 had come in within an hour from the time he left and lead number 511 was a police officer from tucson from

the tucson police department. it's 140 miles away from phoenix and away from luke air force base. and he said that they had a john doe an anonymous caller colin a few minutes earlier and said that he knew who killed those monks of their. so he was going to have another conversation with him but he wanted to call in and make sure the sheriff's office knew about this. that was the second lead so they have these two leads, 510 and 511. meanwhile, they got the officers traveling at high. >> all the way from phoenix to tucson to talk to the person who called in on the 511. the man in tuscon told the tucson police department that his name was john which he admitted was an alias. later in a second conversation he told them his name was kelsey and then he told them it was lawrence and much later, hours

later, he told them it was lawrence. by then the two officers in the two deputies from phoenix had arrived in tucson and were somewhat surprised to go to the address which was the tucson psychiatric institute, a mental hospital in tucson. the caller was a patient at the hospital. he worked there and he was a patient and he was there the cause of relatively serious mental problems. they interviewed him in the presence of one of the hospital nurses and he told them that he and four of his friends, the first story, four, had done these crimes and he offered to tell them in whatever detail they wanted to know whatever it was they wanted to know. they asked him if he wouldn't mind writing back to phoenix in the car with them and he wanted

to know if they were going to turn the lights and siren on. they said they weren't sure about that but they told him that they might and he said fine let's go. so they got back to phoenix pretty close to midnight that night. it was a tuesday night, september the tenth was a tuesday. from midnight through the next morning about 8:00, they learned a couple of things. finally, in the wee hours of the morning one or 2:00 a.m. they learned that, the officers went who were interrogating him at this point, he didn't exist. lawrence kelly, kelsey. he finally admitted his name was mike mcgraw. so now laid into his first transcript they are calling him mike mcgraw and he identified over the next six or seven hours

on tape, audiotape, all of its clear on the tape, he identified two different cars, six different guns, eight different people, multiple motives and multiple fabricated places where they went. none of which was true. the names of the boys were true. they were all friends of his. they lived in the same area, the same part of tucson in an area called south park. but none of them -- only one of them had ever been there before but identified all of them. so they asked him if he would mind going back down to tucson with them. and taking the officers and other officers. now they get the swat team together and go to the houses that these other boys lived in. they weren't boys.

one was 19 and one was 20 and two others were in their mid- mid-20s. one of them was 28 but they all knew one another. so they were all arrested under so much difficult circumstances swap team style arrest in a row brought back to phoenix in cars. they were all interrogated in a suite of rooms on the fourth floor of the courthouse. they set it up as a task force headquarters. and the short story is over the next two and a half days, they interrogated all five of these boys. some of them knew the other boys there and some of them didn't but all five of them were interrogated. of that group four of the five confessed on audiotape to these crimes, these killings, and they confessed insignificant detail

with times and places and colors and shapes and who was in the room and what kind of the gun they had. they testified, confessed on audiotape to all of that through a tag team of investigators who had have taken two and a half days to accomplish this by then and its five clear-cut confessions on tape. one person, one of the men denied he had any role to play but the other four implicated him so they they been formally arrested all five, took them to court to the magistrate in charge and charged them with nine counts of felony murder and first-degree premeditated murder and once they were charged it was classified as a death penalty case and that started the long process that they would go through. once that was done, then there was a second round of an

investigative effort to try to document and confirm in some way that these five young men, four of whom admitted to the crime and one did not but they were actually the ones that did it so they look for forensic evidence, alibi evidence, testimonial and character references of all the kinds of things you would do to follow up. the problem was that none of them worked. they all had solid alibis. none of them had -- with the exception of one young man. none of them had been to phoenix and they all had the -- the second they got to the courthouse and they all said no we were interrogated and forced to say what they wanted us to say. we did not do this and they all force of the same thing. while that is going on, they got around to testing testing the g. so when they tested the gun, the

crime lab, the state crime lab called immediately saying they checked the gun out and said i don't know where you got the gun but it's the murder weapon. there's no question about it so they immediately went back out like they had done before now seven weeks before. they arrested the two boys. the third one was a young man named roland carothers jaiya as he was known. over that course of i think once again they arrested these people at night seven, eight, 9:00 p.m. at night and interrogated all three of them and said well the same officers, use the same techniques that they had used on the tucson for. now two of these three boys, all juveniles, confessed to the crime. so all of this became wide public knowledge in phoenix and

all the press knew, all the media knew, every lawyer in town knew. i was one of them. there are two different sets of suspects all of them who have confessed and i can't be the case because both groups denied the existence of the other group. so at that point late in november of 1991, the maricopa county attorney's office dismissed all the charges against the tucson five young men at that point and they have been focused heavily on the two boys that did confess and there was a fair amount of threatening against one of them. that was alex garcia. they had evidence from him that was forensic in nature that could place them at the crime and besides that he had confessed. they have almost, not almost, no

forensic evidence of the other boys. they had a very weak case against him based entirely on his confession but they couldn't place him at the scene except by the testimony. ultimately what happened there was that the prosecutor's office offered a plea bargain to alex garcia. and the reason they did that, at least in my opinion, but i got the opinion from the maricopa county attorney, they gave garcia a plea bargain because they had a good case against him they didn't have a very good case against duguid. they needed garcia to testify against duguid so the plea bargain they offered him was if you testify against doogie truthfully at trial and if you plead tilting 29 counts of first-degree premeditated murder we will take the death penalty off the table.

