>> if you are a deconstruction as to only other deconstruction is like what you are doing. >>host: it doesn't matter about popular opinion? >>guest: note. >>host: when not? >>guest: because the whole career and self-esteem comes from their peers. so it doesn't matter actually they pride to be out of step. >>host: are you an intellectual? >>guest: i suppose you would have to say that. my work and is with ideas and people like them or don't like them that is the way it is. >>host: you talk about intellectual clustering together. what do you mean? >>guest: someone once called the third independent mind and they pretty much believe the same thing and they may change as a

group, for example, during the first world war intellectuals on the left left, after they saw the carnage they all became a pacifist again as a herd right after words and remained so. >> how do intellectuals' cluster? >> early in the 20th century they all clustered behind the belief that genes determine everything. race were it -- some races were inferior in the others were superior so those on one of the founders of the the left john maynard keynes eugenics society, many of distinguished intellectuals of that era were absolutely dogmatic. then by the end of the century they flung to the other end of the spectrum as a group and anyone who dared to disagree was disregarded

-- regarded as a racist. >>host: where are intellectuals regarded today, dr. sowell? >>guest: still clustered at the end that all differences between groups are presumptively do by others and they are impervious. for example, the housing situation, when they discovered they were turned down at a higher rate than whites come in the media decided that if you look at the same data of black and whites it undermines that completely. for example,, when blacks were turned down at a rate nearly double of whites, at the very cyme time lights were turned down double of

asian-americans. moreover the black on the banks turned down a blacks at a higher rate than the white owned banks. you find it hard to reconcile with what they believed but there is a tendency among intellectuals that hold the preconception and when they find the numbers that fit the preconception they don't go any further. they have no reason to look up the data for the asian americans that undermines their argument. >>host: you talk about the emotion and how you get rid of that factor or can you? >> i as a practical matter matter, one of the things i have noticed that many countries around the world, people of different race get along together and live as neighbors for decades or generations and

yet when the right demagogue comes along it can turn them against each other to be of each other's throats and this has happened in india, sri lanka, nigeria, the whole list and so that it is not a wholly spontaneous thing. there was a musical called south pacific one of the less memorable song said you have to be forced to hate but intellectuals have taught those to hate those that are better off than themselves. >>host: who are some of the demagogues? >>guest: they are different in different countries. sri lanka had one that was the biggest example it was held up of a model of a country where people of different races got along. they did. the educated members of the two different groups they lived in the same

neighborhood, different religions, each would attend the holidays services the others from the house of worship and that was fine until they decided he wanted to be prime minister then they turned him against them and those who never had a race riot ever began to have riots that escalated into outright civil war and it went on for decades with unspeakable atrocities. more people killed in this little country than americans lost during the entire vietnam war. it is a spirited example however given time things could look good on the surface but yet with the right demagogue to come along with the right circumstances people can be turned against each other with hate. >>host: have there been demagogues in america? >>guest: yes. my god the most lucrative

occupation. someone once asked me if i would try to convert the people like jesse jackson or others to my view and i said i am sure jesse jackson makes 10 times what i make todd you convince the man to reduce his income by 90%? >>host: what is the race industry? >>guest: there are so many. naacp that once played a very important role. but one of the problems with any institution that has one goal is once they have achieved the goal they'll have of going head of business ceremony they have to go one. the eeoc is there to defend discrimination now they have to expand the definition so now they think everything is discrimination. >>host: you right

"intellectuals and race" the kind of society to which can lead to talk about the race in history of the motion, is one in which a newborn baby enters the world supply of the world was prepackage grievances against other babies born on the same day. >>guest: yes. the idea you can redress history that we have seen a specific content is around the world. when they first were after czechoslovakia after the first world war they wanted to redress the deficits of the 17th century. nobody was even alive for the first world war. but they tried to take this out to go over to the germans and they set a chain of events that they were both were softening had ever been before and both were victims and trying to undo

what has happened to the people who were now long dead. >>host: to we have policies in this country that are formed the same way? >>guest: yes. we are one of many countries. affirmative action. demand for reparations. one of the sad things is we talked in this country as if slavery was something unique to the united states with the blacks and whites. it is one of the oldest institutions. they go back and that every single part and for most of history people who have for the simple reason did not have the resources to take people from another continent, but later in history this is what happened in the united states and in the western hemisphere.

