is there anyone who wouldn't trade the american system question of them are perfect. ours is imperfect. we all pay our taxes. we don't leave and people want to come here so it's like i don't think there's anything i could teach the system. the system as far as i can tell is done a pretty good job. >> are you a citizen? >> i remain a canadian. i cannot give up my canadian roots. >> malcolm gladwell when does david and goliath at the state's? >> the beginning october, october 1 of this year. >> this is booktv on c-span2 previewing the outcome gladwell's newest book david and goliath, october 2013 is when it hits the bookstores. thanks for watching booktv. >> anita raghavan talks about the rise and fall of the galleon group one of the largest hedge funds in the world. an insider trading scandal brought down the ferments several high-profile businessmen

of -- this haut was hosted by the ages society in new york city. >> a little introduction to this wonderful friend of mine. anita raghavan. i first met her back in 1995. i was then coming to new york and looking around for stories to do and i decided to do a story on indian journalists who were rising in the mainstream is this press. at that time when i was interviewing all the people who had reached the top position someone said to me hey you know, there is this reporter you must meet at "the wall street journal." her name is anita raghavan and he described her as that bright kid who is going places. at that time i was reporting on the securities industry and

well, she did go places because i met her again just a couple of years ago when our paths crossed at forbes and i was london bureau chief. now this book i can assure you that anita is going to go further. anita, let's start off. you have been wanting to write about the whole southeast and diaspora and why did you choose this particular case and what was so compelling to tell the story at this point? >> you know i was fascinated by the fact that this sri lankan streetfighter had managed to seduce some of the best and brightest in the indian-american community. roger gupta of the three time champion of mckenzie and his protége who had gone to some of

the finest schools and india. the duke school in delhi and i wanted to know what was it that roche had managed to cast a spell over so many of india's finest. >> but don't you think that in a sense it was not the brightest moment for the community to be telling that story now? >> it wasn't but i think through the story you are able to tell the tale of the rise of the community because all the individuals that are involved in this case came post-1965 after u.s. immigration laws were relaxed and did fantastically well in a very short period of time. and so, you had a hold trajectory of the community, it's highs and its lows. >> the other thing i just wanted

to ask you and i have been meaning to ask you, the title. i just love the title. how did you hone in on that particular title? >> well if i can start by saying we have many titles before this title. the first title which was my favorite was sons of the morning and came from a hymn that i loved when i was in boarding school because it captured this idea of the indians, the indian-american league that got caught up in this case of the press -- not best and the brightest of india. i guess not everyone knew the hymn at the boarding school so that was quickly cast aside. and then we toyed with two kings, because raj and that wade was the king of wealth, you know and roger was a different sort of king, a king of thought.

he was a strategist from mckenzie. he had a certain ability about him and i don't want to give away any trade secrets but i think hachette was selling another book with two kings as the title, so it was cast aside. finally, we wanted to focus a bit on, on you know what was this book about, and i think we came to the idea, we came to the idea of "the billionaire's apprentice" because you know raj at some point in his career wanted to have what raj roger

radnet hat and it was the billions. >> i thought maybe you could read an excerpt from your book and that's the -- sets the stage iv a discussion. >> the passage i'm going to read from is from the beginning of the book and its raj gupta at the start of his life and it tells you a little bit about raj but it also tells you about his father who was a prominent -- who spent many many years in jail. at cousin told me when i was in calcutta interviewing in 2011 she said jail was like a house to him. so i'm going to start with that. ever since he was born he was likened to his father. he was as handsome as his father with the same striking features that gave those men a distinguished air since they belong to a secret world that went beyond wealth into actual

bloodline. in a society where skin color was the defining force a clear advantage that afforded them a natural superiority. both were known for their generosity of spirit and over the course of their lives would win them steadfast loyal followers. the similarities ended. unlike the sun he came of age in and occupy a country. seemingly to live in deference to an imperial power. as a descendent of one of india's oldest bloodlines he was ironically one of the chosen ones. he would be tapped and trained to deny his indianness and perform like the faux englishman all in the service of her majesty the majesty the king. while he would receive proper british education like the other steamed members of his family

gupta rejected intellectual servitude. on the morning of thursday november the fifth 1964 his eldest son and 15-year-old raj gupta addressed himself carefully. growing up in a close-knit indian family of four children, two girls and two boys the youngest born move to new delhi in the 1950s. he was accustomed to shouldering the responsibility. he and his older sister were always looking after their younger siblings by economic necessity his parents were two career couple long before was in vogue. upon his release from prison he took up journalism as a means to support himself and his family. his rep was very ties to free india helped him rise. after india's independence you is dispatched to start the standard.

