us at booktv activity c-span.org. .. >> the purpose of my book is

to consider is the pattern of secularization in the united states and elsewhere in a new way in though wes. one thing i can say for sure is the new book does not think of a small canvas it is about god, western civilization, men, women, th eology, as sociology, and if we left out the big theme that i am sure the critics will put them in as they had generally do but but with intellectual trespassing i offer this thought. the question how society that was wednesday become less so is an interesting of the world and especially if you spend time in western europe it is a boutique practice despite the massive dancing to influence it has had on art law and history

until very recently of the not only the achievements that span the very pinnacle of human accomplishment. even without going to europe , religion holds over the western civilization remains the object of armchair fascination. after all was noted our laws custom literature no more to the gao christianity than any other single tradition. that is one reason why all of us believers or agnostics or atheist have a board interest to figure out of this puzzle all of western secularization because we carry remnants of the judeo-christian tradition inside is if we want to or not it is part of what you call the individual cultural dna. once upon a time of what was called kristin dumb their judeo-christian cody tilled the details of daily life in

tel don to dusk not to mention birth marriage and death and other milestones obviously this is true no more for many modern western people a growing number of us agreed the milestones was no religious free market of many are born without baptize to have children without being married. some have a civil marriages -- civil instead of religious. mini it died via -- our bodies are incinerated rather than prayed over the ground as was commanded this is a few examples of the sea change known as secularization. how did it happen aha? how did they go from societies negative afeard

guide to societies that now would cheer him? that is the puzzle literally many times during the years that went into the book that felt as if i was at a table with a giant jigsaw puzzle spread out in front of me men-- they would fall into place when you discover a pattern the neighbor not isolated than windup toy they should industrialization and modern science rationalism family change urbanization, where do each of these separate forces fit into the big picture? i came to the conclusion the conventional story line although full of truth in certain ways have gotten something pretty big round.

the maternity pressed together all the pieces of the puzzle that looks great from a distance but said the book how the west voskhod came about and then of a like to explain what is gone missing to offer a sketch for this contrarian view. the first problem to explain secularization is with the historical tie my. it is understood by most great modern thinkers and also mediocre wives as a linear process in which religion slowly but surely vanishes from the earth or from the more sophisticated precinct. as people become more educated and prosperous, the

collective story goes, the same people find themselves more skeptical of religion from excessive find themselves the less need to for the consolation and somewhere in the long run religion or that christianity will just die out. this could take a while. to famously predicted his parable of a mad man it would take hundreds of years for the news of god's death to reach everyone. but then among secular thinkers that in the long run that god will be dead. but exactly which haugh -- would do this is unclear but this has been assumed by many people to be inexorable

likely it candles on a birthday cake. the religious faithful will sooner or later go out until nobody is left. then there are several logical problems including insurmountable ones. first, the conventional story line does not describe the reality of christianity persistence in the world for american sociologists rodney start to is a contrary and wrote a lively as say that is a classic called secularization rest in peace and open with an entertaining review of predictions of the demise of the christian faith going back through 1660 up through the present day including but not limited to secular profits as frederick the great, and others. but as implied people proclaiming the death of god did not get the fact there

own obituary was written before the deity. he points out the old lady has sung expired as the time predicted and as a side note, and you atheist for locally frustrated of this point* of christianity's persistence would be the first to agree with him. so that his problem number one. here is another one. contrary to widely held stereotypes belief in the christian died is not social class or education but this is deeply ingrained. when the president of united states and thinking the repeated a stereotyped to single out jobless people who supposedly'' cling to their guns and their religion the implication was clear religion is something that embittered import people do the president was

just reiterating the view offered many times before that christianity is karl marx famous opiate of the masses. many people take it for granted that the better off have less use for a ride in a smart and educated have less use for religion. obama was up the only one to put that stereotypes out there. to lead the evangelicals as largely poor and uneducated easy to command. everyone knows these but it those who believe in the stereotypes know the truth. once again if the conventional account were

