and about 501(c)(4) groups and the undisclosed donor list. i think some some of my colleagues help disabuse of of the notion. i want to know why groups filing for 501 like the content of the prayers? why were they left in limbo if this is about the abuse of 501(c)(4) status? lastly we heard it's about organizations trying to game the system. but if it's about organizations, why was the irs so concerned about individual donors to these organizations? why in the months prior to a major federal election, the donor information for conservative groups and candidates get to illegally released by the irs? we want to know the answer to that question. why did donors to conservative

candidates get targeted with threatening communications trying to suppress their little donations? all of the is extremely troubling in, of course, we need more answers. sadly those who can tale us the most would rather plead the fifth amendment than help us get to the bottom. it must never ever happen again. we need ensure that safe guards are in place on others have said so that our executive branch cannot nurture or give license to a culture or a subculture of intimidation within our federal agencies. finally, we need to punish chose who violated our trust. i'm looking forward to that day when we do prosecute dr. easeman, those responsible for acts that may well need to be prosecuted as more facts come in. you indicate you already have those facts on hand.

let's hope that those facts are presented before a court of law, and that proper action is taken. we have an indiana tea party group that waited for a number of years for the 501(c)(4) application to be approved. they decided not to answer the irs's inappropriate questions. they finally received a denial of the 501(c)(4) status, however, a few days later after being denied, they were approved . it was curious behavior. i want to know if any of your groups had a similar situation. you were prove -- approved day after being denied? >> no. >> no, i'm actually waiting for status after 29 months. >> still waiting for three years. >> prior to the 2008. >> we were approved one week after the request for a letter was given to us.

or attorney sent in the letter we were approved. they didn't actually dpn us. but they -- we acted quickly once we had legal help point out their requesting illegal. >> no, it was 600 something day. we finally were approved. we were never denied. >> thank you. i yield back. >> thank you. mr. kelly is recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i thank you for being here. i went through an similar situation. i was an automobile dealer. my dad started the business in 1953 after coming back from the war. it was a little one carr place. you can imagine my shock in 2009 when one of my franchise was being taken away. not because we didn't know how to run it or the metric. the government made a decision. i went through a process and got the dealership back, but there's

something wrong here. there's something wrong. this is truly a david v. goliath. all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. thank you for coming here today. i hope you encouraged other people to come forward. you do not have to be afraid of this government. the fear only exists if you allow it to continue. don't threat happen to you. i traveled to the district last week. i can't tell you the number of people who said i would like to say something. if you use my name i'm afraid they'll come after me. i follow decoration day. it was about decorating the graves of our veterans. a guy came up and said, mr. kelly, can i talk to you? he said, you know, we were denied our status. here is the problem with this.

i said really? what happened. well, it was a certification was the problem. i'm wondering now if it's because the veteran's association is made up mostly of republicans that may maybe were targeted. we talk about chilling -- this is not being chilling. the american people are frozen with fear. we have gone far beyond being chilly. we have excited, we have gone way over what the government is supposed to be able to do. i have to tell you, when i talk to you, and see you here. you don't have big budgets to work with. it's a stall tactic. i can yep you on the sideline forever. what kind of law -- legal fees have you built up? >> i have my own legal fees. i'm an attorney. i've done everything quid pro

quo. i've done it all on my own. in the aclg represents us as a non-profit. that doesn't mean they don't have countless other experiences. >> sure. >> i have been funding by lones to an organization that i assumed one day would be granted tax exempt status. countless, $40,000 of my own money trying to wait for the day, the inevitable day. >> to get your day in court. >> you built up some costs? [inaudible] they are representing us. >> okay. mr.. >> hundreds of thousand of dollars we have incurred trying to protect our donor. and fight noncensus. >> meeti>>ng meeting cost, lega, yes. and other things to ran our groups such as speaker's fees to get the good trainers and the organizational people and spokes people out, yes. >> thomas moore society has taken the responsibility of our

financial -- [inaudible] okay and aclj is representing us. we haven't had to have our owner costs. >> isn't it incredible what you're going through to maintain your first amendment rights? i would tell you, it's not a problem in cincinnati. this is a problem that is deep in the bowls of the government. if at some point we cannot stop this culture of fear. this government-sponsored fear, then we were really coming up short on what the oath is we took. we didn't take the republican party. i'm sick of hearing about it's about republicans or democrats. this is about americans. it's basically who we are. we took an oath of office not to defend the right of republican, democratting with or libertarians. we took an oath to defend our constitution. i applaud you for what you're doing today. do not give up on this. i think the idea -- if you can stall them long enough and drive the costs high enough. it cost me $60 ,000 to get my

dealership back. i was told by a member the system allowed do you get it back. oh my goodness. i was able to get back from the government stole from me. isn't that a great idea. thank you for what you're doing. do not give up. stay the course. please, spread the word. do not be afraid of the government. it is only when we fear the government that we lose. this is a government that is supposed to serve the people. the people are not supposed to serve it. keep up the fight. we are with you. >> thank you. mr. griffin is recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you so much for being here today. it reminds me of the somewhat famous quote a government big enough to give you everything you need powerful enough to take everything you have, and that sort of goes to your quote earlier when you were talking about the government culture that we're dealing with here. what we have seen described here in the previous hearing is a

distant, ever-growing, almost unlimited federal government that in many instances means well. but it is unresponsive to people that live thousands of miles away. and the bigger it grows, the less accountable it is. and i think this is another example of that. i want to clarify a couple of things. there have been a lot of facts thrown around and a lot of myths as well. first of all, there was no surge in 501(c)(4) applications in 2010. we've heard -- i know some people get talking points and they read them. they don't know what they mean. but "the washington post and the atlantic and many others reported there was no surge in 501c applications in 2010.

it just didn't happen, and we're not just talking about c4. as mr. young pointed out. we're talking about c3. i'm holding a lawsuit that relates to z street. they're trying to get organized, and they are a pro-israel group, and i've got the question near they were sent. the irs -- they were trying to get 501c3 status. it not c4. does your organization support the existence of the land of israel? in the "new york times," a senior state department official

was talking about some of the charitable groups active in the middle east. he said the funding for the groups is a problem. it's unhelpful to the efforts we're trying to make. is there a connection? i don't know. it's outrageous they would ask these sorts of things of groups. you know, we heard other members quote the investigation of the inspector general. i would point out that some others have -- it was an audit. there were know mails requested. no depositions. it scratched the surface. a lot of people -- they didn't cite the fact that it said that conservative groups were targeted. that's why you're here. not a debate over the law. it's the fact some groups were gavin pass. some groups weren't. that's what this is all about. despite the fact that some

people say it's about terminology or -- we haven't given them the right terms. do you need training to know you don't ask americans what they're praying about? [laughter] seriously. do you really need training to -- to approach deal they won't protest planned parenthood? it's unbelievable. if you have to write that type of stuff in the statute, we're out of luck, folks. that's just common sense. i think this is another great argument for tax reform. if you want to reduce the abuse and the power of the irs. we need to reduce the compression -- complexity of the tax code they enforce every day. i would say in closing that i would encourage you to explore all of your options against the government. i would encourage do you look at

42 u.s. c1983 which allows do you sue when your rights have been violated. it's a particularly first amendment rights. and i would encourage you, obviously, you have your own lawyers, but when citizens are treated the way you have been, i think you ought to use every tool that you can to hold this government accountable. we're going do our job here. this is a federal government that agency after agency after agency is out of control. and i appreciate you being brave and being here today. thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to get back and thank you for being here. again, i have practiced in the business world for almost thirty years before i came here. i've been here for two years. i have a cpa profession. i had to sit in front of the irs agents with clients, or i had to

get the letter from the individual that you all received from the irs. i have to tell you, it was appalling not only when i heard some of your testimony was and what the irs did. i have to tell you -- i sat in many, many situations with the irs. they never seem to care, i mean, for time -- their timelines. boy, it's amazing how long they made you all wait. that's appalling that this government allowed this to happen. one thing that is interesting for me as a business guy, when i took over a bad business, it would have been the easiest thing in the world for me to blame the guy who afind -- appointed the macker of the company that took it over. quite frankly, we had to fix the problem and move forward. when i hear people say it was a bush appointee or whatever. i also say isn't it amazing? we should be actually talking about how we fix the problems whoever is there. and as leaders we should be

taking responsibility and make sure those problems are fixed. i have to tell you, we had testimony weeks ago from actic commissioner miller he seemed more interested in providing excuses. yorch how many times heard him say i don't know. can you imagine if you answered i don't know. i know, you couldn't have -- you county get that far quickly with answering properly. they would thrown your application away. we have the active commissioner talking about i don't know. he gave half hearted apology. i found appalling and most disturning with the responses. i would wonder of victims of many of the action. i would consider them illegal. do you believe the actions by the irs to you were illegal? i would like to hear your thoughts, each one of you. [inaudible] i know illegal is a strong

word. i would like to hear your thoughts. >> it's absolutely illegal. when the government uses irs for political purposes, remember this was part of the article of impeachment in the nixon administration. it's a seriously matter. >> yes, i agree with what he said. >> sub make it a felony disclose confidential tax returns. >> i agree with everyone here. it was illegal. i think it was immoral. i think also it was very un-american. >> it's easy for me. our attorney said yes, it's very illegal. so i agree. >> thank you. i would tell you this, one thing they'll say about me on the record. i was a player. i believe in playing with my clients. -- fighter. i appreciate your fighting. don't quit. if you ever need anybody to

stand besides you. give me a call. >> thank you. last but not least, mr. reid. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you to the panelists here. it's coming to the end here. i want to express my sincere thoughts we stand with you. certain individual have been fired because of this. let's be clear. mr. miller sat where you were. when i asked a question he was not fired. he had been allowed to retire with full benefits. and drawing a paycheck paid for by the american taxpayer as he tried to an my question. he wouldn't answer my questions. that frustrates me as i'm sure it frustrate you. we hear lewis taken the fifth allowed to go on vacation, i'll call it. that's accountability in washington, d.c. that, to me, is unacceptable.

and what i wanted to leave today with, mr. gare gareson you said it in your statement. i appreciate it. a lot of people in washington forgot who they work for. they work for you. not the other way around. that's the cultural of the abuse of power i see in the irs. to i want to hear from you how that makes you feel that there hasn't been any accountability as of yet. what would you ask us, me specifically, as a member of the panel to do to make you feel justice has been served? >> ting will take a lot for the american people to ever trust the irs because of the nature. the irs has been a scary agency. what i would is like so committed to do a full investigation. follow through on every lead.

don't stop until you get to the bottom. we will be here to hold you accountable. >> i appreciate that. if we don't do that, one of the things i'm concerned about with my colleagues on the other side of the aisle. if we don't get to the bottom 77 it. you've already heard. we've heard the chilling effect of what the irs has done. you talk about the fact that some of the pamphlets weren't produced. you talk about donor shying away from giving donations to your organization. do you think it's going get worse or better? would you advise us to sit silently by and do what so many elected officials have done before? there's a problem.