the country's first prime minister called him by his first name. so trusted was gupta that they would often seek his counsel on how to deal with the press. born as a british subject through hard work and sacrifice he became the -- of modern india. he walked into the room of his uncles kolkata home to say farewell. shrouded with heaps of roses and marigolds and frequent jasmine his father lay in a coffin as was customary body was washed and purified water interest in a white robe. when he arrived at the hospital the previous day he was told his father was dead and as he stood at the entrance to his father's room he saw plastic bags still

attached probably with air from his father's last gasp. for a moment he thought the doctors had made a mistake. years of struggle or taken their toll. he was dead of kidney failure. in the months leading up to his father's death rajat accompanied his father on long walks and listening to stories. he learned his father had been intentionally exposed to tb in prison which ultimately caused the loss of one lung. these ragged star on his that came from his skin being split open over and over again after brutal interrogainterroga tion. in spite of it all the father he knew was kind and obliging to everyone. he would later recall, he never spoke ill of anybody and i would have thought he would have a lot of resentment built in to him but it wasn't true. this attitude was true of most of my father's generation. they were quite extraordinary in

terms of simple living and not thinking ill of other people. this morning in front of the house a crowd gathered. neighbors friends and admirers descended like pogroms on a journey. door-to-door doping men and their donkeys watched as the coffin was placed into a glass topped hers in front of the red brick house. in tribute the men mentioned their donkeys away from the mourners and solemnly cleared a path for the procession. at 9:00 a.m. for hers closely followed by cars carrying the immediate family departed. is the wrong approach the top of the street he could make that is shrine. after a stop at the offices of his father's employers he led the crowd to white town. on the other side of town the

former jailer raised to capture one final glance at the man. he ran to the crematorium and then to the funeral parlor to no avail. on his last -- he found the destinatidestinati on. clinching flowers he elbowed their crowd of friends family and admiring strangers and made his row along with the row of bodies stacked in line to be cremated. at last after pushing his way past his brother the former prison guard made it. his teenage son was completing the final death -- though in the silence that followed was able to place what was left of his lotus flowers at the feet of his fallen friend. rajat gupta lifted the stretcher into the orange flames of calcutta's electric crematorium. preying on the grain of hatred

remains in the ashes. i tried to atone for my sin. he hadn't been unwashed in his status of the premature of death of one of india's unsung heroes. he he heard a tender voice of rajat gupta besieging a higher power. who will show me the way of the world? >> anita, you know if this is an incredible amount of rich detail and really it makes your hair stand on end. how difficult was it researching and reporting this book? what sort of reactions were you getting? obviously the backdrop was this whole scandal. so you know you have been a very dogged reporter but writing a book of this scale and this depth, what was the experience like? >> it was very difficult because

so many members of the community who have helped me on many stories before were quite reluctant to speak about this story because in a way that caused such a -- cast such a poor light on the community and i think the diaspora didn't want to draw attention to it. so, i really had to tackle sources and convince them that while this was a shadow on the community, it also in a sense reflected the vibrancy of the community in the united states today. the fact that we have prosecutors and people who mete out justice as part of you know, part of american society is a

sign of strength. when my parents came and when i grew up here in the 70s, indians were confined to being doctors and engineers and college professors. today we have moviemakers. we have writers and of course prosecutors like sanjay. >> so much more diverse. >> that tried. >> was that a help or a hindrance? what did it ring into the story? >> i think it was an advantage in this sense that i took some of the dynamics of the story, the communal differences and the difference between sri lanka and an indian or a hindu married to a muslim and two midway if you read the book, midway in the

scandal started having marital problems and goes to another indian friends whom to pray. he is a hindu unlike a husband who is aimed muslim. so i think in understanding the cultural forces that played a big role in this story. it was also a challenge though because you know, one of the central protagonist of the book is of course rajat gupta and here was me, someone in the community writing a book that was going to shine a spotlight if you will on his missteps and how did you do that? how did you do that in a way that you know, doesn't open you

up to accusations of you know, just taking down a hero. i was cognizant of that as i wrote the book. >> a large part of the book, rajat gupta comes across as a really contrite figure and very principled. absolutely that position to the top ranks of mckinsey. what do you think is really gone into the subject? that is the question everyone wants to know. why? >> i think you know there were a number of factors. you have to remember that rajat had built up his career in the hinterlands in a way. he had been in chicago and late in life, in the late 90s he comes to new york and he is

thrust into this new world. it it's a bit of a bright lights big city phenomenon. henry kravitz and hank paulson and you know i think he in some way looked at his 30-year career as a mckinsey salary men and said what do i have to show for it? and it's very interesting, all of the dissent if you will happens after he steps down from the helm of mckinsey. he becomes closer to rajat -- raj some 11 in 2005 than in 2004 he gives this talk at columbia. i have watched a tape of the talk and you have the sense of a man really casting about trying to figure out what was he going to do. how was he going to achieve a

new high and i think he was really struggling. >> so, that success at mackenzie was not enough. so he was far more ambitious. but you know i read the book and was up nights reading it. it was so gripping. it's like a novel. this great shakespearean tragedy but when i read it i got the sense that there is an underlying sympathy that you have for rajat gupta that may not have been the case in your interpretation of raj rajaratnma and his colleague but an underlying huge wave of sympathy for him. is that correct? >> that is why wanted to redo the passage i did he cut his the