correct if predicted to was religious and why did we would expect the pork and less educated they are the more religious they would be. the fact the stereotypes are not correct to point* to where the opposite is true that means a conventional understanding of secularization has missed something. an example, of british historian has done a fascinating work between 1870 and 84 teen. his book is called class and religion to new document during that period the number of worshipers each way up the social ladder. but the poorest districts have the lowest rates of church attendance in those upper middle-class of populations have the highest. in other words, and in

contrast of the highest court out shining the upper class is seems to have been the opposite victorian london. make a small proportion of adults attended the maine sunday church services. british historian another expert makes the same point* of religiosity that the working class were not religious in the middle class for this churchgoing bastions of simple morality. but much the same pattern could be found in denies states and subversive that economic and intellectual sophistication natural enemies of the state. consider a book published in 2010 by a sociologists

putnam and campbell called the mayor can grace. our religion unites us than divides blind negative device as a refutes that it is a lower class affair. during the first half of the 20th century century, college-educated but dissipated more in church than those with less education. that pattern changed during the '60s that saw a church attendance falloff among the educated but then he merged another pattern those that tended to rise again this trend is contrary to any idea that religion is now providing solace only to the disinherited or that higher education in subverts religion. " end quote. so there are pockets where god is a minority view and

among professors at ivy league schools or among other scientist, these are exceptions, not the rule. some movie in research summarized of american social class coming apart, political scientist makes the same point* the upper 20 percent coming data from the surveys show is more likely than a 30% to believe in god day and go to a church. 61% of the maturity say they didn't go to church or relieving guide and the upper class is 42%. despite the common belief the white working class is the most religious group in society the trip from religiosity is far greater

so the headline on msnbc once put it who was going to use church? not rethink. so going to show neither does the ph.d.. here comes problems three is as other people have supposed? this is another explanation with intuitive appeal. much of europe were shattered much was scarred by world war i into how that experience affected religious faith? this also does not hold up if it were true will be hard to see how countries as

different experiences like switzerland, germany, and great britain should all use religion in tandem. for another thing the world war was followed for two decades by a religious boom, not the best that makes up a hard to empty the pews today with the adn that the war did yesterday. and on it goes. more examples like this in the book modern sociology can tell as many things but the question of why people go to church let alone why they stop, the theories have come up short. contrary to what people taken for granted that secularization is not inevitable or a linear process. rather religion waxes and

wanes strong one moment and weaker the next reasons that demand to be understood and that is there i hope this book makes a modest and real contribution. this brings us to the second part of the talk. what got this? titanic theorist like karl marx and other thinkers never really stopped to ask what may make religion come and go yet christianity has not gone to hell in a swoop although it has been strong in some places and weaker in the others but one logical way to approach the question of what is missing it seems to me is to look at what else is going on in when religion is on the upswing. looking at the beginning of the '60s as historians and

sociologists have documented those who you may remember those years saw a remarkable revival of christianity across the western world. church attendance was up and affiliation was up ceremonies increase, religious language and ideas influenced public speech for even popular culture like movies not only in the united states but across the western world as brown and has independently documented for costly a great britain germany and more countries or most of the west better secular today the anticipated rise of a belief but in the

united states was so pronounced with a revival that some people assumed it would only continue this way not its decline would be inevitable. of the single most sociologists of religion during those years actually wrote in a classic book protestant catholic you that the village atheist was a vanishing figure in american life even agnosticism seem to be equipped and is already mentioned to transpire in the two decades but to us half a century later, the observations of exotic the opposite of

christianity's fate most secular or religious is playing defense offense christianity has been battered by a combination of forces the sexual revolution the sexual scandals at the catholic church and aggressive anti-coalition of new atheist, a political activist and allies and recently by the administration washington that appears more skeptical and openly contemptuous of traditional christianity than any since the first amendment was penned. with defensive secularist it is unrecognizable to us that what happened to make the dramatic post or religious revival possible? look again at the seniors will get the exact time across the western world.

