>> i remember a few years ago bob dole made a tv series for public television. in which he commented there is absolutely no way that richard nixon could get the republican nomination today because he was far too

progressive it did midways his economics was to celesta of barack obama. of course, he opened up trade and -- tied it in the first treaties with the russians. it was a very exciting time to be there with great regret that i left but it increasingly dawned on me that he could not have been that unaware of what was going on and. >> host: to make that point in your book that as a matter of principle after watergate and all the revelations after word that you could not stay. >> guest: that's right. i tried to tell this to the chairman of the council and a good friend, a man of great personal integrity but also a huge loyalist of the president. i tried to tell him i would leave if he simpl

so finally i wrote a letter of resignation to the president and scented and left a copy on steins desk then he believed me and really did regarded as a personal betrayal. >> host: did he take that personally? >> guest: pretty much. it was clear. put it that way. >> host: you entitle that chapter why was it like that for you? >> with those institutions at face value. and i tried for as long as i could that there was a very dark side to this presidency

that had exciting and progressive things going on. and in that sense that i met the end of innocence. ever since then i have tended to look in institutions a little more critically than i would have before. >> host: you move from their to the incredible service but to just make the institutions after you leave the white house, manufacturers hanover trust, the westinghouse, a p&g, this was a time of fundamental och social

change for women in the '70s. before we get into the companies which you are very candid about, can you just talk about what it was like to be a woman being sought for these boards seats? is there any case you were not the first woman? >> guest: no. with the boards that i sat on, just running through them in my mind, i think i was always the first woman. in fact,, when lynn martin joined procter & gamble and they said you greeted me to say i am so glad to meet you i have waited 17 years because i always wanted to be one of two women. but in the '70s were feeling

pressure to put women on the board and there wasn't a lot of women that had the experience is a background. nowadays there are plenty of of women ceos. but not then. so i had a rather high profile visibility sudden the companies wanted me and i was courted by a lot of companies. i got to pick the kreme of the crop. manufacturers hanover has went through freer for changes that is now jpmorgan chastened i was on the boards through all of those changes. >> host: what we're observations about board service in general and the aged -- the nature of the way they're being governed? >> so the first or that a

joint said to have a profitable bank so when i joined the board i said i would really like a short course in money-center banking before each board meeting i would like to meet with the head of one of your bet major business units or staff units to learn a little bit about this and they were very accommodating and set it up for me but they acted as if i was the first person who ever asked. and i wondered how other people were but it turns out the u.s. postal listened for a couple of years and then start contributing but of course, there is no way i

would keep quiet for a year or two. now of course, there is a whole cottage industry to educate corporate drive -- directors and it is regarded as a cash cow to do short courses for corporate directors but it was unheard of in those days. people say what was it like to be the first woman on the board and how did they treat you? yes, there were initial looks of shock and remember the little round southern gentleman who came up to my shoulder the head of reynolds tobacco and we were talking and he said diem and then looked at me and said no pardon me and i fought if

you heard what i heard on the college campuses of the 1960's you would not be so apologetic. but by and large they treated me with respect and actually began to take what i said seriously. so i did not feel a lot of difficulties but it was a little bit lonely. >> host: did you feel in a you become a position to relate to the other directors? >> guest: i did. i remember telling the chairman when he asked me to join the board i said that i read a face plight of the token the please don't expect me to behave like a token because i promise you that i want a and i didn't.

>> host: and 81. this is during the social and political upheaval and social change what did you observe about corporate leadership in the '70s in that environment? >> guest: actually it is a process that is still going on today that corporate boards began to take the oversight function more seriously. they became a bit more diverse with women minorities and getting to join the boards but where

they were merged or half style takeovers but the notion of governance became more serious. of the the boat tends to be unanimous but that is because you don't hold a vote until you know, you have the full support of the board. and when ross perot voted no on the general motors board this was headline material. and of course, now as you know, from reading the newspapers of the role of the corporate board and what they're responsible for and the whole question of executive pay and all of

this now is more fun than center did that was. so i was there for a fair part of the revolution. it was more of an evolution. and of course, starting in the early '90s when the chairman of general motors was pushed up by the board then there was just a rash of ceos being pushed out by non confidence on the part of a director that i think it's something that never have been spee for and by coincidence happen within six weeks when i left general motors.

and i left for.reasons because i was tired of telling gm that unless you wake up and smell the burning pot he will be in serious trouble and i could not get the top management to take their heads out of this and long enough to see the world was changing in they would have to change. but he was forced out by the board then ahead of american express, and a whole host but that was really unheard of at the time in the process is still going on now. and that the corporate directors really do have a responsibility. >> about a decade and a half with the chief economist

what took you to gm and why? what did you find when you got there? >> i have been here. i was on one-year sabbatical for behavioral sciences it is part of standard but it wasn't then. when i was there on the staff they said there was someone who wants to come talk to his daughters at the stanford business school and i said fine. i will ask him to lunch. the center had wonderful wenches. i was told that i did not know he would become the next chairman and ceo of general motors. he came he said how would you like to be vice president and chief economist and i thought he

was very blind and fair skin and i thought he has had too much sun. [laughter] and i was teaching a number of years and i was up four challenges and then it appeared that is not really what you want to do. but i think what intrigued me was we need to affect the national economy and that was a macro economist and here i had this whole economic training and i think trading in the field asylum it cabinet the

breakdown problems then rias -- reassemble but i had a vocabulary that went with it and i was presenting it to a captive audience and i thought it would be interesting to see if this could be effective and persuasive with the non captive audience who don't share my vocabulary or mental filing cabinet. so i became intrigued. this was in jail period i did not say yes and held may or april because bob was teaching and as long as we had a child at home i would not do that. our son was already at yale and my daughter was in high school and for reasons of her own wanted to go to boarding school and didn't wanna go back to pittsburgh.

so i thought if she gets into the boarding school hat and over the high will except the g.m. job. she did and i did. and that is how little started. >> host: what did you hope to do and how did that aligned with gm? >> the chief economist before me who retired, had mainly been an assistant to the chairman who wrote speeches and set out the content and i really wanted to make it more useful to the operating side of the house. so i did a number of things. for one thing i shifted the analytical framework to just

focusing eat exclusively on the u.s. economy to focusing on the global economy. that is partly from my own background but also i was beginning to be convinced this was a global industry. so i reoriented in that direction. >> so it is 1978 so a huge transition was starting the pot was on fire in to the management kept insisting this was set temporary phenomenon that would go away then when the japanese started to build plants year they said my boss the vice chairman said wait till they had to work with american

labor we will push them back into the sea. >> you talked again and again about the lack of urgency to respond to these competitive pressures. what was your observation? >> gm was so used to being the big kahuna that when i went to work for gm i was congratulated to work for generous motors and that was the nickname. it was a bad at the time and they simply could not adjust to the fact this is changing and changing rapidly down in some ways he did have visions of the future but it was a vision of the things he tried to do to fix it

were not successful and he was not capable to make the course corrections. he tried to do a lot of automations without recognizing that was not the secret. he was hoping the high tech companies could crack the gm coulter to treat them as financial transactions but never sought to functionally integrate them and it was a different kind of job. he brought in a lot of people from the hillside to the vice president levels that had never been done before hoping that would update the culture but every

one of those people deputy director, he brought and the head of nasa, elmer johnson, a very high level people and every one of us malar female, either retired or left the company frustrated because we could not crack the culture. there were insiders who were trying to do the same thing that there were not enough of them to form a critical math. i remember i finally got so frustrated and i left and i said privately gm and the uaw will join hands and jump off the cliff together and that happened in a spectacular fashion.

>> then we all became shareholders. [laughter] >> host: we have a lot of great questions from the audience so what you have been doing to begin with this question and you talk about what it was like to ride in the car with your dad who was not a very good driver. what it was a sunday drive like? >> guest: my father was notoriously terrible driver. he and my mother both got a driver's license by going to tranten to take the driver's test then putting a $5 bill in the cigarette case to offer a cigarette case and they both got a driver's licenses but that does not mean they learn to drive.

i still remember not just the sunday afternoon but i did drive across the country with my fob with bother from princeton to santa barbara when he went off for the atom bomb test. i loved it because they had a chance to have the unbroken time with my father but even though i was only 11 i had enough sense to be frightened former life that we would get there budget somebody once asked my father why he drove a cadillac and he said it is only because no one will sell me a take and i guess that was the closest he could come. [laughter] and it is true you could

survive although on the honeymoon he crashed the car in the wind chill weber went to my mother's nose and she always swore that created a lifetime problem but in those days to prevent scarring they gave far more radiation than they would never do now. so the rest of her life she was plagued with not life threatening but skin cancer that came from the radiation that came from the fact he crashed the car into a tree but. >> that is amazing. please refer any -- referring to your father as johnny. >> everybody did. in hon period that was another end in the united

states it was johnny. the they're called him that or professor nobody called him john except his brother nicholas who rode a boathouse his brother but i don't know anybody else. >> do you know, what the most radical vision was at fis at the time of your father? did it come close? >> guest: not ias but i know my father's radical vision at some point i guess right after world war ii hero of a letter to tyson's father and a longtime faculty member ian he said i

am now thinking about something much more important than bombs. i am thinking about computers because his main scientific goal for the very high-powered computing machines was long range weather forecasting and whether control and he felt any future international conflict it would be whether control and not the bombs to carry the day. in there is an institution in boulder colorado that has high powered computing to work on weather forecasting in computers have made possible better forecasting then there was before but as i understand it, before long

range it is still the farmer's almanac. i guess the reason for that is the reason that has not surfaced which is the chaos theory that you cannot forecast what the weather will be like. in that sense he would be disappointed. he always assumed computers with noise be used for scientific research and a dozen in the world or maybe 20 but the notion every single one of us would havel whole lineup of these objects and some of them so small you could hang them around your neck like a flash drive here and there would be used for children to play games and people to write love letters including

people they shouldn't me. [laughter] that would have absolutely blown his mind. of course, in miniaturization and hadn't come in yet when they were still as big as a room. he was also very concerned mankind would wipe itself out before 1980 because we did not have the social control to manage the technological marvels like hydrogen bombs. so he might be pleasantly surprised we are talking about this in 2013. >> host: did you hear hon gary and spoken at home or ias? >> i don't think they ever did at ias most of the people who worked on the computer were americans.