we have to change the law to make sure it never happen again. we have to ebb force the law on the book. you point out the fact it's a felony, mr. eastman. a felony. that's equivalent to who? murders are felons. robbers are felons. the law has been declared we're going hold this type of behavior accountable to the level of the seriousness of a felony. and yet what we have heard so far is it was a mistake. does that make you feel better? does it make you feel better that's the standard we're going to live with as the accountability measure for us in washington? >> when the claim is so divided and apart from what we know to be the truth, it doesn't make me feel better at all. >> and also, i would like to end with your words on this. you are the individuals that have stood up and come here.

i applaud you. how many of your colleagues do you think that came are similar to ones that came up to me during the week when i was back home working the district i said, hey, you know, i want to tell you what happened to me. don't use my name. how many do you think are out there? any of you offer any hazards to guess? >> just last week, i had one of our attendees say please, take my name off the e-mail. i'm afraid. there's a lot of language here about people going in and out of the shadow. the citizenship ticket in this particular place, with this issue, should be the rule of law. nothing more. nothing less. please go where the facts lead you. anyone have a guess? tens of thousands. 300 plus americans watching this on tv.

do you think they'll say that's what i want to do with my free time. the perspective of challenging the irs and having the last ten years of tax returns gone through with a fine tooth comb is chilling for many americans. i, for the first time, bought audit defense. this is scary. you're dealing -- don't fight city hall. at some point you have to stand and fight or city hall is no longer what it's supposed to be. thank you. time is expired. >> i thank the chairman. i'm sorry i had to step out for quite a bit. i missed a few statements. in one particular by colleagues. let me say to to the witnesses, you are all victims here. you and so many other groups conservative and progressive alike targeted by the irs are the victims.

and to say otherwise is wrong. it's not representative of the democratic party as well. as the chairman noted in an e-mail he sent out yesterday. the outrage of what is occurring at the irs is shed on republicans and democrats alike. second, while i welcome the witnesses, i would like that highlight that the minority party are typically allowed to invite one witness to each hearing. we did not invite any witness to the hearing. that is not because progressive groups were not targeted by the irs. they were. in fact, the cig report looking in to this targeting documented that fact. i would like that submit for the report this list of dozen of progressive groups who are inappropriately targeted alongside tea party groups by the irs. >> without objection. i would say to mr. crowley as earlier. the minority didn't identify any witnesses that had been targeted by the irs. but certainly given that opportunity. >> i know. i'm making my statement.

>> that's correct. >> my point. >> whether instead of making it about ideological group. we want to make the hearing about the facts. how we prevent it from happening again. whether it be the targeting of progressive or conservative groups and everyone else in between, of all the members of the groups testifying today might never vote for me. i want each and every one to know as a congress, we collectively represent you. as many may recall, i asked lo wees on the tax exempt office whether they were politically targeting groups two days before she and the irs came clean to the world and admitted the agency was in fact screening on ideological grounds. many asked me why i asked about the matter before the public

awareness took place. the reason is no americans should be targeted by the government for their personal view. i want to get to the bottom of the rumors that have been circulating for some time. that the irs was in fact once again targeting certain individuals. unfortunately it's not the irs's first time mixing up the mission with the personal politics. starting in 2002 and 2004, under then president bush they went after christian churches, and environmental groups. and the actions are as wrong today as they were in 2004. while i don't recall the same bipartisan outrage existing then as i believe it does today, it should have. no agency z hat right to target or discriminate based on ideology. i want to correct the record on a few matters. some of my republican colleagues have been working overtime to paint it as a political conspiracy by the white house.

there is no evidence tieing this to the white house. in fact the ig report makes it clear. at the most recent hearing on the topic. the treasury inspector general appointed by president bush testified that no officials on either the treasury department or the white house were involved or knew of anything about the targeting. the same inspector general under questioning from congresswoman said that he would have questioned the and investigated the senior treasury department and any obama administration official if he thought they were involved. again, he testified under oath they were not involved. i would like to submit the discussion between the treasury inspector to the record. >> without objection. it was the same months before the 2012 national

election. i would like to submit the treasury inspector general's letter to mr. issa, and the rsc chair jim jordan confirming the investigation dated july 11, 2012 for the record. >> without objection. >> do if we think there was evidence of political targeting at the highest level of our government during an election year that members of congress like chairman issa would have sat quietly and not brought it to the publics' attention? i think chairman issa's silence spoke for itself. he did not and said nothing because there was no whistle to blow. what concerns me it's the second chapter in less than a decade the irs has been caught going rogue. they went rogue in 2002, 2004 when the inappropriately targeted churches, religious groups, and the naacp. mr. chairman, i think the record speaks for itself. there is no smoking gun. what happened to these americans is intolerable.

and ought not to have happened whether it be progressive or conservative groups. the action of the irs -- from a democratic side or republican side. the republican administration or democratic administration should never be tolerated. never be tolerated. >> thank you, time is expired. i want to thank the witnesses for coming forward today. it's not an easy thing to do to sit through a congressional hearing and answers questions from a whole variety of perspectives and members. but i want to tell you how impressed i am with the answers you have gave and the quality of your testimony. i'm impressed with your moral conviction, the perseverance, and the courage so you shown by being here today and representing many other americans who are equally affected. you help the committee a great deal. more importantly, you helped the american people a great deal and the nation a great deal. i thank you for that. with that, this hearing is adjourned. [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> i thought the hearing was actually a powerful hearing. it's very clear that this is not just a list of a few people. there's really a somatic -- is it not working? should i start over? all right. first i want to -- i want to say i thought it was a powerful hearing. i think it's very clear it's not just a systemic -- this is a systemic approach to this whole issue, and this really gave, i think, a voice to what hundreds of americans have gone through. and i really meant it when i

said i was impressed by the quality of the testimony. it's a difficult format for the unniche yateed. i thought to hear their stories firsthand, and what it meant to them and to the country was very powerful. thank you. [inaudible conversations] >> certainly the investigation is going to continue. we are really just beginning. we're going to need to interview more witnesses. probably in an interview format more than a hearing format. but that will be the next phase. i think that we move in to. i think it was important to hear it personally from people who were affected and not just a transcript of what may have occurred to them. but actually hear what they had to said. i thought their voices were strong and important to hear from them. ..

>> i think this is much broader than that. when we get the fact that john reformation was disclosed involving 501 c. threes, it's a broader look at that. at the end there may be legislative changes we need to make, but at this point, were trying to get our hands on the scope of the issue including that its much larger than what we first thought.

this is a nationwide systematic approach to targeting people of certain political beliefs. this is what we're trying to understand how far this goes to my still don't know who initiated this and how far it goes up to chain them are still trying to find those things out. >> there's no broken tax code. >> certainly it shows a simpler tax code would give less discretion to the irs at one of the witnesses said that as well. it could be more of a review of documents as opposed to these complex judgment calls. derby certainly helpful. [inaudible] to find more would have been in those cases. >> i certainly have that authority and i'll use that the appropriate time.

thank you.

>> caroline harrison was an active participant in benjamin harrison's political allies. i had just stepped out the door as benjamin harrison did many times to address the crowd became to hear him speak when he was campaigning for the president. he was very much devoted to benjamin harrison in the ideals of his campaign. when she planned her and not you're all a threat, she wanted it to be designed and made in the united states because

benjamin harrison campaign, advocated that we become an independent nation and she was going to do her part to see that hopping. >> she loved to entertain. many different groups came to hear benjamin harrison's speed. one group that came was a group that harrison greatly admired very much encourage the black community. when he finished speaking to them coming in by demott to come into his home, which they did didn't shake hands as benjamin harrison and caroline harrison as they walk through the house. >> is his favorite room, his library. how interesting a nice place to be, we've caroline harrison's beautiful little dusk. in this room, probably benjamin

jurek great deal of strength and comfort from having caroline close by and maybe she didn't talk to him about what paper he was writing or what bill he was working on, but just looking up from his desk and seeing his kerry was an encouragement to him. >> trio of drought fueled wildfires burned in new mexico and california this past weekend. tuesday and natural resources committee examined whether wired fire prevention programs are underfunded by the above administration. u.s. chief thomas tidwell and others provided strategies for improving wildfire management. this hearing as an hour and 50

minutes. >> the committee will come to order. good morning, the purpose of this morning during us to discuss mild-mannered fire management. the 2013th fire season has hardly begun and hundreds of families in california and new mexico have hardly been forced to evacuate in the face of raging fires. as we speak, nature fire is burning just 25 miles outside of santa fe. the latest fires are part of an ominous trend towards a baker, hotter, longer fire season. simply more treacherous and all the particulars. 2012 firefighters died combating more than 9 million acres in the western united states. two air tankers crashed in more than 4200 homes and other

structures were destroyed well over annual average. the federal agencies responsible for protecting western communities from these fires must use the smartest, most is firefighting strategies possible as the risk from wildfire escalate, the status quo for firefighting simply is not going to be good enough. these intense seasons present direct threats to america's community. what a canyon fire in colorado burned 346 buildings and late insurance claims more than $350 million. 2013 predicted to be an intense fire season. fires have begun in my home state of oregon, even the western part of our state which typically is less fire prone. town hall meetings another gathering continually heard from

dedicated professionals questions about whether they would have adequate resources to fight the fires. for cash is the challenge by wildfire are only going to grow in the coming years. december 2012 was the third warmest on record and included the warmest july in our country. the overall trend of tree choosing drought and wildfire in the west and southwest has been attributed in numerous scientific reports to human induced climate change. scientific reports claim the wildfire season is longer and more intense due to climate change. today we have an expert panel of witnesses to explore the topic of wild land fire management. three points and i recognize my friend and colleague, senator murkowski. first-come actions of federal government can take to not only reduce the race, but also save our taxpayer money. studies confirmed fire prevention activities such as

hazardous fuel treatment and restoration can in fact reduce fire suppression caused and yet this year's budget request from the depart of the interior calls for dramatic cuts to hazardous fuel treatment. the committee will hear from diane vosick about a report of the economic and if it's an hazardous fuel especially at a time when folks are hurting a little america and oregon's communities, for example where the test really want to get back to work through these projects are the best investments are government can make so we are going to ask a number of questions as we get into this baffling all of the position but there's no significant justification for the request been made for these hazardous fuel treatment. my own cases and best feeling these fire prevention activities are exactly what is needed that

we will be getting it to that issue. second from our current fleet of air tankers is so ancient they are probably better placed in museums than in the sky. in 2000 to the server side air tankers under contract and now they have a beard and encouraged by the announcement last month for five new nexgen contracts pending the air tankers are vital to helping firefighters on the ground keep communities across the last year after year. at least one protest has been funneled to the next generation air tanker proposal. i understand yesterday the forest service was able two over three of the next-generation contracts while while he continues to work on the protest and i look forward to hearing from the chief and others what they're going to be doing to get those planes have been ready as soon as possible. finally, the committee wants to focus on the proportion devoted

to management has increased steadily from 13% to budget in 1991 to 41% of the budget in 2013. in many recent areas succeeded its budget for suppression required to transfer funds from other projects colloquially called fire pyrene to cover emergency wildfire costs. it was enacted in 2009 to establish a reserve funding for a wild land fires that would be available to fight the situations. the flame act established a fund to cover the cost of complex wildfire events and serve as a reserve in amounts provided for wildfire suppression appropriation accounts were exhausted via the office of management and budget has not been implementing the flame act is intended. they calculate part of the 10 year cost of suppression.