of canada and australia the answer is the extraordinary religious boom accompanied by another even more familiar, the baby boom that it was preceded by the marriage neither were anticipated by democracy -- demographers but it spread during the same years but living in families married his children is an important part of what drives many people to church. i will say a few words in closing to a couple of reasons why this might be so. there are many reasons delivered in the book but but you find it is only as strong as the family they

are the invisible double healers of society dependent on support and reproduction and the combined in lead of babies, and christian practices through the '60s are loan powerful evidence is to understand the real cost of christian religious decline and here are a few other ways to bolster the claim what is the of least religious region of the christian west? any takers? scandinavia. pull and survey data confirm this only the 10 percent believe in hall which is the lowest number of the western world and a few people say they believe the bible was divinely inspired.

we know that they were way ahead of the western curve with the marriage and childbearing to be optional behavior's. scandinavian rates out of wedlock birth have led the western world and just as interesting is the lesser known fact. more people in scandinavia live alone in households of one than anywhere else and in sweden half of the households are households of one person and norway is 40%. once again i would argue argue, what we see societies for more people stop married to have babies and live in families are societies were more people stop going to church. one more example of the evidence for the claim that family strength is it related to the religious strength of the least christianity. ireland.

a phenomenon called the demographic transition that many books and diagrams has been committed. and i am not pretending to understand any of them. but it means people around the world have been having fewer babies than they used to in this transition interestingly predates the sexual revolution of the '60s and appears to have started in france 200 years ago and spread to the rest of the car to the first fat more and more countries would fit the pattern of fewer birth but ireland was an exception for a long time. their lives like catholics longer than the most rest of europe. but not true anymore now irish religious city from survey data alone changing

the legal landscape has dropped faster it that anywhere else in europe. but the point* that is striking is ireland's remarkable religious collapse did not occur in a vacuum. what else has been happening during the same years? the answer is it is not the only thing of the collapse the also irish fertility. ireland 20th-century baby boom came late in the '70s where burst heard roughly double mrs. with the steep decline in fertility the numbers are in the book and you can ask nicholas who knows more about these things than i. [laughter] but ireland with to the change in one generation rather than to and the fact fertility and religiosity collapse simultaneously as

radical rates suggest the family has been the silent and unembellished partner in fate all along. not just a bystander as conventional sociology has a. suggest a couple of brief thoughts which could make the double helix go around there is a whole book chapter colleges anthropology that explores this atlantic but i would like to focus, things have been family drives people to church. lots of secular data confirm very people with children are far more likely to be found in a synagogue or church and single people. but as the rate it is almost and explored. here are a couple of suggestions. when is a common but widely overlooked fact religious

and not at childbirth itself is a transcendental yvette not only in the event the most will say is the most important of their the lives of those they will, also radically transports people outside themselves as individuals to give some people the feeling they have understood a place in the cosmos and for some of them that connection translates to be religiously inclined more than before. whitaker chambers the great hero of the cold war who is also a beautiful writer expresses this perfectly in his memoir, a witness and writes about how steadying infant daughters year as she sat in her high chair became a cosmic epiphany. that moment was the beginning of his epic journey away from atheism and communism eventually

back to christianity. and without them other people experience children in the same way. anybody who knows them knows how different they are and cannot help to experience them as creative. so this powerful gestalt may be part of why people stay out of church and their single are more likely to be interested as parents. this ball of the language was confirmed by a pastor in the jury who said you know, how i get lots of people in this church? he said they come to me was something in their arms saying help. he meant a baby. [laughter] as a related matter people seek out churches for another reason because they look for a community to situate the children particularly a moral community consistent with what the parents want to

teach that is another example how they drive people to church and there is another way in which family life could point* to the guide and christian guy in particular family life is full of sacrifice taking care of sick people, old people, mental problems, a time, leisure, generally putting up with a phenomenon of other human beings. christianity starts with the birth of the baby and the mother and father began their lives with the baby to make an enormous sacrifice and at the end of history at the crucifix with the ultimate sacrifice of laying down of one life for another is it any wonder people who live in families are more likely to go to church when everything about the story of jesus resonates with

their idea of sacrifice in a way that no other world view does? there are many more related speculations in the book about how the family can be a causal factor in religiosity but in the and with the tomb across western europe with the empty churches and cathedrals but he was wrong about what was buried. it was not a guide but the nonexistent family that explains the emptiness. the human family appears to have been a symphony through which many people have heard god's voice. not to everyone the profit or the intellectuals but ordinary people and given the state including but not only western europe, it is not surprising that they