picture of rajat we all saw over the last several years was a very stoic man. you know, he was a student -- and dignified statesman. when i went to calcutta to interview members of his family and luckily i went there before he was indicted. they spoke to me very openly and i said you know was rajat affected at all by his father's death? cgart ever talked about it. his first roommate at mackenzie told me that he didn't even know that rajat was an orphan and his cousin said to me, of course he was. he was wandering around in it, toasts date you know. he had hopped on a train from new delhi and come to calcutta when he had found out that his father was very ill and the moment he learned he had died he

was -- >> when you meet, i mean you met almost 200 people in researching this book. [inaudible] >> i'm glad to know that. you are simply human. but you talk to 200 people and then you hear all these different voices, pros and cons. how do you sift through all that? how do you arrive at a true and fair picture that reflects reality? you must have gotten a lot of static as well. >> yeah, certainly, there were certainly a core of people at mackenzie who also did not like rajat who thought he had taken a firm in the wrong direction, who argued that you could've actually predicted what

happened. i felt the crime if you will was so, had gotten such press and rajat had suffered so much as a result of the crime. i think his lawyer at the end of the trial said this is a great tragedy of epic proportions. and so to me, what was more interesting about this story was who was the man? who was the human who ended up in this very bad place? >> yeah because despite him being so high-profile and written about extensively -- i remember meeting rajat and several different occasions interviewing him and giving visiting him at his home and i thought oh my god, this is it carried this is what success means. he had the golden life.

but there was always that sort of barrier. he always kept you know part of him which is very private. i think you were able to penetrate that through this book. >> right. >> did you find that difficult? were people from his past -- you match his secretary. you used every source. was that difficult for you? >> i think going to calcutta was very helpful in understanding rajat, because you know his cousins spoke very freely and they knew the young rajat who was rather a precocious child. i remember a story about how apparently on one family trip he

got on the roof of the car and he wouldn't climb down. they had to ply him with sweets before you would come down. and you got the sense of a boy who was quite alive and then suddenly when he was 16 he loses his parents and his whole persona changes. i think that struck me. going to this case now, moving fast-forward, do you think that the whole economic meltdown of 2008 sort of made this, caused this whole case to escalate the way it did? 's do you think that escalation was justified? >> a lot of south asians have

asked me, do you think indians were targeted you know in this case? why aren't they capturing the real culprits of the financial crisis? you know, prosecutors are probably not too different from the rest of us in the way they do their job. if there is an easy case to bring and this was an easy case to bring one to head wiretaps of raj rajaratnma receiving inside information from various players. if you have an easy case to bring you will bring an easy case and trying to prosecute the creators of the mortgage fraud

debacle is far harder. you know, you can probably bring cases against brokers who sold these shoddy mortgages but how do you tie these brokers to the heads of the investment banks? it's very difficult. there are too many layers to penetrate and i think it is the case with him. >> do you think the sentence was too harsh for both of them? >> you know, i don't want to comment on the sentence but, because i don't feel it's my role to but again, i think that a lot of people have remarked to me, don't you think rajat gupta got a severe sentence? i actually think rajat gupta was

very lucky getting the sentence he did. if he was before another judge i think he would have got many more years because in a way the crime he committed was far more serious than the one that raj rajaratnma committed. he was a board member. he had a fiduciary responsibility to keep the secrets of the board in the boardroom. >> in a sense in europe back home people in power have the sense and almost expect immunity and this kind of thing would not have happened. do you think that sense of entitlement is something that they bring here as well or are they well aware of the consequences? 's this very latent behavior that comes across in your book, i mean why did they believe they could get away with this? is it to do with that sort of

indian ethos of power giving you immunity? >> i am not sure it has anything to do with the indian ethos because one of rajat's bill clinton also thought he was untouchable. [laughter] so, you know i think it's one of the attendant attributes of power. you have a sense of invincibility and i think rajat had gotten to that point in life. he really thought he was not going to be affected by this and here i'm thinking about of lot of reporting i did in the early months when rajat first found out he had a problem and his reaction to finding this out was not to be really concerned, and i think it's because he didn't

think it would come to much. >> i was wondering if you could read a little bit you know, and give us a flavor of that time when he was really at the peak of his career and? >> okay. this as you said his plan rajat gupta is at the height of his power and just before actually he finds out he may have a problem. i won't get to that. it was tuesday november 24, 2009 and rajat gupta was headed to the white house for the first state dinner hosted by president barack obama and his wife michelle of the of the most glamorous couples and the kennedys. six years have passed since gupta set down in the three term global managing director for

consultinconsultin g giant kinsey. he sat on a handful of corporate lords goldman sachs proctor & gamble and american airlines to name a few. his wife anita had hoped his retirement from the the top job at mackenzie would slow him down but he was in the throes of building his own private equity company from scratch. jetting from continent to continent living out of a suitcase he was as an intent on being a game-changer in private equity and philanthropy as he had been during his storied career. ..

