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send us an e-mail at booktv/c-span.org. you are watching booktv on c-span2. here is our prime time lineup for tonight. next nancy rubin stuart describes the lives of brides "defiant brides." at 10:00 p.m. eastern, olympia snowe joins us. we conclude tonight's programming at 11:00 p.m. eastern with donald rumsfeld presenting the lessons he's learned over the course of his career. visit booktv.org for more on this weekend's booktv schedule. booktv continues with a mechanic sincerity --

nancy rubin stuart. peggy ship general henry knox. this is a little under an hour. it's a pleasure to be here in this historic place, and well, i guess the ghost of history are here visiting us tonight. people often ask -- can you hear me now? louder? okay. we are still not projecting. [laughter] people often ask me how it is i wrote an 80,000-word book. iesmed going give you -- i'm going to give you two words why. one is curiosity, and the other is coincidence. curiosity because i knew from the earlier book that there were two and a half million people who were alive during the american revolution.

now, i'm sure you can name at least five maybe ten people men who were involved in it. significant figures in the revolution. can we try? >> george washington. >> john adams. >> hamilton. franklin, hancock, both adams, john and sam. [inaudible] daniel morgan. [inaudible] i'm sorry? heim solomon. robert morris. nathaniel greene. william dun lap. we can go on and on. now, how many women can you name who were important figures in -- [inaudible] [laughter] two. [inaudible] wait, wait, wait! abigail adams, martha

washington, betsy ross. martha washington, six. we're not going to get up to ten, are we? well, -- [inaudible] [laughter] [applause] that's another issue! [laughter] she would get an very interesting memoir. however, the point is there were a million women, at least, who were witnesses or involved in the american revolution, but we don't know that much about them. the accounts we have from those who are left and the perfect example among others are very scant. there's only a few hints. we know, for instance, there were women spies. we get a few sentences about that here and there. we know women during the lexington when the british were marching up. we know american patriot women

threw hot oil on them. we only have scraps. aside from the women you mentioned, this was a frustration to me, a real frustration. so i was curious. i said there have to be more accounts. that's how i began writing the book. and the other, of course, this is intriguing which is consequences dent. and consequent there were two women five years apart who both were -- if -- certainly neutralist in the. and both defied their parents and married the radical. when i discovered the women ifers off and running. i said i have to follow the book. without further ado, it became "defiant brides; the untold story of two revolutionary women

and the men they marry." since you're knowledgeable i'm not going to dwell. the first was the boston lucy. who was educate. in 1776 she married henry knox. the second was peggy shippen. she married benedict arnold. their lives were forever changed as a result of marriages. one bride became a patriot. the other bride became a spy. since you're all knowledgeable, obviously, about the american revolution, i'm not going to bore you by going through it. briefly, you know in the 1760s there were rumblings of revolution, not necessarily we were looking for independence, but rather that we wanted things to get better between the american and the british. and of course, the same exact among them -- being very important and the others certainly that the towns and

revenue act was another. well, they all were inflammatory. and of course, the boston mas consider -- massacre in 1770 was another flush point. the sons of liberty who were collecting and gathering and disappearing and the idea of protest dies down when it happened. there was a resurgence of energy and people. we started talking about independence. again, i'm not going to go through the list here, as you know, the various acts -- particularly the boston tea party and then some of the other intolerable acts that followed. this was it. we were definitely talking about revolution at that point. boston, at the time, was the wealthiest and most -- well, the busiest port in the colonies, and probably no coincidence that's where the cradle of

revolution began. of course, we have the boston tea party here. here is an engraving of the patriots in the era dumping the tea off to the boston harbor, and over here one of the many political cartoons. we didn't have video then, but anyway, this one illustrates the savage of the americans being force -- i guess poured the teas being poured down the throat by the british. now we don't have psychologists then, and but we -- we didn't have photographs, but we did have some terrific portrait artists who were great psychologists. this is lucy's father. he was the secretary of massachusetts and obviously crown plointed affluent position. what do you think about him from the portrait? [inaudible] stern, yes, and rather -- to say the least he was not tolerant of

