>> u.s. ambassador to libya nominee, deborah kay jones testified before a senate

confirmation hearing. she would replace christy veins who was kill in an attack in benghazi last year. the house oversight committee will investigate those attacks. james knight, president obama's pick for the ambassador to chad, also testified at this one-hour senate foreign relations committee hearing. >> good morning. this hearing over the senate foreign relations committee welcome order. today we're pleased to welcome two nominees as ambassador to libya and chad two difficult and important assignments. the maghreb and sahel regions are of significance and i look forward to hearing your views on these critical and enter linked regions. we can never forget ambassador christy sense and the three other american public servants, tyrone wood, sean smith, and glen dougherty, would lost their

lives, and we remember ann smedinghoff's who death in afghanistan reminded us the dangers that every diplomat serving abroad faces. the attacks on -- benghazi -- reach outside the wire and keep our people safe and muir and i'm committed to doing all we can to ensure the kindness of this part in providing the tools our embassies need to operate as effectively and safely as possible around the world. i look forward to hearing the views of both of our nominees on balancing embassy security and the need to reach odd of that wire. that said, we cannot let the events in benghazi overshadow the slow but possess tv progress libya continues to make in fulfilling the promise of the resolution. there's no doubt process in libya is continuing, but the elections last summer to form

the general national congress. we have seen the emergence of a civil society engaged in how to move the country forward, and there's in doubt that the united states enjoys a certain level of possible alert in libya we saw in the aftermath of ambassador stevens' death when thousands took to the street against the extremists and in support of the united states. a critical question is how to harness that good will to help the libyan people shape a safe and inclusive democracy with a healthy relationship with the united states. the security situation remains precarious. a recent car bomb in tripoli and kitnappings are a challenge. the central government is unable to assert its control outside of tripoli.

border security is an issue of critical concern as drugs and arm trafficking threaten to destabilize the region. these issues affect not only libya but the entire region. we have already seen our arms from libya haved a ed to existing conflicts. old smuggling routes and now trafficking paths crisscross the region. this hearing will allow us to cross those artificial barriers, take the 30,000-foot view, and hopefully engage in a dialogue about both libya and chad in a regional context. chad is ripe with challenges. among the poorest countries, the highest maternal mortality rate in the world, life expectancy of 50. fourth in the motor recent

failed states index. and in december the united nations consolidated said chad was on out a steady path to recovery and stabilization. hope that's the case. an increasingly strategic region and chad is an important diplomatic posting with the united states. so with that background i welcome or nominees, the honorable deborah kay jones, nominated to be ambassador to libya, and who well be introduced by senator udall of mex, and james knight, previously a chief of mission and held a number of posts, mostly in africa, in his over two decades with the foreign service. i look forward to the testimony of the nominees. with that, let me turn to senator corker with his opening statement and then senator udall and then hear from the nominees. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i too welcome our nominees and

their family and senator udall, and i thank you for having this hearing in full committee. you're roles are important and it's taking place in a full committee hearing. i just traveled not three months ago or so through northern africa, and to see what is happening with the nodes, if you will, of al qaeda that have splintered off and the effect it's going to have an north africa and the role it's going to play as it related to world stability. certainly speaks of the importance of your two roles. in chad we have a country that is actually helping and working outside of its boundaries to help us with some of these issues, but very weak in internally and has problems within the country. and libya, we have a situation, as we talked about yesterday, in the office, a country that almost doesn't have a government, and you can feel it when you're there on the ground

and very much militia controlled throughout the country, and many changes recently that could have a negative effect on the country. and so we have a special responsibility there because of the role that we play in that country. so i'll support the mission of both of you. i thank you for coming today. i look forward to your testimony. and look forward to hopefully very strong and outstanding service in the region. it's very important to our country. so thank you both for being here. >> senator udall. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and thank you senator corker and members of the commitee. and i very much appreciate the opportunity to introduce ambassador deborah jones, ambassador jones has served with great distinction over a long career in the u.s. state department. she also is a fellow new mexican. and we are proud of her applicationments. her family is --

accomplishments. her family has lived in both new mexico and arizona since her grandparents moved from mexico. she has lived in santa fe new mexico since 1991. new mexico is proud to add her to the long list of distinguished ambassadors who have called new mexico home. ambassador jones is dedicated her life to public service. and she has tried to instill those same values in her children. her daughter, is bell, worked as an intern any office and i believe she is here today with us. in 19 -- >> how did she do? >> of course, ambassador jones will introduce the rest of her family but i thought i should give special recognition there to isabelle. in 1982, ambassador debra jones began her career as vice council of the u.s. embassy buenos air regs argentina. and she soon began to develop

her expertise in the middle east. she is no stranger to tough assignments inch 18990 she was the section chief in damp mass, and syria, the desk officer for the kingdom of jordan from 1995 through 1997. she also was director of the office of the arabian peninsula affairs, and iran bureau of near eastern affairs, and served with dinks in her critical -- dinks in her critical mission of heave consecutive -- slow speaks air back, french, and an ms in national security strategy from the national war college and a b.a. in history from brig a ham young university. following her service as ambassador in kuwait she was work as a senior advised visor for international affairs at the u.s. naval war college and a

scholar in residence at the middle east institute. ambassador jones will be ready from day one to tack the numerous challenges facing libya. the libyan people are still struggling to remake their country after years of despotic leader shot. the libyan government has been -under strain to rein in militias. these drowns have attempted to use coercion and intimidation to exact legislative changes such as the recently passed political isolation law. and a terror threat still exists today in libya. a threat which has resulted on attacks on civilians and government officials and embassies, including in benghazi. ambassador jones will be our first ambassador since the tragic events at benghazi. it's important to remember the work of christy veins -- kris stevens and personnel who died.

ambassador stevens and his staff belonged strongly that the recall value of freedom would prevail. ambassador jones if confirmed will be taking on the important foreign policy task of representing the united states in libya. she will be continuing the important diplomatic work begun by ambassador stevens. i have every confidence she is up to the task to move us forward in libya, and in north africa, which has emerged as a region of great importance to our country. and i am thankful for the time she has already spent with me discussing these vital issues. a peaceful and democratic electricways important for regional stability, it is important for the interests of the united states, and it is no secret that the gadhafi regime created lasting damage in libya. or that the militant groups that have attempted to take advantage of a government and country that is still in transition.

ambassador jones will need to work with the libyan government to enhance security and the rule of law. and she will have the important work of balancing access with security at our embassies and consulates through -- i know she is going to do that well, and through our discussions i know she is mineful of this important job. she has a keen understanding of the responsibility being given to her by the president if confirmed. mr. chairman, thank you again for the opportunity to introduce ambassador jones. the president has wisely chosen an individual of great experience, expertise, and commitment, and i look forward to supporting such a well-qualified candidate. thank you again. >> thank you, senator udall. thank you for all those insights. >> i will excuse myself here. i'm sure that she will do very well without me. >> thank you very much. >> with that, we're happy

continue vitam boors jones first to give her testimony. your full statement both for ambassadors jobs and night will be included in the report without objection. and we ask you to summarize it for the purposes of being able to have a discussion, and we invite you if you wish to introduce any of your family memberses that may be here with you. we recognize that service abroad on behalf of the country also is a sacrifice of family, and we appreciate their willingness to engage in that as well. ambassador jones. >> thank you, senator. mr. chairman, ranking member corker, who just walk out, members of the committee, i'm grateful and thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today and a special thank you to the honorable senator from my home state of new mexico, senator tom udall, for introduce me to this venable commitee. i'm grateful to the president and secretary for their confidence and trust in nominating me to serve as ambassador to libya, and i would like to thank my family for their support and understanding and especially my lovely

daughters, anna, and isabella olson who are with me today. anna and isy have been great troopers and sports as they accompanied their parents overseas or otherwise accepted the sacrifices that our commitment to serve has meant for. the they've also kept us very honest and they're great patriots. two years on the euphoria that accompanied the uprising of the libyan people and the fall of colonel gadhafi and his dictate you'reship has been replaced with the sober wreck next of the challenges facing libyas leaders and it people. as we witnessed throughout the region, democratic transitions are difficult, political progress is organic, not linear. upriceings can be fueled that nations are the brick and mortar of sometimes painful economy mice and reconciliation through

the difficult spade work of political dialogue. libya does envoy several advantages compared to other arab states or nations like chad who have been affected by political transition, including a relatively small population and significant oil wealth. however, we should never underestimate the effects that more than four decades of colonel gadhafi's rule had on society. he deliberately dismantle tetted the institutions, block the civil organizations and quashed any independent thought or initiative. he relied on a network of corruption that effectively created a vacuum from which libya's brave new leaders must build democratic institutions. control over mill lit ya, clearly hijacked by those whose purposes have nothing to do with the will being of the libyan people, and assure all libyans are represented and respect ped in the new government while disexpensing with the cupry's wealth fairly and transparently. the good news is there are

courageous and determined libyans, including many who have returned to rebuild their nation and have achieved some noticeablement steps. the july elections for the national -- general national counsel which were successful, and elevated technocrats over idea logs and libya's oil production, which is important to the stability of world oil prices which has reached preconflict level, relying largely on theft of libyan nationals. the inherent optimism of libyan patriots to fuel these when we saw libyans peacefully recognize the anniversary of their revolution, having said that, very serious challenges remain first and foremost the need for libya's central governing authority to strengthen it

capacity to aassert security throughout the country and along its vast borders. flows of loose weapons throughout the broader region must be staunched. the disarming, demoralizing and integration of the revolutionary brigades is now essential for establishing a national security apparatus with clear lines of command and control, which ill in turn enable the defeat of volatile and deadly rogue militias and prevent a reriot of the tragedy in benghazi when our fine public senior vanities were killed. the perpetrators must be brought to justice and i will work closely with the libyan government to see that justice is realized. libya must also consolidate the fledgling democratic foundations, ultimately lasting security and domestic civility will emerge from an inclusive constitutional process at that

delineates clear lines of authority, offers protection to all libyans, and a reformed judicial system capable of garnering public confidence and a national strategy to deal with past gadhafi era abuses abuses d current criminality. the strategic patience that accompanies institution billing must also accommodate the-under gent requirements to fill a security vacuum that otherwise will be exploded by invasesive elements, including al qaeda. in short, libya's national garden re-requires careful tenning during this fragile period. we have proposed a modest but important package of assistance to libya and it's fair for the american people to ask why, at a time of our moan fiscal restraint and given libya's wealth, bit remains in our strong national interest to fund a limited number of activities

of immediate concern to libyan security and larger regional security and lay the proper foundation for libya's transition to a democratic state. libya's lead leaders assert they are willing to pay their own way and use petroleumle -- and as libya increases capacity and gains experience with steps needed to procure and contract the need for u.s. and other external funding will drop away. implementing these programs now, however, gives us the best opportunity to support and strengthen a libyan government that is tragic but can be a long -- that is fragile, but among these u.s. funded activities are programmed aimed at preventing weapons proliferation, provides advise on transitional governance issues, such as border security, rule of law, human rights, and promoting a vibrant civil society. this seed money will pay substantial dividends if it's

wisely huded and it's in our national interests, both strategic and ideological, as well as libya's to see it fulfill it potential as a stable and prosperous democracy with a fully developed and active civil society, and the full integration and participation of all elements of libyan society in geographic areas with respect to human rights and international norms. historic rivalries between traditional centers of culture and governance can produce a healthy competitive, yet conjoined national dynamism. the development of this full national capacity and sovereignty will enhance our own security and economic well-being through regional security cooperation, the steady production of hydrocarbons essential to global economic growth and trade,. a successful democratic transition in libya challenges not withstanding, and they're