he and my stepmother often did speak hungarian to each other. by another of course, reburied in american soil never heard in her house sometimes briefly to her parents but basically not in that household but they did speak particularly if they did not want to talk about in front of me that meant as a teenager i understood a certain amount of it. [laughter] but it has gone away. i am told i spent one year in hungary when i was very small about two and a half a mother was getting divorced period rebury i am told i spoke perfect german to the family imperfect and gary and to the servants but i went to the american nursery school and within weeks i had suppressed both

languages and now i don't speak anything but a kitchen french today. >> host: with your view as an economist have a couple of questions. do you fall into the austerity or stimulus camp? >> guest: like most economists, both. what i mean by that is we needed the stimulus and probably should have been bigger and lasted longer than it did but at the same time we need a specific incredible program for gradually reducing the budget deficit which to my mind means increasing taxes by closing loopholes without changing tax rates my vote

is for the carbon tax but i don't think i will sell that any time soon but also to get a handle on the growth of entitlements which before too long will swallow up more and more of the federal budget. so i am not just being facetious when i say both and we have done just the opposite in the form of these sequester that was designed to be so awful it could ever happen but i guess what? in reid made no progress at all on long-term reduction with the budget deficit so we have 180 degrees backward >> host: looking at the situation in washington to

we have the wherewithal? >> no. not at the moment. we have a mess. i reminded of winston churchill's statement democracy of the worst possible system except of the others that have been tried. right now democracy is at a low point. we seem to have worked ourselves into a standstill but i am optimistic that sooner or later i will get over it the right now it is a grim prospect. >> the final chapter you call having a little and you really do right in optimistic terms about your ability to have done that throughout your life. if you were giving him advice to young women today, a sort i'd like yours

, if she wanted to take some cues, what would you say? >> you cannot possibly forecast how your life will turn out. i am not sure when make life plants but certainly nowadays the notion of getting on one path and sticking to it is less and less if you expect to work for one company or in the same deal all of their life the majority of them will say no. so professionally it is like a boy scout motto be prepared for what comes but on the personal side to talk about what valuable support my husband has given me throughout my career and would not have been possible

without that and they said what sort of partnership we choose? i said i cannot define for you that i can give you one piece of advice that is never form a lot of the long-term partnership with someone you thank you can change because you want so that is two pieces of advice >> host: you generously agreed to read a passage. >> guest: this is the very end of my book and i said they're all the changes in my life and in the world that surrounds it my father's presence has never been far away today i am a trustee of the institute for advanced study in princeton ready kim was one of the first members in 1933 and in

his day leading scholars from all over the world to make up a small permanent faculty to focus on research cover breaking and entering the large number of younger members to spend from one term to several years there. if the board is the most intellectually exclusive trustees of the world. summer billionaires' and eric schmidt by the way others are professors but all who have been chosen for their ability to oversee and nurture where the world's greatest minds can operate in a serene and comfortable environment not hindered by distractions. in my mind whenever i fit with my trustees in the glass boardroom that looks out beyond the woods that

generations of geniuses have strolled i find myself conjuring up my father's astonished coast s daughter sitting in the governing board that he helped found with a prototype of his computer. my husband is tending his grave in the princeton cemetery clipping, weeding and breaking and replacing a plant thank. a task to perform twice a year the seventh off with fatally three of his daughter's future to do his part to make sure the father's memory is not neglected. my father's presence was closest in 2003 with a national celebration commemorating the 100th anniversary of his birth.

was invited to participate as an honored guest that carried with it one of the most hectic schedules i every encountered. couple of weeks after finishing treatments for breast cancer if found myself at only giving talks about my father at internationally attended meetings of the hon period mathematical in computer science society's of budapest but informal talks in english to students in schools all over hungary. thank goodness it is a small country. we were transported to every country in the cramped vehicle belonging to one of my father self-appointed promoters to it acted as our show for. some schools were actually named after von neumann but all students knew who he was and what he accomplished and it had done different exhibitions to honor him i tried to imagine american high-school students to give

that up for sports and entertainment celebrities but that we talking about john von neumann from the land of his birth and accomplishments brought closure in the recognition that i thought were conflicting expectations my father, mother and my own that had shaped my life had finally converged. i filled the moral imperative for whatever intellectual gifts i had. the mother's ugly duckling had developed a swine's poris and self-confidence where we've been had fortune 500 corporations than half the i ev league universities in the public ones are headed by women wear a female is a contender for the highest office now allows the most talented women expectations that far

exceed mind. my husband and our children have given into the fear that all three would pay dearly for my career in addition to the exhortations of a close and loving family life extended to encompass a third generation. my father's shadow of to negative last. if we meet again it will be in the sunlight. [applause] >> host: thank you so much

>> i am the director of media relations for catholic bishops and the key for being here today as we are standing together for religious freedom this important open letter to all americans about the united ephors for religious liberty our panelists reflect people of different religions who share a common concern protection of conscience to uphold the first amendment guarantee that americans can live according to religious principles we have

dr. russell more of the southern baptist convention archbishop of baltimore turned the ad hoc committee of religious liberty and anne hendershott professor of sociology and social professor at liberty university school of law and national hispanic christian leadership conference board of directors each panelist will speak a few words then we'll open the program to questions. dr. moore? been faqs sister walsh. i am from the conference of catholic bishops but we have a sudden shock and got tactic instead from the very beginning such incursions of religious liberty happen from the pen of a bureaucrat

rather than the bare of a tank of a baptist forebears objected with the revolutionary opposed revolutionary era to the state preachers to preach the gospel this was the a government of matter of paperwork but it was more than a fee or a piece of paper but a government that had overstepped its bounds of the challenges america returns back to the founding principles of this republic of religious liberty and freedom of conscience are not government grants handed out to the deserving religious liberty and freedom of conscience are in need in will writes printed by the creator and these belong to all persons not just those in the majority of the culture. americans are planning to gather this week for cookouts and picnics and fireworks to mark another independence day.

we come up broad coalition mark this week by calling our government back to the first freedom the free exercise of religion for all persons. services contraceptive mandate has catalyzed the the health and human human coalition that opposes heavy fines and legal penalties and individuals and businesses that do not participate as regard we have shown to exercise their religious convictions related respect our president obama and a national leader said we have appealed as citizens for the administration to respect rights and response with word games and accounting tricks that is the same

mandate repeated over and over again the we are not so easily hypnotized by parlor tricks. the government has treated free exercise as if it were a tattered house there to be bought off in the name of progress. we dissent from that as a preacher of the gospel of jesus christ so liberty is more than the principal i believe we should render unto caesar that the loans to caesar but it cannot be swept into the federal treasury. we cannot accept the osteology lessen the government sought to teach us that it is a matter of what happens during the schedule times of worship services.

stood to hide in our hearts that they inform the way we live. we support freedom of conscience that to me for ourselves but all persons but the reasons we impose this incursion is that we want to be oppressed or oppress others but we did not ask the government to bless our convictions or impose them on others we simply ask the government not to set itself up ahead as a llord of our conscience. many americans disagree with the things we believe but even americans have no religious faith have interest in the protection of these liberties. do we really want a simple society that the conscience of the people are so easily swept aside by government action? if the government can force

organizations and businesses to pave over their own consciousness to choose between a believer and a suggested what will stop the government from imposing its will on your conscience next? we call on the department of hhs at the very least to expand protections under the mandate to cover any organization with religious or moral objections to provide or enable access to drugs and services and we ask congress to prevent such abuses from the future in the call on americans to remember the great cost this country has endured to achieve freedom so that we may continue these blood bought rights for ourselves and prosperity. the archbishop will forgive me if i quote martin luther that had some carr jersey

between traditions but we can agree on his words as they apply to our government and to his audacity to curtailed religious freedom in this case to go against conscience is neither right nor safe come here we stand, we can do no other. god help us. thank you. >> arch bishop lori? >> let me say for the record that your quotation from martin luther is happily accepted. >> thank you. >> we are grateful to see so many leaders of other denominations including a southern baptist, the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints, a national hispanic christian leadership conference in the international society in the

orthodox christian and jewish leaders as space-based in civil rights organizations to come together to sign a statement supporting religious freedom the letter itself states'' many of the signatories of this letter to not hold an objection to the use of contraception. but we stayed united in protest to the mandate recognizing the encroachment on the conscience of our fellow citizens. as the catholic bishop has said from the beginning of the underlying issue with the hhs mandate to is not about any specific teaching teaching, in fact, other signatories do not share view on contraception and

probably agree with us in many other ways but they understand for religious freedom and issue stake it is fitting they have been released from the fortnight for freedom fed as a show of great respect in the two week period that the step to the thursday independence day it is also fitting the final rule on the hhs mandate was issued during the fortnight since we are attentive to religious freedom at this time. sadly the mandate divides our church into three separate camps, houses of worship and accommodated religious institutions on

the other and in addition to that for-profit entities run by religious believers we have never seen such a distinction between what we do within the walls of a church and how we serve our neighbors. the faith by which we worship on sunday is the very same faith by which we act in the world the other six days of the week. under the now finalized rule for-profit institutions still received no relief or accommodation at all except that many have been able to obtain so far in the courts with preliminary injunctions are temporary restraining orders against the mandate.