the ostensible province of the evening was honored the indian prime minister of the evening, the event serve as a barometer for how far and fast immigrant groups have risen. in one generation indian americans involved in outsiders to polish prayers in all facets of american society. if they want to make small talk in the security line with a fortune 500 ceo he could approach jeff immelt or someone else, the ceo of pepsico who was born and bred in channel. the reflected glow of the tv presenter he could chat with katie couric. hollywood was represented of the event. steven spielberg and the indian director of the $0.06 whose best were in attendance that night.

the indian success story in the united states, looked at all the indian and the legends of non-indian too. he had worked with many and served as a mentor to others. the principal deputy solicitor general was in high school for his indian parents to study medicine, he was advised to follow his dreams, his position in the justice department as one of the chief attorney representing the government before the supreme court was a testament to the heights to which indians had risen american society. as he looked around the room that night was a breathtaking to see the diversity and depth of talent, the u.s. ambassador to india, there were ceos and dr. brewer's, doctors, hotel owners and riders, aspiring office seekers and office holders, people who had grown up poor in india but now ceo of the company. you could feel how live the american dream was in that room.

there was never any question do the would be invited. he was one of the few indian america at walking vastly different world, philanthropy and india in america without losing a step. he was friends with all the indian business men accompanying dr. sing on his trip to the united states. she was close to the head of the powerful indian conglomerate reliance industries who viewed gupta as one of india's most treasured exports to reach the pinnacle of corporate and public life in the united states but never lost his affection for his homeland. often described as the david rockefeller of india, ran the gamut from land rover to hotels, all run by's taj {~ñ]mahal and worked on the dream of indian business school into reality. gupta's most important relationship which helped secure an invitation that evening was his friendship with the guest of honor dr. seeing.

one of the few indian executives in america who could get the indian prime minister on the phone on short notice despite mackenzie's prominence the two were not acquainted in nearly 90s when gupta was a rising star and sing, a little-known finance minister was the architect of economic reforms that dismantled the red tape and a share in an era of entrepreneur real freedom. when india prospered in the wake of sing's reforms mackenzie thrived advising indian companies on restructuring moves and played a pivotal role in building -- during this time as managing director mackenzie opened his groundbreaking knowledge center in new delhi hiring indian researchers many with nbas to analyze important trends like cellular phone penetration through mackenzie consultants. when the knowledge centered turned out to be a huge hit gupta went global with the idea preaching of sure american companies, eager to cut costs and pushed them to send more for

corporate research, legal transcription and financial analysis, clients were thrilled and in india he was a corporate rock star as recognizable in mumbai as jamie dimon is in new york. it was no small irony one of his dinner companion that the white house was labor leader and the stern, president of the company's second-largest union, stern whose organizations and the most money supporting obama sat between gupta and his wife in asia at a table sumptuously decorated with gold charger plates and purple or magenta arrangements of roses, sweet peas and green apple tablecloths. and coconut age, stern took the opportunity to nudge a key party some consider responsible for the fading prospects of the american worker. and from goldman, investors include public pension plans,

didn't have more regard for the worker. in softspoken but firm way gupta insisted they did, gave money to needy organizations. but something more radical was in mind, profits more broadly distributed to rank-and-file employees. overhearing the debate of gupta's treasury secretary tim geiger, it was heady company. it anyone talked of that when he was a little boy in calcutta that he would work at the long run mackenzie and be invited to the white house for dinner they might have had an easier time convincing him that he would walk on the moon. the heights he had a change would serve the events that followed all the more. >> there is your report to that particular time when the first came from goldman sacks from the

legal counsel and that is the reaction, rushing through the airport, doesn't releasing coin. and not that he has done something wrong. how do you square that final convention. >> i don't think even to this day, does something wrong. i swear that reaction, my take on the and general counsel. they are investigating you for tipping raj rajaratnam. i chalk his reaction of to an

arrogance of belief that if this is the problem is going to go away. i am too powerful to be touched, a bit like a bill clinton, entertaining some one in the oval office and thinking no one will hear of it. >> do you think you could read a couple of grafts from their? i think it is so sort of sets the stage for the book if you can locate that. thinking back on the book, that is important for the audience to understand where you started from and how it unravels. >> while i am finding the passage -- >> isn't it earlier in the book?