significant, can be an engine for growth supporting the transitions taking place in neighboring tunisia and egypt there does remain an extraordinary res sir voice for good will of the united states in libya. given our support of the toppling of gad good and our engagement following the restoration of dip -- diplomatic relations. if have been moved good touched by i'ms i haven't received from private libyan citizens after the announcement of my nomination, addressing their deep sorrow over the attack on ambassador stevens and our fallen colleagues, and assuring me of their desire to cooperate with a new united states ambassador. i am well aware of the unique challenges i will face in the current environment. and if confirmed i am committed to working closely with this congress in carrying on the excellent work in forging strong ties between our governments and people, students and business communities, and women and

minorities. leveraging our instruments of national power and all the connections connections and tools at my disposal in coordination with our allies and like issue minded powers who share our interest in a stable and prosperous libya. our engagement in libya includes historic cooperation during world war ii and the colored cold war and developing libya's oil and gas sector to. last but not least i am deeply conscious of the responsibility i would have has chief of mission for the safety and security of the medical 4,000 americans residing in libya and for that of those individuals attached to our mission there as we strive to balance safety considerations with a deep desire tone gage and do the work of the american people as expressed by members of this congress and this admission. and in this regard i would like to stress my deep gratitude to my colleagues in diplomatic security, and to our united states marine corps, other armed

forces members and other u.s. agency colleagues whose heroic efforts make it possible for us to continue our daily work there honorable members of this committee. it has been my privilege and great honor to have spent 31 years in the service of my country, working with nine administrations to champion america's interests and expand the reach of freedom do you the conduct of diplomacy with nations at war and peace, in some poverty, and others enjoying great wealth. should you choose to confirm me it will be my honor and sworn duty to lead our mission in libya as we meet the challengess of consolidateing the foundation of a strong libya. thank you, and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you. ambassador knight. >> thank you, senator. mr. chairman, ranking member

corker and members of the committee. i am deeply honored to appear today as the president's nominee to the be next ambassador of the united states of america to the republic of chad. i thank president obama and secretary carriy for the trust they have the sewn. if confirmed i will work with you all to best represent the issues and values of the american people to the government and people of chad. at a moment when chad is becoming a stronger partner for the it's and its allies in a critical region. i am pleased that my wife has join me today. amelia has been my closest partner and strongest supporter throughout my foreign service career. mr. chairman, member office the committee, chad is a vast country, positioned at one of the most important crossroads of africa. for many centuries the people and cultures of the middle east have shared chad's environment. these differing traditions have given chad a unique culture but

wasn't which faces great turbulence since its independence in 1960. chad has been regularly playing -- plagued by civil war. and today chad is emerging from this legacy of internal turmoil and regional conflict. supported chad's internal stability and the stability of the region as a whole. chad now plays a positive knoll the region, cribbing -- d crashg to case-peaking efforts and evidences to halt extremism, participating in and sustaining heavy casualties in the enter national military intervention in mali. chad remains to keep troops there as a key member of the unitees nations peacekeeping operation in addition chad's leadership in the central african states think community of saharans states advances the

hope we all share for the future of a more prosperous and stable sahel and central africa. however, ongoing unstable and conduct in bordering countries as we of seeing in the central african republic, affects the progress of chad. the chadian president has led regional negotiations to achieve a broad-bassed and transparent government in the central african republic, and chad has contributed troops to the been peace keeping mission there chad currently hosts some 375,000 refugees from s sudan, and knew arrivals continue to cross the border. the government of chad maintains a cooperative relationship with the human tearan community. thereby ensuring life-saving assistant is provided to affected populations. chad is also subject to the

growing regional threat of trafficking, where by increasingly armed poachers threaten the elephant population. this also impacts the economic livelihoods of local communities and security and the rule of law. in addition to regional threats, chad faces great domestic challenges. international investment in chad is severely constrained by gee graph cal isolation, lack of appropriately skilled workers, high import duties and widespread corruption inch -- the government of chad must improve its management of petroleum resourced. the oil resears are in decline, adding urgency to overcome underdevelopment. while the government of chad has expressed commitment to -- people of chad suffer from great poverty, ill literacy, disease, and high infant mortality. the history of authoritarian

government, punch waited we self war, complicate the building of chad's capacity for good governorrance and the fulfillment of chad's goals. i work elsewhere to address these kind of issues for many years in iraq i have had responsibility for refugees, development assistance and police reform. the name i successly oversaw the compact which addressed challenges similar to those confronting chad today in angola i helped -- before entering the foreign service i was in an area similar to chad. i look forward to energetic addressing the strategic goals of the united states in a wider and fuller partnership with the government and people of chad in particular, if confirmed i will support the government of chad's

efforts to counter the growing threats to regional security and maintain its regional engagements. if confirmed i will encourage and support the government of chad's pursuit of democratic reform, its capacity and will to implement better governance and respect for human rights. i will support and assist the government of chad and the international community through sound use of humanitarian assistance and improved capacity in the area of disaster management. if confirmed my highest priority as the ambassador of the united states will be to ensure the safety and welfare of all americans in chad and the advancement of u.s. interests. mr. chairman, members of the committee, please accept my thanks for this opportunity to appear before you today. i look forward to your questions. >> well, thank you both for your testimony and let me begin with ambassador jones. it seems that today the defense minister of libya apparently announced his resignation this morning, and the situation in libya appears to have hit a

challenging point. over the weekend government intimidate the parliament into passing a political isolation law to ban anyone who served in gadhafi's government, including many of the professional technocrats in libya that will be needed to succeed in the future. it sets a dangerous precedent as these militias continue to lay siege to libyan ministers. what do the event office the last few days portend for libya's future and how do we secure democracy if its being held host's hostage of averaged militias and what impact of the political isolation law will have on libya's democratic development? >> senator, you're reading my mind this morning as i listened to the news over the last self days. definitely a challenge. i believe, again, if confirmed, one of the reasons i believe weed in to get an ambassador out there is to provide the support

to the government that will help it to enhance its control over these militias. the libyan people deserve far better than this. they struggled bravely to throw off 40 years of intimidation, not to -- i don't believe in exchange for another government of intimidation or intimidation by armed groups or militias. so, again, working on the three you have addressed in your comment, the three stools of the -- three legs of the stool critical to lib use development which i security, strengthening libya's security, through supporting its government and training of the professional military and security regime which we have started to do in many ways. disarming the militias, of course. but also engaging with them on governance and getting them to work with them, to look at the impact of these kinds of laws, this isolation law and the impact that would have on their

unity as a government and civil society, which is a critical part of libya. the role that civil society has played, the role of women has been significant, and the libyan people themselves have to make their voices heard, and we will help them with that in ensuring that we don't go back to a situation of intimidation. but, again, one of the reason is feel an urgency to get on the ground and have an ambassador there who can actually guide our efforts on this side of the ocean, and as well as guiding and helping the libyans to achieve some of the objectives they want to strengthen the security and disarm the militias. >> you mentioned civil society as part of the equation. how do you intend in the security environment you'll be in, to reach out to civil society inside of libya as part of fostering a greater, more pluralistic participation by society. >> i have to look at the balance every single day of this. an ambassador doesn't wake up

without considering security. that just goes part and parcel with the job. and when i was the ambassador in kuwait, even though it's a very different situation, i didn't wake up one morning without thinking, what possibly could happen to us that day? and in fact, in kuwait, of owl places, that was the place where i cancelled the marine ball the day of the ball. you have to know what that means in kuwait because the invasion of iraq was the -- the liberation of kuwait was the largest marine deployment since world war 2. so it's a big event for us there. but a combination of factors with intelligence and other anomalies led know cancel the ball and wake up to rous the amir's brought who was the head of their security, who protected the embassy, and asked him to swap out all of his guards. i take this very seriously. our security. that said, that said, i think

there are a number of ways we can connect. this situation is changing all the time. it's very unstable. we all know that. it's something we look at every day. we are working close -- i think we have a package both for travel that allows to us get out, not as much as we might like, but there are also fortunately other wives connecting with people, whether it's through media, skype, what's up, through all cames of connections within libya to have us be able to talk even while we might not be as physically present the way we might like in other environments. again, until i get out on the ground, and see what that is, first thing do at every mission -- and i have done in the past -- is to do a terrain walk with my security officer. i did it in kuwait. i did it in istanbul. when i was principle officer i expect to do that in triply as well. i'll get out and walk the walk, see what we can do talk about how we can extend, talk about meeting anymore other locations.

people can travel out, too. we can take advantage of trips outside of libya. take advantage of other locations inside. i'm just going to have to be creative and we'll look at that. >> to both of you, chad and libya share a pourous border and a rough neighborhood by any definition. what do you see as key regional challenges and how could chiefs of mission such as yourselves work together to improve the u.s. ability to respond and help shape development in the region? >> thank you, mr. chairman. it's clear that ambassador jones speaks to the shared threats in the area in which we'll both be working if confirmed. the importance of this of coordination is absolutely key because as you know there has been a historic division in the state department between the maghreb in the north of africa and the rest. that is now being addressed specific live by the creation of

a sahel working group within the -- the sect level in the state department. i think that's a good first step. it's clear we have to maintain personal communication and personal coordination of our efforts to address the threats as they marriage along our shared border, and it's also important that to recognize that it's not simply along the libyan-chadian border but there's a regional dimension which extends from senegal to the other side of sudan. if confirmed i look forward to working with all my colleagues in this effort to address the continuing -- continually worrisome threats of terrorism in the area. >> senator, i would also second everything that jim has said, and i would also say that the problem has gone even beyond sahel. we know that the flow of weapons from libya is reaching as far as syria and other places of

interest, in a very challenging security environment, and i think more than ever we recognize that working with these countries is not a bilateral issue. a it's global issue, and i intend to not only draw on my colleagues around all of our resources at state, defense department, but also with other countries, who have assets and interests in the region, who are like-mined, who can support our effort to disarm, which we have been working on with the libbans, to dismantle man pad, to locate and destroy chemical weapons stores and a lot of the materiale and the things left over from gadhafi's collection of weapons over the years, ordnance and other things and also the results of their recent of their own civil war, their own uprightings there. >> senator corker. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and thank you both for your testimony, and again, for the families, for being here, and i

guess ambassador jones, i would ask the first question is, what have you done to cause people to send you to libya? i know that we talked about that yesterday in the office. my serious question is, we talked about the safety issue and we traveled through there in october right after the unfortunate events in benghazi. you stated the importance of security and just for the record, if you would just one more time emphasize that, i would appreciate it. >> security in libya, how -- >> for your personnel. >> absolutely, sir. and let me say that i think our daughters are asking what they did to us to have their dad as an islam ma bad islamabad and i'm going to tripoli but it's to pay for their college. but what i would say, though, on security, and again, this is something that -- well, as we

know, it's deadly serious for us. how do we manage security in the building and without. and i would like to say that over the course of my career, and even though i know my first assignment no one mentions because it sounds curby, it happened to also be during the faulkans war and after our embase in tripoli had been -- our embassy in tehran had been overrun, which changed the nature of diplomatic practice and made people worry if we weren't safe anymore, you know, under vienna convention in our embassies, how are we going to make this work? i have throughout my career, and certainly later years and as ambassador and principal officer, always had a direct connection and picked up the phone with washington, worked very closely with security, and with ds and other agencies at post who have access to intelligence and other assets. it is the role of the ambassador. the ambassador is the principal security over at post and it is

the ambassador who has to decide whether to allow people to travel here or there, whether to ask for additional assets, whether to insist on additional assets and if you don't get the answers you need you pick up in phone and speak to the people who are responsible for that. and that's what i intend to do. that's what i've always done. there are many ways to approach that. and to continue to press that. we do know that in the past, -- >> that's good. i got it. thank you. the -- we were involved in libya and certainly have a responsibility there because of that involvement but it would appear to me, and i think -- i'd love to hear your comments -- we underestimated the challenges there, and i've met with government officials there, and it's really not a government. when you look at the responsibilities that they have, you look at the militia

