it points the way toward the future and it also gives you warnings. for example water was crucial for people settling in the desert from the time of the prehistoric indians until today. it still is critical for us as it was 2000 years ago when native americans were living here so we can look at their adaptation and look at the adaptation of the early settlers and look now at the needs of an urban population area that is going to be almost 4 billion very shortly. so sustainability, land land use, water use are things that we should know about in the past gives a clue to how we ought to make decisions about our future. >> for more information on booktv's recent visit to mesa arizona many other cities visited their local content vehicles go to c-span.org/local content. >> next on booktv bernard lietaer and jacqui dunne argued

that our monetary system is antiquated and in a system of complementary currencies could help improve the economy in our communities and states. this is about an hour and 15 minutes. >> good evening greenwich. [laughter] good evening to you too. there was a man who was very knowledgeable english economist who came, who actually really understood about money. he thought for a moment and said well, i know three people. there is a colleague of mine at the university, a student of mine and a junior clerk. tonight, i give you a fourth person, my esteemed colleague and friend, bernard lietaer. [applause]

>> this is the recipe of what has been going on over the last three to five years. in mathematical terms the chairman of the fed is known as helicopter ben. do you know why that is? there were 13 articles written about deflation. about deflation in china, sorry in japan and seven of those by the 90s so he really has focused on that issue. and in one of the seven articles he had the strongest solution. if nothing else worked he would send the helicopters over the city's. that was called deflation. anyway, my story on the euro is

a rather personal one because actually accidentally i happen happened to have been involved at the beginning and how this happened is quite innocently through a book which i wrote that was published in 1979, which have been written in three languages actually. this is the french version. it talks about latin america and it's the only book that actually forecasts the debt crisis that happened in the early 80s and which i had forecast is saying this is the beginning of the series. there is a structural problem in the global monetary system and the first place that will blow up his latin america but we will find it in other places over time. by the way we have had none of

those since. we have had 425 systemic crises and countries according to the imf since 1970. that is more than 10 per year. the country is in trouble because of a systemic trouble. just after i finished that book, i got a call from a headhunter offering me a job at the central bank. so i decided to accept it. i just had written a book announcing the system at problem in the monetary domain and here i thought it was the time and the place. so i did that i accepted the job two weeks into that job these two gentlemen president of

france at the time, the chancellor of germany. they had regular meetings and one of their meetings they announce something that said europe needs monetary stability. and i remember in the north central bank and all of the others what did they mean? okay, the next thing was that we went to paris and said do something purely european. while mr. schmidt went to -- and said do something that doesn't upset the americans. these two ideas are not compatible. [laughter] so in basel, that the bank of

international -- which is the central banks when they have a problem with this type they created committee. they put in charge of the committee the country that doesn't have the illusion of running the world. belgium qualifies. so that is how my colleague and myself in charge of the computer planning and organization departments of the central bank, i was dealing with the technical part and he was dealing with diplomacy. let me immediately say that all the credit should go to france while my colleague for the simple reason that he can invent to monetary systems but if you saw one of them, one in your life, that is a rare thing. so he is the one who sold it. now, here is the result.

you know the map of europe but just to show you what really the eurozone is. the light blue areas are parts of europe that are not part of the eurozone but a part of the e.u., the european union. so all the dark at once are the countries that are part of the system. there had been a big love over over -- a fair around europe. this is actually the way colin presented the eurozone so they were looking at it as a major breakthrough at the deeper integration of europe. i am showing this picture because the first time i met this gentleman paul volcker in my central banking days, i am not short but he is a good head

taller than me and he always smokes a cigar. so he dominates the scene like you see here. and i remembered this cigar ashes wondering if they would fall in my right eye or my left eye and his first question was what the hell are you about with this? so it was interesting. the next episode for me happened in the same place. i had lunch there with then secretary general of the bank of international and he said bernard i read your book on latin america. what are you doing in the central bank?

nobody had asked me that question but i told them literally that i am in the central bank because i thought that it was the appropriate place to find out whether it's possible to do something about the system. and he said but bernard you don't understand. we exist, the bank of international settlements. every central bank in the world exists. the imf in the world bank only existed for one purpose, to keep the system going exactly as it is. not to improve it. i suddenly understood why anyone of the proposals i had to make it the central bank of anything that would be out-of-the-box was immediately bought so there is truth to this. and the truth is from a banking viewpoint it is true, right?

