a former republican counsel to the house commerce committee, and one of our regulars here on the program, paul kirby. thank you. >> thank you. c-span, brought to you as a public service by your television provider. >> next, the pentagon briefs reporters on their annual report to congress on the chinese military's capabilities. the report reveals that china's military budget is increasing as it continues to pursue its long-term military modernization program. this is 30 minutes. >> thanks very much, kathy, and

thank you to everybody that is here this afternoon. i appreciate the opportunity to come out to brief you on the release of the 2013 edition of the annual report to congress on military and security developments involving the peoples republic of china. the act, as amended in fiscal year 2010, mandates we publish this report in both the unclassified and classified forms. the report is a department of defense product. produced in partnership by the office of the secretary of defense for policy and the defense intelligence agency that we coordinate with the department of state, homeland security, energy, commerce, treasury, and the intelligence committee so reflects views held broadly across the united states government. we intend the report to be factual, descriptive and analytical. we try not speculate and let the facts speak for themselves. this report is where we see

happy to is headed today and the future. we talk about its strengths and weaknesses can the opportunities and the challenges that we see going forward. with that i'd like to summarize the trends and developments we have seen and that we have reported on this year. first, china continues to pursue a long-term comprehensive military modernization program that is designed to improve the capacity of the people's lib race army to fight local wars where high intensity information centric regional military operations of a short duration inch this respect we see a good deal of continuity in the terms of modernization priorities, even though we saw significant leadership transitions in china. china's leaders continue to see the modernization of the military as a central component of their strategy to advance china's national development goals in the first two decades of the 21st century. with this development china's interests have grown and its influence has spent not only in

the asia pacific but across the globe. accordingly china's military is focusing on capabilities and mission sets that extend beyond married territorial concerns the new historic missions. these include counter-piracy, peace keeping, disaster relief and regional military presence operations. so there's an opportunity here for china to partner with the international community to address the type office challenges we all face in the 21st century. however, even as the pla today is contending with its growing array of missions, preparing for contingencies in the taiwan strait appears to be a primary driver of china's military investment. over the year relations have improved but the chinese military buildup shows no signs of slowing. china places a high priority on asserting its maritime territorial claims. china has begun to demonstrate a more routine and capable

presence in both to the south and east china seas which has increased regional anxieties. champion's liters in 2012 neighborhood investment in nuclear forces, shortened medium range ballistic missiles, air and missile defendants, land attack and antiship cruise missiles, submarines, some of which are designed to enable access in area deneil situations or counter-intervention operations. within two years of the january 2011 flight test of china's first stealth fighter, which we called the j-20, china tested a second prototype, referred to as the j-31. the first j-31 flight test in october 2012 highlights china's continued amibition to produce advanced generation filet fighter aircraft. we do not expect either the j-20 or the j-31 to achieve an effective capable before 2018 in

september last year china commissioned it first aircraft carrier. the and in november it its first launch and recovery of an air craft using the j-15 fighter. we anticipate china will spend the next three or four years on training and operation before achieving an effective aircraft carrier capability. china will like by build several indigenous air craft carriers we're monitoring champion's military activities in space and cyber space in 2012, china expanded its surveillance recognizance, navigation, and meteorologistal con -- cob still layings and invests in a program to deny others access to and use of space. china's military continues to explore the role of military operations in cyberspace as a feature of modern warfare

continues to develop doctrine training and training. in addition to 2012, numerous computer systems around the world, thank you thug close owned bid the united states government, continuedded to toe be targeted for intuitions, some of which appear to be attribute el to prc organizations. this comprehensive military modernization is supported by probust increases in defense resources. on have 5th this year beijing announced a 10.7% increase in its military budget, raising the budget to $114 billion. continuing more than two decades of sustained military budget growth. however, estimating china's actual defense expenditure remains difficult due to a lack of accounting transparency, and the transsim from command economy to a market economy. china's public defense spend did tours don't include large category office areas. so, for example, last year,

china's public defense public was 106 billion u.s. dollars but when all was said and done, actual military expenditure too ref iran between 135 and $215 billion. we welcome the actions that china has taken to improve the openness and amount of information made available about its military, including the regular publication of defense white papers. however many uncertainties remain which understore -- underscores a military discussion with china. we describe our efforts to work towards a healthy, stable, reliable military relationship with china, we view this type of relationship as an important component of the overall u.s.-china relationship. indeed having this relationship is an important part or our strategy to rebalance the asia-pacific region in 2012 the armed forces in the united states and china made positive moment tim in their contacts and

exchanges. the commander of the united states pacific commander visit eed champion in june. the chief of staff visit to the united states, and then-sect defense leeon panetta's visit to china last september. we also participated in the second strategic security dialogue on the sidelines of the strategic and economic dialogue as well as the annual defense counsel talks, defense policy coordination talks and a meeting under the auspices of military maritime agreement. in addition to these improved communication, the two sides also explored concrete and practical areas of cooperation. including a first ever counter-piracy exercise last september, followed by the u.s. invitation to china to participate in the rim of the pacific exercise in 2014. we'll continue to use military engagement with china as one of several means to expand areas where we can cooperate, discuss

our differences and demonstrate the united states' commitment to security of the asia pacific region. this report has a lot of interesting information. we hope it will contribute in a responsible way to the many debates ongoing today with respect to china's military modernization, and i'd like to take a couple of questions. please. >> your report points economic espionage by china over the past year, and the year preceding. has any of that economic espionage -- is that a concern -- has shown vulnerability in u.s. defense platforms. fighter jets, the f-35 or other technology nothing. >> we highlightes a number of cases of the export control violations or potential eps nudge that are matter of public record. i would say that what we talked about is as far as it would like to say on those cases. >> but similar cases, can you

speak to whether or not that economic espionage has created concerns over -- >> we're always mindful of the potential threats to the security of our defense technology and defense systems. specifically with respect to the question of economic espionage on that, i don't have any information. >> how active do china's submarines appear to be in to what extent does china have unmanned vehicle, and how reliable are china's war planes, particularly the j-11 and j-10 sear. >> in term0s china's submarines they're investing heavily in a robust program for undersea warfare, developing submarines both convictional diesel electric powered, air independent propulsion, which nuclear powered attack submarines. so in this respect we see china

invests conservative hi in capabilities for operations in this area. in terms of your question on unmanned air systems, we have seen some reports of china marking unmanned air systems in air shows around the world, and that's something we have continue to monitor very carefully. and then lastly, with respect to the china's fighter aircraft. china continues to emphasize and prioritize building modern and more capable fighter platforms. the j-11 is one that is very similar to the sc-27 air superiority fighter. so it's a pretty capable third generation platform, i believe, and i think we'll still have to monitor china's development to the j-20 and potentially the j- 31 as fifth generation fighter. >> are you saying you haven't seen evidence of china proliferating new technology?

have you received reports? >> we have seen china actively marketing uac technologies at defense trade shows abroad. i don't have information on specific customers but there's active efforts to market the technologies to customers abroad. >> chris, with inside defense. in the last year were there any chinese weapons or capabilities that arrived sooner than anticipated or were surprising to see? >> i would say that we've been monitoring china's military investments and capabilitieses. i don't believe there's anything we saw this year that was completely unexpected. but obviously there have been cases in the past where military equipment has arrived earlier than we thought and we have to be mindful of that going forward. >> something arrived sooner than you expected? >> i can't think of anything at

that it point. we have been monitoring issues very carefully and have done a pretty good job of reporting what we see as we see it. >> tom with npr you. listed a whole series of -- i'm just wondering if you can tell us, what concerns you the most? is it the moves in the china sea? is it the cyber activities? incursions? access denial? what jumps out at you? >> i think one of the things that kind of jumps out is that as china has made progress towards greater transparency in its defense and security affairs, i think there's a lot yet that remains to be said. this report provides a lot of information, but i think this report also poses a number of questions. questions for which we don't have answers. so what concerns me is the extent to which china's military modernization occurs in the

absence of the type of openness and transparency that others are certainly asking of china, and the potential implications and consequences of that lack of transparency on the security calculations of others in the region. so it's that uncertainty that is of greater concern. >> the stealth equipment, the j-12, j-31, do you have any idea how it compares to the f-22. >> we don't make a comparison with u.s. platforms. >> julian, wall street journal. thank you for doing this on the record. wanted to ask about the island diffuse, the east china sea islands and south china sea islands. what accounts for the rise of those tensions and do you anticipate that the east china sea now will settle down like he south china sea has settled down

a bit? or will there be continuing provocations on the chinese part in terms of things like the incident we saw? >> in this report we highlight china's increased assertiveness with respect to its maritime territorial claims. obviously with respect to these claims, we encourage all parties to the different disputes or interactions to address their issues peacefully, through diplomatic channels in a manner consistent with international law enforcement our policy on this has been pretty clear. we don't take sides on the question of sovereignty in maritime territorial disputes but we certainly expect, again, all parties to address them peacefully and in diplomatically. i would be hesitant to speculate or offer -- to speculate on how these issues could unfold in the future. we certainly don't want to see a

return to friction or tension in the area, and we encourage, again, as i said before, the parties to explore diplomatic measures to resolve issues. >> is there any evidence that you have seen that -- from advanced air craft programs are actually exercising any sort of realistic training environment? or are they merely in the testing phase? >> i think both the j-20 and the j-31 are still in the prototype phase actually. and so we haven't seen them participate in train organize exercised. >> any evidence that china is exercising any of their advance ed capabilities with their partners or allies, such as north korea?