anything that had to do with radical patriots. her mother -- we know more about her father than her mother. her father was -- some of you may know waldo county. that's part of that huge track that lucy's mother had. she was to be one of the heir to it. this is henry knox. i think he was over six feet three. he was a -- his father was a ship master but died andless henry -- an orphan at the age of twelve. dropout of boston school. he becomes, of course, a printer on his own, and he opens what is called the "new london bookstore "it became a fashionable salmon

imported books from great britain, well, britain at the time. and all the young men and women would con including john adams. lucy was 16, and she happened to see henry parading with the militia. she fell madly in love with him. it didn't go well over with her parents. henry not only being poor and middle class, but a radical patriot. so they told her, if you married him, you will always be poor, and lucy didn't care. now think about lucy, lucy is a bit of a combination of rose o'donnell, margaret thatcher all rolled in to one. she's brainy, bookish, and

extremely strong minded. she fell madly in love with henry and he with her. and the lovely letters between them. they married on june 16, 1774, in king's chape l. this is a early picture of king's chapel. sorry, 1764 -- sorry i'm still wrong. 1776. here is a modern picture. you have been to boston, you can see king's chape chapel there. of course lexington broke out a few months later. at that point, the relationship between the fluckers and lucy and henry destroyed completely. it continued in the spring. to make matters worse, the general thomas, was a good friend of lucy's father, he thought that henry, being brainy and young and energetic, and quite intelligence, color, he

would make a terrific british soldier. he forbid henry to leave boston, of course at that time occupied. and henry and lucy didn't like that. so they -- so goes the story lucy quilted his sword in to her cape, and they got on a horse and escaped from boston to the army camp, washington's camp in cam cambridge. lucy ended up in a safe house. further out in the western part of the state. henry joined the army. henry, as i say, had the wonderful books in the bookstore on weapons and everything. he didn't have them with him. he being an ingenious fellow and almost a photographic memory.

-- washington became impressed with this, and he wrote i think a lovely letter from henry bragging about how washington and the other generals were impressed. and at age 26, he appoints henry to colonel in the army. henry goes on to become major general, and close friend, -- of course invited to dinner in cambridge at the house, and eventually lucy, who is quite pregnant by now, is also invited to meet the newly arrived martha washington. they become lifelong friends. here is a much later picture of henry, i think it's rather flattering. it's 1803. it's rather flattering, i think. okay -- it's probably a little diminished. [laughter] we have the cannon here, of course, because being chief of artillery he was in charge of all the gunnery and the

strategic use of those. quite clever when you read that. some of you may be familiar with military history. he eventually weighs 290 pounds, and lucy is not far behind. [laughter] but they have this wonderful relationship, this love affair that goes on and on. there are 8,500 -- this is approximate, but close digitized letters of henry involving military. but also many that are related to lucy. they are beautiful love letters between them. and she writes to him too, they are absolutely passionate couples with each other. all throughout their lives. well, washington had a little chore in mind for henry. he said, i think you need to go to lake channel channel plain and pick up guns and cannons. and you know the story, we all -- the audience knows the

story. certainly everybody had to learn in the high school history class about how henry went up and how he -- first it was snow then mud then they broke through some of the thin ice and got more snow, more ice and able to get the oxen teams and bring down the 43 cannon and heavy guns to cambridge. this is probably a more modern rendition and these are more modern pictures. lucy was not happy. lucy is a drama queen. her parents did abandon her when -- soon after this. she's not happy. her parents are not writing to her in the safe house, even though she's writing to them. she's all alone. she's pregnant. she doesn't know whether henry is going survive going to the northern region of new york state. she doesn't know if he was going to be attacked by indian or british soldier, or disease.

she writes and hysterical. he writes back assuring he's going to be okay. he thought it would take three weeks. it takes 58 days. she's quite pregnant. okay. she's not happy. these are just example of some of the letters, i think, they are just beautiful. she writes that she's -- he's always in her thoughts, image deeply imprinted on my heart. this is one moment she has contemporary. she said he's a man whom of love too much my own peace. henry, on his side, orphaning -- of course continues. he's a voracious letter writer. the signature conflict he wants to render his devoted country every service in his power. the only objection that the duties separate me from the dear object of my earthly happiness. he calls her the charmer of his

soul. they are just beautiful letters. anyway he rushes. and those guns help door chester for for the evacuation of the british. lucy has her baby. she's happy. henry is a hero. the only problem is all they are all leaving boston. many are fleeing on ship either to britain or canada. among them are her parents. say that never write to her goodbye. they just leave. she never sees them again. now, while henry is in just a slight deviation, it relates dramatically to the story. while henry is gone, well, of course the conditions are pretty rough. he's lodged in a little, little cottage with a captured british prisoner. this is john andre.