throughout the country, it's almost remarkable the country is functioning. do you think we have underestimated the challenges there? >> senator, until i get out on the ground -- if there's one thing i've learned -- >> based on the briefings you have had. >> i don't know that we underestimated. i think there has been frustration. i certainly know we have had a setback in these last eight, nine months, without having an ambassador on the ground. it's set us back in our efforts to support the government there. beyond that, could i say, did we underestimate? i think again progress after these kinds of transitions, it is unpredictable, it is ore againic, it is not linear, knock for yaic -- not formulaic and i know if we're not make, the we

will lose out. we have never won a bat well haven't shown up -- a battle we haven't shown up for. >> i know you want to get on the ground and your briefings a few weeks ago regarding libya, today would be very different, i think. but based on what you know today, what is it -- typically when an ambassador comes in at the beginning, where you lay the groundwork for what you're going to do over the first six months you're there, what are your goals? >> obviously i think principle goal is to address the security vacuum to address the capacity vacuum of the government in terms of its security. again, how you approach that comes from a different number -- number of different areas, arenas, and it's not purely training and military training or security training or intelligence, although all of those things are hugely important. but i think what we have also seen in the aftermath of

benghazi was the importance of civil society as well, and the importance of the libyan people themselves making their voices heard and getting involved in supporting and holding to what they have fought so hard to gain, which is this democratic transition. i think they -- they have more skin in this game than anyone else and they know that. >> what happens in that transition? if we end up especially with the law that passed on sunday, and some of the resignations taking place and others being pursued, what happens to our relationship if we end up with militia men basically in these cabinet posts? >> sir -- >> i might say, when we end up with militia men -- >> okay. i'm not going to accept that premise quite yet, senator, but we have the be prepared tone beginning with anyone who is committed to a democratic transition in libya, and through peaceful means. >> what if it becomes an islamic

state? >> again, i think we have to be -- people talk about the muslim brotherhood. we have to be looking at many layers there, whether cutting off support for extremist groups, for extremist ideologies, however that support, whatever form that support may take, and we also at the same time need to be engauging with those groups who have, again, issued violence, who are committed to a democratic libya that's representative, and that, until i get on the ground and until i can do more there, i just am not prepared to rule it out, to rule anything in or rule anything out at this stage. i'm not saying it's simple. it's not. >> as you are in the provings that you're having -- and i know you played an important role at the state department recently -- how do you think the issues that we're dealing with in libya right now, we were involve but

not overly involved. we have ended up being where we are there today, and we have syria, which is developing and has similar characteristics, not all. how do you think our experiences in libya are shaping our responses as it relates relate ? >> i've not been involved in the policymaking on syria. i think clearly there are many challenges out there, and i think al all challenges are indicative of the transitions -- people want change. if there's one lesson we learned, it's that authoritarian and autocratic governments don't develop civil societies that can sustain its in the immediate aftermath of change, and that where is we need to be prepared to stay strengthen and support. i was reading the other day, i told people there's three books

i'm remming to people before guy to libya. one is, i'm giving them a pitch, i'm not getting royalties do-gordon woods but the american revolution, the second is, machiavelli. the prince, and the third is, the federalist papers. to look at how the idea of sovereignty emerges from the people, and how people in these places also need to understand that, they're not yielding authority, they're creating their authority as a nation. when they allow -- when they vote, when they participate, and when that is part of -- that's a manifestation that national strength is a manifestation of national will of the people's skill that's the lesson the libyans and the syrians and others have to learn and have to work with. it's taken us -- it's progressive as well. >> thank you. mr. chairman, i can stop or keep going. since no one else is here, go ahead and i'll go again. might move on to chad for a second. thank you very much for your

testimony. what do you see with recently in mali and i know that chad has certainly played a rolled there. what do you see the threat to chad being relative to mali? >> thank you, senator. my sense is that -- i think this is a widely shared view -- is that the government of chad sees the regional threats very clearly. it's the opportunities are because since 2010 there has been a possibility of greater domestic stability in chad because the regional threats hoff of have subsided. because of that, the threat that is posed by the terrorists and insurgents in mali were perceived as threats to the government of chad as well and eagerly pursued the opportunity to address those threats before they became more immediately loom over the government and people of chad. again, they've done a superb job

there the strongest contingent in terms of numbers and pro-active engagement with insurgents and terrorist. many african forces work effective live with the french, and this engagement gang with their own strongly driven desire to participate in this. so they self-deployed rather than await for the international community provide that kind of support. >> how fragile is the government? >> i don't consider it to be fragile as it lacks the capacities it needs to be effective. as you know the president has been in power since the 1990s. he recently won a fourth term. the government and people of chad appear to be comfortable with the way the government is emerging towards a more of a democratic and inclusive approach. again, what one sees since --

2010, a progressively greater interest in acquiring the capacity to govern, acquiring the capacity to support the urgently required economic development of chad and the pursuit of human rights and the respect for democracy across the board, both in terms of what it does directly as the government, and how civil society is taking a broader role, and international efforts to help achieve that state. >> i get the sense there's some question about the interagency coordination that's been taking place in chad. do you have any comments regarding that? and the lack thereof. >> i have not heard about significant problems. any issue of u.s. government policies within chad itself. the larger issue as i understand ace to make sure our everytimes are coordinated, harmonized and

mutually beneficial in termed of their pursuit. my best guess is that the kinds of issues that you may be referring for momentary and addressed relatively effectively by the team. >> and it is noteworthy both of you are going to be involved in the countries you're in, but obviously regionally both of you are going to be very important in your positions. one last question, and thank you, mr. chairman, for your courtesy. there's not usaid -- that's no usaid involvement in chad at this time. do you see that change sunrise anyny comments there? >> there is in fact a usaid representative at democracy and governance officer paid by usaid who there is full time and a member of the embassy staff. and he has done a universally well regarded job in terms of pursuing the ongoing usaid efforts there.

there hasn't been a usaid mission in chad since then '9s. there's been only the low level representation, and that decision resides with usaid in terms of goals and objectives and also with the finding that is available. my personal view -- i stress it's my personal view -- is that chad right now offers optimal opportunity for what a usaid mission can provide. that would help shape and empower the government of chad to pursue its goals of gotchance, help sport the capacities engamement which is necessary tone sure that its economic development proceed as quickly as possible. diversify its capacity to participate in the world economy and fundamentally improve the management of its oil resources which remains the pillar of its economy. >> thank you both for your desire to serve in this way. >> senator mccain. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and

welcome the witnesses, and ambassador knight, congratulations on your many years of service. ambassador jones, i thank you for yours as well. we had good meeting in my office. ambassador jones, a quick glance of the headlines in libam from the past several days obviously a stark reminder that libya's transition to democracy remains less than incomplete. i know two headlines from this morning, reuters, quote: libya defense minister quits over siege of ministries by gunmen, and the wall street journal, quote: libyans anticipate percentage after ban of ex-gadhafi officials. despite the challenges and despite what is happening, continue to believe we can't give into the temptation that our support for the democratic as separations of people in libya and elsewhere in the broader meal is naive or

mistaken. i don't think we can resign ourselves to the false belief that the arab spring is doomed to be define bid the fan simple of terrorists. i continue believe that remains a desire for democracy and freedom that has inspired millions of people to peaceful action and libya's example should remind us once again that even the worst dictators can be overthrown and swept into the ash heap of history where they belong. i am deeply concern by the libyan parliament's vote on sunday to adopt a political isolation law, and the ongoing siege of government ministries. the passage of the law exposes on the one hand the government's inability to deal with the armed groups, as well as the overall weaknesses of libya's central government. in your assessment, what impact will the political isolation law have on libya's transition and the integrity of prime

minister's cabinet? >> thank you, senator. i share your views that the libyan people owe the best we can give them help them succeed in their democratic transition. i also would like to mention subsequent, senator corker to your question, i'm hearing from our operations center it looks like the libyan prime minister may have convinced his defense minister not to resign. let's hope that holds true. so, again, it's an uncertain situation. i believe that the isolation law is something that i certainly would hope to address, if confirmed, get out with members and get them to rethink the application of that law, how it's defined. how they define many of the conditions. i think we all know from our own experience with legislation and dealing with that as americans, that sometimes much lies in how we apply it and execute the law,

and i'm hoping to have -- to have some influence on that and let think look at the future of the country instead of the immediate desire for revenge or -- they need to look further than that and i think the libyan people know that, and i do believe with you, sir, the majority of libyan people have fought too hard and want too badly to succeed in a government that is not one of intimidation. they have had that for 40 years they need a government of representation, sir. >> and you would agree that the libyan people largely very appreciative of the united states' assistance in the overthrow of gadhafi. it's not an environment where there's antiamericannism. in fact there's strong pro-americanism. >> absolutely. prior to your arrival i mentioned in hi statement that i had in fact received a number of e-mails from private libyans once the white house announced my candidacy, welcoming me to libya, and looking -- offering

their hope for the relationship to continue strongly, and we've lost a lot of time, sir. we need to get going on this. >> well, that is what i was going to mention next. after gadhafi was overthrown, light footprint was enacted. we -- many of us argued strenuously for the kinds of assistance, whether it be in border security, whether it be treatment of the wounded, whether it be helping organize military and -- i think it's pretty clear in the objective view of most observers that we have done very little. for example, 30,000 wounds, we treated three in a boston hospital. there's still the issue of sovereign immunity which seems to have hung up or ability to send people there to train their military. part of it is libyans' fault.

one heck of a lot of it is our fault. and i would expect that -- and i've talked to secretary kerry about this problem -- and you're going to have to start unsticking things but you're going to have to get the support of the administration, which so far has not been there. and so if you're going to succeed in libya, ambassador, you're going to have to speak truth to power. and truth power is that we are not giving them the assistance for a whole variety of ropes, not all ours. that will assist them in becoming a functioning democracy. you're not going to be able to go to eastern libya anytime soon. because it's no longer -- not just because of what happened in benghazi but it's no longer in control of the government. and situation in many was wayses

evidenced by yesterday's volt, continues to deteriorate and cries out for american assistance which would -- which is not the case in some other countries in the maghreb, would be more than welcome. so, i wish you luck. there's a lot of us who want to see you succeed, but most importantly, the people of libya be to able to realize a opportunity that they sacrificed a great deal of blood in trying to achieve. and you know the list of concerns we have. you know the areas we should be cooperating. ...

i think there has been some progress. to fargo. of course the fbi would have more the details. i give you my word that i will continue to press to bring that to resolution and bring justice to that. >> thank you. one additional item that i forgot to mention. when it is my turn. >> still ahead, senator. >> there is a small graveyard in tripoli, as you know. supposedly, allegedly containing the bodies of the american sailors who were unsuccessful in an attempt at raid during our attempts to bring the barbary pirates under control. there are remaining family members and others you are interested in the identification

and an effort to repatriate those bodies. it is not a big item in the grand scheme of things, but i think we probably should do what we can to give those brave americans that paris so long ago a place to rest that is fitting with their sacrifice. >> actually, that is the first was aware of that. i think small things can be very important leading to bigger things. i appreciate that. i was telling senator corker that in reading the history of the first time that we had bessie's in benghazi it was actually a crew, the u.s. army from tennessee, the reserves, who came and saved the day. a lot of connections, and we will follow up on that. >> i'm sure your number part of the marine corps hymn. >> absolutely.

we love the marines and the state department, and i remind people that all the time. >> thank you both for your testimony. i am convinced that you cannot direct american assistance without an ambassador at the location. that would be an exercise, i believe, and utility. and so we need an american ambassador at both of these locations. i believe that it is imperative behalf of these nominations move forward. it is not in the interest of the united states not to have an ambassador at these locations. the national interest and the ultimate outcome of the libyan future can be helped or we can allow it to be shaped by a course of events in which the united states is absent. and our best way in which to pursue the national interest of

the national security of the united states is to have an ambassador both of these posts. the record will stay open. i urge the nominees as well as the state department to answer any questions posed by committee members as soon as possible so that we can but these nominations on the next business with that i think the committee in this chair is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] >> the house oversight committee will hold a hearing tomorrow morning on the benghazi attack on the u.s. consulate that killed ambassador chris stevens. you can see live coverage at