>> the earlier part is when great finds out it goes to lloyd blankfein. gupta's reaction to it is later. he is rushing through, you want the conversation and that is later. but if you would like to ask me something while i am finding that. >> you talked about casting combat light on the community, this whole case, does it call into question the indian success stories so to speak in the united states, is it going to be that much harder for the next generation to reach the heights? >> there was a magical journey

in the united states, they came to ever greater numbers starting in the 70s after the lyndon johnson reforms and in one generation they have gone on to become top lawyers in this country, today at the point where a federal appeals court judge in d.c. and as you can tell from the opening passage we have moviesmakers, politicians, and i do think the scandal involving some of the other indian luminaries will cast a

shadow on the community for a while. i remember when i started writing this book i was at a gala and a prominent indian american who heads the bank came up to me and said why this book? why this book? you could tell that on some level his own sense of security felt threatened by this even though he had nothing to do with it. >> you know, it is so ironic that you mentioned in your afterward in the book that there was a clear money trail and a link between him and raj rajaratnam where that was not the case, came to a conclusion

because they were business partners and in directly benefiting but clearly there was a payoff. he saying like a canary and got away with it. it seems totally unfair. right now that he is getting a second career back home so do you think -- rehabilitate himself back home quite easily? >> it is very likely he will. i was thinking recently, an american who had come back from india, it is interesting that while the press in the united states, overwhelmingly negative in india, something of a hero, somebody who has been, who has been mistreated by and unjust u.s. legal system so very easily

rehabilitate himself in india, no question. >> would you like to move on for a minute? >> this is 17 days after the theft at the white house that i read from. gupta is at philadelphia and about to board a plane and get a call from the general counsel of goldman sachs, and started off with two unusual disclosures, the conversation would be uncomfortable and could make goldman and gupta adversaries and arrange to have a colleague listen in on their conversation. typically they like to have one

on one conversations but since the topic was very sensitive it was important there be an extra set of years and hands to record what was said and monitor gupta's reaction. gupta had not registered this call would be different from any other he had had, said something else that should have put him on notice. representing the corporation and not you. palm when did make sure there was no doubt in gupta's mind this was not a privileged conversation presented by clients in confidentiality. at matter involved in to something much bigger, the contents of the conversation could be handed over to law enforcement offices. what can you tell me about raj rajaratnam and have you ever provided him information on what you do sticking to a script reworked out. gupta was taken aback by the question. not sure what palm was writing that. palm explain that goldman has come and been in contact with

raj rajaratnam and provided him with information about the firm. he did not fly off the handle or anything, he comported himself away palm and others had grown to expect. very calm late he denied he had never provided raj rajaratnam with confidential information about goldman and went on to explain why the charge was frustrating, told paul mandible mm-hmm lawyers that he and raj rajaratnam as one time had been business partners, but the two had had a falling out and were no longer close. their partnership stemmed from a solid investment that gupta had entry into many years back but it poured ten million into an investment vehicle to invest more money in the entity. raj rajaratnam had taken his money out but gupta's investments had gone to zero and hired accountants and lawyers and was planning to sue raj rajaratnam but he was invested. why would i help someone with i

had a dispute he asked rhetorically. >> thanks. a couple of questions before we open up to the floor. you kept one very interesting, juicy part of the story right at the end and i don't want to disclose that because that is something that looked -- anita raghavan has uncovered which is not common knowledge at all but i can disclose the title of the chapter, family secrets. and it is a pretty explosive secret which gives a different complexion to gupta's background and what ultimately happened so

i will not disclose the secret because we want you to buy the book, but -- >> want you to enjoy the book. to read the book. >> how did you ever come to this? >> this is common knowledge in calcutta and no one really wrote about it out of deference to gupta's father who was a journalist and of course i wasn't going to write about it based on the chatter i had at my disposal in london, the wonderful archives of the british library and i had a sense of when this incident happened and so i started looking through old newspapers and i found out that i found out

that this incident, this episode was in calcutta in the 1930s and newspapers ran daily stories about the incident and caused great shame to gupta's family because so many of them were steeped in education and academia. even though it was rumored by going to calcutta i interviewed a number of people who knew gupta's father, was very old and i learned of the circumstances of what really happened and i

felt was important to include this story because i think it was this burden, the family had carried for so many years and everybody was aware of it, people talked about it in hushed tones, saying he did something he should have never done, thinking about gupta's father and i think it cast a pall over raj rajaratnam and his siblings yet there was something very honorable in the dishonor. >> finally, anita raghavan, what is the key take away from this whole saga? some would say that indians are painted in a bad light but how do you view it?

what would you like reader's to understand this book has? >> i think it shows that we as a community have arrived in america. we are finally large enough in number, we are economically significant and as a result, we now have our own crime that will be prosecuted. there will be episodes like this from time to time, but if anything to me it is a celebration of community strength rather than weakness. >> i think we can open it up to the floor now and i am sure we will have lots of questions. please come forward. just briefly introduce yourself.