>> we do detail in this report some examples of joint training and exercises with china's partners to date a lot of the training and exercise activities focus on, i would say, more conventional and less advanced military areas, like search and rescue, or counter-piracy. it's unusual to see china use advanced military equipment. most of it has been pretty routine types of basic interactions with foreign military forces. >> as we know, the senate has just released north korean military and security a report and now the south korea president is -- how do you evaluate the situation of -- at this time and why the pentagon should now to release it,

china's military report and. >> with respect to your first question we continue monitoring the situation on the korean peninsula very carefully and maintain very close consultations and communication with our republic of korea allies, or other allies and partners in the region, and diplomatically as well with china, and russia. so, it's a very serious situation, and will continue to monitor it very, very carefully. with respect to your second question, we produced the report in part -- well, actually, because we have to. there is a law provided -- that provides for this report to be published. we strive to publish it on time every year, and many times we have been late in its production and publication, and so we got the report completed, coordinated and approved and we're putting it out to the congress and the public as soon

as possible. >> are you saying that china has been improving their military budget 10.7 but according to intelligence and other -- it may be even close to 18 to 20%? my question is as far that's report is concerned, are you concerned about china's military budget or military activities increasing the in the region? and, 2, have you spoken with the allies in the region who are really afraid or also concerned about china's activities in the region in and finally, are you concerned about encouraging pakistani and chinese military relationship on the rise now? >> well, with respect to your first question, we are monitoring very carefully champion's military modernization and the implications of that modernization, both for opportunities to cooperate with china in a multinational and

bilateral context and also for potential implications for regional stability. we consult and talk with allies and partners in the region about regional security. both, again, opportunities to cooperate, potential challenges to regional security. so, china is part of that conversation from time to time. and lastly, we monitor, we talk about, we describe in this report china's bilateral military interactions with other countries, including pakistan, and china has a very long-standing historical relationship with page pakistan. >> have you spoken with chinese in advance of the report and. >> the chinese are aware of this report. it's an annual report.

it's a requirement. so they know that it's coming. but we don't consult with china prior to the publication of the report. >> bloomberg news. the report mentions that china has sealed missile capable of hitting u.s. aircraft carriers. do you have any idea where these missiles deer employed? >> we talk about the deployment, the development and deployment of these missiles. i don't have information i can tell you today about the number of missiles in the field. but this is something that china has invested in and we're watching very carefully as it's developing that program. >> is that of a higher concern than some of the other elements mentioned in the report? because it potentially affects your aircraft carrier in the

region. >> we're concerned about the ability of china to develop missiles that can project its military power with precision at great distances from china. obviously something that can hold at risk large surface ships, including aircraft carriers, is something we pay attention to but we put in a cop text of a number of china's military developments. again, we characterize as antiaccess and denial, and the issue here is not one particular weapon system. it's the integration and overlapping nature of this weapon systems into a regime that can potentially impede or restrict free military operations in the western pacific. so that's something we monitor and are concerned about. >> invitation to china to participate in the rim exercises. have you heard back? >> i understand the chinese are interested in participating.

>> from your observation of the more than -- could you elaborate on why china got so many territorial disputes with its neighbors and -- against taiwan are the numbers increased in the capables and distance and -- >> in terms of your first question, we talk about some of china's territorial disputes with many of its neighbors itch also -- i also note that china over the past decade or two, has taken some effort to resolve peacefully a number of territorial disputes with other neighbors, particularly on the land borders. so this is -- we do talk about it in the report. but the land borders and the maritime territorial disputes. i can't speak to why china is paying more attention to them

now. perhaps than they did in the past. that's something i have to leave to china itself to address. and then in terms of the short-range ballistic missiles opposite taiwan, the numbers appear to be relatively stable in terms of the specific numbers of ballistic missiles in garrisons opposite taiwan. it's hovered around 1100 short-range ballistic missiles, but the issue that we're noting, that we pay attention to, is the capabilities of the individual ballistic missiles are improving as they're replacing the older air frames with knew examiner more capable ballistic missiles, and in addition we highlight it's not just short-range ballistic missile, it's also medium range ballistic missiles and land attack cruise missiles,

both plant and air launched. so it's taking taking in the to, the pres -- conventional precision strike weapons on taiwan continue to grow and develop. >> recommendation for taiwan? >> we don't make recommends to taiwan in this report. >> on the antimissile, can you tell us where the antiaccess threat stands now from a year or two ago? about where it was? >> well, we have seen that the -- china continues to make advances in hit modernization efforts. i don't know if i'd be able to quantify the difference between now and perhaps a couple of years ago but we have seen the deployment of advanced surface combatants with new capabilities that improve their options

for -- should they share defense or antiship cruise missiles, the advancing development of the antiship ballistic missile capability, and there's -- china is investing across the board so we continue to see improvements in that regime. over time we'll continue to see them developing in the future. >> one other question. on the territorial disputes in the south china sea and east china sea, do you see any change in their tactics or their approach over the past year and i notice the report talked about using civilian law enforcement ships. is that increase -- that trend increasing to that type of approach as opposed to pure navy warships. >> that is one of the notable developments, and i'd say over the past couple of years. it's the increasing use of civilian law enforcement or civilian maritime assets to

provide a presence and to assert china's claims in these areas. and again, just the position i said before, with respect to the maritime issues, we don't take a position on the question of sovereignty but we certainly have every expectation that all parties will address these issues peacefully in a manner consistent with international law. i would just add on the one particularly with respect to east china sea, the unilateral actions of any party will have no bearing on our position that this remains under the administrative control of japan. >> on the -- this report is the first time you say it's been deployed. accurate? is that true?

>> i think this is probably the first time it's been deployed, but in previous editions, we talked about, it's been moved out to the field, but the deployment is -- implies a limited operational capability. >> does china also have architecture place to provide the guidance and terminal guidance this weapon is supposed to be known for? >> i don't have details on whether or not they have that entire architecture in place. it's something we're watching very carefully. what i do talk about in the report is the pretty significant number of space launches that china conducted over the past year to put the architecture in place. whether or not they have all the bits and pieces put together is not addressed in this report. >> u.s. carriers are now at risk from this new weapon because we don't know if satellite architecture is in place that would allow the weapon to find

the carrier. >> we don't talk about that in this report, and i would probably say i wouldn't frame it that way. what we talk about in the report is what we sunny terms of china. we don't do an assessment on whether or not china's -- what china's capables are relative to u.s. or other countries. but we do know that china is develop this capability and all the different pieces of the architecture are being put in place. >> thank you so much. >> thank you very much. ...

>> guards stop the work is. going up she grew up. she and ulysses s. grant should 37 years together that included the hardships of war, the triumph of politics, and a challenging years in the white house. welcome to our program, our

continuing series top first ladies and floods and damage didn't let me introduce you to our two guests. a member of our academic advisory panel for this series. allied to have him here. long time when house historian and author of the president's house. nice to see you. man is a historian at the ulysses s. grant national historic site in st. louis to missouri and also working on a biography of julia grant. thank you for being here as well. we last left the series with the johnsons after impeachment. the politics, the radical republicans and reconstruction in the south. set the stage for us as they come into the white house. >> well, grants election started off with the campaign. let us have peace. people were really looking to grant to kind of bring some piece and quiet to the white house into the nation after the

war and in the years of the johnson administration. so those were grants initial efforts as he took office. >> and those were the themes that we were looking at him in his inaugural, the first inaugural, the themes that he struck when he spoke to the nation for the first time? >> and he had the added advantage of being a hero. if he was and beloved. ever else. a million young men tried to imitate his stance, his particular stance that he had. he was wildly popular and coimbra so i think he was a natural. >> the country was ready for him. >> their work. >> talk about the first lady herself. she had been the wife of a general, and that brings certain skills that along with it. what did she bring to the role in the white house? >> she brought an incredibly

strong supporting role to the president. their lives had been that way. she ultimately was very supportive of him. she would argue. but she was supportive and. they wanted to represent in the white house the ideal american family. they were not there but a few days. this huge portrait was brought in on an oxcart and hung in the bedroom. the white house have been open to the public since long ago. it put this in the red rump, this huge picture the family so the public to see it on the taurus, see this as their home, this is where they lived. so this whole symbolic callboy developed. >> since you are working on a biography, tell us about her personality and what kind of woman she was. >> she was very outgoing. >> in some ways there were opposites. they had similarities as well.

both had a fondness of riding horses and reading. she was very likable as a person. you get that not only from contemporaries of hers, but from her own memoirs as well. >> fair to say she was the better politician of the two? >> she could be very politically astute to in some of her dealings with cabinet members and their wives and the public, but she would most often differ terrace and for the political realm. >> any thoughts on her and her personality? >> she seems to have been very protective, i think, of her husband. she was not hesitant to give her opinion on things. she was a woman who cut her cloth, as they used to say, exactly where she wanted. she knew what she wanted to do, what she wanted to accomplish, and the rest of this stuff could be arranged. >> and she was unusual in the fact that she had been educated.

so she completed something like 15, 16 years of schooling. >> she had gone to a neighborhood school as a young child with her siblings and then to a female academy in st. louis, a boarding school that she attended. until about age 18. >> the grant administration is a 2-termer. it was full of so many stories. are for us to find just a few to put on the screen to give you a sense of what it was like. in 1870 president grant was successful in having the 15th amendment to the constitution ratified. giving people the right to vote regardless of race. of course not women. and then in 1871, the first acts were passed. that was anti kkk legislation. it was something that president grant was much involved in. and that was to protect voters in the south against the rising work of the kkk. 1873, and we will talk more about this later.

the panic of 1873, a big downturn that resulted from some of the policies of the administration. and in 1876, the battle of little big horn was fought. that is just some of the important points. well, as he brings on his cabinet, a story of the grant administration is that they were no strangers to political patronage. so to both of you, what kind of advisers did he surround himself with? and, again, how involved was julia in that process? >> most of the people that grant appointed, at least to his cabinet committee avenue of one new personally. for example, elihu washburn, a former congressman of illinois he appointed as secretary of state. thank you for having supported, for watch for having supported in through the war. and others were business people

that he thought would do the best jobs. some of them turned out to be not so trustworthy as deserving of as he had placed them in. >> at the top. so what kind of tone did the grand set for their cabinet? >> that first grant made the decisions himself, and that thing that caused some friction with congress, especially members of his own party you expected him to consult with them in his selection of cabinet members. he made his decisions entirely on his own. >> i think the whole theme of the era was excess and great success. it was before the panic, the national panic of 73. and the people that grant associate with people like themselves who would come from

not a lot and had been a whole lot. and so whether what to tell whether it was in business or military or what he was attracted dozens of people. she was. the entertainment. it was certainly a more loose superstition by the government and to date over what politicians did. and grant, the idea was that grant would be the chief executive over a great company. a white house is called the executive mansion. the white house was just one street. to the executive mansion. this is pretty sick of a great nation lived. the congress was the board. they're in the country. and that was oversimplifying, but sort of the idea. granted not always stick with it. >> you know the insides of the white house like nobody else. we have some video of what is now the white house tree room. also people that right now. that was the round at grand used for is cabinet. we are looking at the pictures right now. can you tell us a little bit

about the table that is in the room? >> they purchased the table, the grants purchase the table in 1871, as i remember. in philadelphia. it's been in the white house ever since. it was brought back initially with the kennedy administration, but it was used to the beginnings of theodore roosevelt to administration. very elaborate the table supposedly made for the same purpose. in that room again made it into a reception room where he took reports, clerks took reports. and then andrew johnson ticket as the cabinet room. grant reforested as the cabinet room. other things that you see here, the sofa and the back and different things were in the house. it was a grubby run them when this today. lots of political memorabilia.