cannot find any more. thank you and welcome your comments. [applause] >> we will allow time for questioning right now we have microphones going around. >> i am with the heritage foundation what do you say explains the decline of the family starting in the 60s across the western world? >> this is an example where i think the conventional thought gets the right but does not connect the dots. what experts would say is there is urbanization and industrialization and with the java city starts to decline. but those are abstractions and i have no where seen it explained how organization did this. but the fact of urbanization

on the family than a religion declined to be better explanation and goes something like this. people move to the city's often leaving families behind in the countryside. they find out things and it is easier to lead a double life, nobody is watching you and there are all kinds of reasons why people who live in cities are less likely to be religious and rural areas but the destructive effect on the natural family and extended natural family is a missing link to explain how you get from these instructions like industrialization and urbanization just people not going to church any more. it is the missing link. >> my question is about the

positive lot and it seems that zimmerman described it as a rise of statutory law and almost like it could be the triple helix to make things needlessly complicated that the increase of law decreases the role of the family but in turn are affecting others >> glaves still trying to understand the double helix. thinks a lot. [laughter] instead of what you call positive law i would introduce a related factor of the welfare state. i could get into this in the book but there are sociologists to think the welfare state itself is part of the fracturing of the family and religion if i am right. i have a lot of sympathy for their arguments but the

welfare state has been operating in this helix way in the fracturing of those institutions on the one hand is a substitute for what the family used to do. and on the other hand, war they have fallen apart the more they have called upon to do that. i conclude it is possible that the future of the welfare state is an important part of christianity because what we see suggests the large expensive known as the modern welfare state are not sustainable over time not things to the sexual revolution such that it looks to be the untenable experiment in many countries and 50 years out. if the welfare state implodes or is brought in or

just a general recognition this is incredibly expensive and onerous for things that are done at the organic level then you might see a religious revival come out of it and that is one interesting scenario. >> heritage foundation. would you address the increasing role of organized religious groups and promoting their own secularization? car was with a rather large church of a traditional denomination that i will not name the individual preaching that the belief in god was not necessary and the resurrection was

unnecessary battery account those people christian versus secular with those cannibalizing? >> there is a chapter called the assisted religious suicide. [laughter] it is about the changes of the churches that you describe. here is an interesting thing. does not conventional but a phenomenon that has been studied called y strict churches are strong if you look at american protestants uc this churches that tried hard to be nice and jettison some of the very strict traditional moral code of christianity to been with the times and to get behind

contrary ideas like the bishops talking about overpopulation and how important it is not to procreate cover those are the churches with demographic free-fall. they will not exist in a while. on the other hand, the stricter denomination evangelical churches are doing well not only in america but across africa. some take-home points if you are a pastor in different to people having babies you are writing yourself out of a job demographically. that is part of what has happened here. number two, the effort to be nice but to sustain the institution in the long run it is not well understood but the effort to curtail or

jettison the traditional moral code has not been understood to resulted in institutional disasters so i have a chapter about why that has happened to you is perfectly secular social scientists because it has ben well studied. >> you mentioned christianity has a strong ethical component that could play into this. what about the theology of christianity itself being inherently familiar death with the trinity father and son to the adoption of adopted children of god to sibling relationships in the church the most common word for christian in the new testament is brother gender neutral to me in sibling but this christianity provides a bridge in the family to the

church? >> there is some stuff about that in the book and also i flipped that around to say because of this what you call the intrinsically familial metaphor and substance of christianity when you live in the age as we do of fractured and scattered families there are whole new barriers to put up to leave in ways that have not been well understood. for example, if you live in a world where many people grow up in fatherless homes with the outcomes studio christianity shows as a benevolent father figure if you don't have that in your life with a more conceptual reach to understand where that is coming from similarly christianity