just imagine that microsoft has the government enforcing the monopoly for microsoft. can we do any better? and the government itself will buy the services from you. in other words not only the government doesn't use the priorities that it has but it actually enforces the monopoly. so, that is what has happened. i returned to brussels and resigned. they didn't ask me why. i did not tell them. now, here are the things that went well in the euro process. the converging system went very well. actually surprisingly well. the simultaneous currency replacement have been the biggest money operation from a logistic viewpoint in history. you are talking 12 countries at the same time in the same day in

the same hour producing all of their currencies is one -- in one block. that is never happened and i can say that because it happened much later after i resigned. there were three mistakes that are not easy to resolve. the first one is the european central bank. and the countries were represented, the weight of the currencies was proportional to the gnp of the countries which meant that the big players had a lot less to a depth of the smaller ones. in the european central bank moldova for luxembourg had the same quality of votes as german. and i don't know how we will ever recover from that one. so that is one structural problem. the second one is they kind of

went halfway. in other words you have a single currency but the bank supervision is made at the national level and bank responsibility is at the international level. a big mistake. as we saw in 2008. and the final one is the banking system has been buried clever in using integration into the european zone as the reason to actually strengthen their position. the central bank and governments cannot be helped. that is not the case in history and that wasn't the case in america. so this we owe to these two gentlemen the president of france and his minister of finance who we saw later becoming the president and what

they did is shown here. there was a law introduced in 1972 that for the first time since napoleon because the central bank and krantz was created by napoleon in person in 1800, the government could not discount that the central bank. in other words they could not get funding from the central bank. when the government needs money goes to the fed. so, that little law means that let's take 1979, the percentage of debt, of governmental that in france as proportionally was 21% and today it was 78%. so it would go straight up and

we were thinking of course this has to do with government spendthrift. that was the motivation. in fact it's a lot had not been passed it would be 28%. because from then on basically the governments needed to work in the or to borrow money in the market conditions instead of the central bank. so that was part of the problem. that is my favorite picture. the achilles heel of europe. and this is again from the economist and they have been talking about this for a few times so they definitely have an interest but it would also contain this.

here are the scenarios. germany stop supporting the euro and its gone a half an hour later, not one hour later, half an hour later and there are going to be three possibilities. the splitting up. i don't think we will go back to 27 currencies. one of the key clusters will be germany and the question will be be -- and the final thing is not coming from europe. this is actually coming not from them either but from the imf. i would describe that document as the pope inaugurating the buddhist temple.

what is striking is not the buddhist temple. this is coming from the people who -- for the system. and they are really doing some remarkable things. basically what it would mean is the end of the capacity for banks to create money. only the government would be able to do so, and that would change completely the game. it would be the biggest change in 300 years and this is currently being seriously talked about. in the media or you won't hear a word about it. there are problems that are not being addressed by this whole thing and that is for example thinking back to the days of france. just on aging if you don't think anything else into account by 2050 france will be at 100% and by the way the u.s. is in the

same situation. so just aging of the population is enough. so, jacqui. >> so here we are this evening faced with extraordinary problems like how are we going to to take care for aged? how do we educate our children? how do we clean up after the terrible hurricane sandy for example? when we saw that talks of cereal called crisis every single morning you wake up we hear nothing but crisis. and we are here today to tell you that a number of people are coming together and they are rethinking money and coming up with the most exciting and innovative solutions to the crises that we faced. these are people not with ph.d.s and not necessarily with much education but coming together within their community and creating their own money that runs in parallel with the

national system. money is a tricky thing. it's very difficult for us to talk about it because it's so hardwired in our psyches that we are embarrassed about it. and we feel it's that subject that's way over there that should be dealt with by an economist for example. we swim in it. we are born in it like fish in water. we live and die in it but we never really get the respect to know what truly it is. so tonight, well for example economists will tell you what money is. it is a unit of account, something you can add up and subtract and it's a means of exchange, how you buy and sell things and it has a store of value. what we say here tonight is money is not a thing. as if your children come up to you and ask you for something you say well money does not grow on trees and they are right.

it's not a thing, it's not a thing of nature. it lives in the space of agreement and when you think about it all types of things have been used as money. the code leaves, tobacco during the second world war, women's nylons were used. in prisons they use cigarettes. it's whatever one other person accepts as a means of exchange and with that understanding a whole new world opens up for us. and how many people here in the audience use a complementary currency or know what a complementary currency is? one person. okay, two people. how many people use frequent flyer miles? most of the audience. that is a complementary currency it is a form of money that is not the national currency. for example it started 40 years ago as a gimmick to read loyalty

to use a certain airline and it had spare capacity which were unused seats and they wanted to get loyalty. quiet as possible to link an unused resource with an unmet need as in the case of frequent flyer miles, it is now possible to take that technology whereby they use it as a social purpose. also what's interesting about frequent flyer miles is it changes people's behavior. you are now loyal to certain airline because you can get the benefit of frequent flyer miles. not only can you buy seats on your next trip to cancun or wherever you want to go but you can do other things like rent hotel rooms and cars. so it is a form of money. let's look at some interesting examples. complementary currencies are currencies that work in tandem