>> definitely cigars. >> sure. >> president gramm was not to smoke up to 26 hours a day, is that right? >> yes. he picked up that have a during the civil war. one of his victories he was sent cigar's. in appreciation to. >> and we invite your participation in our program. every week. you can do it in a number of ways. call us. (202)585-3880 if you live in the eastern and central time zones. if you live in the western mountain and pacific time zones and beyond, our phone number, (202)585-3881. and also send this message on facebook. we have some interesting questions coming in. find the facebook page and join the conversation, and you can tweet us. use-tag first lady's. we will include some of your questions, comments and our conversation.

well, julia grant, by all accounts love life in the white house. here is one of "similar to the one we used in the outset. my life in the white house was like a bright and beautiful dream. how did she departure time there? >> she considered herself hostess to the nation. does he was going to do her best to ensure that she acted in that manner that the public would have received very well. she did compare her time there to our life, her early life at white haven. i think that was more a reflection of the fact that it was the first time in many years that the family spent eight years to get it without separation. >> because -- >> correct. >> and part of her job is she clearly envisioned it was to make this a model house for the nation. other first ladies have felt the weight.

they entertained lavishly. not in advance since but an elegant fence. this diplomatic man could see and served big slices. so julia let him go. valentino, a well-known chef in new york. he came there and turned it into a very cosmopolitan table. flowers. costume. she was a very stringent woman about rules. all the white house staff had just one business students. that to be in full dress and had to stand attention in the entrance all eight shifts. there's a story, when a woman would come to the reception.

if you do not wear a hat you were part of a house party greeting guests. if you did your an outside guest women would time to time going to the coat room and take their hats off. mrs. grant said, then never repeated that a second time. >> how was this received? one of the of the things i was happening is that there was quite a burgeoning press corps, lots of coverage of the couple in the white house. >> a lot of very good press describing them. people were so interested in him all the details of what he did. he would appear in public, he and his friend, general neal who moved across lafayette park would get in races down pennsylvania avenue on their sulkies with their horses. as you know, grant was absolutely a horseman to his soul. his father dealt and horses. he was raised that way. grant new horses. he had quite a stable. he brought his own coachman to the white house. hawkins stayed there until the

automobile took over as head of the stables. was a black man in a very, very grand looking. the uniform and managing stables . and grant would spend time in the daytime in his stables. but the elegant thing was part of the story. the public liked it because it looked good. it looks successful. it looked peaceful. of course, that accumulation of successful france, which was easy to do, was one of the sad things. trust the people that he should not trust. >> well, i think the fact that, as you said, the family was there and so while there was this opulence on one level, it was very down-to-earth in the fact that the four young children still at home. for example, the close of the backyards of that the children to play. >> a public place. >> exactly. >> help people understand the economy of the united states at

this point. was the south still reeling in the years after the war? >> it depends on where you work. louisiana sugar came right back on its feet. was as right as it was another can of 1883. but you go up into mississippi and there are some pretty horrible intolerances. it is not of land on sherman. collapse of the counter bargain because the english went to india forgotten. and that lapse of years, you know, the blockade, it broke them. i mean, new orleans' first. 6,000 human soldiers elected to settle in new orleans. and it was -- it was not all like gone with the wind with everyone starving. it was coming back, but it was a different culture. would not be agricultural. agricultural forces until later in the 19th century. >> the north was in the midst of great big industrial revolutions. these are the days of the big financiers on wall street. tell us more about what was happening. >> thanks in part to the war,

the machinery of war. >> a continuation of the war coming expansion, and there were getting ready for the centennial of the nation. and showing off the advances that have been made in the past hundred years. most of those were technological advances. the old farming equipment to the new, modern technology. transcontinental railroad, transportation was bringing people closer together, making it much easier to get cross country. >> here are just a few of those big things that happened during the grand presidency. as pam mentioned, the transcontinental railroad was completed in 1869, just as the grants are coming into the white house. 1870, the establishment of the national weather service and the issuing of their first forecast. to 71, the great chicago fire happened. 1872, the first national park was established in yellowstone. and as we just heard in philadelphia centennial exhibition, how big a deal was

this for the nation to celebrate its anniversary? >> huge. >> absolutely. >> it was almost like the world fair. people from all over the world attended it. it was really a time for america to shine and become -- show that it was coming into its own as a world power pack -- >> and mrs. gran loved it. she went there and what to think of the white house with public money. one was a shield that shut characters from milton's paradise lost. and then she bought a more enduring peace. i don't know what happened to that. a centerpiece. she hated the old james monroe centerpiece from 1818 with the mayors on a. so she bought a hiawatha silver centerpiece, which is about this big. it shows the geechee gimme. and then the canoe in the middle of it. lounging on a bearskin rug. and that was the new centerpiece for the white house. she bought it at the fair.

it was on exhibit. still in the seventh clause of the white house. >> so, did julia have any hired assistance to help her at the white house? our first lady's staff at this point in the process? >> there was a social secretary and. initially the ladies get together and fill the blanks for invitation. it was, you know, president and mrs. grant and the hon. blank blank. there friends would come over for a two-party and it would fill out the banks usually. she had the housekeeper. the one who travel to europe with her. >> i think so. >> there were very close. she called him a most excellent man. i daresay she helped with some of that, but most of the social duties, there might be a clerk from the office that would help, but there was no social staff until mrs. theodore roosevelt. >> here is a question about their days preceding coming to the white house. he wants to know, grant's family was often closed by during the

war in washington d.c. in julia have a present in washington before the election? >> i would say yes. >> yes. actually, because grant was still head of the army after the war. and then for a short while in turn secretary of war. and they -- she talks about the receptions, she held -- that they held in their home in d.c. and then the natural progression into the white house. >> don't you think she was one of those women that attracted people? she was a personable woman, and she cared about people. someone had our timer something, she went to them. she was a nice person. people were attracted to our. >> one of the interesting stories that i read, the allusions to the tensions between mary lincoln and julia grant. gillibrand would come during the war years, suddenly sometimes with the general, but it seemed as though there was some -- a bit of competition that mary

lincoln might have felt between the two. just this one though paragraph from a book called rating of first ladies. he writes, on another occasion chilly would send her marriage to a military camp. she imperiously commanded juliet's to leave the room as is done in royal courts. very cordially to back away from our southern chilean never turned her back on the first lady as if the first lady were queen and julia mere, honor. the humiliating treatment was intended to provoke an outburst, mary lincoln failed. julie later denied she had any ill feeling about her treatment at the hands of the first lady. >> i'm not familiar with that. >> and not familiar with that one either. it happened during the steamboat base there were problems there. and she is very kind and recollections of mrs. lincoln, but when those recollections were dictated it was years later and mrs. lincoln's tragedy, you know, her insanity and all that. happened, but there were -- she

was very jealous of lincoln, women and lincoln. she will be very ugly to people. in may a remark ones that he was a feisty yours. you need a fast horse like that to keep up with your husband. and what you mean by that, sir. >> we are going to see videos of a few of the grants preserve sites. you work at one of them. how many of their altogether? >> there are several homes that are owned and operated by the national park service or the various states there are located in. grant's tomb and of course, each of the battlefields have connecting sites. >> the first one is in illinois. now, in modern years this sounds fairly shocking, but because of his great achievement in the war

, when he came home people build and gave him a fully furnished house or at least more than one of them. how was that you? was that considered ethically appropriate to do? >> apparently so. it was welcoming a hero. -- >> look at the british. wellington. i mean, it was done. houses were given to people. it is unusual to see in american history, but it was certainly done with them. he had to sell most of them. the money. but there were furnished. >> we will visit the illinois house. this is where the grants live in the years after the war and before coming to the white house let's take a look as it sets the stage for the presidency. >> the sum was a gift. thirteen businessmen purchased to give to the grant family and

appreciation for his service during the war. mentions in her memoirs coming up the hill and being presented this of the villa that she said -- she said was friends with everything that taste good offer. while i am now is the parlor, which was the entertaining part of the home. of course we all know that julia was an avid entertainer, loved it. family spent quite a bit of time here in the parlor also. we know that mrs. grant and their daughter played the piano. so you imagine a family sitting here, that general and his favorite chair, the other boys you're listening to their sister and mother plays songs for them. they entertained in year. julia and maybe alan, you know, play a little song for their guests. grant launched his can -- presidential campaign from here. his headquarters relocated at the desoto hotel. the day after his election can't enjoy the open up their home in the parlor here for people, townsfolk to file through and congratulate both of them on his election and the next up in

their lives. this is the general and mrs. transparent. the bet here is the oldest piece that we have. probably the most personal. the original bad that they brought with them putting down some routes year. in the left here. you know, even through all their troubles and the white house. this is called a let book. separately kept papers impends, our correspondents for when she was writing letters or receivina religion was very important. her grandfather was a methodist minister. so growing up it was important her and she instilled that in the children. they attended the methodist church here, which that you that they used is still marked the church. the grant family pew. over on the dresser we have a bible that was given to mrs. grant by the methodist episcopal church in 1888.

