weapon systems and this kind of fantasy foster had in the early 70's was becoming more and more plausible. >> as you said and you write in the peace the final version emerged in the 1990's as the so-called predator. how was that used and what was its purpose? >> well, it was first used in an actual setting in bill clinton, and at the time it was -- they just had a camera, but again i was like foster's vision. it was a very small lightweight plane that existed in the hundreds. it flies over the territory and has a camera. the camera takes digital footage. the images are transmitted to a satellite, which in turn beams it down to the headquarters which could be on the other side

of the earth, and then somebody is sitting in a monitor with a joystick watching the imagery on the monitor controlling the movements. it's like a video game. at the time it was not an armed drone. and 2000 the cia and the pentagon developed an armed version and the explicit purpose of that project was to go find and kill osama bin laden. so, around the turn of the century, the turn of the new century, the drone that that had been devised as a cold war weapon became adapted into what became known as the war on terror. and then it became a lot at that point. >> you write in your piece that would be -- it became -- the air force decided that it would be ideal for fleeting and perishable targets.

what would that have meant under the previous war and what did it mean in 2001? >> fleeting and terrible and the old days it might have been a tank that could move. you had to get it right away or a ship that was moving out. and a terrorist and a jeep or a convoy of trucks carrying weapons into iraq on afghanistan or the house where some of qaeda terrorists happened to be but they might leave at any minute. so that is what has been used and we can go into this leave her and i sure that we will. but it has become such a convenient and easy technology that has come to make the war a

little bit easier than it should be treated >> you right in here we talk about the people that pushed this technology. what about the people that opposed it? >> initially and really up until about 2007 the air force which developed this within didn't like it at all, and tried to halt. the time the air force culture was practical, fighter planes, pilots and fighter planes moving fast, and for a while you might remember the big project of the air force was the f-22 fighter. ..

>> calling for more drones to help them deal with more threats on the ground in iraq. the airforce insisted because they had the knee and fighters versus the slow a knee and plain it did not have its own mission to supporting the army and the marines. i think quite literally production was stepped up to first the air force resisted

production but then when gates ordered the production rate to slow down the delivery he ordered acceleration of delivery they slow down the appointment. finally day fire the four-star general in the assistant secretary of the air force it brought in a new staff general schwartz who was not a fighter pilot one negative fighter pilot or bomber like all previous but involved with the eritreans for in special operations with martin -- army of people so to come up through the ranks of the joint operations. immediately the appeal for what drones we're in iraq

and the afghan teeter. -- theater. and because of bad had the use of drones to start go up >> host: we are talking with a fred kaplan contributor to m.i.t. technology review about the history and technology drones also the author of a book called the insurgents the american way of of four. when the go back to your piece we write the fall of 2009 to the end of the first year as president the air force had more drone joystick pilots and cockpit pilots so how does this you fold after 2009? >> guest. they proliferate.

there are other models fitter bigger, the greater insurance stated in the air for a long period of time and also upheld the start to develop very small drones. so they can look around the corner and looked into a cave if somebody is there. the monitors are in the field. also 50 countries syndromes and about 16 of them have drones better armed only a few countries in the united states and with the appeal

so if you have a bad guy in yemen you don't have to send planes that could get shot down, you send a drone over henhawk en did drop a very small ball on either laser-guided small in very accurate, and it is so accurate it doesn't do much damage. there were a few hundred civilians killed over the past few years from the drone strike from the united states of most of them have not been because of missing the target but they got bad intelligence of who was in the house or civilians in

the same room. for president or a commander with a rock and afghanistan were 6,000 people died 16,000 severely injured so then they use though wonder weapon that seems they can get a job done without putting in american in the way. >> host: a longtime national security reporter, a fred kaplan is an author of the insurgents and has written other books now the war stories columnist for slate magazine in contributed to the latest edition of m.i.t. technology review of the history and capability of drones.

we have a democratic caller. >> caller: i am a retired air force pilots i instilled quite involved here at the air force base and your comment of the rudder playlet versus a drone pilot it's still exist but also your timeline to talk about a defensive weapon as opposed that back in the '50s when i had the b-52 and that was a drone. >> guest: wall was the range of that? i am talking about you are right to. you're absolutely right.

but i am talking about the drone or the unmanned aerial units which has considerable range in the state in the air 24 hours at a time it is armed and sends back intelligence to a command base halfway around the world and is being controlled by someone sitting at the command base. so with that definition is how we speak of it now, that has been around that long. >> host: he wants to know what type of plane you used to fly. >> caller: i flew with tinker along in the economic i was strategic air command most of the time that is with the b-52.

i do understand you are absolutely right the latter-day was called the offensive weapon in fact, i saw those and i was amazed at the size and they were drone -- favors huge. >> guest: i agree. the people involved with the program i used to actually refrain from using it but injury in the lexicon. >> so to know about the technology how much gas can you put on board? >> guest: i would have to go look that up. the range it depends.

to stay aloft between 24 and 48 hours, if you can imagine putting it is very light that you can see pictures on line is very narrow with communications gear so they could go for quite a distance until they can have that at the top of my head. >> host: and independent caller from illinois. >> caller: good morning.

[inaudible] i am understand the predator of the modern-day drone forgive me but. >> guest: it depends what you define as a prototype with desert storm but there weren't very many. those missiles that were dropped and cnn would shows some footage over and over.

it could have been 9% of only the total bombs dropped it cost about a quarter million dollars. now it is like 15 or $20,000. but what is used as a platform for weapons from the gulf war. >> host: now responding to what you had to say earlier by the civilian death. >> yes no drones our murdering people invading privacy in the united states.

>> tell us about that. >> guest: again, the government doesn't give official totals on how many people were killed. peter berg and who is a very good journalist and a researcher is going to open data government reports and came up with figures again, it is arranged but 320 people have been civilians that have been killed. now here is the interesting thing. on the one hand compared to others this is a pretty

small number. there is about four civilians killed for every combat in did you have one civilian killed for every 10 but most of the time what inspired a lot of the criticism is there using countries where they are not at war. pakistan, somalia, yemen, pl aces like this. for red drone assault in the middle of the war with a sniper in the few civilians as a result but that doesn't happen. but a drone that comes out of the middle of nowhere

where people to lift this area that is something extraordinary but that is not very many people but to save the mexican government they're going after drug users and believe that they were hiding out. and they drop a drone on the house in half a dozen american civilians are dead. civilians. that doesn't sound like much but we're not in war with mexico we have nothing to do with this drug dealer.

the american people and the american president should be all raged. it is interesting. he has used drones quite a lot and he said in an interview this is an area that did drone inspires so much resentment in the country that it is used that these kinds of wars one thing we're trying to do was not just kill the enemy but affect apart in the mind of the people in the end of the weapon kills insiders but it is also alienating.

>> so the problem with drones is it makes it easy it is inevitable that the power would be abused. what gives the power the president to strike in countries that we are not at war with? and what position does he take? >> guest: there was something passed after september 11 with the use of military force. but what its affiliate's mean for anyone with a future terrorist operation.

that is the title of my article that is the basis that which obama ordered drone strike. as the drones have devolved they have been using the drones for people certainly not even members of al qaeda but the haqqani networking in pakistan the operations have been excluded. with western pakistan and afghanistan but obama

justice department had legal interpretation of the authorization of military force to be justifying the use of the drones. the military controls the use of drones and the california controls the use of drones like pakistan so to get that ability back that only a handful of lawmakers could have access to.

even with the expanded legal authority of the obama administration has given cover the actual use is small. in 2010 the united states dropped 110 weapons in pakistan so far it is 13 this year. so it is going down. but to be at of the drones but not with the long-term consequences. >> host: here is the tweet from the viewers the pilot knows they are not in danger but if the president makes the call to strike the

alleged terrorist? >> guest: not always. the president does sometimes but usually when there is a situation when the identity of the target is not known known, then the president does get involved in research and military commanders but it is definitely true the pilot is not in any danger now some people think like with the video game to set there but studies have shown that the drug pilots actually go through the same levels of

anxiety and weariness that regular pilots do. if you think about if you're in the f-16 right now flying around one of the great airplanes of the day having fun it is almost never used. but you are looking down at the ground but after that when you go home for dinner. it is a very weird discombobulated task. you go through many of the same emotions that a pilot in the air over the battlefield on the ground.