with the national currency, be it the dollar the euro the peso or whatever and when we first started counting these back in 64 there were only two major systems and over the intervening years up to 2005 when we stopped counting there were over 4000 mature systems all over the world and since the crisis of 2008, it's off the charts. and these are mostly for her needs. so, what's interesting about this picture of a botanical garden? what's interesting about this picture is it's in a developing country and what is even more interesting about this picture is it actually now sits on what was that side of the town in brazil. what happened was the mayor of that town and this is going back 25 years ago, hadn't gotten the

resources to level the shantytown said a grown-up. no monday whatsoever. sound familiar? and when he realized they could not deal with the problem he knew he had a garbage problems of garbage was everywhere. the streets going to the houses were so narrow that garbage trucks would not travel up them and their work terrible results. you can imagine the horrible mess. so he said i have a very adjusting situation. i have spare capacity on my bus service so the bus service, this is the bus service today. it's probably one of the best in the world but as you can see everybody goes into that tube and i actually pre-pay their ride by token.

and something like eight stores opened up and 100 people can get onto the bus in a matter of three minutes. one by one and pay their fares etc. so it's a very efficient system. so what he did was he sent it does create to all of the balers all around the circumference and for every bag of garbage that the children brought in that was sorted out between cans and paper and glass, they would get a token to ride on the buses. these tokens were then used to get to the parents so they could go downtown and you can see here, how do you pronounce it in portuguese? it literally means garbage that is not garbage. basically a number of different currencies grew out of the

fundamental idea that the cleanup of the acer balers could create this comprehensive currency and this is another example of every single month each family gets a box of staples like oil and vegetables and things. my favorite example is a great story. the fishermen when they go out and there are days when there is not catch on the fish are not biting, they actually troll for garbage and they bring in tons and tons of garbage which then is recycled. what is interesting about the story is that after about five years of only the tokens of

currency but other currency which were devised, people who lived in could achieve a had a standard of living that was one third higher than other people living in other parts. this is not some nice little interesting project, side project. this actually resulted in real change and a real increase in the standard of living. and this is the botanical garden that now stands built by local money that stands in the middle of the town today. this is another favorite story of mine that comes from the book and that is designed by bernard. they have a problem with a neighborhood which is part of flanders in belgium. it has some of the poorest

people. there are about 20 different languages spoken. a very depressed neighborhood and to me it feels quite ostracize so they decided to send out a survey and find out what would get this community excited? what would make them feel part of a greater city again and? they said you know we would love to have a little garden. that way we could plan their vegetables and fruits and i could spend time with my children and teach them some gardening skills. lo and behold they found an old factory in the factory is no longer there but as you can see all of these plots of land have been sorted out and you cannot buy that land. you can only rent it and you can only rent it in the currency of that town. this is an example of the currency.

and you can earn it in all kinds of ways, by changing lightbulbs. there is just a long list of for example cleaning up your neighborhood. these are not actors ladies and gentlemen. these are real people doing a job. and here they are beautifying by planting flowers, putting flowerpots and their windowsills what is really interesting about this is they were able to take a small euro budget and leverage it three times to 20 times in a period of two years. they were able to average two times at the beginning of the program and up to 22 grams in the life of the program over the last two years and it's so successful they now have our volunteers who have jobs.

and the other issue that is very very prevalent is the issue of health care. bedard has some very interesting interesting -- working with the irish government. >> this little statistical table is in some respect. on the vertical we have the percentage of the satisfaction satisfaction of the customers and on the horizontal level the expense per-capita in used dollars. that is where the united states is. in other words the same level as greece or italy who spent about a third or a fourth of the money as the united states united states per-capita. another way of looking at it is denmark is the winner. 90% of the people are very satisfied and they are spending less than half. so, the problem is not how much

money you spend. it is something else. what is that? i'm going to make a radical claim. no country in the world has a health care system. they all have a medical care system. that is not the same thing. now, in the medical care system, these are statistics coming from johnson & johnson who is one of the providers and preventive medicine over a period of two to three years works out to 2000%. [inaudible] this is a massive market failure going on and in the extreme case of the united states --

so what is really happening is that financial incentives and the medical care system are two things. you need to be sick and alive. if you are not alive you are not -- and if you are not sick you you are not interested in that explains this. ..

you have behavior and that you get your dream. we're starting with king, 50,000 kids that are going to be part of the process this year. the mechanism is it going to do healthy things, spores, losing weight, whatever. you get points in these planes can buy you more preventive medical care and the people who are providing the care can go.