this is the dressing room, the most personal space in the house relating to julia grant. this is the room where she would come and to be ready in the morning, get ready in the evenings and are ready for bed, and just to come into maybe kind of just did a little solitude from everybody in the house. we have a lot of personal things in here. we have for selling kate that she probably would have used to mend some socks for the kids are the general, so but not. we have a couple of pairs of her little size four shoes that she wore. some persons that she would have used as they were going out on the town visiting on a sunday afternoon. the majority of the furnishings that we still have in house to belong to the grant family when there were here. if they walked to the door to their recognize this house and probably feel right at home because it is furnished the same as when every year. this is where he came back after he was a military hero and started his political career here basically, his rise to the presidency. this is where he was living when he was elected and she became first lady and this was home to

them right before the end. >> did they ever consider returning? >> they visited for a while as they did at white haven, but settled in new york, in part to be closer to the children, three of the children, the boys were living in new york city. the daughter was in europe. and part of it, we think, was the social life in new york was a little bit more enjoyable for julia than san louis. >> they had five children, four of whom live to maturity, one child died. >> oh, my goodness. >> the only had four children. >> you do find things from both of those that are very -- >> by then she had renounced citizenship and was english. we have not talked about that. >> and we shall. but we just saw the family that

they created in illinois. talk about the family life that they created in the white house. >> one thing i like to tell about family life is it makes me want to be a fly on the wall. general grant, as you face the white house on your right there were green houses that were built upon the top of the wing, the west wing, not the offices. they weren't there. just a straight line. general grant built between that and the house, billion from. it had stained-glass senate. and all sorts of things. and he would invite his old civil war crimes they're to play billiards. >> and smokes cigars. >> and smokes cigars and maybe drink a little. and they would end up going into the red room. reliving the battles. taking an object of the table and putting in on the floor. this is meant to speed read this is vicksburg, whatever, and reliving. and imagine seeing that. but that is the sort of

informality live with with their friends. and the mazes, of course, very moralistic and try to show morals. they tore the billiard room down immediately. >> we also have some video of this white house family dining room. it was told that the grants gather there as a family for breakfast every day. what is that run like today? we will look at it once again. >> very dressy today. it does not look anything like it did. it reflects more theodore roosevelt and deal roosevelt lived there in 1902. a big party family breakfast from. in he served from the pantry through those doors on the side. and the dishes were washed there. the family gathered there at this great big table. every family did. that was the little dining room. and through the doors it was then a staircase and a big dining room where state occasions were held.

in 1902 this room was turned around and incorporated into the dining room. the grants addition was removed. the state dining room up today. >> grant's family had four children. we have established that. or all of them living at the white house? >> the oldest son had received an appointment to west point and the johnson administration, so he was coming and going. the and children were still there. julia talks about the dining room table, how ulysses sometimes, the kids would play around, play games and take pieces of bread and rolls into a ball and throw it at the kids come at the boys. play with them. she disapproved. yes. but she also recalled upstairs in the white house, the private family area, all of the children and ulysses coming into her room about half an hour before dinner. they would all just sit and talk

and share their days, comings and goings in the events. she would recall that very fondly. >> very lenient parents. they had their -- i think fred was the most disciplined. and then block, he was the second one. ulysses a little less. and he actually talked back. he could check made a lot of things his father said. each other was funny. >> here is our first caller. watching as a newport virginia. hi. you are on. welcome. >> i. how are you doing? i would like to know more about julia. i understand that her family, can you talk more about her family? >> thank you. very briefly because we are going to spend more time with and a little later. give us a quick synopsis. >> sure. julia's parents came to st. louis in 1816. and to establish their family in

the city of st. louis and then the country home at white haven where she grew up and most of her summers and then you're around. she had four older brothers and two younger sisters. so it was a rather large family. they considered themselves southerners. and mr. father did. and they were slave holding family. there were as many as 30 slaves caramel and utilized later at white haven. >> and this kirk -- caused great tension. >> as a matter of fact, when ulysses and julia were married in this city of st. louis, none of the grants attended the wedding. reportedly because they did not approve of ulysses marrying into a slave holding family placed it is father actually live in the white house for some time? >> and died there. >> and how was that received? >> is living there? well, he was a jolly old man.

he was not really a colonel. he was very heavy, lightheaded, and funny. and that is probably where she got it. and the grant's father, jesse, would come. he was a horse trader. and in entrepreneur or. he would go around to the departments and try to make them buy horses and hides and whenever from him. the two of them, just the repartee was unbelievable in the white house. the colonel called print jesse grant, that old gentleman over there. they teased each other a lot. >> a good-natured teasing? >> they would have been stopped if it hadn't been. >> very different views about the world. >> very. the old call was very little. everybody loved in washington. and grant was never around long enough. always willing in dealing somewhere. >> get the metals on facebook rights, it seems a social user has been a military direction to organize and command the white house. that seems to hold strong even

today. more influential then she realized, it seems. did she bring military organization to the running of the white house? >> i think that is quite fair. a good remark. good idea. she brought a real order and organization. she demands the money, the people. the servants were double to 30. and all of them -- of the perils exist. she very much interacted with them. there was one named henry harris, a man who worked at the white house to allow the children. she suggested to begin with and then she was very emphatic that he stuck by washington real-estate. well, he died a wealthy man. but she -- jerry smith is another favorite of hers. the members of the staff. and she ran the whole thing. and with the help of the dormant. i think alike the remark of how the military was organized. she seemed to run things the

wake. >> found the white house and the state of disrepair. and we were talking about this before the program. a bit of a different view. we both read about the fact that there were infrastructure problems and-tackle this and also did agree refurbishment of the design. >> well, lot of it was a perception that she wanted to present to the public. to this was the nation's home as well as their home. there were only a temporary resident. she also was concern in some ways that the fact that she was from the west, i should call the , the issue would not have the social acumen that many of the eastern families would have expected. she wanted to insure that what she did would meet with the approval of the nation and socially leads.

she immediately talks about not even moving into the white house right away because she is going through and cleaning things up and getting things organized. >> and the money for that came from congress? congress appropriated the money. >> andrew johnson originally. and johnson, his daughter patterson, ms. patterson had completely redone the white house inside, repainted, redecorated in all. julia grant says in her memoir that should change the furniture around. very stylish in the 1860's not to have sense anymore. people are reacting to mass production. mrs. patterson and everything mixed up. it would like artistic. mrs. grant went in and pull everything together in sets again and put tidied those on the back of the furniture. she did that, and then, of course, later redecorated the east german did some work in 1974 on the house. >> the style was what? >> they call it general grant. it was probably at the time neil break.

a : sometimes, steamboat gothic. >> steamboat of it. i concede in my mind. on twitter, with the grandchildren educated at home or in school? >> they did it in schools. even during the war. the boys were sent to various schools. was the grass moved east when his responsibilities call in east, the boys went to school in burlington, new jersey. jesse and nellie would have been schooled in washington d.c. >> and we did not really establish this, but it was implied or inferred. michael asked on twitter, what did julia grant think of the decision to seek the presidency in 1968? was a something she supported? >> she did, but she was initially hesitant. she said she had always wanted to marry a dashingly tennant. always saw herself as a life of the general. and so initially there is this

change into the president's. he was elbowed -- she was not sure, and she was not sure if elises really wanted either. she asked him and he said, no, he really wasn't interested at but felt that he was the one that the nation could best use at that time. >> happy as an army wife. she left the army. an army people. >> at that point. >> but he was still a famous general. and she relished that. however, eight years later she was not so happy about leaving the presidency. >> we should say that in those years in between, and this is the story of their life. so many ups and downs economically. a great success and in financial ruin. after he left the army he struggles. is that correct? something that he could do well. >> resigned from military in 1954. he had been stationed on the west coast. julie was living in white haven in st. louis. she had made the journey within two years earlier because was pregnant with their second child

. and so grant resigns from the military in 1854 to come back to st. louis and rather ironic, he says that he supposedly told someone, if anyone hears me in ten years there will no he was an old missouri farmer. 1864, he was general of all the army. >> quite a turn. >> back to st. louis to farm. just getting started in those years. it was rather difficult. there was economic panic. and the weather. and so he held a couple of different jobs in the city of st. louis. >> and also we will show a low bit more of that. lets the people are asking. you alluded to it. >> romantic, dramatic event to happen in the white house police

as the british burned it down. seventeen. she meant. and englishmen on the ship. there were engaged to be married. disapproved. she was so young. twenty-first 8074, they redecorated the eastern for. the basic would work was left and they added more. mayors and police and all sorts of things. there were not a lot of invitations. but the streets were mobs. you could not get near the place. and walt whitman, i brought this little. walt whitman was there and wrote, nobody bride, yield leverage each today into the nation's living guess. and all the papers. it was just the most wonderful

thing. she married next to a huge wedding bell. they have the president's assembled according to the stores where there were bought. the table with his name on it. and there was a wedding breakfast and then a left. she very much credit. petitioned congress to give it back. did get it back. >> i think she actually had to renounce our citizenship by marrying someone from england and then leaving over there. >> never happily. >> no pier reportedly after the wedding was over grant went upstairs and just fell on the bed. so upset. >> track a lot. spend a lot of money. it was not happy. they have four children?