>> host: according to u.s. air force figures with 43 service members including seven in joystick pilots and seven system operators, and five mission and creditors backed by a 66% intelligence unit including 18 analyst and 54 video crew members and they also told me that a drone weapon will not be fired unless up presents is confirmed by at least two sources intelligence or cellphone intercept or on the ground. let's go to florida. go-ahead. >> caller: but it will get the israeli tank units she

wanted to be able to see is there any usage of the drones with the civilian type of plane? >> the first question i am pretty sure with a quite a number of drones but strictly reconnaissance argues did many cities in the united states. i think this is often overstated to talk about drones and black helicopters and we will start killing people in the street. but the idea that some people have the government

will start killing people with drones. why do you have to? if you want to kill somebody then shoot them with a gun. the reason we use drones is that it is hard to get somebody on the ground. i just want to say something with the numbers of all the people and there is a notion that they are a robot and pretty soon they will pick out the target themselves and fire automatically and take out the entire operation. but right now with the military philosophy is the only and may and aerial vehicle there are lots of lots of people in every aspect of this operation.

and i see no trend. >> host: we have a republican callers. >> caller: i will talk about the original drone program i worked in drug production in the early '90s i thought the u.s. navy launched the program in the mid '80s. but i thought from pakistan and yemen the base was there so there was a complected authorization but at the same time at the benefit to get rid of the bad guys. >> guest: i am glad you raised that point. it is true.

and from the recent debate in europe over the nsa surveillance that the government did not know this was going. but in pakistan while the pakistan the people are protesting americans and the government is letting them is the basis for most of the drones to be inside pakistan. and with yemen, the same thing come of these strikes were authorized. once in awhile you will see the government really raising a stink over a particular one. and then the bases were shut down.

there were drones in the sense of the unmanned vehicles but it is not the same kind of drone they are talking about. >> host: what countries has the u.s. used the drones in? >> guest: iraq, afghanistan iraq, afghanistan, pakistan, the yemen, somalia, i think that is it. i may have missed one is using reconnaissance drones over other countries. >> host: is targetting civilians in wartime? >> guest: a very interesting question. that is the issue. you can target with someone

that you think is a combatant. it turns out that a civilian is in the room and they get killed. is that a war crime? i don't know. there are lawyers with diehard critics who think a lot of drone strike said the united states of pakistan are countries that we're not out more when they're not they know about it is illegal or targeted assassination. that is against the u.s. and international law. they had to manipulated to for the use of military force act if you get around

the prohibition so it is a very interesting and legal question but the court tends to side with the government on a national security issue keeping the secrets secret are just on the basics it has not got the full test. >> host: here is a tweet obama ran on opposition what happened? spinach know he didn't really. going against the iraq war he campaigned for getting in deeper to afghanistan.

said that we do need to send some of them to reinforce. he did not campaign one where the other on the drones. there is a lot of people who have come up with the mythical ideas there is no campaign against drones. >> host: let's go to the caller from tennessee. >> one book called area 51 and in the other one says what is really going on. what will we do when the other countries start to do the same thing to us and how

far above the property can they fly? >> guest: this is a serious issue. normally it does not last long but we have in advantage to be a long way from the countries that want to do harm to us all the we found out with september 11 that that only goes so far hall is a little harder for the drones to go long way a little easier to put them up in space but yes, this will happen at some point.

the second question of privacy of her head i don't think there is any. and i don't think so. they invented some x-ray machine to go through the house but i don't think the cameras looking is an invasion of privacy. >> host: with petraeus to change the american way of for that is the title of the new book so what was david petraeus role in the use of drones? is that what they're talking about in the book? >> the book is completely different it is about the rise of the counter insurgency there is a news file the role that petraeus and a small group of intellectual officers around

them has on military policy and culture in a rack with the changing view of war. they relied on drones to some degree and was involved when he was the cia director with the use of drones in countries where we are not at war is a cia operation he would have been involved. >> host: and contributing to the latest addition of the m.i.t. review here is the latest cover he is also of the author of the insurgents. fake you for your time this morning. we appreciated.

>> guest: your welcome. >> we will talk about the role of the u.s. and afghanistan with the plans to withdraw u.s. forces ned share in he will join this from the airfield also the author of blood of tyrants george washington in the forging of the presidency. live on c-span every morning. >> the egyptian army overthrew the government led by president morsi. the chief spoke to the public outlining the government's going forward. this is courtesy of belgium's zero tv. >> we have a statement coming in and let's listen. >> of the egyptian people to

live up to the responsibility the egyptian armed forces was the first to declare and is still declaring that it is standing for the political process. the armed forces the egyptian people is calling for the power of through with the specific responsibility to answer the demands of the revolution. this is the message received

by the forces. and inter and this was repeated by the egyptian armed forces and it has understood the essence of the message to be with the trust and responsibility. the egyptian armed forces over the past month has exerted a concerted effort to contain the situation within for all the institutions including the

presidency of november last. so which all the political and patriotic forces that responded. it was rescinded of the presidency. many have the following. the egyptian armed forces similarly on more than one occasion presented a strategic assessment which contained the most eminent challenges at the security economic and social of the egyptian armed forces that

contained the division and confront the challenges for the current crisis. as to follow the current prices the command of the armed forces with the presidential palace in 2013 it presented the opinion of any assault to escape prosecution and also the call of the massive the egyptian people to call for a national reconciliation for a road map to the future to give stability to the people living up to their

aspiration and hope. but yet the address of the president yesterday end of full party ultimatum it did not meet the demand of the masses of the people with its responsibilities to confront and socially aware of the leading parties agree upon a future roadmap whereby a that the egyptian society is achieved without marginalizing any political to put an end to the state of division.

but the early election when they are elected chief justice will have the power to pick a broad national government to be at full power of the current affair and including the proposed

government which is suspended. so to call for the parliamentary election in the charter of ethics with the guarantee that leave us with their precious freedom to leave this with our national interest but to empower you to take part in the key players in the decisionmaking process. and having acceptance among all and presented to all parties. the egyptian army forces

will present the people and will maintain a peaceful demonstration. violence would bring about further attention. and the armed forces warda that it will stand up firmly in cooperation with the ministry security to keep under the rule of law under their responsibility. the armed forces extend all appreciation to the egyptian armed forces with the continued sacrifice to maintain the safety of the community and ejected in the

egyptian people. may god's peace be upon you.

>> the son did shine that it was just the cool kind of racism but not even the small towns are the city's so the only land available were patches literally it is so sold deal looks like it snowed. this was the land that is available to them and they built their wooden shack here, no water they had to go to town to fetch the water no city

sewers, outhouses, no police in the area. it was a no man's land. >> coming out this fall called the romney family table. and romney is the author. when did you find time to put this together? >> god be enough i have done one before but nobody would know that and having a

mother and grandmother who is a fantastic cook in being enormously blessed with the only voice when they have time to get married i thought all of the family traditions in recipes will be lost because my boys are boys. so i made a cookbook a family favorite thing gave it to the daughters of law so i had five copies. so it has been greatly expanded but the other amazing things that happened is my love of cooking the love that the family table will be passed on to some of my sons and they actually do cook so in the cookbook from my son joshua or craig gained -- it did get passed

down a little bit. that is how it started and after the campaign was over my son said you should put together a cookbook hall wrote i thought that would be fine but it is not like a normal cookbook because it has a lot of family traditions, stories, written material, i think it will be interesting people will say we know who mulroney is but i think they will be really surprised when they open this up getting to struggles high because there are stories in there. >> host: are you a good cook? >> guest: i am. people will be surprised that i even read and of little cooking school out of my home.

i do love to cook. this is a great pitcher and a great family story is about tradition. on the left-hand side this picture is george romney romney, ms. romney's father the greatest guy in the world and he brought family together. we had to be there on the fourth of july and homemade vanilla ice cream is what we celebrated. he would shrink it to endow that is my son the three young guest waiting to take the spoonful before the freezer then on the right hand side is that picture of life has been to turning the same recipe with our grandchildren these boys children waiting to taste the ice cream. so the things that we love

to pass on with the tradition to bring families together. >> host: is a mitt romney a good cook? >> guest: he is fantastic and helps me on begs giving morning he is staffing the bird, saute the salary -- onions and celery and he is also one of the most responsible when the meal is over because anybody that was working in the kitchen he kicks out to clean up himself which is always a great thrill for anyone who's spent time preparing the food. he is fantastic in the kitchen. >> host: are these family photos that have never been published? >> guest: of what you have never seen before but one that makes me laugh everytime is we get together in the summer with the grandchildren.