as cardinal dylan stated, we appreciate the extension of the effective date by five months meaning the effective date for accommodative religious nonprofit institutions is now our january 1st cover 2014 also the united states conference of catholic bishops is still analyzing the specifics of the accommodation is a 110 page rule ended is complex it is the intricacies of health insurance lot and they plan to issue once the analysis has been completed but at the outset hhs itself has

noted the final rule is'' very similar to the february 2013 proposal which they commented on in detail on march 20th. in addition to this ongoing analysis they will continue to seek relief from the courts and from the congress as appropriate. notably just recently senators pitcher and tom coburn introduced legislation in the u.s. senate called the health care conscience right back to give a legislative fix for those who object because of moral or religious convictions. the senate bill is the identical companion bill to

h.r. 940 legislation introduced in the house earlier this year by a congresswoman black and others. once again we are pleased tuesday and with so many partners with raising continued awareness over religious concerns and the hhs mandate of those present today underscores this is about religious freedom enjoyed by people of all faiths in no faith that all something that we all hold the year as americans most worthy to preserve and defend. thank you very rich -- very much.

>> dr. anne hendershott? >> i am anne hendershott sociologists for the past frontiers working with religious colleges teaching sociology i was thrilled to do that over the 20 years because i knew my conscience rights would be respected as a pro-life catholic i was happy to teach in the environment where i would not have to compromise my a beliefs with student internships or other abortion providers. i knew i would never be asked to compromise my beliefs but unfortunately the obama administration hhs mandate of preventive services now threatens those that were protected the ages mandate requires all organizations including religious ones including catholic colleges provide

insurance coverage that includes abortion in inducing drugs, sterilization and contraceptives. the mandate will require me to purchase insurance that might church teaches is a moral forcing us to pay for or facilitate access that are in opposition to are deeply held moral and religious beliefs. the mandate also allows minor children of employees of accommodated institutions to avail themselves of contraception were boarded drugs without parents' knowledge. because such information will not appear on the claim statement at the end of each month last year my current employer became the first

university to drop the requirement for student health insurance due to concerns of the hhs mandate. then the president of the university gave a statement protesting the new guidelines enforced catholic institutions to choose between following their faith or providing health coverage. in his statement he wrote by making the insurance coverage minatory we have violated the people of faith to practice their religious beliefs and they sued the federal government to say the mandate had a great threat to teach from the heart of the church. at that time franciscan was

one of 12 lawsuits filed from other catholic colleges and universities now there are over 60 brought by family-owned businesses and by religious institutions but fortunately with those cases they have received early readings the vast majority have been awarded a temporary halt to the mandate that unfortunately many cases including the university case was dismissed without prejudice because the courts claim the religious institutions have not been injured by the mandate. but those of us to work on catholic campuses disagree. we already have been injured of the and just mandate because our constitutional

right has been compromised the refusal to classify religious institutions as employers have compromised our religious right there is every indication this will escalate failing to account colleges as religious employers the state can target us as they have done with agencies to place children wes same-sex couples. of less colleges and universities are given an assurance their religious liberty will be protected the threats will continue rejecting claims of religious liberty it is likely the misguided attempt to protect women's rights and we can facilitate participation with a student internships at the clinic of abortion providers and colleges and universities

can except the leaders in those who disavow the catholic faith. the analogous situations have arisen but if we protest on religious liberty crowns will be told again that we have no right to protest because we are not religious institutions but the current obama appointee recently wrote when it came to gay-rights she was having a hard time coming up with any case in which religious liberty should win. we're already at a place for the establishment clause can shift from the legitimate desire to keep being to entangling itself to a justification of secularism pushy religion out of the public square and this threatens people of all faiths. . .

to manifest his religion and belief in teaching, practice, worship, and service. the right to religious freedom has not only been one of the cornerstones of the american legal system, it has also been a priority of the united states

foreign policy to promote and defend the human rights. the defense of international religious freedoms enabling the united states to effectively show the importance of respect for democracy and human rights. despite the end of the cold war, violations of religious freedom are still widespread. however, we continue to come back to religious freedom. the ones in totalitarian regimes are unjust and should not happen. forcing religious believers to make a choice between obeying the law and violating deeply

held religious beliefs or obeying the moral norms and disobeying the government. american religious institutions, family-owned businesses and private persons should not be forced to pay for drugs and services which violate their deeply of convictions. american religious institutions, family-owned businesses and individuals should not be fine stuff piled their religious ideas. violations of religious freedom in the united states and abroad are unacceptable. especially the case when they involve the provision of innocent human life. abortion inducing drugs. it undermines religious freedom arms and cannot leave to the cause of religious freedom

globally. a great american tradition, the fundamental civil rights. if this happened then america will be able to become a legal and that global cost for the defense of religious freedom for fundamentals human-rights. >> chair no open to questions. if you have a question please jersey and. when you're called upon to speak into the microphone, state your name, agency, and do you are addressing your question and finally a question. >> michael winters, a 2-part. compliance with the mandate constitute illicit mature corporation with the volunteers so do you add to that clothing ministers of the mandate takes effect?

if not dalai someone's money and time being spent. for robert more, as you kno many people have religiously based conscious objections to the civil rights act and desegregation laws. why is this different from that especially regarding private for-profit employers? >> first of all, you simply have to recognize what the mandate does on national level. is different. that is coming to create a sort of a three tiered religious system. you got exempt houses of worship , accommodate institutions, and private for-profit conscientious individual business owners. that state of affairs did not exist. the state of affairs sets up a new situation for religion in the united states.

that alone is worth spending a lot of time on. it is important also to recognize that the suits that have been brought have not been brought through the conference. they have rather been brought by all whole array of institutions, universities, charities, publishing houses and the like. these organizations and these individuals have recognized that their religious liberty is a stake. regarding the question of the accommodation, 110 pages. a lot of fantasies in a. until now we have been dealing with two previous adorations of the rule. now we have the final rule. we will subject that to intse study.

and that work is getting under way now. >> the reason that we would support civil rights legislation that you mentioned in the difference from this sort of mandate from that legislation, i believe, can be found in the founding era in the words of the declaration of independence and then communicated in the constitution, rights that are held self-evident. we believe that what was happening there was being addressed in the civil rights movement was the oppression of people in the american south that ran counter to the natural rights and human dignity of persons protected in the constitution. what's happening here is that you have a government not allowing people to maintain a sense of human dignity and free exercise of religion which is also guaranteed in the united states constitution and is a natural right. we believe there is great continuity between the civil

rights movement and our standing together to say we believe in free exercise of religion and freedom for all persons, not just ourselves. >> yes. >> the christian post. in a letter you ask for an expansion of the exemption, but it does not specify how far you think the exemption should go. the was just mentioning, year of the for-profit companies. are you asking for the exemption to be extended that far more just as far as the organizations represent? and secondly, is there anything you can tell me about the timing of friday's announcement? did that come as a surprise? >> addressing a question. >> it's been answered. >> all take a crack at it.

for the last 40 years and of the church amendment agreed latitude is been given to private financial business owners and religious organizations in matters of religious conscience and health care. and it is that latitude. what one might call the status quo. we would like to see them restored. failing, much more ample than we see now. our concern for our institution is a concern to serve. city will to do are ministries, justice and health care.

it extends to conscientious private individuals religious freedom first and foremost an individual, france's recently said that we are to be not parts of christians with full time christians. able to run their businesses as the extent to would like to see it over 200 years had been

serving as the mentioned the only in ways that are rooted in ground it precisely in our religious convictions. >> tom harrell with the washington times. i know some of the plaintiffs in the lawsuits have been filed and make a distinction between the ridges the contraceptions offers is more traditional. why you define emergency contraception as enforcing abortion. >> there was a medical more professional. i would say that what has been approved under the amended on

all fda approved contraceptives. in particular my scientific accounts is been shown to induce an early abortion. you believe it is being taken unjustly. that brings you beyond the realm of contraception and abortion which is problematic. >> that of contraception. in any of these forms. part of this coalition it would have contraception and abortion and other things. the issue here is the principal

conscience. >> my questions, if you're saying that religious companies should have religious freedom, are you setting of the situation in which employees are protected . why should the government step in and say on going to side with the employer rather and the employee. >> we don't believe that the status quo restricted the freedom of the employees. bell or asking is for employers not to be coerced into participating in technologies to

which they have a religious objection. the american culture, contraceptive as available as there. instead of the early this compromises those employers. >> the prospective employees sign on to the church institution, or unconsciously, intentionally as a christian institution is kind of the mission there.

