i only deal for two months of the nixon presidency. that sort of covers this story from their first meeting north of san francisco and ended with staff in 1969. >> one cent at the man did you get?

hour. >> good evening. my name is bill kauffman and i'm here to welcome you to the booktalk series.

i also want to thank the federal society for cosponsoring tonight's talk. tonight's program features logan beirne, the author of a new book on america's first chief executive entitled "blood of tyrants: george washington and forging of the presidency." this is very much a young law school book. it began as a paper while logan was a law student. the paper was written under the supervision of william eskridge. after graduation in 2008, working two years in a law firm, logan returned to yale law school in 2010 and began turning the paper into the book we feature tonight. appropriately we have william eskridge with us to comment on the boat. he's the author and the articles

cover a wide range of topics. several of his books have been featured in previous booktalk series sponsored by her library. according to a recently published study by my colleague, fred shapiro, mr. eskridge is one of the most cited in that i think that was probably a mistake. professor eskridge is a dynamic and innovative teacher and a wonderful mentor to young scholars like logan. without further ado, i will turn it over to logan. >> thank you very much. i would like to add professor bill eskridge is fitting for this talk because he's a descendent of george eskridge, the godfather of our nation.

when george washington's mother was orphaned at 13, george eskridge tucker and i named her firstborn son after him. so thank you for coming today. >> wait a minute. now logan beirne -- he's quite right, the logan beirne is also the site of distinguished workers who have relationship to george washington. as most of you know, george washington participated in the french and indian war that was probably his first real military experience. one of the officers serving under an ominous decorated his officer dan branch, who is a lineal ancestor pious mother's side and indeed after import model, one of the few battles george washington one, he turned

the other this -- general braddock to his trusted and decorated officer, officer dandridge. we have that here today, which we will award to logan beirne. [applause] which makes logan beirne would appropriate out there for today's book. >> they carried braddock's body in it, so i might take it off. it is funny because professor eskridge at night, our go back to colonial virginia. the last time we were speaking about politics that started a revolution. so are we sure this is safe? >> young law school is a hotbed of rest. >> said his ancestry and heritage comes into this book quite a bit, by and being

revolutionary heritage, but also fascinated by the fact each and everyone of us has a rich family heritage and it's important we remember that and learn from it. this is on our national collective heritage and what we might learn from the founders when they were forging what it meant to be the american commander-in-chief during war. so this book actually started way, way back when i was very young. my father would take us to a reenactment of the battle of lexington every year without fail and they would be a freezing cold morning in april and we be watching reenactors have a little battle. my favorite part was the breakfast afterwards. we would go to this little restaurant and it was wonderfully hokey.

the waiters and waitresses who dress up in costumes and they would act the role of different patriots. my father had a dry sense of humor with torture the man dressed as washing and to try and make him break character. it was hysterical. a guy every year would laugh essentially. so fast forward a decade or two later, sitting in professor eskridge's constitutional law class. you decide article ii, section two commander-in-chief clause. all this has is the president shall be commander in chief of the army and navy and it doesn't say much more. however, presidents throughout history have cited this commander-in-chief power for various meanings, whether as prisoner torture, military commissions, power vis-à-vis

congress, all sorts of powers have been read into this cause. so you say too bad we can't ask the founders that they had in mind. i instantly thought of that waiter tonight that why don't we just ask him? i did the next best thing. i went to the library virtually so how can you go through the tones of primary sources and the excellent collection we have of documents and diaries and newspaper clipping. we got a thorough look at what the founders were saying to another and what they believed and understood the term american commander-in-chief to need. sure enough i kept working on it and try to make first drafts. do you remember what she said? >> i like the title. it is george versus george versus george.

george washington, george the third and george w. bush. >> is right. i was comparing the three. he liked the title, but you asked for more. so here is more. so i kept on working and eventually evolved into the we have coming out in the next couple of weeks. what really struck me when i was doing my research was a quote from washington come over he foundation was decided not to during a gloomy age of ignorance and superstition, but during an epic for the rights of mankind were better understood and more clearly defined in this auspicious. the united states came into existence as a nation and citizen shall not be completely free and happy. the file would be entirely their own. i saw that as a personal

challenge to each and everyone of us to learn about this auspicious. and understand what was happening to see what the founders got together after the revolutionary war to read the constitution. who is at the front and center as the president of the constitutional convention was george washington commander-in-chief and decide what it meant to be the commander in general and the president they were creating with this constitution. every new george washington would be the first president. in fact when it came time to elect him, he received every single vote. so as i was researching the book, i came across also it's a fascinating and gc in some of

candlelit stories, some of which sounded like they were headlines from today regarding torture, regarding military commissions. were still discussing the mastermind of 9/11 10 years after his capture and what rights does he deserve? they were debating the same things back then or even congress meddling in the president's war powers. as a big discussion during the revolutionary war as well. i'd like to start off with other stories as well with one story in particular because it helps establish a recurring principle i found time and time again while writing this and that is the divide between the president and commander-in-chief power over foreign nationals in defending a from foreign forces versus his power over american

citizens and what power does he have to defend us from one another. so the story begins in a small band in upstate new york, the husband of her pain right now when you think of west point, he think a well manicured lawns, you think of our nations military elite rushing to and from classes. think of monumental size buildings. you don't realize back in 1780 was a fledgling four that helped the state of the nation. basically the british were interested in capturing the entire hudson never because they wanted to cut off the rebellious new england states from the rest of the nation and as george washington said that would end of evolution if they were able to do so. so that the americans did not have a navy ourselves constructed a land-based

defense. benedict arnold, he knew how valuable this was, so he concocts a planned to sell it for approximately 26 million u.s. dollars today. for the story gets most interesting everyone knows about benedict arnold. it gets no answer seemed when you talk about his coat about his co-conspirators. john andre was british head of intelligence under clinton and joshua have been smith. so when it came time for benedict arnold to betray his country, he met with john andre to formulate a plan of attack and give him the plans of west point and let him know where to best attack for a in order to

quickly win. they met on the side of the hud said, from west point in a wooded area and they were bickering the whole night about how to best he thinks. you've heard of arnold. you could see how his son is very amenable fellow. he was still squabbling about the price. he was going on and on. sure enough the sun comes up while they are still talking. under a ship fired upon in the future you see it. so he's trapped. so arnold says okay, smith, andre kamath lets go back to smith's house and figure out another way to get you back to safety and british control of new york city. so they go back to the house and arnold says quick, put on

smith's jacket. this will despise you so everyone will think you are an american. to me a favor and read with him back down to new york city to make sure he's safe. so everything seems great. they come to about tarrytown in westchester and smith by this point is pretty tired. he spent the whole night in a couple nights before and wants to go back and sleep, so he turns around. sure enough six miles after their part, andre's job by militia men in the strip search them and find the plans to west point in his boots. but if the whole plan starts too unravel and arnold gets wind of this and he escapes. he gets away and then washington finds out and quickly send his

men. it's very straight theme is he has -- washington house at his disposal at this point john andre, the british officer in the american citizen, the loyalist involved in the exact same plot. they both have damning evidence against them. he says to smith and his interrogating had, i have enough evidence to a new on yonder tree. but it doesn't. instead for smith he provides them with a court martial, which is a type of military trial dating back to 13th century in which there are some safeguards in an element of due process to make sure they have a fighting chance to defend themselves. the panel is charged with

deciding whether this man is guilty or not. so after about a think it was four weeks of trial, smith has damning evidence against him to have all these witnesses testifying, saying the familiarity between andre and status and showing the code snippet used to describe a british officer, which is a big no-no. despite that, at the end of the trail they find out because he's an american, he has a high burden of proof. we have to prove he knew what he was doing was wrong and they couldn't. but the high burden, he was acquitted. in fact, they were so shocked the civilian authorities took them back to prison on other

charges. but he was actually a slippery character escape back to new york. andre state was far different. instead, washington it is the resolution on the books that says enemies of the sort shall be tried by court partial. instead, he doesn't sound thing. he creates the military commission. sometimes mirrors a court-martial, but it doesn't have to. there's no right to due process. it is at the whims of the commander to determine whatever rules he want. it's seen as sort of a quick and dirty way to punish the accused. and i've been looking to see if the man is guilty. they think of what punishment

and assume he's guilty. so under a receives -- i shouldn't even call it a trial, but a two-day trial in which they basically been some evidence, adventured hearsay can stand instead out as defenseless and friendless. sure enough he's hanging. he fell for this young andre because you realize the real enemy was arnold and this young man is a very likable character. he was caught in this sort of us. but at the same time, washington felt very strongly but his role as american commander-in-chief was to defend the nation and he needs to send a strong signal that those who crossed him and

potentially harmed his people, they'll be punished severely. so the title of the book is called "blood of tyrants." i gave it that title after the famous jefferson mind, the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time but the blood of pastries and tyrants, which i find very startling if you think about it. i think the founding fathers and the whole generation in general sought to create the government we have now in the constitution we still use to spare us the they endured. they wanted to create a public where people were protected. so they're about to give the presidency the power to protect us from foreign tyrants. but not so much power he could become a tyrant himself.

thank you. i look forward to questions and hope to work in more stories. >> grave. let me say a few words really following him okemos presentation. i wrote a blurb for the book. it is quite a page turner. books about george washington. what's not to like about that? it is quite an excellent page turner. the reason the original impetus of the whole project is to think about the commander-in-chief clause has been a focal constitutional argument for a number of cases. i was one of president truman legal justifications, relying on opinions with fdr for the proposition that commander-in-chief clause gave the president in time of war some authority to confiscate property on american soil.

so we see that as long-ago import moment in the case that we continue to see it in the war and terror and most recently on the debate over president obama's continued engagement in the libyan hostilities. apparently contrary to the meeting of the worst power which followed law school thinks is constitutional. as he told my class, it's not constitutional ayes applications. apparently the obama administration thoughts would be a constitutional for congress to provide too many limits on the president's power to can act hostility against libya. where the czar, we don't know. the commander-in-chief clause is a very constitutional provision. look at this project is the

first one to give some legal purchase on what might have been the original meaning of the commander-in-chief clause. but this is drafted in philadelphia, the only commander-in-chief was george washington. they certainly did not have george the third in wind. either governors and i'm. after the heads of the militias in the states is also not their model. but instead, their model if they had one was george washington. one of the many things focused book does a wonderful detail gives you an idea the fact that george washington and the reasons he was claimed. it is not a successful general. he was not an attention grabber.