that is all they were willing to do was to take the death penalty off the table for the 16-year-old boy. many would say you would likely get the death penalty in the house but it in a case they took that off the table and he agreed and he testified against duty at the trial and never offered a plea bargain to duty and they had no forensic evidence against him. but they did have his confession. but his confession was limited to the fact that he admitted to being there at the temple with garcia and he said with the other as well. during that time period that's all i had was his admission of being physically there. so that was the case went to trial in the summer of 1993. they tried the case for about seven weeks over a three-month period of time. at the end of the trial the jury

had to determine whether or not jonathan doogie was guilty or not. he had no role to play in the case but garcia of course was the crime witness and the only witness against doodie so they had to test garcia's credibilitt doodie's testimony because doodie did not testify in the trial. they did play his very long audiotape interrogation to the jury. the jury heard all of that but what they got out of that was all of there was to get which was i was there and i didn't shoot anybody. i didn't kill anybody. i wasn't even the room when it happened but i was there at the temple. so against that, they returned a verdict of guilty, unanimous guilt -- verdict of guilty for felony murder only and they

acquitted him on first-degree premeditated murder. the only explanation for that was the thought garcia was the shooter, not doodie. so they rejected the testimony. he was not before them as a defendant but he certainly was no witness. the other thing that happened during the trial that made it a very unusual trial was that the defense lawyer for jonathan doodie a very able lawyer named peter balkan, mr. balkan called two of the tucson for to the witness stand in the doodie case and he read evidence, didn't read it that submitted the transcript of all four. the argument was what better evidence could i possibly have of my client that the audiotape

confession of four other people who say they actually committed the crime that my client denies he committed so all the tucson for when they came to the audit audit -- all the officers that were called as witnesses during the trial and the culmination of all of that enormous effort was that jonathan doodie was found guilty only of felony murder and acquitted of first-degree premeditated murder. but it was a capital case at the time. so under our law at the time in arizona at the time, capital sentences were handed down by judges after a hearing. they weren't handed down by a jury. today they are handed down by a jury that in 1991 it was nothing but a judge so he conducted a capital mitigation hearing for

jonathan doody. at the end of that fairly long hearing, six or seven days, he rejected the state's demand for the death penalty and the sentence jonathan doody to 271 years in prison on nine different counts. each of the capital counts were to be served 2 degrees degree so the end result was 271 years. then he sentence alex garcia on his plea of guilty and he sentence garcia to 261 years. the prison terms were 10 years apart. that of course started the appellate process, so in may of 2011, the court of appeals said the state of arizona either

release jonathan doody from prison or give him a new trial. the state elected to give him a new trial. that is where the case stands today. may of 2011 and i think the current prediction is a new trial for jonathan doody will be held in phoenix in the maricopa county superior court sometime in the summer of 2013, this coming summer and that is where the case stands today. >> now for mesa arizona thomas wilson recalls the origins of mesa as a mormon settlement. >> mesa got its start sort of as an outpost by brigham young from utah. originally it was supposed to be part of a trail of settlements between utah and mexico and

indeed that's what it was so the first pioneers by brigham young came here in 1877 and settled in lehigh's which is today a suburb of mesa. they had the same trouble adapting to the climate is everybody else does in arizona particularly before we got air-conditioning. so naturally they built their homesteads and farmsteads and began cultivation and began building canal so that they could live that but naturally in the summer gets pretty hot. so they would do things like build porches where you could sleep. they would wet down sheets and put them around the building or around so that you would get early types of cooling. we are talking about the period between 187 into the earliest 20 centuries of climate in arizona particulaparticula r in the desert areas has always been a challenge but it ties than one that settlers and pioneers have been willing to me just as the prehistoric peoples did in the

salt river valley. when they started their communities, they were small farming communities that were almost like villages. they didn't even achieves town sized to live with the water from the beginning was an issue. the salt river of course divided water to the early settlers but what they have to do is figure out how to get water off the river and into their fields or crops and for domestic use so they built a series of canals and it's still the canals we use today to get water around the valleys but those canals were built really on following the roots that the prehistoric people have built in prehistoric times before 1450 a.d.. so when the first pioneers got here they made use of those prehistoric canals, cleaned them out and enlarge them perhaps and use that model and as i said we are still using those today. as i mentioned lehigh, section

was settled in 1877 and following your 1870 there was a group sent from utah called the mesa company in the first one was called a utah company and they settled in what is now central mesa basically where we are doing this interview but also about the same time they settled. they were small community at that time as well so we are talking about very small. even in 1900, 30 years after mesa settled the population of mesa was still under 800 in 1910 the population was only 1600 so even out the time of the end of the second world war or the beginning of the second world war there were only 7000 people here and now they're more in more than ford and 50,000 so it gives you an idea of the exponential growth we have had here today mesas the 38th largest city in the united states with a population of about 450,000 to some degree

it's grown because the phoenix metropolitan area which is well over 3.51 million of the largest metropolitan areas in the state. nevertheless they would convert the economy. originally built up around agriculture of course and agriculture of course and they're still in agricultural sector here but by no means the most important. now we have aviation. we have a lot of tech knowledge accompanies. and of course tourism has always been an act to that he in mesa. so it's a more diverse economy now and as i say fairly robust economy given the economic downturn that the whole country has recently experienced. i think it's extraordinarily important to know about the history of the city which you live and is in some ways is the key to the future. i mean it gives you perspective on decisions that the earlier government made and some of the leaders and teaches you about the history of the country as well as the history of your community.