introduce our speaker today she will discuss the new book working with sharks the book describes what happens when 11 women to be attacked by the manager.

it disseminated in the legislation of the pakistan a parliament to make sexual harassment at trial -- a crime. with this human rights and democracy center on active as of and is currently based in washington d.c. and her earlier books published by oxford and forgotten faces have been translated into three languages and popular at a young pakistan women. and continues third education teaching and university of minnesota please welcome us to on negative join us to welcome

our guests. [applause] >> it is nice to be here. islet foreword to the next hour of engagement with you. if you want to turn this off you can. i am going to tell you a story today. in the context of pakistan and one woman and also the celebration of women in pakistan said it resonates across borders this is about legislation we got in pakistan against sexual harassment these laws were passed in 2010 and i will tell you why it was so important. one reason was after years of militancy women were being pushed back in the last decade and a half and this was the first come back

and they regained their public space and their workspace so that was widely celebrated throughout the country the other reason was we had a long gap of legislation and pakistan and i don't count the small laws that modify a little something but the last progressive legislation was in the mid-50s. switch has been a very long time and now it opened of space for women so it was good for pakistan and it also opened doors for many other programs of legislation just because that magical chemistry open the doors and we were able to get seven program in legislation passed over the last few years and i was a big breakthrough for us and looking back as to how

little started, that is the other part of the story which the book is about and that is my own story is in idle biographical case study that i have a pen down. i was young doing my graduate studies in the united states and i was thrilled about going back after my a ph.d. and i wanted to work for women that was my desire from when i was 10 years old because when you grow up in pakistan and in many countries it is the of restrictions that define you then you fight back how to tread water and to become a socialized woman and i was very clear i would be educating myself and preparing myself to work on women's issues so i was very happy to return to pakistan after my studies and while

looking for jobs i finally landed the u.n. job that was close to my heart and about what i wanted to do about women's issues and i became the head of the gender unit and i developed the gender units for them. this is with the united nations development program in pakistan so that was the beginning of my process and as i developed the program and went about i myself experience a lot of sexual harassment in the office and that was there a difficult to handle because i feel you can handle it better on the streets it is difficult to handle when you know, the person and face them every day and when you know, that person has a lot of control over what you're doing. you need his professional

help and that became difficult but i was not sure how to handle that because i did now want to resign. that is a simple way out. and i was so focused on pakistan and then as i develop to the program i couple of things happened. with a crystal clear focus it was more on development but the gender focus came through this program and the other thing is i hired a lot of women. and there was a load of women and without our the any checks and balances and the hierarchy with favoritism is suddenly became a very big.

in the reason why i was not able to do that earlier is this man was quite senior in the office that was the head of the u.n. program in pakistan. he was so close he was the blue-eyed boy. everything right or wrong he could get away with and when i finally did make a complaint or he went overboard and fired a woman. so we talked and the woman and i decided to file a complaint as the news spread out lee realized every woman was experiencing the exact same thing and eventually

"working with sharks" got together who were brave enough to say we want to launch a complaint. others said that our jobs are too important even though he does the same thing to us. said using his power and authority if he had to sign a memo he would make us it and sit and talk about his relationship with his girlfriend or the sexual relationships with his wife and things like that. making advances that made us feel extremely humiliated with gestures. the lesson at that moment of my life silences the biggest defense we were quiet and

working together but yet we had no discussions about his behavior. and learning that at least we had to talk to each other constantly. during the investigation process we had the fact anything that comes across online among the 11 there was one who was 50 years old and one british woman, one japanese the rest were pakistan needs ranging between the ages of 50 and 22. i was a manager we had an intern also and there were people there 20 years. there was a whole range of women saying the same thing.