it time for the office of management and budget to actually implement this slot as contended could be spoken as secretary of vilsack about the need for a comprehensive discussion about the office of management and budget. finally, the critics who are too discussion to reduce catastrophic fire, get your tankers needed to fight those fires and mobilize to ensure that enough funding is provided to fight fires without sacrifice and the agents he critical mission. i also want to welcome mr. doug decker come outstanding for us or for my home state would look forward to his testimony and that of further witnesses. before he turned her ranking member, i want to take note of an event that seems to have transpired recently and senator franken is work of his first grandchild and we congratulate

our friend and colleague and maybe i'll offer some thoughts about that special event. unless you want to do it now? >> i just helped my grandson in my arms a couple days ago and told him that no one expects him to know anything. there's no pressure on them now. >> perfect. [laughter] a perfect summary of our challenges. senator murkowski. >> to be young and innocent again. mr. chairman, thank you for the opportunity to focus on where we are with wild land fire management. today will be examining our national wildfire policy this includes lead managers to coordinate and collaborate at the state and federal levels for restoration and the dynamic

tensions between wildland helped insert ecosystems and the need to impacts to people in their home for wildlife and the escalating federal cost of these activities as you've noted are recognized in a constrained budget we have to figure out how we are a strategic company has limited resources wisely. u.s. spoke in to the historical increase we are seeing seeing in terms of wild land fires across the country, what is happening in this season. we are all anxious as we await the summer and know that we will want to can have forest fires burning across our country. certainly more and more people dead and then around our forests, grasslands and other wild land areas, the fire related challenges of managing the associated risk is

significantly assessed these wildfires. the total amount for management has averaged $3.5 billion from fy 08 to present. the majority of wild land fire management funding goes to the surveys in the forest service fireman fire management is your funding totaled nearly 41% of the discretionary funds appropriated to the agency. it is because firefighting was sitting at the agency's budget housing agencies to engage and fire pyrene that we enacted the flame act and as you have noted, as you describe the purpose of that act, we have not seen the flame act provide the funding. we have not seen the flame act do what it had intended when we

had proposed that mental block. instead, the agency budget proposal used for suppression accounts of the flavors are fun dated may 2013 forecast for suppression expenditures put up by the agencies and season as required seem to put the agency in the same trajectory as last year. that looks like we once again working with fire pyrene. the office of management and budget may be part of the problem but regardless of who's involved with having me figured out, agencies cannot continue to read non-fire accounts to pay for firefighting. this brings me to the aerial firefighting specifically. the use of aircraft is contributing and we recognize the agency must have an aviation fleet for firefighting but quite frankly perplex how much the agencies have struggled with developing and executing an

aviation strategy particularly when it comes to modernize and our air tanker fleet. we see numerous studies, reports and plans over the years. another gao investigation is underway but we still don't seem to have a clear picture here at what is, efficient, sustainable aviation program should look like. who asked the question whether or not a neo-from our modern aviation fleet rein in firefighting costs and whether it can mitigate the devastating impacts of wildfire. i've been listening to the agencies for years pain it can. that hasn't been efficient data collected on a beach in firefighting performance to back up the claim and support the acquisition of antiaircraft, even the best business has to muster with a one b. tag to the question of

escalating cost composite assails reduction can reduce catastrophic fire and suppression expenditures. we spent taxpayer money back in fy 01. federal continues to rise steadily fewer fy 08 to nearly 620 million substantial reductions in congress is having a hard time justifying increasing expenditures. one of the reasons this they are still outstanding questions on where we make the difference here. a great deal will be discussing this morning clearly better ball impact in western states. i look forward to the discussion in the conversation we have from here.

>> thank you, senator murkowski. the number of senators on both sides are they out this morning reflects the urgency of the situation. we've got for a panel chief tom tidwell and deputy secretary can worsen his ecological restoration institute oregon state forester, doug decker appeared to begin with you, chief and ecology are prepared statements are part of the record and if you could summarize in the interest of time in the factory so many senators here. but speaking with you, chief, welcome. >> mr. chairman, make a member murkowski, thank you for the opportunity to be here. your opening remarks basically laid out challenges we deal with. there's just no question that today the fires are larger and more complex than the fire seasons are hotter, drier and

longer and from everything we see, this is not going to be changing. these conditions come about for a couple reasons. one is abundance of biomass of the landscapes which we can contribute to the last many decades. and driving it is the changing climate we deal with. today the fire season we face today are over 60 days longer than when i was a firefighter. the snow melts earlier, feels dry out faster and i'll tell you tomorrow month is what is driving conditions were faced with. even though we continue to be close to 90% successful attack, those fires when they gave quickly explode on the landscape and we see that once again this year in new mexico and a powerhouse in california and also a gun that in colorado.

the other thing that has to this is over 40 million acres throughout the interior west is also going to be feeling this fires over the next few years and then you add to that the expansion of the wildland urban interface. just what the service with 62 million acres of national forests are either in or near the wild urban interface definitely has the complexity of fighting fires when the first thing you have to do is make sure you do everything to keep the fire from coming in to the subdivision. what are we doing about this? this is the thing that is important coming our direction is for us to work together between the federal agencies and state partners to come up with a cohesive strategy how to do with this and that's going forward with. the first part is to restore

fire systems tracks with accelerated restoration and the reason we need to do more work to restore these plants and reduce the hazardous fuels. the second key parties to help build fire adapted human communities so communities develop protection plan and implement fire by taking so they can do their part to reduce the threat of fire on the private land in the third parties to continue for us to suppress fires where we need to suppress fires. we have the resources they need between the federal agencies, state, county and local fire. where fire fighters come aviation resources that will have the large air tankers we need this here to respond to these fires. the thing i need to stress is these conditions are not going to change, but by focusing and moving forward is essential to make a difference so we can continue to protect communities

and restore this national forests and grasslands, reduce the hazardous goes on fires occur and they will occur that they burn at a much less severity so it easy for firefighters to be effective for suppression actions and the consequent is her so much left in these areas recover so much faster following a light to moderate burn versus some of the severe burning conditions we face today. this concludes my remarks i look forward to your questions. >> chairman wyden cannot make a member murkowski, thank you for the opportunity to testify interior wedding as for the 2013th fire season. the partners is prepared at the available resources. a couple days ago the national potential outlet for june through september was released.

that predicts above normal fire potential for much of the west. a variety of conditions discussed this morning contribute to fire activity and severity but the outlook is an important insight into fun, where and how to position resources for the summer. psych departments in the federal government iphone impact as we develop sequestration implementation plans made every effort to preparedness and absurd that cuts in a way that would not compromise the ability to respond to fires season. therefore we focus the fire program such as travel, training services and operating supplies first. the sequestration resulted in a $37.5 million cut. the long-term impacts of sequestration are impossible to avoid. we've had to make choices that reduce the capacity such as static and is converted same

firefighter employment periods and reduce the number of hazardous fuels occurred. other reductions will have a residual impact on the overall numbers of firefighters available for dispatch as many hires while being on fire positions are redcarded are trained to fight fires. this year the interior has 27 single entry urging hers, double the number in the past and 42 contracts. in a conscious decision for the 2013 season and reduce the overall cost of the program pivoted a small a small march helicopters available. the reality of today's challenge is to the importance across landscapes but herders to achieve our goals. and here is committed to a strategy to restore and maintain landscapes, create fire community and was onto wildfire

to realize those goals that i want to conclude comments by noting several challenges facing the two departments enrichment program. and to realign the program to better integrate activities as we continue to develop strategies to do with the long-term effects of declining budgets, changing climate, while they work for us and continued need to develop technology and decision support tools. the department is prepared to make good challenges today and tomorrow at the most efficient use of its available as a specific actions include production furthers the greatest opportunity to reduce the risk of severe wildfires and continued improvement decision-making by leveraging the support system capabilities to predict and safeguard by a scholar protect community enhance natural resource ecosystem hall. the response that comes from use

of resources, position of firefighting resources and improving aviation. continued review to apply lessons learned and best practices to policy and operations continue strategic planning and collaboration tribal partner, state partners to develop meaningful performance and implementation plans to address the challenges posed by wildfires in the nation. they were collaboratively in all aspects along with federal, tribal state and local partners. we continue to improve safety, effectiveness, cost efficiency and community resource protection with available resources. if this misstatement. thank you for the opportunity to testify today. >> good morning chairman wyden, ranking member murkowski. i'm doug thacker, direct or of

the department of forestry. please to be with you to author a state where 60% are owned by the federal government and speak on behalf of the assist the nation estate foresters. must the statutory responsibility to protect forest lands from fire. last are the states provided more than a billion makers nationally and for us in oregon the fire mission is the cornerstone that is a major part of what we do in who we are and the reason i was first organized is the art work is' largest and i'm proud to say we have a team of engines had a to help out on the fires down there. more than a month ahead of normal to have double the number of fires that we usually see this time of year and triple the number of acres burned. this evacuations of subdivisions and a senator might mention we've had active fires were

concerned about the fire season ahead. people are living in fire prone landscapes, fire seasons or longer. all this produces with and costs that can overwhelm our best fire management offers. the trends highlight important differences in mission and risk tolerance between state and federal agencies and clearly ready to understand and accommodate differences. our mission is very clear to put out every fire as quickly and safely as possible. it's a posture we believe minimizes resource damage and suppression costs and all oregonians. federal part is protesters suppressing fires and allowing fire to achieve resource benefits and in effect this

transfers raised two adjoining state protected lands as important to note the transfers already occurred even before a fire starts giving federal land better place today of uncharacteristically severe fire. unfortunately, reductions in land management and hostages deal programs make it more difficult to address problems in a meaningful scale. this brings us to the blue mountains of northeast oregon, one of the first projects under the wildfire strategy including fire response, and implementing that his management of restoration as a way of having more fire was still and landscapes. in the blues, department of forestry shares 3500 miles of boundary with the u.s. forest service in these communities were all working together to look for better ways to strength in an albany sun fire response.