he's handsome, he's a fell fell fighter. even though they are on opposite sides of the political conflict, the two of them, hen renner -- henry and john spend the night talking. it comes back later on. i i think you know about the man. benedict was a traitor. he he made a lot of money, and he was handsome, deb near, charming, and incredibly brave warrior. he was involved in montreal and quebec, during the battle, which i don't have, his left leg was severely injured. and after wards, if you know any military history about value corp. island, it's brilliant what he did to save not only his soldiers but also coming down and taking part of new york.

it was very important. later on he also involves in the battle of richfield and czar foe georgia. he was the hero of it. the same leg is so severely injured that this shattered, so severely injured the doctors want to amputate it. around says no, it's been five months in an upstate military hospital, his leg is in a boxy contraption, and then his health is kind of ruined. it takes him a long time, actually a couple of years, to fully i regain his staple ma. he's hobbling around. one leg is shorter than the other. this is benedict arnold, and he

-- well, it's a funny thing. he happens to know no , . -- knox. when he comes to boston, two years in a row, he comes to visit boston and he falls in love with another boston gal, and lucy being the social elitist becomes a match maker or the go-between the. they know each other. let's slash forward here and talk about the end of valley force. -- forge. lucy keeps pining to be with henry. he keeps writing letters. he refuses. she was with him in new york when the british invaded it was a fiasco for her. henry will not let her come. finally at the ends of the awful winter, whether the roads have cleared, when the reinforcement are there, when the british are well -- they are still in philadelphia, but the american army is ready for conflict.

he said, all right, you can come if you can find a way. as it happens, benedict arnold can't provide a horse. but washington wants to see him. he's still -- benedict arnold is still washington's favorite fighting general. don't forget benedict arnold was known as the hero. if you have been to the valley field. you know it's a section of it. and also known the eagle of saratoga. he's revered by his men. he's incredibly brave. he's had them do things other sections in the army can't. he also has supported, paid for ammunition, clothed his men on all of these battles i mentioned. and congress, gets gets what? they haven't paid him back. he's lost a lot of money and a lot of fortune. his health is kind of ruin, and he doesn't think washington has stood up for him. when he finally made a major general, it's long after younger

men, with not as much distinguished service made general. and not publicly announced. he thinks -- he's pretty upset with washington. he's upset with congress. he's not sure that things are so good with the revolutionary idea. by the time he gets to valley forge -- he brings lucy in a stage coach. there's a wonderful comment who looks at sort of reunion of lucy and henry and says, it's a perfectly wonderful married couple. well, in philadelphia, meanwhile, the british occupied and andre has been set free, he's very involved in social events, you know, philadelphia is now a winter camp. a playground for the british. they occupied for nine months. , and he organizes and helps the others organize balls and gala and hunts and gaming things and

of course, also other less -- shall we say proper things. it's become a playground for the british. there are loads and loads of imported goods in philadelphia, and it's become a miniature london. the quakers of philadelphia, those patriots are horrified at the behavior of the men who are sort on winter recreation break, and just absolutely horrified. but -- so it goes. now the last of the big events there, before the british leave in that same year while lucy and benedict arnold have arrived at valley forge is -- [inaudible] this is a grand event to celebrate, well, to celebrate the departure of the general. here is andre. whoops, let's go back.

here a view of peggy with the hair. if you read the literature it was fashionable women had eight foot-times hairdo. other things in there besides hair. peggy is the daughter of a very well-known judge. judge edward shippen. if you come from the area, oar you know the pennsylvania area around philadelphia, the shippen is a community, and probably know the shippen berg community college. the shippens had already prominent in law and politics in business in philadelphia. peggy is daddy's girl. she's not only very beautiful, the british soldiers made much of her. she's 16, 17, and they have taken her to balls, they have