>> i am a physician from new york. both of you are from wall street, kind of insiders. >> i am from wall street. >> does the inside trading happen much more often than do people get caught or is this a relatively rare phenomenon? >> i need to -- >> there are ways and insider-trading is rampant. it probably happens less often today than it did in 2008-2009 but it is the common feature, the landscape of wall street and is is inevitable because you have so much informations alleging around and some of it is truly confidential information and some of it is

pure rumor. so yes, it is an endemic problem on wall street. >> right up front here in the first row please. >> thank you, thank you very much. most insightful, extraordinary and the timing of it, i have a question. will you be able to distribute the book into your country? >> yes, i think so. i think there are plans afoot. to do that at some point. we are the world's greatest democracy. we can do a lot of things in india. >> unless you are writing about a group they might find -- it has happened in the past. >> i think --

>> i am quite perplexed by the fact that you said people pick the low hanging fruit going after raj rajaratnam. there is not one shred of evidence presented who was responsible in spite of all the hours of why it is happening, there's not one shred of evidence. >> a lot of south asians focus on evidence as being a wiretap. this is the best case for wiretaps used to prosecute insider trading. insider-trading has been prosecuted for the last 20 years with circumstantial evidence and i don't know if you sat through the trial as i did but the circumstantial evidence was quite compelling. >> by that you mean the timing of the phone calls?

>> timing of the phone calls. >> the board meetings. >> on the day -- let's talk about goldman sachs -- warren buffett. >> circumstantial, beneficially contact, there being no link of any kind. >> that is not right. there was a case in 2008 against credit suisse banker, the u.s. attorney's office could not at trial showed that money had gone to the banker, there was no benefit, they were trying to allege there was the man in pakistan who may have gotten some money and he was kicking it back to the credit suisse banker but there was no actual display

of its. benefit is a very nebulous term in insider trading cases and it doesn't have to be money handed over in suitcases like marty siegel received in the ladys. it can be benefit as general business ties will lead to greater business. >> in fact there is a little description in the book about cases of cash, not as exciting as the previous one. can we just have -- >> a psychological question. financial failure, because of that, determined for the composite and all of this grief

came from there. >> raj rajaratnam was -- came from very humble roots and when his father came out of jail there was a document in the british library that i uncovered, he had -- i am doing this from memory, something like 10,000 in debt which is an enormous amount of money for that time and again in this talk that he gave that columbia, he said that his father was someone, if anyone asked for the shirt off his back he would give it to them and he said we were very lucky because had it not been for their mother who put aside some money, we would have been starving, we would have been on the street when our parents died. i do think she grew up at a very

young age learning the importance of security came from wealth. >> hello. i wanted to ask you, you have said that you believe that this scandal, these problems are going to reflect badly upon the south asian community. the economist magazine found your book to be extraordinarily well written. they said that analysis was in their minds, quote, nonsense. i wanted to know why you think the actions of two people will reflect badly upon three million in this country or 1 billion worldwide? that is one question and if you can if you can ask the question, why was it in your investigative journalism did you find why were

these two wiretapped? is not standard practice, wiretapped prosecuted based on wiretaps, wyatt where they wiretapped and i am sorry but lastly as the sri lanka and i must ask you, when you talk about the indian diaspora you include all south asians in your analysis or just people from india? >> let me answer questions, why were these two wiretapped? they were not the only two wiretapped. daniel was wiretapped, there were a number of others wiretapped. they even tried to to get not a wiretap but in summer of 2009 tried to get a former associate of stevie cohan to record him in incriminating conversations and he didn't take the bait.

to your question, my book, raj rajaratnam was obviously the person with a catalyst of you will, and i was focused on the indian diaspora, because these were individuals who were the best and brightest of the indian community. they went to the establishment schools, they've joined the establishment companies, they were different from raj rajaratnam on the fringe of wall street. he became a success through galleon and to your first question, when the adaptation of my book ran in the new york times i read a number of

comments and comments are more fascinating than the stories and it was stunning to me, there were a number of people whose said he essentially what do you expect? these are south asians. so i do think it will have an effect on the community. i am not saying, by the same token i did mention it will be confirmed for the federal appeals court in d.c.. it is not devastating but it will in the short term particularly on wall street. [inaudible] >> confirmed by the senate. >> do you think -- in another

context, back home so to speak, would raj rajaratnam -- would they be friends? >> i personally don't think they would have. they weren't friends outside of business. they didn't socialize together. raja did not go to raj rajaratnam's 50th birth day party. this was the marriage of mutual interest for a particular period of time. >> right back there.

>> a second circuit argument, you where there. >> for the -- >> so you where there for raja gupta but wrote a piece. okay. >> i had someone. >> let me ask very quickly, the wiretaps, the argument, october 24th if seems to be in chicago. >> there is no september 24th if wiretap. it is october 24th. it is not all wiretaps, just a phone call. >> the big one is extended and

extended. it is difficult. and asking the question, what is your take on it in terms of what you heard. >> it is a panel of three judges, one of the judges is seen to be generally pro defense, my reporting of the judge. the other judge -- that is right. and the other judge is perot prosecution. jon newman -- jon newman, i think, really looked to john newman as being the wild card and because he is very intellectually rigorous and they came away disappointed by the questions he asked.