you hear about the monday family olympics we had no water -- watermelon eating competition but they could not use their hands the you will notice they are all using there hands. it makes me laugh because it all started out with no hands but it got a competitive very quickly they would not eat much without their thinkers so the ones are really grabbing on. >> host: hopefully it was outside. did you put this together after the campaign? >> guest: afterwards. >> host: how did your schedule change? >> guest: you can imagine going 100 miles an hour all over the country hop being here and there with busloads of media and planeloads

every word you say everything you do to be documented with intense scrutiny and intense activity with a huge rally of political fund-raisers coming interviews you just go from the earliest morning until you crash at night and it goes on several years. been the next day it is done. it is over. that kind of energy you put out is such high-intensity to end so suddenly it is a huge adjustment in so many ways. we were disappointed with the loss but i kept feeling for months afterwards this is my sentiment coach, put me in. the game is over but that is how i felt. i am ready. i am sitting on the bench. put me in. that energy take so long

time to die and let back down. but now it has and i am back to normal life and a normal schedule and my routine is much slower. life is wonderful. i have been busy with the book and another part of my life with forces that i have been writing and competing in spending time with the grandchildren to enjoy our time together. we are writing and thinking about the country and what is a problem that "face the nation" politics is one way to answer the problems but i really believe part of the family that so many problems can be solved with good strong families and values and take care of each other. not just government for that answers problems in our life

but families as well. >> host: you said you are writing? so we can expect? to when we have been thinking and nothing specific but we have been doing a lot of broad thinking about the challenges that "face the nation" right now i know he is thinking about energy and how the energy needs will increase globally and the demand will be much bigger in the united states. he is a broad thinker he was a consultant for many years and was known as the turnaround guy. his ability and unique talent to think about big problems to look at the more

unique in its unusual ankle how to solve big problems. i don't thank you will hear the end of either one because he loved the country and we love our families and are concerned about the big picture. >> host: how incognito can you be? >> guest: not very much. i can do well with my hair and a ponytail and no makeup and i can hide better than nit. it is tough to go out in public everybody has a camera phone and everybody who wants to be on facebook. every 10 seconds if somebody wants to take a picture it is hard because obviously we don't have security it is just he and i. it is all right because most people are appreciative of

what we went to end most of them are fans. so it is a testament to what we have been through and how broadly we reach people but how many still recognize us. >> host: we talk a lot about romney but also your family group in michigan. what is this picture? >> my father built this cabin. i am from michigan and love campaigning very and i love the great lakes they taught me beyond how to cook but how to be strong and they adored me and they taught me how to work. . .

catching frogs and snakes and a girl from michigan. >> are you encouraging or would you encourage your sons to go into politics? >> i am a mother of two minds and very much the mother of two - because i recognize on the one hand that we honest we need deep and good people to run but i also love my children and the

world is very tough to put yourself in public because you become an instant target for criticism that is often not deserve to and quite abusive to be doubled to go -- you've got to really be prepared. i would say three of my five have no interest. i would never have to worry about it but i have two sons that i know sort of love the game. >> which ones? >> my oldest son, the tag and my number three, josh. i feel safe with tag because he was from massachusetts. my son joshua i can see him doing something like this, mind the decline. >> what is shadow mountain? >> they will be representing me in helping me to get this book out. they are the ones my son when the two and got this idea and they jumped on it and thought it was a fantastic idea and they

represent the book to me now and it's going to be -- it's going to be a big success. >> what is your favorite recipe? >> it might be his dinner. it's not that it's my favorite, it is mitt. the fact of bringing family together. this is a meat and potatoes cook book. it is meatloaf and that might be a surprise to people. they might think that he is the north carolina year than that but he's not, he's a meat and potatoes guy. and his sweet potatoes that he loves. so this is a basic cookbook for basic cooking. it's not a fancy cookbook. >> where was this picture taken? >> it was his birthday and we celebrated rather late last spring and was on his birthday i remember the first chance i had

to actually get the family together and to be off the trail for a day or to the first thing i did is get ready and make his favorite dinner. >> the family table is the name of the book and it comes out in the fall of 2013. thank you for being on book tv. >> thank you so much.

>> makes an interview with former secretary of state and george shultz. his book "issues on my mind stop what looks like weapons come energy development and the war on drugs. from the hoover institute at stanford university, this is just under an hour to the estimate george shultz, what are you doing for a living these days? >> i tried to live up to my four great-grandchildren who to me to represent the future. i look at them and i say to myself what can i do to make the world better for these kids? >> as a distinguished fellow at the hoover institution what is it that you do? b's i work on the problem of

nuclear weapons and how to get better control of them and eventually eliminated them. i work on economic issues as a great economics group. i work on energy subjects. working a great deal on that. and i've also been trying to reflect a little bit about my experiences to see if there is anything that can be learned from them. i actually wrote a book to try to do that. >> and that book is called quote coo issues on my mind." secretary, what is the mean age you on your mind today? >> the main issue is that the world that the united states had a great deal to do with constructing after world war ii in effect reconstructed a security and economics commons that served us and serve everybody well. that is being torn apart right

now. and we have to understand what is happening. and we have to be ready to interact in a constructive way to build a more coherent world. so, i reflect on my experiences in the book that you held up on the different ways in which we need to go about it. we have some real opportunities in front of us. we have some issues. a lot of the things i propose to talk about are so controversial no one even wants to hear you talk about them, but anyway i do, so i enjoy that. >> how would you say the world is security lies today as opposed to when you were secretary of state in 1980's? >> very different. in the 1980's when i was secretary of state, we had the main threat of the soviet union and their nuclear arsenal and

our nuclear arsenal and how you contain that and remember from those days. the nuclear cloud was always somewhere. well, i think that has diminished a great deal because of russia it's still there. but that is more of a greeter disbursement of nuclear weapons of the proliferation of them. sometimes in the hands that are not the terrible -- detourable. and in other ways, the world is falling apart and this is very disturbing i think it >> rogue state, iran, potential nuclear power. how should it be handled? >> weld we have said it is unacceptable. i remember -- and i used this in my book when i was booed in the

u.s. marine corps. you join the marines and think that you have you haven't. it's only a few surviving boot camp that you are a marine. i remember the day that the sergeant handed me my rifle. he said take good care of this. it is your best friend. and i remember one thing, never point this rifle at anybody unless you are willing to pull the trigger. no empty threats. i told that story to president ronald reagan on one occasion and he loved it because we said we are going to be very careful with what we say. so, people will realize when we say something it's going to have a consequence, it does. and if it's not going to have a consequence, we don't say it. so, what the administration has in mind, i don't know. but they basically said that it's unacceptable for iran to get nuclear weapons, the option

is not i think secretary perry testified it's not -- the object is prevention. so i don't know what their strategy is for preventing, but it better have some toughness or it's not going to succeed. >> secretary shultz, what about the superpowers that have nuclear weapons, russia, the u.s., china cracks should there be more talks and less weapons, should they be dismantled? >> one very positive thing has taken place, a lot of positive things, but one was about three years ago president obama convened a meeting in washington. 40 heads of government came. and the object was to see how everybody involved can do a better job of controlling fissile material. fissile material was what it takes to make a bomb.

that is a hard parts getting the fiscal material. in the was followed up with another one. so i gather there is another one scheduled in amsterdam. more and more heads of government are involved in that. and trying to really get a hold of that problem. i think that is a constructive thing. and a recent thing that i've written along with people what i've been working on this, henry kissinger said bill perry and sam nunn would say let that more fun to kind of a more global enterprise and get these more constructive states together to keep working on these different kind of things that need to be done. there are some between us and russia that need to be done that there are other things, too. >> what about when it comes to the states in the adc were part of the administration that

strategically bombed libya. what about bombing iran and its nuclear facility? >> well, just how you would go about that and how difficult it is and how successful you can be. i am no part of any intelligence accept to say that it is probably difficult. the israelis are more worried about it than anybody because you ran every other day to eliminate israel, like it out and the the nuclear and on the anti-ballistic missile they could do it. so, adding that we have learned from reading mine, when somebody like that makes a statement, you should take it seriously and believe them. so, i think we have to think about forceful means pitted but i am not in an informed enough position to say more than that.

>> in asia use on my mind you write when it comes to terrorism we in this country must think hard about the moral stakes involved if we truly believe in our space values and our way of life, we must be willing to defend them. passive measures are unlikely to suffice. it means of more active defense and deterrence must be considered and given the necessary political support. >> welcome you say if you have a law enforcement approach, you say okay. a terrorist act happened. then we find out who did it and we try them in the u.s. court and if we make him guilty there are endless appeals and they go to jail. well, what does that accomplish? a certain deterrence but in the meantime a terrorist act has taken place and a terrorist act like 9/11 can kill a lot of people. so if you know something is coming at you why not stop it

from happening, in other words, prevention. and i think -- when i first said that in 1984 it was very controversial. but after line 11, people said of course. we should be trying to stop that from happening so i think this doctrine of trying to prevent things is very important. and it's become common and we did a great deal in this country. i think there's been lots of terrorist acts that didn't happen because we found out about them through intelligence and prevented them. >> we are talking with former secretary of state, former secretary of labor, former secretary of the treasury george shultz about his new book, "issues on my mind." mr. secretary, was the favorite job that you ever have? >> you say to the job and why is something you have to do in order to get money.