so we thought we gather the courage and that is it. that if we speak out the problem will be solved and the assumptions were proven wrong because the problem started at that point* the nation saw the was not the harassment but the investigation in process and what happened to us after that. and the representative was a british and was very dismissive of the whole issue. he looked around and he looked at me and said to me do you know, pakistan the women they get harassed all the time. making it look like you

women get harassed all the time so what is the big deal? so what if my blue-eyed boy has done that to you? and said i would be very surprised if there was a sexual harassment. [laughter] his whole mission was to scare us, a divide us, the senior management tried to bribe them with money and they would try to break us apart. things happened that i have no other english word to describe the shameless. they have one woman who lost her job they tried to paper and write it down you will not be a part of this. another bowman was set for an evaluation like her annual contract and they wrote very nasty comments and said we will put this in your assessment and

terminate the contract unless you write i have nothing to do with this case very openly and this went on when we invoked new york. our resident was not going to do that. so we reached out and said we are following the press because now you can not go outside the system with the united nations. but i remember headed by a of man and two women doing everything according to the process the senior management was holding hands

like the old boys' club and this man was spinning his fist on the table and saying to me you tell me what did you do to make can feel he could do that? i said what year m.i.t. in? what were you wearing, what did you say to him? and to me so full of praises of the man who was obviously with the tie-breaking performance of the report that they finally gave it was about this man and the report said in his very competent and is upset he

actually reach out to women and men both for sympathy and the sympathy is when he would tell us sexual stories that was him reaching out for sympathy. and his record is beautiful and enough evidence in four cases. so we said you should look at our record and our performance as if we were of a genetic group and not even it listed we were 11 women of different departments are ages or nationalities they said we would not take your case we will cut it and make

it into 11 cases. and to hide the information from us and because i was the head of the gender unit and compared to the iranian person look at the last 10 years of records and find anything you can get and it was written he showed it to me that he asked for anything wrong in the last figures. it was so open and shameless it was unbelievable that this would get messy and there were rumors about the sand and pakistan may have to be careful how people perceive us. social image is what matters

a woman could be ruined if you start rumors about the reputation. and then the management would not take steps and things started to leak out in the press but this retaliation business was so painful in the open retaliation resulted in a strange dynamics within the office. people stop talking to us because they did not want to be on the other side so the lines were drawn and 11 women on one side and everybody else on the other. that people would see them and aligning against up off so the whole environment reminded me of family to realize that you have been

assessed in the house and there is a strange silence nobody wants to talk about it but it is very heavy to cut it with the knife. but regardless of our complaint we have to work that way and after the first initial inquiry he got suspended and was given to lawyers, we did not have any we could not use the office phones or the office time for our meetings and he was given a car, driver car, driver, international telephone, except it was amazing the difference that was very obvious. it was not even settle. one more point* gradually they pushed us out. they totally sabotage our program that was like my child in front of my eyes so i had to make sure the

program moves on but they were hoping i would resign in to be the end of the case because i was heading the gender units but one by one they pledged every woman about and they finally pushed the head office in the case got to the point* and the three of us were asked to come to the hearing as witnesses. we had one week of investigations the that you have to read in the book. [laughter]

but i did have some satisfaction that i myself tried to pursue the case to find a case against the management because they treated us like you're treated their wishes and that is how we were hunted so we want to pursue a case and they said they would not touch it. so that was the incomplete so even after the case was concluded the way they treated us was not respectful. that your case concluded this is what we found out that we were not employees when that case concluded in

pakistan with a civil society got together and said this is a win for women to high lay a program and then do october 1997 from that day onward the civil society marks that day with different programs they get together with a family in december. even after of a little bit of feeling we came back to this issue and said if that can happen in to us women that have been educated abroad in the office of the united nations, with the

so-called progressive people then how do they manage it when they work in a factory without written contracts or in the field with the very power hierarchy and landlords? so it is within the pakistan a context a we decided to launch a movement that this issue comes in the way everywhere we turn so the minute we stepped out of the house we go to a hospital, university, everyw here we are faced with this and women reassured us 100 percent of the women were experiencing that. but yet it was a wind visible that those still got attention but that was happening with everybody and not getting any attention. we did not have a name or a word for it so first of all,

we coined the term. but then nobody all-out us to use it because that was an uncivilized term and we kept saying to them it is okay to do that but not to speak about it. and we decided we did some research that there is no organization research in with the united nations also in the beginning i did not know there is the anti-sexual-harassment policy. we kept asking for any policy and they said no. it was just by chance they had a policy eight years ago.