>> i just want to know what the next step is. more plans to do specific things now the district is a letter? >> i think we have begun an ongoing conversation with one another and with the broader outside community about these things. or not going to back down. did the government has been waiting as out person time thinking of roman catholics and evangelicals and others who are opposed to these things will somehow go away. or not going away. right to continue to speak to this. i think the next up is to ask the administration again to reconsider as we and the slaughter and also to work with members of congress toward legislative solutions.

>> mr. pier. >> this is sort of a follow-up to the previous question. how do you respond to the government's argument that there is a difference between individuals and corporations and that while the individual owners of a corporation or business have religious rights protected by the first amendment, for-profit sector corporations cannot. >> i would think that first of all it's always been understood that individuals in our country have been able to run for-profit corporations according to christian principles. wouldn't it be a shame if that suddenly became impossible to do

we are speaking analogous sleek, speaking by way of comparison, but corporations to have a kind of an identity. did you have, even under the law , a form of one might call president. church institutions by which the character of our enterprise is shaped and designed. who would certainly like to see that respected. >> thank you. happy writing. have been reporting. [inaudible conversations]

[inaudible conversations] >> coming up tonight, book tv and prime-time features memoirs by and about scientists beginning with richard dawkins. the experiences that and to be a scientist. then his book high price, the narrow scientists journey of self discovery. after that living with autism and your book thinking across the spectrum. later, her memoir, the marshes daughter, recalling her life crawling out of the famous mathematician. >> on the next washington journal, dwayne matthews, the foundation for education about higher education. james o'keefe on his book break

through, a guerrilla war to expose fraud and save democracy. and later on a spotlight on magazine series fred kaplan of mit technology review discusses his recent article of the history and capability of u.s. terms. we will take your calls, your mouse, and tweet. washington journal every morning at 7:00 eastern on c-span. >> was a british prime minister david cameron takes questions from members of the british house of commons. live coverage of 7:00 a.m. eastern here on c-span2. >> making the transition from journalism is exhilarating and completely overwhelming and frightening the wonderful. >> what did you make that? >> i made that terse. i had long wanted to be working out a book because of the freedom that allows you to dive

into ectopic and have enough time to really explore fully. >> taboos sciences, living in space, the afterlife and the human digestive system. best-selling author will take your calls, he announced, facebook comments, and tweets. three hours live sunday at noon eastern on book tv on c-span2. >> an appetite for wonders and of the book. the author dr. richard dolphins. why did you choose to write an autobiography at this point? >> i'm getting on with it. my mother is 96. memories the reid is been a wonderful experience.

it seems like the right time to do it. just the first half, after the age of 35. did make sense to divide it in the two books. this is the first 11 sticky from childhood. >> well, why was a natural point for you? >> it changed my life. before that -- and then after, went on teaching and doing research more of the profits it. writing books.

his career began. the same kind of schooling, the feed pain. and then at oxford, he did research for my did research and called up to fight in the war.

and i thought around that time my mother was in our students. and then a shared love was brought up in an atmosphere that was one of nature. >> brought up in the anglican church. >> my parents had no interest in religion. finally first of all, the age of about nine.

>> so when you ask parents. >> fifteen stories. and them i gutted all. >> have it come about? >> well, before eroded in 1966, was asked. >> now will be heavier which pretty much foreshadowed the gene.

>> all that rhetoric in 1966. the vaguely thought of someone to my riding all down. i finally did so in 1976 you could find almost the same word delayed so long. actually started to type out a piece of paper in 1972 were three. making money. the most frequent part of. i could not do my research. separating that.

>> an appetite. it was a wonderful man, and distinguished biologist, a wonderful character, students love jim. he was irreverent, constantly talking. he did not endorse any of the things that professors did like talk about where was coming from . and he inspired generations. he inspired me. i was never actually is students many of his ideas are incorporated. >> after the selfish gene was published touted your life changed? did you become a celebrity professor innocents? >> not immediately.

the book to the sell very well. in total, it did cause a bit of a sensation. i did find myself being invited to lots of things which i have not been before. talking to people like you, i suppose. is bound to happen. it did change my life and set me on a new course of writing. >> here in the states require well-known not only as a scientist, but also as an atheist. when did you start writing about that in earnest? >> it doesn't. and i suppose all my books, it's

all about the argument which is still the dominant reason for most people will give for believing in a supreme being. they look at the world of nature of course it is. it gives up by natural selection, which is the opposite and so it was an attempt to explain that and nothing to subtitle, something like what the evidence of evolution. so it was interpreted. all my other books could be interpreted in the same way. the only book that is explicitly

, 2006, not sold more than 2 million copies in english . but apart from not my book is not been devoted to atheism. >> charles darwin, your hero, an appetite. >> indeed. a brilliant thinker, billion this planner. one of the things i find surprising is that torrance idea which is really so simple that everyone should be able to understand it came so late, to wonder years after newton. really you might think that what name did was more difficult. invented caucus. the mechanics of motion.

these are all supreme achievements for the human mind. 200 years before darling. you can't help wondering why someone like new nor aristotle didn't think that the simple but immensely powerful idea? >> someone who has written about science and ideas, was it like to read about yourself? >> quite difficult. embarrassment's. i was wondering if it was worth doing. i hope it's a good humored book. i like to think it is. finally i enjoy writing it. >> did you end up enjoying it? >> yes. >> why? >> reliving memories, it's not exist @booktv exactly as systematic history of my life. it's more a patchwork of memories with the working title

that i had my address started writing it. that kind of random memory put together in such a way to encapsulate a live. >> we will be in bookstores in september of 2013. is this the american cover with the english and american cover. >> as the american cover. >> the british cover is sideways on view. it's not smiling. holding a below and send. >> wide different covers? >> the have no idea. they have their ways. >> an appetite for wonders.

richard dawkins is the author. in bookstores september. >> wednesday night book tv in prime-time features a look at personal reflections. at 8:00 p.m. in interview of enron become a life of former presidential candidate under new book the romney family table, sharing held good recipes in favor traditions. former secretary of state on his book issues on my mind, strategies for the future. 9:15 p.m., author alice walker discusses the question in the road. 10:00 p.m. former defense secretary donald rumsfeld talks about in business, politics, wars, and life. book tv in prime-time here on c-span2. >> wednesday night american

history tv in prime-time, the 150th anniversary of the battle of gettysburg. 8:00 p.m. the tour of the gettysburg battle monuments. a conversation on pickets charge. later, perspectives on the american revolution would u.s. naval war college professor. >> you're watching c-span2 with politics and public affairs weekdays featuring live coverage of the u.s. senate. on week nights watched the public policy events. every week in the latest nonfiction authors and books on book tv. you can see pass programs in guest is a letter website and join in a conversation on social media sites. >> coming up next, columbia professor dr. carl heart on his book high price and narrow scientists journal of self discovery. it challenges everything you know about drugs in society.

he's interviewed by a guest host , columnist for the hill and a fox is a contributor. this is an hour. >> welcome. our guest today, dr. carl heart. is book high price commander scientists journey of self discovery that challenges everything you know about drugs in society. a member of the national advisory council on drug abuse and also an assistant professor of psychology and psychiatry at columbia university. he is a board member of the college on problems of drug dependency and has conducted 22 years of research in narrow psychopharmacology and the science of drug addiction. welcome. >> sent you for having me. >> this is a fascinating book. it is your personal story as well as the result of your work

in science. but the heart and soul of it i would say and i hope from wrong of tell me tell you are saying, you know what god 20 plus million americans who do illegal drugs. >> the national government conducts the survey every year. this has been known for some time. twenty plus million americans to use drugs and regular basis. >> and you also say over the generations people have always used drugs. >> people of always use drugs and people will always use drugs. that's a fact. birds fly, men get high. >> all have to use that one. i did know that one. >> but your point in writing this book as a scientist is that given these realities the impact that tracks have on social policy, race, our culture often times a distorted by a

lack of evidence based. instead people rely anecdotes' or fear rather than a facts. >> used as scapegoats. social problems. the problem for me is that people who look like me are often scapegoating more so than other folks. and as a scientist who knows the facts, it's very disturbing. >> okay. as a black person there would be very disturbing. >> that's exactly what i mean. >> understand something that is race related in this regard which is just an outrage which is the fact that when you look is something like the 1980's in

a crack cocaine, you say, you know, people identified this as a black community problem. fact, more whites use crack them but. similarly more blacks went to jail. why even a more whites were using the drug. >> it's kind of simple. the short answer is racism. this is a new. racism, will we do is we put our police resources in communities of color, primarily black communities. you can easily get people doing something illegal, no matter what. i drive my car, for example. i sometimes pass the speed limit. that's in illegal activity. if they what they can give me a ticket. that doesn't happen because the resources are now where i'm at most of the time. eyeing and in the upper west

side. if you want to catch people doing crimes he but police resources in those communities which is what happened. that in the early 1900's cocaine was used by how wide number of americans. coca-cola. number of products. no there was concern when black people start to use cocaine, the new york times ran an article in 1914 about the black folks being the new southern -- but cocaine being a new 7-. and away that cocaine was talked about or black people being under the influence was talked-about, under the influence of cocaine was talked about, it caused them to be more murderous. it caused them to rape white women, be unaffected by bullets. all of this nonsense.