if you say that, i never had a job in my life. i've always done things that i have found rewording and interesting. if i wound up doing something it wasn't like i would find something else to do. but in the government is a great honor and privilege to serve. and i had a succession of jobs. all of them have their tough moments that all of them were rewarding starting with my two and a half years overseas in the united states marine corps in world war ii. and there i was fighting for my country and in the and we were victorious. i didn't have much to do with it but i was one person out there. i served in the eisenhower administration council of economic advisers. it is a great privilege. i remember going down and my office was an the big office building right next to the white

house. it used to be called the old state building. anyway, i had an office by the window that looked out on the south lawn of the white house. i remember my father who died not too long after that, but he came and i took him to my office and saw this view me and he said you have arrived. so it was great to look there. when you were working in the white house complex, you have a view of the whole government. and i learned about how you put the statistics together that we talk about all the time. so that was a great experience. it was the secretary of labor i knew the subject matter very well and i knew the department will because i had done some things in both the kennedy and the johnson administration and gave me that exposure. but i didn't know anything about washington and politics and the press and all but. so i had a good base of

knowledge of which to learn about these things. and i was fortunate in persuading a man "the new york times" for decades. everybody knew his subject and he said he would sign on but he had conditions. he said if i'm going to be the spokesman, i have to know what's going on. i have to be able to look at the enemy putative i'm blind sided, then i'm over. i said of course. you can go anywhere you want. anyone would be glad to have you there. what else? >> he said don't lie.

i said i don't. you'd be surprised what happens to people. they come down here. they get under pressure. maybe they don't lie, but the mislead. misleading is as bad as lining. some got to be street. i said okay. what else? he said never have a press conference unless you have some news. i said don't reporters kind of like to look around and he said you don't understand. reporters are trying to make a living. the way you make a living is you get a news story with your name on it and get on the front page of your paper. you call a news conference and the reporter thinks this is my story. he comes and you don't have any news, what is he going to do? he's going to start asking questions to try to make you say something stupid and that is the news. succumbing and he had a whole bunch of things like that. so i learned a lot about the

press from joe and while sometimes people right things you don't like on the whole, if you have a constructive attitude and help them get the facts straight, you are going to be much better off. then there was a guy named bryce harlow and the white house that was the political counselor and the relations guy. he took me on his swing to a certain extent and he had rules. he said never made a promise unless you can deliver on it. if it turns out it's hard. because people only deal with you if they trust you. they trust you if you do when you say you are going to do. and his word was trust is the

claim of the realm. so i've always tried to remember that. and the labor department i have some big -- my first big battle in the congress and i learned something about that you get so it was a great learning thing. then i went from there to be the director of the budget and then you have it all well in front of you. so there was great. then i became secretary of the treasury. was at a time that we redid the international monetary system. so lots of dealings with people all over the world. and i learned a lot about how to do something internationally so there was a great experience for me. i enjoyed people. some are still good friends today. but of course, when i was the secretary of state, the tectonic plates of the world changed. when ronald reagan and i took

office, the cold war was as close as it could get. when we left it was all over but the shouting abuse of the was a huge thing to be involved in and to watch it unfold. >> mr. secretary, in your book issues on my mind, you have some rules for leadership and a couple of those who have already expound upon. but the first rule is to be a participant. >> yes. well, that is what democracy is all about putative early on, when i was working with them in the primary, ronald reagan gave me at tie and on it it says democracy is not a spectator sport. so, be proud of it. and be part of the politics but be willing to serve and be a participant. >> rule number five, competence is the name of the game in

leadership. >> it is a great start to be competent. if you are not competent you are going to get in big trouble. i have a tough experience with that though. i told you when i went to washington as the secretary of labor i was kind of an innocent in politics and i had a bunch of political appointed spots to fill. and i realized that you are trained to work with a diverse constituency. i said i need the best management guide in this industrial labour relations field there is. everybody told me it was this guy named jim hudson. they said we have to have a real labor guy who negotiates and contract and sells the rank and file. so we found this guy to do that.

he really knows manpower training. we have to get somebody that has worked in the area of how to deal with discrimination in the workplace. anyway, i got a lot of these people lined up and the president-elect nixon felt that it would show progress in his administration. so he said why don't you bring them to the hotel which was at the headquarters and we will have a little meeting to take them down. so we have a meeting, it goes well and i introduced the first one jim hudson. they asked him all kinds of questions and was pretty obvious that he was a real pro and he knew what he was doing. and someone in the back of the room held his hand and said mr. hudson, are you a democrat or a republican? i've never even asked him. when he said i am a democrat. so the next thing i know is army

webber is dazzling. the same guy holds his hand up and says i'm a democrat. and went like that. the last one was our nominee to be the head of the bureau of labor statistics and he was a statistician. arthur burns who's very close to president nixon i finally we've got a republican. the same day i asked him the question and he stands there like a cow chewing and he said i guess you'd have to say that i'm an independent. anyway, i get to my hotel room, the phone is ringing off the hook and the republicans on the senate labor committee are saying don't you know there was an election? i said look like we're these names in the white house and with a ranking republican jacob javits. he was in their favorite republican. but anyway, to give him credit

because of the guys did a terrific. they were confident people. and even some of the people who objected called me and said we like your guide to read jim hudson succeeded me as the secretive labor and a leader in japan. weber was irreparably and present at northwestern university and so on. so, if i had ruled all of these people out because they were registered democrats, i would have had the confidence to and i'm not saying -- i should have asked the question and done something about it. but anyway, if you have competent people are around you, you are going to do much better than if you don't. you're first job is to form your team and get people who are competent in those spots. >> that leads to rule number six in the book. finally, give the people on your

team responsibility and reward them for exercise. >> you want to be doubled to say here is what we are trying to achieve. this is our objective. and in your part this is what you are supposed to be doing. yes, you and i will work on it together but this is your responsibility to the i want to administer on the basis of no surprises that if something happens that i want to know about it right away to read if something happens if that is surprisingly good i would like to know that, too because we can learn from those things. but, you have to give people the leadership and objectives and hold them accountable. accountability is very important and in the economic system more governmental system. i'm fond of sports as a teacher of accountability.

and in my book i have some pictures of sports things. but american people love sports. and i think one of the reasons is the sense of accountability. there you are standing on the green, and you have the potter, there's the ball. you hit the ball and when the ball stops rolling, the result is unambiguous. the real accountability. that is a picture of golfing, the work president ronald reagan and me and he was the referee. it was -- ronald reagan and i had a new -- new year's eve and golf game every year and they would show up as our golfing team and was quite a day. they were fun. >> george shultz, and issues on my mind you write about your time as the treasury secretary.

why did you resign? >> well, the atmosphere became rather discouraging. even though i had a lot of really good experiences. one day i am sitting in my office and the director of internal revenue, the commissioner comes to see me to be the same with john walters. he said i just had a visit from john been, the president's counselor. and he hands me this list of 50 or so names of people to do a full field investigation of their tax returns. that is a very unpleasant process you might say. what do i do? i said you don't do it. what do i tell john? >> tel dan your report to me and if he has a problem, he's got me. what was interesting is later on in the tapes, i heard him discussing this and they basically said who does he think he is not doing what we want.

but they never had the nerve because if i resigned refusing to do something in the internal revenue service, that wouldn't be a very good story for them. but anyway, i inherited the administration of raising price controls, which i had opposed originally but it was not in my domain. incidentally, the two people running it for me were dom rumsfeld and cheney. anyway, we were in the process of trying to get rid of them and against my advice, president nixon reimposed them. i said it's your call you or the president but i think it's a mistake and you should give yourself a new secretary of treasury. so i resigned on the policy issues. it also illustrates something but i think in these jobs they

are very rewarding and you have a chance to deal with major things and often you can really make a difference. succumbing you tend to enjoy it. but you can't love the job too much. that is you have to be true to yourself. and i felt if i stayed under the circumstances i wouldn't be true to myself. so, you can't want the job too much to estimate mr. secretary, did you have a good relationship or what kind of relationship did you have with president nixon? >> we had a very good relationship with him. we did a lot of really constructive things together. one of the first things i did as

the secretary of labor was in philadelphia in the skilled construction trades there were no blacks at all coming yet they were around who were skilled. so we decided, and art fletcher that was working for me in this area, we should write this up and edify is something that became known as the philadelphia plan and tell them you have to have some hiring. you have to find people that are capable people but never the less get more people there and have an objective and have a timetable to get going so we were trying to manage this process. i always knew the secretary and all the sudden - controversy and i am called to testify in the

senate. somebody says you are in trying to impose the quarter system. i said i'm trying to replace one and get rid of one. the quota is zero. so we went back and forth and then there was a vote in the senate. we went to the gallery to watch, and the republican leader gave me the sheet printed in the book the vote for and against what it was a traumatic. i felt good about it because i was on the right side of the issue. incidentally one of the senators that voted with me was ted kennedy. we became good friends and respect each other and we had different views and we got along well. that was very helpful to me later when i was the secretary of state he was a good

colleague. >> are you still in touch with donald rumsfeld and with cheney? >> he was over in london and had the privilege of being with jim baker at the american delegation and he showed up and they are good friends. so we had a chance to see him. he's amazing. you are looking great. we had a heart replacement and now he's looking great and feeling great and strong and so catch up with these people. >> what about rumsfeld? >> they don't see a lot of him he has a new book coming out and they had a little back-and-forth. it is the unknown unknowns and what not.