he was not a self publicist. sos notwithstanding all that he became this universally admired figure and as a model to the commander-in-chief clause. so it's extraordinary relevant, both as a constitutional matter and thinking about either the original meaning or the ongoing need for the commander-in-chief clause to know sent them about the experience that produced this cause. i think as everybody expected, george washington was then the first president and first commander-in-chief under article ii, section two of the constitution. you have to read the book to get the full flavor of the hoboken has given me this wonderful story of the court-martial of military commissions. three things that occur in the book. the book does have bearing and

this is a good reason to read it as well if you want to talk about torture in military commissions which our contemporary issues and had parallels during the revolution but washington was commander-in-chief. he did take liberties to torture what we would consider torture the enemy soldiers that have fallen into his path and he did on some occasions to play military commissions rather than court herschel to even ask if you spies from other sites. it's very interesting and there's three broader lesson they recur throughout the book. the one that struck me the most that i think remains tourmaline today is a structural matter is that there was about it if congress for most, but not entirely all a george washington's tenure as

commander-in-chief. i was very struck and you could even write another book on this, and how utterly respectful washington was at the instruction that he got from congress. so this is someone who is off to an aggressive, not bashful about using the power he picked a good. he also followed this approach during his presidency. he was very interested in the views of the content of congress. he was respect over the continental congress pastor rick is a generally followed them. this book is a wonderful example of what a republican theory such as the animated the revolution itself of the principle of the constitution after the revolution, what that might mean for the commander-in-chief. this insert degree of humility

that washington displayed as commander-in-chief towards the direct use of the continental congress. and i might add, this is the same point. there is an extraordinary amount of humility washington displayed with regards to go out for nation. so even when he would be delegated discretion by the content of congress for this wonderful treatment upon her in the character we have a plunder is the 18th and 19th century was antistate. and remembering this, please correct me on more than one, would execute his own people for engaging in plunder contrary to his instructions. in other words, taking food,

property, et cetera, et cetera. this is not only where he was authorized by the cot in the congress to take food and property and did not, but in deference to what he can figure law of war or with the law for should be a general washington's hand. so i think that's very remarkable and that's the first workable thing about this account, which i think helps us understand the original meaning of the commander-in-chief clause and provide some lessons for thinking about it going forward. second point -- second point which is also important is that if you are the commander-in-chief, washington provided the first example and it will be followed by subsequent examples of the

inherent dynamism that comes with being a commander-in-chief. in other words, you can mount the law of war, directives from the continental congress. you can have even a grimace on the part of washington and his own generals. but the conditions of the battlefield, the conditions of strategy beyond the battlefield, the conditions of the ongoing evolution of the political situation meant that george washington had hide improvised quite a lot. so even the faithful legion, which he revealed himself to be in one reason he was so universally admired. even the faithful agent was a highly dynamic reporter of the discretion as well as the restrictions adopted by the cardinal congress. sometimes he would refuse to exercise the discretion based upon what he thought was

appropriate and needed for the larger strategic deleterious goals he was vested with. one of many things focused book does is show you that many leaky parts of the ship that was there fighting for us in the revolution. bring every 50 pages were about ready to lose the entire shebang because of various circumstances. it's a very interesting take on the resolution. one of the things washington did, he responded brilliantly to terrible would violate restrictions on the cot, congress. in a constitutional interpretation. there's a third point, which is quite remarkable about this book

in which i never really thought about or even noted about about the american revolution. that is something sad or mccain would appreciate. senator mccain has been one of the leading and most construct is conservative voices of the whole torture debate and senator mccain have expertise since he didn't have an extremely celebrated career in the military and was himself tortured. someone who was himself tortured was in violation of laws were at a very capacious understanding of the limitations that should be legally and morally opposed upon the president. i spoke in sf for it, president washington did direct the torture on occasion of enemy soldiers who had been captured.

but i thought was interesting about tokens account was how rarely this occurred and tended to tight and trade notion of reciprocity. this is a big thing about the law of war generally. he sounded so interesting than the revolution that general washing 10, when he had reports that the british were mistreating and sometimes we did know the details of mistreatment were two discrete, but when washington would hear examples of reddish mistreatment of american prisoners, he would very often make a shadow or even a charade of i'm going to visit the same on prisoners we have teacher facing american forces. there is a kind of bargaining that went on in the revolution

between washington and officers on the british side about how prisoners support should've been treated. it's actually very interesting because it gives us an excellent insight into the way in which the ground-level, the way the rule of law operates. not just directives by conventions or by congress is a not just battlefield decisions made by the commanders, but also the dynamics of the treatment and the reciprocal print suppose that washington followed to some extent as well. by the way, for you law students, i think that would be another great book. write about the revolution from the british point of view. you know, the breath throughout

the entire book. however the washington forces were magenta on how is around new york city new york city, washington tells us he could've wiped them out. general cornwallis, overconfident in this. you know, this is the federalist society. is there not a tory branch of the federalist society? i was supervised. i am a tory. the mass of the teaching market, alan schwartz interviewed me for a job.

it is from the british point of view. we rather overly and i'm not so sure with such a great thing. that's a terrible thing for me to say that we actually won the revolution. we would have been in slavery 50 years later. after all, canada godfrey about the same time we did without shedding innocent lives. [laughter] so i'm actually kind of a tory and i do think there is a tory point of view to be written. a lot of these federalist society thoughts are shaking their head coming up, got my soul here. i think that would be very useful. that's a little bit of a diversion, but you see some of the larger normative implications that i hope stimulates more of a

conversation about the early practice that should inform our understanding of the commander-in-chief clause as well as larger separation of powers. >> professor deems to. >> we not only can about the fact he would have to be assimilating and integrating the south after the war was over. i am wondering what was going on during the american revolution and whether washington was motivated in his attitude about justice towards the troops i sent of loyalists would still be existing in the mid-in the event washington prevailed in the revolutionaries succeeded. >> absolutely.

that's an excellent point. the revolutionary war was a civil war. people forget that. about 40% of the population were patriots. another 40% were sort of in a friend. they would switch back and forth and the remaining 20% were loyalists. always fastening about the way washington approached it was these loyalists were still american citizens. they were seen as a dissenting minority within the republic. so if they broke the law of the majority created, they would be punished, but they were still american according to church washington. so when his soldiers to be starving, they would go out to loyalist homes particularly than they would ransack them. washington would do it thorough investigation and find these men

and sometimes have been executed. the thinking behind this was that this was a war in which he was trying to win the populace over and also define what it meant to be an american nation. so at the end of the day, most escapes, they went to britain or elsewhere, but he knew they would be staying and it'd be americans and and has republican values that each a street and with respect. >> your story about andre almost flies in the face of that logic in the sand -- >> the opposite. john andre, the british, he was hanged after two days in the

commission. but smith under the exact same circumstances as they loyalists and you'd think you'd be given the same treatment. he was then. he was given right, weeks and weeks of trial and he got off. >> dean step. we favor the microphone, though. >> thank you, logan. it's going to be fun to read this book. just a couple questions. first, let me just point out, andre had violated the laws of war by his actions, so he's going to be tried someplace. where would you suggest he be tried? it's not clear to me the international required courts-martial themselves. canada did not become independent until 1867.

they're a minor skirmishes before them. my real question is what about the articles -- >> slaves did not become free until 1866 in this country. that's about the same time. but the point of view of many americans, they were not free until the same time canada was. >> true. i was correcting the record that she said around the same time. but my real question has to do with the articles of confederation. uses the term commander-in-chief. one of the things that could not be done without the consent of the united states was appointed commander-in-chief. in fact, much of the articles are about making war. it's so interesting and they're really scared by this recent experience. i wonder if elected in a historical materials that

there's anything to learn from you. receiving the constitution. >> thank you very much. regarding andrea, i think washington did the right thing. the congressional resolution to safety as. however, washington realized he could not affect the validity of the message he needed to sign. so he used the military commission against andre had properly so. that's regarding the first point. regarding the articles of confederation, they were a bit of the mass. so washington was appointed commander-in-chief in 1775 before the articles were enacted. the articles -- the governing documents under which we were being governed, it was messy

because of a sort of coming in now, who was in charge. so initially, the continental congress micromanaged washington and they had various manes who covered the war effort. i sort of describe it as the war effort under the articles were sort of like a schizophrenic squirrel, jumping from problem to problem and trying to correct these mistakes and who's in charge. when we get to the battle of new york, washington doesn't think he can defend new york city. we have no navy were fighting the greatest navy honors. where he tried to defend an island? this is not washed on washington. he was smart enough to know he should not be defending this

island. congress is now, we expect you to make every effort to defend this. and they lose badly, not surprisingly so. at that time the british are chasing the continental army towards philadelphia, the seat of our government, that's when congress finally says, all right, this isn't working. when you change what it means to be the american commander and that's what they actually grant washington was dictatorial powers and adjust the makeup of how they're going to run this war. it originally was only for one week while they we convene in baltimore. an athlete, washington starts getting his act together. the congress does, just keep these people away from us. you could be a dictator. dictator back then was not a

dirty word that it is now. it just meant he had full military control to make decisions. he was a political dictator, where he can have edicts and cover and allow the congress never gave up their power over the people. over the military, he became the number one in charge. they kept extending this dictatorship over and over and that is sort of how they came to create this american commander-in-chief through fits and starts to begin with a weak commander in end up with a strong commander over foreign national. >> are you making an argument or at least a suggestion that the term commander-in-chief is used in the constitution nist about

previously in the articles refer to that commander-in-chief whom washington was at the end, where the continental congress had given them dictatorial powers as a military commander? >> that's absolutely right. an evolving term. originally the term didn't mean that much. as they learn from the war, he came to mean a whole lot more. >> do you have contemporaneous nose so reflections were letters i do the constitutional convention are previously balbis back edge? >> they do. the congressmen were debating this ferociously. washington himself was trying to determine, okay, i have all these powers now. which ones should i use?

which one should i not use? it was an experiment in america really was a great experiment from the start. .. can they talk funny in boston then? >> not yet. >> anyhow. [laughter] washington said, you know, wait a minute. i'm not the greatest gentleman in the world. i have the people trapped in one

town. they try to get out and can't get out. why don't we get them and end the war? you might ruin the town, no. you want to ruin boston? they beat the yankees today which i'm upset about. you had to remind me of that. [laughter] but in the book, logan has one couple of things that i think are very dramatic. one, the research he had me go around in circles researching some of that stuff. very true. he had -- george washington was 22 years at the time. he was with the british national guard and a surveyor, and the french were going to the lands and they would survey parcel of lands so many miles this way or that way. put a camp in the middle and say this is ours. the british decided we'll do the

same. they get ahold of washington who is a surveyor and military person. they sent him with a group of surveyors and builders do what the french were doing. he wasn't out too long when he ran to a group of ibd yab. the head indian wasn't known as a chief. i don't remember the chiefs, the head indian said, i'll help you out. i know, the french, they are not happy with you people being out here. we know the land. we have good parcel of land you would like to have. we'll help you keep the french away. washington 22 years old needs all the help he can get. the indians go off in front of them down the trail and come back and said, there's a group of french soldiers out looking for you. and they're on the way down. they'll be here in the morning.