this was going on then and it's going on now. the language has been tempered, but drugs are such easy scapegoats. most of the population don't use drugs. you can save these things about all, even though alcohol is pharmacologically active and just like any other drugs like cocaine and the rest buried you can say these crazy things about of all because many people drink alcohol. people used cocaine. sir you can tell these credible incredible stories about cocaine >> but you think that it is still the case today you could credibly come on c-span or anywhere else. >> people who use cocaine gain huber hits it -- superhuman strength. as the new york times article said, if you shoot me and my leg, i want feel if i used cocaine. you're crazy. let's go back a couple years ago

there was an incident in miami where this guy, they call that is on the incident. chewed off the face of another guy. and originally is said that the report was that the person was on basalts, i'm a jerk to read or never this a new drug or new form of drugs. certainly it was believed that bath salts caused the strategy this guy's face off. when the check to see what is in this person's system there was no battle. the old fellows and a person system was marijuana, not that it was even in the system when the -- not that he had recently smokers, but it was an assistant. now, so, the things scilicet about crack cocaine and 1980's, we said that it costs this incredible amount of violence.

now, we cannot have said that about powder cocaine and rick another said that about powder cocaine because a number of americans were using powdered cocaine, particularly americans were middle-class. and so we had to have a new route. smoking it, not power cocaine, but crack cocaine caused these incredible affection they believed it as a country in part because we thought it was something new when in fact is the same track. tracer saying something new oftentimes leave to this kind of hysterical reaction. >> that's right. there wasn't really anything new. there weren't any real new drugs on the scene. as the myth. for the most part many of these checks of them with us forever. >> wait a second. i hear about new drugs. i don't know all the names. the drugs that people take a more chemical compounds that marijuana. >> let's just think about it. methamphetamine.

people act like that's a new drug. as been around since the early 1900's. ecstasy, one of the club drugs, and early 2000's people discovered that, they thought this was something new. it wasn't. it's been with us since 1912. so many of these compounds have been with us. this is that they give a new group of users. and when the new group of users is a group that we despise, that's the recipe. >> the essential point of the book. lots of americans have used illegal drugs. and your argument is not for drug legalization. by the way, among the americans you point out here use illegal drugs president obama, president bush, george h. w. bush, and also bill clinton. you say these are people who have the knowledge to drug use and got to do great things. the point that is egested that there were not caught up in a

network of police arrest at can oftentimes derail success in american cahuenga. when you look at the use of illegal drugs, your point again naturalization%, but for education. and you talk about the idea that people should know what is in a cycle active dry before they get involved. and one of your arguments that i found, most people use illegal drugs are not addicts. it does not interfere with parenting, work, or relationships. i think most americans, if they heard this would say cod that you're taking away all of the hype and fear that we want our children to hear. even if your argument is true, there are people who do illegal

drugs and of suffer consequences, why isn't it better give all you said of the police and networks of crime among why would you say it's better to say to kids don't do drugs. >> on a professor. one of the things that i think is more important is to teach people i think. when you say don't do drugs or just say no there is no sort of thinking going on. now what you would hope you have, your kid will be curious to find after themselves. some might issue is that when that give the kid the proper education. if they choose to indulge, many will not, but if they do there will be safe. of course my kids are in that age group were you worry. my kids, i worry far more about

the environment which we created surrounding drugs, the hysteria because that environment allows police officers to look get my kids like they fit the description of a drug user. and so i fear that interaction. my kids interaction with the police a helluva lot more than i feared the interaction of my kid with charged because i can teach them about jerks. and no drugs are predictable. that's not predictable. >> they both can be avoided by avoiding drug use. >> certainly. my kids might avoid it, but the point is is that there are kids who won't. and so if they do not, you could say by having the education, given the correct information, not only that, you're not only teaching them about drugs but have been critically, teaching them how to evaluate information

which is what we value. >> we talked about legalization. one of things i want to make clear is that i'm not encouraging legalization. i'm for decriminalization. decriminalization looks like this, you do is that drugs are still illegal, but on people caught instead of having a criminal record, they receive a fine suspect there would if they have a driving violation. that way you can give rate of this motion are this impact on the futures. if they get caught them on have a career record and can go one and get a job, maybe become president. as long as we have these things be illegal that this less likely . so in this book you talk about your own experiences.

and the talk goes smoking marijuana, doing cocaine. look at you, you have become extraordinarily successful by any measure. and you say get that most drug users are not going to be involved in crime, although you say addiction and crime are related. you say that most drug users are not going to get involved of criminal and activity. most of jobs. most of full-time jobs. >> was the difference? talking to your son, not to me and say what is the difference between this my way to use the illegal drugs and the dumb one. >> one of the things the you have to do -- of people using illegal drugs or any drugs, even jerks from their physician they should know what the effects are if they take an amphetamine, one of the things that of the men's is really good at doing is keeping you awake. sleep is essential flexure for

human behavior and physiology. if your sleep is disrupted too much to canelo kinds of problems, psychological, elf, wide range of disorders of the necessity would like a sleeper's the destruction. you want to make sure that you're not taking in your bedtime and if you take the you want to make sure you're getting the proper man asleep. if you think he was something like heroin, one of the things that we have failed as a country as to properly educate people about the heroin overdose. the country thinks that it's relatively easy to of the for maryland. this is not true. unsupported by evidence. the problem becomes when heroin is mixed with another set of like all. so 75 percent of a heroin overdose does occur in combination with some dicofol. given that that is the case, the public health message is clear, don't use heroin in combination with another said it.

if you just simply blast that message out to the public we could save a number of lives. we haven't. that's another thing. >> us think about other drugs, cocaine. one of the things that we know is that cocaine as -- it's cut often with these adulterants. it's come with the drug called alabama soil. that's an animal de warmer. one of the side effects is that it decreases white blood cells which means that it decreases the body ability to fight off infection. people can get sick. in extreme cases die. given that is the case you want to make sure people understand that, hey, if you're using cocaine, a large percentage of it nowadays is cat. you might want to stay away from that. that should be -- >> stay away from the cocaine on the street because of what is being cut with. you might want to know what your

drug is being cut with. the adulterants are in many cases more problematic than the actual drug themselves. instead we're too busy trying to vilify our typical drugs, cocaine, heroin, marijuana as opposed to making sure that we educate people. >> i think that again we have gone back to this idea, to say no to drugs. the war on drugs. you point out in the book, more than 3,000 percent increase in the amount of spending on the war on drugs between 1970 and 2011. very little consequence in terms of depressing the amount of use of marijuana, heroin, or cocaine so by that measure not much difference. again, from a parent's point of view, do i really want my children to take their risk and say, well, you know, don't use

this chart with the drug are know that this tour is go with this to be dire really want to educate them in this way if there is the risk that it might say to them, you know what, it's a pity use drugs. >> if you are parenting, focused primarily on drug education you're in trouble. you should be educating your kids about responsibility, their future, all wide range of things. if your parenting is focused on drug use you're already in trouble. my parents in really focuses on drug use. my parenting is making sure that my kids didn't to the proper college, the schools that want to make sure there sats gores or they need to beat. make sure they understand responsibility. make sure they know how to write and communicate. those sorts of things. if your parenting is focused on drugs, you're in trouble. all of these things that i just described, that is the best drug prevention, not this just say no

sort of thing. and if the kids are -- if they are curious and want to know about drugs, teach it. if they do in builds they will at least be saved because we know, i mean, my research -- myself, my research and given over 2,000 doses of these charts. i know these jerks can be given safely. and now they can be administered safely. ami, you don't have to look to my research. you can ask americans to amass the guy in the white house domestic before him, as the gabba for him. ask -- if we think about even president kennedy, he used amphetamines throughout his administration safely. we revere him and think that he made a contribution. so this notion of drugs being so dangerous is misguided and is very limited. >> is it possible people who --

weekend users of heroin or cocaine. and you say this doesn't interfere with their ambition or discipline. is that right? that seems almost counterintuitive that if someone is using such strong cycle active drugs that they are a fully functional member of the community. >> we say strong cycle like to drugs. while the strong this cycle active drugs is nicotine, but we all make that statement that you made. it requires a small amount of nicotine to have its effect. every cigarette design one mg. 1 milligram of the kane wouldn't do anything. so the notion that these drugs are strong is a myth. yeah. >> so you think that when i talk about alcohol and tobacco that they may be more deleterious to my well-being than cocaine or heroin. >> certainly, but the thing that we have to understand is that

with education we can enhance the positive effects of all of these drugs including alcohol, including cocaine, including heroin, and with education we can decrease the negative effects. so the first thing we have to understand is that, yes, there are people who can use cocaine on the weekend, hairline on the weekend, go to work and pay their taxes. the question that you asked about heroin and cocaine, think about asking the same question for alcohol. other people who can drink alcohol in the weekend and then go to work on monday and irresponsible individuals? nine yes, but hell yes. the same is true with cocaine and heroin. the same is true. >> even though again in the american public's mind those two drugs are far more powerful. >> yes. the things that are in the american public's mind sometimes are not right. to be nice. the public, as i said, has just

been miseducated about tracks. >> here we are. here is your book. the book is called a high price, a neurosciences journey of self discovery it challenges everything you know about drugs in society. tell us, what would you say? here you are. would you think that we should know? >> talking about will we should know. i mean, the notion that most of the people who use charts for example are addicted. is not true. most of the people who use drugs to so ago the work. if going to use any drugs he should understand that you should respect the fact that they have potentially powerful psychoactive substances. if you don't use drugs with the respect he run the risk of getting in trouble. so if you know about the effects of the drug your taking, you increase the likelihood.