with the bravery and the persistence if the u.n. did not have the anti-sexual-harassment policy even one not of 1,000 women get the courage to speak up we need a hook so we develop the anti-sexual harassment policy for pakistan oriented to our culture. we kept that in mind and based on research and then we got a consensus from different sectors and now i would like the slides because i will show you a little bit of our journey. so we went out and approach women of different profess -- professions in we got them together to form an alliance that meighen's hope

also an alliance against sexual harassment. this is like minded groups and women from all sectors of society. from working in a the factory doctors we clearly discuss the case and got an agreement to have a strategy where we would first deal with the private sector and then they would criminalize the behavior for the rest of the country. so i will go through that we have union leaders and civil society and private sector but we thought they were very important and we learned about them and they've learned about us and

they figured out who we were and we did convince them to start using that policy and then there was a regime that they did not want to take a rest and told us they do not want us to use the word sexual-harassment or there would not sit at the table. so we coined another term. [laughter] called the code of conduct for gender justice and they said now we can come. [laughter] so we have a lot of stars on board from television television, people who are dear to data public it we got them involved to give an award to the best organizations with gender we also got the religious ones on our side also a gave them

religious evidence to back us. so we drafted to pieces of legislation then in 2008 with the return on democracy that is some of the women parliamentarians there are 200 right now we're very proud of these women. the ambassador is in blue. who was a very honest and brave parliamentarian. and the woman with dark glasses is for a minister of pakistan. the one on top is a speaker.

so we started to lobby for the legislation with all the parties because we wanted them to endorse parliament as the main focus as we lobbied to a half years. but finally every party got ownership in the will not go into the details but eventually begot the legislation passed. the speaker of the national assembly was supportive with working women sitting in the galleries. but the democracy has flourished in we have seen a lot of indicators to

strengthen but the parliamentarians were having a connection that was very emotional. we were celebrating with lawyers, teachers, doctors, all of them were connected. this was passed in the house and in the senate and finally the president of pakistan normally it is a bureaucratic process that this begins with the whole nation mobilized to say i want to do it in the big event in the presence of 100 women of substance so they were invited from the home country and was celebrated everywhere throughout urban women and programs all over the country to celebrate that.

and like i mentioned but i come back to my case because why now? and once we started to implement the law it started to fall in place in the first year we got 1,000 cases with the result of sexual harassment. what i saw was regardless of the mechanism the stigma and the retaliation part were still there and even though it has passed it has not changed and there were so many complaints that women found their way back that we cannot even mention of space an environment is best that you cannot talk about the

stigma of the complaint. and that is why i thought we should start speaking out nobody even knew about the case. and we should start speaking out and ask for the others to stand in solidarity. unless we create room there will be complaints. . .

>> the stigma and the occurrence of the issue is still common, in every country, i went to japan, a month ago, but it was everywhere mountain public place and offices. i felt it was something we really not need to divide up the world, and this is a part of the world where women have problems issue and had -- this is a part of the world that has outgrown. we need a bond of solidarity and talk about hour struggles because i feel like countries like pakistan, one cation of rape happens, they put it in the media, op a flag, and it goes round and round not understanding the dynamics and not knowing anything about the struggle. i know there was a case in the

papers awhile ago, but for the last four years, we have been having a struggle and movement that actually culminated in passage of one legislation, and the other one is on the way, but the media doesn't really talk about our struggles and our improvements or changes that we -- that the struggles culminate in, and so i thought that this book, especially in the united states printing this year, would also mean that i am, at least on my behalf making an attempt to share our struggles. i hope that you will stand in solidarity with me, share our struggles, talk to others about it too because it's not just that we have violent cases or any country for that matter have violent cases, but all these struggles, decades olds

struggles figging against century's old governments, not just one country or one government, but i would be very happy to hear your comments after you read my book, and i would open it up to questions. ♪ >> [inaudible] had a sexual harassment case against him, and the system forced the woman so hard for so long ultimately into instances that demeaned women that actually got something going so opening up the door now to questions, and anybody who has a

question raise your hand. >> i worked with the department of lay bosser, and this is a subject i followed for a long time. i'm curious, i wonder if you tell us more about what the pakistani law you talk about actually provides, and also, curious if you've looked at the issue internationally, what countries do you think have particularly strong laws or particularly strong enforcement? i think in this country, we have a law that's been established for many years that governs sexual harassment because it's up to the women who complain for