our collective ability to respond successfully is directly link the congress and the landscape is to fire and how what we've adopted these areas. we have frank discussion about risk tolerance, the values on private lands and how and when to use a management tool that may look for ways to improve the economics of forest management as a way to increase was science at the landscape. on the subject of fire caused for oregon as well as stay foresters, were concerned about the escalation for all agencies and they often come at the expense of a program intended to restore the land to mitigate the risk. with adequately funding federal fire suppression and maintaining reserve accounts in a way that doesn't come at the expense of other programs was the intent

and flame was enacted in 2009 and is an essential element for long-term collective success. thank you for the opportunity and i look forward to her questions and answers. >> at the town hall meetings in oregon last week, people were talking about the collaborative work you in the chief are doing about to explore that with you. >> mr. chairman, senator murkowski members of the committee, to thank you. i want to focus on three portions of my testimony, collaboration, proactive management needs of many to support emergency fire suppression without trading off proactive management. mr. chairman, the nature conservancy is feature-based solutions for the use of fire. we connect our first prescribed burn 50 years ago good work all over america with a white frighted commuters and partners to restore forests in a way that

makes people wonder why that is more resilient. we facilitate the national fire learning network better than fire science team is a key asset. my first issue is collaboration for success. this is not considered to be innovative that contribute to local economy. they're bringing together local mill owners, water utility managers, conservation groups, scientists and others, collaborative groups identified beneficial solutions to health challenges. the collaborative forest restoration program has been a valuable vehicle for prioritizing and testing science-based approaches. we must continue this exciting program. we need to apply lessons learned to improve forestry throughout the nation a source plans developed under the new planning rule and we must always increase collaboration is a fundamental aspect local needs and national

priorities. my second major issue is proactive management as a responsible investment. the fuel treatments have proven to save and cost averse to communities communities and increased ability. the nature conservancy is disappointed to see the cuts to feel programs of interior and for services. the 57 increase the potential for most of the rest of summer. it does not make sense to reduce the amount of federal programs ahead of this program. we are concerns that the budget emphasizes structures to the exclusion of natural areas. we urge a balanced approach among treatment someone up in undeveloped areas and mr. chairman i hope this committee will support careful appropriate use of fire at a

cost effective management tool. we need to work to increase understanding of accepting risk of managed to reduce fires. our last issue is sufficient funding for emergency wildfire response. the nature conservancy recognizes the need for robust proactive federal and state firefighting operations for life, property natural resources written portion i suppression expenditures are currently far out of balance and that to overtake the battle management purposes for which figures were established. paying for the tremendous emergency cost results in borrowing. even the threat of fire byron has a chilling effect on the ability plan managers to panic cavities and retain skilled contractors and workforce. the act of 2009 was a bipartisan effort to change the mechanisms for suppression but implementation is not perceived

as intended is your mention. buster the administration has transferred more than 450 million per month depression programs. forecasts for the fire season suggest another costa had been more disruptive monies have to be transferred. battle improvements including hazardous fuels will market to to protect communities and lands. the underfunding means and robbing other programs to fill the gaps. the account should be fully funded about the ten-year average use to calculate suppression names. for many balances in the accounts at the end of the year should carry over into the next fiscal year. i further recommend an expert panel be commissioned to provide options for a more effective and sustainable approach. the critical life and safety should be guaranteed to adequate funding. they should not come at the

expense of vital conservation public service activities of the agencies and bureaus, which are the same federal funding. one option the committee may consider as a disaster prevention fund utilized to support vital fire suppression during emergencies just as the disaster relief fund is utilized to help communities recover after disasters. fire suppression is different from other natural disasters and better response is most acutely during the actual event. i conclude by reminding the committee that climate change is making the problem much worse. for us become warmer, drivers subject to more extreme weather events. time is of the essence. they must switch from costing react is response to a more balanced approach to this requires congressional attention to create truly adaptive communities to provide ongoing benefits to society and nature. thankthank you very much.

>> thank you, mr. topik. they said three. >> i represent publicly and communities. for 20 years to help get people working together and make those towns vital to keep your public lands and our public lands in good condition. we are very affected by wild land fire policy and even more by her wild land fires. so we have to approaches. one is about the budget number happier about to take on omb in conversation. we feel and the national fire plan there are three pieces and people talk about three pieces. suppression, hazardous ill-treatment and/or restoration and fire death in communities. our federal government for suppression to the dutchman of everything else so preparedness

in this budget is $1.2 billion. hazardous fuels at a reduced rate is in the hundreds of millions at one time is that 680 the community assistance piece of the budget was missing for the first 10 years, financed through the economic program at $129 a year to help learn how to live with fire, build biomass plants, get her work can become a trainer work us. it disappeared after the first two years. it only resurrect dead since 2009 when they decided they should proactively help communities by missing near $2 million a year. so if you want to have a row biased fire that kills the fire, make it work economically, you have to give the service tools

to work with communities, private business at the local level where the land of fire is so they can make this transition. we've had no tools to make the transition. that's one part of the budget would like you to think about. the other parties when you you have a tornado company do not ask the national weather center to help those people but that disaster. the national weather center does not fund feedback. why is the forest service or premier natural resource management agency has to find fire disasters -itis hatcheries are his budget? we believe any fire that takes more than a local type three team is an escaped fire in an emergency. to us the service up and emergencies that of his son just as the mistake will lead us to

the horrible negative feedback loop are now in. we need to convene on this and make a better more sane decision for the people of america. her community service and health. for the same property on the same lines. on the solutions. recommended to reduce costs over time? one of the things we've learned is collaborative planning does work. people will use fires that they've had a chance to meet together and decide when and where and what condition it is appropriate. that decision needs to be before the fire start. we embrace collaborationist way to get this innovation going. we know if the forest service to take the vegetation management plan and integrate them, we could get more land treatment,

but that doesn't happen on a regular basis. so having a hard time integrating the civil side with the agency side. finally a skilled workforce at the local level will save you a lot of money. in the west we identified 6200 communities at risk it if each of us had a 20 man crew/fire crew, you've got 120,000 more firefighters. they you don't have to pay for every single day. this is to be more efficient, ways to save money in a way to make the surface became to became the resource agency in the world. thank you very much. >> thank you birdwell said. >> chairman biden, senator murkowski members of the committee come in thank you for the opportunity to present the

conclusions from a study by the ecological restoration institute of northern arizona university. we examine the ecological uneconomic effectiveness of hazardous fuel reduction and restoration treatment under study. my name is up to amanda policy and partnerships at the era. our institute under the direction of wally covington is well-known for ecological restoration treatment and food burning, stinging antonina bird and testing results of treatments. we look at the economic and social implications of restoration is on today i'm trying to my colleague, dr. jan who can come the late this project and a faculty member of the school for a stray january january 2012, the opposite wild land fire the department of interior asked us to examine persisting questions asked by the office of management and budget as well as the government accountability office regarding

the effectiveness of fuel treatment of restoration. i'm not going into great detail on the reporter. you all should have a copy, but i'm going to focus my remarks on the conclusions we reached pertinent to the topic today. how can we improve federal wild land fire management? the answer on our analysis is straightforward. we need to be more aggressive of solving underlying problems and access fields by affecting more treatments to restore the landscape. our study provides ample economic and ecological evidence for this approach. in summary, we did several things. first he is an evidence-based approach similar to modern medicine to go through the literature and analyze the effectiveness of treatments. what we found is treatments to reduce fire severity and

mortality during a wildfire. we found treatments are effective as storing carbon on site. we also looked at wildfire simulations that show treatment can change fire behavior, fire severity and increase firefighting effectiveness thereby reducing suppression costs. treat answer showed to be effective in protecting communities in both wildfire simulations and also looking at them. i draw your attention to page 11 of this report and a picture of treatments outside the city of alpine, these treatments protect the city during the 2011 wallow fire were extremely effective and it's a pretty dramatic representation. what we have found is treatments are effective, however treatments occur broader scale such as south side the

interface, they would be a greater impact on reducing these large severe magnifiers. we can improve the ecological uneconomic effectiveness of treatments if we can on the problem sooner before forests have degraded and our departed from their natural condition. finally, we found if present trends of development continue during a time of increasing dryer and warmer climate, we will see an increase in suppression costs. one of the key questions we also was one whether federal dollar invested in treatments result in savings in suppression? we've demonstrated through the literature treatments can be effective, however asking the question this way is an insufficient analysis for understanding the full value of the treatment in part to the ecosystem as well as communities

. in addition, phil stressed the question, what is the consequence of an action? you all have in front of you a copy of the full cost accounting fire. we do this in partnership with the school of business at mau and presents it to be grabbed example of what happens as a result of inaction. we sat to calculate the full cost of this fire and subsequent post-fire flooding that occurred in the flagstaff and coconino county area. their interviews we calculated this fire cost between $133,000,147,000,000. the biggest cost was the loss of property value to adjacent landowners, $60 million, the most devastating cost was the loss of a 12-year-old in the post-fire flooding. in conclusion, evidence shows treatments or effect did.

however, looking at treatments in terms of suppression savings is inadequate to understand the full value we accrued by doing this work in order to get ahead of the large and severe fires, more treatment are needed and are needed outside the interface were the big magnifiers boy love. by treating degraded landscape sooner, we can be more economically and ecologically affect the and finally we need to manage our urban interface to reduce fire risk of depression costs. thank you for the opportunity to speak to the committee. >> chief, but sturbridge air tankers. these air tankers are supposed to be strategic assets, not museum pieces and we got something like a quarter of the tankers today that we did in 2002 and i believe our country needs at least seven additional next-generation air tankers flying this fire season.

we learned yesterday the service is able to award three of the seven pending contracts for next-generation air tankers and i gather the other four are under state because of the sun going protests. will the three additional air tankers, the once awarded yesterday, are they going to operate the summer? >> has come in fact one was in southern california over the last couple days. we are to have one aircraft operating and we expect the other to going through static drop tests will soon be ready to fly. >> what is being done to bring on the additional for next-generation contracts this summer? >> we are working through the protest process which is part of our contracting regulations and will continue to work through that to see where we end up.

>> we've got to cut through that. i understand issues with respect to states and i want to do everything necessary to override those days because you got to have timely operation of seven additional planes and out you to tell senator murkowski and i what we need to do to do with that. i next monitor and to the situation with alan the because this is so critical to the question of what this committee needs to do to ensure we get the resources for fire prevention. chief and deputy assistant secretary thorsen, when did you ask me to determine how much money should be set aside for the coming buyers even? >> we have routine meetings with the staff throughout the year to keep them abreast of what's happening in fire season.