>> i think so. mom died in infancy. >> she died in 90 something. she died later. >> one of the things, we shows so many photographs of julia. they are often from the side. one of our viewers is asking on twitter -- excuse me. never saw straight again. how did she stay so active and involved? >> i read one instance where it was supposedly caused by an injury, but my understanding is that she was born with what today we would call a lazy eye. when i turn again, and she was very self-conscious about that. a feeling that especially as grant rose to the more she to do something about it. on two separate occasions she attempted to have a surgeon or gone awry.

grand found out about it and told her that he had fallen in love with her the way she was. >> from lancaster a mile. >> thank you. i have a question. has been a rumored that grant like to derek a lot. had visually handle this situation is? >> well, there is not a whole lot of proof that grant was a truck. he drank. a lot of people drink. in their stories about him being dropped, said in an stores and things like that, when you lay it all on the table it does not go very far. we went through a lot of trouble in the years before the civil war. he had hard times.

it was a national depression of the worst kind. the panic of 1857, and it was only ended by production in the civil war. so he was trying to do business in those terrible years. he was drunk all the time. they're really isn't much in the documentation for that. >> rumors are greatly exaggerated, some of the things that i have looked at an indicated that on the west coast after being separated from his family for two years he was definitely depressed and missing there is no evidence that he was forced to resign from the military at that time. later during the civil war when some of the rumors came up again it seems to have often been when other generals were jealous of grants success band this is no way to possibly bring him down a stepper to.

of course lead in is rumored to have said all the they are not a proven story, that when congressman came to him saying remove grant. he is a drunk, he cannot be running the army. he reportedly asked them, find out the type of alcohol that gramm was drinking. he would order barrels for all of his generals. >> his success on the battlefield. we have some much to cover and so little time. often when you see historian's analysis of the grant administration it brings very close to the bottom. for the many scandals that accomplish the administration. what to people need to know? where are the most important ones? >> actually come nestorians have been reassessing grant's presidency. i think that ten year of c-span

has moved him from 33, 13 years ago, to 23. so he is improving in perspective. and a lot of that has to do with his actions regarding civil rights for the newly freed african-americans in the country. >> he did do that, but it does not take away from the domestic scandals and the corruption. we need to talk about it. >> they were peripheral to him, and most of them, i'd say all of them have been going on before his time, some as far back as lincoln. >> some suggest that julia grant was in the middle of one of these. do you both contests that? >> yes. she talked about the black friday incident where they tried to capture of the gold market or corner the gold market. and juliet talks in her memoirs about that. the only one thing she knew

about was when grant had her write a letter to her sister-in-law. it's actually grant sister, virginia who was writing that was reportedly involved in this and trying to persuade rant. grant has are right to virginia saying, be careful. then he turns around and sells off government gold to bring that to a stop. >> martha is watching us from charleston, south carolina. >> hi, susan. thanks again for another terrific show. you alluded to my question earlier in the show about the possible tension between julia grant and mary lincoln. and then you visited the beautiful belly and a home that was given to the grants i am not sure, was a during the

same time that mary lincoln was trying to get attention out of the government? here grand has a home given to him. and mary lincoln was in germany trying to educate her son. i believe that the grants later on visited mary lincoln when she was in france. is that correct? >> they in fact didn't appear be. >> they crossed paths, julia says she did not find out about mary lincoln being in the same town. >> to you agree with the irony of the fact that mary lincoln was struggling in looking for a pension after her husband was the chief executive in the war and that they had these houses given to them? >> it seems extremely unfair to mrs. lincoln. >> she was seeking a pension from the government and house were given by private. >> right. >> i'm in amate made a different

spirit of congress to not approve of pensions. the congress was older. there were vigilant. it was not all that bad a congress. there were vigilant. they exposed three major scandals. closest to the white house. got involved. >> congressional oversight. >> founding. and he was tried. grant testified. >> submitted testimony. he did not actually come to st. louis. >> have they ever done that? >> next, sherry in independence, missouri. >> the answer of our question, but eyesight. have another. being so well educated, did julia speak other languages? and i also understand, after they left the white house there

were really party animals. i will hang up. thank you. >> she may have learned some french role she was in school. but not on a real conversational basis that i know of. the world tour which may be what the caller was referring to as far as the partying. it took a two and a half your world tour and welcomed by the public and by royalty throughout the world. and most of the time they had to have an interpreter while there were there. >> we learned that at least mary lincoln doubt that washington looked down upon her as a westerner. and a question from dave murdock on twitter, the washington look down on julia has been one of the first lady's from west of the mississippi? >> i never found that. she was more sure of herself. she went after it. she was one of the people ajanta

metal. she considers of the head of women society in the capitol, and she was accepted. she was friends of all of the people in washington, all of the indices and everywhere. she was a go getter type of woman. and mary lincoln sat back and waited for people to come to hurt. >> another one of the sites associated with the grants and we will learn more about what influenced early childhood that white haven outside st. louis. >> this is the historic, known as white haven where julia dent grant spent many of her childhood years. she was not born here. she was born in this city of st. louis that they're city home but spent all of her summers initially, i year-long. she grew up watching the boys play out in the yard or sister playing the guitar. is where she has released memories.

that trees were waving in welcoming her back to earth shall the tom. that was when she was about two years old. very early memory. they would have entered it through the main door into the foyer. and from here would have gone most frequently into the formal parlor. they would have been welcomed by the colonel and mrs dense, julia perhaps. learning how to a be a lady and welcome guest and company to the home near. some of our finest memories from the dining room here at white haven include the meals that were served year. meals are always served by that and dense, enslaved housekeepers. she talked about white china with gold trim and the cut glass. she talks about the slave cook making maryland biscuits and the

games that will be played over the dinner table with the children as well talking and laughing about the day's activities. from here after dinner the guests -- close families and friends would have come into the fitting room. that is where the family what has been more of their personal time in the evenings playing games the game table, checkers and chess again, lots of leading taking place. on the second floor of white haven were two rooms that cirque his bedroom. most likely would have shared this bedroom. and frequently in the 19th century when you had a nice upstairs porch area, the boys would have slept out there in the summertime. and we know much about white haven. from those memoirs. the first first lady to ever

write her memoirs. she spent a lot of time talking about her life here at one given . >> and there we saw our guest. and her day job. >> this is the color that grant had the house painted after his death. purchased the property from julia's family. >> seventy-four. >> during the civil war they purchased. >> where and when did you the cs first encounter julia? she seems rather short and he tallish. >> he was about 5-foot eight and she was about 5-foot two. they met at white haven. a roommate of julia's brother abbas. about 5 miles off they invited

ulysses to visit his family out that white haven. granted that in september of 1843. and then in february of 1844 jollier returned home from the schools who was attending in the city. and rant and julia say that initially those visits have been about once a week to waving, but once she returned home and he met her, those visits were daily. he proposed stir within three months. >> and we learned that they were a slave holding family. a number of questions about the families and personal attitudes toward slavery. came from a family where father owned slaves. is it true that she had slavery sympathies? >> initially she did. she had been born and raised a white haven with the enslaved individuals providing everything that she needed. and, in fact, at one point says that she thought she the -- she said the sheet of the house kept

itself with all the work was being done. >> the family. >> there were as many as 30 slaves that the colonel and according to the census records. and so once she fell in love with and married ulysses, it kind of put her in the middle between these two opposing viewpoints. she talked about growing up, some of those in the late individuals were playmates. these are the same individuals then that would provide the work on the farm. and the older individuals, she considered them to be part of the family. and send out pools, a typical way of addressing these individuals. well she consider them part of the family, they're obviously

did not. >> with they have been no less swiveling family? >> granted on one sleeve that he acquired from julia's father. free william jones in 1859. she did not actually own any. father never made illegal transfer. that would have been grants property. in so i think that counting that , counting jones. >> that would have been the last. >> they all laughed. >> yes. >> is it an untrue story? >> that is a true story.

>> and there's for children. they would travel as well. >> the error -- not lost america? >> it does not seem to have been she talks about how black julia, as she was called, almost captured at holly springs. then left and one of the trips. >> in your thoughts. on twitter. did you have any thoughts? >> i only know that she, when asked if colored people, as they said in their request, were to be admitted to the reception she said yes. she said she never remembered any attending. but i think it or stop to the gate by the guards. in their treatment of the staff

at the white house, it was a personal 1-on-1 thing with her. i imagine that is so she sought. personal relationship. you're on the air. >> thank you. part of the retirement, grant received after u.s. out of the presidents and after the war. >> retirement fee from the government. >> yes. >> was there a pension for presidents? >> no, there was not. for president or for his military service. it was not until sure of it before his death that congress awarded in the pension. >> and we will talk about how he'd found a way to make some money during that time a little bit later. we have about half an hour left in our 98 minute portrait of

julia grant. >> do you have a minute for a story? >> always. especially if it is a good one. >> mr. williamson called then and was talking about his size. he was small. you always think of him, a bit scruffy with a beard and a cigar well, when he was a young lieutenant he was very small. there were down in mexico. the mexican war. the soldiers were being entertained. they get together and did a production of a fellow. and gramm was elected to played desdemona, which she did to great success. and later when the famous actress, the great western can't entertain the troops and took the part, the audience booed and put grand back upon the stage to play. >> following upon the questions about her views on women, asking, pardoned by president grant, did you have any influence on this decision? >> don't know if she had influence on that decision.