called her the handsomest women in america. they piped her -- she's kind of doubt bid this. she's 16 or 17 and she's loving it. then the british leave and she's not looking forward to the dull, dour, poor patriot guys who are going to come in. was she a sweet heart of an andre? the historians asked that a lot. it turns out, yes, she has a lock of his hair. she preserves it in a gold pendent. his real girlfriend was a friend of hers. he can escort with to balls and gala. they were with friends and that was their social circle. they attended many balls together. now, as i said, the british do leave, evacuate philadelphia, and of course, the patriots come back in. we've been talking about poor trades. here is peggy's father, judge

edward shinnen, i wonder what you get from the portrait about the man. some people think he's cagey. history shows that's what he was. he played both sides. when the patriots were there first. he wanted to protect his position as the judge. when the british came in, he entertained them in the drawing room and said you never know which side going to win. and he kind of had to look out for himself. when the patriots came back in after wards -- the historians call a neutralist. he's not alone. many people, 30% of at least america were not sure the revolution was a good idea. he was pretty cagey. and peggy's mother i don't know a lot about her. it was a love affair. she was a daughter of -- i don't know a lot. not a lot from peggy about her mother. i know, she loved her mother.

peggy was daddy's little girl. she was pretty, brainy, sensible, loves clothes like any, i guess, well born young woman would in a social world. she was another i think he's a combination of hillary clinton or grace kelly or -- i see her as somebody wrapped up. when she didn't get her way as a child she had a great technique. she would scream, yell, and have tantrum. she would take to her bed, stop eating, and her health would give in. and the family would give in. around who becomes the -- he can't ride a horse. he can't go in to battle.

poor philadelphia first the patriot then the british for the nine months then the patriots. the stir was in turmoil. there were many buildings ruined. food was not in great supply. some of the roads had been destroyed and the bridges. things were pretty chaotic. they needed a strong peace keeper, and arnold thought it was great for him. he couldn't be in the field. he would collect, still, his small salary in the army. , by theby the way, give off the english goods and use some of the federal property and reclaim some of the money that congress never quite paid him back for. peggy and he meet socially. he lives in "the master" mansion. he rides a stagecoach.

he entertains -- they all swoon over him. he's a great military hero; however, there are rumblings that perhaps he's doing is not exactly honest. nevertheless, peggy wants to marry him. he proposed to her, and shippen has a few qualms. he's not -- not so much about -- bullies now but rather from rumors about what he did back in new haven. it was not, perhaps, the person of the highest character. despite the brilliance as a military commander. so peggy; however, insists that once again, there are stories if she didn't marry him, a relative writes this later, she would have fallen in to a quote, dancing fury.

she marries him, in 1779, april, and but there's a cloud hanging over the marriage. that is because now the patriots have gotten wind of the fact that he has not been dealing exactly fairly with the american government, and the goods and basically he's corrupt. so arnold is very charming, and very deb -- if you don't believe i'm honest. let me have a trial. court-martial, my own fears. he knows. so the trial is hanging over them as they get married. but the family cannot believe that the wonderful military hero hat done anything wrong. they basically the shippens close rehabbing around him at the time. i love the quote. i think it's telling her cousin, peggy's cousin, writes what demon has possessed the people with regard to general arnold.

he's certainly much abused, ungrateful monsters to attack a character who has been looked up to. well, let's think about spy craft. spy craft is alive and well at that time. there were over 500 spies. both had many active spies. most were men. some were women. they were advanced. there a number of technique. one was a decipher. you had a letter with numbers in. you look in the black stone law book and indicate here, second line so many letters over, and get the word and eventually paste it together and get a message. another one, of course,

different things. and finally there was invisible ink, which i can't illustrate here. sorry. [laughter] but if you held a flame over the letters, the invisible ink message would come over. and there would be -- or you can dip it in acid would be an a and the invisible ink would come up. there was another method too, it was -- well, you might say the old lady is waiting for you. meaning some sort of another signal. there was that also. there were a lot of different sophisticates messages. they were spies and double agents. now there are several views of peggy in history that come down to it. some are novels, some are non-fiction books. the most common one is she was a george gorgeous sexual siren. he was madly in love with her. he erupted with b

one month after their married is communicating to a spy with the british in new york. that's one view. the other view is a poor innocent thing. she's 18. she doesn't know any better. the man is twenty years older than she is. she is basically totally innocent of the betrayal that he has done not only to america but her. the truth is somewhere beyond that. we'll get to that in a moment. meanwhile, timeline, i'm looking in the book at one woman who marries -- they both marry radical patriot. at the same time we have lucy following henry to the army camp of the revolution. one of the camps -- and henry