>> awfully disappointed. >> sorry, next after that. >> i actually work for the 2002-2003 managing partners. just thinking of somebody who was at mackenzie and knowing a lot of colleagues there, the sense of betrayal of raja gupta is so acute is mind-boggling. i am sure they confirm the absolute key is the extent that ten years or eight years after that i still don't talk about who my clients are even though they don't exist any more. that is that point. the second point is the impact on south asians. a lot of consultants of indian origin, the chatter that goes across the network felt they would be set up for special scrutiny and field a pilot the

indian mafia at mackenzie and casts the disparaging shadow on them. it is not quite fair because it is long lasting but simply an impacted. >> that is the question. okay. right here in the second row please. >> my question is speak to interview raja for the book? >> i don't want to comment on sources. >> i am also perplexed if you were talking to his family members or cousins, did they know -- it is not putting him in a good light. >> it is. >> mainly giving you all this information.

>> a lot of the book is about various other people said that it is a very sympathetic portrayal of him. that is what they contributed to. >> one last thing, this wiretapped, this conversation he had after the board meeting at goldman, is that on tape or not? >> there is no wiretap. answering the previous gentleman's question what are was trying to say is this is a case where wiretaps have been used and there have been insider-trading cases in the 80s and the 90s, post millennium against caucasians and others and all of them have been brought using circumstantial evidence and the credit suisse

banker i mentioned where no benefit was shown, allegations that the man was tipping someone in pakistan placing trades, this man was sentenced to eight years in prison on circumstantial evidence. >> wasn't there one phone call? >> july 29, 2008. >> where he says he is complaining and give him $1 million and he should be more mindful and not paying attention. so wasn't that -- >> that was a wiretapped conversation but it was not part of the charges. the information -- >> the board meeting on

december 23rd. and in the hearings with exactly that. and a cellphone was tapped, but not a home phone. so they don't have it. >> fund manager at, the title of this book has been the rise of raja gupta, rather than the american believed. the table of contents, accepting new york times and all about richard gupta and not the american elite in general and titling books like this that

way, and casting a shadow of the transfer. >> all i was trying to do, anna eshoo gupta was an important member of the community and his journey was similar to the journey of many in the community, the rise, explosive rise in a short period of time and sometimes used one character to show what a community has done and certainly his rise was emblematic of the community. i actually think the book spends a lot of time on his rise. we can count pages later. >> the billionaires' apprentice, one person in that sense.

and that is how i understood it. in that quarter. >> my name is megan, and i am part of the way you spoke about, up and i have not read your book but takes a tremendous amount of courage and strength for us to be reflective and quebec at ourselves, and the success we had, it is important for our growth to recognize some of the things we have not done with good ethics and have not conducted ourselves the way in which we should. so thank you for that. my question related to that is

what insight or prospective would you offer to the next generation that is up and coming now to college and looking at their career path, what perspective would you offer? >> i actually think they have an advantage that certainly my parents' generation to the same generation, didn't have and they grew up in the united states, and they are assimilated and they have better appreciation of the rigidity of laws in the united states, the lack of gray, that is why this is a story,

there's also a story of two south asians. and one generation, one who was born in india came here when he was 2 and a different generation. and what we are seeing is the assimilated indians will be very successful. they don't need any advice from me. >> i attended the raja gupta trial last summer and was fascinated seeing a family,

whether it was acting, i would like a little more on a tipping point you brought up early in the conversation in the columbia speech you reference, seemed confused about boston next day, how to go higher, and wanting to hang out with henry, and the glamour set. at the same time wanting a little more money by raj rajaratnam, i don't understand how raj rajaratnam mcthe poll, that instead of wanting to be in the elite class of sophisticated

billionaires'. is it simply greed by analysis, attracting raja gupta like this gentleman here, any words from -- to say he actually had given the tips. and what i am even more interested in was wiretapping of raj rajaratnam begins because of speculation about his association with terrorism in sri lanka giving financial aid, in other words was raja gupta collateral damage for something else the government was

interested in uncovering? >> to your second question, suwannee certainly feels that he told me he wrote a letter in 2006 to the u.s. state department saying raj rajaratnam is funding the tigers and if you haven't read the book, was actually also the person who wrote the recommendation to raja gupta when he applied to harvard business school from mit and felt that he had sort of paved the way for the fed to start looking at raj rajaratnam. i think they were again sort of

the sausage was messier, sausagemaking is messier and there were two parallel investigations by two competing u.s. attorney offices of raj rajaratnam. one was the insider-trading investigation that was happening in manhattan u.s. attorney's office and the other was the investigation in the eastern district into the terrorism activities and manhattan u.s. attorney's office known as the sovereign district of new york eventually won out and the insider-trading case went forward and to your first question i think raj rajaratnam saw raj rajaratnam as someone who would see him make up for lost time in terms of wealth creation. raja talked to people about

wanting to, quote, monetize, what did raj rajaratnam need? he needed more money to manage, and so raja saw himself as possibly teaming up with him and making that into a lucrative venture. >> there is that point where you talk about between the two shifted, raj rajaratnam being very -- wanting to get plugged into those and he gets the offer, he asked raj rajaratnam what do you think and is asking for his advice. do you think the balance of power had shifted and he had the upper stage when it blew up? >> i do. i think when raja confessed, got