>> when was the last one? i want to find out when the last one was, who was bair and what was sad because we've got to turn this around. as you know on this committee, this wall between the agency and office management budget goes on here at your year and the urgency of preventing fire is what is on the mind of the committee. when was the last meeting with a one b.? >> i have to get back to u.s. to the dayton who attended who attended the meeting. >> not by date, but we have ongoing conversations and these discussions have been going on about alternatives. >> i would like to know when the last meeting was and i would like to know who was bair. given the fact you have these meetings on an ongoing basis, what has been the position of a land beyond the scary hot

argument they seem to be making that says there's really no justification for these prevention monies. i gather that has been the position and if you could tell me more what was said by officials in your response, that would be helpful. what we're going to do is figure it out up all relevant parties together and turn this around. this has gone on long enough and i am committed to turning this around. so what has been the tenor of these discussions with respect to this argument that they say you can't justify the prevention and what do you say? both of you, chief and then this thorsen. >> it's always been around increasing costs and what we can do to address that. it's one of the things we've been implementing risk management decisions so when we have a large wildfire we can do a better job to make the best

decision but the best science, best expertise, best technology to recognize when actions are in effect been unnecessary we shouldn't be putting people and pilots at risk. because of actions the last few years, mastroianni saved over $3759 by avoiding risk would not have made any difference on the fires. this is a discussion with omb to show the actions we take are doing everything we can to manage appropriately at the same time have the resources necessary. >> my time is up and i know that two of you have to handle very gingerly these discussions with respect to a one b., but i also know they've repeatedly questioned the justification for prevention and i'm committed to getting to the bottom of this.

my time is expired. we'll have another round of questioning. senator murkowski. >> thank you, mr. chairman. chief, it seems everyone on the panel would agree our situation with how we deal with the treatment is critical, a priority. secretary tidwell has described her forest as a tinderbox. i think he pretty much told the committee the same thing. again, the consensus is the work is important, necessary and valuable family to invest more intrigue than, not only where we have the wildlife urban interface, but beyond that as well. and yet, when we look at the budget, it looks like were going a different direction.

the budget cuts, hazardous skill programs at 50% interior, 30% cut and a significant departure from what appears to be a consensus in the direction we're taking. furthermore, 59 from the hazardous skill programs propose to use it for modernization and of the larger air tanker fleet. can you give me the rationale between -- behind taking money from hazardous fuels and using it to pay for the air tanker modernization? >> senator, it comes down to the simple reality of having to address depression needs at the new aircraft and at the same time between fy 12 and request from 14 to make the ten-year average for the forest service, we had to put another $130 billion in the suppression

to meet ten-year average. when you look what you've already brought up over 41% of our budget currently in fire, he gets to appoint for you to stop putting so much into the program. one places to look at reducing fuels for fy 14 with a focus on high-priority work in the urban interface and using restoration efforts to calm list the hazardous fuels reduction outside. it's just simple. the problem with having increased funding it depression than only having so much of a budget to work with. >> we all understand the budget limitation and constrains, but it seems to me when you take the money from the program that would reduce the number of buyers you deal with, it seems to me when we move money from

one pot to another, taking it from hazardous fuels is pretty risky. i make comments and eye opening that we have a clearly defined but are aviation fleet should look like and when we look to the efficacy of oppression and hazardous fuel treatment, we need to be looking at the efficacy of our aerial firefighting as we were to reduce depression cuts. so it would seem in order to show the aircraft firefighting program come you got to track performance that. how do you do that? what are you using to determine aviation performance data? >> lester restarted to keep track where every return was put down and using a sample of effect to miss by talking to people on the ground, tracking conditions, we want to expand

that this year to the point that in the future of the aircraft will have a system on board to automatically track those rows and is a systematic review so they can learn where were the most effect is, which of the aircraft as part of the strategy of the way we designed our next-generation contract to have a mix of different aircraft and evil to evaluate performance we can decide which aircraft is the best by, which are the most effective airframe to pursue. basso working with us to bring on the next generation aircraft. >> is any situation that you have different buyers that require different types of suppression and clearly different types of aviation assets? ..

and down to the single engine air tankers that the department of interior provides. we need that for a mix of different aircraft to approach or to deal with the fires that you've described. there's so many different conditions across the country we have to deal with and that's why we need a mix of different aircraft to be a will to address the different conditions. >> senator udall. >> thank you, mr. chairman.

let me start by associating myself with your comments and the ranking members. i think you may be a little too, and when you talk about all loss. it feels like it isn't even entering the dance floor, and i agree we have to move in a way that takes into account what happens when we move those and in that spirit i want to turn and thank you for your expertise and for all the great work you are doing in colorado. let me ask you your opinion on this topic. i have a hard time, as i've said, understanding why omb would propose cutting the fire by removing the fuel source. and i've introduced legislation that would tap into the disaster relief fund program to help support wildlife mitigation projects. can you briefly address of ness and the cost of the wild fire

mitigation? >> i believe there is an abundance of evidence in the treatment in the right places they have lasting effects the positive for both the environment and fire suppression. i just was given a new study that's coming out today or tomorrow. ayaan that the analysis of 62 different fuel studies. and once again come in the bulk of the areas where treatments occur, there are positive benefits. there are some places where you may have standard replacing in the fires where it doesn't detain, but there's a preponderance of evidence such as the psychological restoration institutes work that shows that it does work. and i would encourage to be so bold that my love of the constitution is the congress has the power of the purse here and that i really appreciate you all addressing these issues. i did so vital that we've heard

for years an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of carrot. we need to do it. >> thank you. let me turn to you and turn to the topic of aircraft. you are well aware that the nda, the national defense authorization act provides the assistant transferring the c27j to the forest service. you provide an update on the receipt of the aircraft, and in particular have you had enough access to this he 27 to determine the specs and the potential modifications that may be needed and do you see any of their potential roadblocks in this process? >> currently we are waiting for the -- air force to complete the determination where the aircraft are surplus or not. as soon as that is completed and the determine that they are, we are ready to take possession of the aircraft. we have started to do some of

the analysis and as to what it would take to retrofit the tank so we can retrofit them and at the same time come to recognize that modifications will have to make on these to take a military aircraft and to make it into the mission. some of the equipment they are not necessary for the mission. so we have to make those modifications. >> let me let you know here we've been on the doorstep of the next generation of contracts as has the chairman and ranking member. >> i will also be on the doorstep of the air force if this doesn't happen as quickly as it needs to happen. i don't want to put you in the middle of this, but i want to let you know we need to get this done, so i'm going to be updated on that. you mentioned call when needed a contract is a few moments ago. you know fires don't wait for contracts to be signed, and you said you don't have access to these air resources. can you share with us the fiscal

effects of relying on these types of contracts? and think back to the c27j. would they be a cost-effective addition? >> on the resources they do come at a higher cost. that's why we work together with the department of interior to look at the resources that we needed at the start of the year, and that's what we tried to contract for. because it is definitely cheaper. call when needed contract would run about 1.5 to two times as much for the same resources as an exclusive use contract. so, we do everything we can to have the resources we need the start of the year but as the fire season develops and we need to bring on additional resources we can use call as needed and we use that with helicopters. as far as the c27j, they will be an efficient asset, the work we've done so far and we operate

from a little bit less than we are currently anticipating in the next generation, and that includes the requirement that we have to be able to also include in the operation the replacement costs. as we fly the aircraft we have to set aside additional funds so that when 20 years from now we have the funds set up in an account to buy another aircraft when you factor that in its more efficient than the current contract. the other part of the c27j which is essential to have part of our fleet that needs to be government owned contractor operated it gives that certainty that even under the most difficult situations we will have some aircraft fly. the contractors over the years have done an excellent job but they have to deal in the business world. we have seen things happen when we've had to shut down the

aircraft because of safety concerns and other things happen when a contractor decides not to fly in the middle of the fire season. if we have some government contractor operated and then the aircraft that provides the best air tankers >> you will to fight 20% to five years with 21st century aircraft. we're finding with a korean war era we we need the set or disposal and the c27j at our disposal. thank you. >> thank you come senator udall. i know colorado got pounded last year and i'd been to work closely with the committee. we appreciate your expertise and passion. senator heller is next but is being very gracious. set her risch and then senator heller.

>> thank you very much. this hearing is -- we are supposed to talk about what's going to happen this year and i am pleased to say we had the secretary at the national interagency fire center to look at the prospect and the readiness of the agency. i can tell you they are ready. the difficulty of course is they are ready for a certain amount. and if they get overwhelmed it's very difficult. they have excellent equipment and even better personnel. they are experienced and know how to do this and they are ready. they got tested on friday we had a fire 15 miles west of boise and the landscape is different whether it is colorado and eastern oregon, alaska, nevada, arizona. but we had a very dry spring and the result of that is that we

have very limited fuel services a 300-acre fire and the wind about 20 miles per hour in an ordinary jared would have been a several thousand acre. the fuel was low and they kept it to 300 acres. i'm glad we are talking about solutions because i think everyone now is aware of the problems we have and we need to talk about solutions. when i was governor we had a rule and we had the state sponsored rule of firm by the ninth circuit this year and i want to again thank them for the service cut into that. one of the benefits of that particular plan and one of the things we focus on was small communities that was talked about. and that has in the road less

area particular emphasis on prescription type of preparations for five years that come through their and we are hopeful with that. having said all of that, i have some suggestions and chief tidwell, these numbers will be interesting to you. we have about a little over 20 million acres in idaho. if you take out of that the road less and the wilderness and about ralf planned 5 million acres so you get down to seven or something like that. idaho has two sections and the other states got more than that. nonetheless we have 4.2 million acres. lester we took free and 30 million of timber off the

2.4 million acres and we got 50 million for the school's endowment programs. forest service on the other hand has to be, four times more than not, but compared to our 340 million you only took off 79 million. but last year 1.6. so a lot of the timber you could have taken office leaving on the ground malcolm it's probably not salvageable. the solution here seems almost too clear. if you step up he will get rid of the fuel and they will do a whole lot better. the difference is stunning compared to the three ander 30 million of ours where you have four or five times the amount of land so i hope he will

step up. it will do better else we move forward. as far as this is concerned, i know you have environmental people after you all the time but if you get on it in the spring and the spring fuel coming you will have less severe fires and i think there's a recognition of this coming and i hope the agency will go forward. thank you for holding this hearing. i think the solutions are important and we are coming together better on the fact we can do better and we are going to have to do better as we go forward with seemingly less resources and the climate that is more susceptible to fire. thank you for the good work you do and all of you for your support. i'm glad to hear that oregon has got pretty much the same view that idaho does. as far as the state grounds are concerned, we are doing really well.

i hope the federal government will be a good neighbor and will do not the long-range plan that's necessary. >> that of an relationship is important. >> your comment previously about last year we had three fires, the one of 82,000 acres, trinity ridge, but with foster ohio one of them from july to october. people sat out every night. we watched it night after night because of the hard work of the state and federal firefighters. we had a fire that was 150,000 acres. as we've paid our dues.