much of the pathology is a union legacy of slavery. for example, the breakdown of the family. most black kids grew up in homes with two parents even under slavery itself intergenerational thereafter as late as the 1960's. most black children grew up in two-parent homes. only when you start with a massive great society that you start to see the family that survived all this time now begin to disintegrate. >>host: from "intellectuals and race" dr. sowell there is other evidence that black subculture has a negative effect on intellectual achievement, in other words, brighter black students to not perform as well as settings when there are many other black students around them contrary to the theory that what is needed in

educational institutions is a larger critical map. >>guest: yes. that steady eyesight shows that. it is not just my opinion. one of the studies cited many years ago in high-school in washington berry eight outstanding all black academic institution. over the years through 1954 i forget the number, 34 i think graduates of dunbar high school and amherst. very few at an -- any given time by three-quarters of these kids graduated and of those more than one quarter were five big cap of. you don't need a critical mass what you need is a good educated background and the

absence of people who were distracted. >>host: is there a relationship between race and mental capacity? >>guest: if you mean by capacity, potential, and then who knows? you cannot measure potential currently and i suspect of the next hundred years probably. but you can recognize and measure is capacity of developed capabilities like sats but potential you cannot. >>host: when it comes to race how does that play into the measurement? >>guest: i am not sure what you mean. >>host: is there a correlation between iq and what we're able to measure today with race? >>guest: sure. they're always has been

groups around the world. people and on the islands of scotland have the same iq as the blacks in the united states probably the same reason they are the isolated culture and they tend not to have the same achievement as those who have a larger cultural universe to draw upon. the data is good for measuring and for a given person at a given time for a given circumstance but the ultimate potential at the time but nobody has come close. >>host: where did the book come from? >>guest: it was the subject from a much larger subject of intellectuals in society. >>host: why did you break out in to raise? >>guest: might assistant urge me to do the book to

begin with and i said what does she know? i brought it up then i realized she was right. [laughter] now i will bring it out. >>host: what about asian-americans who as a group seemed to perform better in school? why is that? >>guest: i think though one four-letter word we cannot use is work. they just work. i remember ucla i had to go to the research library on saturday night and i looked around almost everybody was asian-american. i looked in vain for any black students. not many white students. so the following week when i would go to class so would find that asian americans were better prepared. no mystery. they work. >>host: du teach here at stanford? >>guest: i have not. when i first came here

little seminars but i never got those. >>host: diem is teaching at all? >>guest: yes and no. teaching as it is today, and no. teaching as it was when i started in 1962 that a little college in new jersey, i loved it. when i taught my last class i would be looking forward to the next class to the following monday but then the academic world changed now when i got the offer from the hoover institute that involves no teaching at all i said this is its. it is sad. there are many people out there who may well have wanted to teach but the conditions of teaching at many universities became such it was not worth the bother. >>host: what is one of the conditions that change that turned you off from teaching? >>guest: the attitude that

students the faculty and be administration. that doesn't leave much else [laughter] the students began to think that if they showed up in class that a the b was a constitutional right. students would say i am a graduating senior and i said you believe in predestination. they thought it was my responsibility to see that they graduated. i never took that view. >>host: dr. sowell is our guest on location at stanford university's hoover institution talking about his book "intellectuals and race." how many books have you written? >>guest: i have not counted. >>host: i think it is about 25. as a milton friedman fellow of public policy what is it that you do? >>guest: i was asked that

once in a legal case as an expert witness the opposing attorneys said it says you are a senior fellow now would just what does a senior fellow do? i said he has no powers and no duties and the judge said i wouldn't mind to have a job like that. >>host: you spend a day thinking? >>guest: billion ideas from morning to night is nothing but exhausting. [laughter] >>host: when you talk about cognitive justice what you mean? >>guest: i guess when what they mean by social justice is of justice for an initial opportunity to have the same life that i call a cosmic justice because no society has ever done that in any

country. so what you're asking is for the whole life chances to be the same it is virtually impossible. some kids may be raised over the same economic level but there is one set of attitudes toward education and the other will not and the one in the family that does not have the same attitude may be a fine fellow but he doesn't have the same chance there is no great -- no way he could. >>host: our goals like economic equality your opportunity, racial equality are those good goals for the nation? >> if you mean by a quality, and equality of opportunity, yes. any belief you would get the same end result, the answer is no.