unbeknownst to washington, the head indian, in this particular group, his father was killed by the french colonel the local colonel . >> the french that hate his father -- [inaudible] found no evidence of . >> he tells washington they're coming down here. and washington sets up a trap. an ambush and kims 46 -- kills 46 of them. later on, the king of england said that a young man in the colony started the french and indian war. the french didn't take too kindly to it happening. but when the they killed 26 french surveyors, workers, sold injure, whatever diplomatic

party. and the head indian brings the cornel, who killed his father. chops off the top of his head, reaches to the skull and brings out the brain. and says to his father, up in heaven, i avenge you father. george washington -- i think that would disturb me a little bit if it happened. george washington just stood there and wasn't much he could do. when he reported back to england as far as what went on, he said, we ran to some french military. the local indian help us subdue them. and the words he used was thrill of the bullets flying through the air and gave thrill to my heart. that was his interpretation during the battle. >> it impacted his approach. so originally when he was at

twos ton he was listening to every word of the war counsel that the congress said appointed for him. actually it was filled with novices that knew little about war. yet washington felt obligated to listen to every word they said. i came to boston. he listened to them during an attack. kay -- came to new york and didn't want to withdrawal early enough. he listens. once he becomes dictator, congress says you keep listening to that war counsel, go ahead and stop. so as the war concludes it's how to happened in the beginning of the war. the middle and the enhe feels any longer he became more confident to the ability of each. to dictate what the military was

going to do. and he knew that one commander and one person in charge. in order defend the nation. >> you use the word dictator. assuming powers that congress -- [inaudible] so describe it as a military dictatorerer us is a political dictator. as it went back to the roman republican when since given the powers in the roman senate really just disband and took full control. the americans, they love the classic. and they knew all about this. but they had their own twist on it. and their twist was that we give you as dictator all military

power over defeating the enemy. it came to political power, they felt retained at all. so washington was unique among revolutionary general in that he never declared marshall law. he -- whenever it came to a matter of american citizens, american property, he made sure to defer to the congress or the state authorities. so in the -- and the defined way of being of control over the military and tactful divisions he was dictator. when it came to a host of other political decisions that were being made, he was very careful to not infringe upon congress. >> other questions? yes, sir. thank you. i would like to follow up a little bit on the an dry smith

example. my understanding is an dry was tried as a spy where as smith is tried for treason. would it dick date legal procedures with regards to citizenship for either of them. >> it's true. they are both involved in the same conspiracy. they are both involved in the same plot. and washington, his knee jerk reaction was to have him hanged as well. but when it came down it, he wasn't as swayed by that as he was by the nationality and -- that's who originally vowed to be loyallests. they were americans and had rights. we are going have to potentially live after them after they win the war and trying to win the heart and miebdz of the american people. that was more the defining factor. because when it came for washington he was not looking at

distinguishing in that way as you are. he was more looking -- these two men were in can hoots. they worked together and almost sold west point. more domestic law than congress law. it was try bid court-martial. washington was making a bigger move in the an dry case. >> he was. going to the unauthorized tribunal. >> there was two resolution in the book. the first, against foreign enemy acting as spies. and then there was another resolution that directed americans that were procolluding with -- precluding with the enemy. both said we're going try them

by the court marble. they set up for the court march the due process protections, for example, the size of the board various -- the not right to counsel. there are safe guards in there to make it a fair trial. [inaudible] charge each individual. >> i think the question is what are the specific charges against andre and smith respectively? >> it was both for both of them it was for working to betray west point. they originally had ten charges

against smith and they narrow it down to one. very general you were working with the enemy to betray west point. and for andre, it was similar. it was you were working with benedict arnold to betray west point and you're doing so in deguise. >> followup on that. or whatever -- [inaudible] [laughter] >> i'm british but i promise i'm not a spy. i believe -- [inaudible] >> check him. >> welcome. [laughter] >> all right. my question is -- when we talk about war during the revolutionary period, you see things like a lot of maltreatment of prisoner, acceptability, and things like

-- [inaudible] or things like that. but we're not in that paradigm anymore. we've had convention try to stop things -- [inaudible] nawrnl how does it affect washington as president for military commissions and problems like that? >> that's an excellent point. washington did x and dismowld x today. instead, you know, i take the more humble approach where, you know, washington meant to be the american commander. i think it's important for us to

look at the american history basically it's important for anyone who believes believes in democracy to do so. you know in the preamble of the constitution it doesn't say congress to form a more perfect union or the president. it was the constitution formed by we the people. see what we the people fought when we were enacting article ii section ii. and, you know, back to today sure a lot has changed. for instance, you were mentioning how torture was often used for reprisal and sort of switch from that to a more individualized system of justice . the same time this history is important starting point for the investigations, and some people -- there's, you know, big debate

about originnism and how much weight you should give it. it's important precisely because major players believe so. for example, look at the washington, d.c., the heller division which the supreme court, both sides of the supreme court, are using these historical arguments to decide the cases. so it's originalism is alive and well, as we know. it's important to look at the history as at least a starting point as we discuss the issues. >> let me follow up on that, though. tell me if this is one of the lessons you can draw from your account. because i think one of the punch line of the book is the concept of the republican understanding of the commander in chief clause, and a major change circumstance is that we have the serious international commitments that are formally entered in to conventions.

had had a republican understanding of the job. which required him to be very attentive to the commitment that were made by the nation. now in 1770s were not in a position to make a lot of international commitment. but question. we didn't have a lot of statute on the book. we a lot of resolution. would you not say that one of the lessons of washington's experience is that the commander in chief has a constitutional obligation to take seriously the commitment that the nation has made in conventions like the geneva convention. i might add the convention

against torture. not to mention, statute of the congress' past making torture a crime and so on and so forth. >> absolutely. i think that the washington was very eager to catapult us to the realm of nations. it was important we were acting as a good citizens. he sort of saw the united states -- shining democracy and creating the republican that would the higher principal. i think it's important for the commander in chief to be looking at the commitment that we make. >> others? more questions? [inaudible] [laughter]

[inaudible] >> the former wants to make a speech. i spent many summers in canada canoeing and singing "oh canada "which is a beautiful anthem. i made it a point in junior high school of studying the history of canada and why i have that little fact stuck up there. thank you. >> okay. [inaudible] there was a young lady of the evening they called her. she was going back and forth from boston to the american side, the american lines. and it was discovered -- the reason going back so quickly and so often. she was spying carrying letters from the british to the american

contact they had and the army. washington's army. they caught her through some trickery they did. but she would not tell them who the american person was that she had her contact with. she refused to tell them and a number of accounts it said -- this is all it said. that washington and some of his staff spent the night with her and in the morning she devolinged who the person was. >> at length brought to a confession. she was proof against every thing we tried for the length she was brought to the a confusion. and -- confessions and it brings up good point how washington saw torture as something that we should rise above. and he wanted to get past the barbaric war of the past and

raise our level of conduct. then as the, you know, the revolution wears on, he starts realizing -- he says i'm morally opposed to torture. i'm more morally opposed to not saving american lives. and that's when these instances start arising when it comes down is i'm i need to do this to save american lives. that was a different story. >> i think thely briers is telling us bring it to a close. >> i'm not happy. >> the districter of zero dark thirty will dot movie version of this book. [applause] [applause]

good evening, thank you so much for being here tonight. if you're looking for what is

real food, i regret to inform you that is later in the month. this is the reading for congressman lincoln the making of america's greatest president. thanks so much to c-span for hosting authors like me and let us talk about what we do, and thank you for changing hands. this is the second event we have done here. having local book stores like this is a treasure. i love spending time here, and no one is allowed to leave until evercopy of the book over there is sold. so thank you for being here tonight. the book, "congressman lincoln: the making of america's greatest president. " was abraham lincoln who mace the decision to engage the south in a civil war in order to serve the union. abraham lincoln resolves the slavery issue.

and this story, why congressman lincoln? there are 16,000 books written about abraham lincoln. so if you go to ford theater in washington, dc, which is the final scene of this extraordinary story, you will see half that number piled high to the ceiling. and when i say becomes boot lincoln, i tone mean books about mary todd or generals, but i mean about him. yet book about his times in congress, one of these political jobs he ever held, the only other job he had in the federal government, besides president. when you talk about books about lincoln in congress, only three have been written. this is the third. the last one was written before i was born. so this is the missing piece of the palestine until -- piece of the puzzle in the lincoln story. we know about hays hard scrap upbringing and service in the illinois legislature, about his career in the courthouses of illinois, riding the eighth circuit, handling a variety of

cases and controversies as a frontier lawyer, and we're very familiar with the lincoln story as president. the guy who rote the gettysburg address. the 16th president 0 of the united states, the president who led the union during america's greatest moral, political, and civil crisis, and also during america's most tragic war. so, this is the missing piece of the lincoln puzzle. the first thing i want to talk about is the am mission of lincoln. we associate amibition as negative. someone who wants to go in possession -- politics, as a negative thing, and so as a result we focus on lincoln has being somebody who was above politics, above the muck and the dirty campaigning, the negative

campaigns, all these things we dislike about our modern political system. but we can't make those criticisms without leveling them at lincoln lynn. the fir chapter is "the most ambitious man in the world." it's a wrote quote about abraham lincoln from his law partner. he was hungry to be somebody. once he got in trouble from his older sister, and she said, behaving like that, what do you expect to be when you grow up in he told her, president of the united states. as president, lincoln said there was never a time in my life where i didn't believe i would some day be president of the united states. so this is someone who was very determined to work hard, make something of himself, and have his life be one that we would be talking about today so many years later. so, lincoln's amibition. where does that take him? he served in the illinois house of representatives.