starts with the birth of a baby with the act on the part of the baby's mother to lose a guy do with me as you will and object obedience. after 73 every birth is negotiable. of course, people are less likely to understand what is so miraculously about the birth component of the christian story similarly a world of plummeting birth rates for people grow to adulthood never having held a baby if that is your experience it to be harder to understand what is so miraculous about god coming into the world as a baby so it is important to lay out the new anthropology of police because that way we can see more clearly what is getting in the way to approach the christian churches it is not the new

if yes and people just get smarter to come to their senses but there is something else going on and this family stuff is a part of that. >> i am vicariate -- kerry said the data for single or unmarried parents now more of my friends are having kids about getting married along with the data of church and to find that marriage and family aspect more people attend church i am curious. >> marriage is a part of this and i am not an expert i would refer you to brett wilcox which is very important in this regard there is something about marriage it drives people to church and they should be clear to make a point* of

fertility not like a family of 12 it is not about that but it does have the independent effected especially male search going >> that will surprise the guise of the room. >> one of our colleagues has put out a new book called home economics the economic consequences of the family structure in the blender if you might speak to the link of the family structure and work. menu normal for people under the age of 30 for those out of wedlock now just as 50% so without the norm of two-parent families it is

more common for people to say they cannot get employees to pass a drug test or show up on time. any thoughts about family structure and work? >> no. sari. i do not know his book but i look forward to reading it. don't feel as if i can comment. >> to follow-up i associate a family decline and a religious decline and moral decline and they seem to be doing well right now. mia missing anything with that particular aspect?

>> i think there were riots in stockholm last week how well they're doing over time will depend on whether they have enough taxpayers to support the extended welfare state. is also the case the nordic country is more homogenous than the rest of europe which probably has something to do with a social cohesion you don't see in places with moral diversity. i don't think the verdict is in. we are noone into all of these experiments including the sexual revolution because it is the wallpaper of our lifetime does not mean it is relatively new of the human experience by hundreds of hundreds of years is what it will take for these experiments to pan out including the welfare state.

>> i co-chair the committee of might congregation and one of many that concerns me that the question that i have for you is how do you prove which phenomenon is causing the other one? with not the decline an even fairly strict ones and is a possible that whatever is the cause the manifest itself first in the decline of family and it takes

people to wrap their hands around and would never did to distance them from church is taking place first to manifest itself last with religious. >> the reason to talk about the double helix is that is what best describes the relationship between the two. its purpose is do get away from on a causal ways to look at this. in other words, to switch metaphors, is a two-way street that is the conventional cause those

throughout lose their religion to be so interested in family but there are so hard to do disentangle it looks like it is silly thing to explain it to say it comes first no. that is why we need something three-dimensional that cannot be separated without rendering each side produce -- reproducible to reproduce itself. >> i was just wondering you talk about reverting back to the strong family structure

when they revert to strong with kitchen and at what point* do they reverse the shift? >> i don't like a the word referred at all like the idea of going back to the '50s. the victorian period a focus on that. that is why but it cannot be disentangled but when you see the family is strong you will see that churches are full. that is the nature of the relationship. i am sure, this is not really something i know much about the governments that try to tweak things to make it cheaper for people to have children have a very a success mostly not success is my understanding because they are deep matters of a few extra $100 per year by

obviously a role for policy that is not something i get into in the book but a place for future study and direction. >> will and a smell question so how would you trace the perot family revolution in things were to turn around how would it you get that going? >> this part of the argument is correct the walt -- the welfare state as we saw in did juliet video that makes the cradle to grave promise we will take your view every stage of life. first of all, the question is is that sustainable? leaving that aside in 2008

and economic crisis began interesting things happened children did not strike out on their own blood back to the home of their parents known as the boom during generation that got bad press including from parents [laughter] but there's also a drop of the divorce rate ended'' -- divorce lawyers said it is because of the economic crisis in times of economic adversity people look at the more organic connections there things about hard times that drive people home the same is true of church has a son a different way from 9/11 now the churches were fall and people who had not been to church in decades worse certainly now showing up that is another example of diversity driving people back to organic human connections. without looking for a full-scale catastrophe, over

time substituting what the churches to and for family is something that will trickle down to make sense in much the same way it took decades just like tobacco affect on health to make a difference and that is another model i talk about how something that looks unthinkable 50 years later given enough information will make an impression on people as rational preaches -- creatures. there is hope. >> that will conclude our time together. books will be available in the lobby and mary would be willing to sign books and we also have light refreshments. thank you for coming. [applause] you are dismissed. thank you.