with those do is tear society apart often making them worse than they would have been otherwise. it is sad. affirmative-action in academia takes minority students for example, when i was at cornell the average back student enrolled at that time score the 75th percentile on the s.a.t.. the average white student liberal arts at that time scored at 99%. half of the black students were on academic probation. you had kids who would have been on the dean's list but said to colleges where they were virtually guaranteed not to make it. >>host: are there in the affirmative-action programs you think are worthwhile? >>guest: no. that is the easiest question of paul. >>host: dr. sowell, are

you working on another book right now? >>guest: this is one of the few times in my life i do not have another book under way at the moment. ayatollahs updating books i have previously written so i am doing that but if i am on a new venture, not for the moment. >>host: you mentioned at the beginning that intellectuals, in your view, should have peer approval. >>guest: no, no, no. not should have but that is what they go by. if they all get the same wrong idea it is unstoppable >>host: do you have a peer approval? >>guest: i have never asked my peers if they approve. >>host: why not? >>guest: i don't care. >>host: what would you

like your legacy to be with what your work over the years has created? >>guest: whatever it is i will not be here to note it. so it doesn't concern me that much. >>host: deal like doing television interviews? >>guest: sometimes. i would not want to put a percentage on it. >>host: how well did you know, milton friedman? i was a student of his onetime. of course, he was the reason i was at the hoover institution i wrote the book. one of the fine human beings and if you ask me to have someone that was both genius and common sense i would say milton friedman that i would have to struggle to find another example. >>host: we have been talking with dr. sowell at the hoover institution stanford university here is his most recent book,

"intellectuals and race" this is a booker tv on c-span2. >> now on your screen is william gould, emeritus professor of law hear a stanford and also the author of this book "bargaining with baseball" labor relations in an age of prosperous turmoil" turmoil", mr. gold why are you writing about this topic? what is your involvement? >> at two different levels. one as someone as a young

man as a child and follow throughout my life and i suppose passionately involved but principally as an observer and as well as someone who has written about it, a teaching sports law in talking a lot about baseball with labor law and sports law and finally i suppose the role that comes up in this book in particular is my involvement as both the arbitrator and most particularly the chairman of the nlrb during the clinton the administration when we were involved at that time with one of the greatest of strikes in terms of duration, the greatest drake to serve as a landmark for

the development of baseball as a business in the entire history of the game. the season was shut down. >>host: 94? 8194. beginning august for the first time since 1904, the world series was canceled. in the spring of 1995, national labor relations board of which i was chairman in the '90s with the clinton administration intervened it to obtain the of juncture -- injunction then judge sova may your the players returned to the field the owners accepted them and the parties negotiated a comprehensive collective bargaining agreement and there has been peace in baseball and a good deal of prosperity ever since that period. so this book comes from all

of these perspectives as the observer and player and someone who has been involved as the arbitrator and government officials. >>host: how we get to the point* where your national liberation's board had to intervene? what occurred at third 1994? >> through then we had what i call on the books of 30 year war resulting principally out of a decision by an arbitrator in 1975 which created free agency for baseball players. many viewers and others will know of the man who was an elks fielder for the st. louis cardinals who brought the antitrust action he lost but but they wind as

a result providing for free agency for players, and a series of agreements were entered into between the union and the owners. they're deeply and try to limit that decision and to reverse it to in the last of the and this is what produces substantial stoppage. we intervened not because of the have a particular view of who was right or wrong but under our jurisdiction

the nlrb with the un called -- unfair labor practice we found the owners did not bargain in good faith. they did not follow the procedural rules at the ford -- bargaining table and will put into effect here on so we intervened and we got the so called injunction but that commands the players and it also convinced theaters they should attempt to purdue -- bargain with them but the owners had talked about replacing the

players but with baseball one of the byproducts would have been something not only calamitous for the game but cal ripken consecutive games played streak would have been stopped. those weren't the reasons we intervened. the byproducts that could have caused serious harm to the game. >>host: did you view the major league players association as a union? >>guest: we viewed it that way and i think the most observers of collective bargaining in baseball have viewed them that way. they are a traditional union but before -- they perform many functions on know, a

steel, construction would not perform because of what the union does simply in baseball and other sports bargains minimum standards on salary and a minimum wage as we know as the owners frequently negotiate to their everlasting regret as is the case with the yankees with rodriguez with the amounts of money some said are considerably with the minimum as well as they negotiate the pension. and one of the things i talk about in this book is the fact of the year that i fell in love with baseball and played it as a kid as a player's first became interested seriously in the union in the summer of 1946

when the former nlrb lawyers tried to guide the players and they've rejected that but out of that came what we would call a company union the organization to create the first pension plan that is vital for athletes that have such the abbreviated career and what will happen beyond that. >>host: who were some of the players active in 1946 to push the union? >> some of them, one of them was dixie walker, and we called hand people's choice for those who patrolled the outfield, i johnny murphy