.. for a short time at the main house white haven. but living under his father-in-law's roof was not what he wanted for his family. and he built a log cabin for

julia and their children. his family grew. and so going to see that log cabin. >> we call the julia from a wealthy family. and you saw would look like. we'll see what kind of house they built for her as the first married home together. let's take a look. >> we are standing inside hard scrabble. which is a two-story log cabin grant built for his family in 1856. julia lets us know she doesn't like it one bit. she found it crude and homely. but true to her nature, she will make the best of it. farming his own land, having his own home on the land. having the own place to begin their life again, to renew the marriage is what inspiring him. saying i own our own house. julia is comfortable with that.

she wants her own home too. she wants to be the mistress of her own home. she thought she could build something as nice and a little perturbed that her father talked grant in to building a log structure. the cabin itself may be rustic. whitewash u would have been typical to help with bugs but it reflects light the rooms would been open and a little more cheery but rustic. julia would have brought finer. things. as a privilege child she would have fine china and furpt, comfortable chairs and a broad table. you haded at this point she would have five people eating. it's not a cook fireplace. these are not set up for cooking. kitchen off the back with servant in the particular case. it was still slavery.

enslaved people coming in and serving julia and grant and their children here in the dining room. what is important about hard scrabble for them, and even though they do not live it in it very long, it rents their very first home together. julia will great a great deal as confidence and white and mother. it starts here. >> and the question from sheldon cooper, as an army wife, did jewel can find any location for her home more than any other. >> she considered white haven her home. in fact in the memoir, she compares the white house to white haven because of the home that it represented. they traveled so much and had so many different headquarter or homes around the country that it would have been next to impossible to -- but she created

home whenever she was. >> that's the purview of army spouse. we have one more video of white haven. the beautiful green structure we showed you earlier. you have to be to our website to find it. they are putting a special feature on the website at c-span.org/first lady. we have video there which will show you the grant's life together. you are looking at the glimpse now. it looks green. >> it's like paris green. >> that's just john watching us in washington state. you are on the air. >> caller: my name is john grant. no relation to you -- my grant grand uncle was on the staff. i have a copy of his diary, and in it it mentions the number of times when he was in washington that he would have lunch with

the general grant's wife. and i was wondering if anybody could get elaborate on that. you know, mostly here about general grant and the board escrow page. after words, you know, does anybody -- has anybody ever heard of that? he married elizabeth blair, i think it was her grandfather was the secretary or postmaster general under lynn cop. -- lincoln. do you know anymore for him? julia entertained so much that quite possible -- i recognize the name come stock from the civil war years and the memoir in the white house. and frequently congressman or

people who were looking to get in to see grant would do that through julia or gain favor from grant. they would frequently go through julia, she was easy and assessable to them. >> our next is a call from judy watching us in brooklyn. >> caller: good evening. i have two questions. since general grant smoked so many cigars, i was wondering if julia and the children have any residence respiratory problems. -- confederacy, what would the relations like during the administration with england? >> thank you. good question. neither julia north children ended up with any respiratory problems. of course, grant ended up with throat cancer from smoke those cigars. it did eventually kill him.

as far as england was concerned, one of the first issues grant had to deal with as president is the claim against england for the support of the confederacy. and he actually set up the first ever international arbitration and credited with peacefully resolving the dispute with england. >> we'll take another call. larry in pennsylvania. hi, larry.. >> caller: hello. i'm been watching your serious. >> thank you. >> caller: my question, i recently read "the general's wife." and one of the comments that she makes in her book is that julia's father didn't care for grant at first. i was wondering for you could comment on that. >> she told grant she would not like the military life. she was raised with everything. and would definitely have to do without. >> and they also had disagreements about over

slavery. >> yeah. i think it was personalized. i think he thought that grant was not going to amount to much financially. would not be able to give her for what she took for granted. they are right about that. >> julia was her father's favorite child. the first daughter before or after four sons. according julia, colonel actually offered, when he told you the wife of the army wasn't what julia was set for. he offered her sister tell kneel to grant. which grant obviously turned down. and continued to try to convince the colonel that no matter what it took. he would be the one to make julia happy. >> some of the concerns may have been vailed because grant was a great warrior.

great general. most of the other venture he got involved with -- 1844 or 1843 nobody knew that grant would become the success. he was in the army, he wanted to get out and be a professor. he goes on to a -- career in wall street and loses lot of money. >> it's actually his son. who is the joins with . >> it was fred. he loses the money. >> did it the family -- [inaudible] the defected all the family fortunate. basically ferdinand had everyone fooled. he was basically called a wall

street wizard. he was may being everybody money hand over fist and that should have rung some bells. just like today, it doesn't. >> yeah. and he ended up grant lost just about everything. >> well, this is a question on twitter. how did grant lost all the estate and money. was it due to a drinking, gambler, financially irresponsible. >> no, no, no to all of that? >> no. correct. >> a man probably who concentrated on finance like people who money do. i don't think that was the first thing in the life ever. he would have liked to have a lot of money. i think a lot of other things interested him. >> was he a bad judge of character? >> he talks about when the financial failure happens with ferdinand where ward comes to junior and then to grant himself and says the bank in a little bit of financial strait.

can you borrow money? we need to get through the next few days and grant accepts that. borrows $150,000 from william vanderbilt, and ferdinand ease cons the money to canada and the fortunate is lost. grant says that he doesn't know if he'll be able to trust anyone ever again. >> we have them in the post white house years. we haven't talked about them leaving the white house. people watching should know this. at the time there were no restrictions on running for a third term. >> yeah. >> did the grants wish to seek a term? >> no. there were many anemia want the him do. she did. when he -- declined. he didn't tell her. he gave the letter without telling her. she began to be suspicious. they are upstairs at the home in the white house and said you can't do this. he said i declined. she said you can't do this to me. i want . >> she wanted to continue being

first lady. >> he said it's done. that's it. and she seems to have held up fine until when they got on the palace car, they call it, the train car and she said she went to a broofm and fell on the bed and sobbed and cried and wept. she hated to leave the place. >> she said she felt like a wife with no home. she wasn't sure what was going to happen. >> surely she felt it before. >> right. >> she loathed to leave. in fact, did they plot a comeback? >> once. >> when they returned from the world tour there was known to thought that he should run for office again, and especially with all of his formed relations u experience, and he was interested at that point feeling again that he could be of service to the country julia

said they were in chicago when the convention met. she tried to encourage him to go downstairs and meet at the convention and show his face knowing it would put him over the top with the vote needed. he absolutely refused to do that and lost the nomination. >> very specific question, because some of the property we are looking at near the an highser bush family property and you are that region of the world. michael reagan wants to know were the grant tied in the bush family? >> no, not at all. the bush family purchased about 280 agers -- acres of the white haven estate in 1903. the only connection is that in the early years of the war with -- for a short time in the war. marvin in cincinnati, you are on. good evening. >> caller: yes. i heard the story, i know you

alluded to the entity that mrs. lincoln and mrs. grant had between each other. that they were originally the first couple that was offered an invitation to the theater night of the assassination. and mrs. grant sort of politely told mr. grant not to accept. and it was the only reason they were not in the box that night. is that true? >> that's true. they were going to philadelphia. nay had a house there. they were going to see the children in philadelphia. that's where they were when they heard the president had been shot. >> was it specific that the asassen made it to the train and the door was locked. >> that's what she talks about about in the memoirs. and that even earlier during that day when she was at lunch, there had been a suspicious group at the other -- . >> when they were striving to the -- driving to the train, a man came riding ahorse along the carriage on the way to the

station, and which is on the -- [inaudible] and looked in the window at grant. and granlt remarkinged he was sinister. he did it twice. they be coincidences. who knows. she was obviously scared to death. >> they believed that he was targeted as part of plot that brought down the lincoln administration. >> we learned that julia grant was much -- very unhappy to leave the white house. and generally grant ease waged the grief by take her on a two-year world tour. what should we know? >> it was his idea. he felt upon leaving the white house he felt like a boy out of school. and he loved traveling and so they embarked on a tour originally supposed to be europe and then ocean sended all the way around the world. she enjoyed every minute of it. mostly because the praise and claim that she saw her husband

receiving. and the shopping that she did as well things she wanted to bring back home with her. he just had a wonderful time on the world tour. >> we're going return to the georgia lee that home and look some of the world tour items they have on display there. >> after his eight years in the white house, the grants came back here to illinois for a little rest and relaxation for a couple of months and decided to go on a world tour. they were gone for over two years. visited close to forty countries on the tour. the grants were so popular at that time. they were like american celebrities. they were treated like royalty. the countries they went to. they received a lot of gifts on the tour. fortunate enough to have some of those still in the home. two here on the man mantle. the red vase were a gift from a

king. they came back here for another couple months and went mexico and cuba. the paintings on each side of the fireplace, the landscape paintings were given to the grants on that trip by the governor of mexico. jose, a popular artist in mexico, did the landscape paintings. this is the dining room, this is with the family would have the meals. julia paib would done a little light entertaining here. it's not anything too elaborate in the home. we have some other guests -- gichts given to the grant on the world tour. the piece give to julia. it's a bronze urn given to her by the citizens of japan. a little vase on the table was given to the grants by the example emperor of japan. back here on the mantle is probably one of the most personal pieces julia probably liked the best. the leaves were give to her by

general grant on the tour. leaves he picked up from the hmoly city. she kept, had it framed and wrote the whole story on there. julia probably had the time of her life on the world tour. she devotes almost a third of the memoir talking about it. she's developed friendship with queen victoria, and very good friendship with the emperor of japan. actually it ends up staying in japan longer than they had expected because they developed such a nice close relationship with him. the emperor of japan came to visit yule ya while she was there. this is a place that the family could come back to. it was always considered home and always welcoming for them. not just the house. she speaks to the memoir of illinois and refers to it as dear georgia lee that. >> we have a short while left.

we are have to talk about the years of the tour. they comb back to the -- come back to the united states and lost lots of money that we talked about with the family and investment in new york city. what is their financial situation? what is the role of the memoir in this? >> well, there are -- when word gets out they lost this money, they are actually some vshes from the war who send grant noun help him. they loan to him. but he's been offered to write some article for century magazine about the war, and then encouraged from that to write his memoirs. something he had never been interested in doing. and samuel, clemons, mark twain publishing company theandz up publishing the for grant. he completes them a few short days before he passedway. he knows they will bring financial comfort to julia.

the first check was $200,000. >> yes. >> imagine in that day. it's around a million. it's a great classic. i recommend it to anyone. >> still readable? >> absolutely. >> even for those not military historian. >> a question on twitter were mark twain and grants the friends. >> yes. they become good friends, and it was through twain's efforts that, as i said, grant began diligently writing the mechanism moisture. -- memoir. thrrm some claimses that he writtens adamant that grant earmark to wait for him to dry so they can have a death mask made. was twain a regular at the white

house. how did mrs. grant relate to him. it was not the white house. it was after words that they developed the closer relationship. apparently -- almost offhand remarking. and so when grant said that century magazine is going to publish his memoir because they were the first to make the offer, twain reminds him that no he, he made the offer earlier. >> i'm going ask me colleagues if we can bring the picture up. the president and the final days. it's a poignant picture. we have seen it wrapped in the blanket on the porch of the cabin in new york working on the memoir. >> hardball pain. throat cancer and painful. how was he able to get it done? >> he became em passioned to do

it. >> sheer determination. she became that way about writing later. he became -- it was so important to secure a comfort for his wife. >> he died shortly after. it seem as if adren lib was keeping him going. >> yes. julia talks about that and grant does to. that was what was keeping him going to be able to finish them. >> i would like to take call. i would like to hear about her memoir. he was the first first lady to write the memoir. i have a copy. let's listen to a call and come back. kathleen in san francisco. hi. >> caller: thank you very much. i had a quick question. julia had four brothers, and i think i remember that during the civil war they fought on the south for the south. is that true? and then did they final reconcile? her brother fred at west point did stay in the union army and

ends up serving on grant's staff. her brother john -- none of them actually joined the confederate army. they certainly did go south and support the confederacy during the war. at one point her brother is captured and put in prison and seeks grant's assistance in getting an prisoner exchange. and grant refuses basically to teach john a lesson. when they're in the white house, the family is always there. >> another question on twitter. with all of the complexity during the civil war, asking were the grants friends with robert e lee or jefferson davis? not friends. granlt respected robert e. lee during the war. he had known him earlier in the mexican war.