>> this has been just fascinating. this the center block of for the interest of time going to submit the boundary waters canoe area land exchange i want to urge you to take a good look at funding request submitted by the national forest and encourage you to continue to work with minnesota on the sale and exchange aspect of that issue. last time we had a hearing about wildfires. i think this is a crucial and you said, chief tidwell, that the season now is 60 days longer than when you were fighting

fires. the scientists at the forest service say that this is related to climate change? >> he said they did to years ago. has anything changed their mind? >> nothing has changed their mind. what we are seeing today in a product of the changing climate, not only the locker fire season, with the record temperatures that we have seen to set every year, the relative humidity is reset every year and so it's all part of it. these are the conditions we have to now deal with. >> we are talking about funding for a while there my slogan was going to be a return on investments. that wasn't a good slogan for a campaign. that lasted for about a day.

i want everyone to think about this. we are paying the price. what we are talking about are trade-offs here. a lot is about funding and air tankers and fire, taking money away from the negative feedback loop. so i just want everyone to understand that we are paying a price now for climate change. we are paying it now and we are making traces of a very painful choices on the basis of that. i think that is a very important thing for everyone to talk

about. we need to have this conversation and what are we doing to mitigate it and what are the smartest way is for example, and you talked about the body of mass coming off of that. you did, too he did it seems we could use that biomass -- it is carbon that we can store on-site. it is carbon that we can use biomass to do combined heating power, for example, in these kind of communities. i wanted to ask the chief tidwell, this idea that

ms. jungworth talked about forming a citizen corps, she talked about people trained in fire fighting in the communities 120,000 firefighters. one of the issues regarding that, how feasible is that in your opinion, and what would the issues be in doing that? >> well, we work with the states to carry out the programs they need to have to be able to train up the local fire or volunteer fire departments. simbel are able to respond. we get a lot from the local and volunteer fire. they are some of the first folks to respond to the local fires. so we are using part of what we are talking about now. it's something we want to continue to be given to work with the states and counties and local fire to do what we can to

provide the assistance to make sure the folks have the equipment they need the boss of the training they have to have so that when they respond they can do it in a safe way and make sure they come home at night. one about sequestration coming and could you talk a little bit about the impact sequestration of have on your ability to fight fires. >> this year we've had to reduce them rare of firefighters that we provide by about 500 to put that in context, we normally provide 10,480. we are also going to have a few lessons. we are offsetting this intact by doing some things the firefighter is the leader. the normal time and some of staffing at we can call for

additional resources and call for additional contracts to make sure that we can respond when we need to in the appropriately with the right number of resources. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and again, thanks to you and the ranking member. >> i want to think you, senator, for hammering away at this climate change question. we all saw recently that we are talking about 400 parts per million with respect to concentration of co2 in the atmosphere, and this was a noaa finding reading taken at the noaa observatory in hawaii. i appreciate you bringing this up. senator heller is next. >> the number of hearings in the

house and senate that is always a topic of interest to most. i want to begin by congratulating senator franken on your grandchild. i didn't realize you were so young. i'm expecting my second by the end of the year. >> i blame my children. [laughter] i want to delve into further as most have on this issue and i want to thank everyone who spent time and those that testified today for your input given that this is the topic of discussion that could allow the from directions. we heard about climate change and i want to talk about another topic you can discuss for example sage crass lifting. we had 944 individual wildfires last year. it burned over 613,000 acres.

we think we burn rhode island every year in the state of nevada. obviously the trend is troubling. we have done a lot of litigation and there are examples of that in the state of nevada. the leak is a good example of their efforts and how aggressive it can be mitigating some of these big fires. we have small town in the battles that run them around the communities to make sure any fire that may occur be lessened of the potential damage. i want to talk about the threat of the endangered species act of the sage grass and i think it moves over a 11 western states and includes nevada. most of those of course of a

have the federal land management in putting. as i said i don't think we can talk about the sage grass, about this without talking about the threat of wildlife to prevent a lifting of the sage grass. our government steve agencies stifel first and working tirelessly to ensure we have the tools in place to satisfy the needs and their ecosystem. we are getting closer to the 2015 deadline where the listing decision is to be made and it's important for the agencies to partner. as i spoke earlier about mitigation i believe one of the contractors is in the state of nevada and i want to congratulate my staff for getting that in place because the impact of will have on the wild fires in nevada and as a

result the impact on the ecosystem. but my question is what are the federal agencies to thing to partner with stakes. >> there is a team of folks led by the department interior in the state's and the interest groups to be able to come up with a strategy so that we can continue to provide a habitat that's necessary to be able to maintain the state grass and prevent. some of the things that have developed is to understand the impact to the species especially listed species. in the state today we recognize

that the biggest threat to like the spotted owl will list from firefighters and it's essential to get them to be able to maintain the habitat. so, as we move forward with the difference is the essential that we factor in the need to be able to restore these ecosystems and to be able to use fire in the ecosystem to be doubled to recover the sage grass. s bed with me give comments and suggestions. this is something i brought up with the secretary in my office and that this specifically whether or not a farmer and rancher can help stop a fire. we have a lot of wild fires must leave from lightning and we will have ranchers, cattlemen out on the plains that watch lightning hit, because of fire but they're being told by federal agencies

you are not allowed to go over there and pointed out. you said most it's the other 2% and those 2% i would suggest what be helpful if we could allow these men and women that are out there attending. they would have access or the ability to put that fire out. now they are being told they can't. it needs to be addressed by working through the local volunteer fire department to make sure that those ranchers and those farmers have an understanding of fire behavior and the right equipment. they can do it any way they can safely come home. that is my number one concern of those folks. often they are out there right after the fire gets started so

they are in a very good. the volunteers have responded to go out there and have not come home. we can do it in a way said the of the training they need and the equipment they need. the thing i would ask is that they would work for the volunteer fire did hutment come through the state foresters to be able to make sure they have the right training and equipment. >> mr. kennon, thank you. >> thank you, chairman i want to thank you and the chairman for the timeliness of this. and chief tidwell, i want to start by thanking the incredible people who've responded from the forest service in new mexico over the last week or so. it's been incredible the resources put on. my first concern was going to

the resources and we've had an incredible response. we also have a great response and i want to thank you for the resources coming from oregon. you know, we have a situation where in addition to the active friars on sunday night, i watched as one of our pre-monsoon thunderstorms rolled through the state's. they moved just outside of albuquerque. we think there were about a thousand lightning strikes during that storm and not a lot of rain to come with all of that. as a result, there were emissions in that area and a volunteer and forest service resources were able to respond in the kinkos carry. -- i want to suggest to the

chairman that we ask the omb to come and have this kind of a conversation directly with omb said that they can explain to us in our interpretation of the act. because they're seems to be a broad consensus on this committee that they are not implementing it the way that it was designed to be we all have an interest to make sure we do implement that law and we get ahead of this. and to that, to that and i want to lay out the contrast and then get your ideas. in the last few years we've had to move the biggest fires in history. in 2011 we had 150,000 plus acres. in 2012 that was an eclipse, the largest fire in the state's history of the time. in 2012 whitewater burned about three injured thousand and just like the acreage numbers you

would think. this is an example of how things really go badly. but when you really look at the impact on the ground, and you look at the fact that whitewater and i think over half of that was actually back room for a sample. then you look what is happening in terms of the flood intact, mineralized soil and the conditions. they lose consciousness for at least the rest of my lifetime. there is a and how they manage across the country. when you look at the accommodation of with the national forest to reductions, progressive management, ecosystem restoration and letting the fires burn where appropriate to reduce them on a very cost-effective basis.

we see cool players in the drought conditions like last year where it burned. the lessons that should be learned from the places where this accommodation of hazardous fuel reduction of good fire management where those have been shown to reduce the impact on the community where we are really doing things well. have those lessons been applied, and our way reflected in the agency budget? because i did what you are hearing from both folks on this committee. we need more prevention to reduce the kuran long run. >> we have applied the lessons we've learned over the years especially when it comes to the use of the prescribed fires in

the nation for years and you described very well the difference that it makes when we are using the prescribed fire in the right place when we do get a fire started it will still burn a lot of acres but in some j-lo intensity the watershed doesn't have the impact and the country comes back rather quickly and we don't see the level of flooding that we often see from the fires. so we are applying. there's just. between 65 to 82 million acres of the national forest that we need some form of restoration. the majority of that is going to be with fire. but there's also a component of 12.5 million that we need to be using the timber harvest. but in the department of interior and the forest service, we have done case studies on

hundreds, closed the house and different situations where we've done fuel treatment and then head fire in this treated areas. 90% of them shoots been effected to reduce the severity of the wild fire. we know we need to do a better job to be able to quantify it economically, that we know it works. so these are things we need to be able to move forward with is to do some additional research, to be double to put the economic to the benefit of these projects because we have all seen it on the ground without any question. when they are done at a large enough scale and the right place is on the land that it will reduce the severity of the fire and make suppression efforts much more effective and makes it a lot safer for our fire fighters. >> i want to thank you for your efforts in that regard because i just hate to see us out of

frustration and protective fire management in order to fund the real need that we have to respond to an urgent fire situation. every dollar that we put into those prevention activities, and creating healthy. we have dollars we have to spend down the road for fire management after we have a catastrophic fire like the ones we are seeing now. thank you mr. chairman. >> with respect to the office of budget and management it is well taken. my understanding is omb has never testified. but i want you to know why in your important. replete is so important. we are going to stay at this until we turn ellen b. important in terms and carrying out flame

act. it seems to me given the fact that westerners -- it ought to get to wake up on the point of prevention and the act. i look forward to working with you until we turn omb around on this. i appreciate. >> on the geographic issues or anything else from this committee is united not the fact that the flame that isn't being implemented in the way that we intend not to. thank you mr. turney and ranking minority member of schakowsky for calling this hearing and for those that testified. this has been enlightening, informative and also for arizona i grew up in northern arizona in

the town of snowflake surrounded by a lot of areas there. when the fire burned in 2002, i flew up there to just -- it made me sick just to see so many in our community and other communities who still 11 years later have not recovered. i went up camping in the mountains just near forest lakes a few weeks ago. and one little valley the was scared the fire but looking all around at the trees and the areas that will recover for a couple hundred years. and i thought that less than two years ago, the wallo fire. i traveled and chief tidwell, you were there. we experienced exactly what

ms. vilsack said has been proven scientifically over and over and over again. the peace treatment worked. we drove on the road just outside. to the left for the and treated areas and to the right with the treated areas just the road separated them. to the left was a moonscape, everything obliterated, won't recover for a couple hundred years. to the right, just across a little two-lane road with treated areas. the fire truck immediately to the ground, scorched a few trees of the bottom but everything was intact. it showed a anecdotally what we see over and over and over again committee and now it's been proven again and again scientifically if we treat these areas kites or that economically and sees these communities and

saves the endangered species over and over again. but it's just part cringing to see some of the impediments that are still there and to not keep us from treating more of the forests, not just the community and interfaith but deep into the forest as well. a lot of good work has been done by the senator. and please come give my remarks to dr. covington. but you have studied the cost of the schultz fire. you mentioned a treaty that is important of the impact with an investment of 14 million could have reduced the cost of the fire. that was about 15,000 acres and then the floating comes. can you talk about that it's not just above five-year that is devastating but in particular the monsoons that have come

after. can you talk a little bit about that? >> as you reach captive is a 15,000-acre fire. a significant part of it burns severely. and the actual cost of playing with fire, will develop $14 million. but what was unanticipated was among this event that happened 29 days later but basically a rainstorm that parked over the area and lead to a tremendous event that moved debris, rocks, incredible amounts of material off the flow it's come a very fluid around flagstaff and into the downstream communities. and so, it's interesting to note that we could have treated every acre of that fire, which you don't really mean to do. if the data shows and the

experiment shows you can get by with about 30% of the area treated we could have treated every acre for thousand dollars which is high for treatment cost. and we could have avoided for every dollar spent nine to $10 of damage costs. so the question becomes can we afford not to treat because of you either pay at the beginning or you pay at the back end. and if you look at how that cost is spread around the country in the lot of people appreciate the fact that the costs -- there are four federal agencies the were below cost. there were three state agencies. the county, the city, non-profit organizations. so it's a social service agency. and the citizens. the citizens still live in fear because they don't know what do we might be delivered back to the community.