in 1843 he makes his first bid for congress. he writes a friend of his and says if you hear anyone say mr. lincoln does not go to congress, you tell them he is mistaken. the truth is i would like to go very much. lip lip has two major obstacles, one is a gentleman named edward baker, a friend of his. another john hardy. both of these men are about the same age, they all three lawyers, and they're all three members of -- former members of the illinois legislature. they all have similar qualifications so lincoln's first hurdle is the county convention. so his home county, they're going to nominate delegates to a district-wide meeting meeting wa nominee for the wig party be chosen. illinois is very democratic at

this time. i if you were a wig, this congressional district was your only hope to move up. you wouldn't be elected governor or chosen for the newscast. if you were an upwardly member wig in illinois in 1843, this was your shot. and so lincoln has to outmaneuver baker at the county contention. he throws in the towel around noon. one newspaper said if he humming in there, his supporters would show spun maybe outnumber baker supporteres. lincoln ends up as a pledged delegate, policemenned -- pledgd to baker. he said its was similar to a guy who gets his girlfriend stolen and then has to stand up at the wedding. so baker is defeat by harden. so you have harden, younger than

lincoln, well be there as long as he wants. lincoln can see the dream of his going to congress disappearing very quickly. well, abraham lincoln comes up with an idea, and i'm pretty sure it was on the spot. i don't think -- lincoln offers a resolution and says, we congratulate harden on his victory. and we recommend edward baker as the nominee in two years. so, before harden even gets sworn into office, he has this resolution at the convention adopted hanging over his head, and then he announces he won't fill the second term in order to abide by the resolution, and if harden gets a turn and baker gets a turn, who gets a turn after that? abraham lincoln. so now he has to bide his time until 1846. '46, harden tries to make a comeback. lincoln's slogan? turn about is fair play. he's not going to take shots at harden, he's not going to try --

they agree on the issues. i think everyone who works in politics, sometimes when glory a political primary, the toughest effects are between people of their own party because there's no way to differentiate yourself on the issues. lincoln stays away from that, all the negative campaigning. he says turn-about is fair play. and it works. harden decides not to run again. lincoln in 1846 is the unanimous choice of the whig convention in illinois,, he has to go up by a guy named peter cartwright, a methodist preacher but he is a guy who has had his revivals interrupted by people who he later assaulted. peter was a tough guy. there's a story about him getting put up in a swank hotel and he got lost so he used a hatchet to make a trail on the walls so he could get to his

room. this who is lincoln has to go up against. and lincoln is actually very successful. he has the biggest majority in the district, bigger than harden's majority or baker's majority. now he has year and a half until he is sworn in. so he continues to go to court, continues to try these cases, handle cases and tend to the affairs of his family. the last case he handled before he heads for washington is the slave case. think about this. this is going to be incredibly important when we see our lincoln -- where lincoln got after he leaves congress. matson was a slave owner from kentucky who is chasing a slave of his in i illinois courts, trying to bring him back to kentucky, and lincoln represents madson, and he is been in kentucky, spend some of the earliest years of his life in kentucky. he grows up in a come wrif 7500

people and a thousand slaves. the lincoln farm was near the cumberland road. and lincoln could see slavery up close. this is something that lincoln was familiar with. he goes down to new orleans as a river boat captain and he fees the biggest slave market in north america in new orleans, and sees the brutality and horror of slavery, and he wishes it would end but he says, there's laws in place, and he felt the man had a case and represented mr. madson. you would never see something like this from lincoln after he leaves congress. so, december, 1847, lincoln lynn is a member of the 30th 30th congress, and what is so fascinating, is who is there with him in congress? the most famous member of the

30th congress is john wednesdayy adams, -- john quincy adams, the former president. this is the link between lincoln and the founding fathers, the short time that lincoln and john quincy adams have to spend with one another, this is the link between lincoln and the towning fathers. so you can imagine their conversations. lincoln was fascinated by washington, so fascinated with the founding generation who prosecuted the revolutionary war, got behind the declaration of independence, who put together the constitution, who started the new government, and we can imagine what sort of questions lincoln might have had for john quincy adams. john quincy adams shortly into his tenure of congress dies on the house floor, probably right in front of abraham lincoln, and i start the prologue talking about that. you have this generation, lincoln's generation, the one that is going to fight the self war, and they're the first

generation that doesn't have the benefit of the counsel of the founding generation, so all these people with experience running the american government, experience comprimising on serious issues and keeping the union together, they were long. they were left to settle these questions on their own. so lincoln served not only with john quincy adams, he served with a man named alexander stevens, stevens will serve as the vice president of the confederacy. how many people have seen the lincoln movie? it's an excellent movie. when lincoln is in negotiations on the refer queen and talking to the commissioners from the confederacy, one is actually alexander stevens, who was lincoln's best friend in the house of representatives. they were both whigs in the day before political parties were regional. they were both whigs, and they both work on a presidential

campaign together. lincoln worked with jefferson davis. lib lincoln's vice president, hamlin, is a senator. his second vice president', andrew johnson, was a member of the house with abraham lincoln. so so many of these people who would become critical in the civil war, who would become important to lincoln's rise to the presidency, they were there in the 30th congress with them. fascinating to watch him interact without imagining what roles they would play later in history. so what are the major issues when lincoln gets to congress? nothing beggar than the mexico-american war. they're trying to figure out, what is the end game in mexico? this is something we can't imagine, being in long wars without ideas how to wrap it up. that was something that lincoln and his colleagues had to confront.

and so for lincoln's part he was very content to let the matter lay until the war was resolved. the problem was president james k. polk was determined to treat nip's silence as support for the war. and lincoln couldn't be silent anymore. so, lynn's first major address as a member of congress he fifths something later known as the spot resolution speech. it almost cost him his political career. after the speech was finished, people thought that was it for abraham lincoln. in fact, we have this principle of rotation, these people who serve one term apiece, and people are in talking about abraham lincoln running for re-election as soon as he gets there. after the speech no one is talking about abraham lincoln staying in congress anymore. pretty clear he is not going to run again. why they call it the spot revolution speech? every part of his resolution

wants polk to go to the spot where the blood was first shed in american war. lincoln -- picture this country lawyer. now he has courtroom that is the marble house of representatives, which is a statuary hall. this is the house of representatives, the meeting place when lincoln was a member of congress and you can see a plaque where his desk was on the house floor. lincoln gave this speech from that talking -- where was it the mexican war gain and was this disputed territory? now, illinois has been one of the most gung ho states in the union for a war. and there was a preacher who prayed for the end of the war and he fearly not lynched and he had to stop showing up in front of this group. they almost took out a preacher over what they sir peeved --

perceived to be negative comments on the war. well, a lot of things come out of the mexican-american war that will define the rest of lincoln's tenure and set america on a collision course for the civil war. one overnighters things out of the mexican war was the rising star of zachary taylor. a very unlikely hero in america. never voted. a rare career military man in an era when the american military standing army was never very big. he made his career there. but he wins battle after battle after battle, and at the top 0 of the list is the battle of boundary i bit -- buena vista, d so the president sends the troops to make an a&m teenous lanking and relieve taylor. general santa unanimous hears

about this, makes the decision they're going in front of taylor's army. well, zachary taylor win the battle, outgunned four to one. in the process, john harden, former congressman, he one who tussled with lincoln in the 1846 congressional race, he dies, and one of the things write about history, i'm so fascinated by seemingly small thing that conspire to make great things happen on the world stage inch this case, if john harden has lived, come back to mexico, or back to illinois as a hero of the mexican-american war, there's very little chance lincoln would be the head of the new republican party when it was founded, or very little chance he would have been the nominee from senate twice from the imrepublican party. it would have been harden. but we'll never know because harden dies in the final minutes of the battle of buena vista.

so zachary taylor talks bat potential presidential candidate, lincoln, and sal lexer in city veins, the future vice president of the confederacy, they're among the first seven supporters of zachary taylor in the house of representatives. why? this guy who might be the whig's ticket to victory after all their defeats? well, simple. we don't know where he stands, zachary taylor, one of the biggest slave owners in the country. whig party opposed to mexican-american war, generally speaking, zachary taylor led that war. so there's reluctance to embrace this guy, and lincoln, who we put on a pedestal, said we have tried running on principle enough. let us try winning. and so lincoln and the other --

they call themselves the young indians, lincoln and the young indians, set about trying to rally support for zachary taylor. now, there's another alternative. there's henrylay, making his final bid for the presidency, former speak over the house, former secretary of state. the founder of the whig party, right? the guy who embodied their ideals. abraham lincoln said henry clay was a statesman, man for whom i halve fought my entire adult life but lincoln knows clay cannot win. and while lincoln doesn't claim to have any special knowledge about what zachary taylor believes, he knows that taylor can win, and so he believes the choice is not between having a perfect whig and having zachary taylor. the choice is between having a democrat, who they know will disagree with them, and a whig who just might afree with them, and who at least, if nothing else, will fill the government with loyal whigs and build up the whig party.

in the whigs in 1840 they win their first presidential x-rays of course hairsson dies after 30 days. his vice president is basically a democrat. john tyler, who gets kicked out of the whig party, and they're not able to win presidential race. so literally in all their existence the whigs have the presidency for 30 days. so a lot of them are eager for a win. this person is closer to our beliefs, or this person can win, and this is something that political parties were still struggle with even under the second party system in the 1840s. so what are the other issues? well, shortly before the commencement of the mexican mexican-american wars polk runs for the presidency and wins on the expansionist platform, manifest destiny. americans are debt citizenned to go to the performing and debt destined to grow, and he is

going to adjust the border with oregon. so oregon at this point is being administered jointly with the united kingdom. polk backs out of the treaty, decides we're going -- remember, 54, 40 or fight. that was the line of latitude they were going to stick to of course, didn't come close. that line of latitude was well into british columbia, almost to alaska. but we have this brand new territory of oregon, and anytime the united states acquires territory, we have a problem. right? so the very fragile piece that keeps the union together is the missouri compromise. during the presidency of james monroe. missouri applied to come in as a slave state, and this would set an imbalance in the stat between slave states and free states. so they cam up with a plan. out of the louisiana territory slavery will be permitted below

this line and not before this line. missouri can come in has slave state and maine a free state. and lincoln and his colleagues stick to their guns and fighting how it will be constituted. so one of the principle of0s the issue is the will not proviso, sounds obscure. probably one of the biggest issues at the time. any territory acquired by the united states, we're not going to have slavery. and so lincoln and his colleagues are actually able to win will not proviso in the oregon territory paperwork. so he is getting his feet measure him, given a major tress on the maxan american war, and you see lincoln standing up for the taxpayers after an attempt by special interest to force

congress to give them contract the postmaster general wasn't willing to give them, which i found fast sitting. while lincoln was a member of company he lived at police called abolition house, and they get the nickname based on the people who lid there joshua diddings, chief among them. joshua giddings is not a name many americans are familiar with. but at this time he is the premiere abolitionist in the united states and they live in the same boring house, and gettings has a profound effect on lincoln's thinkingment he believed slavery is wrong but there's nothing you can do in congress to fix it. but joshua gettings is going to begin this evolution in abraham lincoln's beliefs on slavery. so what does lincoln at the recess of the first congress? he decides he is going to good

all in for zachary taylor. so he goes on a campaign swing through the state of massachusetts, on behalf of zachary taylor. he said he was there to speak to the most elite groups in the country and shake he hay seed out of his hair. illinois, associated with being a western state or frontier state but it was that when abraham lincoln lived there. so for the first time in american history, lincoln is spoking -- speaking before one of the most refined leaders in the country. the whigs of massachusetts, and going there to speak on behalf of zachary taylor. he is not there to speak for zachary taylor against louis cass. cass won't win massachusetts unless a third party candidate by the name of martin van buren, who is running on the free ticket, which was created to oppose zachary taylor, mostly by former antislavery whigs. trying to convince them it's a

good thing but martin van buren can't win and zachary taylor can win. so what is interesting is lincoln goes to the philadelphia convention that nominates zachary taylor. in pennsylvania, lincoln's first trip to philadelphia and has a chance to go to independence haul, just like many of you have done as tourists. abraham lincoln does a lot of the same things we have done as tourist. in fact after the death of john quincy adams, lincoln goes to mt. vernon on a tour, and he, just like many of us, he goes and pays his respects to george washington. not a national park at the time. not a tourist site. but there and -- george washington's nephew is the custodian of the grounds and lincoln can pay his respected to the first president as a member of congress. so lincoln meets a lot of people who will be important in the

future. people not serving in congress but a man named thaddeus stevens, from pennsylvania, portrayed by tommy lee jones in the movie. this is their first meeting and they exchange first letters, and i was so fascinated to write about that. so, i after the convention, lincoln is touring massachusetts with his family. he is happy to be reunited to his family. every member of congress can tell you, everyone who has families, when they get elected to congress they've got all this contrary advice. take your family with you. good for you to have your familiarfully washington, dc. live your family at home. you don't want them getting infected by the swamp or dealing with anything associated with congress. and depending on which member of congress you ask, they give you contrary advice. lincoln did both. at first mary and the children go with him. and he sort of believes they're getting in his way. getting in the way of the meetings he has as a member of congress. and mary had her expectations frustrated a bit.