they would be cashing in for dollars. if you lose 20 pounds, the probability of a heart attack or diabetes has dropped significantly. well, that issue is a difficult margin that we know seminary scratcher corporation and local government insurance company. they are the ones who will of savings from healthier oil a day or at appropriate rate. so that's the system being implemented. we need to think of another way. >> another concern we have is

how do we take care of elderly people? i know it's a great of concern and japan had this problem 20 years ago that came up up with a solution that works very, very simply. say i have a neighbor that i go and visit. i might jabber to a dentist appointment. for every hour i spent helping the neighbors, icann electronic credit and this i can say is i get the flu or save it up to when i alter or interestingly i can set my credit to another part of the country for someone to come in and the caption and.

older people can stay in their own home with dignity for a longer and they're not isolated. if i see the bats have been stuck in a while i can get a screwdriver and fix that rather than coming apart and causing an accident. but the elderly are reporting in their survey is they let the system is syndicated younger people in the neighborhood coming in and visiting them and so much of our society is via the between the different age groups. there is little interaction between the ages. furthermore, the government has to help pay for this. so this is a way in which a complementary currency with time

and talent with an unmet need, which is how to care for elderly in creating a currency to bridge the two. there's an example of this, probably the best, most widely known and used complementary currency system in the united states this time again founded in 1980 a very minute attorney called at your card here at washington d.c. and basically for our service i get a dollar, which i can use for another service or product. probably the best-known system is in the united states, just down the road in new york, for example. the latest time making network they is about two dozen people.

it's so popular it's actually growing every single week and is used for a variety of different services such as bicycle repair ticket free legal aid. you get your free legal aid and trade race, but the attorneys suggest they go into the community and decent day for the community by earning time banking and paying it forward. a very interesting story about switzerland. >> swift relented if a provisional country. they had two currencies.

one stands for alice from a longer type that is in a trump card for the system. this is for small businesses typically. it was started by 17 people, 17 businesspeople. 20% whilst this businesses are lost and it is actually the stability of the swiss economy, which is a very surprising statement. and why is that clerics because if you get the choice to pay something that are equal value, by the way, you always think this is france and you can also buy stuff from china and take vacations in cancun.

however, you may actually not the very easily. when you are in a recession and e-stamp harshly idle comments except the boat. [inaudible] and that is the seeker for the stability by three articles. >> is a very interesting piece in my dad. they were sitting around the table. it was made she lives, let's find complementary currency today. the reason they had the conversation, whether we going to do? is because they all had their lines of credit cut from their

banks and they put their hats in hand and would think how we going to pay their employees? i reprinted their suppliers? when they realized they had a circle of buying and selling, they decided to create their own currency and not today has been accurately pointed out. 20% of a business in switzerland is conducted in this other currency. this is probably one of my favorite stories in yet another design is called adorer project, which plays in lithuania. lithuania has a female president and i said at the very, very interesting agenda for her country. she wants everybody in the theater for dtb trilingual. she wants than to learn spanish, english, chinese, other

languages. also, she wants them to be proficient in the use of internet because that is the future. she wants to generate a common activity between the older generation from younger generations. she really wanted to make that person for a missing letter country codes for another. they have some advantages. they have the highest penetration of fiber optic ran down in europe and everybody has a mobile phone. so this is how it works. every single citizen in lithuania has a dream. here in america you call it the dream rocket. the bucket list. everybody has a dream within themselves. each citizen of lithuania right down with their dream is.

and maybe take a look at the warriors in kenya. and maybe to go to japan under buddhism. contra new york knicks earrings the exchange, whatever that dream is. they then make a contract with the foundation and say okay, i speak english and i agreed to give up as an arms of english teaching in return for a trip to kenya to live for a month. so they make their agreement. see the issue door out, this learning currency. interestingly we will see that your account is the account of your mobile phone. there you see my notes together. interestingly in lithuania, there's a number of nonprofits. whatever they do, whatever their

agenda is, there's always a learning component with every single nonprofit. for example, personal culture, but there is a learning quotient , learning how to do permit culture. so anyway, i go off and i spend -- i teach and i earn my door a and then teach somebody unstaffed english, whatever it ip and then i go back to the lithuanian learning from haitian they have completed my thousand hours of english and the lithuanian foundation has put the package together. but the whole package together so i can fulfill my dream. what is really interesting about this is there are two aspects to

dora. you can earn by teaching and you can earn by learning. and the lifelong learning the taking of people over the age of 12 to teach us older folks how to use the internet and social media. so you have a young person who is earning 76 by taking to facebook and twitter in the older person who's learning also earns the doras as well. there's a lifetime of learning and you may take out my my diversity courses, not just use the internet internet, but taking courses on the internet as well. this is my favorite part of the dora. they tell the children under the age of 12 and they have an assignment to go an older person in the community and ask them a very question.