close to raj rajaratnam, i think he thought he came from a position of superiority. he was the one who had the great contacts, the remarkable rolodex, but by the time you get to that conversation, he is -- here is a man who his entire life had been giving advice to other corporations, advice to boards, he was the one who worked at the preeminent term in the financial service industry and here he was asking someone who had never actually succeeded for advice on whether he should take this job. of bit of a stunning turn of events. >> can you quote the back

please? >> my question is related from his college days, a graduated in the 60s or 70s. >> 1971. >> i read everywhere that raja comes from a humble background where he thought he had financial troubles. how could he afford to go to harvard business school? >> he got a scholarship. >> okay. >> related question is how did raja managed to:mackenzie assuming that once again they are not mackenzie at that time, was it primarily in the east, that mackenzie's board

recognized apple and gratuities outside the not so american european markets, someone who would grow out and make it. was that fellow -- was simply the best? >> mackenzie's partnership, raja's top job was elected by his partners so there is no board or anything appointing him. i think one of the reasons raja was elected to the top job was in the early 90s, again there was a generational splits at mackenzie, there was the old guard represented by people like her hands there and there was a new up and coming guard and raja was the perfect candidate, he was thoughtful, soft-spoken, non

confrontational and the new guard gravitated around him and jeff skilling who was at mackenzie at the time and was actually, have to laugh but he was -- a lot of correspondence with jeff scamming and he was a beautiful writer and very eloquent and very smart man and he sort of laid out the landscape that mackenzie, during the 80s and 90s and the tension between these two generations and raja came out of that fight successful. >> jerry veranda. i am asian but not indian. very obvious. your comment please on how the

forums in the basel iii banking reform would have affected the events and the future of those financial wizard one of thes, talking specifically about brought about -- thank you. >> i am not sure the transparency of basel iii would have affected these, not sure how that would have affected it to be honest with you. >> we talked a lot about raja gupta. i am curious to hear from you about raj rajaratnam. and his motivations and the dynamic of him and his family and raj rajaratnam is facing prosecution. what do you think is going to happen? >> raj rajaratnam to use his own words would say i am a rogue.

i am a rogue. and i think that is what he was. he liked to push the envelope wherever he could. he liked to play people. there is this episode in the relationship, at the end of 2006, arranged high interest loan, and part of a consortium to buy a bank in south india. the loan isn't paid back in time, and raj rajaratnam send an e-mail saying money doesn't arrive i am canceling all further lungees regarding the capital which is south asian

money manager raja was trying to build. raj rajaratnam hata keen sense of people, very street smart, and could do circles around the mackenzie men. and taking a very different approach to his brother, and charges of insider trading, trying to work out a plea with the u.s. attorney's office. i suspected he does plead guilty he will plead guilty and not cooperate. if he was to cooperate he would have to give the prosecutor

information about his brothers and there is still one brother they would be interested in building a case against. >> we will take a last question from that gentleman and we will be reading off of them disclosing books. we will take a last question. >> it might be just a comment but the one comment was first of all i never considered gupta indian. i never thought about it and was interested in the case. a lot of people that i know never really -- i am not an indian and i didn't discuss this with any indians. i wonder whether maybe it is just indians, my parents are nigerian and i work in financial

crime compliance. i am always -- i wonder if it is -- i wonder if it is this in the in thing to, where it is in the like another comment that i had was i wonder if this was -- the stereotypes -- they are hard working and i wonder if -- i don't want to save progress. i am not trying to be funny. this is just from an outsider's point of view. i wonder -- listening to everybody talk about it. and a very good stereotyped

attached to you and here it is just that case. 5 don't know if michael who just got indicted is an indian. this is the second one. >> i don't know whether you have any disclosed at this point. anita raghavan is available to sign copies of her book if you're interested in purchasing it. thank you so much. [applause] [inaudible conversations] >> what are you reading this summer? booktv wants to know. >> two books. the first by pulitzer

prize-winning author and investigative journalist smith entitled to who stole america, it is a real eye opener. anyone that wants to really understand america, how we got to where we are today, why the average american is struggling away they are, i think this is one of the most thoughtful and as i said i opening reads at least for me in a long time and some of it, i have listened to right before i admired a great deal. i would probably recommend the book. as a policymaker, what policies, what can we learn from the policies in the last 30 to 40 years that may have contributed to this and where do we go from

here. it is relevant to many others as well. the second book i have read is a rather small one. i think really wonderfully inclusive and instructive and it is called every ancient, ever new. it is written by archbishop john quinn, one of the great american bishops and intellectuals. and the structure of the catholic church and how best to reform them, and some of it is a very large bureaucracy and very often asked why is it the way it is, how can we do this better, all institutions can and should go through reforms so this is a

very thoughtful book, in addition to many other books he has written and published and he is someone that i admire a great deal. .. >> you welcomeba