the internet contains quality-control. like we talked about earlier, i have a textbook on this subject. we talked mainly about the biological effects of jerks on people's behavior, on people. but those kind of things are very dry. the public gets bored. so i think this book is a start. >> explain again, this book is not a textbook in any way. slows to your personal story. and then talking about drug use in your life in your research in combination. some were talking about traduce for example, you mentioned that

you've done cocaine and done it over and amount of time, doing in light twice a month with a girlfriend. is not the case that you ran out of cocaine you would have compunction to go give more or somehow be unable to function because you're using cocaine. instead they talk about larger motivational forces in your life. the desire to earn money and have a lover. these were other forces. less chance for that to a lab. he said in this book, you have to take rats out of this case isolated environment and put them in a more social environment and then you see that they make choices about drug use that does not lead them to kill themselves by constantly pushing a lever. so you're saying to americans is you have to see drugs as part of a normal life.

so you think about the lab, he heard about the stories three feline animal to selflessness are a drug like cocaine able do so until they kill themselves. many of us have heard that we don't hear is that those rats are animals or so isolated, the only thing that they could do was take a pen. certainly if your life consisted of you being in this case in the only thing available was cocaine, that's all you would do now if you put another animal indicates, for example a member of the opposite sex did cain is no wonder is attractive. he put sweetened water in a cage cocaine is no longer is attractive. he put running well in the cage cocaine is no longer attractive to beat and you have these alternatives and airlines and many of us to it decreases the impact of the attractiveness of cocaine or other drugs. we know this is parents.

as citizens we all know that if we have jobs we know that we have to go to our jobs in order to get their respect, regard, and all the rest of these things. if we don't we have nothing. and so sometimes drug use interferes with your ability to do your job, to get this positive regard in these sorts of things. so the cocaine may have to go. that certainly was the case in my life. >> tell us. >> well, with cocaine, as you pointed out, it was just something that was experimenting with a girlfriend. it was fine. it did not interfere with my work. added john, something like ups. it did not interfere with my work, but if it had would not have done it because i know i was going somewhere and had a future in manila wanted to go somewhere else because i knew that if cocaine would have disrupted my ability to make

money in that situation i would grab the girlfriend. >> well done. this is an interesting point. let's say ups said the drug-testing policy and that would have cost you your job and all you felt you were doing was experimenting with a girlfriend but in fact it had this dire consequence for your future the much as we were talking about young men, especially young black man, marijuana, crack, whenever, higher rates of arrest and whites, even if flights to more of the drug. but it has this terrible consequence for the future. so in terms of public policy, are you against drug testing? >> of course. i think that drug-testing, first of all, tells you nothing about the level of intoxication of the person at the moment. so the thing that we are concerned about, particularly in some sense of the job or we

don't want people to be intoxicated on the job. ..

wallace. >> we watched their performance just like on tv when you write your books you look at the performance of it is not up to if part hero keep your job is simple. with drug-testing it provides a false sense of security when in fact, you were not doing anything it doesn't you anything about the area of interest to want to make sure people are performing in doing their job it doesn't tell you anything about that. >> host: one of your interesting points with my argument shouldn't we tell kids don't do drugs? when you say that to a child they are curious and tries them then says my dad like to me because i did drugs and it didn't make me go crazy indebted ruin my

performance in school so the question is honesty. do want them to believe you? but at the same time the child may think i am okay but the be as you were concerned about as a young person it decreases the level of performance whether of the basketball court or in the court room. how you deal with that problem? >> if a child is using drugs. >> host: they say i feel fine to rigo k. but they get up later, not performing as well as finicky respond as a parent obviously if that is your child if they are not handling his or her responsibilities there should be consequences. that what we do as parents but not having the responsibility as a result of drugs or some other

activity, there are consequences. drugs are not special in that way. >> host: they are because of they are illegal they could lead to jail. >> guest: of course. talk about the legality is different i tell my kids black people are more likely to be arrested for drugs therefore if you ever used drugs you don't use some help there. you do so here because i am worried about the police more than anything else. that is all whole different level of concern. but white parents don't have that say level of concern as black parents and we have to understand that. >> host: but i think white parents are worried about their children getting arrested but the statistics it is more likely of children of color to be impacted by the rest in the records in damage to their

future? >> absolutely go to rikers island where the kids are kept. there are no white kids there. we know that. the. >> host: the book is called "high price" by dr. carl hart you talk about an episode of your use in miami you saw of may and, of white man shot in retaliation than your sister is shot and it is all drug-related. you understand the negative consequences from people that think i can't handle drugs, no big deal i ever weekend user. is a that contradictory? that it doesn't damage anything? >> guest: my sister being shot that was not drug-related it was the beef >> host: i thought there

was a drug element to that. >> guest: but the white guy that was there simply to buy marijuana but there was an incident that happened earlier in the day with some other white guys in the black guys in my neighborhood that was more race and he just happened to be buying marijuana in the neighborhood. so the problem here was race. >> host: that was racial tension in 1980. but then it leads to the shooting of your sister but drugs just seem to be part of in this emphasizes the point you make in the book of the larger social structure in tension, poverty tension, poverty, abandonmen t, all of the issues with drugs come into it today act as a catalyst to speed up negative reation cynical

or exacerbat problems. absolutely >> host: so is it best to say just say no to drugs? >> it is best if you are white and middle-class because they don't have to worry so much of the consequences of the environment that is set up to just say no because you act as if the drug itself set these up but they have to get rid of the drugs because we said they are awful but they are not. those who pay the consequences are people who look like you and me. i cannot accept that as a black person or an educator it is not consistent with teaching people how to think. >> host: because people are curious try things and we want to

decrease the harm counties said you said if you are a white parent might make sense to say no but why would that make a difference as a black parent? >> guest: my point is that single approach to be done with it. but when you take that a single approach there is also other actions that occur. we say just say no that means we have set up an environment where drug czar bad to go after them at any cost and the cost is afeard from the black community. i am not saying apparent a whole should tell their kid they should use drugs. i an not suggesting that. >> host: you have referred to nicotine, and alcohol as

drugs. we don't have much discussion about that in the book but the question in ochers so what would you tell somebody that there are so many that smokes cigarettes or drink alcohol mo tnarijuana and cocaine and heroin for together so what would you say about the intelligence use of those drugs? >> guest: thinking about alcohol drinking has been associated with decreased heart rate, with moderate drinking. fill cochlear beneficial effects just one people overindulge is when they get in trouble every society needs the intoxicant. if you ban alcohol good but because every society needs that. >> host: we did try it. >> guest: we did. but in terms of tobacco and

also has positive effects to enhance your memory and alertness. some people understand that it keeps the weight off and that is a little more problematic for me because of the potential for cancer but the vast majority do not get cancer or the awful diseases so i don't want to get crazy about that either but i want people to understand there are potential consequences and benefits and people make these calculations of the risk benefit ratio. whether new york city or smoking tobacco wheat way those all the time.

>> host: so in this case what you say is moderation and knowing what you we're doing, is that similar to the way you view what we have deemed to be illegal drugs, marijuana or cocaine or heroin? a. >> guest: that is a difficult question because they are illegal activity so the short answer is absolutely if you use these drugs know what you're doing. now this is a whole different conversation we have had about drugs. we are adolescent when we talk about drugs but i try to make sure we have a conversation to treat people like their intellectual adults. yes. know what those drugs do period cahow to the village

used in moderation they should know the negative side effects, and they should know everything about the drug. if they do that, not only are they improving their skills in this area but critical sinking skills. >> host: that is an absolute requirement for success. now when you look at the effects were mind altering effects of drugs coming which will reduce say is the most dangerous? >> guest: and it depends on the user. if you are older with cardiovascular blood pressure issues he probably one to stay away from the amphetamines with those types of drugs. it depends on who we talk

about or what conditions. there are a number of young people in the country taking amphetamines for attention deficitr the same drug as methamphetamine. but he would not encourage older people to take the same drug. so what might be safe for one group may not be safe for another. >> host: when it comes to the casual use subversive is an addiction that your definition is it doesn't interfere with parenting parenting, work, or relationships. >> guest: just not my but the american psychiatric association. what i described in the book. >> host: when we talk about addiction and people who become ddicted come give me a description who

was at risk and why. >> guest: when we think about addiction one of the things americans has done that is inappropriate is that we acted as if the drug is special like the addiction has less to do with the pharmacology but a lot if they are plugged into society, responsible, of wide range of social factors but what we have done in the country is have paid less attention to those things because it is sexy to talk about the fact they were responsible before they started using drugs in this person was overindulging in a wide range of behavior so instead we choose to focus on the biology what does the brain looks kee ll a somebody is addicted by looking at