mary todd lincolnif he was the most ambitious man's, she might have been he most ambitious woman in the world. mary todd abraham lincoln was a member of a gender who couldn't vote, much less meaning fly participate in the political process. she said, when she was asked who was looking for as a husband, she said she wanted to mary the man who had the best chances of being president. who on earth would have guessed right, including when her suit ors included douglas, who bested lincoln everytime they went up against each other, except the one that mattered, the presidency race. so they go back to kentucky for the first half of the first session and then join him on his swing to -- swing through massachusetts on behalf of zachary taylor. one more interesting anecdote.

lincoln meets another man for the first time who figures prominently in his life. goes to a church in boston, and the speaker in front of him is a gentleman named william seward, who goes on to be lincoln's chief rival for the 1860 republican nomination for president and goes on to serve as the secretary of state. seward gives a speech about slavery, and if you take seward's telling of it afterwards, they went back to his hotel room afterwards and lincoln said, i've been thinking about your speech and i have to say, we need to do more about the slavery issue. it's not enough to just be against it. we may need too take some action and that's the name of the game in congress. one more interesting thing lincoln does with his breaks. he is the first and only president ever to patent a device. so when lincoln and his family are heading back from massachusetts, he stops off in albany and actually stops in and

pays a visit to the vice presidential nominee of the whig party, millard fillmore, who will be president inside of two years when general taylor dies. and they're taking a steamer through the great lakes to get back home to chicago, and lincoln thinks -- sees a stranded boat, and he sees the captain throwing everything from the boat overboard and trying to get all of these -- everything on the boat, underneath the boat in order to boy buoy it up we ever osand bar. and hi said it it would be great to have air sacks to boost these boats up over the barriers so he tried to create a twice that he could submit to toe -- the patent office, and he will do so successfully. and he'll actually be the first and only president to be awarded a patent for this device. so, back to congress and the

winter of 1849. the last session. zachary taylor has successfully been elected president. and still some major issues to deal with. you cannot understand lincoln when he is speaking about slavery -- you cannot see the movie "lincoln" and wonder why lincoln was so dedicated to stamping out slavery, and if you're familiar with his time in the 30th congress so lincoln comes up with a bill to abolish slavery in the district of columbia, first ever legislation introduced by lynn len -- by lincoln to limit slavery. why there? congress can't tell the southern states that it can't he slavery but they can the district of columbia lincoln is not interested in symbolic victories. he is trying to get a bill passed that will get signed by the president, and unfortunately

what happens sometimes with legislation, gets wounded on by both sides. the antiand pro slavery people don't like and it it doesn't go anywhere but lincoln will have an opportunity to sign a very similar bill when he is president, banning slavery in the district of columbia. one other experience -- lincoln -- so congress handles all the claims. if you have a claim against the federal government, you didn't go to the u.s. court of claims. didn't exist yet. congress was in charge of hearing these claims. so there's a claim for the owner of a slave named antonio pacheco, and pacheco is a brilliant scholar who ends up to be a slave, and he at the end of the the seminole war he is able

to escape. and they're looking for federal money compensate him. and lincoln says the laugh ills the law, and law in phrases recognizes a family as a person, and we have 0 to compensate this man. but lincoln votes against compensating the family of antonio pacheco. what other things impact lincoln's thinking? a little nope event that happened during his time in congress. he is at the boarding house, gets served meals every day. one waiter was a black slave who was working there to work off his freedom. a married man. we don't know his name. we know his price was $300. he was $60 away from getting there, and he was kidnapped at gunpoint in front of his wife, and he was sold into slavery in new orleans. we don't know what happened to him, if he was freed at the hands of the union army commanded by president lincoln. we don't know if he died in slavery. we don't know what happened to him. but imagine that.

you have this guy you get to know, serving you food multiple times a day, telling you about his wife and how excited to be free, and then one day you're talking to his wife and she is in a panic and trying to get you to help find him because he has one kidnapped at gunpoint. how can now not start to appreciate this evil for what it is. not an academic question but something that needs to be stopped. so lincoln is a member of the first congress to actually deal with a fiscal cliff. we live in a time of fiscal cliffs, debt ceiling standoffs, threatened government shutdowns, rumors of government shirtups. lip lip and the 30th congress were actually the first. what happens? we have major appropriations bill coming at the very end of the second session of congress. and the clean bill, the whigs are trying to increase the pay of certain offices they think they're going to get appointed to by zachary taylor.

nothing too controversial. passes unanimously and goes to the senate in the? , a map named walker from the state of wisconsin attaches a rider to the bill prohibiting slavery -- i'm sorriry -- allowing president polk to organize all this new territory we acquired from mexico at the conclusion of the mexican american war, allowing president polk to organize it in the way he sees fit. he thinks we should extend the missouri compromise to the pacific ocean, some where we are right now into have been slave territory. so lincoln every time votes against this appropriations bill so long as the walker amendment is attached to it. lincoln is willing to shut down the government in order to prevent millions of new acres being opened up to slavery. the house goes back and forth with the senate. the house tries tries to prohibg

slavery living it ambiguous. so the got looks like it's going shut down, and imagine the government shut down then. when lincoln called a special session of congress he couldn't get congress any sooner than july 4th. the new congress won't be sworn in for a year and a half so he would have had diplomats and consulate over seas, every government shutting down and we'd be the laughing stock of the world but lincoln was willing to accept this rather than open up these acres to slavery. lincoln could not have possibly voted to shut down the u.s. government, especially in a state like illinois which was for all intends and powers slave state. the would not have done this unless he proceeded from the conviction office his heart. so lincoln deal with his first

fiscal cliff, a 4:00 in the morning there's a file over whether congress is still congress. are we still congress? some senators are saying. no it's march 4th. today is the day, the last day of term, it's over. we're not senators anymore. the government is going shut down. fortunately the majority members of congress didn't afree. senate break as 4:00 in the morning, president polk signs it at his last duty in office. and so monday, because of the swearing in day would fall on the sabbath, sworn in on monday, and there's a great inaugural ball. and lincoln great party planner. he raised money to help the washington monument get started and was there for the laying of the cornerstone, july 4, 1848. so lincoln was on the plane committee for zachary taylor's

ball, and in judiciary square, metro stop in washington, dc, they built this temporary structure, one of the biggest parties ever been had in washington, dc up to that point, and lincoln goes home maybe three in the morning, it's a late night, and find his cloak okay but can't find his hat. didn't have a very well organized hat check so lincoln has to walk home in the cold. one of his friends never forgot the story. never going get the sight of the man walking in the cold, not knowing that 12 years later all office these festivities would be for him, and i think anybody who you ask at the time probably didn't see the path he was going to take in his life. >> so, the book concludes with lincoln attempting to get a job in zachary taylor's administration, a chapter called "the comet at the end of the world. " we're talking about meteors hitting the earth.

this time there's talk of a meteor comet destroying the earth, and one of lincoln's friends is absolutely certain it's going to happen. in fact lincoln chides him about it 12 years later when they meet again. but he is trying very hard to get this job, commissioner of a general land office under zachary taylor, and he -- if he is in washington, dc in a burke, he is not in illinois imforming the republican party. probably never becomes president. but at the time he was quite depressed when he got passed over. he went back to his hotel room and laid on the bed for an hour, couldn't move. he thought it was the end of his career. but history had something better in store for mr. lincoln later down the road. but he ends up leaving washington. one-term congressman, future very much in doubt, headed back towards the state of illinois, as if nothing happened. one more interesting thing he does before leaving washington. he becomes the first future

president to argue a supreme court case. i thing this is cool because i'm a lawyer but hope any you think this is interesting. it's not an exciting says, statute of limitations case but has been cited in 30 case, most recent live in the 1990s, and i beth the lawyers who use this case don't realize who the lawyer that argued it for the first time. so this is the story of congressman abraham lincoln, where lincoln learned about politics, came an awful long way as a politician, someone on the issue of slavery, and when making it to the president si 12 years ladder, it's only this experience, watching president polk up close as a member of the house, that he had going for him when he became president, and watching zachary taylor put together an administration in both cases he probably considers them a bad example, an example of what not to do. so that's it. i'm glad to take questions. thanks so much for your attention. [applause]

>> in your book you talk about how abraham lincoln was a great story-teller, thank you share one of your favorite stories you learned? >> he is a great story teller. one of the reasons people liked him so much. he was so funny and could entertain just about any crowd of people. and he always had a story for every occasion. one of the places lincoln loved to hang out in congress during the long, boring speeches, during recesses, is the house post office, room that is just adjacent to the floor of the house of representatives, where people can go and kick back and gossip and talk about each other behind their back, and lincoln starts going in there around the christmastime in 1847. and he starts -- eventually works up the courage to start telling stories himself. right? one of the first stories he told, one that people always remember, that lincoln was a

captain in the illinois militia during the black hawk washing. so chief blackhawk coming back across the mississippi river. the settlers were terrified about what was going to happen to them. so they're very quickly putting together this militia. lincoln is elected captain, which he considered an honor was greater than anything he had done. on already -- and so lincoln talks about guiding troops across the prairie, and they come to a fence, and he's thinking about the command and he has all these men behind him. these are people that are supposed to trust him to lead them into battle. he can't come with this command. so he gets to the fence and says, this company is dismissed for two minutes at which point it will re-assemble on the other side of the fence. [laughter] >> that was the story that somebody remembered even decades

later. when abraham lincoln -- after he became famous, people started writing down stories about him, and trying to remember what they could about this man. many of whom believed he was an extraordinary person destined for big things before it was obvious to others. other questions? >> the dred scott decision, where did i fit in his timeline? >> the dred scott decision was something lincoln was totally opposed to. when lincoln was a member of congress, there's a number of positions you can take bat what we do with the american territories and how slavery fits into that. so one position would have been the most extreme, you can take slavery -- congress doesn't have the fewer ban slavery. the missouri compromise is unconstitutional. that's what the supreme court finds in dred scott. lincoln is on the exact side of the issue.

he has dozens and dozens of opportunities to vote nor will mont proviso and always does. so in between you have president polk's plan to extend the missouri missouri compromise line to the pacific. and james buchanan, secretary of state, he is of the same mind. james buchanan as president, interestingly -- dred scott comes down a couple days after he is sworn in, and he actually thinks it's a good thing. he thinks it's going to be a good thing for his presidency. actually means by the time he loses the presidency, seven states are going to secede from the union. so james buchanan, says, let the supreme court decide and no one will be upset. we'll have slavery all over the territories no one will question this. but the opposite is true. so lincoln is opposed to it. dred scott fuels the rise of the republican party in the mart.