what have you learned in your life that would help now, that would be beneficial for me to know? deyoung pearson can either write an essay about it. they can do multimedia, make a film in the can, the person persons time he was given the wisdom, sharing the wisdom is earning doras a man person writing the essay are doing interpretive dance also earns doras. here we see collective wisdom of the people of lithuania handed down generation to generation and bonds firming treatment generations. is a superduper prize at the end of the year. >> very many, many, many more examples.

so jobs. jobs means small businesses. they are all starving from cash flow in brazil and uruguay. we create a network for small businesses and you can use invoices to get them insured and provide a cash that is usable immediately. if global currency whose purpose is to make it possible for big businesses, multinational businesses to think what turn. brazil has had one experiment

for 15 years, which is a bank with dual currency. i spend so successful and allowing implementation of 200 systems, 100 are operational. >> a beautiful piece about the currency story in brazil, bernard, is can you imagine a community taken away from the seashore because paper towels wanted to come in and build resource clinics they found themselves in a desolate marsh area, little infrastructure. people asked the question, why are we were? everybody's scratching their heads and says i don't know why we are poor. so they realize there's money in our community.

in american terms, half a million dollars. but where does the money go? fabius because of his national current fee, they were going to other parts of brazil. says bernard pointed out, they created a currency designed specifically to be spent in that area. what is fascinating about this if it that became very successful in a short time created 3000 jobs in that little town in the central bank got really nervous and really upset and sad you are creating monopoly money. there is a big court case in the final day, the church says they are ready to give his verdict and the judge turns to the central bank of brazil and says

what have you done for these poor people? complete and utter silence. the jesuit favor of the bank. as bernard said >> on the legal aspect, the women who presented the head of the legal depart and for the central bank. so there's a breakthrough here. it's possible. either way, brazil is a country that has produced in years and the various systems. >> as we would say, it's not the amount of money throughout a problem. recites the type of money.

if you create a currency that can only be used in that particular town, they experience an incredible flowering in their particular area. never doubted a small group. citizens can change the world. today it is the only thing that ever has. these are just very ordinary people coming together, getting engaged in their community and thinking outside the box and there write about incredible, wonderful sustainability in a region. >> that is the local monetary system. you can look at a top-down or the writer that.

secondly, this is not coming from a journal. this is coming from the economist. the helicopter has been pumping for a long time and it isn't working. so we really need to look out for the traditional ways of solving our problems. finally, if you put in one box of patriarchal societies, greece, rome, the renaissance

western world, you have a fairly consistent situation. they all have in common purpose of monopoly top job that interests. [inaudible] so by the way, i don't want repeated because that system has actually been possible. do not believe the current street would not have had that consideration. however, it concentrates well and just as the process is an issue provided money who have to borrow to people who have more than they need. by the way, if you want to know,

whether we are in the picture go society, we look at the image of the divide. if the image of the divine is a man with a beard who's done it all, you are in a picture go society. now there are other societies they are. egypt, the nice role-played by led. she sees him repeatedly. the period from the 10th to the 13th century, a rebuilt really be in most cases.

it is a very unusual thing, but it's inseminate in its power. in each society are the kinds are talking about, you have one currency that is identical to trade with people you don't know and i have a second current see are exactly the opposite and is a more sophisticated case that has negative penalty. these periods have also been an extraordinarily economic. of well-being, particularly for the low-level society. the highest level of standard of living in europe for 20% of society turns out to be the top

century. not today. we noticed that the form of the bonds are the people held here. in london, women today are shorter and we all know it's the standard of living. we have been living with a cold war. what's fascinating to me is in fact they used the same many. the only difference is that the banks were controlled by development. but that the only difference. it is top-down adventuress.

look at it from another perspective, another direction. the last time i looked it was actually an beautiful plan and it is our hands and they become responsible and ready. humanity will decide who lives and dies in a society not ready. i think only masculine and feminine energy and matter were talking about a deeper level. feminine currency is compatible with cooperation rather than just competition.

we need both types of energy. thank you very much. [applause] any questions? please circulate. >> can you define what a gift economy is and also your pain to be very rosy picture of all days, whatever they are called, dual currencies. can you tell us the bumps upon the road anyone has considered setting them up? >> the gift economy -- i don't know if i should use a

vocabulary, but it's actually very, very old. we don't have these words of wisdom in the european language. it's on the masculine side, but it deals with lots of other things. the pure unit currency is a gift. what were talking about his educational tools that they are compatible with. if you want to make that test, the next birthday party at her husband or wife, give them a 100-dollar bill and say that won't work. by the way, take a million dollars in two weeks later everybody fine. so that's over getting rid of.