but julia becomes friends with davis. >> here is the memoir. and it is available today. this is julia the first first lady to write it. the edition edited by the great john. a great civil war. lincoln historian. what is the story about how these became -- editor of the grant paper. how do the memoir come to be published. why so long between her death and writing. >> she said it's children that encouraged her to begin writing her memoirs of her wonderful life with her husband. she said she started it to satisfy their request. then she realized that recalling all of these wonderful times kind of brought new life to her

and she did look at them. i think she was ambivalent about having them published. initially she thought it was something to record for her children. but then she tried to pursue getting them published several times. and publishers told her they were so private the people were alive at the time with it was too much personal information. another time she was told they would be filled filled with sub stenoscription and looking for a lump sum deal. they remain in the family hands unpublished until john convinced the family they should become publish. >> she lived with a number of years after. was she an active first lady? did she survive other first lady or become a private citizens again?

she ask a lot of entertaining. her son fred an ambassador ins a tree ya. she joins him there. and comes back to the united states. she wrote several articles for different magazine. after the pannish-american war. she writes an article that talks about the federal government and the nation's responsibility to the widow and or fin of the war. >> norma in indiana. your question. >> caller: yes. i was wondering about whether or not there was a relationship between julia and the confederate journal? >> thank you. >> long street was a disassistant cousin of julia. when grant was first courting julia at white haven it was stationed at jefferson barracks

and came out. there's a possibility the record is not quite clear that he served as a grooms member at the wedding. >> how long after president grant's the famous grant's tom build in new york city. >> april 22nd, 1897. how did the country mourn him. >> i believe it was largest funeral ever held in the country. >> larger than lincoln. they brought the body from mount mcgreger where he passed away to new york. and then buried his body in a temporary tom in river side park in new york city. and began the fundraising effort to build the tomb we know today. >> jewel was alive. >> yes. what was her fellow that? >> proud.

widow of -- and pleased to see the nation recognizing her husband. >> as we close here, we look at the long and distinguished military career. a life of many ups and downs for the grants other time. eight years in the white house, a successful world tour, very celebrated. what is the legacy of julia? how does she fit to the first lady we are studying and learning about this year? >> well, they are all women who basically support what their husband is trying to achieve. she did it with certain splen or it at the -- splendor and turned the knob of appearing on a dark period that ended with early reconstruction. and bright end things for the rest of the century. i think our image in the white house, her public popularity, her featuring of the general, the way she did things, the way she was. she was very significant first lady in the way of public.

>> after coming just after the victorian lead. is is she a modern first lady? >> that's difficult to answer. i think they all were opinionated strong women. most all of them. perhaps in a way. she had public interest. yes. i would say so. the next people that would be more so to but i think julia attracted a lot of attention to the family that lived in the white house. >> you're working on a book to establish the thesis. what is your answer to that question? >> i think she would said that her legacy was he was devoted and loving wife, mother to their children, but i think more than that she tried to represent what her husband was trying to achieve peace and reconciliation in the nation.

in her role as first lady, she was able to accomplish that. >> many thanks to the folks a the the immigrant sites around the country who helped with us bringing video and the people of the white house historyial association who are our partner for the series. that concludes our discussion of julia grant. thanks to the two guests being with us tonight. >> thank you. ♪ ♪

next monday night we explore the life of lucy heys. lucy was a advocate who banned liquor at the white house during her husband's administration. watch next monday live at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span and c-span three as well as c-span radio and c-span.org. our website has more about the first ladies. including a special section welcome to the white house. produced by our partner. the white house historical association. it chronicles life in the executive mansion during the ten year of each of the first lady. with the association, we're offering a special edition of the book first ladies of the united states of america. presenting abiography and portrait of each first lady. the book includes thoughts from michelle obama on the role of

flayeds -- first ladies throughout history. it's available for $12.95 plus shipping. at c-span.org/products. glmpleght coming up on c-span2. active host host a forum on issues facing latino community. then the colombia university school of journalism exams media coverage of mass shootings and the perpetrators. wednesday morning, a look at the legal ramifications of companies using social media information in the hiring process. next a discussion on the state laugh teen america. looking at immigration, jobs, education, politics, drugs, the

media, and foreign policy. tavis smiley presents and the william substitute hosts this event. from chicago state university, this is three hours. >> i'm honored ton the moderator for the the conversation called latino nation beyond the numbers. let me ask you to welcome the panel for those in the audience. please welcome the panel we assembled here today for the >> p conversation. [applause] i'm going introduce them one bys one as we get to the del conversation. ighted to be moderatingtwo pane this session. there are two panels at our convening today at chicago state university. the great city of chicago. us he please thank chicago state university for having us here. [applause] chigoreciate the invitation to convene the important[applause] conversation open the this.am hr i've been here before. i'm honored to be back here atoe the great institution once again. there's an afternoon panel, another one of theseed by

conversations. i said a moment ago moderated bf fernando. america radio. fernando and another panel of eight brilliant opinion makers d opinio and thought leader and influence in the latino community. membete it's one of the conversations. if you happen to be watching this now, make sure you take note of your programming. schedule. make sure you catch the other dd thave tderating by fernando as well. i'm slighted to have the -- -- l delighted to have the opportunity to sit among the influence tow talk about thertao issue important to all americans and particularly uniquely to the latino community. i said to my friend i said many times, congressman, i that i sometimes feel from my hispanic brothers and sisters, because rest nay get access to mainstream media. nversathey get boxed in to having one conversation about you know what immigration reform.

and given what is happening inwn washington right now, or not happening as it were, talked the today about immigration reform. there are so many issues that matter to the fellow citizense i that so often we don't get thewd better. i mean that sinner sincerely.re get the own opinion that matter to the rest of us. education, and unemployment and underemployment and housing andi crime and health care and even foreign policy.i ho i hope that between these twos panels here at chicago state university, which make up latino nation beyond the numbers against the title, nation beyond the numbers we request get to maaningful dial and richthat discourse about the ttthings ths matter to us as americans and get a unique perspective on whas is happening inside this community. this is the new america.

it sounds weird to say the new america. they were here before we got here. o come they were , what these numbers mean for the future of this great nation. without any further ado, let's get right to the conversation, latino nation -- beyond the numbers. i want to start with my friend thomas saenz. had this have conversation a number of times. i think the place to start today, while we will get to immigration reform, it is not immigration. it is causing all of us to be a bit fearful. .hese new unemployment numbers the numbers that we saw just recently that came out from the u.s. government. everybody is in trouble. i don't care if you are black, red, brown, white, yellow. everybody seems to be in trouble in this economy, but it

has had a particular impact on the latino community. 2/3 of the wealth in this community was lost due to this so-called great recession. ormight be at the precipice already in a double dip recession. the wealth of your community has already been lost, god knows what's going to happen in the coming weeks and months if this recession does not receive -- received -- recede. give me some sense of what the impact has been on the latino community. >> i think the numbers you have given illustrate the devastating impact of the economic downturn, and it's particularly going to hit communities like the latino commit -- community. the wealth development is not as mature as it is in the white community, for example. to bounce back from employment challenges is not as deep because of some of the

long-standing issues we will talk about today and including the continuing education gap for the latino and african american communities, which is a problem not just for those communities but the entire nation. efforts to prevent discrimination do not receive the effort and attention they should receive. when you have an economic downturn, a lot of folks return to bad patterns. some of those include making positions -- decisions based on inappropriate bases. that is often the basis of language, accident, presumed immigration status, race, or any of the other inappropriate bases. we have to make sure we have laws in place and being vigorously enforced that ensure that even in the worst of times we are still making certain that all communities have the opportunity to bounce back and to continue to build. that's what our entire nation

depends upon. particularly given the growth and significance of the latino community to the future economy. we've got to make sure we are in a position to ensure that problems experienced in the great recession don't become problems that exist over the course of the next century because they have multigenerational impact, multiple impacts on educational futures, opportunities to obtain the skills and experiences to do well in the workplaces. they have long-term impacts on asset building. other generators of economic development and opportunity for everyone. >> how would you juxtapose then the notion that in the last presidential election cycle, this community, the latino community am a flexed its muscle like we have never seen before? the political muscle is growing, yet this economic downturn is sucking the lifeblood out of many families. >> i think you reconcile it by recognizing that as important as

all of the information -- attention that came out of the pundits analysis of that anction, really, it was election about many other issues. in latino community said unprecedented numbers we are going to be interested, engaged on all sorts of issues, starting with economic policy, starting with workforce development him a starting with illuminating the -- darting with workforce development, starting with in the mandating the issues -- starting with workforce development, starting with eliminating the discrimination we have seen. immigrantact on community, the entire latino community. so much of stereotyping leads into how people make decisions, everyday decisions about -- leads into how people make into how -- bleeds people make decisions, everyday decisions. >> what is your sense --

i want to follow-up on this. we will get into more of this as the conversation can print -- as the conversation proceeds. --t is your sense of these has there been research done on the opportunities and i certain latino's -- opportunities denied certain latino's based upon their looks their accent, their appearance? there was a study in my own community, the african-american community, that your very name decides whether or not you get an opportunity or not with a particular job. if on the resume, they see shiny shaniqua williams, that could work against you. it makes a difference what you name your children. there are two sides to the question. one is the cultural question.