11:30 a.m. eastern on c-span three. president obama met with the president of south korea. after the meeting the two leaders held a joint news conference where they addressed a number of issues, including recent actions by north korea involving the nuclear weapons. here is some of what they had to say. >> but the recent threats would drive a wedge between south korea and the united states or somehow barter the north international respect. today is further evidence that north korea has failed again. they have stood firm with confidence and resolve. the united states and the republic of korea are as united as never and faced with new international sanctions on north korea is more isolated than ever in short, the days when north

korea could create a crisis, those days are over. our two nations are prepared to engage with north korea's diplomatic and overtime build trust. as always and as the president has made clear, the burden is on them to take meaningful steps to abide by commitments and obligations, particularly the denuclearization of the korean peninsula. we discussed that they should take notice of events in countries like burma which as the reforms, is seeing more trade and investment and diplomatic ties with the world including the united states and south korea. for our part we will continue to coordinate closely with south korea and japan, and i want to make clear, the united states is fully prepared and cable of defending ourselves and our allies with the full range of capabilities available, including the deterrance provided by our conventional and nuclear forces. as i said last year, the

commitment of the united states to the security of the republic of korea will never waver. >> tomorrow the south korean president will be on capitol hill to address a joint meeting of congress. we can see your remarks live at 10:30 a.m. eastern on the companion network c-span. now the panel looks a border security provisions in the bipartisan gang of the immigration bill. we will hear from u.s. customs and border protection officials and the deputy director of immigration and customs enforcement at this and homeland security meeting. later this week the senate judiciary committee will review the bill line by line and vote on amendments. >> the hearing will come to

order. i am delighted to welcome all of you. a series of hate to have hearings that this committee is holding to examine our borders of the past decade. into the impact and immigration reform. during our two previous hearings we heard testimony from experts and folks that this table today, from some front-line personnel about the dramatic improvements we have seen in portions of our southern border since the last time that congress debated immigration reform seven years ago, 2006. we have made substantial investments in more security. i believe they are often the most part, paying off. 2006, border patrol was averaging more than 1 million arrests of authorized immigrants 1 million per year. and the unauthorized population living in the united states had reached an all-time high of 12 and half million people. since then we have hired more

than 9,000 or patrol agents. the overall staffing to more than 21,000. also struck some 600 miles of new fencing and deploy sophisticated cameras, sensors, and radars across a good part of the border with mexico. in part because of these investments, apprehensions of individuals attempting to cross our borders illegally erin a 40 year low. the population has decreased. despite all these developments we're still facing challenges. all too often these challenges have deep roots in our own domestic policies and social economic conditions of our neighbors. one of our witnesses as we look to the border to solve problems that do not originate there. i could not agree more. many to focus on the underlying causes of illegal immigration and drug smuggling. the expert and front-line

witnesses at our hearings earlier this year were all in agreement that passing immigration reform will make our borders more secure. we will do so by addressing several of the root causes of illegal immigration, providing workers and employers with legal avenues to fill the jobs that our economy needs to thrive and dollar our border officials to focus their efforts on criminals rather than on economic migrants i believe that the bill we are examining today represents a significant step toward achieving that goal. we will increase our security, even as it provides a fair, practical, and a tough path to citizenship for many but not all of the millions of people living in the shadows today. i would want to commend our colleagues, especially senator john mccain who worked tirelessly and fearlessly to craft a bill on which we are focused today. alec for debating and that bill layer this spring. the goal of today's hearing is

to review the bills border security provisions which are in his committee's jurisdiction. we have before us an excellent panel of witnesses from from nine agencies. asked and to give us their assessment of the bill, tell us how to implement the border provisions and to let us know what they believe they may need to add or to change from the bill. there's an old chinese proverb. some of you heard me say this before. show me and remember. involve me in no understand. that is why at tried to visit is much of the border region as i can. three years ago i visited california's board. many of you have, too. the past three months have been privileged to get out to the border in arizona, senator mccain, representative michael mccall who chairs the house committee on homeland security and it janet the polish town of, our secretary of vhs. up to the border with senator

carl levin, overtaxes just in the last week checking out some of the eastern -- the eastern portions of that. a lot of people coming across the border that are not for mexico, from places other than mexico, as you know. but i personally witnessed the challenges the brave men and women working on the frontlines facing every day. some of you have. we witnessed where you are dealing with. it varies widely from the dense urban landscape of the border near san diego to the desolate and rugged desert and the mountains of arizona to the lush vegetation of the rio grande valley in texas. some places along the border where we actually look to the north. mexico and south as texas. pretty amazing realization. almost hard to penetrate the vegetation along much of that river. based on what i have seen, i believe there is no

one-size-fits-all solution for securing our borders. a high-tech radar the works so well in arizona today will not permit or penetrate much of the dense foliage along the rio grande in texas that i saw last week. the drones that cp flies were great in some areas but can barely find others when the wind exceeds 15 knots, which is often achieving the goal of persistence surveillance set by the bill we are examining today will be challenging and costly. however, it is not impossible. there are, for example, number of common sense steps we can take to get better results along our borders to be one of them should be added to find and applying what i call force multipliers. appropriate for the different sectors along the border. in some parts of the border these may be advanced radar systems on drones. in others it may be systems that are hand-held are mounted on trucks. me to systematically identify the best technologies with your help and those of your

colleagues, we will make a front-line agents more effective and provide them with help that they need to be more successful in a cost-effective way. one specific thing i have seen firsthand is that an aircraft without an advanced radar system on board to help detect illegal activity on the ground is of very little value. far too many of the aircraft were deployed in support of the border patrol are not fitted with cameras are sensors that have been proven effective. last week i visited a place where find three different types of helicopters and only one of those is out with the kind of technologies. yet the two allies and ineffective. we have to be smarter than this. by comparison, in arizona i sign inexpensive single engine airplane that had been fitted with an advanced infrared radar camera system which had proven to be extremely effective and inexpensive to operate. however, the border patrol has 16 more of these aircraft that don't have any advanced sensors

on board that i barely used. in fact, they are almost worthless. we need to fix that. and it is not on an expensive. we also need to continue to develop and deploy cost-effective technologies such as hand-held devices that allow border patrol agents to see in the dark, enable our officers in our ports of entry to be more efficiently processing travelers and goods. investing in our ports of entry will also be an incredibly important part of improving border security and our economy as well. i am pleased that to propose legislation that we're discussing will provide some 3500 new officers and illegal border crossings nationwide. these officers represent a worthwhile investment for the country, helping to secure our borders and facilitate the trade and travel that our economy so badly needs. 3500 officers cost a fair amount of money, and we have an obligation to pay for that, and i believe those who have been working on this legislation that is before us today have been working on that. ministration as.

good ideas. hopefully we will implement those to be there are some things that i believe may be missing from the immigration reform bill and a plan to work with all of our colleagues here in the senate to address them. one of the larger issues are facing today is crawling unauthorized immigration from central americans to transit through mexico. want to here from our witnesses about what we can do to address this issue, not just address the symptoms of the problem, which i saw firsthand at a detention center with 1100 mostly salvadorans, guatemalans and endurance. a few mexicans last week in texas. one thing that we may need to explore is how to make it easier for border officials to work with and train mexican counterparts in order to help mexico secure its own borders. finally the miles of believe that the department of homeland security needs to do a much better job of measuring its performance at our borders and that these bombings measures must be made available to congress and the american people. we need to be able to measure

what you're doing. we need to be able to do that in an objective way. the people understand. we understand, you understand, the bill we are discussing today would make one such measure, the effective date public. well it is to get first and, believe there are number of other matters concerning activities between the ports of entry and should also be made publicly available. i look forward to questions with our panel. the country stands to benefit enormously from the tough, practical policies laid out and this bill, especially for to working with dr. culver none of our colleagues. >> thank you. i want to welcome you all here. i am excited to hear the intercourse and interchange between what our ideas that are problems in the answers to those problems. i think we have a difficult job. oftentimes think the spirit of

want to thank kaynine for what you do. it is hard. i am concerned with the emigration bill coming forward and additional responsibilities that will be placed through that bill if it were to become law on the capability of the agencies to actually carry out. and the reason i am concerned is because there are so many areas where we are not effective today . and although we have an immigration problem, we really have is a border control problem and a visa problem. and i guess worker problem. it is important that we fix the real disease, not the symptoms. and tell -- we need not have a secure border today. and we know that by the apprehensions and even though they are less, it is still not secure, and i have a lot of concerns coming forward with immigration. we will wait and see what happens in the markup. i think we made a mistake and we should have asked for a sequential referral on it

because so much of it is going to impact the agency that is under the direction of this committee. nevertheless, i am appreciative of the hard work of those giving testimony today and especially wanted thank ann richards for her hard work can be outlining the she has done. we have some other concerns, especially on the drone program. we have inquired and not received adequate answers yet in terms of the privacy protections of that which has been, we have had that letter in for over a month. we have not gotten the appropriate answers were satisfactory answers to those questions, and that is one of the things that has to be a part of any drug program. life or to your testimony. again, thank you for your efforts. think what senator carper has put forward is, we really want to work as a committee to up to accomplish your jobs, not throw up roadblocks, but actually find

out what the real problems are, we can do about it, but also hold you accountable for the things that you can be doing if you are not today as outlined by the ig. thank you, senator. i appreciate our panelists. >> before i introduce our witnesses in and let me talk about what was said. about a year or two ago i was walking into the special olympics basketball tournament, the bob carpenter center. i walked in with one of the high-school basketball coaches. is said to him, coach, you been doing this for a long time, to basketball. you the best players? the person who is the best shot, the best rebounder, a dribbler, pastor. who is, in your mind, the most valuable player. he says the most valuable player every time i ever coach of the ones to make everyone else better. think about that. the most valuable player on every team is ever coast of those to make everybody else and the team better. part of our responsibility, you

do a lot of oversight. at the aggregate getting better, the part of our responsibility is to find and how we make you better in the people that work with you better commit thousands of people from california all the way over to the gulf of mexico and up on the northern border as well. how can we make those people, your colleagues better. that is what we are about. that having been said, will introduce our witnesses. the hon. david him, assistant secretary for policy the department of homeland security. head of the office of policy. on strategy and policy developed for the apartment. pryor is appointed 2009 he served in a number of positions in academia, government, and the private sector. our second alleges -- mr. calvin. i am going to pronounce your name for me again. >> magdalene. okay. acting deputy commissioner of u.s. customs and border protection. in this capacity, a deputy

commissioner is the chief operating official of customs and border protection and previously served as the acting assistant commissioner of the agency's office of field operations. poor security and trade operations. welcome. and our third witnesses michael fisher. chief of the u.s. border patrol. responsible for planning, coordinating, and directing the enforcement efforts to secure our nation's borders. his current position, a certain number of positions within the border patrol which he first joined in 1987. joining us today for questions. answers and will not be giving all statement. next witness is nathaniel ranks debt and a deputy director and chief operating officer for u.s. immigration and customs enforcement. prior to this assignment he served as the executive associate director for management of administration at the agency. previously he worked at the former u.s. immigration and

naturalization service office of general counsel and served as an attorney in new york and in arizona. our final witness is ms. and richards, assistant inspector general for audits of the office of the inspector general within the department of homeland security. he joined the office of inspector general in 2007 and was previously assistant inspector general for audits at the u.s. department of interior from 2005-2007. from 84-99 she worked with the u.s. army audit agency. i think all of our witnesses for being here, and i now turn to assistant secretary for his opening statement. please proceed. the entire statement will be made part of the record and we look forward to respond in asking questions. thank you. >> thank you, chairman, ranking member coburn, members of the committee. it is my distinct pleasure to be here today this morning along with my colleagues from ice and cp and the inspector general's office. it is also almost four years