the most part for right to sue and to try to have the rights, a long hard road, expensive, emotionally draining, and so we have the law, but it's difficult for women to achieve justice. >> the first part was about the u.n. law or -- >> the pakistani law and what it provides. >> okay. should i take each question? >> yes. >> okay. we have two now. one is an amendment in our pakistan code, our mainstream criminal law, and the amendment defines sexual harassment and says if it happened with this behavior, and it is punishable by law, and it's imprisonment

also. the other is performance sector requiring the managements of every organization sexual harassment policy prescribed in the law, and also requires them to have a three member inquiry committee and details required of them so every organization has its own mechanism. it provides for an on budsman outside the law. in terms of other countries, the research, there are pretty good documentation by the law about this, which country has done what, but some of the's asian countries, i think, have good -- like, i think malaysia has good legislation. in south asia, pakistan has the strongest one, but sri lanka has amendments as well as bang bangh and afghanistan have amendments. norway and the scandinavian countries have answers to interrogatories legislation, and that is --

have strong legislation, and that is working well too. i have a comment about the study of all the countries. usually, people divide that up in two big schools of thought. the remedies, but one is focused on the right with the usa, the civil rights, and the other is more focused on the behavior. our legislation falls into the behavior so we don't go after the companies and ask for big amounts to -- what is that called? compensation, so there are different kinds of laws. here, the big expense sageses, i do not know, i have not done a full analysis whether it's worked or now -- sometimes i feel companies do talk and things to be clear of that so they have had so many hours of training and this and that so they are scott free. we did all that. we could. in pakistan, it's the other way

around. there we are making management offense. we are not, like, stomping on the management, and we are saying, listen, anybody can be a harasser. get your system strong so it works the other way around so the burden is on the management for implementation, but actually the punishment is for the individual. >> it is so good to hear about you and pakistan. >> thank you. >> i have to salute you and all the wonderful women you mobilize throughout the country.

i have a couple questions. have your research in the sexual harassment area led to other right measures like the employment regimely, domestic violence, ect., and sec question, of course, [audience boos] -- of course -- [inaudible] did none of them ever -- were none of them made aware of this page? none of them intervene or supported it in any way? >> okay. first question, yeah, the laws did actually had a lot of spinoff benefits if -- for women, and because the laws

were passed and there was a nationwide applaud that the parliament was open to the other laws, and when we took the other laws they were passed because of this one, and, also, the issue is so tabooed. even the sexual assaults and rape and these issues, but now the people have started, even the prime minister, and sexual antiharassment law, okay, now the word is getting very popular it is now creating a space where everyone they come out of this space, rather than saying incest, which they will not do op television, they are saying sexual harassment is now a household term. now nay are saying sexual harassment at home, sexual harassment here. under that, actually, a lot of sexual violence and sexual assault and rape is comes, which is good, fine, we'll find other terms. rape, we have not a new term yet

for rape, but we are coming close to that. your second question about the u.n.. when we got the case, and we headed outside the system because the big panel was racing people outside, other u.n. agencies were supportive, and we got a lawyer at that stage also who was extremely good, and you'll read all about him in the book, and that is where we got support. after that, the incompleteness of the case remains. after that, nobody really approached us, have been though the u.n. system started training, you know, so the managers are required to take one, two, three courses. those kinds of things happen. they started a task force, but nothing really has happened in the mind set of the culture, i believe, and i still am open to anybody, you know, if you have connections with the u.p., in is the opportunity with the book coming out and the case coming

out, if somebodyy wants to close the case, we'll talk to them. we would like that to get the way i put it is that i really feel like the dead body is yearning for a buyer, and i think that it'll be very nice to have this completed in our lives, and so we can really move on. you know, there's loose strings there that there's a lot of anger there still because of the management. it'll be very nice if anybody senior in the u.n. system approaches us. >> reading about india's process recently, six young men charged with that, and the women in india are uprising on this. are you -- i'm not familiar with any laws -- do they have similar