their brain? held no. no evidence suggests that but that is where we are looking. we should be. but that has the reduced amount of attention rather than things we know are valuable. look at the environment as a person. >> host: that is where you would go with the addicted you were dealing with the addict was not simply in prison or punish the person but look at how we can restructure the environment. in the book you talk about a drug user and the setting the they used to here we talk about the terms of a and trying to have mediation for the addict you say look at the larger society and the setting for that individual. but what if you can? you cannot give them to parents raise a good school or they are not ing

in the work world? wowith that person that indulges to the point of addiction? >> guest: we cannot control every buddies environment but i don't know the answer for them that we have to decide as a society, i think we have that we prefer to lock them up. i think that is inappropriate but how about if we give them job skills? or give them responsibility so they feel better about themselves? that we will try to make sure that they pay taxes at the least thing contributing to society. >> host: when we talk about drug policy there is a number of states that are legalizing marijuana. and a large debate if it should be nationally

legalize. what position do you as a narrow scientists have on marijuana legalization? >> guest: only two states. washington and colorado. it is important to understand there the widest states and the union so when we think about marijuana legalization in places that is more dippers it won't happen and how i feel in general of legalization, i think we should decriminalizing all drugs first because we need to have the corresponding education before we make them more widely available. without corresponding education, then reset ourselves up for problems. so free will ultimately legalize i'm not saying vacation and not the right

we need to really increase our education and that means we need to stop having police officers provide drug education or politicians provide drug education and when people talk about drugs we can ask the questions questions, does that information have foundation? >> you say you don't let the politicians to talk about the police the u.n. them to talk about it as educators? >> i don't know if i want all of these scientists because they have a narrow focus. i want the public and the people to save the permission you are relating to me. >> i did not understand at

the start that colorado and washington are mostly state -- white? >> it is different but drug legalization one of the reasons, so we legalize marijuana. >> host: i the people who want to use that without fear? >> right to. some of the energy that is pushing this is the large numbers of marijuana are resting in racial disparity one negative disparity there is a new report today by the aclu that shows nationwide black people are four times more likely to be arrested for marijuana even though they used it at the same rate as white folks. so much of the fuel for this is racial disparity.

when i am saying is even though that is the case and states of which, if there is no projection of those numbers. >> host: there's something missing most of the black people are in the southern part of the country and overwhelmingly dominated by the republican conservative politicians who i think far less likely to be open to the idea of drug legalization. you suggesting black politicians are resistant? i did not think so. what is your point? >> guest: this is my prediction that in states that have large numbers of black folks. >> host: because white people are afraid that the blacks will get intoxicated?

water you saying? >> actually at that point i don't know. let's move on. >> host: but do you support or oppose as reseeded in washington state? >> i appreciate whenever the voters vote for. i think it is a good move by washington and i am happy to see that. but they are pushing the envelope and forcing the conversation. >> host: musec courier you are not in favor of to recanalization. but in this case you say it is okay to it illegal. but i support those of

washington to pursue topics into the discussion. if you ask me what we should do we should criminalize 90 and legalize. >> was the movement to legalize the use of cocaine done the same way? >> yes. but i would encourage the american people please get proper education on these drugs. >> host: when you hear about public instances with the case the trayvon margin down in florida, there is a young man 1617 when he died who had sold some marijuana and used it should that be allowed into the court proceedings when it comes to evaluating who he was? >> this goes back to the

early articles written negro cocaine's seen one of the reasons for the defense is so adamant to bring in his traduce history is because they are playing on the perception of drug users and those perceptions i try 2.0 are wrong. they're counting on those such that people will see him as less than human then they conjure up baldie images that are incorrect. it infuriates me this becomes an issue. >> especially for a young man of color. >> you think if he was latino he would have less chance? >>. >> guest: no. not that but whether black

or latino this is the ethnicity. a black latino is a suspicious characteristic is race but not what they speak for goodyear understand i'm saying? >> host: see you say it is color. but it is black. >> guest: i think that is important and absolutely the darker the skin in the neighborhood plays a role. not to say that obviously in new york city we rest of a lot of hispanic and black people but in this case i am asking you to be specific talking about trayvon martin who is black, we can talk about in the bronx the kid gramm that was killed in his bathroom he was black because he thought he had marijuana on him. i am just asking you to be specific as a person of

color. it is o.k. but we're talking about trayvon martin lee both know he is black. >> host: in the history of the united states you think of the chinese being caricatured as opium users and crazy on drugs and again you think of the latino community of the engine of cocaine fiend and cocaine is completely ruining fat community. >> host: i am not familiar with that one. >> host: even think dusk or face the movie but. >> host. >> guest: the thinking of scarf days we did not pass a lot as a result of scarred face is that eighties like in miami when i corrupt but we did pass a law about kaine when we saw the images of the black

people but scarred face was a cuban immigrant there was no laws in the 1980's the murder rate was peaking in the country. >> host: using their directed against black people? >> that is saddam the marais argument that the evidence is there. >> host: i think the most prominent arguments to support your case is the disparity powder cocaine vs. crack cocaine in the point being crack cocaine use mostly by black people the poor people of black people versus powder cocaine use by white people. >> guest: the data that white people use more crack cocaine them by people but there is the perception

black people use a that a greater rate so the perception in drove for the law enforcement efforts were placed. >> host: going back to your argument, if you are introducing cocaine at a law firm among people who have prominent status, family come income verses into a community with large scale dysfunction, poverty, oppres sion, it seems to me there will be a different result. >> guest: yes. absolutely we talked about this earlier where drugs are any other illegal activity will exacerbate those problems. >> host: so then why use a day you are wrong to crack down on that community with a more devastating impact? >> guest: i would say you are wrong to crack down with

the drug policy to single out drugs is the reason for the problems you described. drugs are less of the problem then employment and education. >> host: many argue with this. >> guest: absolutely. >> host: what i know who living in washington d.c. that if you suddenly have people pop up in crack houses in your community it depresses the value of real-estate and drives away small stores, retail sales and makes the community less attractive than they think they should move out. those are very negative effects. >> guest: and stan the point. >> host: so i would rather not see drugs come into my community whole scale. >> guest: who would?

that is my point then that would not have been. that is not what we want. that is not what i am arguing. >> but in terms of social policy is should not be directed as the pork lack neighborhood but i think they're more vulnerable to stabilize with the drug dealers trying to plant the flag. >> guest: first of all, if you make sure people have jobs and if you go into poor black neighborhoods, yes there are jobs with educational and economic opportunities but they knew introduced drugs? >> guest: that is your

side the way you characterize it as overly simplistic. first of all,, when you say said courage job to make sure people are not breaking the law. but the consequences of catching people should not be so dire that the -- they are ruined as a result but all of this undercover activity, we don't need that. but as opposed to police officers that you never knew he wears hygiene? so have them do their job. so make sure they have the opportunity for meaningful appointment. >> host: if you are a drug

dealer looking for a vulnerable population, you look for places where you can establish dominance, i would thank you would go to that community to do it. >> guest: this is a myth. >> host: that is what i want to hear. >> i am a drug dealer i will go to the poorest place i can go to? that is not how works. we thought my friends and meath that they were making all of this money. they weren't put the notion they were making many they weren't but if they're the most appealing there only appealing if there is no other alternative that is more attractive. >> host: i did not get your point because as i said that comes back to why they

choose those communities because suddenly they are the super hero the has the most money to provide speakers. >> guest: my point is those communities have no money in the first place of drug dealers cannot survive if the community does not have money. >> host: the drug dealers can develop markets with people were vulnerable, needy or feel they need to be marginalized and there are white people coming by drugs if the dealers will survive. >> the wife could come here but that is where they are. you don't need for a drive-by shooting playing out in the affluent communities. >> guest: in the early 1800's.

>> host: the white communities? >> extended beyond the black community. you raised the "scarface" example but i say in general >> host: the shootings and rivalries is for black but when the markets are new and it happened with crack cocaine. that settles down and you don't see that thing in the more. but but i certainly don't want to do downplaying the fact people are killed but that has been one of the major points driving what we do in did is shortsighted

and limited. and what challenges everything you know, about drugs here society. want to remind you have 46 an associate professor of psychology at one negative psychiatry at the national advisory council and a board member of the college of drug dependency and has done 22 years of research in narrow cycle pharmacology and it has been a real pleasure to learn about you as well as the book. congratulations on your book. >> guest: thank you.

and not. >> one of the things i allied late to start talking udall and exactly what is my real the autistic traits when does it become michael got to some? everybody probably has a limit -- a little bit of optimism in silicon valley. one and maybe steve jobs the guy who fixes the copier machine that the other end you have people that are much more

handicapped, nonverbal and lived in this situation -- supervised living situation. take einstein was no speech until three what would happen today? it makes you shudder. wait too many drugs given to these kids. i can be an invented but research has shown you get more creative with family histories of people with autism you have more technical and it just had a big disadvantage and 1.it is a normal variation but dealing with autism is the word there are so many different people covered by this word some of the

diagnosis has changed. once easier have to be all you don't. but the american psychiatric associatassociat ion has a book and when the first to version came out they thought autism was caused by a seiko analytic problems than the horrible face when the parents were planning to but then they did not even mention it at all but then left the dock but in the third edition you had to have speech to lay in on said the for three years of age and then in the early dainties they added asper years but no speech to light so when the anc comes out they will take out the us burgers and make all optimism than make a new

communication category but that doesn't make much sense because social communication problems it is part of the court's criteria of autism. it is a moving target that just keep changing and changing. one of the savings to cover in detail is since three problems with dyslexia, a ph.d., and since to freeing dollar rent you cannot be in a noisy planes stationed but i'm a kid when the school bell went off they're hurts my ears but the way to desensitize is let the kid initiate the sound and others cannot stand fluorescent lights they flicker like us strobe light.