we made a counterbalance. the difficulty of system depends on which. it depends that say the fundamental criteria is we need to have around the table for people who are affected by the system you're designing. decide what is missing, to find the resources that are accessible. that is very different for businesses. in germany we have no fair-minded mix bierman. takes three to five years. in the case of the so -- [inaudible] so it depends. there is no universal answer. >> cite the early years of

flight. it's a miracle these things fly at all. we are starting it will take some time before we had the 787 taken to air. i do not bring the microphone here for the next one. >> what do you think of on hayekon high exposés and eliminated central planning, eliminating central banks and allowing free market money such as gold coins or whatever the market decides his money and allowing not if it is any type of central planning. the lemonade infection of reserve banking or allow free banking with personal liability? >> there's several layers in your first question.

let me start with what i have suited to commit the elimination of fractional reserve banking. however, still maintains the monopoly in favor of the government. so that is one answer of one way things are going. hayek himself, by the way the sacking of concurrency for the same type. they were all being good shoot many that compete with each other. you could have business-to-business like3 business-to-business like the one in brazil that are mentioned on the list. there is the possibility for it to become initiative can see. one of the things that is not

understood, including by hayek, unfortunately, is the systemic is not to fund the government. if you give value to a currency that otherwise has done. if the government does not require you need to pay your taxes and dollars, no one would bother. another is, there is a role for government choosing which currency it wants to honor and that would be the dominant currency in that society. that is the peace hyatt did not get. all bank issued money would be acceptable for payment of taxes. so the hayek argument is pure

capitalism into one extreme and really look into another angle includes hayek, but is not limited. hayek was not concerned about elderly care, okay? we are. please wait. the real me one microphone? >> given the news this past weekend about cyprus and the problems they are, i understand that governments are contemplating freezing the bank and taking 10% of the holders money, something as drastic as that and they are meeting now, trying to figure out what to do. if they are to possibly ask you

for some of bias, which suggests? >> actually, i have been dealing with greece about that very question to what i've been recommending this feature now a city issue is currency, they are hired people for things they need to have an to take care of the park or whatever else in that currency. don't do this at the national level. the level of corruption is too high there. cities are now dying. 60% unemployment. what can you do? said that is the kind of

solution. in the case of cyprus, two reactions. the first one is on right, that the next episode. sorry, but this is a sovereign debt issues. this is 64. it's going to be 65 and 6667. as long as you don't change the system. the second point i would make, the biggest depositors -- that is not talked about in the media, but that is the reality. in other words, you have another dimension here. it doesn't explain what is behind the scenes. >> question from the back.

>> yes, is this working? i'm intrigued by your example of the people and do so so that's a testament to the swamp and that he -- not the way, that became prosperous because they use their own currency. as economists were over a century that it could market has been beneficial and allows capital to be accumulated and invest in the best projects. this intrigues me because i find it difficult to believe that if you applied this doctrine to a small rural community west virginia that you people can have your current date and only buy and sell among each other, you can't do with a bigger economy around you, in my opinion that would impoverish them rather than make them wealthy.

>> let me make one correction to what you're saying. national money also circulate in the big house two currencies are the national current you can make a loan to start a business. so in other words, two systems. you are assuming the other system is a theory that's not the case. a counter example of what you're saying is the big oxfam saying is the big oxfam is impoverished neighborhoods. the money goes straight to headquarters to make it very efficient capitalized, but it is not helping local employment at all. so there's a question of balance here. it's not 100% only one thing and it's not a small winter or

protected. it's a tool for a new balance and it's in that new balance of the power. what would you like to add to that quite >> what were talking about is having a monetary toolbox. if you take the national current date is like a hammer and his brilliant hammering a nail into the wall. however, we need the equivalent of a screwdriver, saw, chisel. the only one type of tool which is a hammer, which is hopeless when you want to paint the room. so it's not excluding the hammer. if they toolbox with a wide array of functionality. so we have the currency for the elderly, currencies for education, currencies for relief when there's a disaster, you name it.