had a dream of the military college he being brilliant about artillery. he felt the soldiers weren't well trained. he created a military college. let me go back to that. and took them to new jersey. it was the first military college. -- what happens later in west point. and this is a rendition of what that looked like. there was a few -- there are barracks and a training grounds there. and i was just here, which is where lucy and henry lived, it looks -- it is a very small cottage. they rented if from, i guess, maybe he donated it. he was obviously a patriot to lucy and henry. lucy is pregnant again with a child. lucy, indeed, comes pregnant

just about every year as she follows henry. here she has her second chielgd, julia. she looks pretty well, well within a month or so really she's off to nearby meadow brooke army camp and watching -- well, a major military displace in art of the french minister. she comes back to the house and within a weak she has hepatitis. and the baby gets hepatitis, and the baby dies. and lucy go on to have all together she has thirteen children. [inaudible] no. ultimately only three survive to adulthood. some die from accidents. symptom some die from disease. some die as little children. a number die as babies. some die in adolescence. it's a woman who is abandoned by her original biological family.

she only has henry. she wants to replace that family with a large family of their children. it's pretty tragic. now 1780, arnold is recovered. his leg recovered. washington wants him in the field, he wants him to take over the left leg of the army. arnold has been in touch with the british. in fact, he has already given some hints, more than hints, some tips to the british. because before 1780 just before that, the tips he gave resulted in the conflict by the british with charles stone. but he's got a problem. they don't want to give him the money. he wants 20,000 pounds new. it's well more than in a million dollars in today's money. the british tbornld he's -- world if he's a double agent. they are not sure.

the general andre is not sure. there's all kinds of letter it is a go back and forth. the argument goes back and forth about the money. now one of the people who passes the papers is none other than peggy. it's proved later in history. finally proved in the early 20th century, but peggy is helped with passing those letters. and perhaps more. you may not know all of what she did. anyway, what their plan is that if he would be appointed, and washington is -- washington cannot understand why he would want to be commander of west point. it's a strategic, obviously today. westpoint was a strategic fort on the hudson. the forts around it not in great shape. it's strategic at the 90-degree angle from the hudson and the turn. it the british can capture that. they can separate the patriot of new england and those in the

south. many of the munition -- as well as the supply routes and many of the row cross-suits as well. so -- recruits as well. it's important it be protected. washington later calls west point the key toot country. -- to the country. but anyway, arnold complains that he does not want to go in the field. every time it's mentioned, he starts hobbling a little more more. we read about it a lot. washington finally gives in and appoint him. arbled -- arnold is delighted. peggy will live in a house with him a month after she arrives, actually a few weeks. he'll meet with andre on the hudson. send the important papers and maps and provide all the information so the british can conquer america quickly, end the war, this is arnold's -- and a

great power of britain. and peggy and he will gracefully exit with the british, it british on the hudson on the ship and go to new york and collect their 20 sthowrks -- ,000 pounds and be made a general in the british army. all will be well. things don't quite go that way. and you may know the story, and i want to leave time for questions here, let me just say that there are a series of coincidences and unlucky breaks and lucky breaks, in some cases in which, yes, andre and arnold meet, but it gets to be toward dawn on the shore of the hudson, and some other things happen. andre has no choice but to go with arnold. before he went, clinton said to him, there are three things you have to avoid. one, you will not get in to dice

guise. number two, you will not go in to enemy territory. number three, you will not collect any incriminating papers. it doesn't work out that way. andre fiends finds himself in arnold's hand. captive, essentially. it's almost dawn. he has to go to the enemy territory. where he's hidden for awhile. he has to change out of his british uniform in to disguise, clothes, and ultimately arnold gives him two to an assistant and said deliver him back to the british. not before i give you crucial papers that show the map of west point, give you all the details about the army, about everything and so on.