sometimes using pale colored pastel paper helps but i cannot stand scratchy close against my skin for you will not get wall against my skin but cotton does not sensory problems is an area we need to be doing research johnson's three issues. but with facial recognition we know all about that. but we're not doing enough studies on how to deal with sensory problems. in one of the chapters my co-author has done a great job to get material together and i have to think kim going through the whole book to get that done. one of my favorite chapters i talk about the different kind of mind and the brain

and i want to try the technology but what it showed up in the classroom with the activities that i did but when it came to skiing, he fell out why cerebellum was there life year center the amygdala was larger than normal to explain why i had so much anxiety going through puberty had terrible anxiety problems but that is now controlled with medication. a lot of people are super inches were the depressant can't help but what turned me on was from back in 2006 and scientist found i had a great big huge visual track

that would explain a visual thinking then they found out my math is trashed because i have spinal fluid that trashed out that area. [laughter] and one of the things i can't do is remember long sequences of information. when i had a job at the dairy there was about 10 steps to set up the equipment if i did not have the list of would have been trouble but i would have to make my own little less than then in the future we can do a precise diagnosis because the greatest thing now is the university of pittsburgh handed maps so white matter.

and we look in the brain for speak what i see and it has greatly reduced bandwidth. i speak what i hear so in the future you could use this scanning to figure out where the problem is. since three issues, a different types of language problems, faced the kid just fine but they have absolutely no idea what they mean. because the meaning circuit is not hooked up. one of my favorite chapters that when i first wrote sinking in pictures i thought everybody was a photo realistic visual thinker like me and

everybody thought that way. but not everybody on the spectrum face that way. then i started to interview people about how they would think but it is a photo realistic picture if i think about the terminal in chicago, i see a glass structure then a crystal palace and the biosphere in arizona, i am in a class structure category but they are all specific class structures. and i unseeing flat when they try van epitaxy but for it to explore and they have

interesting weird stuff but that is worth of restrictions fetch sphere negative war but i got to see king at everything is in pictures. lot of kids can do algebra but they can do geometry. then another kit on the high end is a math genius and the pattern thinking mind. face the ink to a new head of the circuit why is something? the be aware so often they often have trouble with reading if they're suddenly good in math then give them

the harder math book don't make them do baby mass. but then the guy who knows all the facts about baseball players for chrome what could i see what type of there like the mammoth medics to doing so may whom's in this spring. there been a routine but then some thinkers he got them to think it was just words. >> the audit terry student the reason she didn't learn anything is because she had visible crotch problems and sometimes they get discorded

-- distorted but we need to have a different kind of mind working together as we can visually let's look at the foucault -- fukushima no that made a visual thinker like me the reason the reactors burned up as they made a mistake no visual thinker would ever make. i cannot design a nuclear reactor but i would not put the emergency cooling equipment in the basement that was not waterproof. that is what they did. people don't work under water very well. i just have to know if that pond does not work i am in so much trouble it is now even funny. i can understand that.

even working on my book, mayor richard rose might monday gymnastics capture but is another example but in the movie is a producer took a long time to get the right team of people. the writer gives the structure but jackson understood by visual thinking and the uh the movie did but universal across the spectrum is called bought about thinking of giving should be learned by example. if you want to teach your kids what up means you go up the hill and i walked up a hill you have to give

specific examples for price think since we're inside the beltway with government we need to get more bottom-up thinking in one thing that worries me of government is the abstract vacation you have people with a degree in political science to work in government but they don't know about the practical world how those policies will affect mr. jones over here and sally over there. but i look at things and the disadvantage is to get out to look at different things. one of my very big concerns of the higher end of the spectrum to many young people today much milder than i am are not getting jobs. they have not learned work skills. you have to stretch these kids.

my mother had a really good instinct on how to stretch me. icy kids today that don't know how to shop for go up to a counter to order food. little timmy will get his own stuff and we will start off when it's not busy or noisy don't just throw them in the deep bench. [laughter] but no surprises. when i was 15 i was afraid to go to meighen's ranch. i had a choice to weeks or one week or all summer but not going was not the issue. [laughter] because i see too many individuals become the video game playing recluse. i have a lot of trouble in

high school i was or why was teased and i was kicked out after throwing a book at a girl. [laughter] so i was thrown out of school and i went to special boarding school. the first years i a didn't do any studying but i learned to work. i cleaned the lot of forestalls and i was brad -- proud of the fact iran the worst form but it was a lot of hard work and the headmaster learned that when i was 13 i had a selling job send ahead dishing gold the barn roof and i learned how to work the discipline of work then internships one of those in work data research lab and i had to rent a house with another baby so i had a ton of work skills then in arizona working on

my master's i like to make signs silent to the arizona state fair to put me to work and i painted signs for the carnival. then i knew how to do free-lance then i walked up to the editor at the magazine and i got his card just like in the movie i started to write one article at a time that i painted signs and that grew into designing things one little project at a time that is why build up my business. people thought i was weird but when i showed them my portfolio you have to show them your work some leverage show people might drawings in my work. we also have to figure out how to get in the back door. you never know for you will meet the person that you can show your portfolio to. get your kids are work on

your phone or computer programming people put a lot of rubbish in their portfolio. [laughter] then learn things like sex and religion and politics we don't need that at work. keep it at home. the other thing is if you find an employer who makes an appropriate and there is a scene with that boss slam down a stick of tudor and said used it i was upset that i think can now that bothers me to see that smart kids going nowhere because they don't know the discipline to doing work. we need to start teaching work skills at 12 than 13 years old. it used to be a paper route but we don't have those anymore.

what about walking dogs? doing something they have got to do every day there is a discipline to that what about working at the farmers' markets or shopping for groceries for old folks or power point presentation to fixing computers? they have to be involved with a shared interest or into the robotics club or this sketch club to do 3-d drawing board trauma or the school play or pay and/or music but the only place i was not teased with special interest they were not doing the teasing then the science teacher got me motivated to study.

to finish the formal part of my talks is autism's such a big spectrum? with someone that is nonverbal to working in silicon valley. that is difficult but of course, i relate to it to those and i want them to succeed to talk to apparent last night their son is happy running the electronic projection in new york they got him out of the house he became an usher in did not like that so he migrated to the attic with the electronic things now he runs that. another great job for a

total does the museum tour guides they will take the metro for 13 then they have to learn how to greet people don't stand too close and they have to learn those. [laughter] but what i want to do right now they have the microphone and we will switch back and forth and we will get some good discussion going because that is the part i like. , and get up to the microphone. [applause] >> if nobody gets up there i will pick somebody. we have an icebreaker spee it. >> came here to break the ice i don't have words for my admiration for you.

talk about limited verbal ability he is a spanish speaker into speak very fast and i would not diagnose you with anything. >> a person with optimism that is why you have to expose them to interesting things i got golf fixated but now if i had not seen them in the movie yet would not have seen that. i always use the same phrases but to get more information to fill up the database of the mind so you imagine autistic kids with the md internet develop full of stuff because to understand something in the future i have to relate it back to something in the database. i found a good group that has an extra fiber. >> i have a follow-up

meeting the first chapter while waiting my husband can stand loud noises and in crowded places my daughter cannot stand the feeling of felt and i cannot be granted the back of an elevator are we all just on the spectrum that goes in different directions like this one has to do with that? >> that is the point genetics is incredibly complicated little:variations and a lot of these traits are part of a normal variation but been you have people that will not do high-level jobs. they are not a verbal, they have difficulty doing daily living skills but this is the problem. you have severe autism and

parents have a child so severe they cannot do normal activities. by the time of his fiver six we could do normal activities like have sunday dinner and go to a movie or to a museum without a temper tantrum or shopping in the supermarket. but then there are individual so severe you cannot do that. it is a very big specter but a point when does it become bipolar? i like manic depressive i think it describes them. [laughter] when does it become depression? it is a continuous. >> thank you for everything done for animals as well. >> it is a lot of work things of god and better but they can keep on improving but eighties and nineties were the battle.

>> the first read about you in 30 days ago and became an admirer. could you make a few comments about your empathy for animals before slaughter? and do you still do this squeezebox? >> one of the things the held me to understand animals is being a visual thinker i talk about an animal living in the us sensory based worlds of in the first work with cattle i would go down to the issue to see what they were seeing there would be afraid of a chain or a reflection or a hose on the ground if you got rid of these distractions they would walk up the chute also the behavior at the slaughterhouse was the better neary shoot but the stress was the same in both places. being a visual thinker

helped me to imagine that sense in the cattle and people think they're getting slaughtered in that is something i had to answer my first target at the swift plant actually this was back in the '70s it was fairly decent. they behave the same way their up the veterinary shoot. they knew they were going to get slaughtered if they would have jumped out. favor very capable but they didn't. so how can you care about animals than for them to be slaughtered? >> they would not exist if we did not raise them we have to give the animal life that is worth living. and pushing them too hard