it's a good book and interesting book. >> mr. secretary what was your relationship with margaret thatcher? >> i had a really good relationship with margaret. often we argued about things and she is a pretty fierce argue were. but she doesn't like lap dogs. people just say yes. so we would go at it and our underlining way of thinking about things was very similar. so in what was constructed by the ronald reagan and thatcher relationship and i was glad to go to her funeral because i had been close to her both before and after i was in office and after we still have at times when we were together a. so i was glad to have a chance to grow and pay my respects because i think it is a fair

statement that between margaret thatcher and ronald reagan and their leadership with they changed the world, the arc of history was changed. >> page 245 of issues on my mind you write that in my view the most striking trend now is something else. it's the groaning dynamism and cooperation of like-minded nations that share an important set of positive goals. >> that is what in the u.s. leadership we managed to do after world war ii. remember there were some really great statesman in the truman administration. these people look back and what do they see? face all two world wars. the first one settled in another vindictive terms and would lead

to the second. the second world war, 70 million people were killed and untold others displaced. they saw the great depression and protectionism and the currency manipulation helped to aggravate. they solve the holocaust and said to themselves what a crummy world. yeah you we are part of it whether we like it or not. so they set out to construct something better. when they saw the soviet union it was an aggressive force to deal with. they develop ideas like containment, institutional structures like nato, the brentonwood system in economics and the trading effort to construct a successful effort for the training set up and security efforts that were made. over a period of time each

successive administration made its contributions that was constructed of economic commons and that is what i am referring to but people contributed to it and benefited from. it was u.s. leadership without a doubt and i think it's fair to say that without u.s. leadership , constructive things are seldom handled. that doesn't mean people do what we want one. but it means when the u.s. is there with ideas and effective participant, it helps to get things moving. i have seen that on many occasions. that has been a great achievement. i can remember in the early 1980's i was in china and i had a meeting and they said now china is ready for the two

openings. i said what are the two openings and they said first of all the opening for the move but people within china and the opening within china. what's the second one? >> the second is the opening of china to the outside world. an unlucky there is a will that we call to open up to to get he understood that very well. so that's what i was referring to. and that is threat right now that this is being torn apart in many ways. it's changing. >> how should we view china? >> well it is a big country with a lot of talented people. it's had a remarkable economic renaissance and has a very large problems to contend with but it's a major in the relatively new in modern times anyway actor

on the scene working relationship and ability to talk through the problems with them and that's the way we need to go about it. >> do we have that ability now -- to we have that relationship now? >> i hope so but i'm not part of things. i've been out of office for 25 years. but i was part of bell group that henry kissinger organized that has meetings, some in china and some here just seven or eight of us and about a year ago we were in china and the man who's now the president, he gave a dinner for us and spent time and we had a lot of discussion. the next day we spent about an hour and half with the new premier. and i checked this out with henry kissinger and others in

the delegation. i said you know they are giving us a message that they want to have a collaborative relationship in the night states. that doesn't mean we have problems but it means we can talk about the problems and maybe we agree to disagree or find ways of dealing with them. i know when i was in office my first meeting with the chinese they said they liked the idea with my counterpart and they said you put on the table everything you want to talk about and i will put on the table everything i want to talk about. let stake in a gym that out of that and let's agree on will come to china once a year at least in you come to the u.s. once a year at least and probably the three or four meeting places we both come to a meeting of some kind and set

aside three hours or so just for us to work through this agenda. that served us well and identified some opportunities. we saw problems we couldn't deal with, but on whole wheat developed in the soviet union have the same where you could say to me i know you want to get here and you are trying to get it this way and we can't handle that. but if you come around like this media that could work to beat said that is the way that you can do things if you can develop a reasonably trusting relationship. and so i think that we will undoubtably have a disagreement with china.

right now the cyber area is very tense. but the way to do it is to sit down and talk to each other. be realistic and strong. have an agenda. don't go in without an agenda and be ready to engage. >> were you ever asked do you want to be secretary of the military of defense? >> that is a tough job. i was never asked to do that and i didn't think about it very much. but i know it's a very hard job. i guess if i had been offered i would have taken it. >> i consider myself to be in marine so i am still in the military forces pitted and as secretary of state, i had a lot of dealings with the military.

and i said to my counterpart on time i said according to the statute it consists of four people. the president, the vice president, the secretary of state and the secretary of defense to read and is in the statute each member is entitled to military advice. and they said i am here and i am willing to talk to you. i want to talk to those in uniform. so that happened and i found out that the then chairman of the trend chiefs liked to play golf and we'd been a member of the national golf club for the weigel and no call for turns down an invitation to go. so i invited him down for a weekend so we got to know each other. but it's important to have direct military advice when you are trying to conduct diplomacy or there is something happening.

>> george shultz, did you have a direct line when you are the secretary of state? >> we had a system where he and i had two private meetings and obviously whatever he wanted to talk about, there was first. and i have always brought an agenda to talk about. we have an understanding we would never make a decision in those meetings because they should be argued out in a broad context. but i would go and say look here's the problem. you can see on the horizon we don't know where it is going but here is the way we are thinking about coming here is where we are trying to do about it. what do you think and we go back and forth. and you know, he was a union leader at one point. he liked to talk of bargaining and negotiation. i had my experiences in the

labor arena so we would swap stories back and forth and i got to have a really good understanding of how he went about things and thought about things and so i felt that was important because i am representing him. people sometimes say to me what about your foreign policy. i don't have one. my job is to help him formulate it. he's the guy that got elected, not me. >> from what you have observed has the role of the secretary changed since you were there in the 80's? >> well, it looks to me as though they are in the same kind of relationships that i had with president nixon or jim maker had with george bush because i don't

know exactly the reason. but i salles for example the other day that the national security at pfizer went to moscow to meet with putin and started arranging that relationship. fifer the secretary of state i wouldn't tolerate that. so that's my job. and as the national security advisor staff person i remember when colin powell got the job as the secretary in the national security he understood and came around and said i am a member of your staff. obviously the president is my main guy but my job is to staff the council. so i think that is beginning to get out of kilter. in my book i have a lot to save the structure of government and how what is going i think in the wrong direction.

>> secretary, a couple more issues on your mind. number one, demographics. it's been a kind of servant of it and i see the demographics of the world have changed and continue to change to the developing countries basically have low fertility, rising longevity, they are getting to be older societies which has an impact on your outlook and your capabilities. they have a demographic catastrophe on their hands, very low fertility, longevity is managed only a little better than 60. they live 12 years longer than men, a lot of the younger talented people are immigrating. they have huge problems in the caucus to deal with and with china a lot of people on one

side hardly anybody on the other. so, but the demographics underlining this harbor devastating. china has the most interesting demographics because around 30 years ago fertility dropped like a stone. that meant for a quarter of a century, china has had a growing labour force and a declining number of people the labour force had to support quote a demographic dividend. now the courts in the population are moving at. the situation is about change. it is a big change.

meanwhile, you have the north africa and middle east countries. fertility is come down some but it's still very high and longevity isn't that big cities are very young society's one and some how many of them have gotten organized in such a way people don't have much to do with. nowadays the people in charge dhaka of the information our ability to organize. that is entirely changed so we see the arab awakening and was only a spark. there was one in to nisha all he wanted to do is start a little business selling fruits and vegetables and once the regulators want to get anwr.

what gives you dignity. you get some income from work and feel i deserve that. i get something and i got paid for it. i deserve it. so, i think in that turmoil we are seeing in the middle east and north africa you're not going to settle down until somehow people have something to do that is constructive. i know that there are many other kind of issues that are tearing away at it but that is a fundamental one. and it comes from -- you can see it when you take a look at the demography. >> you mentioned another issue that you talk about is technology and the use of technology. >> well, as i was saying, i don't think people quite appreciate the depth and the

meaning of the information and the communication. it's changed the process of governance. it's particularly hard on the autocratic governments that have been there awhile. but in a space government people are accustomed to paying attention to what people want. but nevertheless, its new. a shortened the distance between the people that are governing and the people that are being governed. it's changing because people anywhere can find out basic information. they can also communicate with each other on their cell phones and organize. so we are seeing that all of the place. and the question that has been prominent in the middle east but the russians have been struggling with, the chinese struggle with that but it's a phenomenon that's very much present.