-- in the north. paves the way for abraham lincoln to become president of the united states. so something lincoln would have been opposed to, would have been opposed to, and helped pave the way for the civil war. more questions? >> did lincoln have a bill passed in his one term that had a lasting effect? >> he had a number of bills passed, which was fascinating. the conventional wisdom is abraham lincoln is a mediocre congressman. every history i read they can't pass up the chance to say he is undistinguished and immediate oak customer disagree. i think he was an excellent cockman, and this isn't the most exciting thing to 21st century academics but lincoln is a driving force between an omnibus post office bill. five days a week we get mail wherever we live. into the grand canyon here in the state of arizona. but at the time the limited mail routes dictated where you lived

and could do business, and lincoln created a -- he was one of the people on the post offices and post roads committee, which was the major committee he was a member of, and he helped craft a bill and ran into procedural setback us but gets it signed by the president and that's -- i actually held that nil my hands and his writing is all over it. so he must have been going to different states and saying, what would it take to get your vote? so lincoln can wheel and deal with the best of them, like we saw in the movie. also worked on some of these bills to compensate people who believe the federal government owes them money. one of the rolfs of congressman is being am on budman to the government. lincoln would apply for patents,

get you a passport if you are a constituent, ask the secretary of state personally for your pastport. some say members of congress are good at home and good in washington. he thinks very few people are both. i think lincoln was good at home and good in washington. lincoln is one of these people, his spot revolution speech, which i think is roundly considered dish believe it was something that was influential. part of a movement by the whig party to try to stop the mexican-american war, and actually the whig party, with lincoln voting in favor, is able to adopt a resolution saying the war was unconstitutional begin by the president of the united states. and so lincoln and his colleagues helped stop the mexican-american war. a very little known story how the war ends.

polk senseses them to negotiate. they take tooline and he wants the whole country of mexico. we know at least he wanted all f the western united states, but he is looking at maybe annexing all of mexico, looking very different than eunited states today, so lincoln is trying tap the bricks on this. so polk recalls nick his tryst. who is waiting for his replacement who never comes. winfield scott went to escort trist back to veracruz so he is stuck there, and then he decide i'm going to shoot the end of the war after all, and he does, and the treaty gets sent back to president polk, in a rage. polk refuses to compensate trist for all his expenses.

took the taylor administration for compensate trist for his expenses. but they have polk cornered. polk can't not send the treaty to the senate after he publicly set these terms, and trist gets everything he asked for initially, before he changed his mind and tried to get the whole thing. so they're very, very successful. lincoln and his colleagues, very successful. so lincoln's hands are all over the postal bill. gets the legislation passed to benefit people in his district. he is a player, issues of war and peace that dominate snow congress. yes? >> followed your working -- you have shared some pretty cool characters. how do you enter act with these guys? how do you write -- what is your process for finding the next

area? >> guest: this was great fun to research. i started with this by saying, how do you add value to lincoln's story? even though this is only the third lincoln in congress book in history. so much have been written, how do you add value? so i thought i would look at the letters from his colleagues, people who are not independently famous, in some cases no one ever looked through the papers. one of his house mates at abolition house, named john strum. his papers are in harrisburg, pennsylvania, and i asked the curator about that. anybody more familiar with the collection? he didn't know anything about it. anybody i could talk to, if i was worth the trip to harrisburg, and he said in the 30 years i've been here nobody has looked at these. so i was heading to harris burke, looking at one of lincoln's house mate papers that were never looked at.

so took me to 13 states. someone asked me if i had to good to all 50 states to look at members of the 30th congress. the answer was, no. [laughter] >> i decided i was going to leave out the hawai'i delegation and hope they didn't write anything to revelatory. so i'll sit in these libraries and have my book open and a world file for notes and i'll read the letters. they're not microfilmed, which is good, because that's the worst part of my job. i'd much rare handle the letters. so i'm reading them and when i see something interesting ex-i jot it down and have a note where i got it from. and put those all into a word file, and then when i'm finished, i print them up, and i will cross off each footnote has i use it somewhere in the map

uscrip. said like building a house. start with the foundation. i found all the lincoln correspondence from 1843 to 1846 and used that as a foundation. put them install chronological order. that's how i like to tell stories and that's the eastess way to understand these stories. and so everything else i found, the corporations of other -- their correspondence of other people. the congressional globe, the house journal, all goes in where it's supposed to in the chronology, and then you try to turn it into a book instead of a series of historical data points. hopefully i have been successful. that's good question, thank you. it's been a fun process, and i thought at first i didn't know what i was doing. with the first book i didn't know what was getting into. in the second book i had good process and am looking forward to doing a similar process with the third book.

>> the understanding that lincoln was one of the pallbearers for john quincy adams, what relationship did they have? >> yeah. yeah. that's out there in a big way. i've seen that in so many places. the truth his is not a pallbearer foron sequin si adams. he is on a commitey that created to oversee the funeral arrangements so they have a member from every state, and lincoln gets that because he is the only whig from illinois. they call him the lone star of illinois. i think that's how he gets the honor. they find out quickly that -- even though there weren't 50 states, still a lot of politicians in the room. so they created a subcommittee that hammers out the fiber details, and lincoln was on the subcommittee. now,'ll of it is speculation. i was able to put the two of them at a party at the mayor of washington's house, and adams was greeting everyone who came in. i also know another story.

this is -- the conference at the end of the movie where they're talking about negotiating the end of the civil war. and there's a story that alexander reminded lincoln of. and he says, remember that time that illinois delegation was having a fight over how to pronounce the name of illinois, and i say illinois, but there's illinois, difference ways to say it, that's when you didn't happen television and people disagreed. so they bring in john quincy adams to mediate the issue. you can gate former secretary of state to come in and mediate your petty disputes, before we had iphones for these things. and they asked him, how do you pronounce the national of the state illinois, and he says, jumping by you guys i think it's pronounced "all noise." so we know lincoln would have been there for all of that. and lincoln was at a party with john quincy appeared dams. i think the would find him out.

he was good at finding people in the law in politics who could guide him, and lincoln's father was an orphan who worked on farms his entire life, and lincoln was raised on farmwork as well. someone who basically taught himself how to read and so he knew if he was ever going to be the man that he wanted to be in life, he would need to find mentors, fiend people who war aid him. i can't imagine a better person than john quincy adams. visitors describe about seeing him there and being in awe, because this former president, with such high stature, someone would worked for presidents washington, madison, machine -- monroe, had himself been president. no question lincoln would have sought him out. i don't know that it talk about. neither of them if recorded it. >> one of the leading abolitionists. >> he was, absolutely. john quincy adams was huge

abolitionist, someone who fought the gag rule in congress, someone who i think could have inspired lincoln in that regard very much so. >> you briefly mentioned lincoln's father just now. anything you can share about lincoln's relationship with his dad as adults? >> i know it's not a great one but we don't know exactly what happened. i can tell you when lincoln is racing back to washington, dc at the end of the book, trying to get this appointment from zachary taylor, he stops by his father's home because he hears his father is deathly ill. so he goes out of his way to do that, maybe jeopardize is his chance of getting a major appointment from the president. but later in the final hours of his father's life, when he ultimately did die, lincoln said i don't think any good can come from me being there. so lincoln was someone who dealt fairly with everybody we encountered.

renowned for his integrity, for having a forgiving nature, never held grudges. you can only imagine what might be the case there that would have upset lincoln to the point where he didn't show up he was dying, the second time, the time he actually passes away. so i think it's one of the reasons -- one of the lincoln stories -- i have two things get lincoln. i don't like the way he treated this father and too indulgent of his children. i'm convinced one of the reasons he was so indulgent of his children is because he had an unhappy childhood and he wanted his children to be happy. when they were living in d.c., and they drove the people at abolition house crazy. one person dish won't quote them verbatim because c-span is a family friendly channel help said if lincoln's kids went to the bathroom in his hat, he thinks its hilarious.

yeah. >> we all know what lincoln did as president and what he thought of presidential power. what did he think of presidential power when he was in legislative branch? >> that's an interesting question. lincoln gets accused of usurpation, trampling on the power othe presidency. one thing lincoln learns from polk, and i talk about this in the book because i wanted to know what lessons lincoln took to the presidency with him. found not only was polk overbear budget polk tried to use congress as a rubber stamp. so lincoln tried to be very solis to us of congress to try to keep them in the loop to try to make them feel as to the they were part of the decisionmaking process even when he already made the decisions for them. and it works. when he becomes president he issues a call for a number of volunteers and money to fund the civil war. congress actually increases the number of troops above what he asked for and increases the appropriation, and one of the things lincoln was very mindful

off. polk fought publicly with zachary taylor. i'm convinced why he ran for president. polk would not make a public pronouncement about any of his generals without fighting with them. so he tried to aplace two of. the with a democratic general so maybe the democracy can run for president. tries to politicize the war. lincoln tried to do that in other different way. his first three appoint 's to generals in the union army or up democrat, all representing some sort of important group. elected officials, because lincoln knows when you lose public support for a war, and when you lose congress, when you lose congress, the war is over. and so lincoln knew that he could defeat the south, he could restore the union, but not with his hands tiedband his -- tied behind his back.