exactly to the basis this committee gave me the honor and puffins -- privilege to serve our nation. take you for your continued support. would like to begin by commending the work of the bipartisan group of senators who put for the current bill the we are discussing today. we all recognize that our immigration system is broken and that we can no longer ignore the problem. linnaeus' system that meets the needs of law enforcement, businesses, and wrens, communities, and our economy. this legislation will attract skilled workers, encourage economic growth, and bring persons living on lawfully out of the shadows making them ripe with the law and show that they pay penalties and back taxes and regularize their status. i applaud the congress' efforts and look forward to continuing to work with you on this issue. the focus of this hearing is border security and how release to this bill. one of the principal missions of the department of common security is to secure our nation's borders, to prevent the illegal entry of people, drugs, weapons command contraband while

expediting legitimate trade and travel. i think it is a port for the public to appreciate the extraordinary breadth and vitality of our u.s. borders and the work it teeeight just as every day securing the. let me begin by describing an average day at our borders. on a daily basis vhs process is over 1 million in bound travelers entering the u.s. by air, land, and see. we prescreen over 2 million passengers before they fly into, out of, within tomorrow for the united states, patrol over 3 million square miles of u.s. waterways and 5,000 miles of diverse terrain and our northern and southern borders. we screen all cargo coming to an entering the united states. we managed eight trusted traveler program with over 1 million individuals enrolled. reprocess well over 700 vessels in the maritime environment delivering goods to our businesses, homes and communities, and we verify the identities and that hundreds of thousands of these applicants and individuals seeking to enter

the u.s. every day. in the process of all this work, ice, ct, under u.s. coast guard will seize over 20,000 pounds of drugs at or near our ports of entry. we stop over half a million dollars daily of counterfeit currency from entering our financial system. hs site, homeland security investigations unit will arrest over 100 individuals who have violated immigration or customs laws, and we will remove and return an average of 1200 individuals daily to on lawfully that is will begin daily. it is essential to know that the way we manage border security to date has changed significantly over the past ten years. over the last four years in particular the obama administration has been crucial investments in border security, adding personnel, and provide technology and strengthening infrastructure. as secretary apologize previously stated, our borders have never been stronger.

first, we made our ports of entry much more efficient, facilitating lawful trade and travel. second, we expanded our partnerships with the federal, state and local partners and territorial law enforcement as well as with the private sector. third, internationally, we continue to improve partnerships to deter illegal smuggling and trafficking and improve intelligence and information sharing so that we can identify threats well before they reach our shores. the numbers speak for themselves 2004 the department had a total of 10,000 border patrol agents. today we count 21,000. the southwest border we have increased our border patrol agents to a nearly 94%. in the northern border we have 2200 border patrol agents. we have increased the number of cp officers who secure the flow of people and goods into our nation to over 21,000 officers up from 17,000 in 2003. as my colleagues with me today will tell you, these enhancements are resulted in greatly improved enforcement procedures, trade facilitation,

and out comes. in order to support a modern immigration system the apartment also understands that we must have the ability to effectively track that only you enters our country but also how and when they exit. for two decades the federal government has worked to obtain accurate and timely data on the individuals who have overstayed their admission to the u.s. however, the u.s. did not build its border and immigration structure with exit processing in mind. airports and have designated exit areas are specific checkpoints where passengers depart and is recorded by immigration officer is yet seen in other countries, so it has been a challenge. even so, over the past decade d.h. has piloted various programs in 15 airports to try to achieve such a system. we found that the limitations of existing technology plus the lack of infrastructure for departing passengers would drive the cost of programs to nearly

$3 billion or more while disrupting air travel for passengers and airlines alike. secretary napolitano found that to be unsatisfactory. into does intend she directed the department to enhance the existing exit system to a level of stability equal to or nearly equal to a biometric system of continuing to preserve more cost solutions in the future. the past three years and am pleased to said the department is taking steps to implement a formal measures to achieve those goals. tear enhancements to our current system which electronically matches the information on an individual's passport and arrival and departure, d.h. yes, can now identify and target for enforcement those who have overstayed their admission and represent the public safety and international security threat. we take action against those and moreover we continue to move forward with building a biometric system and advance the requisite technologies to be integrated into the system when cost-effective and peaceable to do so.

this marks a significant step forward. let me conclude by saying over the past several years, the department has made substantial gains in more security. we have significantly reduced the flow of illegal immigration and now have an historic opportunity to strengthen our economy, improve our security command address illegal immigration. it is time for common-sense reform. think the committee for their work on this. a little to working with you and answer your questions. >> good morning. thank you for the opportunity to be here today and appear before you. on behalf of the men and women in u.s. customs a border protection, we appreciate the committee's lead in commitment to ensuring the security of the american people and look for to discussing the progress made in strengthening the border and have comprehensive immigration reform will build on our successes and improve the security and safety of the united states. with your support cp has made

historic investments in border security, adding more personnel, technology, and infrastructure, making dorsiventral more efficient, deepening partnerships with federal, state, trouble, local, and international law enforcement command proving intelligence and information sharing to identified threat sooner and strengthening entry procedures to protect against the use of fraudulent documents. we have deployed proven an effective technologies to the border taylor to the operational needs of our agents on the ground and strengthen our air and marine interdiction capabilities. today after ten years of investments and training equipment and improve information sharing, our border is more efficiently managed and stronger than ever before. , a free-market articulated has the potential to advance these efforts further. the bill with continued strength in securities of our border as well as hold employers more accountable if they knowingly hire undocumented workers and also modernize our legal immigration system providing lawful pathways for import categories of workers for our economy.

cp will continue to work with congress on this much in reforms of of my car bore more secure. we are now more capable than ever in our efforts to secure the border between ports of entry. double the number of border patrol agents and poor surveillance systems of static and mobil, improved intelligence collection and provide critical situational awareness and support of our agents and officers on the ground. primary fans and vehicle barricades' in strategic locations have limited the actions available to smuggling organizations to operate. aerial platforms with advanced technology has substantially increased situational awareness enhancing the when we deploy resources on the ground and leading to increased operational effectiveness on the southwest border. additionally over the past three years advanced assessment of enforcement data has produced programs such as a consequence delivery system which has allowed us to reduce the percentage of apprehensions the result of voluntary return from 41% in 2011 to 22% in 2012. moreover, consequent delivery has contribute to the reduction

in the overall rate of recidivism from a six year average of 24% to 12 percent today. at our ports of entry we have increased the number of cp officers facilitating the secure flow of people and goods and our nation from approximately 17,000 customs immigration inspectors in 2003 to more than 21,000 cp officers and 2300 agricultural specialists today. f. white 2012 cp officers arrested 17,700 people wanted for serious crimes including murder, rape, assault, and robbery. officers also stop nearly 145,000 in admissible aliens from entering the united states drop ports of entry. to build on the successes, the administration's fiscal year 2014 budget includes a request for 3,477 new cp officers. of this about 1600 are requested through appropriate funding, and legislative changes are recommended to fund an additional 1877 officers. these officers will support

economic growth and promote the creation of new jobs. a recent study released by the center for risk and economic analysis of terrorism of at the university of southern california has found that an increasing staffing at ports of entry has an impact on wait times and transaction costs and therefore on the u.s. economy. according to the study's results for the new officers could generate an estimated 115,000 new jobs each year and increase the gross domestic product by a 7 billion. to build on the successes, efforts to strengthen security at our borders must continue as threats involved. this bill will enable cp to continue to expand the use a proven technology to secure the lands and maritime borders, strengthen and enhance capabilities the ports of entry and combat illicit border activities. immigration reform allow us to build upon the progress we've already made and strengthen our ability to assure a safe and driving border. thank you for inviting us to appear today. we welcome the opportunity to discuss a significant progress

in strengthening our nation's borders and answer any questions you may have. thank you. >> thanks. thank you very much. chief fisher, i understand you're not here to testify. do you approve this message? >> with a reservation. >> you are wrong. welcome. >> good morning. thank you for the opportunity. the second-largest in the federal government. the men and women of every day play a critical role in securing the border and carrying a smart and effective immigration enforcement policies. since its creation ten years ago ice has made tremendous strides in realize considerable on for some results. for example, the security has made over 304 dozen criminal arrests and fiscal year 2012. this record number represents the increase of nearly

30 percent over to a dozen nine. these convictions are directly tied to our border and nation's immigration system. document identity fraud, customs violation, human smuggling, and traffic. also about the illicit pathway. this initiative supports the strategy to combat transitional organized crime by focusing and international organizations engaged in narcotics, weapons, a human smuggling atrocities, cyber crime commandos of finance. ice has also set records in our civil immigration enforcement. done this by setting an carrying out smart, clear priorities. for instance, this year ice enforcement operations -- ticker of record number of individuals from the country. one into water and 25,000 been convicted of felonies or misdemeanors. yet another record of 96 percent fell into our people priory

categories. the successes could not be achieved without the implementation of smart and effective and efficient policies issued by secretary to paul, and director morgan. we are also proud of our key partnerships across the federal government. for example -- and i know often the special responsibilities. for example, in 2010 ice and cp entered into a memorandum of understanding regarding preparations. not available before and it solidified the commitment to fostering see bp awareness and involvement into criminal investigations involving cp employees. our existing relationships as they the groundwork for continued success in the critical area of insuring the integrity of the work force of the border. maintain this relationship will be critical following any reforms that involved increase staffing levels at the board. in addition, ice plays an important role investigating cases referred from cp. this fiscal year 2009 they

increased at the ports of entry and 25% between the ports of entry. this relationship between our two agencies has made america safer. all of these successes are the result of reasonable immigration policies and priorities, even at this time of budget uncertainty we are using our resources and smart, effective, and responsible manner. order to build on these gains and further enhance the national security, public safety, and border security, we must update our immigration laws. the adoption of reforms like those in the current bill will our agents and officers to better focus on those who threaten public safety, border security command provides the tools we need to crack down on those who cheat the system by hiring illegal aliens. working to modernize immigration laws. thank you for the opportunity to testify in a look for to answer any questions. >> thank you very much. good to see you. >> good morning, chairman, ranking member, members of the committee. thank you for inviting me to

testify to that. u.s. the we focus on the steps to believe the department will need to take to ensure the metrics of the border security and economic upper to the immigration act of verifiable and enforceable. in preparing your testimony we reviewed the results of audits and inspections of for border security and immigration programs. allied only a few of the reports in my statement this morning. in the last ten years teeeight jesses made progress in coming together as a department and in accomplishing its fundamental mission including securing our borders. however, numerous challenges remain. to implement this proposed legislation teeeight as will need to fully assess its current status, but the ad and five needs and requirements and meticulous the plan and execute the acquisitions and operations. this effort will require both time and resources, but altman department should be able to master this challenge. today i will highlight three overarching issues that we identified in our audits and inspections of the department to address to achieve the goals and

standards set forth in this act. the first issue of like to discuss this data reliability. to evaluate its performance and carry out certain actions in the proposed act the testimony complete, accurate, up-to-date information in our reviews we identified many programs and systems that did not have complete and accurate data. we also identified instances in which ba just to not have been that it needed from other entities. for example, in december 2011 report we determined that i.c.e. officers making decisions about the tension and release a potential aliens did not always maintain accurate and up-to-date information and case management system. last year we reported that in the systematic alien verification for entitlement program immigration status information was sometimes outdated and erroneous. some people mistakenly identified as having lawful immigration status when they did not have it. this could mean that some

individuals would be given benefits that there were not entitled to receive. in our audit of the free and secure trade we found that cpb could not ensure that mexican participants are low risk because mexico does not share permission to assist. also eligible drivers may have continued to participate in the program because cpb used in employee data for the continuous vetting process. the second overarching area that the department is to address is planning. to fully accomplish the actions laid out the act such as increased surveillance on the southern border, the department will need to have an effective planning process to identify operational requirements. for example, the act requires monitoring of the border by unmanned aerial systems. the apartment on the operating requirements including the necessary quantity of aerial vehicles, ground support, maintenance, and whether resources will be needed.