so just before the assistant takes him toward the water where it's now safe british territory in westchester county, near territown, the assistant said you're okay? and andre -- he's fine. they say goodbye to each other. andre is in disguise. andre has treason papers in his boots. and just as he crosses in to territown by himself on the horse, he's captured by three men. he's ultimately brought, of course, to some of the military headquarter. arnold is, of course, back at the home in west point waiting for washington to arrive at west point. all he thinks is well. nobody could even dream that arnold would have been a traitor, so one of the military officers, who has andre in

captivity, sent arnold saying we have a spy here. that's all arnold needs. andre give, of course, captured as a common spy. andre, this is a picture of him the night before his death. his own rendition -- this is a poor but the best i could do from the engraving of him. when he's hung. i'm going come back to that in a moment. arnold, mean while, receives the letter about an hour or two before washington was to arrive at his home. the people who are already there are hamilton and knox and lafayette. and washington said, you might as well go ahead. you are all in love with peggy shippen and you want to have breakfast with her. she's upstair and arnold dashes upstairs when he receives the

letter about andre and said we've been found out. i have to leave. he escapes, having his men at gunpoint row him to the hudson. one historian said it was one vulture meeting another. [laughter] andre, as i say, is ultimately hung in 1780. peggy is in the house. she's upstairs. i guess we would call her today, a person of interest. she has to think fast. and what can she do? she's 20 today. she's has an infant son with her. she can only do one thing. to pretended, of course, she's completely innocent. she must go insane from the

shock of this betrayal. and it's the performance of her life. for two days she yells and screams and rips her hair and takes off some of her clothes and pretended she can't see anything. people nearby and she has -- and the sanity attack and arnold is gone. washington is completely convinced she's gone insane from the shock of the betrayal, hamilton writes to his fiancè about poor peggy. knox is taken in and so is lafayette. you can read the document. it's a performance of a lifetime . and so peggy is allowed to back by a stagecoach to her parents in philadelphia with the baby. on foot by now escaped to new york city.

but peggy gets there, her parents, of course, and they spend -- they spend the next 100 years defending her innocence. it goes on. pennsylvania magazine history in biography for 100 years you can read them. they start in 1890, '98, 1900, and so on about her innocence. they proclaim this. but the patriots do not agree. the patriots find that at least one letter that she has written to andre, which is a social letter but probably sort of in code. they tell her father she is to be exiled. her father takes her to the shore of the hudson with her baby and watch her sail to new york city to be reunited with benedict arnold. , by theby the way, it is just around the time she arrived in philadelphia that she hears

about andre being hanged. i will also mention to you that clinton, of course, who loved andre wouldn't -- and would love to exchange talk about about exchanging arnold for ann andre; right? he can't if he gives arnold back, what will happen to the other spies? they will never want to work for him. and so andre is hung. even just a few of the political cartoons. you'll see this one with the arnold and the devil and the pot of gold. and another person helping, because it was known he loved money and he's greedy. this is an actually engraving on many of the many floats that went by. we have arnold here, two-faced. with a moneybag and the devil.

and this dummy is burned. there were riots all over the country. who knew what else he had already told the british? -- but, you know, when was it going? so the gravestone in arnold's hometown are thrown over and desecrated from his father and brother and other things. arnold's name is stricken from military records. if you go back to the library of congress, you'll not find his name. even in saratoga there was nothing. i think in the late 19th century who a statute of a soldier who helped saratoga win. that's it. so he's stricken forever from the records that he actually ever existed.

these are two picture. this is a little part on the front of the book. my book. and this is peggy, a little later in life in england and her fun. she has five surviving children. this is her son. we don't have, to my i dismay, a lot of images of lucy inspect is the only one we have. later her husband becomes secretary at war and secretary of the war. lucy loves fashion later, and well, this is one silhouette of her. and they try to paint paint her as she didn't like it or it didn't come out well. i'm not sure. then a lot of comments about lucy in history. one i love is that she was

concentric and eccentric in character. [laughter] well, just to round it off in american history, these women they are really footnotes to history. they werens withs when you read the correspondence you have life during the revolution was like on the other side of the battle field. some poem asked me where i did my research. these are the major places. i was grate toflt new -- grateful to the new york historical society. they digitized, as i say, 8,500 plus letters. i didn't have to read them on microfilm in 18th century handwriting. it would have taken me many lifetimes. and many other places of interest. one of them, of course, was also the general knox museum, which is the late -- later home of the

knox's in maine. so that is -- i wanted to see what would happen with the evolution of the women. not just what happened during the revolution, but how they matured from the sweet-faced passion belie devoted wives, which they were, to mature women and wives. what they learned, and what they tolerated, and where those marriages took them. and i just want to leave you with one comment, and that is i love the comment from peggy shippen-arnold toward the end of her life. she writes to her sister and said marriage is but a lottery. [laughter] thank you very much. [applause] [applause] if you have any question, i'll try to answer them. i can't promise.