>> three years later. my recollection is that there was a young girl was killed and swept away by flood waters there does well. >> that's right. >> one quick question if i could, for chief tidwell. again and again we've seen some of the money that is put aside for housing this, fuel production cuts to aid and additional money requested for the land acquisition and i know this is outside of your pay grade but can you kind of give us some rationale or explanation for that given what we know about the value of the hazardous toole reduction? >> welcome the additional request that we have in the 14 budget for more land and water conservation funding for acquisition and conservation easement, there's not a direct tradeoff. the purpose for those programs is to respond to what we hear from the public. the need to be able to acquire

these to be able to maintain the key habitats, but also provide recreational access. and in most every case, it actually reduces our administrative costs. these are the challenges of some very difficult trade-offs we have to make and it's one of those things the department of interior has proposed a very innovative approach to be able to provide a different revenue stream to make it a mandatory system that will allow us to be able to move forward and require these parcels. so we have to find a balance of lead in the field work but do restoration and provide to be able to acquire these key parcels of land. it takes all of it and that is one of the trilogy of situations we are in and we need your help. we need the work of congress for the mix so that we can move

forward. >> thank you. >> senator come thank you. we look forward to working with you on this having watched -- i think that is why this point but prevention that you and others are making is what it's all about here the but i look forward to. particularly as we look at these issues in the wild land, urban face of the so-called description. the business is placing a burden and a threat on state and private land. in effect you have these five years reading of the federal land causing significant losses on private land and of course

the salles that. in lake view, for an example, people were coming back to the fire and i guess folks from the legislature interested as well in doing bipartisan good work in terms of the state's federal relationship of. -- i think particularly given the fact that folks want to be located in these areas close to the forest, wildland, interfaith areas, this is an issue and concern that is the increase in our part of the world and certainly lots of other places. what do you think the federal government ought to be doing in terms of staking out a similar policy in this area? what we call in in oregon the complete coordinated system of

fire response. we must work together and to work together very well and in most cases. a natural tension that has to do with the difference in fire policy and part of that is your paid by the land over to fight aggressively on their land. different management objectives on those land and on the forest land so there's the tension we face regularly. in lake view the example. we will do initial attacks together. it doesn't matter the color of land. that works off well. they can do as he basked. it's about getting the mix right. very early on the senator talk about the strategic -- what is the best strategically to invest funds. i think it is hazardous toole,

initial. it's the volunteer fire systems that come our way. and really in addition to this funding pieces, and it's how it is on the landscape. we do that by active management of that landscape so there are some funding pieces and policy pieces that can change as well. >> chief, would you like to add that? >> what i would add is that we need to continue to do a better job of coordination, and it needs to be up front before the fire season, before the fire starts. this is one of the key lessons that we learned from the situation last summer that we have to do a better job and we have to do it across the board. i think if we do that up front

toward nations of that when we do get a fire started, everyone is together about the actions that need to be taken. i think that will help but that's the only thing i agree with what mr. has said. we need to do a better job and the forest service has done a better job to coordinate the state agencies that the community's prior. >> let me ask one other question. perhaps we can bring you into this, assistant secretary, we've heard a lot of very favorable comments about the community wild fire protection plant. and these are the plans in the local communities get together and that the grassroots level make some judgments about their priorities for fuel treatment. and in some states like new mexico apparently they have been so successful they are requiring the communities in the state to erect a we develop these wild

fire protection plans. ms. jungworth, to get you in on this, what is your experience in terms of actually protecting communities and reducing the cost? in other words, we are looking for approaches they give you both of the protection you want adelbert cost than the approaches that we are seeing today. what do you see with respect to those in your judgment? >> in california as we know we have many community wildfire plan and they've been in place many years. many are not yet it now. the virtue of those is the land owners are involved. the volunteer fire departments are involved. the office of emergency service is involved, and the forest service. so they are getting the land treatment done in a strategic

manner that they are also building our prescribed fire capacity and trained and coordinated and then our fired response. as a result of that we have the fire safety councils that are in existence. they meet every monday and they've been doing that for ten years so we are getting the infrastructure run the landscape built out and when we have the fire even as we had last year right around my community we have a local area advisor from the community who worked with the fire department and help people understand where the roads were, where the fuel breaks for, where the water was because that, when you get teams into a community, they no fire. but they don't know that landscape. as a result, we are a able to have a better response. it is a long-term investment, but there will be a tipping point. and that i think is with the allin d needs to start thinking

about. they also need to think about what are the numbers that justify the budget? >> the product for reducing cost -- >> [inaudible] >> setting the process for hazardous fuels and allocating the dollars for the house for this tool part of what we look for in the criteria is to see the wpp plan. so it's very much part of what we are looking at when we allocate the dollars we have for the house for this fuel. part of the strategy effort now working with communities in partnering up at local level was working on those plans as part of the overall -- one of the solutions to the challenges we have in the hazardous fuel program. >> senator murkowski. >> thank you mr. chairman and

for your testimony this morning. let me ask a question about -- we have all been talking about the flame act and how it hasn't been working as we intended. it's been suggested what we need to do is treat these and other emergencies and fund them out as a budget account for the agency. the concern of course there is that you do that and you remove i guess the incentive to keep in place cost-containment strategy. mr. topik, you mentioned in your comments and you actually put forth several different proposals as to how we can work to reduce. you mentioned a disaster prevention fund. anybody else can jump in here. if we move to that free more how

do you lose the incentive work to deal with the cost containment if you know every year the congress is going to come forward and magically we are going to create more money to pay for these mega fires. how big of a problem is this? >> i don't see that as a problem as long as we continue the level of focus we have on making the best decisions. and then realizing that we are always driven by. cost containment is around dealing with financial management and not fire. the thing that's more important is for us to be able to do the preventive work, to do the field work up front. but when we do have a large fire, when we can recognize that what we are up against and eliminate the ineffective tactics, the things that in the

past i personally have a lot myself -- i'm retired and it had zero of fact. built mile after mile of line and we burned through the next day because they didn't recognize or understand what i was up against. today we have that science. as long as we can maintain that focus to make the right decision coming and then we need to be held accountable. we need to be doubled to respond and to continue our large reviews so that we can learn from that, but i think we can have both. the budget doesn't provide an incentive. the incentive is doing the right thing on the ground to make sure firefighters are safe and we are doing everything we can to keep the community's safe. that's what drives our decisions today and what has driven the decision in the past. i believe we can continue to do both. >> i mentioned to the chairman here that one thing that we seem

to have a difficult problem with the congress is being productive when it comes to any form of prevention with its prevention as it relates to the health care cost for prevention as it relates to the health and safety of our forests and wild lands. i am a form firm believer in how we can work to implement some of these policies really from a more holistic perspective. this is going to be good flow all -- and good for all for the people of safety that live in and around and also from the financial perspective. i look forward to working with you thank you. you are being way too logical obviously for the purpose of the federal government in this area. because clearly -- >> [inaudible] [laughter] >> the message hasn't gone through with clear choice. you can spend more modest

amounts on the front end. you can spend your time investing substantially more money to play ball as the infernos wrap their way through the rest. i want for the federal witnesses because i know both of them and talked to the chief. i want both of you to know i am going to stay at this until we turn this around. we have spent the better part of two hours talking about prevention issues, talking about tanker questions, talking about the flame act, and i just think our priorities are out of whack. that's what you've heard democrats and republicans talk

about. when one of these rips through a community no one is sitting around talking about democrats and republicans. why it seems year after year the federal government can't get this right. we have a lot of the very good people in this country. in the communities mr. decker made the point that the partnership and leading off the federal land in ve investing the combination of the fire is getting bigger and hotter and the season lasting longer the administration seems to be as concerned as i am about 400 parts per million with respect to carbon dioxide. we also have to deal of in thin kind of question on the focus of new prevention carrying out of the mac as intended in the good suggestions that you've made

mr. topik as well. thank you for your patience and suffice it to say next steps. by the way, with that of the energy committee is adjourned. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations]

secretary of state john kerry urged the israelis and palestinians to engage in peace talks ahead of his trip to the region next week. his remarks came monday at a speech before the american jewish committee. this is. [applause] >> i want to thank the leadership and the membership of over a quarter of a century he's helped distinguish this organization like no one else,

and of course your new president, stan. i think you every single one of you for all that you do for as israel. for human rights, civil rights, all around the world, women's rights, fighting racism, intolerance and torture. thank you for all that you do to fight anti-semitism and around the world. i am proud that i just appointed ira forman to lead the fight against anti-semitism from the state department. you have a very strong partner in ira. ..