the department has established directives and policies that does not yet had detailed plans completed for unmanned aerial systems. lastly, the department will need to address some longstanding business and i teach challenges and continue to pursue additional technologies to address border security issues. although dat as is taking steps to upgrade and integrate its business and i t systems including those related to immigration is not yet succeeded for example, and a report issued in late 2011 we noted that u.s. transformation has been delayed and has continued to rely at its paper based process to support its mission. in addition, dhs niece to see gatt and adopt new technologies that will take into account the needs of various components and enhance its ability to secure borders. last year in reviewing the cpb strategy to address illicit cross border tunnels we concluded that it had not been able to identify any existing effective tunnel detection

technology. cpb is actively working to identify new solutions for tunnel detection. we have identified a number of challenges that d.h. as must overcome to the secure our borders and establish effective immigration processes. some of these challenges are resolved differing legacy systems and programs that need to be integrated and coordinated among the components and with stakeholders outside of the department. other challenges are related to an adequate strategic planning, performance measures, and did it, and information that cannot be relied on to make sound decisions. based on the apartments and the components responsive to our reports it is clear that they are diligently working to address these issues affect the department's ability. for these reasons overcoming these challenges will take considerable effort. we believe that the department will continue to improve and

achieve its goal. the office of inspector general will continue to work with dhs and congress on these issues. our goal remains the same, to develop solutions that strike a balance between protecting the integrity of mission accomplishment and fostering innovation that increases the apartments transparency and efficiency, and effectiveness. this concludes my prepared remarks. >> very helpful testimony. thank you. >> folks that are undocumented, coming your document. the underlying causes. what they used to say, something like we see the problem and it's

us. we have a huge trade in illegal drugs in this country. they have to come from someplace and we can't shut them down. some from the south and some from the north. across to people. that's a big part of the underwire. the drugs go north and the guns go south. that's a big part of the problem a couple of former ag's know what i speak. the second thing is we have employers in this country knowingly hiring illegal aliens and in some cases they try to hire americans. it all want to. and one of the things that we need to do is to do a better job of making sure that those that are hiring, knowingly hiring illegal aliens are stopped. to the extent that we can punish them severely identify and

punish them, we need to do that. we need to send a message. the other thing is to a better job working with intelligence. officers from the north and south and countries like mexico and central america, better be able to deploy our forces. so those are some of the -- it's almost like symptoms. most of the, the age of my boys. pops out someplace else. it's popping and in places like el salvador, honduras, a lot of them are coming because of the mayhem in their countries. my feeling earlier, the best

players are the ones to make everybody else better. no one to ask you how you can make us better. a couple of examples. it spent about 23 years in the airplane. new airplanes. a man to talk about these ct 06 another aircraft and helicopters without any surrounds equipment. it just defies belief. tracking and diesel submarine, we have the ability to detect them when they come up, detectives go to a detective on the surface. the ability did detect emissions . we have the abilities hear them, listen for their acoustic signature and look at it visually. turnup the radars, to ensure it's clear.

any number of ways that we can find an attractive. well we send out a c206 and have a pilot, don't have an observer on board and don't have anything looking down, that is crazy. and to say that we have more than a dozen of them that are down with no surveillance equipment to my don't get it. i just don't get it. we have the same problem with their helicopters. these drones, four of them. the senator in arizona. we don't resource them. they can fly during the course of the week. they fly 16 hours a day, five days a week. if the winds are only 15 not come we don't fly them and all. that doesn't make any sense. >> using the schedule. a mountain in afghanistan, a

mountain, we take them out. for some reason we can't take them out in our own country. we're going to have a lot of money. thanks in no small part to the sky right here to try to make sure we have the resources and you have the resources to do some of the things that i just mentioned. it's going to get this money. what you going to do with it? >> along the lines of what i just said. were you going to do with it? >> thank you, senator. i think you have identified a number of issues that are reason for her the need for legislation . if you look at the work that we have been doing, what you see in the trend line is we are moving in the right direction. one of the things that bill does is build on the continuing deployment of improvement and effective technologies that help

to address the drug trafficking and illegal immigration issues. with the resources and the provisions in the bill we will be able to do more of that. the border will be more secure. you mentioned the challenges in the workforce. that is absolutely true. the work force issues present a magnet for illegal reverence to come here. we need to develop the system where employees check to see if somebody is lawfully present the party of the administration to make work force validation universal. that is in the legislation and will be helpful as well. if you look at the very specific issues the you have addressed, you will find provisions within

the bill that help us get to that. on the specific issues of the u.s. and the -- >> ct 06. >> let me turn to my chief over here. >> glad. >> we work hand in glove in terms of what our requirements are on the ground. as the assistant commissioner for the air operations, in fact taking a look at current capabilities that we have from the air platforms in shifting nose into other platforms where they would work and we can operate those of lower costs. currently both in terms of safety in in terms of flight readiness to be able to do that testing to get those deployed. >> all right. thanks.

>> ms. richards, how would you characterize the da test department track record in planning and executing major sophisticated border security programs. >> the department has concentrated a lot of time and effort recently on taking some significant steps to improve the acquisition and program management processes. would have to say that based upon the hours worked and the gao work, the track record has been admittedly lackluster today. again, i would say that they have put a lot of time and effort into putting the skeleton in place of that they can make major improvements in the process. we have not yet had an opportunity to audit an acquisition that has been through the entire process. one also like to say that part of the problem is that the perception -- the process is not as important as the end result. we have the program managers tell us things like life cycle

cost estimates just gather dust once we complete the. the information was not used as the program is ongoing for things like budgeting or obtaining money to continue to run the program. so because those intricate and difficult to complete planning documents are not viewed as valuable in real life, it might be getting less attention than they should. >> that is a question of leaders. in terms of your findings on current border operations, what challenges do you anticipate that vhs will have in terms of the new responsibilities in the execution of the new strategies with this current proposed bill? >> additional requirements to put on additional responsibilities of an already stressed organization, as i said in my testimony, they have the capabilities, but the need to take the steps carefully and in

order. the need to make the plan of what there are to use the equipment their purchasing for and then purchase the right equipment and make sure that they have done it properly outfitted and that they have the support in place for it. >> going back, we have these two '06. one of them as not to technology why is there one with mounted technology in the other with non? and why is it in terms of the answer we just heard, as we're looking it that when, in fact, will we already know is the answer, is in a monetary problem , and execution problem, management problem. if they can't do that, our they going to handle the new requirements coming to them in a new emigration bill? >> we have not looked at the program specifically. in some of the other programs that we looked at, there does sometimes seem to be quick to follow the letter of what they

have been asked to do, get some drones. so we get some drones without really thinking about what it will take to operate those grounds in the kern and burma. and it is up planning issue as well as a management issue. >> according to your office, the agent says phil to close out 47 separate recommendations of recent reports by the ig related to border security work. that comes from the table listing all your recent audits and recommendation. can you run through the close of numbers for the committee? company recommendations of the closed? company and not closed? >> sure. thank you. we have -- a total of 16 reports with 47. there was a total of 51 reports that we edified and recommendations for border security and immigration process a total of 259 recommendations until. you can see, a great number of

the recommendations have been the only agree to bunt successfully implemented. >> of these 47, what are the major ones that you would put as a priority for this committee to know that you think should be done first and second, third. you can answer that later he would rather. >> sure i can't go through all of the 47. i would say that we are particularly concerned about the recommendation on the ua be, unmanned aerial vehicles. we also have concerns about the recommendations on the fast program. the ones to develop a process to assess the effectiveness of the program on security issues. we have other recommendations that were not strictly on border security. on a wider view such as our recommendations on inoperable communications that we also think are very important for the departments of act on as part of this process.

>> if you were to create a to do list for the agency , but will be number one and will be number two among will be number three? >> in terms of this proposed legislation, the planning process for the ua these, number one. looking at the legislation in its entirety, there's a lot of money to be spent on a plan to be spent to increase technology at the border. i would like to see them to do a job of planning and before they spend the money. >> what do you think about that? in terms of especially the comments to this country has a lot of technology that we have invested through our experience is overseas in terms of you a feast. why is this heart? why is it difficult to get to the point where we actually have the technology associated with them? why is it hard to get to where we need to go?

is a financial? what is it? >> thank you, senator. there are a couple of things i would comment on. one is that border patrol has put together for each of the sectors, high-technology plant. within the technology plan behalf to consider not only what their strategic objectives are and how they accomplished them in the naked varmint. they have to figure out what technologies matches, the sec -- procurement, deployment schedules and all those things. i would commend that discussion on that because this is exactly what the ideas as director of interested in. in terms of the late unmanned aerial vehicles, we have stood up a working group within the

department that includes not just the operators but also the policy folks, the privacy folks. we are making sure the emigration of the technology needs to our interests of our policy in privacy perspective. >> my time has expired. >> senator coburn. >> senator johnson, please proceed. >> thank you, mr. chairman. secretary, you mentioned our exit policy. before i get into other border security issues of a lot to talk a little bit about the boston city bomber. as best i can understand, we have a system that should be tracking antenna should be paying, and we have the tax system, the treasury enforcement communication system where suspect number one, i guess, was pained and that information came to an individual apartment c'mon

let security. describe that process. >> sure. what you have is a 90 system that in advance of a person's departure or rival to or from the united states , usually somewhere around 72 hours in advance of that, sends a message called the hot list. if there is an individual to take a look at or take a second look at. this is all done in cpb land. a customs official in that case if there is an active case, something that deserves an additional look, it is sent to the specific joint terrorism task force focusing and that is what happened. >> in this specific case he was actually paying then somebody in the apartment of voluntary did

receive that an affirmation. ..

>> do you think this will make any further impact on our? will continue the problem? >> i do not think so. i think the framework laid out in immigration reform bills target some of the key areas and additional officers at different ports of entry, an area with chairman this growth and we need to keep up with it to make sure that we can secure and facilitated appropriately.

in addressing immigration pathways as well. i think that those are investments that will advance our security and move us forward. >> i know the bill lays out a process where the department, i guess, where ways on us and the border. do we not have that plan? how many times have we developed that in trying to secure the border? >> i do think we have a good foundation for that plan. as i stated in the context of the bill, providing a specific roadmap which seems like an important aspect. >> you talked about planning, you are here all the time. i hear the same bureaucratic answers that we have to execute and we need more resources.

but it doesn't seem like we need to secure the border. but we are still making progress. >> i like to differentiate between the plan to secure the border and the thing that i was talking about. having to deal with the equipment and personnel and down to the nitty-gritty where we have resources. the planning that i am talking about is on the aircraft and how many pilots to be need and how many mechanics to me. that is part of the planning i would like to do to identify in this legislation to implement the broader plan.