>> i have a lot of history and biography that the book i am reading currently in about halfway through is called indispensable of book by harvard professor and it is an excellent book on different leadership styles that has a leadership filtration is jerry that builders of all known politicians to move up through the ranks and others who are of skier who comes through who are unpredictable as a result because they are now well known. abraham lincoln was unfiltered one term in congress was an obscure figure from illinois when he got to the white house he was unpredictable yet prove

to be one of the best in the history of united states. that is not always the case but it is a fascinating theory applies this to a number of leaders like jefferson, wilson, winston churchill and it is a great read. i am halfway through that. books recently read, evan thomas is a great biographer , his theory in this book is that eisenhower was not as appreciated as he should have been, a method to his madness and although he seemed to be a bungler and not in charge but secretly he was quite shrewd and very much in charge knowing what he was doing. i have to a minute having read the whole book and opened to the theory actually he does not mean to but proves the opposite. this book tells you eisenhower was often a sick

man, a serious heart disease and was often very disengaged from his own cabinet and delegated a lot of foreign policy to john foster dulles the secretary of state. it is an interesting book but i think he disproves his own thesis which is fun. another book because i served in the senate in the years covered in the book called the last great senate which is a number of senators during rethinks is a golden age in the senate of the '60s and '70s and characters like ted kennedy kennedy, baker, muskie, a bird, who got things done and reached across the aisle to break with their own party orthodoxy. we moaning we don't do that berry more -- in a more very

much and how much was done with that spirit of cooperation and compromise. my next book his -- is an accounting history that the christian orthodoxy and heresy were opposed not by church leaders but leaders of the state were the state directly intervened in the convening councils of bishops and insisted on certain precept of orthodoxy and the concept of what constituted heresy and the emperor seditious to really insisted on that to change the course of history but not always as the best and it squelched with the

theories of theology and led to the persecution over the centuries by it is an account of early christian history and the consequences that flow from the effort from constantinople but was a westerner originally. a wonderful new book called the general's the author of the best single volume of our invasion of the iraq and what went wrong. a brilliant book. this is a historical book about how generals were made, promoted and demoted from world war ii to the present. then and the joint chief of staff to remove many

general's and he insisted on performance but his reassignment was something else to have a second chance but he removed people and tell he found the right person for the right job. with that responsibility that was diluted says that by vietnam's the performance seemed to be a small criterion with appraisal of the generals and very few consequences for pour performance soar out on and general westmorland who was in charge for a long period of time was the quintessential example and argues up through the present day it is true and

has real implications in terms of national security policy one that is thought provoking and worth reading. of book i have recently read is called conservative assault on the constitution by an attorney who practices before the supreme court and in this book he really documents the conservative assault on many facets of american life from civil-rights, a personal liberties to corporate law and his theory is the ideological assault on liberty and constitutional principles. those on that side like to say we believe in the constitution but this author

makes the opposite argument they are endangering constitutional liberties and many of the precept that we care very much about as a country. finally coming to books i have not yet read that i am excited about is the third book of the trilogy of world war ii in the american involvement from rick atkinson, as the brilliant luminescent writer and his first two volumes were extraordinary. the first was on the north african campaign and the american involvement and second was right of third 1945 a brutal part that gets overlooked and it chronicles our involvement from the day through the aberration of berlin so that is next on my

list to read than the rivalry between madison and monroe of little-known piece of virginia history but running against each other for the united states congress and the district had been carved to favor james monroe in madison decided to contest it with the upset he beat james monroe who of course, was a friend of his, stayed a friend and succeeded him as president. so this is an interesting book and i can test because madison won that election reid at the bill of rights. it could've had great consequences not a welcome piece of history but virginia history and a book i look forward to reading

this summer. . . >> host: welcome to "after words," and we're here with "t