[applause] >> to define the

relationship bandleader in strengthening the relationship you have built bridges during difficult times and hopeful one said we have seen them all with this journey. i know many lookit the landscape today and you are not inclined to act it is too much turmoil or too risky and people are quick to call this moment too difficult in time. too dangerous, too daunting. i am understand that temptation. and i fully recognize this -- the challenges and predicaments israel finds itself kyle also firmly believe this is a hopeful time. if we choose to make it it could be a time of possibility and promise and with your help it could be a time of peace. i know there is no issue so

close to your heart's as the future of israel security the threat from iran, the unrest and the questions surrounding chemical weapons from the air of spring status of the peace process that is our they a process at all and all of these matters tremendously and above all to israel's future. that is what i want to talk about i have a great honor to become secretary of state and visited israel in march, april, and a. i will be back soon. [applause] each time that i go the deep personal connection that i feel these are actually

bonds then reach back into my own family tree including relatives i never knew about until the last decade or relatives that perished in the holocaust relatives i thought about in many ways like when i laid a wreath on behalf of the united states and it was an expert very privileged to spend that day alongside survivors a and veterans to sit at that ceremony with prime minister did on yahoo! on one side a man who i believe can lead into a new era that we want to see. these personal bonds have been reinforced by a quiet walks to the sacred spaces of neighborhoods through the bustle of downtown tele-tv in these are the bonds that i felt to my first trip

almost 30 years ago 1986 as my friends and a group of 15 jewish friends from massachusetts i stood on top of these spectacular summit where 2,000 years ago 1,000 marchers made the ultimate sacrifice in unison and in name of defending the ancestral homeland to the jewish people we together looked down across the desert across the press of the press of this over the dead sea to stand in the very spot where every new soldier begins his/her service to swear an oath to honor the history of the people of israel to defend the future of their state. our guide instructed us off after a long discussion after howard have been door

how it was written and if it was accurate we had a debate and we all voted that what had happened to have been to the way it described in he instructed us to stand up and fall out speaking speaking jewish. [speaking hebrew] [applause] the state of israel lives. and we shouted and then we listened and we heard our voices bouncing off the cavern on the other side of the mountains they came back and it was as if the voices of those who had fought coming back to us. these bonds i share with the modern-day challenges one side got to see the state in the year when someone

actually let me fly the israeli air force jet. [laughter] on that unforgettable flight from the luncheon we were having he said senator, i hope you did not eat too much. we go flying. [laughter] i said sounds good and we love to betty and he said the minute we are off you take it for everyone to. so they took off and i got to see with my own eyes out narrow the borders of israel are in hall foldable security is there is simply no margin for error and by interested that and in a matter of minutes at 1.my private radioed as senator you're about to go over egypt. turn. [laughter]

so i fly over very quickly and i came close that day to violate the airspace of egypt and jordan. [laughter] then i turned the plane upside-down and i saw the sky below me and the earth's it was weird and i thought finally i see the middle east clearly, upside-down. [laughter] but these days american air force pilots do not let me take the control much to the relief of the passengers but i want to share that when we touched down and i walk down the steps of the plane as says united states of america i carry with me with president obama whose administration i am proud to say has done more than any before to ensure israel's future is strong and prosperous.

[applause] make no mistake. the president and the united states and i share your unshakeable commitment to security and every time we land i think of one of the most prominent successes of coal the mightier who says we only want what is given naturally to be masters of our own fate, not of the others. central to israel's founding is the belief this state in the jewish people must be able to control their own destiny and that is why and how it has built a thriving democracy and why it made the desert to blue to build the modern economy, why it is built for the strongest military is on the planet

and has shown us strength in the face of existential dread specter as we look ahead, i believe and i thank you will agree, the best way to truly injured israel secure today is by ending once and for all the conflict of the palestinians by summoning the courage to achieve peace by having a negotiated revolution that as the results into state for two people each table to have their aspirations in a homeland of their own. we are all committed to that [applause] i come here today to a firm to you we're deeply secured -- committed to israel's security and they understand when the prime minister

netanyahu says i have to guarantee the security of my country. he does. he will. but what does that look like? certainly it is more than the absence of four. for challenges i'd like any other, it means to secure an be secure in its future as is -- as a jewish state but also a democratic state and also economically thriving thriving, as security for israel means freedom from pernicious attacks from its legitimacy from its neighbors on the world stage in security grows with the empowerment of moderates sterol the regions of the extremist are isolated rather than empowered and

lasting security requires regional stability with open markets that will let israelis concentrate to build up the one negative let them concentrate. the place for this happens best is in a strong and secure israel peacefully alongside the palestinian cause i will tell you today examined every possibility are all parameters i will tell you a realistic when state solution it does not exist for either side. [applause] i have been traveling to israel as secretary of state now for just the last three

months i have been involved intimately in these challenges the last three decades and as you know, i come to this issue not is a stranger but as a friend, a proven friend of 30 years or more. i have gotten to know every israeli prime minister and many kings and presidents over those who have ruled that in that time i have heard of the arguments for why it is too difficult to end this conflict. some if you are skeptical. summer even skeptical and it is hard. after all there is a reason why this problem has not been solved yet. i understand the disappointment we felt with madrid and also -- oslo but they do know many talented leaders to work tirelessly for peace without realizing the ultimate goal.

i remember having lunch with their fact and during the course of the lunch he looked at me and said that is my great regret. i should have said yes. but i don't think we can live through regrets now or we have that opportunity. still believe peace is achievable more than ever and i know it is worth fighting for. [applause] we also know that cynicism has never solved anything. it has never given birth to a state and it won't. challenges and not met and israel has only gotten this far because they're willing

to defy the odds but how else could you make fertile land through the desert? why should any start? if we care about the future of iart? if we care about the future of israel as we do and meanders stand, we should recognize this time is a significant opportunity but also a responsibility. some say of the aftermath it is too messy. to certain but in reality the dawn of a new era is exactly the kind i will cast the relationships to cast the narrative with a new generation that is starting to make its voice heard. some are wary because of israel's experience after the withdrawal of cause of

or lebanon you have no idea how many times i hear that and what did we get? we got rockets but faults, it is worth remembering these withdrawals are unilateral. they're not part of a negotiated peace treaty that guaranteed strong guarantees and certainly not the part that agrees to be a demilitarized state or identity we know peace agreements with jordan on either hand were bilateral but yielded a much better results but it is worsening and working diligently on the issue of cyanide to have new to the agreed security arrangements to ensure a

palestinian state that is not prone to future attacks against israel for a cut its number one including hezbollah up. up puppet of ivory and it has amassed rockets and attacked israel and of course, iran itself. so let me repeat. the united states will prevent iran from acquiring a nuclear weapon. it is not prevention it is no weapon, no containment, prevention. [applause] now i ask you to understand that if it as a stand here a

friend of israel as i have my 100 percent voting record i can tell you we must recognize the palestinians fundamental aspirations to live in peace of their own state with its own clear borders, that has to be our mission as well. [applause] i assure you that a stable palestinian state with a shared borders and a flourishing economy will only strengthen israel's security and israel's future. the palestinian children i have seen, the planes -- the kids were but it that much was made that out of the bombed out buildings and

tear marshall lived there ready else does and where and as their children do. of their lives should not be determined by terrorist. of emphasize is not a substitute, believe me, of palestinians off vote that is why last weekend at the dead sea i described and economic investment the initiative for the territories led by a time of prayer in but the scope in the process of anything that preceded it. we know this conflict is not because of problems in the middle east. indeed it has often been used to woo those who didn't want to popular but make no

mistake but we will result in serious consequences for both. i a understand many if you are asking for what happens in the coming days will dictate what happens in the coming decades. we are running out of time and possibility and be clear in if we do not succeed now and i am raising the stakes, if we do not we may not get another chance. so we can't but the disappointment of the past

hold the future prisoner. we can let the absence of peace you find yourself in a negative spiral of responses that could literally neece client -- slammed the door we already agreed that the insidious campaign to keep -- delegitimize is gaining speed and there's less to choose between being a jewish state our democratic state but it cannot her been -- prevents from being both at once. the consequences do not live only in the distant future it is not just afar off

concern there are some very real short-term consequences to consider because the status quo is simply not sustainable. [applause] a stalemate today will not remain one tomorrow. blood is static today will not be static tomorrow because it has been so for so long and given the options but in this conflict the simple fact is tomorrow is not guaranteed to look like today and the people who think somehow there is greater security and fewer people thought occurred to us there in a delusion that that somehow can't be sustained. it cannot. think about what happens next door. the palestinian authority has committed itself to a policy of nonviolence.

in that region of think of the cost of that to build institutions or security arrangement up until lease recently not one died from on anything from the west bank and tell there was a settler killed about one month ago. he did an extraordinary job to build the security forces and the institutions that we live for to continuing the efforts with the new prime minister but the fact is allowed to fail to ask yourselves what will replace it? what will happen if the economy implodes or security forces to solve?

if it fails? surely something much worse for israel's interest for fear region and the failure of the leadership of could invite the rise of what we want to avoid the same extremism in the west bank we have seen from southern lebanon or the gaza strip. before anybody gives up we have to ask if we are prepared to live with permanent conflict with the possibility of civil disobedience and the possibility of a civil-rights movement always looming around the corner if they don't agree to come back to the table the palestinians have said they will go to the un to join more human organizations despite the best efforts of the united states they could get more votes in their favor and last time we only

got nine votes against. the palestinians have also threatened to take it to the international criminal court. yes united states of america will always have israel's back and we will always stand up publicly both be stronger if we had more company? because of the determination there is a different future possible for israel. i ask you today but we ask you to recognize this can be different but this time it actually has to be. people have spent so much time limit to what has not worked in the past i believe we have forgotten to focus on what the future could look like if we have faith of security and where

schoolchildren can run around. i have seen the hundreds of casings that are displayed that have been fired out of gaza. i went into a bunker where kids had to hide with rockets coming in from lebanon. i know that fear. piquancy a difference where you have a world of the extremist and the state sponsors no longer use the conflict as an excuse for any number of hidden agendas. and we can see the errors and that is increasing and isolated and think of the economic benefits for the average citizen the governor of the bank of israel said it could boost the gdp by as much as 6% and an agreement that resulted in the normalization of relations for the arab world promised by the peace initiative went and the arab league boycott

of israeli goods to open huge new markets and bring new foreign investment and imagine the possibilities of the extraordinary array of sites that have become available from jordan through the west bank and into israel. the and of political and logistical barriers to turn televisa into a global home of finance and technology and it is extraordinary and where it is real currently underperforms its potential with other countries in the region there are limits of the historical archaeological sites as well as modern attractions. my friends, quite simply simply, peace pays. and israel's vibrant society and economy scientific and technological achievements, all of them with seven he received the

recognition they deserve on the world's stage with the barriers broken down and the ability to move within the region and the seas, recognition, governmen ts of peace. that is the future and what it could produce progress the bible says there is a future for the man of peace. as men and women of peace that is the future we need to pursue. have fasted to think today about what happens if this fails and i have asked you to think about what happens if this succeeds. the third thing i want to ask you to think about is the most important, i want you to do more than just consider the consequences but recognize you have a part to play to choose which feature will become our own. you should also know you will not be alone. the arab league came here in washington and 8r ready to

take steps forward because they reaffirmed the peace initiative a different name and added you will have all land swap for the first time. in fact everywhere i go, literally, china, japan, is this issue is raised. young people ask me about the conflict in what they can do to help end it. i had visits year from foreign minister of brazil and new zealand the first thing out of their mouth was how can we help with the middle east peace process? i asked where is that coming from? you are in new zealand? they said yes because it affects all of the recruitment and arguments of radicalism we face and they see the prospects. everyone is invested in a resolution. everyone has able to play. many conversations have led me to believe that both

prime minister netanyahu and the president to be a partner in peace and the minister here also believes in peace and she is working hard to move the process forward and is a friend, and a valued colleague and i know you will hear from her later and i thank you for her genuine efforts to try to think and act differently. >> did this is made stronger third peace agreement and she is committed to make that a reality. all of these leaders are committed. we're all committed. so no one has a stronger voice in this than the american jewish community. you could play a critical part to ensure israel's long-term security. . .