but we have a wide variety so we are not depending on what type of money will say the dollars are at a euro the peso, which is all the same type of money is scarce and has to be scarce to maintain its value. the other complementary current date bring prosperity into a community as we saw in a town, be it a mistake that at a local or level, be it on a national level. >> is there a future for the euro? and if so, what systemic changes need to be put into place to secure its future? >> there is a future for the euro. probably not in the current shape. i've highlighted three-point

that need to be fixed. two of them are fixable. the board issue is probably not. i have trouble imagining that you're now going to have, you know, germany at a certain point you have to say look, we are a minority 26 to one. sorry, guys. that's the risk we run. now fortunately, germany needs the euro. germany has a huge advantage with the euro because it keeps the euro at a lower level than whatever the german mark or equivalent would be in a period of germany in terms of experts will be threatened. so were dealing with a political issue. i think there will be changes. then they came up with a plan if

this is implemented internationally, which he would be. if that happens, that's a new game. so i can choose to be optimistic every kind of muddled through, but it won't be the same rules. we will change the rules. we can change the rules and let it happen in the past, the there will occur in every situation. i wouldn't see it with the current structure. [inaudible] >> let me be clear. this day and the good old days of margaret thatcher that you

are the only male in our cabinet. so you know, let's distinguish feminine energy. it's not dramatic. >> one more question and then our speakers can take an answer questions after. >> in this rethinking money, have you you done any examples unthinking greed, which is a universal human care eristic? how does that fit into this rethinking of money in people's desire to a quieter -- >> you're asking a much deeper question than abcd skype did. >> when i mentioned science, how many of you would understand the

language? is that an language you can understand? already. the beginning of the project they were doubtless the following question. where does greed and fear, the two that exist in financial markets come from? they have been to be occurring in society and the reason as when you have a society to repress this a great mother, fertility, sexuality, and money. you will attract it.

we have created the money system in the shadows, which are greek. we've created a money system that needs to be scarce or financiers. if everybody has enough money would be worth it. if everybody have enough money of that type, it would work. so the scarcity is built-in in the greatest built-in. so, we have actually included the shadows. i know this is probably not clear for many people here, but there's a whole book about it that exist in eight languages. but i'm working on heaven and

should -- and for those who want to get into that. human nature i claim as a shadow phenomenon from the repression of nature carfax. >> they actually explain how the greed is in a monetary. >> for those of you with pay to purchase a book, they are outside in the author's autograph it for you. [applause] beasts

>> imacs, april summit looks at the history of the colorado river and is for the southwest. book tv sat down on her most recent visit to mesa, arizona. >> it is considered to be the most litigated river in the world and that is probably very accurate. more losses, compaq was created to regulate what is collectively known as the law of the river. there's probably 13 to 15 nature laws that expand the whole 20th century up until the present time that talks about who gave how much of the water and who could take a how much every year, how to share it in a relationship with mexico on the water as well. the colorado river is about 1450 miles long.

it's not the longest river in north america by any means, nor does it have good most flow. number is five and in terms. they used to flow all the way down to the gulf of california, reaching the ocean. it doesn't reach there very often anymore. there are cited dates in the united states that depend on the river to texaco. you have wyoming, which probably has the least amount of water, but also has noticed a resource tributaries along with colorado and nevada, utah, new mexico and arizona and california. the basic waterline in the west, the law of prior appropriation differs from repairing a water differs from repairing a water the been the most of the rest of the united states, where water rates or could not do directly

to land. if you have land that has water, you have a way to the latter. if you salant county saw the water. you can't sell the water without delay and attached it. fish is not enough water out here to operate that way. so the minors, very early in western history in the early 1800s come to california made up their own agreement with each other. other. whoever got their first got the water and had the right to direct it where they needed it in some times that the long-distance you have to send water to where it's needed. so i said above so very few decades, becomes, which basically comes down to first in time. if you get there first, you have on behalf of the slaughter. whoever's next guess was left

over. there is one caveat, beneficial use. you have to pitch or water to beneficial use to have a right to it. in other words, people can get to a river and claim it and not use it. if you got there first, you have a right to that water. all of us in the colorado river basin for watershed were talking about somewhere between 35 and 40 million people in the united states and in mexico as well. they are part of the colorado river we need it for the biggest

water out here as agriculture and mechanic or anything without it. the land is very fertile and the growing season is very long, so it's a good place to do agriculture, even though it's ironic. but you have to bring water heater and that is the reason why we use the colorado howitzers seem was first settled in the people recognize they could redirect it, bring the water to the desert. the government regulates the operations of the major dams on the mainstream of the colorado river and the bureau of reclamation, which was formed early in the 20th century, part of the reclamation act of 1902 is a body within the interior department in charge of overseeing and operations up another better. they also operate other rivers,

but the colorado river is the bureau of reclamation domain. as for the federal government is involved. at the same time, lots of competing interests. the states themselves have a certain amount of right to control how their allocation of water is used and distributed. the longest supreme court in american history was about the colorado river and throughout most of the 1950s was finally settled in a 1963, between arizona and california over water. how much do they get? there have been a few losses prior to that time my arizona against california. the major argument with california believed hoping to get as much water as possible said they were entitled to a