laws to the ones you talkedded about in i i india and anythingy can do to help the women there to really get on board and try to strike out for a better life free of harassment. >> sexual harassment has been pending for last three years. there's mobilization, has not been passed yet, have legislation on rape, good judgments on rape also, but thewomen's movement is pushing for legislation, especially related to evidence. i'm hopeful, we do connect up a bit, even though i think we have had more connection with other countries, incomes of sexual harassment. in afghanistan, they started a movement based on ours because they were happy with it. their movement was called, and

they focused on university. they got their first domestic violence legislation with an amendment on sexual harassment, and right now we are dealing, helping out with legislation, and chinese also got all our documents and translated in chinese, and i went there, also, to give. there is some connection. i hope more can happen, more can happen, yes. >> first of all, i commend you on valiant and brave actions again. my question has to do with more in the future. what's your opinion on how to bring change to the systems present in the setting like pakistan, particularly in, you know, the old tribal institutions? >> i think i believe in a

two-pronged approach. we can't go with one approach or the other. the more the accountability, the more for mind shift also. that, i would say, in terms of global change that patriarchs still exist in almost all the countries. it comes close to a balanced agenda, balanced, but otherwise in our countries, it is more in our faces, and in other countries, and more glossed over and subtle, but i think that patriarch has deep roots yiewn veer sly. it should never be men against women. that's how our movement, and in pakistan, there's an organized

women's movement k making fulsz when things don't happen the way we want to. the patriarch needs to be realized, and it has to occur in both men and women. when my book talks about harassment, at the same time, i talk about very positive relationships also, and i met my husband in the u.n. office, and -- [laughter] so it's -- it's not about gender relations. it's not we want segregated work environment or anything at all, but you need to know how to be professional and keep your other kinds of relationships outside the environment, work environment. i think that the study should be working and transformation of gender relations.

>> [inaudible] young boys relearn lessons taught at home which they had to use and does not work as well for girls. yes, yes. >> so -- >> thank you very much. thank you for being here. really enjoy listening to your very positive attitude moving forward and mobilizing people for across the classes and country. i work for the world health organization in the americas

also the american health organization, and there were discussionings about whether entitled to those, headquartered here in washington, there should be a separate gender unit, pakistan issues of gender equality always in the amount, and whether that should be embedded in each department. the decision, ultimately, was made of change because at that time was to have a separate gender unit. one of the biggest issues in latin america and their situation how very much you said, was working with enforcement issue, said there's policies in place, but what happened? the attitude among the police in latin america was very much, you know, i don't mean to be stereotypical, but the latin macho-man image. well, you know, your husband hit you, go make dinner.

it'll be better tomorrow. have you dealt with enforcement and specifically with the police and courts in pakistan? >> okay. the first part of the question, i forgot, before police? yeah, about the dichotomy of separate gender unites or not. that has been debated for a long time, i think. i belong to the field of development also because that's where my career has been mostly. i think that it really depends on the target group, and at times, there's absolutely no harm in having a separate agenda unit, even though there's women in development, and, you know, women in a small basket and greating the word "gender," and they use that word just to replace women, and they sometimes wish, oh, there is gender here too, as if -- [laughter] not see gender as a relationship

part between women and men. i think it's all right to push that agenda separately also, but not make the point that mainstream is so bias at times, that just joining the mainstream is also not good enough. it's really about transforming the mainstream and having the issues there too because otherwise -- otherwise many women join the mainstream thinking they need to masculinize themself, and joining the man's team does not mean you get into the same power struggles. there has to be a transformation of the mainstream too, and then you join. we had to work with the police. it was not just to implement.

we add like a parallel movement with the police, and we got their women involved now. our police have a lot more women than it used to. we got them to pass an internal order just about the same time our law got passed. that was after two years struggle. they got an internal order that actually set up their committees, and acknowledges a lot of women that the police were experiencing. we had a law to redeem themselves, have a committee, receive complaints, look at their own internal systems, and then we got them to start training how to help out others. we do regular lek lectures in the police academy and judicial academy. the judicial academy is not as forthcoming as the police was. the police want more women to

transform their culture to whatever extent they could, but they do want more women there. >> we're going to close at this point because we want to make sure we sell some of these wonderful books that are going to be out there. on behalf of everybody here and all those who are going to be listening to your lecture on c-span, a very, very big thanks to you, and as a small gesture of appreciation from the women's national democratic club, thank you for coming. [applause] >> at the action conference in washington, d.c., return to order, from an organic christian