yes? >> did they have a -- [inaudible] both women outlive their husband. lucy outlived her husband -- he died in -- knox died in 1806. lucy lived to 1824. she was so devoted to her, her whole life and everything were encapsulated around him. it's sad what happens to her. peggy also outlives her husband. she dies in 1804, he dies in 1800. peggy is determined to preserve his name. she's a mother of five of his children, and she's determined to restore his character. the british don't like people without good character. he never did make out too well in britain and other escapades. peggy -- it was a great general like knox. they were lousy businessmen. so she value value lently spends

the next four years of his life paying off his debt. auctioning off the material, living in a smaller house, to restore his name. she dies unfortunately of cancer. any other questions? yes, sir. >> how does arnold afford to buy -- [inaudible conversations] >> how did he buy? we don't know it exactly. there were a lot of things about arnold's finances we don't know. maybe he borrowed money. he was asking the french minister for loans. he sold a lot of things to buy mount pleasant. it was a gift to peggy because judgeshippen didn't think he was wealthy enough. what happened to him happened to his daughter. it was kind of a security. they never live there had. it was in fair month park, now in philadelphia. it was a rental property. that's the best i can give you

on that. any other questions? >> was john -- [inaudible] >> john jay does enter. there are comments from john jay. he's upset about peggy. he feels sorry for her. especially when the patriots say she has to leave philadelphia. yes. i don't -- i didn't go in to more on that. i have a lot of -- a lot of issues to squeeze in to 80,000 words. thank you -- yes? [inaudible] [inaudible] >> umm, i don't know. we know that in the early 20th century, it was then that one of clinton's notes was published and brought to the country, which it was learned that the queen charlotte gave peggy 500 pounds a year for her quotes,

service to the crown, end quote. that sort of settled the question of how innocent peggy really was. [laughter] washington is amazed at the letter that -- i won't bore you, the letters that arnold writes saying to the american come join the british, and come with us. he just can't believe the arrogance of him. it was a wonderful quote about that. yes, sir? >> -- [inaudible] quality to peggy -- [inaudible] [laughter] >> no, and that's so intriguing about her. the family burned -- it was very concerned about her reputation. the family burned all her letters from 1783 to childhood on. so we don't get her voice until after that. you get little clips until a little later around 1780, 1790.

then the voice emerges. as i said, one of the people to compare it to is hillary clinton. he's brilliant, she's escaped stooped. she not that arnold was not practical. she is the brains. she's the caretaker, and not lady macbeth. i don't think she had -- life. let's put it that way. yes? >> but you almost looked in to -- [inaudible] the arnold's go back to, as i said, he never really gets on as well. he is a general. and -- against his own countrymen during the revolution. but he never gets along too well in england. even though she does. one quote about her from a society -- there was a peggy is a charming woman but if her husband were dead. [laughter] but they do go to new brunswick

for awhile. and -- you have to read the book to find out more. [laughter] i think we are almost out of time. >> thank you very much. [applause] for more information, visit the author's website. nancyrubinstewart.com. you are watching booktv. three days of authors and booking this memorial day weekend on c-span2. here are so. -- some programs.

you with watch these programs and more on booktv. for a complete list visit booktv.org. here are some of the latest headlines surrounding the publishing industry this past week. they agreed to a $75 million settlement in a antitrust e-book pricing suit. last year the department of justice proceeded with lawsuits against them and five major publishers for engaging in what they believe to be price fixing between the companies. ..

>> representative gregg walls. >> i just finished victory lap

and i do a little political stuff on the side and i talked about how the world of campaigns has changed. i'm hoping this summer to get to the biography on jefferson which i have on my pile and then i have a new one on roosevelt, teddy roosevelt. i m. a big fan of t.r. roosevelt and the reform movement and his energy and his style and also i have got one that deals i think mainly with this time down in south america so it should be interesting. >> let us know what you are reading this summer. tweet us at booktv. posted on our facebook page or send us an e-mail at booktv@c-span.org.