4.4 million-acre share and how much water can cover an acre of land to put the large a share of the river and they believed they were titled to more and certainly arizona was not in titled to a full 2.8 million-acre feet. there's not a slash agricultural usage of the river in arizona at the time of the compact in 1922, which remained the law -- which remains law governing who gets how much water. california said they need to give up some of that water because one of the largest tributaries of the colorado runs all the way to the state. so the water they pull poll a source of salt river is all part of the colorado. subtract that amount of water and that is the shared domain to. arizona said are you kidding?

no. refuse to sign until just before the treaty with mexico. the disagreement was still there. california saying no, they can build the canal of federal funding is blocked for it because california believed that would take away water they needed. once it finally settled, the judgment did come down in favor of arizona. the decisions that she can't count the tributaries and arizona in the full 2.8 feet of water. california had no choice but to accept the government and live in the limitation. but what happens after that is interesting and as soon as the decision is made, you have to have federal funding for a project that large.

so they try to find some in congress for it and at that point california were to block funding. in the end can arizona has one must give up some of its gain in this lawsuit. yes industry into the right right of the 4.8 million-acre feet, but it worked to persuade the central arizona project canal can arizona at that time had to agree would have the most junior vice that the canal be built would be in time of shortage. so arizona knows this. they're not happy about it. there's always been an anger about them having more priority rights. it is the imperial valley of cibecue to divert the water first so that water rates are more senior than ours. however, the good news is for arizona everyone realizes we can't just cut arizona off.

at least we realized that. i found lots of examples and it's not been an easy thing to do. just this last november there has been some progress. we give mexico 1.5 million-acre feet and that the treaty between united states and mexico. arizona have been the most junior right to colorado feels upset about the situation, saying why should mexico always get their 1.5 million-acre feet because of the treaty while we have to have a shortage, while less water would run down the canal and the sharing would cascade. they do have a plan in place for

shortage in arizona would still take the first cut. they are negotiating to minimize that. california understand so have to share. if it takes prior procreation not dewitt played out, arizona with a and may be whatever the most junior right is probably in colorado because those projects in utah as well as vegas. and california has understood it will have to give up time of drought as well. california gets a bigger share of the colorado river, even though a lot of that water is pumped out of the watershed to los angeles for a huge agricultural print basket of america. so they will have to cut back, but it's not clear how that's

going to go smoothly. the good news is we are talking, but that's as far as it's gotten. this interim guidelines. the bureau of reclamation in 2003 sent to the state, okay, if you don't come up with an agreement, while they do for you. if you don't want to see to see if i do who has a shortage or how were going to manage this, all of you get together and sit down and negotiate is that this really started the process of talks between the states in the basin. i've been very helpful and another good thing is finally we are bringing exit onto the conversation. we like to think of the early 20th century and throughout most of it that since the river started in the united states, never mind that to flow in to mexico. although this will do have to sit down and talk.

it's unclear how these shortages will play out, but i think everybody understands it's only fair to share. we will try to do this. this book has been a fascinating project for me and i've been interested in reverse for a gala time. group on the banks of river and the important at this river in southwest has been a fascinating experience. it's really a plumbing system with big carton if you want to think of it that way. we put lots of straws in to it, so that's been a fascinating story. so this story over time, the human relationship with that river can provide a microcosm of a very much larger picture of this human relationships to the environment. we have no choice in the southwest. no choice but to figure out how

to create a sustainable relationship with the colorado river. without the hoover dam i wouldn't be here. without the canal separate water to us, we would be here. not all of us are tiny. the great megalny. the great megalopolis has grown here in phoenix and if we don't pay attention to the importance of using the river in a more sustainable way. i look at 100 years of a river space three and i've only seen some real hope towards the end 100 years and beyond in the 21st the 21st century was starting to pay attention to the crisis before we look for reasonable solutions. looking at the whole picture, the whole history of the river helps us understand why they exist the way we do in the southwest.

it also helps us understand the role of rivers, surface waters and regions in other parts of the world, that gives us a larger picture come a piece of a larger picture of how human relate to the environment and t and strains to come along with it. the stresses and strains to come along with it. the political fights and hamper a sustainable relationship. other barriers that stand in the way of making better use of the natural resources. we can look at why it didn't work. we can also look at what didn't work and what changes we can make it can be a fabulous example for river watershed throughout the world. >> for more information on booktv's recent visit to mesa, arizona and other cities visited, cookies bestand.org/local