society, how we've. , how we got here, and where we need to go. tell me about your book. >> well, my book talks about the lack of restraint in mod earn economy, and how it is frean -- frenzied and out of control. we have to talk about family, community, and faith that keep it in balance. that's what it's about. look at the present economic crisis, propose real solutions on timeless principles. >> how do those social parameters affect the economy? >> it definitely does affect the economy. what we lost in the economy, and what i say in the book is that we lost that human element that creates the bonds of trust and confidence that makes free markets possible, what they call social capital, those trusts that make and create atmosphere for prosperity to happen. >> what your thoughts on current

budget issues in congress right now? >> i think there's a sense of the problem. i coin a term in the book call talking about the lack of restraint. this idea that you have to have everything now regardless of the consequences, this -- this restless spirit in modern economy that has implications, of course in government and ere fields. >> what would your fix be? >> what we call organic christian society as we have where people are treated like living beings, not machines, one rooted in community, family, and faith, with a lot of social ties and natural leadership and inspired by christian principles. >> john, author of "return to order to an organic christian society." thank you so much. >> all right.

>> bob dean the association director of communications of the defense council, author of a new book "wreckless, political assault on the american environment." tell me about the book. >> in the last two years, we have seen the single worst legislative assault in our history against safeguards we depend on to protect our air, waters, wildlife, and land. we have seen 300 votes in the house of representatives meant to water down, undermine, delay, or block all together needed protections, and this has gone after the clean water act, the clean air act, the endangered spee seeses act like the app lags mountains, gulf of mexico, the agree #* great -- great lakes, endangering our children and health. we felt like the american people needed to know about this, and

here's why. the american people did not ask for this wreckless assault, but somebody else did. the corporate polluters who spend hundreds of millions of dollars every year pumping up the campaign coffers who takes an agenda on capitol hill. we felt the story needed to be told because they care about the future, and when people want to understand, gee, why haven't we made progress on climate change or progress on safeguarding our people from fracking, our communities, ranches, farms, why aren't we doing anything about the threats to the future? this tells the story why it's happening, and, importantly, the republicans have led this assault, but this is not who the republican party has been dishoerically, and we make that point in the book. going back to teddy roosevelt, richard nixon, who created the environmental protection agency, ronald reagan who got led out of the gasoline, george hw bush going after acid rain. republicans have a history of

responsible stewardship of the environment. the hard right turned the party, pivoted away from its path and from conservative care. we make that point in the book. >> in the book, you talk about the house of representatives, focusing on republicans. look at democrats in regards to this. >> they tended to be from fossil fuel states, states reliant on the fuels of the past. we have to continue to invest as a country in renewable fuels and energy efficiency, solar, wind, and make that case while we continue to use a lot of coal in the country, a lot oil, and a lot of gas, we need to be moving closer, not overnight, but over time. >> president obama done enough in regards to environmental regulation and legislation? >> president obama has worked very hard to make progress, but

we -- there's a lot more left to be done. a couple quick examples. president obama worked hard with the auto makers to double the fuel efficiency of the cars by 205 to save consumers a hundred million dollars at the pump, cut emissions from automobiles in half, good progress. an opportunity for a second term is to go ahead and reduce the car bop from the single largest source, which is coal fired fire plants. reduce carbon emissions and epa positioned now to issue new standards that make a lot of progress in that. we have to support it. >> you heard about the 2010 house of representatives, and the 2012 # house of representatives does not look very different. what do you think? >> fundamentally unchanged the complexion, but we hope republicans and democrats alike reach across the aisle, find commonground around ways to go after climate change, for example. we just finished the hottest summer on record in this country. we had epic draught wiping out

half the corn, 60% of the pastureland. ranchers were liquidating their herds. we hope that people of good will, leaders from both parties reach across the aisle saying we have to do something about climate change. we've got to do something to make fracking safe for our communities, our farms, ranches. we have got to continue to make progress on the issues that affect the health of our children. >> talking with bob dean, associate directer of communications for the national resources defense council, author of the new book "wreckless," thanks so much. >> thank you.