>> to the department spends $50 billion per year. we are not doing that planning now with a $50 billion we are spending. >> i can only speak to the programs that we have audited. >> i have sat through hearings for a couple of years and we continue to hear about it. why don't we take this and what prevents us -- right we continue to have spotters for the drug lords to provide that information. >> senator, i will take that question. the environments in which we operate include the law-enforcement environment. they are very different in terms of the engagement on what we can and can't do and we compare it to places like afghanistan and iraq. the rules of engagement are what we call use of force and apply to individuals on mountain tops.

it's a little bit more difficult in terms of what we actually do once we identify them. we have plans in place and we have removed utilizing spotters in the mountains. it continues to be a significant threat and a persistence on our part to mitigate that. >> how many spotters have been taken out? >> i don't have that number. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you. the next is senator baldwin, who will be back. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to start by thanking the men and women in our department of homeland security.

some on very dangerous train to keep our borders secure. i am encouraged to see the bipartisan product. there are encouraging provisions of this bill. it addresses for the security and unification and high skilled workers and pathways to legal citizenship for undocumented individuals. if done right, it will create jobs, bolster security and keep us together. our responsibility was now to ensure that we keep america both save my question is about the trigger mechanism in this bill. i would like to hear from any of you who wish to comment on now. i understand this requires a

plan to establish effective control of the border. to be deemed as having effective control, the department of homeland security must have to establish persistent surveillance and put together a plan with an effectiveness rate of 90% or higher including the massive scope of this job, i would like to talk about formalizing a plan of this

magnitude. >> i will start and my colleague will engage as well. we think that the bill is advanced as proposed and we do believe that we can operationally execute the bill with these standards and i think it was 90% effectiveness and we have accomplished those goals. >> thank you, senator. first, let me kind of walk through this. on the persistence, it is very similar. i think of it into terms. there are effects along the border where our field commanders and agents indicate that there will always be a

vulnerability in open areas where we know people are going to exploit those areas. we identify those areas over time that we do in fact need. this includes persistent surveillance and appointments. in other areas, the vast majority that we know, we know based on agents, the activity takes the form of situational awareness. the way that we measure that right now includes a couple of examples. one would be periodic tracking on the ground and experts are trying to identify this. we have tens of thousands that tell us basically what activities happening in that area and we aggregate that information and analysis at the

time. there are other things in terms of the ground sensors and utilizing change detection. in other areas where we have recently utilize this, we understand it from others within the government. so we are looking to be able to have persistent surveillance where we have our degree and our eyes on personnel and technologies. and what other areas we have with utilize technologies to identify those areas as well. the second thing regulates the effective rate. this includes the number of trackbacks. these are individuals that have made an entry and have turned around and gone back from where they came.

the you take the apprehensions and you divide that by the overarching entries. the total amount of entries that comment. so three things generally happen and two of them are good. we apprehend him where we turn around and go back. the third one we always try to minimize. we have detected this through the technology and the observation and we try to continue to work that in some cases, they get away from us and they are not apt to turn back. our ability is to make sure that effectiveness is higher in all areas and we believe that at or above 90% is an area that we should foot the bill at 90%. last point is the timeliness in

terms of implementation that is sufficient. >> thank you, senator. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i especially want to thank you and the ranking member for taking time out of your schedule to come to the border and invite my colleagues to take the time to visit the arizona border, the texas border, whatever fortovase used to. i think that it is the best way to make anyone aware of the problem and the difficulty and the challenges that our brave men and women are serving on the border and what they go through. i want to thank both of you and i invite my colleagues as well.

apprehensions are up for the first time in a long time. i think you testified before about 13%. which means that the economy has something to do with coming across the border. is that a valid assumption? >> yes. >> part of it is that sequestration has reduced our ability to be able to survey all and there may be comprehensive immigration reform. is that true? >> yes, many individuals are still coming across the border. >> we should be very cognizant of that. i don't mean to be parochial, but especially a two-time sector

are the most difficult and least secure part of the entire border. would you agree with that remark. >> yes, sir. >> there is a provision to prosecute criminals, criminal prosecution for anyone who transmits information to facilitate the drug traffickers. i want to talk to you for a minute about technology and when you are at done, you're sitting in a vehicle and your efficiency drops rather significantly. in the relatively short. as time, that is why so many of us have emphasized the need for technology and sensors, and of course, the boeing fiasco, which

is such a disgrace, costing $787 million in an effort to provide this across the border. i hope that we learned lessons from that. there is a new radar that was developed in a loss to develop people who plant ied's. how are you doing on that radar? >> senator, we are still learning every day. as you know, i don't want to be redundant. it is relatively new in terms of technology and giving us the capability that we haven't seen before. and we are still learning on the best way to implement that system. >> i think the language in the bill, as a consultant with the army people who went through this whole evolution of this radar and how to use it most

effectively. that is not to kill people. but surveillance and detection is a marvelous advance in technology. which brings me to this. we have problems with this not only as far as numbers are concerned, but also interference with airspace that is being used by the military. how we are doing on that as well. >> i will check on the interface. >> but it is a problem, the airspace being used by both the border patrol and the military has caused significant difficulty. is it not true? >> it has had some challenges. >> this is about specifically the ranges that are being used by the military aircraft, and i

hope you will report to us on that. as richard would say, there are other challenges and an adequate strategic planning including what ideas and thoughts that you have about how we can improve the performance measures on the border. there's a lot of concern about that. >> thank you. >> on the issue, there is a problem with native americans because of tribal sovereignty. would you agree on that issue? >> yes, senator, we are

operating in those communities. there is an ongoing collaboration integration. >> but up until now, it has been a real problem. >> it has been challenging in terms of deploying technology. >> okay, $4.5 billion is a lot of money. also with the provision in the bill, after we don't have this effective control, then another $2 billion should be spent. how confident are you that after the expenditure of the funds that are authorized and appropriated in this legislation , that we will be able to take the measures necessary to assure the american people that never again a third wave. >> senator, i think that the legislation provides a number of different tools and devices, as well as the appropriations. it is called comprehensive

because it addresses a number of things. the consequences of that, i think, because of this, because of the technology deployment and the stream lining of immigration mosque, our ability to have better control of the borders will also improve. so we are confident that it is the right formula. >> in conclusion, senator johnson pointed out that there is some obvious areas, particularly on student visas and humanitarian visas that need to be looked at. i think he would be appropriate, i would say that for this to be part of the amending process, it is either existing order we need

new legislation and regulations to prevent the kind of occurrence where people can leave the country and only one agency protects it and then it comes back and nobody is alerted and we will be held on us. but i believe it would be appropriate, mr. chairman, as we go through a comprehensive immigration bill that we look at the errors that were made in the boston situation and most importantly, the areas that may require additional legislation to be involved in the current. >> thank you. the senator has rejoined us. we recognize him next. >> thank you so much, mr. chairman. i thank you all for the work that you do and i think the staff of the work that they do under very difficult situations.

as some senator baldwin said, with tough terrain. we will not get comprehensive immigration reform of the public has confidence in what you do. unless the public honestly believes this will be a change. competent personnel deployed and they will have enough food commitment to making sure this happens. but this isn't just something that we do because it's going to make us feel good. we know that typically there are two types of people. those who come to work, who want to join relatives, and then there is the criminal element. we cannot downplay the criminal element. because we see it certainly at the southern border, but we also have a great deal of concern on the northern border. so focusing on little bit on the

northern border, one of my concerns and looking in looking at this, even though i am anxious to see your plans and make sure that this works. it includes redeploying assets that we currently have on the northern border to the southern border and what that means in terms of the impact on protection in the northern border. and we know that at least one, maybe two of the 9/11 bombers did not come in to the southern borders, they came in through the northern borders. so please explain to me, i think, and maybe she fisher, you are the people that i understand the best. because it was very closely monitored with border control. explain to me what the plans are in terms of maintaining security on the northern borders and deployment of resources so that we don't lose focus of what is

happening. >> thank you for the question, senator. first and foremost, i am committed to border security and protecting this country. whatever the bill ends up being, we will implement that, and we will make sure that our commitment to protect this country does not change regardless of what happens. i'm speaking on behalf of a the 21,000 men and women who do that everyday. thank thanks for the compliment, by the way. to your second point, i'm glad that you brought this up, so many people think that border is only the southern border and before my first deployment to the northern border, it was different challenges, as you well know. it's a constant evaluation. whether you are looking at the southern border or the northern border. it's going to constantly change. our ability -- we are constantly assessing this each and every day. we are shifting resources on the

northern border in southern border against those threats. the whole idea is our greatest capabilities against those greatest things. and you will recall that we had approximately 300 border patrol agents to cover about 4000 miles of border. that's a daunting task in many locations, and you have to control hundreds of miles. and we do the integrative border enforcement teams with state and local. so we use that as a multiplier. we leverage the information, we do innovative planning and execution. we have increased by a desirability to do the same things with any implementation in this bill. and for us to be able to respond to emerging threats in advance and our ability to do that on the northern borders is sometimes more critical. >> not to ignore the rest of

you, i am most familiar with the work that you do and obviously in north dakota, we have meetings where we share the canadian royal police coming down and we spent a lot of time talking about what you think the gaps are. you raise a very important issue, which is how we collaborate, how do we expand opportunities by including local and state and maybe other governments and police force and other government efforts in a collaboration so that we can let all of these resources. so i hope as you move forward with these plans, that we don't just look at it from the standpoint of high-tech technology. because we know that there are two ways that we can do this. one is from the sky and the other is on the ground and what is moving. so i'm very interested in finding out what the plans are

in relation to collaboration with local and state officials and law enforcement. >> i was recently in grand forks and got a briefing from the agency. i'm not an expert, but i would love to give you a briefing and a little bit more detail about the deployment strategies and methodologies in that area. >> yes, as we look at immigration reform, we always look to the south and i want to make sure that in that very important work that we do not forget that we pay attention to what is happening at the northern border. >> these officers that are specified in this bill as well as their administration, a member of them are deployed basically with the greatest need in terms of traffic. and i also have the opportunity here to talk about our partnership with canada.

you mention state and local, but we have an extraordinary partnership with canada and it has allowed for, a change and how we work with it. it's a 34-point plan that we are working to increase infrastructure and investments in joint operations and shared information that is allowing us with what they are doing. >> this very quickly, i am familiar with the border. i am familiar with the intent in the interest of law enforcement. again, we are very concerned in north dakota and all across the northern border. >> we work with our state and local partners and it's a critical part of our strategy. >> thank you so much.

>> we appreciate the service to the north. if you look at the membership of this committee, includes members senator baldwin from johnson and also this individual from new hampshire. it is all good to see you. >> mr. chairman, i am for immigration reform. i think we should embrace immigrants as assets, people who want to confine the american dream. if you were to come to a country, we can find a place for you. that being said, i am worried that the bill before us will not pass. it may not pass the senate or the house and i want to be constructive in making the bill strong enough with conservatives, myself included,

those who will vote for this. i think it is something that we should do. in this bill, i am worried. and this is similar to what senator johnson said. because you have to have a plan. if you don't have a plan, then you get a commission. ..

i asked remark is a period national security is a big part of the emigration of which occur through detail after detail and vote on amendments in our committee to add to the immigration bill. they say are doing is to kill the bill or slow it down. now, i want the bill to the patterson become passé. the stronger it is the better we have a chance to pass it. i'm concerned about two things. refugees and student visas. student visas had to do with 9/11 attackers. we have national security registration program. we had about 10 years. it's been defended in the longer this. we were absolute about it in

thousands of people were sent home who were cool, what doing the right thing, i'm disturbed the fbi investigated this young man and they didn't know he was saving the country. he was on a cia list. the billions of dollars are spent on homeland security was that the fbi would talk to the cia. for some reason it doesn't appear as if we knew he was leaving the country. he needed another interview. i don't fault them for not catching it the first time, but i was like someone to tell us how many people did russia refer to as? 50,000 people they wanted us to look at or attend. we should've spent a lot of time with those tight end mongering them just because russia thought they were a problem on not leaving. i believe the due process, but i still would do it. so i would have here he is. my purpose is to have specifically to senator carper

and coburn to have hearings to retake control of a part of the bill and did national security hearings have been amended to make it stronger, to look at how many refugees become price tags. it would bring in 200,000, rejuvenate 100,000. their fingerprints were on ied. they started buying missiles from the fbi and we caught them, but they got and even a fingerprint was on a bomb. too many people coming too quickly without enough review of any to target the review the countries to seem that seem to have hot as the people who hate us. we've got a commission. that's where i see it out with johnny stronger, i don't see the chairman consider to have hearings and we make a comment

if you can make a comment in that regard here >> the good intent you bring to these issues. first of all, on the sequential referral, senator coburn would like to see referral of the bill to our committee. my staff advised me today in order for a city that we have to ask unanimous consent. the department has made a decision that bill be referred to another committee for unanimous consent to be referred to a sequentially. we are going to explore that. yesterday we tried to get unanimous consent. just go to conference we had to pass a budget resolution to try to figure out a compromise and get her deficit in the right direction. couldn't get that one done. one person was able to object

and killed. we need to find for sure with the situation can do. on the second issue, with the respect to this tragedy, as much as we mourn the mayhem that such the last at 250 other people injured, a lot of good was done by the fbi, by the cia and homeland security to invest a bunch of questions page after page after page of questions that relate specifically to that. when we do, inappropriate time will figure out where to hold hearings, but the idea that they are is to figure out what we can do to figure out the situation on the northern border commits other border like austen, what

can we do to better leverage the assets we have. i like yours. and they want to work with you and other colleagues to figure out how we can have a constructive role we all want to play. a boat here at noon and talk with dr. coburn and i'll stay here and keep scrolling. come back and all votes in return. we'll have that opportunity and i would invite you to do that. let me start my psyche around acknowledging the job along our southern borders the northern borders to slow stop movement of people illegally, the movement of contraband easily. i was down there pretty good weather.