>> final issue, domestic and international, the drug war. >> first of all, we have to be willing to discuss the issue. it can't be taboo. right? do you agree? are you willing to talk about it? >> i'm just listening. >> but for a long time, nobody would discuss it. we had the war on drugs. and i remember in the nixon administration, we were worried rightfully about the damage that the drugs do to an individual and to a society. so i am very much in the view that we need to figure out how to deal with that problem adequately. there was the idea, and pat moynihan who was counsel in the white house -- one of the things

to do would be to fix it so that drugs are just not here. so, he had a program of denial and they were writing up to camp david, and i have a presentation to make so i am studying my notes and pat is in a state of euphoria. that i rich man is in the state of euphoria and says to me don't you realize we just had the biggest drug bust in history? i said congratulations. >> yeah that was in the french commission. the was the problem of the time. so there was terrific. >> he pulled himself up and he says as long as there is a demand for drugs in this country, there will be a supply. i looked at him and i said there is hope for you but this effort to keep them out is a complete failure. the problem with drugs in the united states is relatively great compared with many other

like-minded countries. so, we ought to not least discuss this and see what other people are doing. i think there is a lot to be said for decriminalizing the youth and small-scale production. that is possession only for your own years. if you do that, you don't get thrown in jail if you go to the treatment center and try to get some help. you also keep the jails from being full of people that are caught smoking marijuana or something. they throw people in jail and all you do is make criminals out of them. that's where they learn it. amazingly even getting drugs in jail. so, we should take a different approach because it is so vitally important to try to persuade people not to take

these drugs because they are so bad for them. and it's bad for society. and you can do things. look a what we've done in this country with cigarettes. there are still people smoking them, but much less than before because we've had a fact based campaign, not just advertising, the campaign to persuade people not to smoke. i remember the days when they had the advertisement i would walk a mile for a camel. and the pretty girl says blow some of my way with smoke and all those kind of things. well now, if you see somebody smoking you think that there is something wrong with them. on the understanding or killing themselves? so, the whole atmosphere has changed. all kinds of things can be done beyond what we are doing. but we are spending gigantic amounts of money on this war to

be it one of the results of this huge violence and other countries. in mexico over the last five or six years some 56,000 people have been killed. that is more than the war in afghanistan and iraq. so, there are huge costs. >> mr. secretary -- >> we think it is a mexican problem. where does the money come from? the united states. where do the guns come from? the united states. so the drug lords often have better equipment and are better organized than the government. the government seems to be struggling with that and we can struggle with them but we need to say we have to do something about it. and one time in office when i was in office nancy reagan had her just say no program. she understood this. and she went to the united nations. she was invited to give a speech

on the subject and i went with her. and she said very directly that solutions to the problem start right here. we are doing something about people taking drugs. as a beautiful statement that she made. >> in your book you include a letter from nancy reagan to you. >> there's also a nice picture of us at the u.n. consulting. but any way she got a lot of pressure. she meant to say what she said but like her husband, if that's what she thought, that's what she's going to say. and she did and the impact of the world was just the opposite for what the drug bureaucracy father would be. that is people responded saying it is so refreshing to hear you understand that. we will work even harder with

you. >> are you still in touch with mrs. reagan? stand yes i talked to her the other day when i gave a report on the thatcher funeral. estimate two final questions. you mentioned earlier your father. >> i thought you said earlier you had two more. >> these are just two final questions in general. earlier in the interview to mention your father. who were your parents and where did you grow up? >> i was born in new york city, and my parents moved us to hinkle what new jersey which was a little community. my father worked there. my parents were just wonderful people. my father grew up with a farm in indiana and somehow got himself to the university of first member of his family ever to go to college. and then he was interested in history to it and he got a scholarship to columbia and got a ph.d. in history and wrote a book with charles beard famous

historian. then he was asked to start a school by the new york stock exchange trade people in the ways of the stock exchange. then he started the school called the new york stock exchange institute and developed it into quite a fine institution and people worked on saturday morning. now nobody works on saturday any more. but he would take me into york when i was a kid. and afterwards we would go to -- i know a little sandwich shop. i convinced them today. they are the best sandwiches. then we would go to a football game at columbia or if there was an interesting lecture or something we would go to and he would take me to all these things and he would play catch with me and possibly with a baseball or football. he was wonderful to me and my mother was just a wonderful person. she said very high standards.

she wanted things to be just. she had great taste. so i was very fortunate to have loving, talented, wonderful parents. i've got pictures of them all around everywhere. >> here at the hoover institution at stanford university, another former secretary of state is located. your colleague, condoleezza rice. what would you think she ran for president? >> well, she is a very capable person. i haven't talked to her directly about that, but she understands the political process. whether she wants to indulge in that, i don't know. but she would be very appealing. >> did you ever run for office?

>> yes. when i lived in massachusetts, a little town in massachusetts, when i was on the faculty at mit, the school had only a few students per class for creating the regional schools, all the little towns would get together and i thought i was a good idea. ..

>> ibm very happy to see all of you. it is a wonderful evening to be in the city which i fortunately -- unfortunately through your disasters but i was thinking, looking looking at the little one for the children and a bigger one for adults that where water flows, so keen and peace.

so the history that is so vivid of me for the bombing of the imprisonment, that history is not full story and it is good to remember that that we make our way every day, every death is a different direction. some thinking about what i want to talk about and read about, i wanted to start by mentioning something that i find very disturbing which is our country, we you're not alone making war in the world but we're making some big ones. to bomb and shoot these people over a

generation, star of them, and other places in the world. and then someone who says we will start a slow withdrawal thinking the war's over but as i was reading or i heard this somewhere, just something to meditate about but the children in el salvador where the war went on for ever and will never and really, the children have been left so impoverished that they can no longer eat without having pain in their teeth because what has the war and left them with? to take forever. this is what war does. not just stop shooting people and bobbing their

houses and destroying everything. so i wanted to start there and also to go on to these new books. i have been trying for the last 20-something years to stop writing books. [laughter] i totally dead it. and sometimes i will feel very free when i remember finishing the color purple 30 years ago. and just be being with joy. i am done. and i have had that scenario myself many times thinking i am done. but this book i will read first from "the cushion in the road" to read how that

came about and how did they think the life that i lead when i am not on the road, it is so quiet. it is so meditated if a and it is so happy. one of the ironies is that i love quiet so much i fell in love with a person who plays the trumpet. [laughter] life is always is telling us who do you think is in charge? to its emlyn dream that you imagine you are in charge? [laughter] this is a very short book "the cushion in the road." i learn much from the thought.

it is a comfort to me since i read my first poem sitting quietly, doing nothing, as spring comes the grass grows by itself. to me, this is a perfect thought. but also with that tradition the thought the wanderers and poem is in the road in approves very true in my own life much to my surprise because i am such a homebody. i love to be at home with my friends come animals, the sunrise, the sun set it is all glorious to me. a and so when i turned 60 i was prepared to give all of myself to sit on the

question in my meditation room a ended never get up. [laughter] but it so happens that i was in south korea that year. a and they agreed with me. in fact, in that culture it is understood -- understood when we turned 60 we become a eggy it sounds like eggy but perhaps that is not how they spell it. we are free to become once again like a child. we are to rid ourselves of our carriers, especially those we have collected in the world to return in word to a life of ease in and leisure and joint. i loved hearing this. was an affirmation of a feeling i was already beginning to have. the netherworld. first is the

grandchild, where is the question? so i began to prepare myself to withdraw from the world. there i sat finally on a cushion in mexico with the splendid view of a stone fountain with a softly falling water as a backdrop to what i thought would be the final 20 years of my life. i'd like my great great great great in a mother who lived to the age of 125 i thought 80 would be doing well. then a miracle seemed to be happening. america, america was about to elect a person of color as its president. what? might cushion shifted when you leave it in unsuspected guest left to the radio on in leather and bombs were

falling on the people of gossip. one mother lost five of her daughter's. didn't i have a daughter? what i have wanted to lose her in this way? was indicted mother? even if reportedly imperfect? mike issue and began to wobble. i have friends who became eggy and managed to stay eggy. i ended them. for me the years following way 60th birthday seem to be about teaching you something else. i could become like a child again and enjoy all the pleasures of wonder of a childhood experiences but i would have to attempt to maintain this joy in the face of the actual world as opposed to the meditated universe i had created with

the column and ever flowing fountain. my travels to take me to the celebrations of washington d.c. where rock obama would be inaugurated and carry me the morning after too far away burma, myanmar that would lead to much rating the and then take me to thailand for a lovely trip up the with her right to waive happily to those people who wouldn't waive and then they would take me to gaza. and the west bank, india and the amazing places. pat truck, jordan, who knew? i would find myself raising a nation of chickens of the holy people. my cushion, because of my

attention to the deep suffering in the world, as sometimes seemed far away. it was the condition that i do not like and do not recommend but then in the dream it came to be. a long asphalts highway like the one that passed by my grandparents place where i've lived with them as an aide and a nine year-old. my grandfather and i would sit on the porch in the georgia he can't count the cars as they met by. he would choose the red car and i would choose the blue or black. it was a sitting of a cushion for the both of us. hours to go by in we were content. perhaps that is why the