so i think he is successful in avoiding polk's problems. >> you wrote in the book that lincoln was very depressed and unhappy.his marriage to mary todd. did that relationship get better or always unhappy with he o -- her? >> always a very difficult relationship. he tried to break it off. it's not like breaking off an engagement today. if you had gone to where you were engaged to be married and it was broken off for whatever rope, a woman was basically damaged goods and he knew he damaged her prospects for marriage. he newell he made her very unhappy. lincoln, one of the nicest, sweetest people would lived. couldn't live with himself knowing he made someone so unhappy. so when he decides to follow through on the original empty immigrant and marry her, he is getting ready at his best friend0s house, and his best friend's house says where are

you going? and lincoln goes, to hell, i suppose. you can imagine what the little boy thought. [laughter] >> so, lincoln spent a 0 lot of time on the eighth circuit, more than he needed to. spent have half the year riding from courthouse to courthouse. anybody on the circuit who could get home, they would do it. lincoln would sit in the little county seats all by himself and sit there on the weekend, and he preferred that to being with his life. i knoll he loved her very much but gave her great- -- the relation shown gave him great problems. i you want to learn know go to lincoln for congress.com. we have a fake web site for lincoln's race. nixon.ally used all of his own

m-frank spoke recently in los angeles. [applause] >> welcome to all of you and to insomniacs throughout the united states. i have a -- it's my pleasure to

introduce jeff frank. jeff frank is an accomplished writer. those of you who buy the book today will be blessed in reading the prose. jeff spent 13 years at the washington post. i'm not sure that's where you learn how to write bell but that where is you learn how to get a good story. and by the end he was running the outlook section. then he went to the new yorker and was a senior editor there for 13 years, and that's a place where you learn to write well and help others write well. besides writing nonfiction, jeff has written three -- i guess four -- works of fiction. so this is one who understands the importance of narrative and of a good story. and he brought those talents, for some reason to the relationship between eisenhower and nixon, and i want to begin by asking you, jeff, why did you

choose that particular marriage? >> because it really was a great story. it began with two people who really didn't know each other. one of them was an american hero of the sort we don't have anymore. five star general forks more five star generals. the man given credit for leading the allies to victory in europe, and a 39-year-old cork york congressman. eisenhower ran with nixon but didn't choose him as vice president. he wasn't aware that a presidential candidate gets to choose his vice president. and so he later was asked by james ruston, of "the new york times," what really happened the night when nixon was chosen? and eisenhower said i had my advisors and there were six or seven people on the list, and nixon was on there. so they had a very strange relationship that went on and on during eisenhower's presidency. it became closer what nixon call

his wilderness years, and then around 1966 eisenhower's grandson david, who is going am hurst, began to date julie nixon, who -- they were crazy about each other and a year later they were married, and they became one family in november of 1968, they had thanksgiving together. the nixons and the eisenhowers, and jewelry's first born was an eisenhower. >> the topic of the discussion is rethinking nixon. did this experience of writing about this relationship, cause you to rethink nixon? >> thought about nixon a lot. i don't think -- i'm not sure i really saw him. i wasn't doing the nixon presidency, even though i have an epilogue that deals with what came after. but i really only deal in the book with three or two months of

the nixon presidency, which began when he was inaugurated and two months later eisenhower was dead and that covers the story. from their first meeting at the bohemian grove, an exclusive men's club north of san francisco, and ended up with ike's death in 1969. >> what sense of man did you get? >> he baffled me, and i found him extremely complicated. was riveted by the different sides on him he could be really vindictive and vicious. at one time he referred to his 1960 running mate, henry cab about lung, knuckle-headed gutless wonder, and yet he could be so kind to people. and generous in ways he didn't have to be. you think about the kennedy but help he was president he invited

mrs. kennedy and two children to see them in the white house, and it wasn't a perfunctory look around. he spent time with them. they played with the dog and he wrote them thank you letters, and he wrote thank you letters back to the children. he touched mrs. kennedy so much. and he had this other side. he completely baffled me. >> what took me in reading your book, how mean dwight eisenhower was to richard nixon. i mean, it's amazing how mean. you should give us some examples. >> yeah. eisenhower wasn't aware of it. eisenhower regarded everyone who worked for him as staff, and nixon was a lieutenant commander in the navy, and eisenhower was a five-star general, and to try to get seasons of that today, we don't have -- we have four stores, like david petraeus, but

it's a difference between sort of leading the allied expeditionary forces in the invasion of normandie or running iraq. so eisenhower was -- both parties want things to -- fdrs son wanted him to run as a democrat. and they could run for both parties and then different vice presidents. and so i eisenhower was oblivious to his affect on people, andest i think there -- in some cases some deliberate cruelty. and started off in a very bad we. i'm sure you know the story of the crisis which began with his story in the new york post saying nix won was support bade secret group of millionaires and a lot of for your -- pressure to get nixn off the ticket, but long story short, nixon went on

television, explained himself, revealed all of his independences, talk about the dog named checkers he wasn't going to give back, and defied eisenhower's order to resign. he said right republican national commitey, circumventing eisenhower's pour to remove him from the ticket. but knock that point on things were never the same. even though they worked together. eisenhower -- nixonite what he did to him was a scar that never heeled, and julie nixon in her book about her mother, said everybody september 23rd, the notifies of the checkers speech having he i would a, you know what day this is? and he never forgot. nixon would -- eisenhower would do things -- when nix won was given a vacation in the summer of 1958, they withwere off in

west. he said, dick, want you to come back to washington and fire sherman adams. he was not a really kind boss. he wanted his own way. but i don't -- some of this was sort of casual, sort of casual indifference to the feelings of other people. >> we're seeing -- tonight for some reason all of you decided not to watch the state of the the union. but somebody in the country, some people are watching the state of the union, and we're watching now, of course, a dialogue between a resurgent re-elected president and a divided republican party. you wrote about quite a different republican party. >> it was a different party. they were sort -- there were -- the party was totally different. when nixon was -- it was the civil rights party, the party of lincoln, and the democrats --

>> jackie robinson and nixon. >> and martin luther king was a big nixon supporter until they had a bad moment in 1970 when nixon didn't come to his aid. and nixon and the eisenhower administration -- with nixon working in the senate, sort of lob yelled for a stronger version of the civil rights bill, which was considered a landmark bill at the time. and the two wings of the republican party, the liberal wing and conservative wing, but the liberal -- the conservative wing were people like robert taft, who was an isolationist but supported old age pensions. they are outliars as a government has taken over the country and senator mccarthy. but they were outliers. they didn't speak for the parties, and even though eisenhower was

reduck -- reluctant to take anybody on directly. he put nixon up to it. >> one of the challenges for someone writing about richard nixon, i think -- i'd like to know if you share this view -- is that we have an ocean of information about him as president. largely because he decided to leave it himself. he didn't expect he public to have access, and be don't have as much as vice president. and how easy or hard was it to get to the inner nixon? >> i give a lot of credit to timothy, who was the director of the nixon library. a lot of stuff was open and you could go down there and go through the -- go to the archives and -- the moe time you spend the more thing yo discovered. i began to be fascinated by the notes that nixon wrote on the famous yellow pads.

he where write down -- like an a-student. everything he did, he would take notes. when he made -- eisenhower did him a big favor in the fall of 1953 of sending him throughout asia, and in vietnam he melt the emperor, and then he basically said, the only ones that had -- communist can run countries. he saw the future in a way. he didn't like it, he was a cold warrior, but you could see nixon reflecting, and being -- one time being resentful when he saw eisenhower was trying photo rid of him in 1956, he was writing town things, it what's president's choice, for the good of the party and was writing his own death speech. so you can find all thosing toos and it's all there but you have to keep looking. the other thing that is so important -- and tim can talk about this -- a barrier between the nixon library, which is run by the national archives, and the nixon foundation, which is a far more celebratory part, and

they were terrific to me. they decide they'd were going trust me to be fair, and i hope i was fair, and they put me in touch with one person in particular, i was talking to tim about it earlier, a woman named marge, and she was basically with him. she was with him when the fun crisis came into the news. he was on a train going from northern california to oregon, and he was there and talk about what it was like when they flew to williams to meet general eisenhower. so things like that were important from the foundation side, and they were really good. and then the library was -- while tim was there was terrific, open, helpful. professional archivists. but you have -- i couldn't remember if i -- eight or nine trips trips to yorba linda, and i saw enough of the olive garden.

>> there are places other than -- >> well, there were. actually, a very good sandwich shop very- >> stephano's, a very good. well, for his career, historians are problematic and you did a very good job of navigating the shoals and talking to everybody. interviewed a number of folks who would have been interviewed by the library but then they talked to you. i would have to say that standing back, the darker side of richard nixon we know from the tapes, do you see hints of that in the 50s or do you

believe there was a change, this man actually was traumatized? >> i find this a lot. i believe there was a change. and i don't know where it dates from but probably dates from the very beginning of his relationship with eisenhower. i think he was under constant strain and security. very much like any employee hired by a sort of really top level corporation and didn't know whether he has -- whether his job was safe. wasn't until the 1956 election when nixon realized he had what could be called tenure. after eisenhower's heart attack in 1955, which we can talk about, but it's the first time people began to talk about nixon as an heir to the presidency. vice presidents were not considered heirs to the presidency. no one thought of john nance

garner or harry truman. roosevelt -- >> vice presidents didn't have an office in the white house. >> still didn't in the nixon era but eisenhower tried to keep him informed. he attended cabinet meetings and when eisenhower wasn't there he ran them. and on the security council, eisenhower sent him abroad on trips, and dulls suggested nixon should visit africa. so there were lots of things that sizen hour -- eisenhower did thursdaying to get nixon up to speed. >> do you think -- there are people who argue that it was the experience of -- a searing experience of losing such a close election to john f. kennedy in 1960 that was the

trauma. you're laying the foundation for an argument it's ike's fault. >> no. no. no. i think -- >> ike was a father figure and he couldn't please his father figure. >> i'm not going to get into psycho analysis. >> it's so much fun. >> everyone else does. >> i don't richard nixon painted himself in the bathroom. >> no. no. i just -- it was a wonderful line, thought he was inthe influence of dick cheney but in fact it was freud. i believe the 1960 election was hugely traumatic on all kinds of levels. knickson, who always regarded kennedy as a friend, he liked kennedy, won of the things i found, after nixon's nastiest campaign in california, against douglas, which got democrats to

forever turn against him. but nixon said at harvard, i'm really glad mrs. douglas lost. i wouldn't have wanted to work with her in that senate. but his application to the country club was samed. jack and jackie invited the mix nixons to their wedding. when jack kennedy was laid up in a back injury, nixon protected him and mrs. kennedy wrote to him and said, thank you, jack said -- they were i won't call them friend. they were politicians -- no one is really friends ineses in this business. >> teen o'neill and reagan were friends. >> right. they were roughly the same age, and suddenly kennedy was really playing rough. he had no -- nothing was held back, and he felt he was really being roughed up by the kennedys. they were saying terrible things about him. a rough campaign, and furthermore he thought, when it was all over, he actually won

it, and people are still arguing about that. don't forget, if he had won illinois and texas, he would have won. so, it was -- he always felt that he was -- he got royally stiffed in that election. >> there was a renaissance of interest in richard nixon and i caught in of them when i was at the library, because of george w. bush, because the people were looking bark to richard nixon and saying, you could have a good government republican, a republican who actually wanted the government to be efficient. didn't necessarily have to grow, although under nixon it did grow. but the republican party is so different now, this was the argument, because there's no room for good government republicans like nixon, and there was much more interest in richard nixon's domestic agenda. everybody has been interested in the foreign policy side, with