sometimes the temperature is 120 degrees. sometimes it rains, sometimes it's cold. this is not an easy show. they are doing work for us and people on the southern border are enthusiastic and are intent on doing it better. that's a big part of overdoing. i want to come back if i can to the issue of technology deployed along the borders to help a service multiplier. it's a borrowed system. we have a dozen or so

single-engine aircraft. i believe one of them is outfitted for a surveillance to do surveillance work. that's like my airplane going out there without the ability to detect visually submarines without the radar, without the intercepts. and i spoke were doing with the drones. they have been deployed in places like afghanistan, lighter than air assets. some can carry some, but some care. they can hog raisers were

surveillance we can elevate them or think there's something called atari system, which we have some of the elevated observation posts. not any one of these by itself is going to work anyway. were the highest risk is after those risks. secondly, the technology and the assets available to complement the ground forces to figure out which particular technology is most appropriate in a given area of a reporter. it ain't rocket science. in the past we have the resources. we're going to have the resources. providing those resources and making sure our input and the output of our appropriate led by senator landrieu to make sure

senator coats with a chair and ranking members of the perp relations subcommittee. the other thing i'm going to say and then ask a question. somehow we have to do a better job of conveying not just the folks in mexico to want to come to our country to work, but the people in salvador, honduras, guatemala and other countries because they're squeezing bubble, squeezing the ball and we see a lot of them heading south to making life in this country is mr. bell. the mexicans don't want them to stay in their country, they come through mexico across our borders and places to seek out good. we have to do a better job in those countries are people are still coming out. there's a good chance to get caught. if we catch you come in the experience is unpleasant and if you come back again, even less

if we catch you. we have to make sure employers know if you try to hire illegal aliens coming are doing it knowingly. we'll find you out and punish you and imprison you if it's a repeat occurrence. we need to do a better job of conveying to the folks of the risk they face, if they do there will be a pleasant experience. the risk of a shot, murdered, drowned, we've got to do a much better job. kind of a scared straight approach for those countries would have to be better put the way we do it. here's my question. chief fisher, right now what is our effectiveness rate and high risk borders that uris as defined by the bill, senator mccain and others. what is our effectiveness rate

and high risk border sectors defined by the bill? >> is approximately turning 80 and 85% commissary. >> just make it simple for people to understand, we're working for people to get through and what we need to make this work is the ability, almost like a quarterback coming out of the huddle and you see the whole field it is the ability of folks coming to our border and i must count them. both they and a good day 100 people are coming and we need to know not only how many are coming across our borders, we know how many will be turned back and that's not easy to do. we need to know how many we've apprehended. the rest knows there are ways. we need to measure better preteens. how many people try to get

across the border. two, how many people are turned back. the rest of care of itself. part of our challenge is to figure how to initiatives were trying to get across and those to turn back. the rest we can figure out. let me follow up on my question by asking how close you think we are to achieving persistence, surveillance and some of the sectors? >> along the southern border, take into consideration both the iphone 21st seven emissaries in the urban areas and the situational awareness, is going to take at least another year or two as we continue to mature in the systems they have upped amazing capability and continuing to see them leverage geospatial intelligence to understand how

that might help us in the situational awareness area. and if i could come i want to qualify my earlier statement in terms of trying to reconcile the u.s. the question in terms of the way the bill is identified and high-risk areas. one area in south texas specifically is not within the 85%. it sits in south texas, which takes in the area you saw in rio grande about a.d. i don't want to be misleading. >> let me go back to you for a minute. how do you come up with a denominator? he told us how you calculate the effectiveness. where is the character quality of the denominator? you don't have that, do you? >> every attempt at crossing in this country.

>> there for the denominator is meaningless if you don't have the numbers. the entries, which is the denominator is basic we apprehensions plus the tarmac plus the cutaways. in areas where we have dentist appointment in personality elegy, we have a better accounting of what the flow is at any given time. that's the ones you know. the apprehension, turn back some cutbacks. that has nothing to do with the ones you don't know. >> here's the point i want to make. if that legislation is going to pass him and his denominator has to be determined in finite terms with all ms really geospatial is going to help you, ray? and do you not agree you have a

constant lookout which are percentage is going to be. for 90% to mean something, that means the denominator has to mean something. it has to be real and it can't just be what you know. it has to include which you don't know in terms of crossings. >> i do understand your point. first of all, the denominator fluctuates on a daily basis depending upon the section of the border. >> you're missing my whole point. you don't know the denominator. for us and to the north -- we're going to determine the borders secure on a number you don't know. you're going to give us a number that the bottom number is you're not going to know it and that's a whole in terms of the

requirements of this bill and that's going to have to be addressed before the bill has to pass. >> senator, if i may, one of the things the bill intends to bill intends to do is put greater. we do have fidelity right now of the technology development and deployment envisioned by the bill will build us a greater capability for surveillance detection. >> remember the emotion on immigration has nothing to do with race. it has to do with the rule of law. it has nothing to do with race. it has to do with the rule of law. the fact is first of all, were to become up with 90% border control? where did that come from quite if 10% is not. >> one of the things i know secretary napolitano has said it

is important to not focus on one number. as a general this look at different crime rates or otherwise. in some sense it's like the economy. we don't use one number to measure how good our economy is. you look at consumer confidence, consumer spending, job rate, things like that. as we look at the borders, we should also be looking -- >> that's not what the american people are expecting. the path to citizenship is in this bill. and it's based on the fact the border is going to be controlled. as the things that's going to research the other areas. if in fact the american people can trust the borders control, no matter what to pass this bill. you have to help us figure out how to do that and i would disagree. if the final result of consumer confidence, employment,

investment, everything else. that's the ultimate number. the ultimate number is how do you reach -- first of all, why is 90% effect of control of the border? at victory somebody to explain why 90% as effective control of the border. number two is how are you going to come up with an effective denominator because you're not going to sell the vast majority of americans on immigration reform until you sell them the confidence we have it under control and the number dysentery and if it does vary the number is an actual number, e-mail member, not a testament. >> i'll take a stab at your two questions. but 90% when i was with the staff, developing an implementation of the strategy we are setting strategic object is. one of the measures against the objectives is simply being able

to protect this country as he seated at her in excess of 90%. we were setting a strategic role to take the capabilities of the last few years and optimize back and how we measure that? that's an ongoing affair for the last three years. with a whole host of other measures we look at to assess risk, it's not just 90%. 90% with a minimum. this staff is the question, why sit at her in excess of 90%? basically you set a goal. anything less than at a minimum 80% would be untenable in terms of a goal. >> why 90%? why not 98%? here's my point. before if were going to get immigration reform through the house, we have to do a whole lot

more on the definition of the control border and that is in this bill. we're not going to get it. you're not going how that goes for it. so if in fact we want this to happen, we have to start addressing this now. you can't have any false observations on this. the political reality is american people want to know 90% is controlled, then it's 10% is sent. thus the first thing that goes through most oklahomans. so why is 90% the number? the fact is vital we have a secure border from what is a secure border and how do you measure that? what does it mean? how do we demonstrate that? where are the metrics that show that? i won't spend anymore time on

it. he said in your opening statement and i don't think you meant this, but you said they screen all cargo. did she mean to say we screen all cargo? >> yes, senator. screening has to do take a look at all cargo in the united states. we evaluate the risk and make a judgment what is the next step. the terminology has to do with the cargo. >> is very different because they need to know all cargo. >> would make a judgment about whether should be scanned and that is richer calling screening. there's no assurance they are.

it's assurance of the judgment of whether or not the cargo should have been scanned and investigated more. i don't want the american people , working with her in terms of screening cargo and port security related to that. i understood what she meant, but the american people won't. >> we do have a race-based approach where we made sure embury triaged that to say what do we need to inspect an open and do that with all the cargo in the united states. another point on that.

one of the saints earlier today after years of work and investments on border security we do have financier immigration flow which people could look at them one of the things that is important was a lot of things are important in border security, whether it's the border crime rate, seizures at the border, immigration flows. i will work with you because it is important. >> they are all better and i congratulate you because agencies have done a much better job. we have better numbers than ever before. the question is whether it's adequate. if we had 98% control in the 2% control, we wouldn't think that was control. it's not just a number. it is who is in the number that cutaway that we didn't catch

that could cause us harm. you help us in the legislative process to build that insurance in their. >> one other question. when somebody leaves the country on a visa, pinged back to the list, correct? everybody leaving this country. so why is the visa so problematic in terms of cost that we were already having this in a central computer, explain the technological problems that cause problems in your opening statement because i don't get it. if were capturing the data, but just not using it on the exit visa program, why not quick >> appreciate the opportunity to

elaborate on that. congressional requirement post 9/11 asked for a biologically-based system for fingerprints or scanner things like that is wisconsin the ability to deploy that niu to put the labor cost is three to $3 billion cost come from. we have to have something in place and they can't wait for the cost to go down although we should continue to research that we are. says she has directed us to do an electronic system based on the biographical information. we take information from your passport. it goes into the database and we depart the country, that is matched. a match indicates someone has left. a non-match pass the duration is

a potential overstay we have to look into that. up until a couple years ago, the systems that do all that come in many across the department look at resolving whether somebody is in effect in overstay was all done manually and we have automated the process, linked at the databases for vetting of public safety into a place right now as of april of this year, were near real-time now we are sending on a daily basis for action to folks who have overstayed. so that's a much more cost effective way of doing it and is electronically based and will be improving the next year. >> senator johnson. >> thank you, senator coburn. first of all, i truly want to

thank you for your service. i realize these are enormous challenges come extremely difficult. i also agree with senator paul the purpose here is we need to fix our legal immigration system and solve this problem. certainly as i talked to members of the public, there's a high degree of skepticism about securing the border. i'm concerned about this bill was more focused a lot of process on who's going to certify whether it's passing the bill that secures the border. i kind of like to go back to where he started by questioning the terms of the history of securing the border. we've been trying to do this for 30, 40 years. we honestly haven't succeeded. not because we haven't tried, but why can't we simply not put the resources towards that? too big a problem will never be

able to solve? what are the prospect of being able to secure the border the next five or 10 years? >> thank you, senator. and thank you for your support of this legislation and the reform that will go forward. one of the things this bill does, which hasn't been done in 30 years as it takes a comprehensive approach. you have to address a number of things broken in the system and you can't just address one of them. to begin with, you have a magnet of jobs in the u.s. economy that attracts individuals. these are jobs in effect off the books because illegitimate travelers come to the united states who are not lawfully

present can go to businesses given the system by hiring people illegally present. >> let me just because part of the concern -- i totally agree with you. you've got the chart trafficking. is god the worker is required. does this bill even come close to finding enough temporary work visas to fulfill that demand? >> there's a number of different ways. one is to streamline our visa opportunities for individuals to come, whether it's agricultural, guestworkers, high-tech employment or otherwise. that is one way of satisfying. the other way is to take away the demand signals by saying it's illegal to do that and having every business be required to do it either by

check or the lawful presence of the united states. if you're trying to get a job come you got to make sure you're lawfully present. >> what happens when people verify employment and businesses still can't fill positions? what happens at that point with this law? >> when businesses can't fill positions -- >> by the late, that is a common thread. they simply cannot fill good paying jobs, even with high levels of unemployment. >> these are levels set in law. this is a continuous debate and discussion as businesses continue to compete for the best labor they can get. one of the things who need to continue to do is invest in are on resources, rudd labor at