a cultural question about what that means these of the assimilation -- means the of -- -- means of the civvies means vis a vis assimilation. kind of information is there to suggest that kind of stigmatization as to destabilization? >> anecdotally, and you do see smaller studies that demonstrate that these have been issues. there are issues that our current set of laws, that it does not grapple well with any of these issues, whether it is about a name on a resume, language, accident, assumptions about immigration status or background -- accent, assumptions about immigration status or background. it's clear that we need to have laws that are modernized to address what we see today. as the immigration debate has moved forward and too many ways

resulted in demonization, you don't yet know the immediate and longer-term impact of some of that demonization of the entire latino community. we have seen it not just in arizona but in five other states where there has been official legislative action. that's going to have economic impact. whether that is fully documented by studies yet or not is something that we as we go about policymaking need to ensure that we are adjusting our laws and our practices to address those new and developing concerns. any kind of discrimination in the employment force has a significant impact beyond just theg -- beyond just affected individuals. it is a drag on our economy. we see to make sure, as these developments throughout the country, that we are adjusting our laws, policies, practices to ensure that we are

addressing the concerns of today. that includes both the context we are talking about in , but alson debates the great recession. the decisions that are being made sometimes in the context where someone assumes, perhaps that the state of the economy means they can get away with things they could not get away with five or year -- 510 years -- with five years ago or 10 years ago. now you can get away with not just discrimination at the hiring point, but that -- but discrimination in the commotion point, discrimination in the -- folks are afraid of losing their job, the benefits that come with that job, if those benefits come. our too many employers, not -- there are too many employers, not all of them. too many of them conclude that the economic situation means they can get away with violations they would other not -- they would otherwise not take

a chance in engaging in. >> i am noodling which way i want to go. you give me so many wonderful segues. i'm going to lean to my left and go to hector barreto. hector was, at one point, the administrator for the small business administration with the latino coalition. i have a number of things i want to come to you on, specifically about his miss. -- about business. recession on this small business in the latino community. small business drives america. inside the latino community, small business, mom and pop shops, these other opportunities for entrepreneurship drives the economic engine of your community. talk to me about this -- the impact of this recession on small business. >> it has been significant.

there are some people who will say that, when times are going well, there are pockets of the latino community in a recession. when we are in a recession, there are pockets of the latino community in a depression. there's an incredible amount of opportunity in the future come especially with small business. when i was at sba, the fastest growing segment of small business in united states was hispanic-owned business, and i believe it still is. that represents about 3 million companies in the united states. those companies are generating about $500 billion in revenue. those numbers could double every five years according to demographers, if they have the right environment. a lot of those businesses do not feel they have the right environment. latino business needs the same thing that any business needs. they need capital. very difficult to access capital right now. they need capacity. they need to know the things

they don't know, counseling, technical assistance. they need contracts. not only from the federal government, which is very important, but also from the private sector. and they also have to control their costs. there are a lot of latino businesses in this state of analysis and paralysis. a thought things would be better by now. when we are talking about jobs, small businesses in america generate 2/3 of the net new jobs in our economy. our economy will not come back unless small businesses are thriving. they are the engine of america. a lot of those small businesses are not thriving right now. those 3 million hispanic businesses employ millions of latino. -- latinos. >> er in chicago, the home of president barack obama -- we are in chicago, the home of presiden barack obama. if he were here -- president barack obama. if he were here, one of the things his administration did

was -- that money was supposed to trickle down to small businesses to help them through this difficult economic time in the nation. there was a report that came out, i guess a year or so ago, out of the ohio state university, that talk specifically about the fact that in the african-american and -- african-american community, that money had not trickled down to small business. i wonder if you have similar information about whether or not it trickle down to latino american business. >> a lot of that money did not go to small business or infrastructure or opportunities for those small businesses to get more capital. a lot of times, small businesses feel they can take their a lot of -- take care of a lot of these issues themselves if they have a more friendly environment. there are a lot of issues that affect all small businesses. the amount of taxes they are paying. that's important. a lot of times, small businesses

play a cash pay a harder -- pay taxes.r percentage of healthcare costs are really important to small businesses. thosebusiness is one of only communities that has trouble accessing affordable healthcare, quality healthcare, etc. if you work for a corporation, government, or union, a lot of times those things are taken care of. more regulation than ever before. a lot of times, small business cannot deal with it. the business can put resources toward that -- big business can put resources toward that. there's a lot of issues that affect them besides a stimulus program. sometimes, small businesses feel their government does not really understand what they do every day. they do not feel like they have a strong advocate or partner. sometimes, they feel on the defensive by their own government. and i'm not talking about just federal government. state government, local

government, etc. government, luis gutierrez, government,-- >> luis gutierrez, congressman from illinois. we will get to immigration because they cannot be avoided, nor should it be. dealing with the economy and the fact that so many small businesses feel like government is in the way, that increasing regulation, etc., is making it more difficult for them to advance their businesses and their entrepreneurial spirit and genius tom a what say you about -- and genius, what say you about his indictment that many people feel that government is still in the way? >> i feel that government -- i think many people feel that government can do more to stimulate job opportunities and job growth in our community. when i look at jobs, i also want the american public to know that when you think of latinos, the impact is not going to be the same throughout the latino community.

want everybody to know that most latinos in the united states are citizens of the united states and here legally. some of us have been here for generations, more than generations, for centuries. others may have arrived five years ago, 10 years ago. but we are a community of families. as i look at small businesses and i look at the latino community and i look at whether you are a recent immigrant or a product of immigrants, i know how important that entrepreneurial spirit is in our community. and i really see it in the recently arrived immigrants. it seems to me the newer you are latino to america and the more recent lee arrived -- more recently arrived you are, the more entrepreneurial you are. we need to be a more welcoming nation because that

entrepreneurial spirit creates jobs, creates wealth, creates an economy in which people have purchasing power. i want government to be there. there is one really sad fact. and that is that it is great to see that osha and the federal through its practices is decreasing the number of people that get hurt when they go to work. it is good. people should go to work, put in a good days work for a fair 's work for ad day fair salary. more latinos die every day working somewhere. latinos tend to get hurt more than -- it is an increase. -- workforce is safer from

is safer. from the perspective of latinos, it is not safer. i agree that we should look at how special communities that have demonstrated -- come to chicago. everybody thinks michigan avenue. to go and shop. what is the avenue that creates the second-largest stream of tax dollars to the city of chicago? it is 26th street in little village, in the mexican immigrant community. that's the community that is creating jobs. i look at inner cities like chicago and others. i think we should motivate. part of economic development -- and i think this was part of your question, your first premise of losing wealth -- is owning homes. if you're really going to reestablish neighborhoods and fortify neighborhoods, people

have to have the ability. there is a lot of wealth in our community. part of that wealth, even in spite of the depression -- billions of dollars continue to go back to moms and dads, brothers and sisters, family members that they care so much about. of neighbor id want, the kind of neighbor that works really hard, maybe does not have such a good job,, -- good job, it still takes some of that money and sends it so that others will do better. it is that entrepreneurial spirit that i don't think we've given enough thought to how to promote it. >> i want to start with this notion of these two hispanics per day who die in the workplace. that is not just a shame. it is a disgrace that that

happens in this country on a daily basis. no other community would accept that. , a couple in chicago of years ago, actually in joliet. i spent a couple of days filming conversations with a group called the warehouse workers for justice. i know you are familiar with them. what they really do is to document and to fight for the protection of day laborers and others, workers who are taken advantage of by major american .ompanies, by multinationals they will hire them on a part- time basis for months and years on end. they keep them in a certain category and classification so they don't have to kick in their healthcare benefits. the atrocities -- women who are molested and raped

by their bosses. this and fight against it every day. i'm trying to find the right word. it is devastating to my spirit to see this happens on a regular basis. i don't think that, in this conversation about immigration or anything else relevant to the community, people understand the ways in which these workers are maltreated, often to the point of death. about the a bit more ways that these workers are exploited, maltreated, and, at times, killed on the job. >> the fact is that it's happening. .he statistics bear it out they don't get the training that they should get. they don't understand. ory are not trained

inspired to dial 911 and call to protect their rights. i think there needs to be an expansion of how they are able to organize themselves collectively for their own defense. in some communities, it is different. i figured all that out -- >> i tried to figure all that out trying to staff this panel. >> depending on where you are at, if you are in a state like illinois, you will probably do better because you will have a governor or a mayor and a political system that has a history of being there on your side. if you are in mississippi, and i know people are come a latinos in mississippi? yeah. some of the largest growth of latinos in the united states is in the south. ofent 45 minutes outside

orlando and there were 500 migrant workers. dominicans. when they said mexico, the place started -- those are the migrant workers. they said to me can you help us with the police? i just want to be able to come and shop. because theyaid don't feel i have a recourse to demand payment for my work. , look, let's make sure --t these 11 million people they are important to the community of people. the undocumented are important, too. as they gain rights, so do the

salary, wages, benefits of everyone else. now you have employers who cannot pick and choose one against the other. stop picking winners and losers. >> before i move on. since you have loosed -- use this term already -- since you have used this term already. recently, the associated press made news with their announcement they are no longer going to use the term illegal alien, illegal immigrant. they are not going to use that terminology in stories that are distributed by the associated press. they will instead use the term undocumented worker. i am heartened by that. i have been asked about this. i have said a number of times that activities are illegal, actions are illegal, people are not illegal.

anything human is not alien to me. i've never quite understood that in the first place. i was on fox news the other day , voting this-- conversation. my friend sean hannity could not wait to get antonio and me into a debate about the politics of the terminology. before we go further, your thoughts on the ap's decision, on the terminology, that words do matter, and the impact of this change potentially on this conversation. >> words matter. of the late-t 1960's, early-1970's. in the african community, latino community began to say, you know what? we are going to define who we are and what terminology is used