solution was available. there in the middle of the long perfectly straight highway and i had known and loved as a child with premeditation cushion directly on the yellow line right in the middle of the road. so what do i believe? that i was born to wonder in that was born jews sit. to love home with the almost unbearable affection but to be llord out into the world to see how it is doing in my beloved larger home and paradise. of. [applause]

half his in my kitchen for many years i have been supported by all the photographs and saying this and poetry of people in recently i decided to take them than it had been there so long the paper was turning yellow but the there is a quotation from walt whitman i will read it to you because one of the things that is so lovely about having a history and a place to have poets' who have gone before to leave these wonderful guides to us. and you probably know this, this is what you shall do, above the earth and the sun and the animals. despise riches. there i disagree. [laughter]

i'd think it should be shared riches. stand up for this stupid and crazy. i like that part. really? this will test us off. [laughter] but it has to be done and you have to stand up for them and to them. [laughter] day go your income and the labor to others and to yourself. you are deserving. hate tyrants. really. you know, , the tyrants, i don't know if hating them will change them and has not seem to work period well. in any way, you can he tierney. items concerning guide you

have to agree looking deeply in peering closely crustaceans and indulgence to whether people that is also a tall order especially in hot weather. [laughter] patients and indulgence. take off your hat to nothing known or unknown to any man or number of men go free with powerful and uneducated people with the young and mothers of family cover read these leaves in the open in your of youur of your life to reexamine all you have been told through school or church cover read it.

whichever insults your soul, they dismiss it. and tear flesh shall be a great plan. halleluja. [applause] >> ending the age of waste waste, and now in this time we always wonder what is the most crucial thing to do? to be the most crucial thing is we gave our health. ended to help other people the gave theirs if we are a healthy people we are so much less gullible a and clear headed and the way.

-- awake. we were visiting a friend last night and poured duke there dog was sleeping, and not meditating on his cushion. [laughter] in thin duke's people put him on a diet in the entire time he was bouncing all over the place, a bright, happy, and that is the way it can be with us. the most important the humidity can do is tie to relieve this is true that we are in danger of not believing in ourselves because we have lost so much of what was good and what we

thought was possible a and right. but we keep it grow and change in rouse ourselves to exhibit gratitude. that is what makes us wealthy. by respecting her limits to what we have ever known. to the only planet mother we have ever known. but until it was a teenager i had no experience of waste. growing up on a farm in middle georgia everything we grew or bill to be used in tel it was used up there was no extra. and no such thing as litter. my parents were puzzled when they perceived the beginning

with age of waste. neither of them knew what to do with styrofoam containers or plastic cups. they thought idem so wondrously made lightweight he and sturdy should be apprised. they carefully washed and reused them until the replacement begin to appear at an alarming rate. [laughter] for a long time don't you just love them? [laughter] for a longtime case negative he's in the kitchen petri believing at some point they would come in handy. [laughter]

i just want to hug them. they were so why is. perhaps you to use it to carry to picnics or share food if somebody wanted to take the food home. really? that makes so much sense. how could they know this plastic would end up in the ocean killing turtles, dolphins and whales and fish in presenting major health challenges to humans all because it was used once and throw away? my parents heeded their home three small rooms and a kitchen was would they cut a year and carried themselves until they moved to town with everybody use teeters and in the chilly concrete room rates and then in the winter almost all the time.

my grandparents were even more frugal and lacked electricity in refrigeration. all food was eaten fresh team and a in charge for the winter and in summer watermelon was kept cool by placing them under the bet. a magical place to me as of a child for their brown to and dark green treasure. i recommend if you go by a water bill and especially the big reid once, if you have children, put them into the bet for the children to find. it is absolutely have been. [laughter] they had kerosene lamps that they would light until darkness fell until their late sixties they greasing the eight except sugar salt

coffee and citrus fruit that they bought in town a few times per year. but they also raise p.i.g.s. and chickens a in grew girtin's that need them some of the best fed people on earth they knew nothing of artificial fertilizer or monsanto no pesticides. but there was one major infestation with the tomatoes johnny a tomato worms that were carefully picked off the plant by he and. we chased each other around the yard with these worms as children huge ian scary like miniature green dragons the largest even have horns. i was not afraid of them. five sister was terrified of. [laughter] fast which was unfortunate for her. [laughter] but what i have learned to

it is necessary to be rich or well off but what is the central -- essentials is to have enough. much energy might go into educating human beings what the message is that as a culture we in america have rarely seen to know am part of the ignorance is because we inherited that consumer driven capitalist system and pays no attention to the indigenous cultures already here like my parents and grandparents coming extremely careful not to waste anything. my parents and grandparents had health care that included a yearly visit to the dentist in the school well equipped with teachers and materials and work that provided a decent wage we

would have been content with the happiness that went beyond a peaceful existence we managed to make out of what we did have. will we need to endure another war on american soil? of those that have been fought it is the civil war the indian war against the indigenous population her largely forgotten but are we to have another war on our soil? god forbid yet i think of a story a friend of mine told about being in nicaragua against the cdc says. you will recall the united states would back the contract and she said one day she watched a member of the government sits down to pick up a paper clip that

had dropped down onto the floor. they were so impoverished by the board that nobody considered office supplies if she could tell by his look that the paper clip was cherished. it was the most moving moments in her time there. this may be how would it is for us. so wasteful and so much for so long but maybe not. mr. thomas prophecy of all-out nuclear war during this very period notwithstanding. perhaps we can learn how to change our course in a way that all of earth's resources will not be consumed with work or which is perhaps a plea in the unintelligent and unproductive activity that humans are in cajun.

of course, there are others the general raised of earth resources constituting a major and unwinnable war not only against our common mother but against ourselves. the planet is fed up and tired of us. my friend bill from american indian ancestry used to come to my house for speaking up for mother earth to and would collapse in the bet in my guest studio also bringing tobacco in honor of her to save mother earth is a retired, is so wary ian disrespected in average steichen heard the bare her suffering but sometimes he would weep and always felt as if he was talking about his very best friend.

he was he died talking in seeing in drumming to her to pray on the top of a mesa where they restrict mining for gold or pristine rivers soon to be polluted from every conceivable contamination from delaying or mining or fracking or other forms of ecological rate bid always thinking of her old ways in prayerful of life meant. he did not forget this for a moment. we must all go to load her -- to know her that she is alive in the meeting affection and care and love. who were we to give her nothing but grief? massive amounts of faith will be required that we can

change enough to be worthy of her caring for us all love these millions of years. caring for us. there is comfort knowing that doing all that we can if we must go down we will go down together with heartfelt alignment birth mother and her see children children, hand-in-hand doing in our best to save each other from a fate that unfortunately for us humans is all too easily without a drastic change of course, foreseen. and it is already in some many parts of the world apparent. [applause]

i ended stand i don't have all the time in the world but i want to read a poem if i can find it. called what do i get for getting old. [laughter] i really like this poem because you can plug it anywhere but the whole idea of being afraid of getting old even though you don't want to die is so bizarre. would you rather just die and not get old? [laughter] what do i get for getting

old? and pitcher story for the curious. how much more time? in that case i will read some short ones. okay wait. okay okay. thank you. a picture story for the curious. you supply the pictures. i get to meditate in the chair. [laughter] how many meditate out there? because you know, you said on a cushion and cross your legs in you have to be correct? when your old you can do it in a chair. [laughter] i can meditate in a chair or

against the wall with my leg is stretched out. bad news in the meditation center or even in bet. they really don't think that is good i can see half of what i am looking man and this changes everything i can dance by people the day jordan never is an unfit in their third drop to me if i can spend time with myself whenever i want per bike and ride a bicycle with tall handlebars and my posture improves i could give up learning to fail. [laughter] i get to know i will never speak german. [laughter] i can snuggle all morning with my choice to go into the hours by how many times we get up to pee. [laughter] i get to spend time with

myself whenever i want to. i can eat chocolate with my salad or even as a first course. i get to forget. i get to paint with colors and a mix myself and colors i have never seen before. i get to sleep with my dog and pray to never to outlive my cat. akin spend time with myself whenever i want. kim sleep under a hammock under the same stars where ever i am and spend time with myself whenever i wind. i can laugh that all the things i don't know and cannot find. [laughter] i can treat people like to remember as if i know them very well. [laughter] after all, how different can

they be? baguettes to grow might entire garden i get to spend time with myself whenever i want. i get to see in feel the suffering of the whole world and take a nap when i feel like it any way. i get to spend time with myself whenever i one and i get to feel more loved and i never thought existed. everything is made of the stuff. i feel this especially for you although i may not remember which you, you are. how cool as this? this still like to spend time with myself whenever i want to. and that is just a taste as the old people used to say in georgia when i was a child of what you get for getting old. reminding us and they witnessed a curiosity about

them that no matter the losses there is something fabulous going on at every stage of life something to let go of the four-door insurer something to get. [applause] the last one. this is about recognizing that sin is a part of the discipline that makes us who we become that there is no such thing as living without it. we might as well except that and work with it and by doing that we can grow all lot. this is called hope to use it only in the service of

waking up. hope never to leave it is your duty or right to harm another simply because he mistakenly believe they are not you. hope to understand suffering with the hardest and sign a even in school but could not. hope to be imperfect in all the ways the key to growing. hope never to see another not even a blade of grass that is beyond your jury. hope not to be a stop on the very day love shows up in work clothes. [laughter] hope to see your own skin in

the wood grains of your house. hope to talk to trees until them everything and hope that the end to enter the unknown knowing yourself. and for getting yourself also. hope to be consumed comment to disappear into your own love. hoped to know where you are, paradise if nobody else does. hope with every failure is an arrow pointing to light in an. -- in late tonight. hope to sid only in the service. of waking up and cheese five