the opening to china and the end of the war in vietnam. but in the -- i noticed this in the second term of the bush administration there was more interest in richard nixon's domestic policy. it's a real problem for historians because on the tape, richard nixon is not always very happy about his domestic policy. i was wondering, since you were back and looking at the older period for richard nixon, where would you put him vis-a-vis the new deal? interested in a continuation of the new deal? doubting the new school in what role does he say government playing society. >> i think he certainly had no desire town due the new deal. even asking month he was very much in fav of some sort of catastrophic health plan. when nixon was growing up, his family was not poor but he had two brothers who died of tuberculosis, so there went very

good health care, and into he was very much internationalist, in spite of the isolationist wing of his party, he was a big supporter of the marshall plan and voted for it, and he was a lot of -- even if he didn't love them, he supported them. the environmental protection agency began under nixon. he brought in the pat moynihan to try to -- talk about the negative income tax, and certain standards were set about the welfare system in this country that you have to give nixon credit for. the philadelphia hiring plan for minorities and so on. so he was a pretty good domestic president. i talked to a guy names paul musgrave who worked with tim the library and he said the first few months of the nixon presidency was like a golden age, positive new ideas and

nixon was interested. you knee pieces, john osborn who wrote in the nixon watch, nix whereupon would go to decree policy meet examination sit around for houghs -- for hours loving it then its all stopped. he stopped. he lost interest in it. >> that makes him such a puzzle. >> totally. >> i was getting over a cold on the weekend and i -- i hope to get over a cold but i was watching on c-span some clips from nixon's state over the union address. i'm not suggesting this is a way of becoming healthy, but i did it. and i noticed him talking again and again about the environment. and how proud he was that his achievement in cleaning the air, and cleaning the water. and he said it, and he was proud of it, publicly, and, yet on the tapes, you have him grousing about it, not once, not twice,

but constantly, identifying environmentalism with liberals, saying that we made a mistake, we shouldn't do this, and if i ever get a choice between jobs and the environment, i always go with jobs and don't ever forget and it fire people who say they should go for the environment. it's hard to understand. on the one hand what he said publicly in the "state of the union" address, not once but three times that i listened to -- was what you would want and actually expect bill clinton, if not president obama to say. but privately, he is grousing. now, do you see in the '50s, man who is at war with himself over what he believes? >> i didn't see that. one of the most interesting things -- i kept following this thread of nixon and civil rights. i mentioned his trip to africa in 1957, and that's where he met

dr. martin luther king who was 28 years old at the time, and they got along, and king had been trying to see nixon to lobby for civil rights. wanted to get to eisenhower. he said, come see me. and they met in washington -- nixons office and stayed in touch regularly, and king really felt -- they had correspondence, king admired him and the one black man in eisenhower's when is white house was named fred morrow, and he felt completely alienated. some people the -- he saw nixon -- he said, fred, i don't think you should always be talking about jobs and issues that affect black people. you should -- that demeans you, and appreciated the sensitivity. baffling. he baffles me in so many wisdom

but the public nixon was always pretty good, and i can't forget or explain the later tapes but presidents vent. the job is terrible. it's horrible, and they have so much pressure on them, and harry truman would use the n-word, refer to jews as kikes, but people thought good old harry truman, and -- it's what they do that counts. i give nixon a little pass on the grousing he does about the liberals who always want more. >> just grousing about liberals. well, the challenge is, venting, although, again, it's the president of the united states, after all, and the president

sets the tone, but it's acting on some of the venting. in fact, acting on this anger, which is, i think, where you draw the line. >> to me, the acting on -- to me, the acting on he anger is vietnam. vietnam and watergate. they were getting into the end, to the self-destruction of this presidency, which is not my subject, fortunately. >> let me ask you. were the seeds -- if he had been elected in 1960, historians say -- we love that. absolutely love that. dinner, conversations. anyway. i if he had been elect netdz 19 -- elected in 1960 -- we would not have had a kennedy assassination. the most -- i think the most traumatic domestic event from the 20th century, we still

haven't recovered in many days. tom mallard did a review of the book, he had an interesting counterfactual digression. what if eisenhower when he had his stroke? 1957 had not recovered. then eisenhower would have been the first president to resign and then we would have had nixon at age 44 as president. he wouldn't have been the traumatized, beaten up, watergate del deluge president we got. >> i was going to say that i don't think we would have had the cuban missile crisis. i think nixon, who had been supportive of the cuban operation, to the extent it was an operation, actually was really ambiguously, vaguely formed before the election of 1960. i don't think that he would have let the bay of pigs go the way it went. and i'm also pretty convinced that you can make a strong argument that he would have

enter veeped in laos. because he had a lodge-standing interest in indo-china, so i think that u.s. military intervention in southeast asia would have started in 1961 -- i can tell you exactly when, when it all collapsed, in about march of '61. ...

and pretty vigorous in 1960. the cuban invasion if it had gone forward would've gone forward and eisenhower style with an overwhelming force that would've exceeded. he hated the idea of a ground war in asia. i think he would've said don't do it for the same reasons he managed to keep as out of any real involvement in china in 1854. eisenhower did that money over there and helped prop up the end regime. but whether he would've gone any further, i don't know. i can't imagine 550,000 american soldiers died in the graduates wore under anyone. >> i don't agree with you, but at that point as. 1961 would've played out differently had richard nixon --

>> we have the history we have. you think the kennedy assassination as a major turning point. >> idea. as we talked about, he had a two month across in 1860. he ran for governor in 1962 with eisenhower and others. dixon added log detailed memo with the cause clearly won the argument with next to. you can see the temptation, rockefellers chief rival in 1960. i can either come in second to get date. and the last in a big way. many people say it wasn't that big of a deal for him. he didn't care. he didn't want the job. he didn't care about the water supply in los angeles.

he wanted to give the growth issues. so the kids he had taken on the john birch society here and in the primary he defeated a man named joe shalhoub was not a virtue, but whatever public and who is a rose bowl hero and beaten him. said nixon's kids are being teased in school by the children of birchers. they moved to new york in the spring of 63. dixon got a job offer. he didn't have to practice love. he could be a main partner bringing in business at this wall street firms. all the names and so on. they were happy. they were going to musicals. he's at the best restaurants. nixon was having lunch with tom

dooley. they were blocking checkers along fifth avenue. tricia and julie were going to the school. in february 64. >> i can still see it. "the new york times" reporter was impressed by nixon's civil rights. in february 64, randy got tickets for julia tricia to see the beatles on the ed sullivan sold. and suddenly ken can be a scaled. he was already meeting with the national republican senator. he told roscoe drummond and a columnist for the herald tribune i'm not going to run again in 1864. i won't run in 68 or 72. anyone who thinks i'm going to seek public office again is out of his mind. he meant it.

he would've been bored, restless, but he would've have had a normal prosperous aldersgate in my. >> and he was in dallas. [inaudible] i'm not suggesting that. just because i'm wearing black doesn't mean i'm going to go into that wormhole. but he gives the press conference in dallas before the assassination and criticizes kennedy's leadership. that is strange for somebody who enjoys walking his dog in new york. >> he was going to be big spokesman for the party. he spoke in washington and he was happy to criticize the bay of pigs invasion. it was nice that he was running for some thing. he was a good republican speaking out against the

opposition. he was happy doing that. he had contempt for kennedy. >> what effect do you think the 60s have on nixon? let's mark the start of the 60s at the assassination of john f. kennedy. what do you think the effect of vietnam are mounting involvement to 550,000 troops, what effect do you think that has on his understanding of what it means to be a leader? >> that was the other thing that really affect it had. from the moment he was inaugurated, he felt under siege. his inoculation had never happened before. people were throwing tomatoes and smoke bombs.

and the pentagon papers come out. even though his secret history of the war, nixon felt that. nixon thought it was a breach of security. and certainly the counterculture had no -- he just didn't get it. i don't think it affected him. the 1968 democratic convention i think he saw as a great political opportunity. he really didn't have much contact with the counterculture and his children didn't either. julie and tricia -- david had friends at amherst who were part of it. it is not part of their lives. so if it unlike a stun gun you could almost think this

president. >> last night he was on the chart partner program and in that world of comedy he was a real republican. can see the outtakes and he finally ended up with socket to me. >> one of the things that again you have this. if immense domestic turmoil, foreign turmoil and it would be natural for a leader to feel besieged. and of story layout so beautifully. he doesn't seem to have a lot of friends in the 1950s. >> is california friends, the

drones and bob and carol fancher very good friend, even though when finch came to work, he was sort of pushed out. but he was sort a lovely man in many ways. the key to his failure as a president who's the combination of having great power come in our ms. power and you can see him beginning to exercise after he is elected, these memos he would send out addressed to mrs. nixon from the president. the >> loving. >> he suggested the book about misaligned comebacks in history. and you can see this combination of great power and great

insecurity. let's have finally brought down. >> the thing that struck me, one of the things he did at the library was started in oral history program because the library had been run privately in the federal government had catholic priest and catholic president nixon's papers in washington. inside the outcomes the outcomes of watergate. my job was to bring it together and have a federally funded administered library in california with the papers. so we started this oral history project dirtier slate. it's much better when you get people out of the administration. in another sense they had time to reflect and may be more candid. the older gentleman had been with richard nixon in the 50s. you just mention something about pushing him out. without exception, but met with him in the 15th space away

from him when he got to the white house. he brought close to the younger people. younger people he could mold and shape. a lot of the trouble that arose was the soccer people were going to do what he wanted them to do. whereas the older people and the members they interviewed were saying no, don't do this. why would we push away the people from the eisenhower. , who might've been a healthy and mature influence on. >> he would push away the saddest thing. liked him enormously. he resigned before the waters date scandal came loose. he said these orders would come

down. it had come from halterman. clearly from nixon. they all cleared out. the only one who stayed was rosemary was unveiled nixon hands. said there were people who nixon had been with them years. don has had been since the early years of his presidency. herb kline who had been a secretary were just sort of neutered and pushed away. nixon was feared to let loose his worst side. ray price, who was that herald page tribune was started nixon's good speechwriter, the generous side and pat buchanan would say

lewis said was sort of the other side had pat buchanan wrote the speech before the end of the invasion of cambodia, chile and david were unable to attend their own graduations after that. i ray price is the other side. he argued that light side ultimately won out, but at the end of the presidency, the dark side was clearly offended. >> on that happy now, we will open the floor to questions. >> is now time to take questions from all of you. raise your hand if you have a question. we have recorded for her website available to mayor morning. also c. stennis here that you'll see yourself on national television next month. anyone with a question?

first question on the way in the back. i have marked -- [inaudible] i'm zach ritter. what was taken away from the tape, the part that was erased? ciphers and things that that maybe watergate and said things about the kennedy assassination and that's partly why he wanted to break into watergate. >> he's heard many more tapes than i have. >> we don't know. i'll tell you, first of all, courts try to figure out what was on that piece of