-- of waking up. [applause] [cheers and applause] >> hello. we have about 10 or 15 minutes to insert question is if you have a question please raise your hand and we'll get a microphone to you. there is a gentleman in the back on the left with his hand up. >> i recently read a book

one day in december. you wrote the introduction for the book. it is a biography of of sanchez and in reading the book i thought the biography has a special relevance especially for women in this country and briefly just to say that it shows that it is possible for women to become leaders in the struggle to guarantee that everyone has top-quality medical care as well as education as well as an attempt to eliminate poverty. so could you give a few words about why you decided to write the introduction to

this book? >> i would be happy. t2 was the equal partner of fidel castro to form the cuban revolution but nobody in this country are the heard of her. i get a lot of the news groups of people asking me to read them, to absorb their right introductions and i picked this up and they started reading. is 400 pages in it is so astonishing that the life of this will then who made the revolution with fidel and che and the people if you are familiar with. her father was a doctor and i think because he was a doctor she got to see what was going on to the people

in her country. cuba at that time had a lot as pedophilia broaden the, the people who you did it were brought in from the united states are members of the mob then they would come to cuba and the ample and avail themselves of prostitutes in very young children in one of these children was a child that he to have known because of her doctor father and she was raped to death and it was a turning point for her in many of the women with all the revolutionary women who took up arms in. the instigators of the cuban revolution to get rid of the leader.

when it is just amazing. the author had access to the archives and all the letters between selia and fidel for instance it is such an eye opening reid because you understand we know so many of the reasons we were kept in the dark about cuba that one of the big things we had no idea about was just how strong the women's component was in that revolution. because we were just shown the min that had to be eradicated in tea to herself lived to be 60 in she died of lung cancer. she was a terrible smoker. her father was a smoker in died of lung cancer but she

was always so stressed because she tried to protect the dow they tried to assassinate him 648 times. in the course of all those attempts, they are amazing people that fidel and selia adopted children of the people who were killed in the revolution and raise them even though half the time they were trying to find a place to hide him so whoever was looking could not find him. one of the other fascinating aspects was a revolutionary partnership. they never married. in a given society at that time but culturally with things of matrimony you are

to be married. people would ask when you getting married? eventually fidel got around to feel the heat and said you want to get married? and she did -- she did this twice and she said no and she said every time he proposed marriage she would build another room on the house and she did this from the very beginning. she was the person who major up in the mountains he was comfortable and he had his own room and she had her space. so i read through the 400 pages to do was so astonishing i went right back to the beginning to read it a second time

because this is out information is kept from us. they put up the embargo to tell you that the people evil and paul paul bloch. but you just have to find out for yourself. i have been there four times and i always have been a wonderful time even with no food or gas, nothing. but i still felt these were great people in a very happy for them they had so many people in leadership that truly love them. when do we will have somebody who truly loves us. [applause] >> hello. how were you?

i want to thank you for writing everything, your short story ideas in the recovery community i teach parents about valuing our everyday things and how they can say no to their children but still in the life affirming way and i want to thank you for that. >> you're welcome. [applause] >> thank you very much. for your wonderful poem and inspiration. i love to hear the lessons that you teach such as the one about letting go of

recent. that has been a lesson that i really need to learn. i will limit that to just say that i highly recommend it. that's all. >> thing khieu. [applause] >> we have time for one more question or testimony. [laughter] >> thank you for the paper clip will manage. i doubt i will never look get a paper clip again the same way. thinks you're a. >> thank you for coming. [applause]

♪ thank-you very much. nice to see you all. she did not say i have lived one-third of the history of our country. [applause] which tells you what a young country it is.

[laughter] zero or what an old man i am. i am so pleased to be here and the queue for the moderately good introduction. all the members of the president's council thank you for supporting this important institution. we appreciated. i of a supporter result. i have been traveling around talk about this book "rumsfeld's rules" and i might just take a few minutes i am told that you are ready to ask some questions and i'll answer the question then know the answers to and i will respond to the others. [laughter] but before i do a few words words, i spent four years ray t. my memo are and as i

did that i kept thinking about "rumsfeld's rules" and decided i should do that but it started because the mother was a schoolteacher. i would ask her what the word meant in she would tell me to look it up and write it down when i started to carry three by five cards and i still do to this day and she said at the end of the week remind them -- read them and remind yourself what they mean in and i would write down things i thought were important. and i did that as a young man as a boy scout and a navy pilot in congress and then i resigned in 1969 in my fourth term and went into the nixon cabinet and served in the office of economic opportunity it is my first

executive job and they started to make notes about that. then when president ford came he called me back as an ambassador to nato and i came back the number is white house chief of staff and i mentioned one of the rules and he said what is that? he had never served in the executive position and i told him i keep those rules. i don't know what i said that maybe something like this negative did not say the white house is calling. buildings can't call. he said let me see this. i have it taped in he said the unusual circular right -- circulate that to the senior staff. i did it was called "rumsfeld's rules" and had the life of its own and

people have been reading it for a quarter of this century. but i decided to write a book about the rules. and that is now what has just come out last tuesday. i tried to write it in a way that it is interesting to college graduates starting at the beginning to the people in the middle and a chapter about meetings and a chapter on rassling because the wrestle for tenures. but that is relearn the relationship between effort and results and it is terribly important. also did try to put yourself in the other fellows shoes and that is useful if negotiations. ivan spent time in business and learn rules like a's

hire a's and b's hire c's. is true. one time my daughter said what you think i should do when i graduate college? what company should i go to our what business? and city were asking all the wrong questions is should be who are you going to work around? find somebody sparkly because you will find the people around them will be sparkly. doesn't matter what you do. the first name that came to my mind one was a teacher that i happen to know and was an interesting fellow but is long since gone and another was william buckley because he was so intelligent. but i proceeded to make other chapters but i thought

about the fact american business does not defend the capitalist system very well and i saw the occupy wells to -- will street and people sleeping in the parks in listening to the national campaign i heard people talking about government growing jobs. [laughter] it reminded me of one of my rules that washington d.c. is 60 square miles surrounded by reality. [laughter] [applause] the chapter in capitalism i wrote because i was worried that people in business for

some of very few people in government have never been in business it is hard they to know is leaving come back it is easy for a lawyer to go into government and come down but is hard for the business person a fair small businesses is there business than they have to be there an a large corporation, and then they are knocked off the ladder and they are out and it is hard to re-enter in as a result level with knitted have a confession is good for the soul but if you were in government you understate and it intellectually but it is one-dimensional you have no idea what delay does if you are in government if you are in business. you have no idea what uncertainty does. you don't feel the impact of

the regulations. i said in taxes every year and i always had a letter to whom it may concern here are my taxes. of what you to know i have no idea if they're accurate. [laughter] [applause] i went to college. i have average intelligence my wife went to colleges she will not even read them because she knows she doesn't understand it i just want you to know that is the case i paid money to the accounting did he helps me and i hope they're right if you have a question and give us a call. [laughter] the kid you imagine this country with a lousy tax system like that? it is inexcusable. how many people under state and their taxes? i don't see many hands. but i wrote the chapter

because i felt i was in business and i know a businessman has shareholders, customers, emp loyees and their all across the spectrum with ideas and party and their people are reluctant to challenge the government or criticize the government. they don't want to divide their stockholders or shareholders. they also worry about the irs. [laughter] if you don't understand your taxes you ought to worry. i worry. i know that i don't know. and if you are in the pharmaceutical business you have the fda with the

securities and exchange commission and to the extent someone criticizes the government, they worry that the effort may can be turned on. that is why the current irs is critical. american people don't want to feel that the government could be turned on them in a way that targets people. if you target one person you to target another. and i think that is why it is so central. now what i would like to do is have somebody, do you have microphones? i see you do. i would be happy to respond to questions and answer even answers some.

i will do my best. [laughter] major he and. i always hates the first question. [laughter] anyone who pops up like a jack of the box scares me to death. those lights are bright. make it a good one or i will embarrass you. [laughter] . .